A Redemptive Response to Politics & Protests

In this episode, Jason Allison and Rob Paterson discuss the challenges of navigating division within ministry, particularly in light of recent protests and political engagement. They explore the role of pastors in addressing these issues, the impact of media representation on public perception, and the importance of local engagement in community action. The conversation emphasizes the need for a redemptive response to political and social issues, particularly regarding immigration, while balancing faith and politics. Ultimately, they call for love and service to all individuals, regardless of their background or beliefs.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Conversation
00:57 Navigating Division in Ministry
04:02 Protests and Political Engagement
07:34 The Challenge of Bridging Perspectives
11:11 The Role of the Church in Political Discourse
17:36 Finding a Redemptive Path Forward
22:29 Protests and Media Coverage
25:37 The Impact of Media on Perception
28:25 Understanding the Biblical Response
32:14 Local Engagement and Community Action
37:14 Navigating Complex Issues with Grace

Related Episodes: 

Episode 119 (11/04/24)

Episode 118 (10/28/24)

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01.1)
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the church talk podcast with Rob and Jason. Hey, we're, we're doing a special today. Like this is, we weren't planning to do this episode, but we wanted to do it because we've been talking about it and we just felt it was a timely thing. So, I feel like we have to like give caveats, but maybe we don't, we just say screw that and go straight forward with the conversation. But I don't know, Rob, what do you think?

Rob Paterson (00:31.39)
Yeah, Jason, I'm telling you, I see people talking about this. I see people posting about this. You and I obviously for days now have been reading and kind of trying to do our homework to to get her a better grasp on it. And really, I think that, the broader thing for people in ministry really boils down to this whole idea of what what do we do and how do we engage?

And even how do we respond when there are instances where there's division and man, it seems like, you know, 45, 50 % like 50, 50 kind of thing, 60, 40, you know, of our country, of our people and our churches are on one side of an issue. And, and then, you know, the other half are on the other, like what do we do? How do we engage in ways that are helpful and redemptive? Uh, because it's not as easy as we think it is sometimes.

Jason Allison (01:28.174)
Oh yeah. Well, I mean, and obviously this, you know, last weekend when this drops, it will be a weekend ago, at least, uh, we, we, you we saw the protest around the country, uh, that they called the no Kings protest and it happened, you know, at the same time as, uh, Trump having the army, you know, 250 year, whatever. And, of course, which

just so happened to coincide with his birthday. So the optics on this are really not good in so many ways. Just from perception.

Rob Paterson (02:02.802)
Yeah. And having a, yeah. And having a bill that many have said is going to like cut things like social security and Medicaid and Medicaid, like health stuff. And, and, and yet we're going to have a huge parade that costs like gazillions of dollars while cutting things that people need to sort of provide basic services.

Jason Allison (02:11.128)
Yeah. And even veterans benefits.

Jason Allison (02:24.524)
Yeah. Right. And in the very context of that, there's this organized, you know, I say protest, it's not like a, it wasn't supposed to be this violent protest. was just a, you know, they were, they were expressing their first amendment rights of being able to, you know, express their opinion, even when it was not in line with the current president and, you know, political party, et cetera. And so those two things happening.

at the exact same time and in LA having the immigrant stuff happening where, you know, there's some riots breaking out because of the way, president Trump has called up the national guard and taken over some things when he was, you know, even though the governor and the mayor both said, please don't, and he did, but did they need it? I don't know. I am not a political expert. I, I maybe I am going to stay on a holiday in tomorrow night. So maybe I will be later, but,

You know, so, but it's like one of those things where it's like, I don't know what was best there. All I know is that they are very divided in their responses. And in the midst of that, you know, I have, I'm supposed to be shepherding people, right. And we live in a context and I, you know, I know I drove Saturday, I was driving in my little town here in Delaware, Ohio, you know, small town.

The streets were lined with protesters on Saturday for about an hour. There were no incidents. They, everybody followed the rules that everything right. It was fine. But I was driving through town and boom, there's protesters on either side. like, yeah, that's today. you know, and, so I, I think it's something we as pastors need to, we need to talk about and we need to think about, because I'm sure you have people in your church who attended no Kings protest. And I'm sure you have people in your church who were very, very upset.

that there were such protests happening. And so we have to be thinking as pastors, how do we engage in a redemptive, constructive, God-honoring way, issues like this? And so, Rob, I'm hoping you have the answer. Go.

