Do Churches Need a Lawyer? Guest: Regan VanSteenis

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson welcome Regan VanSteenis, a legal expert specializing in church governance and legal affairs. The conversation explores the vital role of legal counsel in churches, emphasizing the importance of governance structures that empower pastors while ensuring child safety and risk management. Regan shares insights on common mistakes churches make, the necessity of legal services for both large and small congregations, and the significance of integrity in church leadership. The episode concludes with encouragement for pastors to embrace legal support as an investment in their ministry and the church's future.

Meet Regan VanSteenis: (Church Law & Strategy)

Regan VanSteenis served as Chief Legal Counsel to Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen Ministries for 20 years. She has always had a passion to serve and empower the body of Christ. She knew early on that her vocational call was to provide legal counsel to those who were living out a higher calling. As the daughter of preacher herself, she feels honored to serve the Kingdom in this unique way.  

Over the course of her career, she has worked with and collaborated with the top ministries and attorneys in America in nearly every realm of the law, from business to entertainment, employment law, tax, contract negotiations, and high-profile litigation. 

This has allowed her to be a part of some of the most distinctive transactions for churches around the globe, including the purchase of an NBA arena that now serves as the 16,000-seat home of Lakewood Church; the first of its kind satellite radio channel,

Joel Osteen Channel 128, on SiriusXM; and at least 10 New York Times best-selling books with many more to come. Over the course of her career, Regan has advised on over $1 billion in business transactions for churches and industry leaders. 

Regan has now taken her vast legal experience in the business and non-profit worlds and provides strategic business advice and legal counsel to churches and ministries all over America. She has helped start over 100 churches and non-profit organizations,

 providing a solid legal and Biblical foundation for her clients, and she has vision for so much more.  

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Regan VanSteenis (00:00)
I don't have any clients that don't have the best heart and want to do the right thing and really want to, you know, make an impact on the world. But if you do one wrong thing, you don't pay your people right or a child safety issue, God forbid, or

know, IRS comes knocking, whatever, it damages the reputation of the gospel and it damages the reputation of Jesus and it damages the reputation of the pastor and then you lose your effectiveness, your influence for the gospel.

Rob Paterson (00:19)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (00:56)
Well, hey everybody, welcome back to the church talk podcast with Robin Jason. We are so glad that you took a few minutes this week to tune in and hear what's going on in the church talk world. Rob, are you a, mean, right now it's still cold and dreary and it's Ohio, but you know, life will go on. Did you attend the play last night that you said you're or it wasn't a play, was it? Play, okay, cause.

Rob Paterson (01:18)
Yeah, it's a play. And

actually, was, this is funny, because you can say this about anything that's never happened before, right? And this is how they build it. It was the world premiere. So our local theater in the tiny little town I live in has an incredible historic old theater. And the lady who runs it is amazing.

and we know her well and she has poured into so many people in our community. She's poured into, particular, my oldest son and some of his gifts and skills. And she's incredible. Well, she and a number of people from our community, actually a number of them are connected with our church too, they rewrote kind of and did an adaptation, an updated version of A Christmas Carol. so just, it was so much fun. And for me,

I always, when it gets to the point where Scrooge is really seeing his life clearly for the first time and he starts to change and he starts to hope that there is, in particular, and this is just me, I had to come home and hydrate because I was a weepy mess through the entire thing. But in particular, with the Tiny Tim stuff, and he sees this, his faithful employee who doesn't complain and is so optimistic and positive.

Jason Allison (02:22)
Hahaha!

Rob Paterson (02:33)
has this kid who likely isn't gonna live much longer, because they don't have the wherewithal or resources to address, know, and that softens this curmudgeon's heart. I'm just sitting there in the front row and I'm just weeping and yeah, it was great. And I also have a ticket for tonight. I'm going back. So I'm excited about that.

Jason Allison (02:51)
Of course.

