Get Past Your Past with Jason VanRuler

Summary

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Rob and Jason engage in a deep conversation with therapist Jason Van Ruler about overcoming past trauma, the importance of counseling, and the role of love in healing. They discuss the journey to rediscovering control in one's life, the significance of being open to change, and the necessity of connection to self, God, and others. Jason shares insights from his own experiences and emphasizes that life doesn't have to stop after a hard season, encouraging listeners to view their experiences as bookmarks rather than bookends.

Find the book here: Get Past Your Past 

Learn more about Jason VanRuler

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Welcome back everybody to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. Rob, man, it's good to see you. I think it's been, it's been at least a full week, hadn't it? Since we've seen each other in any way, or form.

Rob Paterson (00:13)
I think so, we've texted a little bit, but that's it.

Jason Allison (00:16)
Yeah, yeah. The inappropriate memes are about all that I've seen from you lately. So that's always good. But yeah, man, how you been? Like it's getting cold here and the golf season is winding down. So, I don't know what to do.

Rob Paterson (00:28)
You know, it's interesting because usually it's in November, if I haven't gotten a deer, I'm like every free kind of moment I'm deer hunting. And this year I got a deer my very first hunt and I didn't, you know, I did not hunt early in deer season and in bow season because it was so warm. And then it started to cool off and it was actually after our lead team meeting last month.

Jason Allison (00:45)
I know.

Hmm.

Rob Paterson (00:58)
It kind of was a cooler evening and I got home, dropped the guys off at the office and I'm just like, I'm going hunting and shot a monster buck. And so that has allowed me to really enjoy the end of the golf season. And believe it or not, in mid November, when you and I played with a whole bunch of guys from my church, you know, two or three weeks ago, one of them saw this thing and there's an outing at Bentree down in Sunbury. ⁓

Jason Allison (01:04)
You

yes.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (01:26)
and it's tomorrow and we are entered. So we're gonna play in this chili, like, cause I think you play and then you eat chili. And it's kind of expensive for an outing in mid November. So I'm hoping they have some cool prizes too, cause we're planning on winning.

Jason Allison (01:29)
Nice. yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah,

yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, they'll have cool prizes and I think I played in that one year. It's fun. It is a good one. I supposed to be decent weather too, but you know, I know. Yeah, the last time I played last week, it was really rough. I was I was in Las Vegas and play it painted desert and you know, had to deal with the who's getting close to 80 degrees and it was really just so hard and I was thinking about you, Rob.

Rob Paterson (01:49)
Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, you're dead to me now. For

all of our listeners, this is the final podcast episode of the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason.

Jason Allison (02:09)
Yeah.

Oh, well,

the good news is today we have a guest who is a therapist and something tells me we may need it. But yes, I am really excited today. We have with us Jason Van Ruler and the one sentence bio I have for you is you're a therapist, coach, speaker and author dedicated to impacting those who make an impact. And you've got a long list of letters after your name. You're you're an author, a nationally recognized speaker.

Rob Paterson (02:18)
Ha

Jason Allison (02:39)
you've got all this stuff going for you, but Jason, the most important thing is you have the best first name of, anyone in the country. So, Hey man, welcome to the podcast, to the conversation. You might end up having to charge us for some session time, but Hey, welcome to the podcast.

Jason VanRuler (02:56)
Well, thanks for what you're having me. I'm running the meter already. So I mean, you're going to bill. Don't worry about it. I've got a 30-day turnaround. But yeah, you'll be billed for all of this. But I'm excited to be talking with you both.

Jason Allison (02:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, we are excited. You your book Get Past Your Past, which came out a year and half, two years ago, said 2023. I like how facing your broken places leads to true connection is the subtitle. And we'll put a link in the show notes and everything so people can go get it. I've got my copy in hand and I

I enjoyed it. I mean, it was, it was, it was challenging in a few places. I'm not going to lie. Uh, there's a couple of places I put it down and said, you know, screw you. I don't know if I want to do that or not, but, but, you know, I think that's a good, good. Well, you, a mission accomplished, right? Uh, tell us just, you know, sorry, listeners know who you are, where you're from, like, uh, what, give us a little, just a picture of who is Jason van Ruler.

Jason VanRuler (03:38)
That's great. That's what I was going for.

Yeah, well, mean, the short version is I live in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. So I'm a Midwest guy, born, raised here, lived here most of my life. I'm married for about 19 years with three kids. And I have been a therapist now for, I think, just over 13 years, but always wanted to be. So when I was a kid, I had a journal. And in the journal, which should already tell you something about me, in the journal, as an eight-year-old, I wrote, I want to be a psychologist.

Jason Allison (04:17)
Ha ha.

Jason VanRuler (04:23)
I want to have this kind of office and I want to write a book someday. And, you know, I think I did that because I already dressed like a counselor. And so there just weren't a lot of career options already when you're wearing corduroys and penny loafers. But I just I always tell people like I knew what I felt called to do. And then when I heard you could get paid for overthinking, I was in. I was like, this is an easy yes. And so.

grew up, what I would call a difficult childhood and a lot of messy parts, became an owner of a recruiting company and then got married and thought, hey, I'm gonna make this therapist thing come true. And that leads us to today.

Jason Allison (04:59)
Wow, that's a lot.

