Jason & Rob Try To Get Canceled!

Summary

In this conversation, Rob Paterson and Jason Allison explore the complexities of biblical interpretation within Christianity. They discuss the common question of whether certain actions are 'biblical' and emphasize the importance of aligning actions with the heart and teachings of Jesus rather than a literal interpretation of scripture.

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Rob Paterson (00:00)
one of the things that I hear over and over and over again, and the older I get, the more it frustrates me, is when Christians say, well,

Is that biblical? and I'm like, well, I mean, murdering people's biblical, know, uh, driving it, driving a tent stake through a person's head is, is biblical, you know, uh, lying, uh, adultery is all biblical. Yes. to me, the older I get, and I know what people are asking when they ask that question, but it's usually kind of.

Jason Allison (00:13)
polygamy.

Sacrificing your son?

Rob Paterson (00:30)
being asked even in a misguided way and it's prioritizing things. And I'm like, how about, is this consistent with the heart and the life of Jesus? That's a way better question than is it biblical?

Jason Allison (01:17)
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the church talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We're so excited that you would take a few minutes and listen to our ramblings. I don't know, Rob, I'm excited. we've got a conversation that we want to have and we haven't planned it out, but we know what we're going to talk about and it's how to get canceled. And I just feel like we are probably experts on this. maybe, maybe not experts. Maybe we're experts on getting right up to the edge.

Rob Paterson (01:36)
Whoa.

Jason Allison (01:44)
And then, then just back in a way slowly and watching someone else fall over the edge. But, yeah.

Rob Paterson (01:49)
Is

today the day that we Thelma and Louise it off the cliff and you know.

Jason Allison (01:52)
Yes, might be.

It might be. It might be. I, tell you what though. So, you know, a couple of months ago we had Mitch Harrison on the, on the podcast and his, his book running on full, you know, I ended up being out in Vegas, which is where he lives and not to rub it in too much, but I got to hang out with him for the weekend. and we, we had a great time. we did play some golf, which, know, I know, Rob, I really wished you would've been there.

But you couldn't. That's okay. I get it. It's not your fault. It's my fault. But yeah, it is. I'll own it because I don't really care. and so anyway, but we went and saw a couple of shows which his son is actually in the show business there in Vegas, right? He's, he's becoming a magician and a mentalist. He does sword swallowing. Like I, he's in a, he's in a music video that the, the former lead singer of slipknot.

Rob Paterson (02:23)
It is your fault. I blame you 100%.

Jason Allison (02:48)
Which is I don't know. Anyway, that lead singer did a video. He's in it swallowing swords like it's pretty cool. But we had a ton of fun. We went and saw a magician and his son is actually in the show with the magician. And and so, you know, said they're watching this guy and it's I am just blown away by the skill that these performers are like. I know people that do magic tricks. This is not this guy.

was brilliant. And he's one of the guys that like is one of the grandfathers, you know, of all the magicians, like he's good friends with pen of Penn and Teller, like, you know, and I got to hang out with him after the show a little just, whatever. And then the next night we saw a mentalist who's friends with my, you my friend and his son and, he's, he's Scottish and his name's Colin cloud, right. And he was runner up on America's that got talent or, know, one of those, those shows.

Rob Paterson (03:29)
Hmm. Hmm.

Jason Allison (03:40)
my gosh, like to see these guys perform and just they have so fine tuned their craft and then here talking with him after the show, he was asking me like, Hey, how did you hear when I said this? Right. And, and he was asking, you know, my, my Mitch's Mitch's son, Luke, Hey, when I did this bit, like, did you hear the difference from the last time you saw the show? You know, like I was just amazed at how

Rob Paterson (03:54)
Mm.

Jason Allison (04:07)
detail oriented they were and these guys are brilliant. my gosh. mean, I can't even I don't even know. I don't know how they did any of the stuff they did. I don't even have a clue but to think about the how hard they work at that and then I think you know, I there's a little bit of a lesson here that maybe we as pastors need to need to take note of that. I don't care how good you are like you really need to work on your craft of

preaching of it, know, leading meetings of whatever it is. If we worked on it as hard as some of these and they, know, they get the bad rebel. You just have a show in Vegas and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, Oh no, they put the effort in. And I was sitting there Sunday afternoon. We were, we had gone to lunch and we're sitting on this patio or, know, at a strip mall. Like it wasn't real fancy or anything. And Mitch's son, Luke was sitting there just shuffling a deck of cards.

Cause he always has cards on him cause he's always working right on that. And, you know, and I said, Hey, Mitch, I said, you're going to do a trick for us. And Mitch and Luke said, you got 20 bucks. I don't do this for free anymore. that was awesome. Of course. Then he turned around and did a bunch of tricks and blew my mind, but that's whatever. but anyway, I just was thinking of that, you know, like, man, I got a lot of work to do on my craft.

Rob Paterson (05:16)
That is so good.