Yeah. Well, you and I have sat on that front row a couple of times together watching various things and it's it is a lot of fun. It's a cool little place. Yes, I wish I could come tonight, but I have other other commitments that I can't do it. But all that to say, yeah, those type things are fun. And I love it when a church is connected to the community like that, you know, like that's that makes a huge difference in the way that you impact it. So, yeah. Well,

We got a guest today and I, I got to admit, we, this has been on the calendar for almost a month and I have been so excited and just cannot wait to get into the conversation. We actually met for the first time about 10 minutes ago. We have communicated via email and such, but I am excited because we have someone that we have Reagan van Stenis and you've probably never heard of her unless you operate in some pretty, pretty big high.

circles. ⁓

Rob Paterson (03:48)
She

might be the most famous person our listeners have never heard of and their lives are about to be different forever.

Jason Allison (03:50)
I. Yes.

Exactly. Reagan has served as the chief legal counsel for Lakewood Church and Joel Osteen Ministries for 20 years. And yet, you know, a few years ago, she decided that, as she put it a few minutes ago, she could do that in her sleep. She needed more of a challenge, which I think is awesome. And she has ventured out and started a practice where she is helping churches.

with what I would call legal and financial affairs, you know, around the country, everything from real estate transactions to setting up your governance and you know, the way you're organized because all those things matter. And they're very important. Reagan, man, welcome to the Church Talk podcast. We are so honored to have you.

Regan VanSteenis (04:33)
Thank you guys so much. I'm the one that's honored. Thank you so much for having me. And as I said, 10 minutes ago when we met, just appreciate the hard work that you guys do for the kingdom and even hosting this podcast to help pastors and leaders. Like that's, that's all that's my heart too. And the calling on my life, my portion on the wall, as they say in Nehemiah. so anyways, I'm honored to be here. Thank you.

Jason Allison (04:55)
yeah. Well, maybe let's just start out. Tell us a little bit about, you, where you grew up, how did you grow up in church? What, how did you come to faith? What does that look like?

Regan VanSteenis (05:04)
Yeah, so I had the great fortune of having really godly great parents and they like your kids. Thank God. And so I was raised in church. My dad was as a pastor and he was now he's an itinerant minister, but he was a pastor my whole growing up years. And you know, it's funny because a lot of I'm a PK. So a lot of people say like, did you rebel or whatever? And as I said before, like, I always thought that was funny because when you find Jesus, he's everything. And so

There is nothing else to find or to do or to get, right? So by God's grace, I got saved at a very young age. And when I was about 10 years old, the Lord, I grew up in Southern California. The Lord spoke to me about becoming a lawyer. And, you know, I always loved the church and I always loved the kingdom, but I. There wasn't church lawyers when I grew up, so when I was in law school, the last my last year of law school, a church here in Houston called Lakewood Church had a brand new pastor.

Jason Allison (05:51)
Hahaha

Regan VanSteenis (06:00)
And the Lord spoke to them to hire a lawyer on staff, if you can believe that. so through a series of very divine events, they found me. I was just a little baby lawyer and actually not even a lawyer yet. I was still in law school and they had called me and I actually shipped my stuff to Houston before I even got the job because I knew that I knew that I knew that this is what the Lord was calling me to. It was Ephesians 3 20 for my life more than I could ask, or imagine for.

Rob Paterson (06:18)
Well...

Jason Allison (06:20)
Yeah.

Regan VanSteenis (06:26)
and I couldn't imagine for it because it didn't exist. so, yeah, so that was about 25 years ago and I thought that I would be able to manage living in Houston for two years and it's been 25, so here I am. yeah.

Jason Allison (06:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (06:38)
Hmm

Jason Allison (06:40)
Yeah,

Rob and I were both very jealous of the view out your window ⁓ because it's like blue sky and warm. ⁓

Regan VanSteenis (06:44)
Bye!

Rob Paterson (06:47)
Yeah, it's gray where we are right now,

Regan VanSteenis (06:49)
Will you're welcome here

Rob Paterson (06:50)
every single day.

Regan VanSteenis (06:51)
anytime Houston welcomes you.

