Is Preaching Still Needed in the Church with Dr. Nick Gatzke

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, hosts Rob and Jason talk with Dr. Nick Gatzke of Old North Church in Canfield, Ohio. They discuss various aspects of preaching and ministry, including the importance of volunteerism, navigating difficult conversations, the role of power and influence in pastoral leadership, and the definition of good preaching. They emphasize the need for effective communication, learning from other preachers, and the centrality of preaching in Protestant worship. The conversation also touches on the challenges of accountability in a celebrity-driven culture and the importance of training the next generation of preachers.

Find out more about Dr. Nick Gatzke's preaching ministry at A Better Word

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk Project. The Church Talk, I'm gonna start over, I'm sorry. It's been one of those mornings. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason. We're so glad that you would join us again today. We've got some, this is kind of special. I hardly know how to even sit here and talk into this microphone, because it's so much nicer than anything we've ever used, Rob. I don't know, how you doing today?

Rob Paterson (00:25)

I agree, usually I have to kind of camp my head all around when we're recording in person using our equipment. And if you get it just perfect, it sounds okay, but it's not perfect in my ears. And being here in Gatsky Studios.

Jason Allison (00:39)

It's just like magical. Yes, we are recording together in person up at Old North Church in Canfield, Ohio. Our converged biennial meeting, gathering, the United Leadership Gathering happens today. so we're up here and Old North is graciously hosting the conference and they're doing an amazing job. I am blown away and I Nick's in the room and we'll...

bring him in here in a second, but their staff has been amazing and they've been just a joy to work with. So it's been a lot of fun. And so if you're a pastor out there, make sure your people know how to serve because man, it can bless people in so many ways. And I was at dinner last night with Mary Ann Sibley and she trains people on volunteerism and how to build that. And there's something about getting that into the heartbeat of a church that serving is not you don't serve just to get a job done.

it's actually part of the discipleship journey and understanding how that, it was just so much fun, you know, talking with her and some of the other guys sitting around the table. But we're really glad that you would join us. And, you know, we've got Nick, Nick Gatsky here, Dr. Nick Gatsky. You earned it. You deserve the two little letters right in front. So Nick is the lead pastor at Old North Church here in Camfield, Ohio.

yeah, that's

Nick Gatzke (01:53)

think it's senior pastor. I don't know.

Jason Allison (01:54)

That sounds about right. Yes, but uh and Nick I didn't like you know do a deep dive in into the research, but I know you you is it a PhD or a doctorate? Yeah, a PhD in preaching right? Homiletics. and where was it from?

Nick Gatzke (02:08)

from the London School of Theology. It was a great experience. I'd go back and do it again if I could. It was hard, but it was amazing.

Jason Allison (02:10)

I just like hearing that.

Yeah, well.

Rob Paterson (02:17)

Speak

with a British accent now.

Jason Allison (02:20)

Yeah, that's probably good. Americans trying to do can't fake it. No, no. Yeah, I can see that.

Rob Paterson (02:26)

born in England and my dad in Scotland. you know.

Nick Gatzke (02:29)

So you probably

can, because you grew up hearing it all the time.

Rob Paterson (02:32)

By the time I got there, you know, they were in Canada and it was long.

Jason Allison (02:36)

Now he just says a boot a lot. Yeah, I don't know.

Rob Paterson (02:39)

Scottish Brogue

is a thing, right? yeah. dad, I remember as a kid he taught me this. The bra brich, moon lich, nich, the nich. Which actually in Scottish Brogue means it's a broad, bright, moonlight night tonight. I don't know how you would like, you know, come up with that from just those... Can you... No.

Jason Allison (02:57)

I think we can just shut it down right now. Everybody has learned everything they're gonna learn. Well, so one of things I wanted to start today, Nick, just asking you, thank you, by the way, so much for taking some time this morning and letting us, I don't know, mooch on your nice studio that you use, because I know you guys have a daily radio show and so forth in the area, which apparently is...

probably going to get bigger beyond just the regional thing and that's really, really cool. I'm excited for you. Tell me something like what, you're a pastor of a larger church, by all measures from the outside, pretty successful dude, and you got great hair. I mean, it really is. What is God teaching you? Like right now, what do you, what's happening in your soul?

Nick Gatzke (03:36)

Yeah, you know, we in the last couple of weeks, we've had a number of hard things happen in our church, including a suicide with a young man, including some marriage crises, including some other personal issues with people who are really core to our ministry. And, you know, a couple of things I think the Lord is showing me. Number one, in some sense, it's so obvious that, you know, you're a little embarrassed that God is teaching

me this but God reminds us of things again and again and again right and that is when you're going through hard things with people ministry is about God and for people

Jason Allison (04:01)

Absolutely.

