The Kairos Code with Josh Kosnick

Summary

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Rob Paterson and Jason Allison engage in a lively conversation with Josh Kosnick, the author of 'The Kairos Code'. They discuss the importance of learning from failure, the concept of Kairos versus Chronos, and how leaders can realign their lives and build legacies. The episode is filled with personal anecdotes, insights on leadership, and practical advice for personal growth.

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Welcome to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. ⁓ Rob, it's good to see you, my friend. How's life in the fast lane of small town Ohio?

Rob Paterson (00:12)
You know, ⁓ after you and I actually were together last week, I think we said this on our recording. We had a day with pastors last Thursday and I got home. You already know this, but our listeners don't and most won't care, but I'm going to say it anyway because I'm excited. So I got home. It was like one of the first cooler, you know, kind of evenings of the year. I wasn't going to start hunting when it was 80 degrees out. So I decided I'm going to go sit in my tree stand.

and I shot a 160 inch 15 point buck on my first hunt of the year and it was a glorious thing. So I'm still kind of basking in the glow of that.

Jason Allison (00:51)
Yeah, yeah, I got those. You sent me those pictures ⁓ that evening. Hey, look what I did today after a long meeting. Yeah, I'm so that that was that was cool. I'm hoping this year maybe I get a little, you know, at least a little deer jerky out of it or something, you know, because years past, you might know a guy. All right. All right. well, Rob, hey, man, we I'm excited about the our guest today. This is going to be a great a great conversation we have with us.

Rob Paterson (01:08)
I might know a guy.

Jason Allison (01:21)
I'd say in the studio, but it's all virtual. He's in his studio, which is honestly way cooler than ours. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Maybe someday. No, we have with us Josh Koznick. ⁓ He wrote the book, The Kairos Code. ⁓ He is a bridge builder. I mean, that's really self-identified ⁓ label. And it's based on some of the things in the book that I will get into in a little bit. But he is a leader. And if you read this book,

Rob Paterson (01:25)
Way cooler than our studio that we don't have, yeah.

Jason Allison (01:51)
forged by fire and guided by faith. After building and exiting three successful businesses, Josh now helps leaders realign their lives, reclaim their purpose and honestly build legacies that last. He's the founder of Kairos Coaching and Consulting. He is the host of Spartan Leadership Podcast, which, hey, I suggest go check that one out too. ⁓ You can listen to two. You can listen to ours and to others. But I've listened to few and

Rob Paterson (02:19)
Yeah.

Josh Kosnick (02:19)
That's right.

Jason Allison (02:20)
Yeah, it's great and the author of the USA Today bestseller, the Kairos code. So hey Josh man, thank you for taking some time and joining us today, man.

Josh Kosnick (02:30)
Excited to be with you guys and talk about all things, but particularly focused on Christ and how we build these bridges, not just to Him, but our best relationships, our best selves, and excited for the conversation.

Jason Allison (02:46)
Well, let's just get started. I mean, what prompted you to actually write this book?

Josh Kosnick (02:52)
You know, it's funny about that thought even is that it never crossed my mind when I was running businesses and building those businesses. My English teachers would be absolutely shocked if they're still alive that I wrote a book. I haven't run into any. So I don't know if they know that I've written a book, but it came from my pit of despair is when everything in my world came crashing down on me, God said,

Rob Paterson (03:04)
Thanks.

Josh Kosnick (03:21)
put a couple things in my heart. First week, I'm in my ultimate doldrums. I'm in the absolute pit. And I know many listeners have had their own pits of despair. ⁓ I heard a whisper and he said, you're free. And I didn't know what it meant. I didn't want to hear it because I didn't want to be free at that point. I was loving what I was doing in my previous world. And through the next six months of going through the stages of grief,

for re-envisioning who I was and who I wanted to be moving forward. ⁓ There's some really profound lessons that I learned through that journey. And through that and starting to write a newsletter, starting to journal more, ⁓ it really came to me that I was like, hey, these lessons weren't just meant for me. They were meant for the world. And hopefully some others don't have to go through the pain that I went through to learn these lessons.

Jason Allison (04:10)
Hmm.

Josh Kosnick (04:16)
And so that's really where it stemmed from.

Rob Paterson (04:21)
I love that. I love that, Josh. You know, ⁓ I remember even as a, as a teenager, you know, I kind of got it into some, some business thinking and business books and leadership kinds of things. And I remember being fascinated by the idea that, know, in corporate America, if somebody's looking for like a C-suite leader, you know, a CEO, whatever, they always like to pick people who have had.

Jason Allison (04:21)
Great. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (04:48)
failure because we a lot of times we learn a lot more you know through our failure than if everything just clicks and works and I think in the church world you know that's something we've not figured out or embraced well like we always just want to if God's gonna bless it it's gonna work but I love in your book you know there's a story that you tell kind of talking about how your life fell apart at the the what like you know the height of outward success

Maybe talk a little bit about that and how some of the difficulties and failures in life helped you really realign and figure some things out.