Jason Allison (06:53)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (06:53)
Awesome, well we'll see you tomorrow, because I think that we're going to take you up on that offer.

Regan VanSteenis (06:55)
Okay, perfect.

Okay, perfect. Perfect.

Rob Paterson (06:59)
Reagan, I'm going to share, and this is like the age old thing, so this won't be like weird, but this perspective that kind of exists out in the world is not my perspective, because I remember at 14 years old when I found the Lord, the guy who had built a relationship with me, who shared Jesus with me.

He was actually in law school in Canada at Queens University. actually he and I talked about, like I kind of wanted to be a lawyer and he and I talked about the difference we could make in maybe even going into practice together. And he is one of the top family lawyers in Canada to this day and he and I are good friends and we do things together still. But if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't know Jesus. But there's this...

You know, out in the culture, there's sort of this thing that lawyers are kind of sleazy, you know, and like you can't trust lawyers or whatever. And then I think in the church, you know, there's just this sense in which business and you you don't want to intermingle those things because there's the kingdom stuff and then there's that other stuff that somehow is lesser or whatever. And so I'm just wondering, like, what would you say? And you have a great perspective on this that we talked about even before we hit record, but you know, like

Do churches really even need lawyers? And how do you see that? How does all that work?

Regan VanSteenis (08:18)
Dear Jesus, yes, amen. Well, thank you for acknowledging that I'm not the only Christian lawyer out there. Thank you, Lord. You know, it's interesting, guys, because, you know, you guys know the rule of first mention, the biblical interpretation, the rule of first mention. So in the rule of first mention, in the Bible, the first place that God says somebody is filled with the Holy Spirit is this guy, Beelzebub. And he was the ops director of the tabernacle.

This guy was not a priest. was not Moses. He was not any of these like pastors, not apostles. It's none of those things. He was the ops director, right? He managed the building of the tabernacle. And so I actually, it's interesting because I have had some clients, very large clients that have said, that's a secular side of the church. And I'm thinking, well, that's just not scriptural. Even the Levites, they were the facilities team, the security team, the accounting team. So all of those that

Jason Allison (09:09)
Mm-hmm.

Regan VanSteenis (09:14)
All of that, you can't say that they weren't priests of God and that we're anointed of God and that like we didn't need the scribes who were the lawyers. Like churches need them. The Bible says that there is wisdom and strength and victory with counsel, right? So no place needs it more in my opinion than the church, but I'm biased, but it's still true.

Jason Allison (09:33)
Yeah. Well, you know, and here's the crazy thing. You're actually not the first lawyer to be on this podcast. I know. Yes, my really good friend of mine actually baptized him and his whole family. ⁓ He is a lawyer here in the Columbus area and actually works on a regional level because he's done political stuff, too, and whatever. But yeah, and he and I have had many, many conversations around that. so, yeah, I'm how do you think that

Regan VanSteenis (09:39)
What? I'm so happy you knew that.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (09:57)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (10:00)
having the presence of a lawyer or counsel, how does that help a church really push forward the gospel? As you see it from your perspective, how do those two things work together?

Regan VanSteenis (10:13)
Well, that's a good question. And I'm not sure I've even thought through that because I think maybe it's just super instinctual. Like it's everything I've done in my career for 25 years. the scripture says that a city without walls is essentially very vulnerable. The Lord says better than me. But basically that's what he says. so I think lawyers

for the church can help build that wall around the organization so that they really can do all that God's called them to. And I think a lot of times, know, pastors, I don't have any clients that don't have the best heart and want to do the right thing and really want to, you know, make an impact on the world. But if you do one wrong thing, you don't pay your people right or a child safety issue, God forbid, or

know, IRS comes knocking, whatever, it damages the reputation of the gospel and it damages the reputation of Jesus and it damages the reputation of the pastor and then you lose your effectiveness, your influence for the gospel. So I would say, guess that's how and why it's so important.