Rob Paterson (04:59)
Yeah, that's,

Jason VanRuler (05:01)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (05:01)
yeah, that's, that's so good. You know, Jason, as I, as when I first saw your book, when my copy arrived, I love that title, Get Past Your Past. And actually at my church, we're in a series right now where we're largely walking through the book of Jonah. And the title of the teaching series is called To Hell with Hesitation. You know, like God has called us to

Jason VanRuler (05:22)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (05:25)
And yet so many times we're like, I'll get to that, you know, and we just sort of live these lives where we're stuck and we hesitate. And actually last weekend, the whole idea was overcoming your past and how a lot, one of the reasons that we do get stuck and we do hesitate is because we have trauma in our past that we, if we don't, you know, heal from, if we don't deal with, we stay stuck and we really don't live into the fullness of what God has called us to.

So I don't know kind of what the impetuses were in your life for writing this book, but man, like tell us a little bit about that. What's the backstory that really inspired you to write this book?

Jason VanRuler (06:02)
Yeah, I I think I did the thing where I came out of a childhood that was really challenging. And I did the thing that, know, angsty teenagers do when you say, you know, I'm leaving and I'll never be like this and you just wait and see. And then it took about four years and I was just like this. You wait and see. And so I kind of found myself in this position of like, man, I kind of like swore off all this stuff. But I just walked the opposite way on the same path. And it's a circle.

Rob Paterson (06:20)
you

Jason VanRuler (06:30)
And so I'm now in the same spot I left. And when I was there, I kind of had this decision to make. so, I mean, it's a little cliche, but I had this like man in the mirror moment where I was just like, actually, you know, before I think I could blame other people for where I was at. But now this feels like I'm an adult and it's on me. And so what do I do with that? And so that really sparked some growth and, and, you know, a lot of work and therapy and all that fun stuff.

Jason Allison (06:30)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (06:30)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (06:32)
one.

Mm.

Jason VanRuler (06:56)
But I think as soon as I got the chance to write a book, what I wanted to try to do was help people skip that part a little bit or expedite it. Because I spent a number of years in that season and I look back and I go, man, I wish that was less.

Jason Allison (07:07)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (07:11)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (07:11)
Hmm.

Wow. That's good. Um, you know, you don't have to, I know you recount some of it in the book and so you don't have to go through the whole story. But I mean, you had a very difficult childhood and ended up in some really dark places. Um, I don't know, maybe hit a few highlights so people understand the, the, the, you know, the book is so positive. And so, you know, like it really points you forward in ways.

If they don't understand where you came from, it may not be as impactful to them. I don't know, take a couple of minutes, you know, do as much as you want, but share like kind of where some of this knowledge, this wisdom came out of the pain it came out of.

Jason VanRuler (07:52)
Yeah, and I mean, I think that's a good point is like a lot of that wisdom does usually come out of pain, unfortunately, right, right. A lot of times the wisest people that I know also have had the most pain in their life. And so, you know, I think for me it was, you know, up until about age eight, you know, about when I was journaling, parents were married, just had this kind of idyllic childhood. And then they, they got divorced. And at that time, my life kind of went from idyllic to something totally different. And so,

Jason Allison (07:57)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (07:57)
you

Jason VanRuler (08:19)
moved about 18 times before I graduated high school. There was, you know, all the abuses, and, kind of had a lot of trauma that went with it. And so it just put me in a place where, know, by the time I'm a teenager, I'm already smoking. I'm drinking occasionally. I was more of a social drinker at 16, but, know, drinking occasionally and, kind of getting in this position of like, I'm just going exactly back to the stuff I hated that it came from.

Jason Allison (08:46)
Wow.

Jason VanRuler (08:48)
And

so it was kind of in that darkness where it was just like, man, is this what God called me to? No doubt I've had some bumps and it's been rough. And I always just kind of put out there, like, my story is important to me. And I say it was difficult for me. But I know there's people with far more significant experiences. But in my life and my story, these are pretty big deals. And so do I learn to live in the darkness or do I take a step in the light?

Jason Allison (08:54)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jason VanRuler (09:14)
And I think for a long time, the darkness felt pretty comfortable.

Rob Paterson (09:17)
Yeah, yeah. Jason is as you're talking, I'm thinking of myself and I was even in this space. So I mean, you alluded to the fact that just for some of your issues, you have been through counseling. ⁓ You do counseling, right? Like you're trained and licensed and all that kind of stuff. And I think sometimes, you know, for our listeners, pastors, leaders in the church, sometimes

Jason Allison (09:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason VanRuler (09:32)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (09:44)
There's some question mark around that and I think that happens for a number of reasons. I think sometimes it's our faith and we're like, man, Jesus and I can figure this out. We can get through this. We don't need kind of those other types of things. I know I felt like that in my 20s. Like anytime I felt like my wife and I were bumping into walls, it's like, we're good people. We love each other. We love Jesus. We can figure this out. Now, 10, 15 years in when I started going,

You know what, if we could have figured this out, we likely would have figured it out by now. You know, and so I went from in my twenties being very resistant to the thought of counseling, mostly because I was young and dumb enough to think, I don't want people knowing my business. I don't, know, that kind of thing, to in my thirties, really embracing that. And my wife and I, know,

like just to benefited from it significantly. And so we are super big fans, you know, of counseling and counselors. And since then, I can't tell you how many friends I've had come to me and they're like, hey, wanna go golfing? I'm like, sure. And they'll come literally from out of town, even out of state, they're passing through and it's usually, you know, kind of in the middle of the back nine where they're like, hey, just randomly, you know, like you and yeah.