Josh Kosnick (05:24)
think you're spot on there, Rob. ⁓ We've learned far more from our failures than we do from our successes. And I don't know if it's the, I'm sure there's a psychological and ⁓ science way to put this that I don't know, but I think there's a lot of emotional ⁓ attachments that happen to those failures that are just much stronger than the successes. And that just sinks in more. So I'll talk through a little bit of ⁓ the pinnacle and what everyone saw outwardly. So.

At 35 years old, I'm named managing partner of this large financial firm. And we had 250 ⁓ employees, 115 of which were advisors, we're managing. We grew to $4 billion of assets under management. outwardly, I'm this raging success. I've got a beautiful family. I'm godly, I'm in shape. All the outwardly things that people are looking at me and being like, man, that guy's got it all together.

And for the most part I did. For the most part I did. There's some certain, some failings. Like I went through it in the book as well. So what happened at age 41 was I had a advisor that was kind of a cancer in the culture. And it was during the heart of the BLM stuff and DEI push and corporate world and all this different stuff. And he ends up suing me for discrimination.

And not because I actually discriminated against him. I actually cared for him a lot, brought him in. He was the youngest appointed managing director in company history that was African-American. ⁓ Gave him probably more than I should have. So again, lessons learned. That being said, the company didn't want to be a part of a messy lawsuit. And so they terminated me and bought me out to save themselves from the publicity or potential negative publicity of that. So my world comes crashing down.

And I thought, again, I thought from age 35 to 55, I'm going to own, run and grow that firm as big as possible and figure out what my next chapter would be at 55. And the age old, you know, saying, if you want to make God laugh, tell them your plans. That played out, right? God had different plans for me. And so I'm interviewing with many other financial firms being chased by everyone. And I just put a pause on everything. And I literally for six months, I'm

Jason Allison (07:35)
you

Josh Kosnick (07:49)
negotiating this exit, I'm battling my own mental demons, asking God every question under the sun, because I thought I was living my purpose. I thought I was doing what He assigned me to do. And when that gets taken away from you, you got a lot of questions. And I asked them all. And I didn't hide from the pain, I didn't hide from the grief, I didn't hide from the shame or the betrayal or any of the feelings that I had. I sat in it. And I think it was the smartest thing I did.

Rob Paterson (08:00)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (08:07)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (08:09)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Jason Allison (08:19)
you

Josh Kosnick (08:20)
Because most

of us, especially us men, want to push that away. Especially when, you know, in my view of things, it's not that I didn't do anything wrong, there's plenty of things that I did wrong, but I didn't do what I was being accused of, and that was really hard. And, you know, there was rumors flying and this and that and all that, and I couldn't focus on any of that. I had to focus on my own well-being to be the best husband and father that I could be to four young kids and to my wife. And so I'm just trying to get myself straight.

Rob Paterson (08:36)
Hmm.

Josh Kosnick (08:50)
So a lot of evenings in prayer and talks with God on my backfire pit with a bourbon in hand and a cigar in the other. And it was just, yeah, perfect setting, overlooking the golf course. ⁓ And as I got...

Jason Allison (08:59)
Perfect.

Rob Paterson (09:05)
think we need to have

a moment of silence right now. mean, that's the holy trinity. Golf, bourbon, cigars, I mean.

Jason Allison (09:08)
Yeah.

Josh Kosnick (09:08)
Hahaha!

Well, as a Robin, you'll appreciate this as it it got further into the season, there was a cigar and rifle in hand and and hunting up up north in Wisconsin as well. So but as I got to acceptance, I got to start thinking through what was next. And God was basically telling me that I had accomplished everything I set out to in that industry and it's time to blaze a different trail. OK, God, well, what is that? I thought I was going to do this for the rest of my life. And so you go start going through

that work and I had a couple of conversations ⁓ with people, not with God. also, you know, talked to humans as well. And it was more about, all right, my mission wasn't to just do the visionary leadership work in the financial industry. My vision was still set on helping people see things bigger for themselves. My vision was still about helping people continue to grow, grow great culture, recruit, develop humans.

into better versions of themselves. So I can do that in any space. I could go into the franchise world. I could go into fast food. I could go into retail. I could do that in any space. But how do I want to do it? Well, then I settled on, hey, I don't want what just happened to me to happen again. I don't know that I could withstand it for myself or my family. So whatever I do next, I need to do for on my own without any corporate overlords, without any other control.

and really continue to grow. And that's what led me into coaching, speaking, and eventually writing.

Jason Allison (10:44)
Yeah. Well, I mean, speaking of the writing in the book, you identify ⁓ five bridges of Kairos. And I love that. I actually was telling Rob before, before we started, I preached a couple of weeks ago at a church in Baltimore and I talked about the Kairos circle and we talked about Kairos versus Kronos and you know, how to engage scripture and all that stuff. But, you kind of, take it, take that even to another level when you talk about these five bridges.

⁓ maybe explain that framework and then how leaders can use this, especially in our context, leaders and pastors to realign their lives.