Rob Paterson (04:28.317)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (04:33.214)
Yeah, I have no answers, but I do think, you know, there are three responses. You've already talked about two of them, right? one of them being, you know, yes, this was the right thing to do. People should protest and listen, I am, I am all for people exercising their right to peaceful protest. I think that's, mean, if you feel that strongly about something, I think part of the problem with our world is that we just have so much.

apathy and we feel strongly about something and all we do is like use our thumbs and post things on Facebook or so other social media platforms. If you feel that strongly about something actually get out and you know, have a sign or do something like that. So I'm all for that. So there are people who are like, that was absolutely the right thing to do. You know, this is ridiculous and I oppose it. Right. And then there's the other side who are like, no, no, no, no. Like,

Jason Allison (05:08.962)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (05:27.038)
Trump is like he was sent to us by God for such a time as this and he is good and right and whatever you know there there's that side as well. And then you know if I'm just being honest part of my problem is like personally and I say it like from like an internal perspective not like people are shaking their fingers at me like I want to engage like I'm not afraid I don't want to like intentionally be silent about things.

Jason Allison (05:51.938)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (05:56.99)
that I have a strong and God-honoring opinion about. But a lot of times, Jason, when I look at both sides of, you pick the issue, this issue, another issue, man, I look at one side and I go, yeah, like I can see the point they have. And then I look at the other issue honestly and I go, huh, I can see the point they have.

And then I look back at the first group and I'm like, well, I can see your point, but how you're behaving and how you're doing it is so ridiculous. I would not want to be affiliated with you because of your behavior. And then I look back at the other group and I go, huh, same with you. Like you got a point, but you're, you're so idiotic in your expression of this at times that I don't want to associate with that.

Jason Allison (06:28.398)
Right.

Jason Allison (06:33.774)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (06:43.074)
Well, I know it's hard. I planted and pastored a church in this little town where there's a very progressive liberal college university. Even though it has Wesleyan in the name, it is not affiliated in any way, or form at that anymore. They broke those ties and they are extremely progressive in a lot of the stuff. And I had, you know, professors as well as students from this university attending the little church that I'm pastoring.

And then I also had some extremely conservative people at the church. so watching how the two sides played out and what they did and how they dealt with each other, it was, it was hard because I felt like the bridge between them. And no matter what I did, I pissed off half the crowd. Like it didn't matter what I did. It was wrong to half of them. and, and it was.

And it was only because I said something that the other side would agree with. It wasn't because I advocated for them. I just said something that they would agree with. And therefore the other side, you know, automatically said, well, that means you don't like us at all. And you are completely throwing us out. And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, you are totally when your entire identity is wrapped up in your politics, then there is no room left.

for you to actually have conversations about what Jesus might be doing in your heart because you can't grow anymore. You can't change. And that really, if you can't tell that frustrated me just a little bit.

Rob Paterson (08:10.834)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (08:17.11)
yeah. Well, and I think that frustrates all of us, you know, especially if we really do try to, you know, keep our eyes open. If we do try to see things, you know, through God's eyes. And, you know, if we aren't so blinded politically ourselves that we are always, you know, if you think that one one political extreme is always right and the other is always wrong.

Rob Paterson (08:48.873)
And I think something that all, especially as ministers and as Christians, followers of Jesus, we need to really think hard about and wrestle through if that is true for us and in our lives and especially in our public ministry. Jason, so,

I have a couple actual stories of these aren't news stories. These are like interactions I've had with real people. on Saturday, the first one, a friend of ours was actually at his denominations, you know, district thing that happens every year and happened for a number of days. and you know, he actually called me Saturday.

Jason Allison (09:28.92)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (09:37.034)
I was actually going on my way with my family to a wedding that I was officiating texted me and said, Hey, you got it. What are you, what are you doing? And I'm like, Hey, I'm to a wedding. What's up? He goes, nevermind. We can talk later. And I, I did the tone of the interaction was like, I got to call them. So I had an hour to drive to get to the wedding. So I called him and he, and he said, you know, at the start of our district thing for our churches, there was, know, this kind of interesting, you know, we, apologized for, know, all the land we've stolen.

and again, I'm whatever, like, you know, yeah, some horrible things have happened in the past of our country and acknowledging those things and even taking some responsibility. I don't think that's a bad thing, but he's like, it was really weird in our setting. That was very, homogenous, setting, you know, and he's like, none of us have done that. Like, you know, but whatever. And then he, he's like, I heard all these like sidebar conversations that were very progressive and very anti.