Jason Allison (05:29)
And I want to make sure I put effort into that. it's worth it. The people that I serve are worth it. And, and I want to make sure that I'm not just being lazy.

Rob Paterson (05:38)
Yeah, you know, when you're saying that, thought I had a conversation with my oldest son, Christopher, recently where we were talking about this stuff because he had something he was preparing for. So he was listening to, you know, himself, whether it was a song or a talk or whatever, just to try to improve. And it really like and he and I talked about this. really made me think of how many times I've done this. I know other pastors and they're like,

Jason Allison (05:49)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (06:05)
You know, people seem to like what I do, but man, I hate listening to myself, right? And so we, you know, we just sound like ourselves to others and they're, they know that and they're used to that. And so it's normal. Like, I mean, I don't really hear too many people and think, Oh, you know, cause they just sound like them and I know them or have gotten used to that. And so that's how it works when we listen to ourselves, you know, it's, it can be a really difficult thing. And, and yet I think.

how many times when I listen to others and can even say this, like if I'm listening to a sermon where I'm supposed to be listening critically to give feedback and I'm like, here's a word that you overuse. So just be mindful of that. You know, use that less. And so I can be helpful. But man, when I listen to me, it's painful. So I avoid doing that, which then means that I'm not developing my craft, you know, and so I'm leaving potential impact.

Jason Allison (06:45)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (07:01)
on the table and it just made me think the other day, I was just pondering and I thought this, know, a lot of times in life we work at things, whether it's a golf game like you were just talking about, or whether it's our preaching or whatever pieces, parts of, you know, what we do in our daily lives, man, we start out, we don't know how to do any of these things and so we're forced to develop some skills and we go through that painful, you know, difficult

Jason Allison (07:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (07:29)
time consuming process to the point where we develop some aptitude and ability and we get to the point where, okay, I'm good enough. I'm not going to get fired now because I'm terrible at this. And quite honestly, I think for most people we're like, okay, like I don't need to keep doing all the painful stuff that helps me get a little bit better and a little bit better. And so we're happy being good enough. We coast.

Jason Allison (07:51)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (07:56)
And as soon as you start doing that, like, and it could take you decades, but we're literally moving in the direction of the grave, right? We were not trying to improve or not trying to work on it. And man, like that was just like, that like was a kind of, I confronted myself with that. And I'm like, I got to knock that off. Like in the areas where I think I've, I've developed enough to be good enough to accomplish everything I want to accomplish. No, no, no.

Jason Allison (07:58)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (08:24)
God wants me to do my best, not just be happy with being a little bit better.

Jason Allison (08:29)
Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought that up, because actually today the episode is all about me telling Rob all the things that he needs to improve on.

Rob Paterson (08:37)
Amen. This is

going to be a 17 hour episode. So Jason, to kind of get into our topic of getting canceled, you and I were having a text message conversation and I'll leave the first part out because it's really irrelevant. But what kind of led us to this is, you know, I was saying to you, one of the things that I hear over and over and over again, and the older I get, the more it frustrates me, is when Christians say, well,

Jason Allison (08:44)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (09:03)
Is that biblical? You know, and I'm like, well, I mean, murdering people's biblical, know, uh, driving it, driving a tent stake through a person's head is, is biblical, you know, uh, lying, uh, adultery is all biblical. Yes. Child sacrifice biblical. Like to me, the older I get, and I know what people are asking when they ask that question, but it's usually kind of.

Jason Allison (09:05)
Yeah.

polygamy.

Sacrificing your son?

Rob Paterson (09:31)
being asked even in a misguided way and it's prioritizing things. And I'm like, how about, is this consistent with the heart and the life of Jesus? That's a way better question than is it biblical? And yet, like for a lot of people, you'd be like, no, I would ask that question or that's an important question that we need to determine.

Jason Allison (09:54)
Right.

Rob Paterson (09:54)
and again, we could, but I'm like, for a lot of people, even asking a question like that or pushing back on, you know, me saying that's kind of dumb question that could get us canceled. Right. ⁓ and I'm like, and I said to you, well, you know, I'm kind of low key trying to get canceled. Cause and, and it made me think of, you know, when I was, I got saved at 14. So there were things that I thought that I believe that I was told, when I was a teenager.

Jason Allison (10:03)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (10:21)
that I carried into my college years, I even into my 20s. And if you would have said, what do you think about this? I would have said, oh man, like, yeah, like 100%, I believe that. And then, you know, I went through Bible college, I went through seminary, I had professors, I read books. And I started to discover that some of those things that like maybe were popular opinions that just people in general might have thought or embraced that.

that idea is truth, then I'm like, this really, like for the majority of Bible scholars, theologians, Christianity even, like that thing that has gotten popularity that people go, this is true, know, likely isn't true. And so again, I got a lot more that I could say and that I want to say and that I'm gonna say before this episode.