Josh Kosnick (11:24)
Yeah. Thank you for asking that. It's a, ⁓ it was a heart epiphany in that pit of despair is realizing.

that I wasn't chasing God as much as I was chasing positional power or ownership or being a big deal in a humanly ⁓ form, that I wasn't pursuing my wife as much as I was pursuing my goals, that my schedule was dictated by work and not by raising my kids. And so when everything came crashing down on me,

There was a big epiphany. I wasn't allowed to go back to the offices that my name was still on the lease for, which was another slap in the face. ⁓ But they packed up the boxes in my offices and sent them to me via some movers. And I couldn't open the boxes for like a month. It was just too much pain. I didn't want to deal with it. Whatever. A month later, I finally get the courage to open them sitting in my basement, going through these boxes and I have the epiphany. was like. None of this matters.

It's like the people around me, my wife, my kids, my relationship with God, my family, my brothers, my parents, like that's, they didn't leave me. I didn't lose them. And all this stuff, the awards, the accolades, the trophies, uh, designations that I had earned that were filling those boxes. Like if I had died today, that would just be stuff my family would have to deal with or collect dust on the shelf. No, U-Haul doesn't follow a hearse.

We can't take any of it with us. So I have this epiphany and I was like, man, I got it all wrong. I was like, not that I couldn't be extremely successful, is that I prioritize things wrong. And so bridge number one is spiritual. If I'm not right with God, I can't be the best version of myself. I can't live out and serve others with the gifts that He gave me if I'm not right with Him.

Jason Allison (12:58)
You

Josh Kosnick (13:26)
if I'm not pursuing Him and honoring Him in everything that I do. So that has to be bridge one. Bridge two is internal. And I call that internal because it's your mental, your emotional, and your physical health. Again, playing off bridge one, if I'm not my best version of myself, I can't love others the way that God loves us. I can't physically show up for them. I can't mentally or emotionally show up for them the way I need to show up for them, the way they deserve to be showed up for. So I have to take care of

me as bridge number two, and be as strong mentally, as strong emotionally, as strong physically as I possibly can be to serve others to the magnitude that I want to serve others. And then bridge three is relationships. Again, if I'm not right with God, if I'm not right with myself, if I'm not right with my wife, if I'm not right with my kids, nothing else matters. Relationships are the fruit of life. God gave us this communal

communal beings like the need to be in community, the need to be in some sort of grouping, especially the need to be in love with Christ with others. That is the church. The people are the church. So my job in Bridge 3 is to not screw up the order. God first, yourself second, your wife if you have one or your spouse if you have one, your kids if you have them, and then everyone else. During COVID time was a big eye opener as well because

I, you the kids are home, the wife's home, we should have had the most time together possible. Well, had 250 people to steward as well. And you think about pastors that are listening to this, you got a lot of responsibilities. So during COVID, I'd work and be on Zoom meetings from say, eight to five every day. But then the work didn't stop because from from from about five to eight, or sometimes five to 10pm, I'm playing psychologist to all my people because they were going bad.

I, know, 115 advisors that are used to being communal beings used to being in front of their clients on a day to day basis. Uh, the other employees used to being in the office together, used to being communal, used to having commiseration or water talk or whatever. They didn't have that anymore. So I immediately as the owner of the firm, I became part-time psychologist to 250 people. And I wasn't spending as much time with my family as I w I should have been in that time that we were locked in a house together. So relationships is bridge three and we got to get that order right.

Then bridge four is what I call environment, but it's really the bridge that we all skip to. And it's not necessarily our fault. There's also societal pressures. I shouldn't say it's all our fault. We bear some responsibility, but it's societal, it's everything. It's like we're taught, okay, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And then you get into high school. What are you gonna go to college for? And then you go to college. What are you gonna do with that degree? And then you get into a position of work and you start chasing those goals. You start chasing money.

and you start to forget that bridges one through three exist. And we start to just go to church on Sunday and, OK, I checked that box. I work out occasionally, so I check that box. I do date night with my wife every other month. I check that box. But my focus, my calendar is all on building my professional career. And as us men are listening, we put that under the guise of being the provider.

Jason Allison (16:25)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (16:38)
You

Jason Allison (16:50)
Hmm.

Josh Kosnick (16:50)
Right? So we'll wear the provider badge. And because God tells us to be the provider and protector, I am providing, so I'm spending all my time building my business. I'm spending all my time growing people. I'm spending all my time making money and forgetting the bridges one through three exist. And so it's a trap. So environment is your professional, your financial. And I also put in there your creative and your joy. Because without those, we as kids understand creative and joy a lot.

Rob Paterson (17:07)
Mm.

Jason Allison (17:15)
Yeah.

Josh Kosnick (17:20)
And then we forget that we are creative humans. We are joyful humans. And we got to blend that into our environment as much as we do our work in financials. And if we get the first four bridges right, bridge five is legacy. And the thing people get wrong about legacy is they think it's some day, it's 20 years out, it's 30 years out, it's whenever I die, which we all think it's going to be way out. at the same time, know that it could be any day, but we all think it's going to be way out there.

And so we leave our legacy thoughts to the future. What we don't realize is, first of all, legacy isn't what we leave behind to others. It's what we leave in others. And the legacy is built every single day that you're blessed to wake up in every single interaction that you have and every action that you make, you are building upon your legacy.