current sitting president kinds of things. And he's like, you know, everybody's welcome to their opinion. Not a big deal. And so it was on Saturday, the last day of the conference, but it was like, you know, still hours left. they, they said, Hey, we we've sent some people to the no Kings protest to like, as like, so look at us. We're great and doing this godly thing. It wasn't, it wasn't a, Hey, you know, we, we oppose just letting millions of people

pour across our borders and, and, know, put, put potentially our citizens in danger. And we protested that. And this time around there's things that we feel strongly about. And so, no, no, no, it was very, you know, lopsided. And then someone was invited up to the platform who was wearing like a very brazen anti-current government kind of t-shirt. It would have been crass in the same way that if you had, you know, you're, you know, pro Trump and

F the other side shirt, you know, like, like, you know, we probably wouldn't want you to wear that to something like this, but certainly we wouldn't have you upfront to lead something. And a person wearing something like that was invited up to lead something and then lead a prayer. And our friend was just so beside himself that he said to his delegate, let's go. And they, they literally on the amen left. Cause he's like, I can't, I can't, I don't know what to do.

Jason Allison (11:34.338)
Yeah, right.

Rob Paterson (12:02.546)
because the whole point was that we were elevating our inclusiveness, but he said every single thing they did really was only embracing and including one side. And if somebody had shown up wearing like a mega hat or something like that, he's like, they would have, they would have been crucified. So, you know, we're, we're, we're, again, our, our friend is not like extremely one way or the other on any of this stuff. You know, he's not like a,

Jason Allison (12:23.651)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (12:29.741)
Right, right.

Rob Paterson (12:32.648)
huge Trump supporter, but just the idea that we're lifting ourselves up as being inclusive and yet we're only really catering and including to one side of the one perspective was just so troubling.

Jason Allison (12:46.467)
Yeah.

Well, it's frustrating because they virtue signal their inclusiveness by excluding the other side. And so then both sides become inclusive to their side, which means excluding anyone else. And they don't even see the hypocrisy of that. And if you call it out, you're just automatically labeled a fascist or, you know, like, it's not a, there's no actual conversation that happens. It's all about.

virtue signaling. And this is, you we are this, therefore we are opposed to anything. The other side may be for even if it's something good. Like that's the thing is when, and oftentimes I got in trouble when I was, you know, leading this church is, is I would call out something that was good on the left or on the right and just say, man, that's a, you know, that is, that's something we should all look at doing and being part of. But one half of the room said,

No, because they like it. Not because it's good or wrong or any, no, if they support it, we can't. And that just drives me nuts. And as a pastor, I want to teach my people how to think and how to engage these things, because I think we've elevated our politics on the same plane as our faith. And so it stops all discussion.

Rob Paterson (13:50.781)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (13:55.09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:11.026)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:15.078)
In a great example that that I when I'm talking about this kind of stuff, I always like to point out not now. I don't know that I've done it in a in a big way, so this might be the largest group of people. I've said something like this in front of it's usually more in small groups or like one on one conversations.

Jason Allison (14:29.528)
It's just me and you, Rob. No one else listens. Don't worry.

Rob Paterson (14:32.552)
Perfect. that might be good for this episode. Who knows? Right. But I still remember, you know, in his first term when, when Donald Trump was, you know, pushing the whole border wall thing and everybody was like, you know, he's, he's xenophobic and every phobia in the whole wide world. And he's just anti humanity and all this kind of stuff. And, and I was just kind of curious. So I just, I literally, it wasn't like days of research. I just did a quick Google search.

And within like a couple minutes, I was watching videos of Barack Obama say, Hey, we need to secure a Southern border. We need to add more wall. Are we really a country? If we don't have borders? I watched Bill Clinton, you know, say basically say like literally every president for decades has said this exact same thing. and here's the thing. if you are pro border wall, great.

Jason Allison (15:20.599)
yeah.

Rob Paterson (15:30.374)
If you are anti border wall for any number of reasons, that's like, can still be friends. We can still have conversations. You know, I have my own thoughts and perspectives about it as well. but here's what I can't stand. When you are pro something, whatever it is, when your person or your party's in office and they want to do it. And then as soon as the other party's in and they want to do it, you're anti because it's the other team. Do not do that.

you're for something, for it regardless of who is suggesting it, right?

Jason Allison (16:00.416)
Right. If it's right, it's right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, that kind of, so the, no King protests that that happened a week ago, you know, and, and, and you and I did just some quick digging on it to see what it was. And, and obviously I didn't, I wasn't able to participate in it. I had way too many other things going on. personally, protest bugged me because I feel like they don't, they just waste time. but in the same breath,

Rob Paterson (16:02.78)
Yes. Yeah.