Rob Paterson (11:05)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (11:15)
Oh, yeah, I agree 100%. Yeah, it's, it's, well, it's good to hear that, though. I mean, as a as a, you know, network leader and pastor, I can say those things. But to hear it, you know, from the professional side, say, No, no, no, no, this is actually really important. I think that's I don't know, it's important for pastors to understand just the importance of that of that. And I like the analogy of the walls, right? You know, the idea is

Rob Paterson (11:16)
Yeah. Yes and amen.

Regan VanSteenis (11:20)
Bless you, Amen.

Jason Allison (11:43)
Hey, let's put a hedge of protection around us so that we don't do anything stupid, right? And we have the right policies and procedures in place, and therefore we can proclaim the gospel in a way, way better way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you go ahead, Rob.

Regan VanSteenis (11:55)
Totally free. Totally free.

Rob Paterson (11:59)
Yeah, yeah.

No, I was just thinking about this because, you know, I mean, I've just heard so many stories and I understand because like my heart when I'm dealing with people is man, they're a good person and we trust them and we know them, right? So yeah, they want to serve with the kids, their background check or maybe there's churches that don't even do background checks, which is just like mind boggling and frightening to me, you know, but it's like, it'll be okay. We know them and then something happens or something comes out.

And it's like, listen, why didn't you do this? And the heart of a pastor is great. You want that, you wanna give people the benefit of the doubt and you wanna love them, but you also need to be protected. And so Reagan, I'm wondering, what are some things, as you have done this for a long time, just mistakes that churches and ministries make, because maybe they don't think about that other side, they don't really build those walls as effectively.

Regan VanSteenis (12:53)
Yeah, well, number one, you know, this is a, I don't know why we call things that we do as lawyers, but governance is very, very important because that governance structure that you have, I was mentioning to Jason and Rob before we hopped on guys that, you know, a lot of times, not a lot of times, all the time in the U.S. church, we think about the law before we think about when we're building our governance structures, our boards, et cetera, before we think about scripture.

And that I have seen cause so much disunity in the body of Christ and so much pain for pastors and their families. And it's so easy to fix. Like, let's just follow the scripture. It's not hard. So that's one thing. Another area obviously is child safety. You know, a lot of pastors saying I do background checks and have a check-in system and that's my child safety program. And if that's the case, God forbid, but you better get your insurance ready because you're probably going to have an issue. And the reason why I say that is because the average abuser abuses

close to 100 kids before anything appears on their background check. So that is not enough. That's a big one. There's tons of intellectual property issues at churches that we're not thinking about that, you know, right now seems fine, but it's mold growing in the walls. HR, obviously it's funny guys. I asked a group of like 7,000 pastors one time I pulled them and asked them what they thought their biggest issue is. And they said, my staff. So that's a big area that.

Rob Paterson (13:50)
Hmm

Jason Allison (13:51)
Wow.

Mmm.

Regan VanSteenis (14:15)
I think pastors could use some support in and definitely have a lot of experience there. I think one thing there is a lot of times when people have to get promoted, and by that I mean terminated, it's somewhere else. They leave the church, but there is a way to do it, a grace-filled way that a lot of times if you do it right, they'll stay within your congregation. And anyway, so those are just some of the many issues that churches face. And these ones are easy to fix, guys.

Rob Paterson (14:18)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (14:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, yeah. And and I've I literally in the last six months, almost every single issue you just raised, I have dealt with a church who's dealing, you know, dealing with one of those issues. And we have a lot of churches right now that are going through some restructuring, especially just in the way they are governed. Right. And they're evolving into an elder model or this model or that model. And and that's all good. And I'm just curious, like what?

Rob Paterson (14:50)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (15:08)
What do you say from your perspective? Like what is a solid governance structure that allows both for every church a little different and every part of the country is a little different, but it also it allows for the freedom to be who they are, but also stays legal and stays biblical because those are a lot of caveats.