Rob Paterson (18:16)
That's super helpful. So I have a legacy question Josh, but before I get there, maybe I'm going to ask some, if you would give Jason some free counseling here because he took the, life quotient assessment and number two, the internal was the one for him. He needed the most workout. What would you say to someone like him who might like that's his growth area?

Josh Kosnick (18:41)
Well, there's three elements to that. Rob, I love how you throw Jason under the bus. Maybe he can repay you the favor. But there's three elements to that. There's mental, emotional, and physical. So I don't know without seeing Jason's scores where that is. Maybe he's doing really well mental and emotional. And then perhaps it's physical that he needs to work on. And I'll just take that angle for a moment.

Rob Paterson (18:48)
You

Josh Kosnick (19:09)
What is it, like if you think go to Legacy, for example, ⁓ in Jason, if we go to that bridge, what is it that you want to be or spoken about at your funeral?

And if we can get to that point and kind of back into.

Jason Allison (19:25)
Yeah.

we lost him right when. He was just about to solve all the problems of my life.

Rob Paterson (19:38)
He was gonna solve you.

Wow, I mean, that is a priceless gift.

Jason Allison (19:46)
And I think that's a,

it's priceless because I don't know what it is yet. All right. Well, I'm going to hit pause and we're going to bring him back in.

Rob Paterson (20:01)
So Josh, great to have you back. ⁓ Our listeners don't know this, but there's a storm in your area. We lost you, right? And Jason and I joked a little bit because you were about ready to sort of say something that was gonna fix him forever, like give the magic bullet to sort of help Jason's internal issues. ⁓ so yeah, that was the area that he scored the lowest in and you were kind of given some

Jason Allison (20:03)
you

Josh Kosnick (20:04)
You

Rob Paterson (20:31)
⁓ thoughts in terms of how to how to help with that.

Josh Kosnick (20:34)
Yeah, it was, you know, cause there's three parts to that internal. There's the mental, emotional and physical. So I don't know which parts of Jason's scores got him that lowest score, but let's say it's physical. And the biggest thing with that is, okay, how do I align from where I want to be say legacy wise? And I look at how I want people to speak about me, how I want people to remember me.

and backing into where am I at today? And if that doesn't match, what steps can I start to take to start matching the ideal version of Jason? And it's his ideal version, it's God's ideal version for Jason, not mine, not yours, Rob. And that's why the LQ assessment's so crucial in our lives is it's a mirror.

Right? Because I'm not gonna score that for Jason. His version of his physical health or his internal, as far as mental or emotional health, is his version. So as long you're honest when you score yourself, it's gonna hold up that mirror to you to go, okay, here's where I need to do some work. Here's where I may need a mentor or a coach to help bring me down that bridge a little bit further. And we all need mentoring coaches in our lives. So I have a coach in each of those five bridges.

Jason Allison (21:53)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Kosnick (21:56)
or a mentor in each of those five bridges. Some of them I pay for, some of them I just ⁓ have in my life due to relationships. But there's always someone a little bit further down the bridge than us that we can lean on. And for me in that physical side, I have a physical trainer. For the mental and emotional side, I have a coach. I pay for both of those. And it's all about optimizing who I think God made me to be so that I can be the best for others.

Jason Allison (22:26)
Yeah, that's so good because I know with I was doing a seminar a couple weeks ago with a group of pastors and one of the things that I really, I mean, I kind of just pound them with is you've got to have someone outside of you challenging you and calling you out to something better. And that's in your professional life, right? It's in your personal life. It's in all of those things. And maybe it's one or two, maybe it's a paid for type thing. can coach, you know.

Maybe it's just a couple of good friends who will hold you accountable. But man, I feel like so many pastors end up isolating themselves and then they just sit in their own bubble and they don't ever move beyond that. I know, Rob, I'm not gonna throw you under the bus completely here, but I know like, you've had the health issues, our listeners know all about your hip and all that stuff and that's all great.

But I mean, you have elicited the help of a health coach, you know, over the past six, eight months, whatever. I mean, it's been a, I've seen tremendous difference in that. And it's really just a matter of eating and moving a little bit. And Josh, you write in there about simple things like that. I'm just like, what are some of the things that you've really seen happen, especially when it comes to just taking care of your physical body? You know, how have you seen that help you?

Josh Kosnick (23:48)
Well, so I would assume we're all over the age of 40, right? All right, okay, we're on the same page.

Jason Allison (23:52)
Yeah, Rob and I have top,

Rob Paterson (23:53)
Hahaha.

Jason Allison (23:55)
we've top 50. you know.

Josh Kosnick (23:57)
Okay,

here, but 40 is a big marker for most people. Like I know it was hard on me a little bit, it was harder on my wife. Like 40 tends to be a big marker for people. And I always say now that 40, after age 40, the bigger flex is your physical health. More than a Rolex, more than a house, more than a car. your physical, like there's not many people

that walk into a room and they're over 40 and you're like, dang, they're in great shape. Most of the time we adopt the dad bod. Most of the time we just go, okay, well, I'm older now, I can't keep the weight off, as much as I try or whatever it may be, we kind of just accept that. And I'm not one that will accept anything. Like I just don't accept things how they are.