Jason Allison (10:58)
You

Jason VanRuler (11:00)
asking for a friend. Yeah,

I've got this friend.

Jason Allison (11:01)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:02)
You and Bethany

went through some counseling, right? And I'm like, yeah, and it was awesome. And here's, here's my, what my mindset used to be. And here's what it is now because of what we've experienced. And, and you know, there was nothing that we experienced in counseling that was magical, you know, like that someone said words that we'd never thought of before and everything was changed. But man, just having a consistent trained wise voice, being able to speak into.

us individually and as a couple, you know, really made a huge difference over time. And so I'm just, you know, for people who might be listening, who might be like, like Jason said, yeah, you know what, they do need to pray more and they just need to like work harder and figure it out. You know, as someone who has both benefited from counseling and offers this, you know, what would you say to somebody who might be just at the age or stage of life for any number of reasons where they're a little apprehensive about it?

Jason VanRuler (12:00)
Yeah, I mean, I number one, would just say I totally get it. And it's a yes and yes, you need to pray. Yes, you need to draw closer to Jesus. And can someone else help expedite the process? And so what I've seen is it's kind of like for the longest time, we rejected therapy. And was like, well, we don't want to do that at all. And now we've swung to the other side and we're like, everything should be therapy. And it's like, well, we can just be balanced. Like we can, you know, we can draw closer to Jesus and get some help occasionally. And both can exist.

Rob Paterson (12:29)
That's really helpful.

Jason Allison (12:30)
Yeah. That, you know, that's really refreshing because I, I've seen both extremes and I feel like it, when I'm, it's, it's almost like, you know, you go to a surgeon, the answer is always surgery, right? If you, if you go to a chiropractor, the answer is always, you know, some type of an adjustment. Yeah. You go to a therapist, the answer is always, you need more therapy, but, but what you're saying is yes. And there are ways to, to move forward in your life.

Rob Paterson (12:46)
and adjustment.

Jason Allison (12:58)
You don't have to run everything by the therapist, you know, type stuff.

Jason VanRuler (13:03)
mean, this is

bad for business. So I hope you guys don't share this with other therapists. I mean, that would be my, my hope. But I mean, I'm just gonna say, at least my take on therapy is like, you also need time to practice, right? So the role of a therapist is not to create dependence. It's to encourage growth and growth needs practice. So I think if we do it well, it's like, yeah, you get help when you need it. And then you go live it out. But I think I think Jesus is the constant.

Jason Allison (13:07)
No.

Rob Paterson (13:07)
You

Jason Allison (13:15)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (13:15)
Mm.

Jason Allison (13:19)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason VanRuler (13:30)
you that's the part where it's like, if you want to practice dependence, that's where you start.

Rob Paterson (13:35)
Yeah, I've told people for a long time now. I think everybody needs a care team. You know, you're not going to come to your pastor when you need a total hip replacement, right? You're not going to go to your surgeon when you need some theological counsel or some prayers, typically, you know, and so we all need multiple people in our lives that we can go to, you know, depending on what we're facing and what we're trying to figure out. I love that. That's just

Jason Allison (13:51)
Yeah.

Jason VanRuler (13:52)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (14:02)
Again, like Jason said, such a balanced thing. And those balanced things are usually way closer to the bullseye than all of us kind of touting our extremes.

Jason Allison (14:13)
Yeah, so in your book, you get back to the book here for just a minute. You you basically divided it into three parts to get past your past. It's rediscovering control, overcoming circumstances and embracing your connection. I'm just curious. Let's just start with that first one. Rediscovering your control. I mean, like, what do you mean by that? What does that look like in real life?

to rediscover your control.

Jason VanRuler (14:38)
Yeah, I mean, I think so much of it actually ties into what we just talked about with balance, right? So a lot of times if a person's been through a difficult thing, right, or a messy thing, we kind of take one of two stances, right? So one of the stances is, have no control, the world's against me, I can't do anything about it, right? The other stances, I've been hurt before and felt out of control, so I ought to control everything. Okay, well, neither one are especially helpful to live in.

Jason Allison (15:01)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (15:01)
Mm.

Jason VanRuler (15:04)
And so what I'm really trying to get at is how do I understand what can be controlled, what's within my control and what isn't? Because what I'm trying to help people do is to have agency and authority in their own life. But to do that, you have to know what you can actually change.

Rob Paterson (15:20)
Hmm. My oldest son is a junior in college and for the last maybe six months, he has used that word agency over and over again. And he's always been a very capable person throughout his life, you know, at all stages, but to hear him say that, and he says it with kind of his eyes wide open, like, dad, like I'm learning that I do have agency and I can.

move through this world and I can say things and do things that are going to have impact and results, you know? And so that's like a really cool thing. And yet I think of this as a recovering, a little bit of, you know, kind of a control freak sometimes where I want to kind of manipulate outcomes and do things. And I would say the last 15 or so years, I've like,

God, I'm gonna work a lot harder to trust you more and let you do what you want as opposed to me trying to get the outcome I think we should land at. And so I know for me, like in seasons where it seems like things are going well, my posture a lot of times is, God, I just don't wanna mess it up. Like I'm here and I really do want you to lead. And so I'm just thinking like, how does this idea of rediscovering control, how does this apply?

to people in like a pastor in the church or a leader in the church and can you go through and do this work while you're sort of leading a congregation and sort of feeling all that weight and pressure? What would you say to that?