Jason Allison (11:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:14)
is out but maybe let's just start like you know what are what are some of those things you know like for you for me for us do you want to go

Jason Allison (11:21)
Mm-hmm.

So,

yeah, well, I can start. mean, the first thing I was in a conversation with our mutual friend, Emily, Manders, you know, she's on staff with me with converge. and we were talking about, you know, women in ministry and that's a major hot topic right now in some circles, ours being one of them. I know it's not across the board and some of our listeners are like, that's not hot. We settled that 40 years ago, you know, like, so that's fine.

But.

Rob Paterson (11:52)
And we have listeners who would think that falling off the log in both directions, right?

Jason Allison (11:56)
Exactly.

I was not specific in the answer there, but, but one of the conclusions I came to, and I've heard other people say this was, listen, if your theology, makes you a more hateful person, then it's not good theology. And so like, that's one of my premises in this is when I look back over my history, my, you my life and the things that I believed or thought are even considered as true.

Rob Paterson (11:58)
Yeah.

So good.

Jason Allison (12:23)
When I realized that some of those things actually made me a less loving person, really, that was the beginning of me questioning some of the things that I thought were just assumed as true across the board. Um, and for me though, like, you know, I would say, so, and this is one that I I'm not, I don't have any strong conclusions exactly. Right. I mean, I, I, but I mean, I'm just like, what do you do with the whole question about

What does God think about the LGBTQ plus community? Like that's a, know what scripture says and I'm not trying to turn that around or whatever, it's kind of like the, Tyson used to say, you can have a great plan, but that goes out the window. The first minute you get punched in the face, right? I can have a great theology, but you know what really changes the way I understand the whole dynamic of that question?

Is when I have a friendship with someone who identifies in the LGBTQ plus community. And all of a sudden it's not just a concept or a they. Right. It's, it's a person that I'm friends with and I love them as a person. And I see Jesus, his reflection in them. And now I got to tell them, yeah. And you're going to burn in hell. ⁓ That's where it gets real. Right.

Rob Paterson (13:45)
Great.

Yeah, and it's so fascinating to me to take that issue. And I think anybody who's been in ministry a long time has thought about at some point along the way, whether you feel like, I did and I settled it or for me, those things keep coming back up because they take different forms, right? And so one of the things that's always fascinating to me is the number of people who will take, because the...

Jason Allison (14:04)
Yep. Yep.

Rob Paterson (14:14)
the broad umbrella for that, would be sexual sin, right? And so people will take sexual sins maybe that they've committed that make sense to them, that are comfortable, not right or that they embrace, but they're like, yeah, know, Joe is single and he and his girlfriend sometimes go too far and end up having sex or whatever.

Jason Allison (14:17)
Right, right.

Rob Paterson (14:36)
Is that ideal? No. If that's gonna continue, they really need to get married sooner than later. But I, know, but I mean, I've been there, done that. Like, I understand. So we, you know, we have a sense of grace and compassion because it makes sense to us when all of a sudden, like the people who are committing sexual sin in this other way, we're like, part of hell, right? And it's like,

shouldn't we bring the same theology, the same ethic to various kinds of sexual sin as opposed to the one that makes sense to us that we might fall into if we were in a unique situation? We're more gracious with that. And then the one that we don't have really any danger of committing, we're a lot harsher with. Like, that goes back to what you said.

Jason Allison (15:13)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, Rob, am not going to,

I am not going to condemn someone who is doing a sin that I might actually also do.

Rob Paterson (15:32)
Yes. Yeah.

Jason Allison (15:33)
You know, I'm

only going to get really mad about the people who are sinning differently than me.

Rob Paterson (15:38)
And I think this is like a principle I try to encourage with everyone, regardless of, you the area, the topic. It's like, be way harder on us than you are on them. You know, like, and I try to live by that. you know what? I'm a little more conservative leaning. So people a lot of times think I'm a liberal because I like will say things that sound more progressive because

Jason Allison (15:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (16:05)
I would rather put a bullseye on people who think more like I do. And so, you know, no, I'm going to be harder on conservatives. I'm going to be harder on Christians. ⁓ You know, it's just my...

Jason Allison (16:16)
Yeah. So I was,

we did a, we did a webinar, yesterday, with the next gen leaders across the Converge mid Atlantic, region. had, put together this thing and, the, lady and, actually I've got her scheduled to be on, be, to be interviewed by us, in the next couple of weeks. so, so this would be good, but she, she, she does a thing called the anatomy of a question.

And the whole thing is how to talk to teenagers and young people, right? But the cool thing is one of the principles that she talked about was basically be open, like listen, listen to what they're actually saying. Look for the look for the real question, right? That the presenting question may not be the actual question that they have. And so be willing to listen and to and rather than.