Hmm.

Nick Gatzke (04:10)

And so when you're going through hard things with people, we all have an instinct in some way of either when things get difficult or there's conflict to shy away or to lean in. And the importance of leaning in to hard things, to be alongside of people, to have hard conversations, to willing to sit with someone through tears, to talk to somebody very clearly and lovingly, but directly.

Right in the midst of conflict is so important and God honors that and people even though it makes them uncomfortable in the moment They appreciate it immensely on the back end, right? they come through. Yeah, so I've had have a lot of those conversations over the last couple of hours on the phone hours in my office with the tissue box you know next to the chair and The Lord is using that Wow. And so you get to the end of it and somebody said to me yesterday, know, how you feeling? Have you ever had

time in your whole ministry that's been as intense as these couple weeks and well, maybe not many. Yeah, if I have yeah, well, how you feeling? said, well, I'm simultaneously tired because the emotional output is significant but also Invigorated because this is why we're here. Yeah, this is the crossroads of gospel work. And so God's teaching me that I think secondly One of the things that the Lord is teaching me is we just finished a series

This this last spring in the book of Revelation Yeah, first time I ever preached through the entire book. I've preached passages before but we went through soup to nuts Wow, and You know the dynamic of spiritual warfare is thrown around a lot And anytime some people it's anytime anything hard happens

Jason Allison (05:31)

fun.

Nick Gatzke (05:46)

Maybe it's just hard because it's hard or maybe it's hard because you made a mistake. There's a lot of different or maybe it's hard because the Lord is refining you. But I think we've seen the dynamic of the dragon trying to.

put out to stamp out the people of God with all of his rage, says in Revelation 12, woe to those who are on the earth for the dragon comes in anger. And I think we've seen that in a certain way. And to be able to, as a leader, to be able to step back and identify the playing field and say, okay, we're in the middle of a massive battle right now. You better be carrying your sword. And what does that look like?

looks like obedience, looks like dependence upon God in prayer, it looks like doing the next right thing. That's been, I think, really helpful.

Jason Allison (06:28)

That's really good.

I mean, I really appreciate you sharing that. That was really good. Thanks, bro.

Rob Paterson (06:33)

And you know, I mean, we could and we will have a conversation about a topic here. But I mean, for people listening, you know, if you're a ministry person, whether you're like, you know, employed at a church or just a high level volunteer doesn't matter.

man, these things are so important, right? That we are connected with God and he is the source of these things because I don't know about you guys, but I have moments like that, Nick, where it just seems like the enemy is present and active in many, ways. And if I'm trying to do that in my own strength, I'm in deep

Jason Allison (07:07)

Well, and it's good to hear that, you the senior pastor of a larger church, you wrestle with the same thing that every pastor everywhere does. You know, it's not new and it's the same struggle of the joy of being with people and the pain of being with people and dealing with a world that the enemy is active in.

Nick Gatzke (07:26)

don't get that if you are so distant from your people. The shepherd needs to smell like the sheep. No matter what size the church is. And there's this perception that pastors of big churches, all they do is preach and lead meetings and devise strategy and things like that. And I would just say, and I would encourage people, we say to our young guys all the time, pastoring large churches is not that different than pastoring small churches.

Jason Allison (07:34)

Right.

Nick Gatzke (07:53)

There's different levels of responsibility and complexity, at the core the job is the same.

Jason Allison (07:59)

Yeah, yeah. heard Glenn Pacquiam was being interviewed or something and he basically was saying there's power that we see just in our jobs and the authority, right? And when pastors have power but they don't have proximity.

then the power goes to their head. it can, because whenever you separate yourself from the people, and I say over which you have power, but you know what I mean, it's more influence, really. The more you're separated from them, the more it can cause problems. And that's where, like you said, pastoring a church of 50, 500,000, 5,000, whatever, if you aren't with people, then you're gonna get, you're just gonna get separated and it's not gonna be good.

Nick Gatzke (08:39)

think power is an important distinction because there is a difference between power and influence and how you wield those things and if as a minister you start to engage in the game of power dynamics instead of spiritual influence then you have to ask the question what's the motivation behind this motivation is it for me or is it for the people that I'm supposed to be here to serve

Jason Allison (09:07)

That's really good.

Rob Paterson (09:09)

So Nick,

we have never had a doctor of hemolytics on the podcast in...