Jason Allison (16:30.358)
I do know that in the sixties when there were protests, those were action oriented. Like we need to demonstrate to the world the injustice that is happening. And we do it by pushing the limit to the point where that injustice will be played out on us. And we will in full view of the TV cameras experience the injustice so that the eyes of the world can see it. When they

Rob Paterson (16:56.19)
Mm.

Jason Allison (16:56.738)
when they left the dogs loose on the protesters, when they had the fire hoses and they started shooting into the crowd in the 60s at those civil rights protests, the reason for the protest was to demonstrate the injustice and make sure everyone could see it. I don't think protests today do that. And so that's why I'm not so much a fan of the way. I'm not an expert in all the, you can get a degree in this stuff, I know. So that's fine.

Rob Paterson (17:16.158)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (17:25.292)
But I didn't participate because I was busy doing other things. And yet the No Kings protest, the whole idea behind it, and this is according to their websites, right? There's Indivisible, there's the 5051 organization, the ACLU was part of it. There are multiple other organizations. But their idea behind it was basically they wanted to stand up and say, we don't like the

Basically the despot tendencies of Trump and his legislation and the way he's handling things. And, that's fine. You know, if you want to organize a rally to say, we don't like the way this is going. I have no problem with that at all. think that is your American right. And that's fine. I don't know all of the ins and outs of the no Kings protests. Like I, I'm sure there are layers to it that I just don't know about.

And I'll gladly learn if someone wants to tell me. And I don't even say that I disagree with some of their premises. Like, yeah, I don't think, I think the way our current president is operating, some of the ways he's operating, I don't think are in line with the way a president of the United States should handle things. That, okay, I mean.

You know that and $3 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks, right? mean, so, so I don't think that well, it will me cause I just get coffee, but that's, know, but that's the thing is, okay. So you think that that's fine. You know, what then though is the role of the church and the pastor in the midst of these protests, do we, by standing with them, are we advocating for things we maybe don't even realize by not standing with them?

Rob Paterson (18:53.118)
No it won't.

Hahaha

Jason Allison (19:16.96)
Are we advocating for things maybe we don't even realize or, like, I feel like we're caught in a crossfire so that it's the tradition, know, damned if you do damned if you don't, right? I mean, it's no matter what we do here, we're wrong. And, you know, I'm just trying, how do we as pastors respond to this in a redemptive way? Like that, that's the thing that I want to get to is this is more than just your ideas about politics or immigration or

the way things are handled, right? This is about what does the church's redemptive presence look like in your community in these times? And I don't, mean, I think every church can have a different, little bit different answer, but I don't know, Rob, what are you seeing in that part of the conversation?

Rob Paterson (19:56.584)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (20:05.212)
Yeah, I. I don't know, but but but let me let me continue to add color and let's keep moving that direction, because I'm at some point for both of us. Maybe light bulbs will start coming on and will will have like you know some glorious thing to say, because I think a lot of people listening either you are like, yeah, I've been seeing a lot of stuff about this or you read up on it. Or for some of you, you might even be like.

Jason Allison (20:07.638)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (20:12.472)
Okay. Okay.

Rob Paterson (20:31.176)
Quite honestly, now that you say that, think maybe I heard something, but you're just so busy living life and doing things and caring for people that those people out on the street kind of were irrelevant to you or you didn't even see them in your town. So the 50-51 movement, the whole idea is 50 protests in 50 states, one movement, right? Standing against the things that you mentioned. And actually, I...

have a friend who is also, I believe is clergy and in some way, or form. And they actually were invited to attend a protest and they had a little post that actually I've pulled up here right in front of me. And I just want to read it because I think it was a really helpful thing. You know, we can, we can turn on the TV, we can like, you know,

listen to things and I want you to share about that because you know in some of your research you had a really interesting insight but but let me just read this one person's like boots on the ground explanation of what they experienced here's what they said yesterday I joined my first protest no kings in Worcester Ohio with a few other friends I want to share my experience both to correct misinformation and to encourage others

Why did I participate? I'm a former Republican who considers myself an independent because I've not been happy with either party or my options in the last few elections. What an understatement. That was Rob's parenthetical comment. This party is not the Republican Party I grew up with, and I've never been supportive of Trump. I'm also a Christian.

who is hugely disappointed in those who have chosen to succumb to Christian nationalism rather than follow Jesus. As I watch our country's leaders move further to the extreme right, as I listen to our president and others use hateful and dehumanizing language, and as we begin to use our military against its own citizens amid a largely peaceful protest, I simply have had enough.