Rob Paterson (16:38)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (17:04)
throw your stock answer at them. You know, what does it look like to have an open approach? That doesn't mean you're accepting everything they say, right? It means though, that you are allowing them to say these things and giving them space to express that not so that you can then turn around and just dump water all over them and tell them how terrible they are and prove them wrong. know that, but to say, Hey, I hear what you're saying. And

Rob Paterson (17:30)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (17:31)
you know, can I get, can I offer you another way of looking at it? Because you've listened to their way of looking at it. You have created space where you can now offer an alternative idea without forcing it on them or crushing them with it. this is where I love in, in the, Matthew 18, where, know, we always read that, this is how you confront someone. Right. It's the, you know, the restoration passage. Well, the interesting thing is, you know, if you look at that, there's a spot where it says.

where two or three are gathered and all this stuff. And usually it's in the context of correcting someone. But Jesus in other places in scripture also talks about how when two people are talking together that God is there with them. And he uses some language that is really similar to the breath of God. So it's like as I am speaking, which means breath coming out, and I see the breath coming out of the other person.

That is like God being all around us in what we are saying. And so we have to really consider what am I saying? Because it can become a reflection to the other person of what God is like, you know, as we present God, what does that look like? You know, is this is it a God that hates them and that, you know, really just can't wait to burn them up in hell? Or is it a picture of God that is more what scripture talks about?

Rob Paterson (18:32)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (18:55)
Anyway, sorry, I got on a a on a rabbit trail there.

Rob Paterson (18:58)
No, that's so good. And

I don't know which order these will drop. So our listeners may have heard this already, or this might not have popped out yet, depending on. But man, it's like the interview we did with Jason Van Ruler, right, when he was in his book, that idea of, man, you don't have to change your mind, but could you at least be open to considering things that others are saying? I just, I.

Jason Allison (19:21)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:24)
I'd never thought about it that way before, but man, what a brilliant thing, right? When you have people who obviously have two different opinions on something that feels like a weighty or an important thing. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Like I'm not saying this so that you change your mind, but could, could you and could I at least be open to considering a different perspective or new information? And again, I'm like, I won't change my mind, but if I listen with openness, that's powerful.

Jason Allison (19:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, but that's.

But that's going to get you. You can't do that because if you you allow them to speak and to say something that is different than you, then you're approving it. I mean, that's what culture is saying today. And you have to condemn them and you got to destroy them with your amazing logic and rip them apart. That's the only way they're going to know the truth. And I just

Rob Paterson (20:02)
Yes.

It's the slippery

slope to death and destruction and hell and sin and we can't risk that.

Jason Allison (20:16)
Yeah.

And

I just call BS on all that. You know, like I, need to, we need to understand how to have a dialogue with someone, a conversation where yes, you may be trying to, you know, win them over with your, with your thoughts, but not, you know, you're not trying to beat them up with it. You're simply saying, let me show you where I come from and let me listen lovingly to what you're saying. But man, people don't know how to do that anymore.

Rob Paterson (20:21)
Mm, that's good.

Hmm. I saw, you know, I saw a thing on social media this very week, friend of mine posted it and I wanted to get in on the comments and start a conversation. I decided not to because I felt like I couldn't, I was going to bring some heat kind of like you said, like that might not be the, you know, the best thing. But the point that this post, and it wasn't like this person that I know like was like

Jason Allison (20:47)
And yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:11)
wrote this, was they were sharing someone else's thing. it was basically, you know, it's biblical to treat people differently. And then they use proverbs, right? There was like, hey, this is how you treat a wise person. This is how you treat a foolish person. Here's how you treat an evil person. like, you know, like here's what we should do. And and and I just remember like wanting to jump in and say, well, OK, first of all, let's remember one of the first things I learned when studying proverbs in my poetic books class was that proverbs are principles, not promises. Right. So

Jason Allison (21:27)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:40)
Like these are general ideas for us to consider and wrestle with as wisdom and when do they apply and when don't they apply? It's not just, that person's a fool so I'm gonna like treat them like harshly or they're evil so I won't even interact with them. I'm like, doesn't always fit the bill. We need to use our own wisdom and you know, because every situation might be a little bit unique. Also, what do you do with biblical things like

Jason Allison (21:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (22:05)
Jesus telling us, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, right? It's not just, well, you're my enemy and you're evil, so I'm not gonna have anything to do with you. Like there are all these nuanced things and just so many people liking and like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I'm just like, not necessarily, you know.

Jason Allison (22:24)
Well, like

the bringing up the proverbs, right? And, and, know, the, it says, don't, don't engage a fool, right? Is, when the very next verse says engage the fool. Like, I mean, literally it's contradictory from one verse to the next on how to engage a fool in conversation. And the point of that is exactly what you just said. Read the context, read the situation. Like there are times, yeah. Engaging the fool is like throwing your, your pearls before swine.

Right? Like, I mean, that's you got to understand that there is a time that that is the case. There are other times that, you know, you go look for the lost sheep and forsake the 99 that agree with you to go find the one who doesn't and who is rebelling because you want to love them and care for them, which is the right thing to do in any given situation. I don't know. I just know I'm going to try to reflect Jesus in the situation as best as I possibly can.