You know, our 150 episodes. this is kind of a unique milestone moment here. Um, so I'd love to ask, cause you know, it's Jason and I, even on our drive over here this morning, we're joking around about how sometimes in the church, you know, people say things, well, is it biblical? And it's like, uh, I saw a quote yesterday where someone said, well, you know, like that's a tough question because like dashing a head's baby on the rocks is technically biblical. The question more as a Christ like, but you know, from your vantage point as someone who has spent so

much time, you know, kind of studying and learning about kind of the homiletical process and all that stuff. I mean, what would you say, you know, is good preaching? How would you define that?

Nick Gatzke (09:57)

good preaching is

the communication of biblical truth that happens through the transmission of the preacher by the power of the Holy Spirit to the specific audience or congregation that they're engaging in. It's that simple in some ways. And there's nuances about different styles of preaching and different philosophies of preaching and different theological convictions behind preaching, but at its core, it's the communication of biblical truth by the power of the Holy Spirit applied to people.

Rob Paterson (10:27)

So just to build on this, kind of a follow-up, so would you say, because you kind of alluded to it, and it's so funny to me, sometimes people are like, well, solid biblical, and then people mean all kinds of different things. And a lot of times it's just the thing that I grew up with and I'm comfortable with, and anything that's not what that one guy did for 30 years at my home church seems like foreign and strange. So from your vantage point, if people are doing kind of those things, communicating,

Nick Gatzke (10:39)

Absolutely.

Rob Paterson (10:54)

biblical truth, to a group of people by the power of Holy Spirit, do you think the different philosophies and styles and approaches are okay?

Nick Gatzke (11:07)

Yeah,

I mean, I think that each have certain strengths and liabilities for sure. mean, would I say that somebody who's communicating biblical truth to their congregation is OK? Yeah, there's levels of clarity. There's a spectrum of depth and faithfulness and application and things like that that I think are more helpful.

Jason Allison (11:28)

Yeah.

Nick Gatzke (11:29)

than others. And for me, you know, I'm thoroughly convinced that expository preaching is, I think, is the best way. And I have brothers that might disagree with me on that. And we can still be great friends and good Christian brothers, and I'll still encourage them in their church.

Jason Allison (11:43)

We'll even let you on the podcast.

Nick Gatzke (11:45)

And for me what you know what that means expository preaching means the word exposter means to expose right and so you're exposing the meaning of a biblical text to the audience that you're engaging in and so

Rob Paterson (11:47)

Thank

Nick Gatzke (12:03)

Very simple a lot that word is thrown around a lot a lot of people mean different things for me It's the main idea of my sermon is the main idea of this biblical text. Yeah, and it can be distilled as simply as that

Jason Allison (12:16)

Yeah, no, that's good. Well, I mean, maybe you've already answered this, but maybe push in a little more. What is good preaching? And maybe here's where I'm thinking. On any given Sunday, when you get up to preach, you stand up and you stand before your congregation and you expose them to God's truth, right? What makes a message, how do you know that it was a good message versus, wow, that one was a dud.

Nick Gatzke (12:39)

Yeah,

yeah. There's levels, right? And so I think that at the very core, the message can be faithful. And that doesn't mean that's still a great sermon.

Jason Allison (12:50)

Yeah.

Nick Gatzke (12:52)

Yes,

we've all heard that. yeah We've all preached that or there's we at our church. We always we kind of have the internal language We rate our sermons up baseball scores. Okay. Yeah, so Hey, what did you think? What do you what do you think today? That was a double? Yeah, that was a single. Yeah, you know, man, you really crushed it Yeah Or it was a bunch single. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you got to first base it was faithful but

Jason Allison (12:55)

Right, right.

Okay.

Are you whiffed? Yeah, I'm whiffed.

It wasn't all that pretty.

Nick Gatzke (13:18)

And I think as preachers we one of the hardest thing for preachers is to be humble enough to to hear feedback

And why is that? Because we pour our heart and soul into this task week after week. And nobody knows what Sunday, nobody knows what the life of a senior pastor is like other than another senior pastor. Absolutely. preaching pastor. Sunday is always coming. It's always coming. You finish on Sunday afternoon and you are thinking about next Sunday already. And so, you know, for me, I think a faithful sermon has the main idea, communication,

the main idea of a biblical text. But then beyond that, of course we want to be persuasive, we want to be compelling, we want to have a delivery style that helps people to receive, not pushes people away or builds up a wall. Preaching is not a lecture and we can talk about that more if you want to. And you know some of the greatest heresy that happens in preaching is in application. What does this actually mean for me?