Jason VanRuler (16:49)
Yeah, mean, absolutely. I would argue your leadership depends on it. Right. So we can't we can't lead people to a different place of change if we don't understand ourselves and we haven't changed. And so the thing is, is like we have to do that internal work. And I think, you know, really, you if we think about it symbolically, it just it just comes down to open and closed doors. We just have to get really good at identifying what's open, what's closed. And and that's control. Right. Is that if the doors open, we can walk through it or not.

Rob Paterson (16:52)
Hmm.

Jason VanRuler (17:17)
And if it's closed, do we honor the fact that it's closed? You know, there's been a lot of doors in my life that have been closed by God that I tried to jimmy the lock, right? Where I'm just like, hey, you I know God that you think I shouldn't do this, but I got a better idea. And so the start of growth for us is just kind of saying like, what have I been taught about the world and what control do I have to change some of these things? And what do I want to change? And then I would add, if we're a faith person, that other layer is,

Jason Allison (17:21)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (17:26)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (17:41)
Mm.

Jason VanRuler (17:45)
Where is God calling me to look?

Jason Allison (17:46)
What are some things that you found can keep people stuck in their past? Just some examples of, I've just noticed this kind of thing. Man, people get stuck there, and they really have to work hard to get through it. And I mean, don't have anything in mind. I'm just curious. Have you seen any trends or any things that really stick out?

Jason VanRuler (18:07)
Yeah, I if I think through the leadership lens, one of the places people get stuck the most and the longest is when a lesson that was taught to them early in childhood actually brings them success. OK, so to unpack that, if if a lesson I learned in my childhood is I have to perform for love, right, so I have to earn love. What's problematic about that is if you perform as an adult, you're probably going to be successful.

Jason Allison (18:36)
Yeah.

Jason VanRuler (18:37)
If you work really, really hard to earn people's love, you're probably going to get a long ways. But internally, you're going to be stuck. And so now we have this problem of, hey, it looks great on paper, Jason, but I'm unhappy. And so I see people stuck there because they're like, even though it's an unhealthy message, it actually served me pretty well up until now.

Jason Allison (18:45)
you

Rob Paterson (18:46)
No.

Jason Allison (18:52)
Yeah.

Yeah. That's one I'm going to have to take a bill from you on that one because I know that's a thing that I have wrestled with. And it's not even that my parents taught me I have to perform to be loved, but just my personality and such is, I want everybody to like me all the time. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:01)
Yeah.

Jason VanRuler (19:22)
Is that too much to ask for? I don't think so. You know, they just have to love me always. That's it.

Jason Allison (19:28)
Yeah.

And, and, I will, you know, just about kill myself doing stuff to try to get everyone to like me more. and, so wrestling through that though, is, you know, I can get stuck in that cycle and it can, I can look like I'm very successful on the outside, but inside, like you said, I'm, just, it, feels like, it feels terrible. and so figuring, and as pastors, I know that's one thing a lot of pastors deal with.

I mean, that's why we got into this. A lot of us, wanted to help people and we wanted people to feel like we were helpful. What are some things that maybe you've seen work in helping people address that issue?

Jason VanRuler (20:03)
Yeah, it kind of flies against what you would expect and it's going to sound selfish, but it's we do the best workout overflow. So if we're healthy and we're taking good care of ourselves and we're in a really good spot, we can then create a lot of impact. But what a lot of people believe is they create impact first, then take care of themselves. And so they're always giving out a deficit. And when you give out a deficit, it opens the door to bitterness and resentment because we actually don't have it to give.

Right. And so the kind of the messaging is how do I get to a place where I'm sitting in a healthy enough spot that it's overflowed to give to others because it was overflowed. There's not expectation attached to it. Right. It's just I have it to give. Right. If I've if I've got millions of dollars and you ask me for 10 I can give you $10 all day long and never really feel bad about it. Right. But if I have nine dollars and you ask me for 10 I can give that to you once.

Rob Paterson (20:40)
Mmm.

Jason VanRuler (21:00)
if I'm lucky and then I'm empty. And so I think the thing for leaders is sometimes we have to conceptualize our approach a little differently and it feels selfish. A lot of leaders I talk to are like, I don't think I can have wants or I don't think I can have needs. And I just go, hey, you know, I hear that, but is that what you tell somebody if you gave them advice? And if the answer is no, then why is it different for you?

Jason Allison (21:01)
Yeah.

Wow.

Rob Paterson (21:23)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. We actually had a guest on in the last couple months and he talked about this thing. There was a brand new idea for me where he said, you know, depending on like how much stress you have in life, your replenishment needs to match or exceed that. And I think, you know, just like you're saying, like sometimes in the most busy, stressful seasons of life, we feel like it's very selfish to.

go golfing or to take a break or to hang out with our kids or whatever. And just his encouragement to say, oh no, no, no, no, no. The more stressful things are, the more you need to prioritize these things that fill you back up so that you can manage that well as opposed to running out of fuel and sort of burning up. So I like that we're hearing this kind of consistently from people who know what they're talking about.