⁓ So I'll tell you for me personally, I can't speak for others, but I know of others. ⁓ get caught like, here's the coolest compliment I've gotten I think in a while. I have an eight year old son. His friends talk about me like, like dude, your dad is jet. I think that's the coolest compliment that I've gotten from any human being and it's coming from seven, eight year olds, right? Like it.

Rob Paterson (25:22)
Hahaha!

Josh Kosnick (25:24)
And so I am 210 pounds under 10 % body fat is where I keep myself. And that's come with a lot of hard work over the last nine years, because I had an epiphany at 36 that I wasn't living up to the standard that I had once set for myself. And so I've been on that journey for the last nine years of continuing to see what my body is capable of doing. But what it does for you, and I specifically think this on the take physical into mental.

When you realize you can change your body, especially if you've gotten to a point of overweight or gotten to a point where you just, you know, have accepted being bigger than you once were, and you actually change your body, you start to go, I wonder what else I could change in my life. When you see that physical transformation, you start feeling better, you start sleeping better, you see yourself in the mirror and you're like, dang, I look a lot better than I did six months ago. You're like, I wonder what else if I put the work in.

Jason Allison (26:09)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (26:09)
Hmm.

Josh Kosnick (26:23)
spiritually, mentally, emotionally, relationships, whatever work, whatever it may be. You're like, wonder what else I could change in my life. And not to mention all the neurochemicals, the positive neurochemicals that happen when you're working out consistently that actually change your mood, that change your mental wellbeing, that actually can transform your mental health. And you start to notice these things and you're like, okay, great.

Jason Allison (26:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh Kosnick (26:49)
Now I can truly be the best for others that I was meant to be. Now I can walk with a spirit about me into a room of confidence, not arrogance. You know, that true humility, that humility confidence that God tells us to walk with. We can walk into a room and truly be ourselves because we've put in the work and we know who we are and just have a different aura about us.

Rob Paterson (27:14)
Yeah. Josh, when you were talking about the five bridges, you you talked a lot about how we tend to focus on things that really at the end don't matter as much. You know, it's that connection with God. It's being sorted out ourselves. ⁓ It's the key relationships in life that really matter. And I love on page 84, you talk about how legacy isn't something you leave behind.

but it's something you leave behind in other people. ⁓ Just talk a little bit more about that and what success really like looks like to you.

Josh Kosnick (27:54)
Yeah, so that's such a great question. The best example, and I talked about my father-in-law in the book and the legacy that he's left behind. Now, I will say like, he's left behind some trinkets, like a knife of his, a boots of his, a car of his that I get to remember him by. Those are things. But what I truly remember is how he operated in his life, how he pursued Jesus, how he treated others.

And those are the things that I'm passing to my kids, his grandkids, right? So same thing for me is I'm on a mission to help people eliminate regret in their life. If I had 41 when I lost, you know, quote unquote, everything business wise, if I had lost my life that day, like I would have had regret because I wasn't fully pursuing the relationships that mattered most to me, because I wasn't fully pursuing God the way I wanted to be.

Even my mental and emotional and physical well-being, I was good, but not great. Right? So I would have had some regrets. So for me is eliminating regret, not only in my own life, but helping others eliminate it in theirs. There's so much, so many high performing pastors, entrepreneurs, business owners that I, that I get the privilege to coach that have, sometimes come to me broken because they see me get out of brokenness and they want to know how to do that. And where they focused on so much is their

their careers, their goals, their pursuits outside of God. And it's led them to a broken marriage. It's led them to a strange relationship with their kids. It's led them to alcoholism or drugs or pornography. That's a mask to the true pain. And the true pain is they know that they're not living into what God intended them to live into. They missed the mark in some way. And so for me it's like, okay, because I was in my financial planning world,

Jason Allison (29:41)
Mm.

Josh Kosnick (29:48)
We studied what the top five regrets of the dying were. And the top five regrets of the dying are all things they wish they would have done, not things they did do.

So if we can eliminate that inaction, if we can eliminate ⁓ starting to take risks for themselves earlier on in life to eliminate that regret, ⁓ that would be one thing for me is I want people to talk about me. Knowing me helped them become a better person. Like if that was said about me on my eulogy and on the day of my death, like I did my job. I lived God's purpose in me.

Jason Allison (30:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love that because I know for me about six years ago, it wasn't nearly, I don't think quite as catastrophic in my life as it potentially was for you and all the things that happened to you. know, the church that I planted, ⁓ I ended up having to fold it into a new church plant, hand leadership over ⁓ to a young guy to, you know, and help him launch and so forth. But, you know, I had leaders who had stabbed me in the back. had

You know, I was, I, I reached out to a coach who he and our, he and I are now really good friends. And, he said, after our first call, he said, man, I was really afraid you were going to just drive off a bridge or something after our first call. So, you know, I understand that, but as I'm in the midst of that, one of the things now, five years removed, I'm looking back going through that. I really discovered my calling and my purpose because I realized I was trying to be something that I wasn't.