I know you just gave me a great theological lecture or you gave me a great historical lecture on the context of what Paul was going through when he was engaging the church at Corinth and all the different things that that church was dealing with so I don't live in Corinth, you know and That is part of good preaching, right?

Jason Allison (14:32)

Exactly.

Thanks

Rob Paterson (14:38)

that and I think even

Simple things, you know, because so many times I mean every pastor on the planet has heard someone say something like, know, I want more depth or you know, I'm not being fed or you know, whatever, whatever those terms are. But man, like in a lot of contexts, especially, you know, maybe you have a congregation that isn't educated or doesn't have a lot of theological foundation. You know, if you start giving them like all of those biblical details and you start putting Greek and Hebrew words

up on and transliterated and giving the definition and talking about your two hours worth of word studies that week or whatever, know, like people's eyes are going to glaze over and that's not, you can be super faithful to the word, but if the word doesn't actually land on the other end, there's a breakdown and a problem there. So it's got to be a little bit of both and, and some of that's contextual, right? Like understanding the people you're talking to.

Nick Gatzke (15:31)

always

have to know who you're talking to and that is going to help shape the nature of a sermon. You know, if I ever get a speaking invitation to preach at another place, whether it's another church or a conference, something like that, my first question is never, what do want me to preach on? My first question is always, who am I talking to? Because that helps, that doesn't change the meaning of the text. It doesn't change the meaning even necessarily of the way

text moves or the argument that's being built in a text or to some way it'll change the nature of a persuasion but it will certainly change the way I communicate those things.

Jason Allison (16:10)

That's one thing I've found to be the biggest leap for me now that I've gone from weekly preaching to the same group of people to preaching at various churches, you know, all over the place now is that how quickly I have to get to know that audience. And my personality is, and my preaching style is more of a conversational feel. so getting to know my audience is what helps me become effective in communicating to them. And so that's a...

That's an art, I think, that you have to cultivate and it takes time.

Nick Gatzke (16:40)

takes time and it's a skill. It's a skill that can be developed over time. How do I ask the right questions to understand who these people are and what they need? How do I not step on the senior pastor's toe? Or create, I mean it's the worst thing for a visiting preacher to do is blow in, blow up.

Jason Allison (16:51)

Right, right, right, right.

and

then blow out. I agree. I agree.

Rob Paterson (17:01)

when you say that I had a district leader one time coming to preach at my church he he would visit every year but you know he wasn't he just didn't fit with our congregation so and so my leaders were like we need to let him preach so one year I kind of acquiesced and we're like okay we're gonna and I'm not like

you know, kind of a pulpit hog. that's, that wasn't the issue. Right. And so he's like, Hey, what do you me to talk about? And he gave me a list of four or five possibilities. And so in, in one of them, he said, I could talk about stewardship if you want, cause a lot of times that's easier for someone outside. And I'm like, sure. Yeah, let's go with that. So he did, but he started the message by literally saying, I was asking Rob what he wanted me to ⁓ completely, you know, whiffed on all of

Nick Gatzke (17:41)

Ha ha!

through you under

the bus or out of it.

Rob Paterson (17:45)

And I'm just like, this is why. This guy was really smart in some ways, but clueless.

Jason Allison (17:50)

Yeah.

Nick Gatzke (17:50)

And you know what? Pastors know their people. Good pastors know their people. so visiting preachers can be phenomenally gifted and really encouraging, especially just for the sake of variety and to hear maybe a little bit of perspective on something. But nothing is going to replace the weekend and week out ministry of a pastor.

Jason Allison (18:10)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Rob Paterson (18:12)

So Nick, that leads me to a question other than Jason and I, because that would be embarrassing.

Nick Gatzke (18:16)

You and Jason.

Jason Allison (18:18)

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (18:21)

is your favorite current preacher who's a historic preacher yeah that you wish you could have heard live yeah know and then maybe who's someone you listen to occasionally because they stretch you and and you're thinking about preaching

Nick Gatzke (18:33)

Yeah, great questions. mean, I would say even though now that he's at, you know, he's nearing the end of his career, both these guys are nearing the end of their careers, two of the preachers that I've enjoyed listening to the most over the years are John Piper and Alistair Begg.

Jason Allison (18:48)

Right, exactly. ⁓

Nick Gatzke (18:49)

you know, there's the

kind of the joke with Alistair as well. Alistair is Alistair because of the accent. was like, no, Alistair is Alistair because he's an awesome preacher. Yeah. And both of the what both of those guys display, I think for me is a level. Piper has a level of passion for the Lord that just sort of oozes out of his pores. He's a totally different personality than me, than you guys. Right. Yes. You see, you can't.