Jason Allison (22:12)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (22:15)
So I really, really appreciate that. Jason, to kind of go into the next section of your book, this idea of overcoming your circumstances and maybe Jason, Allison, maybe we should hit pause here because I think for you and I, the meter keeps running and going up. So maybe we need to stop and talk to the other Jason about a sponsorship. We don't really need anything other than, you know, kind of like it to match kind of the counseling we're going to need. But

Jason Allison (22:31)
you

Jason VanRuler (22:39)
I like it.

Jason Allison (22:39)
No.

Rob Paterson (22:41)
You know, just this idea of like for people, know, we all have stuff, right? We all have things in our past. And in your book, you talk a lot about love and vulnerability. You know, why are those two things so vital, you know, if we're going to overcome our circumstances?

Jason VanRuler (22:58)
Yeah, because you know, love makes the world go round. And I know it's like really simple and you know, there's definitely songs about that. at the end of the day, I mean, that's biblical, right? I mean, it is about love. And it's also about loving the broken places. And so a lot of people can get behind the idea of love. You know, they're like, yeah, I can love something I like. That's easy, Jason. You know, I love that. I love them. All these fun things. And I go, yeah, but can you love the parts that are messy?

Because if you can't, you're gonna always show up holding back, right? We're always gonna show up less vulnerable than we need to be because we believe we're damaged. And so if we can't love those parts, then we don't ever really show up as our full self and people don't get to love us the way we need to be

Rob Paterson (23:42)
Mm.

Jason Allison (23:43)
That's good. What as you think about showing love, right? And for you and you don't have to give the Jesus answer here. I'm just in. Let's get real. But what would you consider to be like the most powerful examples of love in relationships? And like I said, yeah, Jesus on the cross. OK, fine. But I'm talking, you know, in our lives. Yeah, yeah, well.

Jason VanRuler (24:04)
You stole my answer. Thanks a lot. You stole my answer.

Rob Paterson (24:06)
hahahaha

⁓

Jason VanRuler (24:07)
All right. Appreciate that.

Jason Allison (24:07)
I

know Jesus is always the answer, but in this case, let's come up with a different one. No, but I mean, what kind of examples when you think of as a person who's dealing with people all the time, who are wrestling through some of this, what is a really powerful example of love as it plays out in a relationship?

Jason VanRuler (24:26)
Yeah, I mean, to put it simply, I think it's loving someone as they are instead of loving who you want them to be. Because a lot of times we love who we want someone to be, right? We're like, if you could just, if you were just, and I think, man, I've gotten to work with couples who have been married a really long time, and couples who haven't been married a long time, and everything in between, but the love that I see that's the best kind in relationship is when someone says, hey, I just love you.

Jason Allison (24:33)
Yeah.

Jason VanRuler (24:55)
And some days that is messy and some days it's easy and some days it's in between, but like, just love you. And I think that's what we're all searching for. And to go back to the right biblical answer, we're given that. And I think in our best relationships, we get as close as possible to replicating it.

Rob Paterson (25:01)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (25:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, did you hear that, Rob? You should love me just just for me.

Rob Paterson (25:14)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jason VanRuler (25:17)
You

Rob Paterson (25:19)
even with all your brokenness.

Jason Allison (25:21)
Even with all my messiness.

Jason VanRuler (25:21)
Even while it's broken.

Rob Paterson (25:23)
You know what? And honestly, I do love you. I think that's we've Jason, you and I have talked about this how many times over the years, like one of the things I think that has caused us to be good friends for the last decade and a half is that when we are having conversations, whether that's in person or on the phone or whatever, you know, like there's never even like the first time I hung out with you, you know, 14 and a half years ago now.

You know, there's never been a, we've got to pretend we've got to be something other than we are. And you know, yeah, like we'll encourage each other maybe to like do things differently or be better at times, but it doesn't come with that judgment of I can't believe you did or said, you know, like there is that you're my friend, you're my brother, I love you and the good things that you do and in your brokenness. And I think that's, that has been life-giving and powerful for both of us, which.

Jason Allison (26:18)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:18)
is pretty cool.

Jason, on page 126 of your book, actually say, you don't have to... All right, good, good. It's like people coming to us and saying, hey, what's the Bible verse that says this? And it's like, I don't know. Yeah, right? Here, let's Google it. Google will know. You say this, you don't have to change your mind, but you can at least be open to that possibility.

Jason VanRuler (26:25)
page 126, okay, yep, I remember, yep, hear it.

Jason Allison (26:27)
Yeah. ⁓

Jason VanRuler (26:35)
I'm so bad at that. I'm like, you tell me. I don't know. You tell me. Yeah. ⁓

Rob Paterson (26:48)
Why is remaining open to others so important if we're going to really overcome our circumstances?

Jason VanRuler (26:55)
Because we don't know until we know, right? So the thing is, if we lock down on our perspective is the only way to be, or this view is the only one to have, we're not open to change. And so what I'm challenging people to do is at least just be open to the possibility. By the way, you'll have a lot less conflict if you're open to possibility. You don't have to change your mind every time, but just having sort of this posture of maybe, or I guess, or that could be,

Rob Paterson (27:05)
Mm-hmm.