Rob Paterson (22:50.618)
I am gravely concerned about the direction of our country that we're headed and I don't want to look back and realize that I stood by and did nothing. So I stepped my way out of my comfort zone to exercise my right to free speech and peaceful assembly, which is likely the most patriotic action I've ever taken. I rounded up a couple of friends, we made signs, we borrowed a banner and we drove to Worcester. Here's what we experienced. When we got there just before 2 PM,

Many were already gathered. The atmosphere was congenial and upbeat. A band played patriotic music in the band shell. Many carried American flags. By 2 30, we had filled downtown in all directions with roughly a thousand joining in. I was concerned about anti-protesters, but we had just one guy with a Trump sign and a very apologetic wife. And he left after about 30 minutes or so. I expected motorists to be rude.

but the vast majority actually clapped, honked in support, waved, cheered, and in some cases held their own signs out their car windows. Every once in a while, a motorist would rev their engines, speed through and flip us off, but those folks were few and far between. It was overwhelmingly kind, supportive, and friendly. Last night, I texted friends and relatives who had participated in other protests across the country, and we all had similar experiences.

Jason Allison (24:10.51)
you

Rob Paterson (24:17.062)
I'm not seeing much reported in the news.

But on threads, I'm seeing hundreds of reports from across the country and more than 10 million people participated in about 2000 separate protests. Many of them right here in deeply red Ohio. So I just thought that was, know, cause Jason, quite honestly, like a lot of the things that I have seen, you know, and it hasn't been hugely covered, but a lot of the things I've seen on the media are all about like.

violence and like throwing chunks of asphalt at passersby. And, and I'm, you know, I'm sure with, with this many people gathered, like there, you gotta have some idiots who do dumb things, but you know, I appreciated actually hearing someone's experience at one of these things, you know, like someone I know, someone I trust giving me their honest opinion and perspective of what took place.

Jason Allison (25:12.11)
Right.

Jason Allison (25:16.45)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I, know a couple of people who went who I'm friends with or related to, and, know, they both had similar experiences. One was even in Columbus, like at the state house. and it was peaceful. Like there, there were no, you know, no big deal. it, it wasn't. So I, I was, when I was doing some just, you know, quick research on what is no Kings. Cause I honestly did not know a ton about it. and as

looking at the news reports and my gosh, this is where we say this over and over on this podcast, right? You are discipled by something. You are formed and shaped by whatever it is you listen to the most. And I can see why people who only listen to Fox News or only listen to, you know, MSNBC or CNN or something that's way on you know, other end of the spectrum.

Like the way they documented this event, you would have thought it was two different events. Like you would, I mean, it was so crazy because Fox, they focused on one, there was one act of violence, right? That wasn't necessarily even related to it, but maybe it was, we don't even know. That's all that was that like led the, you know, led the story and, it was, you know, the, the mayor's

Rob Paterson (26:21.086)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (26:41.836)
and the governors are preparing for the worst and da da da. That's how they presented it to where on the other side of the spectrum, all they did was show these peaceful protest and it was, you like it was just so, it was just so stark, the difference between the two and it's the exact same event. And, that just that right there as a pastor, I want my people to realize

whatever it is you're listening to will shape your understanding of the current events. And you need to see that you need to be able to step back. And I mean, we want to take this further. Is there a biblical response to this? Well, yes, there's a lot of them. Like that's the thing that, you know, and what do you mean by biblical? And I don't know. Go ahead. You were going to say something and I just kept rolling.

Rob Paterson (27:22.899)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (27:35.334)
No, no, no. I just think that's great. And when you sent me that you're like, you were kind of like blown away. Like I can't believe like how extremely different the perspectives were. And, I actually have our little thread pulled up here and it, and my response to you was that is strange. I never would have expected that. I thought all the outlets just covered the news. Right. And, and, and as Courtney, you know, pointed out, I think a couple of times,

Jason Allison (27:57.687)
Hahaha.

Rob Paterson (28:05.19)
really like you might go no the you know Fox News is the one that is the truest or whatever and some of you are like no no no it's MSNBC or CNN or whatever but it's interesting you know how Courtney would point out that it's actually these gigantic you know multinational conglomerates that there's two or three that literally own all of those and and so really it's the same people that control both voices but here's the deal if every news outlet was just all reporting

Jason Allison (28:24.718)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (28:34.094)
on peaceful protests across the country, nobody would watch that, it wouldn't be any fun. But if you can flip from one to the other and be like, yeah, there's right and wrong and good and bad and left and right and whatever, it actually sort of creates interest and engagement, and I think that's largely what people are trying to do there. And so we've gotta be really careful, again, like you said, about being discipled by our favorite cable news channel.