You can't mirror something like that you have it or you don't yeah and That passion for the Lord along with a precision for what the Bible says I think has taught me a lot over the years and has ministered to me phenomenally similarly Alistair Alistair has this incredible ability to Weave through serious things and then inject like little doses of humor along the way to just set you at ease a little

bit and then boom he comes and hits you with the left hook across the face and you're like whoa I didn't see that coming yeah but I'd like another one yeah so those two those two guys have been phenomenally used by the Lord of course to millions of people over the years including me and you learn a lot as you listen to other preachers in that way

Jason Allison (19:49)

Yes.

Nick Gatzke (20:01)

I historically, know, one of the people I love to read sermons from and it's not, maybe it's a bit cliche, but I would love to hear Spurgeon. I mean, to be able to fill Metropolitan Tabernacle in London with 5,000 people to preach without a microphone in that context. And sometimes I read a Spurgeon sermon and I'm like.

Jason Allison (20:10)

Yep.

Right. Right.

Nick Gatzke (20:28)

man, I don't even know how you got there to what you're saying right now. You're giving this weird analogy or something like that. And other times I read it, it's like, whoa, I never saw that.

Jason Allison (20:39)

Hmm.

Nick Gatzke (20:40)

And that was so helpful the way you said that in just like a pithy sentence or two. So I would have loved to hear Spurgeon preach. I think some of the Puritans too, know, totally different style, totally different day. know, Jonathan Edwards got fired from his first church. You know, and we read guys, some of these guys like this and say, well, they were the celebrity preachers of their day. Well.

No, they weren't. Some of their own churches didn't even like them that much. But history looks back and says, wow, Lord, you see them amazingly.

Jason Allison (21:06)

I've heard it and I mean, I'm no student of preaching history like you are, but you know, Jonathan Edwards, even though he, you know, centers in the hands of an angry God, you know, I've been told he basically read his messages monotone and it wasn't, you know, he wasn't fiery, even though the content was often fiery. And that's just interesting to me to think that there are different ways of presenting, but if the content's solid, you know,

Nick Gatzke (21:32)

last

little test.

Rob Paterson (21:33)

What you said in the beginning Nick like preaching is like it's in the power of the Holy Spirit, right? Right if if you and I can sort of evoke an emotional response Matt might be cool in the moment, but it's not gonna last where if the spirit moves the the chance of changes exponentially

Nick Gatzke (21:49)

The other one was George Whitfield. It's the opposite of something that he preached, you know, something like on average 10 times a week or something. And so I think about it. OK, my sermon preparation is 15 hours, 20 hours some weeks. He was preaching 10 times a week and very often having looked at the text.

Jason Allison (21:53)

Right, right, right.

I know, crazy.

Nick Gatzke (22:15)

for an hour, two hours, right. And then standing up and almost extemporaneously preaching away with tremendous precision and eloquence.

to the point where People would come from all over the place just to hear him Yeah, part of that was because of his natural giftedness to be sure but to your point Rob part of it was because the Holy Spirit chose to use that man you need That moment right to those people rights, right and that's so important to those people

Jason Allison (22:35)

in that moment.

Who do you listen to that stretches you? You don't even have to agree with them. You know, like I'm not saying, but I know, go ahead, you answer.

Nick Gatzke (22:49)

Yeah, you know, over the years I have really enjoyed and been stretched by listening to some of our African American brothers. think Robert Smith was a long time pastor and preaching professor at Beeson Divinity School. And whenever I listen to to Robert preach, I think about number one, how different the the cultural style of African American preaching is to to the style of our church.

But number two, what are things that I can take away and learn here? Not trying to be an African American preacher because I'm not one and our culture isn't that. But he still does some things brilliantly by way of insight into the text and by way of homiletical or by way of delivery that we can learn from. you, E.K. Bailey was another famous African American preacher. And sometimes I listen to some of the sermons and I'm just like,

I could never do that, but that was amazing. what a snuggles I can take away from it.

Jason Allison (23:44)

I enjoy, you you gotta be careful saying this, but I enjoy stand-up comedians. Because I feel like that is the closest parallel to preaching, you know, from a very human perspective. But I mean, you know, one person with a mic in front of an audience. you know, because my whole thing was always if you don't have any good content, have good props. That got me through a few of those weeks that were like bunt singles. ⁓

Nick Gatzke (23:49)

Yep.