Jason VanRuler (27:21)
that moves relationships and it actually encourages people to grow.

Rob Paterson (27:25)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (27:26)
Man, I was sitting in a meeting on Monday with, so my, my role is the director of church strengthening for converge mid Atlantic. Okay. So East coast, I'm sitting in a meeting with the directors of church strengthening from the, know, from six or seven other regions in the country. and, and we were talking and it's interesting because we're talking about some of the churches that are really pushing back and even to the point of saying, Hey, I think we want out.

Like we don't want to be part of this anymore. And the reasons behind it, you know, the wanting to disfellowship or disaffiliate and, and, and we were all kind of lamenting the fact that all of the reasons have to do with some kind of secondary issue that they have decided is really a primary issue and they aren't open to learning anything about it.

And and I'm oversimplifying and I know, you know, there's lots of layers there and that's fine But I'm seeing what you just described that idea of being open, you know play out in in churches and in relationships within churches all over because people you know, they They they want to know exactly everything And and they don't you know, they don't want any questions or nuance And so as soon as you introduce someone who had maybe has a different perspective

They're either going to respond with kick them out, right? Or they can be open and actually learn something new. And man, but that's really hard for especially pastors who are supposed to have all the answers, right? I mean, how do you help people really bring that openness to a relationship?

Jason VanRuler (29:08)
Yeah, I I think it's just it's just willingness to acknowledge it could be different. It doesn't mean you have to. Right. So what I usually tell somebody is you don't have to change your mind. You just have to be open to new information. And that's kind of been, you know, my gripe with social media is when social media first started, I was like, this is amazing. All these new perspectives, we can learn so much about each other. And then they're like, hey, we got this thing called the algorithm and it's just going to feed you what you already think. And you're like, oh, that's awesome. I'll just I'll just get even more ingrained.

Jason Allison (29:14)
Right.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:34)
Mm-hmm.

Jason VanRuler (29:37)
in what I already believe and not be open to possibility. And so I think if we're not careful, we live in a world that just supports us doubling down on what we think instead of considering possibilities. And not that every possibility is gonna lead to change or new truth, but if we're unwilling to consider any of that, we're pretty much gonna be stagnant.

Jason Allison (29:46)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:57)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (29:58)
Well, go ahead, Rob.

Rob Paterson (30:00)
You know,

yeah, the third section of your book, you know, like talking about how do we get past our past is all about rediscovering your connection. so talk a little bit about that. What is that connection and why is that so important?

Jason VanRuler (30:15)
Yeah, I I think I think in terms of connection to self to God and to others, right? And so when we really get in touch with that, because what happens a lot of times is that we've had rough spots in our past. We just run from it and we sort of leave a bunch of stuff behind. And so just because we left it behind doesn't mean it's not still there. And so that getting connected is saying like, that's still part of who I am as much as maybe I don't want it to be or I don't like that story. It still is me.

Rob Paterson (30:29)
Hmm.

Jason VanRuler (30:43)
And so can I get connected to me? Can I get connected to the people around me who love me that maybe I haven't been open to? And then can I connect with God? Because what I found is a lot of people who have struggled in childhood with parental relationships, you we have this habit of kind of projecting our parental relationships onto God. You know, so it's a very interesting thing. I'll do a workshop with men and I'll say, tell me about your relationship with your father.

Rob Paterson (31:03)
Hmm.

Jason VanRuler (31:09)
And they'll say, well, you he's kind of distant and cold and I felt like he was judgmental and I'll go, awesome. And then five minutes later, I'll go, tell me about your relationship with God. And they'll be like, well, I don't know. It's kind of the weirdest thing. Like I've never felt close to God. I just feel like God's kind of judgmental and cold and distant. And you go, well, that's weird. That sort of sounds like you're describing the exact same thing. And the reason is, is like we lose connection because of our experience and we have to get it back.

Jason Allison (31:29)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:29)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (31:36)
Well, and in that we we start to then project every connection to be just like the ones we experienced before. And then we're not open. Like you said, I mean, it does. It comes back to that vulnerability and openness, you know, because what if this new connection could actually be good? You know, all of a sudden, that's a new way for some people to approach a relationship like this could actually be positive, you know, and I know.

Jason VanRuler (32:01)
What a novel idea, right? It

could be. Yeah. ⁓ Probably not, but it could be. You never know.

Jason Allison (32:03)
crazy. so yeah, well, you

Rob Paterson (32:05)
Mm.

Jason Allison (32:08)
know. So how do you I'm just maybe we're uncovering trade secrets here. But, know, when when you hear what you just described, right, my father, da da da da, and now my relationship with God, you know, it seems to mirror it in so many ways. You know, I'm just curious, what are some things you do to help someone break free of that? And I'm not saying everybody's got daddy issues. I mean, but really,

When that those connections really there's parallels there. and maybe your dad's not in the picture anymore. mean, you my dad passed away 20 some years ago. So, you know, we had a great relationship. It was fine, but like, I can't go back and repair those, you know, so I'm just curious, what are some things you suggest to help people move beyond some of those bad old connections in the past to keep the theme of the book going? Right. What are some things you suggest?