And sometimes that means walking side by side with a gay person who's being, you know, opposed or oppressed in some way, because that's just wrong that someone is treated that way. That doesn't mean I agree with them, right? But it means I disagree with someone else oppressing them. And so learning how to do that and when to do that. Yes, it's dangerous because quite honestly, there are certain

Things that, you know, I live in just outside of Columbus. Columbus has a huge pride parade, you know, and their big thing, whatever. I'm always mixed as man, what do do with that? You know, cause like there are parts of it. I'm like, I don't want anything to do with that. Cause I don't want to be around that because of the licentiousness and all the stuff it is gay or straight. I don't care. I would, I don't want to be there, you know, but there are other parts of it where I'm like, you know, I know some people who have struggled with this.

And this is their chance to feel like they're finally seen and someone understands them. well, which is right to avoid it or to embrace it or somewhere in between? don't know, but I know churches that would fire their pastor if their pastor went down and had anything to do with it. And I also know pastors who would fire their pastors or churches who would fire their pastors if their pastor didn't go down and participate. So it's like, come on people, let's, let's figure out how to handle this.

Rob Paterson (24:48)
Yeah, and it's interesting you say this because this is like kind of bringing back flashbacks. So we actually had a gentleman in our first church plant in Indianapolis who went through a really messy divorce and then came out of the closet. so like, this is, gosh, this is, you know, a long time ago. So think about how this is still like an issue that's very contentious. And so this like,

Jason Allison (25:06)
Yeah.

It was worse then.

Rob Paterson (25:14)
Yeah, I mean, because it wasn't it wasn't gray in any way back in some people are listening to that comment and that might get us canceled all by itself because they're like, this is still not great. And that's not what I mean. Like, but it's like, what do you do? What don't you How do you deal with it? Like, you know, those types of things. And so we this this guy, I mean, we tried to be, you know, and he was very engaged at church. And I really appreciated that because he had churches he could go to that would have affirmed his lifestyle.

Jason Allison (25:25)
Yeah. Culturally. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (25:42)
You know, we didn't. Now we weren't like preaching every week against, you know, homosexuality. But, you know, if that came up and it was he actually appreciated being in a place where he was forced to feel some tension. He didn't want to just go somewhere where people would say and affirm whatever he wanted to do. And I love that. So, you know, we tried to create connections. And so he invited us to some chilly cook off. That was like a big Indianapolis wide thing.

Jason Allison (25:55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:08)
And then it was like the night before he's like, hey, I can't really afford the 20 bucks to get me into that. like there's, I sing as part of this choir and like, why don't we just go to that instead? And like, he, he was very, I don't want to say he was deceptive, but you know, so we're like, yeah, sure, whatever. You know, so we go down to this arts district kind of right by downtown and.

We're walking, there's like little kind of, it's like a street fair. So there's all these vendors and stuff and we're walking. And it doesn't take too many vendors to realize this is like the gay pride thingy in the chorus that Indianapolis men's chorus is like a gay kind of choir. And again, it's so funny because Bethany very quickly noticed how like, as I was walking a much younger me, you know, I'm walking along and she's like, these guys are looking at my husband. So she's getting in like real close, you know, cause it's just.

Jason Allison (26:44)
Yeah, right.

Rob Paterson (26:58)
And I still remember some interactions and then he invited us to like at another thing we went to and it was a very small deal but it was like gay and lesbian volleyball or whatever. And I just remember like interacting with people and I didn't disagree with things like, hey, know, like there are laws that do not help or protect people like this so that, you know, like, hey, if your person who you like lived with and, you know,

Jason Allison (27:09)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (27:24)
put money away with and all the things like if they're on their deathbed and their family doesn't like their family can literally say you're not welcome in the room. Well, your person's dying. You're not welcome to and I'm just like, you know what? Like I don't agree that like what they can or should do ought to be called marriage. But do I think that laws shouldn't like harm or like I kind of do.

And, you know, when we went to the volleyball thing, you know, people kind of did mistake that for kind of just complete and utter support. And so they were like, Hey, would you, would you do our, service? And I was like, I would not feel, mean, you know what, like I'm happy to like love you and talk to you and be around you. Like, I don't have a problem with you, but that is not something that, you know, I, I would do. And, and you know, like, so

Jason Allison (27:57)
Affirming. Yep.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (28:21)
Yeah, I just have all these things and it's like, it's messy, right? But when we just sort of like decide things in a vacuum and then use what we believe like as a club to beat people over the head, man, there's no redemption in that. Like there's no Jesus in that.

Jason Allison (28:38)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So before we get completely canceled, wait, maybe it's too late. But what are you thinking too, when you think of some of these issues that as pastors, as leaders, you know, we really need to be able to handle, what does it look like to have this conversation, even though we may have people in our own tribe that disagree with us.