Jason Allison (29:02.424)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (29:02.83)
as opposed to being discipled by the scriptures and by spiritual disciplines and, you know, by godly people in the church.

Jason Allison (29:07.256)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think I was telling you that I was on a call with some, it was a prayer call and this, this woman who was praying and, and I, she tends to whatever, it's fine, but she was, she's praying. And I remember, know, she, she grew out of a very pagan background. Okay. She did not grow up in church. So the whole thing of praying and stuff is it's still, I mean, even though she's been a Christian now for a long time, she still talks to God. Like she would talk to anyone.

Right. It's not. And I remember, and she is very right leaning in her politics, which is fine. I, know, it doesn't matter to me, but I, she, you she started praying. and these, these people, the, the, no Kings, I don't know what the hell is wrong with them. That's how she prayed. You know, and I was like, this is awesome, but, what the world's going on, you know? And, so I, but I just remember thinking through that. was like, okay, this is the difference between, cause I know people who

love Jesus a lot and are really devoted followers of Jesus who were at the protest and were there for biblical reasons in their mind. so my question and all that really is, how can we discern what the, I want to say the biblical response that I don't like that phrase because like you've used this example before, you know, it's biblical to take babies and dash their heads against the rocks.

If you don't want them because that's in the Bible, that doesn't make it good. That just means it's in the Bible. but when we, like the way you phrase that, what's a redemptive response when we see what's going on from the immigrants who, and I'm hearing stories of, know, one guy, actually the reporter was embedded with the team that went to arrest someone. Right. And they go and they arrest a guy who has a warrant out for his arrest. I mean, he's, he is a criminal in the process.

Rob Paterson (30:40.083)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (31:04.629)
This guy's brother happened to also be getting in a different car and they went over and talked to him, found out he was also an immigrant and they arrested him as well. Even though he had no record, no warrant, had, you the only thing he did is a week prior when Trump decided to change the way immigration was done. It made him illegal because the way he came in as of a week ago was now illegal. you know, and so he gets arrested too.

So I hear those stories and I'm like, I totally understand why people would be against that. And so when I think about what is a redemptive response to that, to those type things, you know, I start thinking in terms of very local, right? Very dealing with the people who are right there, not the people who are way off, blah, blah, blah, but the people who are in my community who are dealing with the fear.

Rob Paterson (31:36.734)
So when you understand why people will be against that. And so when I think about what is a redemptive response to that, to those type things, I start thinking in terms of very local, very near and dear people who are right there. Not the people who are way off, blah, blah, but the people who are in my community.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (32:04.674)
that they could just be taken away.

I, and the way I see doing that is it's kind of like, use this example in one of the workshops I was leading last week, a lady brought up that there was a, um, some kind of, uh, it was like, it's a government thing, right? It was a, but it was a gathering and they were talking about, uh, LGBTQ rights and so forth. And they're having a forum on it and their church people wanted them, wanted to know where they stood on this.

Rob Paterson (32:23.71)
was government thing, right? was a gathering and they were talking about LGBTQ rights and so forth and they're having a forum on it. And their church people wanted them, wanted to know where they stood on this and what they were gonna do about it. And they were like, this is hard.

Jason Allison (32:38.518)
and what they were going to do about it. and, know, like, and they were like, man, this is hard. I don't like, this is not an easy, just, you know, and I, I, said, what should we do? You know, like, huh. And you've got a cultural thing. You know, this was not, this was not your typical just white pastor in the middle of Ohio, right? These, these were serving in a downtown in a non Anglo setting. And so, you know, there's, there was consequences and, they, you know, I basically said,

Rob Paterson (32:44.646)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (33:06.286)
You know, the one thing that changed it for me in the way I responded. I've got some very good friends who are in the LGBT community. When I have faces with the names, with the, it's no longer a statistic. It's no longer them or those people. It's Terry and Bill and you know, like it's, it's actual people and that changes the way I respond.

Rob Paterson (33:32.018)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (33:32.554)
And so when I think about how do I respond to this immigration stuff that's going on? Yes. One thing to do is to protest, right? Is to say, we don't like the way things are going. do this. There, there are inherent things here that we're afraid the path can go really, really bad. Fine. That's good. Do that. But I also think that an action oriented thing is to step in and say, Hey, you know what scripture says the mandate in scripture is to care for the lost, the least, and the overlooked.