Jason VanRuler (32:56)
Yeah, I I think the thing is everything makes sense in context, right? So it's so that messaging was maybe true about your dad as a child. Like, like, I don't know, maybe that was 100 % spot on. But have the circumstances changed. And so the thing is, it's like, I, you know, I live in South Dakota, so you know, it's already midwinter here by now. So, you know, it's cold and iced over. But if I were to travel to say, Phoenix, right, I'd walk around in a t shirt and shorts.

and it'd make a lot of sense. But if I came back to South Dakota in t-shirt and shorts, everyone would think I was crazy, right? Well, why is that? Well, the environment changed. The circumstances changed. So it made sense there, but it doesn't make sense here. And so what I'm trying to help people figure out is, OK, so it made sense then. Does it make sense now? OK, so maybe that was the relationship I had, is it was cold and distant and judgmental. Are the circumstances the same today?

Rob Paterson (33:30)
Mm.

Jason VanRuler (33:50)
No, no, they're not, Jason. Okay, well then maybe the rules need to change.

Jason Allison (33:50)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (33:54)
Yeah, Well, and even as you're describing that, I'm thinking of myself, you know, when my wife Bethany and I had our first child, like I had no idea, like, you know, what to do with a baby. I mean, I did the things, I did my part, right? But I didn't know how to do that. And the older he got and the more, like, you know, he sort of became a person that had, you know, could do more and didn't just need all, like, our help, the better I became at that.

Jason Allison (33:54)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:22)
And then even when our second son came along eight years later, I was a lot better because I'd had experience. So even just from the other vantage point, where we sort of speak judgment over people, it's like a lot of times they were just doing their best with what they knew and they, like, unfortunately they were figuring it out and we were victims of that figuring it out. But we don't always come to relationships with that level of insight and understanding and grace for.

for other people. Jason, I'm wondering what you would say, you know, cause I think sometimes, you know, people might say, yeah, you know, you're right. I'm not very in touch with and connected to myself or, you know, I I've kind of become more isolated and held others at arm's length for any number of reasons. And, and so, you know, as they work to become more connected with themselves and with others,

They can go, wow, this has been so good and so helpful and so life-giving. But sometimes then what they do is they don't get the appropriate amount of connection in those ways. It's all about me and self-care and just I've got to love myself and it's like my life is all about loving me. Or, man, those people are so great. And so we try to get 100 % of the things we need from...

those couple sources and we overdo it. Like is there such a thing as being too connected? And you know, what happens when that sort of pendulum swings too far the other direction?

Jason VanRuler (35:52)
Yeah, I mean, I always say to clients the opposite of one extreme is another. Right. And so, yeah, we can totally do that if we're not careful. And I think we just have to look at like, what is the consequence of what I'm doing? And am I willing to pay that? And does that seem like that's what God's calling me to do? You know, I think we do the, hey, you got to have self-care and this and this and this. But sometimes I talk to clients and they're like, Jason, if I just do these 30 things every day, I'm great.

Rob Paterson (36:09)
Hmm.

Jason VanRuler (36:20)
And you go, man, that sounds awesome. Do you have a job or how does that work? so it's kind of, what I try to remind people is if you can imagine, we went a long time without therapy. Somehow the world worked up until then. And so what I tell people is like, this is all awesome stuff, but this is like improving on a thing that already worked for a long time.

Jason Allison (36:23)
You

Jason VanRuler (36:42)
And so what we have to remember is like the things we actually need to thrive are pretty simple, not complicated. And so if it's complicated, is it necessary?

Jason Allison (36:52)
Wow. Yeah. So I've got one last question. And I in your epilogue, you used a metaphor that just caught my attention. I just I loved it. You say that your experience, your experiences become a bookmark rather than a book end. And man, that just was like, that's good. I love that. That's going to be one of my sermon point at some point, I'm sure in the future. I'll give you credit, probably.

Jason VanRuler (37:19)
I that. Thank you.

Jason Allison (37:21)
But maybe expound on that a little like what did you mean by that and and how can even our listeners began to embrace that concept of a bookmark instead of a book and in their lives.

Jason VanRuler (37:34)
Yeah, life doesn't have to stop after a hard season. I mean, so it's up to us to decide what to do with that. And unfortunately, sometimes we make it a bookend and we just say like, well, that's the end of it. And I'm just going to live in this place. And I think what's difficult, and I've had to learn this and struggled myself. So by no means I haven't figured it out. But I would just say like, we were never promised an easy life. So when we have challenges, there's actually some comfort in going, yeah, this is part of the deal.

There's going to be some bookmarks. I promise you that. Right. There's also going to be some times that are amazing and they're highlights or you underline them. But there's supposed to be some bookmarks. The book ends though. There's really only supposed to be like two of those. The start and the finish. Right. And so I think we just kind of have to say like yeah I wasn't promised that it's always going to feel great. That was hard. And in the hard times make the good times that much better. And acknowledging that I think helps us move forward.

Rob Paterson (38:17)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (38:30)
Well, I know, I mean, having read the book, like I know some of the bookmarks in your life because you share them, you know, and, you don't go into tons of detail on some of it, but man, you had some pretty difficult bookmarks that you had to deal with. So that that's why seeing that you write a book saying, get past your past, knowing some of the stuff, the pain that you came out of. mean, I'm not going to lie when I was reading that last little bit and you're, you're carrying your kid.