And so this really reaffirmed and as I was reading your book, you talk about activating dreams and stuff. it's funny because my six word purpose statement and I've been doing this for three years, talking about it for three years is, I exist to help people achieve their God given dreams. And so everything I do is about helping people achieve those things. ⁓ so when I read on page 139, you make the statement that you would rather be an impactor.

than an influencer. And man, could you unpack that for just a minute? Because I stopped there and just had to think about that one for a minute.

Josh Kosnick (32:03)
Yeah, so think about the pastoral world right now, because it exists in the business coaching. I don't know what else you wanna call it, but it exists in our world, the same way it does in the pastoral world, is there's a lot of influencers with big followings. And some of these influencers, and I won't call them out by name, pastors or in my world business coaching speaking, that are not living godly lives, that are not.

living to the words that they're speaking, but they sound really good on social media. And it's a lot of times weak men attracting weaker men. Because every man is searching for that strength and they're kind of portraying strength. And it's that arrogance that we talked about earlier, right? And arrogance, I truly believe the definition is ⁓ inner lack of security.

outwardly displayed. And whereas true confidence, you don't have to outwardly display that you walk into a room and you have that humble aura about you. Like you already know what you've done, you know what you've accomplished, you've you don't have to tell the world that. And so we think about these big followings, I don't need a huge following. I get hit up daily because of my coaching and speaking by online marketers to hey, you're

Jason Allison (33:02)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (33:03)
Mm.

Josh Kosnick (33:28)
Your content is so good, you should have way more followers and employ us and we'll blow you up. I'm like, I don't want fake followers and I don't need a ton of followers. What I need is to be a person of impact and those that God puts in front of me or need me, they will find me. And I'm not saying that I'm not trying to grow my business, but I'm not gonna grow it in some false way. I'm just not gonna do it. So I wanna be of impact, not of influence. And we see too often that,

Jason Allison (33:45)
Mm.

Yeah.

Josh Kosnick (33:58)
⁓ people get influence before their character is built up. So if their character isn't as strong or high as their influence, that's where the falls really happen. It's like your character needs to exceed your influence, otherwise you are set up for a mighty fall.

Jason Allison (34:03)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (34:03)
Mm.

Jason Allison (34:09)
Mm-hmm.

We've seen that a lot. All right, Rob.

Rob Paterson (34:18)
Yeah, for sure. Josh is as I'm listening, I love this ⁓ conversation. I just love your honesty and your vulnerability just about your story and you some of the ups and downs throughout your life. I know for me as a pastor when I was in my twenties, I thought my marriage was perfect and I had about, you know, zero people that wanted to come talk to me or my wife and I about how to have a successful marriage.

And then through our 30s, we hit some rough patches and we did some counseling and we really had to figure some things out and fight for our marriage. And as we started to share kind of where we had gotten to just through simple things like poor communication and how we navigated to maybe the healthiest place we'd ever been, man, people were coming out of the woodwork because they had questions and they wanted our help.

And in that exact same way, feel like as I'm hearing Josh, share, it seems like, you know, failures seem to fuel you. You know, you're like, Hey, like this taught me something and I'm going to be a different person and a better person. And anyone who decides to lead in their life is going to face failures and pitfalls, you know, and all that kind of stuff. So I I'm wondering if you could just talk about that. Like how can leaders tap into.

I tried to do something, it really didn't work out, I messed it up, I failed. But how can that really become a springboard for greater success?

Josh Kosnick (35:52)
The greatest winners are the greatest leaders you've ever seen in your life have failed more than any failure has ever failed. You think about those commercials from ⁓ Michael Jordan or Kobe, I can't remember which one, but like they've missed more shots than they've ever made, right? Like the greatest baseball players ⁓ average 300. That means seven out of 10 times they're out.

Jason Allison (36:12)
Yeah.

Josh Kosnick (36:22)
Right? So it's the willingness to step into the fire and fail and stumble and crawl sometimes and, and sometimes even curl up in a ball and cry, but then keep moving forward. Because when I was in my pit as despair, like I put in my book, like I was in the fetal position numerous days. Like I did not know what was happening. All I had faith in was that God had a bigger, like I literally said to him, I was like, God, you must have a big plan.

Jason Allison (36:35)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Kosnick (36:52)
to put me through this, like there must be a big plan. Whereas others could take that and go, God, why would you do this to me? I just kept saying, I know you have a bigger plan for me to put me through this. And so it's one of those things where you have to be willing to stumble and getting past yourself because that's where the lessons are. And like, think about this. So I sold that business for eight figures, even though it was a stumble.

Like even though it was perceived as a failure, I was fired. ⁓

I've known so many millionaires, multimillionaires that have filed for bankruptcy and then two years later become a millionaire again. So like, here's the thing, like when you climb the mountain, you're learning lessons along the way. Just because you fall off the mountain, maybe even to the pit of despair like I did, you didn't lose those lessons. In fact, you learned more. So the next time you start the climb, you're not starting at base camp zero.

Jason Allison (37:49)
Mm.