You

But at least

you know they were button-syncing.

Jason Allison (24:10)

That's That's

right. That's right. No, no, no,

Nick Gatzke (24:16)

Stand-up

comedians are brilliant. People don't realize you have to have a really high social intelligence to be a good stand-up comedian. And similarly, along those same lines, somebody that I listened to for years and still do from time to time. Are you guys familiar with Garrison Keillor?

Jason Allison (24:31)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Gatzke (24:34)

find somebody who's a good storyteller. Yes. And listen to the way that they use words to communicate the point. Yeah. Garrison Keillor was a genius at taking multiple storylines. Yeah. Helping you feel along the way the points of tension, the points of release, and then taking those storylines and weaving them together all into a single sort of thing to take away. Yeah. If you can find a good storyteller,

and listen to them again and again and again you will become a better preacher and then employ that in your everyday conversation I had lunch with guy yesterday never studied a lick of preaching in his life phenomenal storyteller I got to the end of the conversation I said man you're a really good storyteller it was about his conversion or his kids or about his health problems or whatever and he goes you think so you're a great storyteller and he goes well tell that to my wife she just told me to shut up

Jason Allison (25:25)

⁓

Rob Paterson (25:28)

again.

Jason Allison (25:28)

Well, so let me shift gears slightly here. In America today and really in the last 500 years of the church, preaching in the Protestant church especially has become a very central part of our weekly service, you know, church experience. As you think about that, how much of that is cultural?

you know, contextual to the Protestant Reformation, et cetera. And how much of that is was a biblical move, you know, like and biblical, like Rob was saying, in a positive. Yeah, in a positive sense, like it's moving more towards a, you know, a way of seeing how to gather, how to do things that seem more in line with what Jesus would have wanted. I'm just curious your thoughts.

Nick Gatzke (26:11)

love that question because it is a biblical dynamic. There is a cultural dynamic and there's a theological conviction. And so one of the main differences between Protestants and Catholics, for example, is what is the main way that God works through the local body of believers on any given Sunday? The Catholics would say through the Mass or through the Eucharist. the Lord gives grace through the taking of the Lord's Supper.

Protestants would say that the primary way is through the word at least in this cultural context And others in history would say through prayer And so we don't we see no biblical mandate of how long your sermon should be Think about how long should your sermon be well as long as you can keep the room for some people

Jason Allison (26:49)

I know. I know.

Or

as long as it takes to get the point across.

Nick Gatzke (26:57)

15

minute preacher, some people are 20 minute preachers, some people are 40 minute preachers. Which one are you Rob? You're an hour preacher? Yeah, and so, but the theological conviction for Protestants, especially since the Reformation, is that God works through the Word. That this is a Word work.

Jason Allison (27:05)

Keep going.

Nick Gatzke (27:19)

not independent of the Holy Spirit, but the same Holy Spirit who inspired the Word is the same Holy Spirit that transforms people's lives. And so why is preaching central in the Protestant tradition? It's central because we believe that's how God speaks, that's how God transforms, that's how God nourishes, that's how God equips, right? Those types of dynamics. And do we as Protestants sometimes

do that at the expensive other things that are also very important i think i you're going to be awesome many of our church services

don't have enough prayer. Some of our church services only celebrate the ordinances once a year, twice a year, four times a year. I mean, if it was up to me, we would be living in a culture where we could have a two hour church service every Sunday and we could have a long time of preaching, a long time of prayer and take the Lord's Supper every Sunday. That would be like my idea, but that's not the work we live in right now. I understand that. And so I think that

Jason Allison (28:11)

You

Nick Gatzke (28:16)

to kind of the point of the question. We have a theological conviction that also is met with a cultural reality and pastors have to make decisions, pastors and churches have to make decisions about how those priorities are measured in time.

Jason Allison (28:30)

Do

feel like there's any kind of shift going on in our current culture? culture in general, but then even within the Protestant tradition, which we're obviously a part of, that the preaching event is becoming either more or less central. And I'm not saying that the word is more or less, but the preaching of the word is more or less. And what are your thoughts on that?

Nick Gatzke (28:53)

Yeah, I think we live in a very interesting cultural moment and every culture says this. It's never been like it is right now. Which is true and it's never be that way again. But I think that we live in an interesting cultural moment where there is an ongoing and growing mistrust of authority. Where there is a.

Jason Allison (28:58)

I'm sure.

That is true.