Rob Paterson (29:02)
Yeah, so let me use one of my examples that at this point in my life, I don't think is controversial at all, but there will be people who hear me say this and will be like, what? So when I was a teenager, like, you know, and even in my twenties, like Bethany and I, every time I knew one of the left behind books came out, we would get it and read it. And, you know, fell into that. It was just kind of a fun thing to do. Bethany's...

Jason Allison (29:05)
Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:28)
He's since passed away, but her mom's second husband, her stepdad, he was big into all that end time stuff and read the, and I forget what they were, but they were the more scholarly novels that were similar to the left behind thing. so, you

Then I start like talking to some of my professors and I start like I took a class on the book of Revelation and then going to seminary, right? And then I start to realize that like 200 years ago, there was like nobody thought that there was such a thing as a rapture. Actually my Old Testament professor in seminary at a very conservative, baptistic seminary

Jason Allison (30:12)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (30:17)
I still remember him saying in reference to the idea of the rapture that if no one ever told you anything and you just picked up a Bible and read it over and over over and over over over over again and never ever ever, you know, came to a conclusion, it's likely not in, but this is what we do at the rapture, right? Like we have a couple of verses, one here and one couple here. We put these together and we've come up with this thing that really gained a lot of popularity in the Great Depression.

throughout kind of the eras of slavery. So the idea that God's getting us out of here became a very popular thing. But again, like you take St. Augustine, you take C.S. Lewis, like some of the people that we would consider the great thinkers historically about the faith, they were all, all millennialists. They did not believe that the rapture was a thing that, you know, and so I have, you know, not in a combative way, not in a set people kind of straight kind of way.

have mentioned some of these things. And it's so funny because people who have read these books, who have listened to some Christian media, are like, no, you were wrong. And of course, then I get deemed progressive. And it's like, no, no, This is what the overwhelming majority of people who study the Bible, theology for a living, would say and agree with biblically speaking, right?

Jason Allison (31:16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (31:42)
But and so so people will say to me, well, you know, when we're floating up in the sky, I'm going to be like, like I was right. You were wrong. And I'm going to. And my response is always the same. I don't like if we end up kind of floating up in the sky, you know, whatever. Like, like, honestly, I know what I believe now, which is completely different than what I used to believe. But like I literally tell people like.

Jason Allison (32:05)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (32:07)
Yeah, you can mock me if you want, but literally to me, how this actually plays out because it's a secondary issue, I don't care. Like you could totally be right. I'm okay with that. I could be right. I think I am right. But like, like there, I have no weight in being right. I have no dog in this fight. I'm just trying to take what I believe the Bible to be saying and what I feel like the weight of evidence sort of pushes toward.

and I'm trying to deal with that honestly and not just sort of take what a bunch of people have told me or what a bunch of novels I read said. so in terms of how we respond, I think if this is not an Apostles Creed blood level issue, that we need to quit making molehills into mountains and take ourselves a lot less seriously on some of these things.

Jason Allison (32:58)
Yeah. And I think to push back slightly on that is when these molehills really, you know, are being used to be less loving, then we need to confront that. And like with the whole rapture dispensational, some of the left behind stuff like that theology has been all about, hey, we're out of here someday. So screw this world. It doesn't matter.

Rob Paterson (33:25)
Right. So creation care out the window, it allows conservatives to be like, see, we don't need to care about the environment and global warming, a thing. like that whole thing that, that conservatives say, it's like how arrogant to think that we could do anything to have a negative impact on God's planet and thing. it's like, so throw your McDonald's trash out the window, drive only V10s that get

Jason Allison (33:25)
I will do whatever I want. Right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (33:54)
four miles a gallon, know, do all that stuff and it doesn't matter, right? And it's like, ugh, like, and you know what? And those people could be totally right, like, you know, but I gotta think that like us being open to considering us wrestling with how can we best steward everything that God has given us, including this planet, is something that God would honor.

Jason Allison (33:56)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:18)
us for thinking about, considering, and being open to wrestling with.

Jason Allison (34:23)
Yes. Yeah. And I guess that's where I'm going with this, you know, ultimately is if you're not willing to wrestle with scripture and with what is going on and so forth, then and you just already have a preconceived, prepackaged ideas to what your theology is, then, you know, I really, I don't know the point of us having a conversation then, because I want to enter into a conversation being willing to learn from someone.

And being able to, you know, hopefully see maybe there's an area I've just totally missed it. You know, I just didn't see it. I didn't, and I need someone to show me that. But I also am only going to be vulnerable enough to hear from you if you will be vulnerable enough to hear from me. And so when I go into this and someone's like, well, you just can't think that well, you know what? Uh, you know, I've got history and scholarship for 2000 years behind me.