Josh Kosnick (37:55)
you're starting at base camp four. And that's how those multimillionaires that had a fall and filed for bankruptcy get that. Like for example, if we said, you know what, like the reparations conversation, if we gave or if we wipe the debt clean from everyone in the U S and we said, you know what, everyone gets a clean break. Everyone starts over debts clean. The businesses and the multimillionaires would make infinitely more money.

with doing that because everyone that doesn't know how to manage their money would just go out and spend it again. And everyone that knows how to get money knows exactly, they're gonna go right back in debt and the people that are millionaires or know how to run businesses will get infinitely more rich. Like you learn lessons from the climb and then you learn from the fall and you don't start at base camp zero, you start way up the mountain again. But you're only gonna learn those lessons if you have the courage and willingness to take the climb in the first place.

Rob Paterson (38:27)
Yeah, right back in debt.

Jason Allison (38:46)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:52)
Mm.

Jason Allison (38:54)
So, I mean, I think our listeners are probably keenly aware that you are a type A driven personality. ⁓ And that's what makes you who you are and why you are, you know, succeeding in the way you are, why you're driving the way you are. And I think it's great. And I'm so glad God wired you that way. But I also know a lot of pastors who are not wired as this type A driven personality, but

they feel stuck leading their congregation, like they just can't get over the hump. I literally work with pastors who are in that situation daily. And so I'm wondering, how would you maybe encourage a pastor who is a leader, and they have leadership gifts, but they are not that, you know, see the mountain, take the mountain, see the next mountain kind of mentality, ⁓ and they're trying to lead without

And I don't know, where would you start in helping to somewhat light a fire under their butt, but also acknowledging God has wired you a certain way? How do you learn to work within that?

Josh Kosnick (40:04)
So I get the opportunity to, that's a great question. I get the opportunity to work with all types of leaders and not all are type A driven like me. But the best leaders that aren't type A driven find others around them, whether it's a coach, it could be a council at the church, whatever it may be, that has different gifts that help breathe life into their gifts. So they can still be a great leader without being the type A take charge. What they gotta get though is someone

that is type A take charge that helps them see the bigger picture, right? So they may be a doer, they may be a nurturer and they're still a great leader. But if they don't have someone, like if God calls them to grow the church, to grow and take the mountain and they don't have that skillset, they need to find people within the congregation or find a mentor or coach that has that skillset to help them take that climb. So for example, I'll just use myself as,

Like, so you see me as the type A visionary, which I am, I'm 98 % visionary on this EOS quiz that we give a lot of businesses. I suck at organization. I suck at seeing point A to point B. I'm just like, no, like, let's just charge at it. We're gonna hit it. Like, and if we don't, we're gonna be further along. Like, I don't see the path. So I hired someone who's ⁓ the exact opposite of me. I'm all gas, no brakes.

She is, well, actually, let's take a beat here and think through this a little bit further, right? So like, we gotta know our skillsets so much that we can hire to our weaknesses. And that's the bigger thing there that I help a lot of leadership teams create is I was in the DEI world because our company was kind of forcing upon us, but I was like, I had a different perspective. like, I could hire people that don't look like me different.

Jason Allison (41:40)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (41:44)
Mm.

Josh Kosnick (42:00)
Religion different sex different sexual orientation, but if they all think like me that's not diversity What I really need is diversity and thought I need people that think differently than me I need people that have different strengths and weaknesses than I have that's diversity to me Because that's that's where the leader shows up with humility and goes, you know what? I'm not good at this, but you are great at it and I need that at my table

Jason Allison (42:07)
Mm.

Yeah, that's great. like, you know, Rob, as much as I hate to give you a compliment, ⁓ you know, when I look at, just being part of your team, seeing how they interact and so forth, you know, that's something I know you've done is build a team where they all excel in areas different than you. And so I think that's been a great thing. And I think, you know, Josh, being able to help a leader of any kind, but in our world pastors be confident enough.

to bring someone in who excels in things they don't, that seems to be a big fear that pastors have. They're afraid to bring someone in who might be a leader that could help take things to the next level. I think a lot of pastors, honestly, they're afraid they're gonna get left behind.

Josh Kosnick (43:18)
It's not a threat, it baffles my mind and it's not just pastors, it's business leaders as well. What you have to realize that is the ego, the enemy talking to you. That is not God. God is abundant and therefore you should be abundant. That is 100 % ego, 100 % the enemy feeding you lies. It is not a threat to your authority, to your position, to God.

Jason Allison (43:20)
I

Josh Kosnick (43:46)
to have other brilliant people around you. That's what you want. So it absolutely baffles me when I hear leaders or pastors or whatever get into their ego or pride thinking like that, because it's not a threat at all. I want the most brilliant people way smarter than me around the table, because that means we can grow. I don't want some peons that just follow everything that I say and don't challenge my thought, because we're not gonna grow that

Rob Paterson (44:06)
Mm.

Josh Kosnick (44:17)
We're not gonna get the best ideas. We're not going to move about things more intelligently or efficiently. ⁓ So I get it, I see it as well in the business world. It just baffles me when the people, especially in the pastoral world, get in their ego and pride and not see the bigger picture.