Nick Gatzke (29:18)

maybe a reaction against, especially for the younger generation, against super highly produced experiences that you hear things like, want sincerity and authenticity. We don't want all the flash and bang because that's not as important to us. And I think in that you could look at that in a couple of ways. You could look at that and say,

We should actually spend less time in an authoritative dynamic with the word because that's not what they want. Right.

Or I would argue we should say, no, that's precisely what we need. That there is an authority that stands above us and it is God. And our expression of dependence upon that authority, I think comes through our understanding and recognition of his word. That's good. So for me, I think preaching still should be central. And how that works its way out with the amount of time is, you know,

strategic decision more than a pragmatic decision more than anything else but yes I think the word still should stay central and the chief expression of that is in preaching moment that's for the local gathering

Rob Paterson (30:28)

Yeah, that's so good. You were saying earlier when I asked about, you know, different styles and approaches to preaching and you're like, Hey, every one of them has some inherent strengths and weaknesses. And I wondered Nick, what you would say, you know, as we think about sort of the centrality of preaching in our culture, you know, how that maybe one of the negatives is how it's contributed to this idea of like the celebrity preacher. and, know, and over time, so many of those celebrity preachers have sort of gone

ways that has created some of that mistrust. you know I mean is that just one of those things that yeah as long as preaching is gonna be central we're gonna have some of that and it's just part of the deal or I mean what would you say to that?

Nick Gatzke (30:57)

breaking, you know.

Yeah, well, the first thing I say is I don't know that it's unique to just preaching being central. I think that there have been leaders and highly gifted individuals throughout history who have gone sideways in all kinds of ways, not just preachers and not uniquely preachers. And in one way, that is the struggle that I think everybody has when they have a charge and an authority over others.

is how am going to do this in a godly way that doesn't allow me to creep into some self-serving motives or a lack of accountability that creates a bubble and I can just excuse my own sin. I think that's the crux of the issue more than preaching being central. Now, because we live in a multimedia environment where you can watch a hundred preachers this afternoon if you want to

and some phenomenally gifted people out there. The Lord has gifted a number of people. And just because those gifts are displayed on public doesn't mean that they're always godly or used with godly motivation. And that's where I do think for as much as we have a dynamic where we all benefit from the access to massive information, and I can listen to a preacher from England, India, Japan, or America this afternoon if I want to. And I can even have it translated for me online.

Preaching is for the local church primarily first and foremost. It's not for the internet first and foremost. It's not for the radio. Right. Even though we're on the radio. It's not ski student. It's for the local church. And at the end of the day.

Jason Allison (32:33)

Right, right.

Nick Gatzke (32:41)

every preacher in a healthy church structure is going to have people around them and accountability mechanisms around there in the plurality of elders to say, if I'm going sideways, I need you to grab me by the nape of the neck and say, knock it off. This is not what God would call us to do and not God will call you to lead. And sadly, we've seen a lack of that that has contributed to the downfall of our brothers. And every single time I read another one,

Jason Allison (33:08)

It's heartbreaking.

And I do, you're spot on with the accountability side of it because the nature of, there are going to be people who are just gifted speakers. I mean, that's just the, you know, there's gonna, and they're just, there always have been right now because of the way the world works and the internet and all those things to get way more popular than, you know, even a Spurgeon or a Moody would have been in their day is just gonna happen. I mean, because it's out there. And so it's easy for that to quickly go to your head.

and say, look how many people listen to me. I must be good.

Nick Gatzke (33:39)

It's self validation. I had a young guy a number of years ago that was talking about his desires for ministry and I said, what kind of church do you think you want to pastor? Now that can be interpreted in other words.

Jason Allison (33:50)

yeah.

Nick Gatzke (33:51)

and the first thing out of his mouth, never been to the pastor in his life, I wanna pastor a church of at least 700 people. I said, why 700 people? And he kind of hemmed and hawed around it and gave a couple of weak answers. And at the end of the day, it was pride. He wanted to have influence over a lot of people, not a little people. And if that's the motivation for preaching, you're in the wrong business, man. Go do something else. You have to wanna do this

because you believe that God does this for the good of others and if he uses you along the way, well that's amazing. But it's not for you to be built up as some kind of figure or have some kind of reputation. Wrong motivation for being in ministry.

Jason Allison (34:37)

That kind

of brings me to the question I wanted to wrap up with, and we could talk preaching for hours if we wanted, but. I feel like we're just going. I know, I know. We got a conference that we got to do here in a little bit. And I'm asking you this, and it's kind of a softball question because I already know some of the answer to it, but how are you training up the next generation of preachers, of teachers in the church? And maybe with that, how could

our listeners begin to understand that and possibly implement something, not what you're doing, because you're doing what you do. how would you talk to that?