Regan VanSteenis (15:29)
A lot

of things, a lot of things. I always say that the law needs to serve the church, not the other way around. again, most people set up like, the law says I have to have three board members and three officers, which we do, we do of course. But one thing I try to tell pastors a lot is to remember that the sheep never tell the shepherd what to do. And so we have to be very careful on how we are choosing board members, who we're choosing and.

in a manner that empowers the pastor to lead as the Holy Spirit has called him to lead without, they did this one thing wrong and now we're going to vote them out and we did this and like that has to be avoided because pastors need to feel free to lead as God called them to within the bounds of the law, of course.

Jason Allison (16:13)
Yeah, that's a struggle because in America, right, we are all about democracy. And that's just one area I've really found the church and I'm using that in a generic sense. But the church has adopted an American mindset of democracy when quite honestly, true democracy in the way a lot of churches do it is, you know, basically mob rule at some point, right? If everybody because I've seen a church where

Rob Paterson (16:13)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (16:40)
the majority of people are in the wrong. But because of the way they vote, they get to have their way. so people say it's a checks and a balance type thing. But honestly, at some point, we have to trust the Holy Spirit to lead. once you get to a certain size, that congregational rule as the way everything is done gets unscalable. It won't grow anymore.

Rob Paterson (16:43)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (17:02)
Is that kind of like at a church like Lakewood, and I just use that as an example, any church that size, is that kind of a general structure that you have seen that works? that, pastor, what kind of accountability structures are generally in place, especially in maybe a larger church that could be scaled down?

Regan VanSteenis (17:22)
Well, let me say this. won't speak obviously to any of my particular clients, but I will say this. is interesting. I'll come all the way around. Okay, Jason, but I will say this. I had this guy one time call me and say, hey, you know, can you help me start up my do my startup paperwork, which that is so my heart. Like my dad was a church planner and I just I love to help these guys start on a strong foundation. Right. And a lot of what I see out there is they're not.

And so anyways, I walked him through how I like to structure the governance and that, and he said to me, well, if we do it that way, who will keep me accountable? And I said, first of all, if that's what you're asking, you're not in the right business, integrity and the fear of the Lord. Like if you don't have the fear of the Lord to do the right thing, like what are we doing here? But I would say that for the most successful churches that I know of, the pastor really is, or that I work with.

The pastor is really free to lead how he needs to. Obviously we have boards. Obviously we have, you know, internal controls. Obviously we have these things in place, but guys, you guys know as well as I do, if somebody wants to do something wrong, like they're going to do it. Like, it's just like, you can have all the boards in the world, but it doesn't, it doesn't, isn't going to stop somebody from doing something wrong. And so, I just, you know, the, the best churches I've seen out there really,

Jason Allison (18:35)
Yeah.

Regan VanSteenis (18:40)
give the pastor freedom to lead as the Holy Spirit leads. Certainly checks and balances, but freedom to lead as the Holy Spirit leads.

Rob Paterson (18:49)
Yeah, amen. Reagan, you said when you were talking about some of the things and like Jason said, like these were issues that he's dealt with with multiple churches, even just in recent weeks and months. And you're like, those are easy to fix. And when you said that, like I'm thinking to myself, I know a bunch of our listeners are like, you know what, if you can help me fix my staff problems and my, you know, the fact that I don't have it figured out how to protect the kids, like, know, you know, I mean, all those things like easy to fix, you know,

Regan VanSteenis (19:05)
you

Rob Paterson (19:18)
Uh, and, so we were just talking about bigger churches, but the reality is that 95 % of churches in America are under 500 and actually 80 % are under 100. And I know when I talked to a lot of these smaller churches who are like, we can't even hardly pay our part-time pastor, you know, to do what he does or, uh, so what in the world or like how, how in the world can we even, you know, think about.

Regan VanSteenis (19:27)
Exactly.

Rob Paterson (19:46)
these legal services or things like that. Why should and why do these smaller churches also need to think about these things and how do they get access?