And that's exactly who a lot of these are. Not all of them. There are some really bad apples, right? That's the problem. It's not just all of them or none of them. That's why you got to get really local and go and find out where is the neighborhood right in your area where a lot of these immigrants live. What can you do to serve them? What can you do to have names with them and those people and start to say, OK, what can we do to help them? Because.

Rob Paterson (34:12.434)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (34:31.212)
I don't think God wants them living in this constant fear because the current administration has a certain way of doing things. I think there's stuff churches can do in that regard.

Rob Paterson (34:41.49)
Yeah. And I think then, and I, I understand, right? Like so many people are just like, well, they, you know, if they came here illegally, they broke the law and they deserve to be, you know, whatever set home. you know what, if you've been here, if you've been here for years, if you've been here for sometimes decades, and you know, you have had kids here and you have family here and you have roots here and you've, you know, served well in your job or whatever.

And now like 18 years later, someone's like, no, now it's, that's like, got to be kicked out. you know, that really doesn't make sense. You know what I mean?

Jason Allison (35:19.214)
Yeah. Well, and there are stories of people who were actually following the law and doing what they were asked, you know, what they were asked to do. And they got a call saying, would you come check in and they come check in and get arrested and taken away. And this is like, I mean, there's a story of a person who works with, you know, immigrants who drove this woman to her hearing with her daughter, two daughters, and they, and this was scheduled and she had been doing this for three years following the rules.

Rob Paterson (35:23.784)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (35:49.026)
Yeah, all the stuff and, everything. And she was actually, it was called to you. Visa is what it's called, which means she is actually going to testify, because she is the victim of a crime. Right. And, and she gets, and they take her back for her appointment, but they don't let her kids go back or this lady who's with her. And the guy comes out a little later and says, we've detained her and she's already on a bus off to somewhere. And you can either have the kids go with children's services or you can take them.

Rob Paterson (36:00.829)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (36:19.416)
Like that's where I mean, that's not right. Like, mean, that's, that is wrong. And there is, there is a time where we need to be able to do something about that. I don't know. mean, I don't know what the answer is.

Rob Paterson (36:19.422)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (36:22.877)
Right.

Rob Paterson (36:31.09)
Yeah. And Jason, I think that's where, you know, like when you say, when you get local, when you actually have names and faces and real life interaction over a period of time with people, you can in a very real way go, no, these are like good people and they're doing the right things and they're productive members of society and they're taking the steps they need to, you know, in order to course correct and whatever versus, no, no, no, no, that is one of those bad apples and they're, you know, delinquents and whatever. And then that's a different,

Jason Allison (36:37.4)
Yes. Yes.

Jason Allison (36:45.368)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:01.266)
conversation because you actually know. And I have a very unique perspective on this for a couple of reasons. So my, my mom was born in England and she was a first generation immigrant to Canada. My dad was born in Scotland, was a first generation immigrant to Canada. And I, you know, came to the United States in college, as a Canadian citizen. and so I'm a first generation immigrant to the United States.

Jason Allison (37:02.382)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (37:06.542)
You do.

Rob Paterson (37:30.782)
And so even though I know how terrible and confusing the paperwork and the processes, even for an educated person who speaks English as a first language, you know, so I get that part, but I'm also extremely white. And so, you know, like, yeah, so like I can walk down the street without any fear of anyone going, that guy, you know,

Jason Allison (37:52.984)
Tasty wait.

Jason Allison (37:59.874)
He's a foreigner.

Rob Paterson (38:00.094)
That guy's he's a foreigner, so we're going to get him and send him somewhere, you know. So all of those things are really interesting for me. The the Christ like redemptive thing is I work really, really hard to try to stay in the middle. As long as possible.

until I really kind of like there's a breaking point or it just becomes clear. I've got to fall off the log in this way. It's kind of like, and I love this. I learned this a long time ago. You know, when you look at the Beatitudes, the first half of them are things that we can't do. Like God meets us in our brokenness and he does these things for us. And then the second half are things that then you and I, we need to do.

Jason Allison (38:38.51)
you

Rob Paterson (38:48.378)
in response to what God has done and is doing for us, right? So when God meets us in our need, does work in us, now we can actually live in a responsive way. And then here's, know, at the end, what does it say? It says, blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake. So when we refuse to take sides, and there's only one thing that happens, it's not like,

It's not like people love us. Everyone hates us because everybody wants you to take their side, right? And so we for doing the right thing and standing and saying, listen, I get your perspective and I get your perspective. There's good and bad on both sides, but I'm trying to take God's perspective and I'm going to stay in the middle. We will get persecuted, which will then bring us back to the beginning. These are cyclical, right? And we will be broken and in need of God to meet us right where we are, where we can do nothing about that again.