Just because you read a novel that made you think this or you heard your pastor say, okay, but let's get realistic here. Let's pay attention to what's going on in scripture. Back to your question, is X biblical? Whatever that, fill in the blank. I'm like, you know what? There's a lot of stuff in there that's biblical. That doesn't mean it's right. The Bible is not written.

Rob Paterson (35:20)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (35:43)
You know, it's not written to us. It's written for us. And so we have to realize, Hey, just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean it's prescriptive. Sometimes it's descriptive. When they talk about Solomon and his 700 wives and 300 concubines. I mean, as much as all the guys are like, what's wrong with that? Well, I mean, I raised two girls, yeah, three women in the house and I couldn't handle it. So I can't imagine a palace full of, you know,

Rob Paterson (36:09)
Yeah, it's a great, it's great in theory, but I think after, after you've added wife to, you will instantly start to be like, my goodness. Like what I am an idiot. Yeah.

Jason Allison (36:09)
thousand women.

What have I done? Yeah. Yeah. So,

but, but I mean, the point is like, yeah, that's in the Bible and someone that God chose and God blessed did it. So like, what does that prove? You know, I don't know. What does that mean? I, I don't know. I, when people say biblical, they want, they wonder if something's biblical. I know there's a question under that. And, and usually that's where I go when that, that kind of sentiment comes up.

I try to figure out, what are you really asking? Are you really saying I want permission to do this thing because I just like doing it even though I think maybe the Bible says not to, but I want to find a verse that, you know, overrides it. Or are you truly asking, man, I just don't know what to do here. What does God want me to do?

Rob Paterson (37:02)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So Jason, one of the things that I've been thinking about kind of along these lines, and it's kind of like a little multi-thought kind of, you know, and I think I've even said this on our podcast before, but you know, whatever that thing is that exists in most people, that it's like, man, like I'm just gonna hit the easy button.

This week I'm gonna preach to the choir. I'm gonna say the things I know. And you know what, I might alienate one or two people, but I'm gonna attract a whole bunch more people because where I live, the things that people think, whether I live in a more progressive area or more conservative area, if I take a political stance, if I elevate these people and I bash those people, I just know I'm gonna be more effective and more successful, right?

Jason Allison (37:50)
Well, effective and successful in drawing

a bigger crowd. Yes.

Rob Paterson (37:53)
Drawing a bigger crowd growing a bigger organ whatever whatever the things right like that part of me at some point probably my 20s maybe even younger broke like I don't like I don't have it like if I don't believe something to be true I can't I can't just like ring that bell and beat that drum in order to sort of achieve some level of success or effectiveness, you know, I so

Jason Allison (37:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:23)
But it's also true that, you know, I'm not a complete idiot. Some may disagree with that, but, and so, you know, like there are things that I would even say like, okay, I used to think this my I've learned, I've studied, I've read, I've grown, and I don't think that anymore. But I also know that virtually everybody around me still thinks that. So for me to try to say or push or teach that, you know,

Jason Allison (38:28)
Alright.

Rob Paterson (38:52)
Is not is is going to blow things up. And so, you know, I'm I'm, you know, I'm going to be a little bit self serving maybe and say, I like I really believe this to be right and true and biblical in the in the good sense of that. But like people aren't like ready, willing, able to hear that in a constructive way. And so I keep my my fool mouth shut, right? The problem with that.

Jason Allison (39:04)
Right, right.

Rob Paterson (39:18)
is like, you know, I think the church also needs some Galileo's and Copernicus's who are willing to speak the truth, even if it does get them canceled or killed so that we can in some of these areas, if this really is true, we can get to the truth. And yes, there may be some sacrifices along the way before people's eyes start to open up. But, you know, just a couple of days ago,

a guy that we both know who actually was one of the very first campus pastors for one of my church's first campus sites. He reached out because he's had heart issues his whole adult life, has had three heart surgeries, valve replacements, just crazy stuff for a guy who's kind of our age. And he reached out to me because where he lives now, he's had some recurrence of heart issues and

Jason Allison (40:03)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (40:11)
They're trying to figure stuff out. they basically, this spring, told him, hey, listen, you have too much scar tissue from your previous surgeries. Even if we could put a new heart in you, we just don't think that the scar tissue would allow us to connect it. And so you would likely have a heart attack or a stroke and die on the table. And so they told him, you know, we're basically going to send you home to enjoy whatever life you have left and then you're to die. And so a guy our age, you know, is now being told, you got to

Jason Allison (40:39)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (40:40)
Two years, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, but two years is likely how long your bad heart's gonna hold out for. So he's calling me to say, I still have a bunch of friends and family in Ohio. So, hey, when I'm no longer here, could we do my services at your church? Absolutely, we love you. How much is that gonna cost? Absolutely nothing. Like we would never try to take advantage of your family at a time like that. Like no way. Let us love and care for your family.