Regan VanSteenis (19:56)
Yes, well, listen, guys, I'm not here to pitch myself. OK, but but I will tell you, I have online programs for churches of all sizes. And the reason why I have that is specifically because I want every church to get all the knowledge that is in my experience and in my brain. I want them all to have it. And I always say, like, I don't want any church not to get the help because they can't afford it. Although I do think it's important, you know, if you don't pay for something, you don't value it.

And so there is something to that, but there also, I didn't say this in the beginning, but one big problem that we do have in the church is that pastors are retiring without any money. that, again, I can fix that easy, very simply, and also help the church have more money for themselves just by switching how they are handling their taxes. And so a lot of times when you go through my program, it pays for itself because we do a couple of little changes that are,

great. then, you know, the Bible says my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. in this area, I think it's really, you know, there's obviously it's true. It's the Bible, but like there's so much truth in it because yeah, again, like I have all these things we talked about, I have them laid out in a very clear, simple program that any any pastor of any size can purchase. And again, it'll pay for itself.

Jason Allison (21:11)
If someone wanted to reach out, just to find out, go ahead and I'm going to peddle your wares. It's fine. Okay. I mean, we wouldn't have you on here and then say, sorry, no one can call you. ⁓ mean, what website should they go to even just to get started?

Regan VanSteenis (21:17)
Okay.

No problem.

Rob Paterson (21:24)
You

Regan VanSteenis (21:28)
Sure, it's churchlawstrategy.com and there is a quiz on there that you answer, I don't know, five or six questions and then it'll help you figure out which program is best for you. But then of course, if you want to talk about it or you have questions, me or someone from my team will be happy to talk you through it.

Jason Allison (21:46)
Okay, good. Yeah. And I will put that in the show notes as well. I just wanted to make sure, cause let's be honest, people don't read the show notes half the time unless they're looking for something. So let's at least give it to them once. So they, they have it. And I, I, I, you know, work through your website, just looking at stuff. And, and I, what I like about it is exactly what you said. It's, it's about informing people so that they know how to build things in the right way. ⁓ and, and, and even a smaller church, I mean, I was really hoping when you said, you know, if you don't have retirement,

Regan VanSteenis (21:49)
Thank you.

right.

Jason Allison (22:16)
that you could fix that that you were talking about making a donation to Robin to me to cover a retirement, but that's,

Rob Paterson (22:20)
Yeah, that's what we thought

Regan VanSteenis (22:22)
Well, I

won't, maybe I will or maybe I won't, but I for sure will put you on list for my next webinar where I talk about it and where I talk about saving your church a gazillion dollars and how you can be perfect. You can self fund that baby all day long without costing your church a dime.

Jason Allison (22:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (22:32)
We're in, I'm in.

Jason Allison (22:39)
That's a good thing. So, you know, go ahead, Rob.

Rob Paterson (22:43)
Yeah, Reagan, before Jason asks the next question, I just want to say, and I've said this numerous times over the years that we've been doing this podcast, but I am always blown away. You know, mega church pastors that we've talked to, know, people who Christian healthcare CEOs, it really doesn't matter. Even lawyers, man, like I am always blown away when we get a chance to sort of like lift up the hood.

and talk to people. Virtually always the kingdom is first. Like people really do care about God and his people and the church. And of course for all of us, right? Like there's things we got to do. There's value in our work and that value ought to be, you know, but I just really appreciate. mean, even here in just the last 25 minutes, I can see your heart for God and for people and for the church.

And that just matters. And so thank you for that.

Regan VanSteenis (23:35)
No, no, you. I appreciate you saying that very much.

Jason Allison (23:38)
Well, as we're talking about churches and we're talking about risks, especially, right? what kind of risks do churches need to consider when they start to talk about strategic plans?

moving forward, maybe it's growth, maybe it's, you how do you, how do you counsel churches in balancing that idea of a risk versus, you know, stepping out in faith?

Regan VanSteenis (24:04)
What a great question, Jason. First of all, I would say that if the Lord has put something on your heart to do, let's find a way to say yes. Now there's always going to be risks with everything you do, but there are also ways to mitigate these risks. So we have to think through issues. A lot of times lawyers in this space just say, no, we can't do this because whatever.