Nick Gatzke (35:15)

Yeah, very simply, you know, at our church, we have an apprenticeship program, which really helps to provide a vehicle or mechanism for that. But we also work with people that are not in that apprenticeship program. That's our elders. We have a lot of college students right now that are that they want to serve the Lord and they want to explore this idea of teaching the Bible and preaching the Bible.

And so part of that is to help them understand the very basics of what it means to study the Bible. sounds elementary, but it's true. If the main idea of a sermon is supposed to be the main idea of the text, how do you get to the main idea of a text? It's not just read and say whatever feels good to me today or whatever convicts me today.

Rob Paterson (35:52)

read the heading above

the text and you know that's the main idea.

Nick Gatzke (35:54)

Not inspired.

Yeah, and so it starts at the very ground level of how do you study the Bible? How do you handle the Bible? And then secondly, at our church what we do is multiple times a year.

I will do little trainings with some of our younger folks on, how do you take this and formulate it into a talk, a classroom session or a sermon? What are some of the structural things that you can do to communicate this well? What are the key components of how a sermon moves and those sorts of things? And then you have to find opportunities for them to actually teach or preach. And thankfully we have a church where if one of

our 24 year old young guy stands up and preaches on a Sunday they are cheering for him they're not evaluating him they're not judging him and then comes the then comes the painful thing

Jason Allison (36:47)

Monday morning.

Nick Gatzke (36:48)

They, I usually don't do it on Monday because it's too soon. But sometime in the next week or so, they're gonna come and they're gonna sit in my office with me and we're gonna watch it together. And I'm gonna hit pause at multiple points and I'm gonna ask questions and I'm gonna say, hey, what did you think about that? Or hey, this is what you could have done to make that land a little bit differently. And that sort of one-on-one coaching or two-on-one coaching, if you wanna be a better preacher, you have to be able to take feedback.

And that weeds people, some people out right away because their pride won't let them get that feedback. for other people, for the teachable ones, the ones that say, yep, I don't have it all together, the growth is phenomenal.

Jason Allison (37:25)

Yeah,

I know as I was learning to preach that was the hardest part and it doesn't get easier.

Nick Gatzke (37:31)

Yeah, it doesn't in some ways. In other ways, mean, every single Sunday, I will find one or two trusted voices in our congregation. We have two services on Sunday. And I'll say, what do I need to do different in the second service? what they tell me, I listen to. Now, I might not always agree. And I might do it or I might not do it. But I need to hear it. I need to have people in my life that say, that didn't hit the way that you thought it was going to hit.

Rob Paterson (37:58)

So hey, just I thought might make a fun way just to end. Yeah, each of us maybe could give our favorite book on preaching. You know, if someone's like, I'd like to learn more about this. Is there a book you guys would recommend? I got one. All right. So my favorite and it's very, very technical, but it's a homiletic moves and structures by David G. Buttrick.

Nick Gatzke (38:11)

Go first.

yeah.

Jason Allison (38:19)

Yeah, mine's totally the opposite. Dennis Kinlaw from Asbury wrote a book called Preaching in the Spirit. actually on the hall where I looked when I went to Asbury, his grandson was next door to me and I got to meet him a couple of times. And yeah, just there's something about that preaching in the spirit and the fact that if the pastor is not connected with Jesus, you're just making a lot. You're just blowing a lot of hot air at that point.

Nick Gatzke (38:43)

For me, would say, think Haddon Robinson's biblical preaching, the classic. And especially for somebody who's never preached before or who's just learning sermon structure, especially, which is really hard to figure out. How do I structure a message in a way that will land to people?

Rob Paterson (39:01)

It's alliterated.

Nick Gatzke (39:03)

Maybe sometimes, but not always. yeah, Hadam Ram's biblical preaching is classic. It's trained many great preachers over the years.

Jason Allison (39:11)

Well, Nick, thank you for the time.

sharing some of your thoughts and wisdom. really do appreciate it. And I know our listeners do. so to our listeners, we want to say thank you for listening and do us a favor and like and subscribe and share the podcast that always helps us. don't we don't spend money on advertising, so we kind of need you to actually share it if you want anyone else to ever listen to it. And we do thank you for listening each week. And we care deeply about you and we would love to hear from you. Any questions you might have, topics maybe

you would like us to talk about or just things going on in your church that you would like to get some input on or get some outside observation going on. We would love to serve you in any way that we can. So we wish you the best. an absolutely amazing week and we'll talk to you next week.