Jason Allison (40:49)
you

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (41:11)
And, and it got, it got me thinking, cause you know, at our age, we still kind of live life thinking, you know, I got, I got, I got a while left. Yep. And, and to work, to do things, to live, to enjoy, to watch the kids grow up and get married and, know, have grand, well, you're already doing the grand kid thing, but you know what I mean? Like, you, like those are the kinds of things we're thinking about. But if, if for both of us, if we knew that we had a year left.

Jason Allison (41:19)
I got a couple more decades in me.

Rob Paterson (41:40)
man, what kinds of things would we say that we're like, man, we believe these things. We might even talk about them and say them to each other off air, because we know that each other, we're trustworthy people. But it's like, ah, that's going to truly get me canceled. That's going to, you know, it'll blow things up. But man, if we knew that we're going to see Jesus in 11 months from now, we're like, eh, it doesn't matter. So I'm just going to be not in a mean way, not in a cruel way.

Jason Allison (42:08)
Right,

right.

Rob Paterson (42:09)
but man, because we really do believe these things to be true, we're going to say some of them because we really want people to know and experience the truth.

Jason Allison (42:18)
Okay, you go first. What would you say?

Rob Paterson (42:21)
Well, you know what? mean, I would push into the, be ridiculous, know, God is not limited by someone's gender or genitalia, and he can use men and women equally to do all things. I would say that over and over nonstop. would, because I think it's foolish how people, you know, are like, no, the earth is obviously only, you know,

less than 10,000 years old. And I'm like, well, you've just in that silly statement alienated anyone who is scientific in nature or whatever, likely not true. ⁓ you know, I would certainly even with the eschatology things I'd put, these are all things that I'm just like, man, not only do I have scholars, biblical scholarship and theology kind of in my corner on those things.

Jason Allison (42:57)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (43:13)
But yeah, just, mean, and I have given time and prayer and whatever to those things. And I'm like, yeah, I'm, I am convinced about those things. I think people who take the other approach typically do so to the detriment of people coming to faith. So.

Jason Allison (43:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I would have to find something that I'm so convinced of. And the things you just listed, would, you know, I'd be right there with you banging the drum. So that, but there are some of the other more controversial stuff where I'm not sure I'm settled even on something that I've got this deep conviction about. What I would probably be the drum I would be banging is how about we listen?

And how about we love each other and let God deal with some of this. I, and I think you said this earlier, but in some way, or form, if we create a space where we can truly pursue God together and we can do it arm in arm, even if we disagree with each other, right? If we can pursue God together arm in arm, then guess what? We may be more likely to actually find

You know, this love and this thing that matters. But we have to work at that, right? It's not going to just happen. And so that I would bang the drum of I would rather see a bunch of people loving each other than a bunch of people who are theologically sound and are beaten up on others.

Rob Paterson (44:39)
Yeah, yeah. And a great way that came out of the early days way before me at my church was one of the early statements that really sort of became part of the foundation and the DNA of New Hope was we don't have to see eye to eye to walk hand in hand. And man, if God's people were like, if we see eye to eye on Jesus, the rest of it's secondary and let's do everything we can to see

Jason Allison (44:57)
I like that.

Rob Paterson (45:08)
the world and eternity impacted for the kingdom of God together.

Jason Allison (45:11)
Yeah. Well, on that note, pastors, leaders, followers of Jesus who take time to listen to us ramble, we appreciate you. We are cheering for you. We pray for you. We would love to hear from you. Maybe share some stories. We won't share them on air unless you give us permission. But you know, what's a time where you faced a decision where you were afraid if you said what you were thinking, you'd get canceled?

and, and, and let us, we'd love to hear, know, some of those instances, whether you said it or not, maybe you chickened out and we will still love you because we've done it too. ⁓ But yeah, we would love to hear from you. We are praying for you and we can't wait to hear your stories. looking forward to talking to you next week. take a minute and like, and subscribe. I mean, yeah, well, and maybe no one's going to listen next week because they all disagree with this and they're just going to.

Rob Paterson (45:46)
Yeah, amen.

If we're still here, we might get canceled.

Jason Allison (46:03)
throw our podcast to the curb. I don't even know if that's possible, but whatever. Yeah. Man, Rob, as always love hanging out with your brother. Love the conversation. And I love the fact that we can talk about things that generally we agree on a lot of stuff, but even on things that maybe we see it slightly different, it doesn't change. That we can walk hand in hand though. I don't really like holding your hand. It gets all.

slimy and it's kind of weird but

Rob Paterson (46:29)
Yeah.

And when we even leave room and space, even when we're convinced about like our own perspective, opinion, belief, just to consider what others have to say, man, I always, don't feel like that's, and at least in my life, in my five decades, for me, that's never been a slippery slope. And now I'm like out in the middle of nowhere. It has always made me better. Whether my mind has

Jason Allison (46:53)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (46:57)
shifted and changed some, or whether I'm even more sort of settled and locked into what I thought in the first place, it's always been a real gift for me.

Jason Allison (47:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. All right, guys and ladies, we will see you next week.