You know down to the front of the stage there and the song comes on that It was the song that played in the car over and over after you guys went through such I mean I was tearing up and and i'm like wait i'm not supposed to tear up on this i'm supposed to know you know, but I can tell Apparently I yeah, well you you won But you know, I i'm just that just adds a depth to this that that I think is is really amazing and

Jason VanRuler (39:10)
Therapists want everyone to cry all the time. So mission accomplished. That's great.

Jason Allison (39:20)
I mean, if you're talking to a pastor or a leader who, maybe they've gone through a rough time and it feels like a bookend, ⁓ what are some things you would ask them to do to help turn that bookend into a book?

Jason VanRuler (39:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, and it does sometimes, right? Sometimes we go through situations where, know, kind of saying, well, hey, this is a bookmark. It's like, well, that I don't want to be Pollyanna or silver lining this or, you know, it's no, this is hard, Jason. And I would say it is it is. And so what I'm always trying to look for and always have in those tough times for me is where's God in this? Right. Where are people who love me in this and what are they telling me and what's the lesson that I'm getting from this?

And sometimes that lesson takes years, you know, it's just percolating for a long time and sometimes it even changes a little bit But I think if you're in a spot where you feel like no, this is this is the bookend I just say is that what God's calling you to is that the message God's given you is that hey life stopped today? Because the chances are probably not

Rob Paterson (40:24)
Mm.

Yeah, that man that you guys are both right. That idea, that metaphor is kind of worth its weight in gold. And if we can all get to the place of even though that was horrifically painful, even though in some ways it feels like the end, no, no, no, no, it's just a bookmark and things will start feeling better in the weeks and months and years ahead. It's okay, we're going to survive this man. What a powerful thing. Jason, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today.

You know, and everybody has, you know, like strengths and weaknesses. And I'm sure if we like asked you to like list a bunch of weaknesses you could, or we talked to your wife, you know, she'd probably have things to say. But man, you know, Jason, I've been doing this for years and you know, there's a lot of times where we're talking to guests and you know, they're, give very sort of short answers. And we're like, man, that we felt like there was so much gold there. And you said three is your answer. And we're like, we need more.

Jason VanRuler (41:04)
You don't have enough time. You don't have enough I don't think.

Jason Allison (41:06)
Hahaha

Rob Paterson (41:25)
Or other times people will slowly like talk forever to give you and you're like, dude, like we, just wasted a whole book. And man, I, this entire time I've been impressed, you know, that with some questions from your book, I mean, you have given us great information in succinct ways. And it's just seemed very, you know, like receivable and accessible. uh, and man, I'm,

I think it makes the things not only that you're saying, but that you have written even more powerful. So thanks, thanks for the ways you've done this kind of work to become the person that you are right now. And thanks for sharing some of your gold and some of your experiences with us and with the world in ways that hopefully will be helpful and a blessing. So I really appreciate that.

Jason VanRuler (42:14)
Well, Rob, that's a high compliment. I appreciate that so much. And I attribute it to being Midwestern, wanting to provide value, you know, and all the other things. But I love that. So I'm glad I could do that. And I'll send you guys the bill. You know, I'll even give you a discount today. So I'm feeling good about it. That was a nice compliment. I'll cut that fee in half. No, I'm kidding. What I love about you guys, and just to speak back to you, is a great interview starts with great questions.

Jason Allison (42:35)
Wow.

Jason VanRuler (42:43)
And so I think you guys both nailed that and working together is a gift. So it's been fun.

Jason Allison (42:49)
Well, thank you very much. And it has been a pleasure. you mentioned before we hit record that you've got another book coming out in April. And so please keep us in the loop because we would love to have you back on and talk about that. Is there any like secret little insight you can give us to topic or title or anything yet?

Jason VanRuler (43:09)
Yeah, I mean, I can. There's a title, so it's called Discovering Your Communication Type. And if you have ever done the five love languages, I did them, I loved them, I thought, man, what if there was something like this for communication? And so I developed a five typology system where you take an assessment, you find out your primary communication type, and it tells you how to talk to other people on a more meaningful level.

Rob Paterson (43:34)
Mm.

Jason Allison (43:35)
Well, we definitely want you back for that. We work with communicators all the time and some of them really need some help. ⁓

Jason VanRuler (43:37)
Okay.

It's the number

one complaint I hear with couples is they're like, we don't communicate well. And I'm like, what does that mean? And they're like, we don't communicate well. And they're like, we're having trouble defining it. So maybe we should start there. Yes. So the book is about how to do that better.

Jason Allison (43:45)
It is.

you

Yeah, that's,

Rob Paterson (43:54)
Yeah, so good.

Jason Allison (43:57)
well, I'm excited about that. I can't wait. And thank you for your time and for just like Rob said, the effort it takes to take all of your experiences and roll them into something usable for not only you, but for the rest of the world. We appreciate that. So to our listeners, we hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I know Rob and I did.

And so please take a moment to share and subscribe and like and all the Words that social media people say I'm supposed to say But most of all we just hope it was a blessing to you and we are cheering for you And we look forward to talking to you again next week. Have a great week