Jason Allison (39:21.528)
Yep.

Jason Allison (39:39.468)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:46.808)
And so again, I just try really hard and I don't do it perfectly and I fail all the time. But instead of getting fired up because of my perspective or my politics or even my experience, I really try hard to see the good and the God on both sides of an issue, you know, until it just becomes untenable and I've got to go, okay, I'm taking a stand here.

Jason Allison (40:05.731)
Mm.

Jason Allison (40:10.85)
Yeah. And I would think, you know, one last thing at least I would ask people to think about is when you look at those people, at the other, least the lost and the overlooked, right? They are image bearers, image bearers of God just like you. They were created in the image of God just like you. Don't confuse the American rights and, you know, rules and laws with

the biblical mandate to love. And here's the thing. I don't know what the best immigration policy is for America. Like I agree. You can't just have open borders that you then like you quoting Obama, then you don't have a country. Right. And there does need we don't have the infrastructure to support the entire world. Right. So there does have to be some regulations and a process. But that doesn't mean you have to be cruel.

in the way you handle people who are already here. There's got to be a balance there and not an extreme on either either side. And so and I don't know what the answer to that is because I am not in government. I don't want to be in government for this exact reason. I would be terrible in government because I would err on the side of grace. And that's usually not good for a communal right. You know, when you think about politics is how we operate within a community of people. And if

If the leader is full of grace, then he's, you know, and not necessarily holding the law in order, then yeah, it might cause some problems because they're bad actors, right? They're bad people and they're going to push that and abuse that.

Rob Paterson (41:53.49)
Yep. So Jason, from my vantage point, I know we've raised a lot of questions. We haven't necessarily given a lot of answers, although I don't know that there are a lot of perfect answers. But from my vantage point, just three sound bites from from me kind of in closing one, a friend of ours said this and I love it. He said, I believe we can actually deport criminals and reform immigration at the same time. You know,

Jason Allison (42:21.859)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (42:22.63)
And I think that's so good, right? Like some people, it's gotta all change and we gotta get it all perfect and then we can kind of get to no, no, no, no. Or other people like kick them all out. They're bad, they're evil, they're wrong. No, no, we can actually identify the ones we know who are criminals and who are up to no good and send those people somewhere else. And at the same time, fix our broken thing. Sound bite number two, cause again, for anyone who's like, they're leaning one way or another, you know, I actually saw someone asked,

president Trump about, what do you think about the no Kings thing? And, one of the complaints I often have internally myself about president Trump is his tone. but I, I felt like he was in this instance being really, genuine. And he's like, listen, if you knew how difficult it was to really try to get anything done in the government, you wouldn't be referring to me as a king. I don't feel like a king.

And then the last one, which I thought was great. My wife sent me this even earlier today. Reverend Benjamin Kramer said this, when you worship power, compassion and mercy will look like sins. When you worship power, the harsher the treatment toward your enemies, the more righteous it will look. When you worship power, the value and dignity of others is solely measured by their conformity to you.

Jason Allison (43:50.06)
Yeah, I feel like we should just take an offering. that was, that was perfect. Well, I don't know where you are on this as a listener. you know, maybe you participated, maybe you were completely against it. Maybe you didn't even know what happened. but we just thought we'd take a little bit of time and process it together, and let you listen in on us trying to process something that obviously neither of us fully grasp. I don't think anybody fully grasp it. and it's a very.

organic and moving issue, right? It's constantly shifting and changing. And that's part of the problem. Whatever I say today may be outdated in two weeks. And so that makes things, that makes it rough to have a firm stance on anything. But in all of this, I definitely know we are called to love people. We are called to share the hope of Christ with them, whether they're from America or not.

We are called to love them as Jesus called us to love everyone, even the least of these. And as we serve them, we don't know, we might be serving an angel, right? Like he says that in Hebrews. So I'm not going to take my chances. I'm going to serve. I'm going to love. And I hope as you work through this, we'd love to hear your stories of how you process this, of incidents in your church and how this, you know, played itself out and how you navigated it because

We know we both have a lot to learn and so we would love to learn from you And also we just appreciate you and we are cheering for you We are praying for you and we're we really want to see you Be the best you as a pastor that you can be and if we can help in any way we're here Hey, have a wonderful week. If you get a chance, share this like this Help other people engage this kind of stuff. Have an amazing week. Thanks