Rob Paterson (44:37)
Yeah, Josh, thank you so much for your time today. I just I love what you've been sharing with us and with our listeners. I just have one last question. You know, we were talking about the the the bridges and the first one just being that relationship with God, you know, and how important that is. And obviously, you know, you're a person of faith and that that guides your life as well. You know, and pastors like our

primary audience are the ones that are helping with this, right? Helping people make sure that connection is real and growing and active and those types of things. You know, maybe just give our listeners, like, is there one or two things that you would say, man, if pastors in our world today with all the things we're facing, if they would just do a little bit more of this and a little bit less of this, man, I could see even greater impact.

Josh Kosnick (45:36)
You know, we talked about this before getting on the show and I think it bears bringing up pastors need business people and business people need pastors.

Jason Allison (45:45)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Kosnick (45:47)
You mentioned that some pastors are scared to talk to people like me, right? And I would just say that maybe it's the confidence or maybe it's the success that threatens or perhaps scares you, whatever it may be. It doesn't have to be those two things. I need you as much as you need me. And we both need God even more than we need each other, right? So I heard this analogy a long time ago around ⁓

marriage and using the hanger. Right, so think about a hanger that you hang clothes on and I start on this end, my wife starts on this end. And as we grow closer and God's up top, the actual hanger. As we grow closer to God, we grow closer together. And I think that analogy plays really well with all relationships. As we're growing closer to God and really following his word, not our interpretation of his word, but his word, ⁓

Jason Allison (46:34)
Hmm.

Josh Kosnick (46:45)
we grow closer to the people that we are in communal relationships with, whether that be a business person in the church, whether that be your spouse, your kids, if we're all pursuing that relationship with God and growing closer to God, we're actually growing closer together as well. And so I just wanna, the pastor's listening, I need you. I need you to help me grow closer to God. don't.

get the opportunity to study the word the way that you study the word. I didn't go to become a pastor. haven't gotten my theological degree. Maybe you have. I need your help to grow closer to God. That's the ultimate goal for both of us. And by doing so, what I realize now is my pastoral service is being the leader in God and

giving my testimony to the people that I have the opportunity to serve. And so as you help me grow closer to God, I help the people in my sphere grow closer to God. And conversely, my skillset can help you grow a church that grows closer to God. And if we do that together, we do what God calls us to do is bring people closer to Jesus, to know Jesus, to even hear the word of God and to impact their lives.

Jason Allison (48:10)
That is great. mean, I really do appreciate that. I appreciate the challenge of that because I think that's where ⁓ too often pastors never get challenged. You know, the people they try to be nice to them and and and we need some people to step up and yeah, yeah, light a little fire under our ass. I think that's a good thing. Yeah. ⁓

Rob Paterson (48:24)
Ha

Kick us in the butt.

Josh Kosnick (48:32)
Well, I think real quick, Jason, I was just reading

Romans. I was reading Romans the last week, kind of diving into that. And ⁓ Paul used the analogy of being kind of like a velvet brick.

And at least in my translation, I'm reading the John, NIV John Maxwell Leadership Bible. And Paul was referred to kind of as a velvet brick by Maxwell, I believe. And ⁓ that's how I see myself. And I've been told that I'm a hard exterior, soft interior type of guy. And that velvet brick analogy really stuck to me because I'm not here

Jason Allison (48:48)
Yeah.

Josh Kosnick (49:15)
to be necessarily nice to people. I want to tell you the truth, even if it's hard to hear. I want to tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. And when I'm able to do that, and it doesn't mean that I don't do it in a kind way, I try to be as kind as I possibly can in giving you that truth. But in doing so, then we can grow. If I'm here just to placate you or tell you all the nice things or be intimidated by you because you're my pastor and I think you know everything, I'm not helping you.

So I think more people need to be that velvet brick.

Jason Allison (49:49)
I love that. that's ⁓ we heard it the other day. Someone was saying we need to be more like avocados soft on the outside, but as a firm, you know, interior, which is a velvet brick. I love that. ⁓ Yeah. Well, man, Josh, we really do appreciate your time. We appreciate that you wrote the book. I will put in the show notes the best way to, you know, find the book. And again, you know, it's called the Kairos code.

Josh Kosnick (50:02)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (50:15)
by Josh Kosnick and they can in there. I know there's QR codes and stuff to link to resources. So it's been a tremendous help to me just over the last little bit reading it. so thank you for your time, for the energy and for allowing God to use you and the way he's gifted you, man.

Josh Kosnick (50:33)
Thank you, it's been a pleasure guys. And remember, hey, since Rob called you out Jason, that LQ assessment, it's meant to be done at least yearly. Check your progress, I think it's free. So like, just if you're working on something, let's check your progress and make sure you're continuing to move the needle down those bridges.

Jason Allison (50:50)
Yes, I appreciate that. I may even book that free 45 minute call. ⁓

Josh Kosnick (50:56)
Sounds good.

Jason Allison (50:59)
our listeners. We just want to say thank you and we hope that you'll take a minute to like and subscribe and we hope that you have an amazing week. Take care.