But there's lots of ways to mitigate risk, right? With policies, with insurance, with all these things. We can't let the risk stop us from what the Lord has called us to do. And we can't shrink back in fear, obviously. The book of Hebrews says we're not those people. So we just need to find a way to say yes and find a way to make it great for the church and still not like gonna bring the church down if something goes wrong. And there's always, I can't honestly remember one time that

Jason Allison (24:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Regan VanSteenis (24:55)
the brains didn't get together and I haven't been able to work with the brains at any church. As you guys know, I work with a lot of big ones to make that happen.

Jason Allison (25:02)
Yeah.

So I'm just thinking, I mean, and I don't want to cross any client privilege or anything like that. But I mean, one of the things that you talk about, even on your website, you know, in your bios, you helped Lakewood Church in the purchase of the arena that they have now. And that was a pretty significant leap of faith. I mean, it's not like they just had money laying around that much money laying around. They could just pay cash. You know, I mean, that took time. That was a process.

Regan VanSteenis (25:10)
You

Yeah.

Jason Allison (25:29)
As you I mean, that's a that I think is a macro version of what a lot of churches deal with on a daily basis of, hey, if we want to do this, it does require us to step out as you worked with them. And as you work through that, I how did you mitigate some of the risk of that kind of faith step? You know, and it was faith step, right? It was not they didn't know all the answers before they signed the papers. They were moving forward. How was that experience for you?

Regan VanSteenis (25:58)
Wow, that's a great question. Well, you guys know that was like 25 years ago, okay? Or 20 some years ago, but yeah. Thank you so much. just turned 50 last week. me Jesus. Anyways, yeah, you know, that was a very exciting time and very fun. And I always say during that time we were all working on adrenaline because there's like so many things were happening all at once. mean, we that

Jason Allison (26:03)
I thought you were only like 28 years old. I don't understand.

Rob Paterson (26:09)
Hahaha

Regan VanSteenis (26:25)
For those of you who are listening the church acquired the NBA arena in Houston for our new church and then proceeded to put a lot of money into obviously refurbishing it to turn it from an NBA arena to a sanctuary for the Lord and that was While Joel was right. Joe pastor Joel listing was writing his first New York Times bestseller

at the same time as we decided to take Lakewood on the road and filled arenas all over the country. I mean, it was just like one thing and it was so fun. But that project was a big leap of faith. There is no question it was, but like from a budget perspective, way beyond what we, know, way beyond probably what was reasonable, maybe, I don't know. you know, Joel just, Pastor Joel was just really clear that this is what the Lord had called him to do and that.

the Lord would make a way. And obviously we had financing, that's not a secret. And so I was actually really grateful for that financing, not only because it allowed us to do what the Lord had called us to do, but also because, you know, when a bank comes in and gives you, you know, sizable sum of money, they check under the hood and, know, that was great. I mean, it was great. Like it confirmed a lot, you know, just the level of integrity that that church operates with and that family. And so, you know,

I don't know how to quite answer that question, Jason. think it was just a very clear, it's like I said, find a way to say yes. It was a very clear calling and the Lord spoke to pastor. And then we were just going to find a way to make it work. And like, well, it's great. What's this grace?

Jason Allison (27:49)
Yeah. Well, what I, that,

Rob Paterson (27:51)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (27:53)
yeah, that what I love about that is you looked at the, you know, the bank, the lending institutions looking under the hood as a positive, you know, a lot of churches and organizations view that as a negative. like, well, we don't want you to see everything, but you know, and, I've found with churches, anytime they're in a transition period, whether it's acquiring a new property,

Regan VanSteenis (28:01)
Very positive.

Jason Allison (28:14)
or a pastor is leaving and another one's coming or any of those type situations, it's the perfect opportunity to pop open the hood, see what's going on, do some evaluation and assessment because that is a time where you can receive it because if one guy's leaving and another's coming, it lays the groundwork for everything. If you're purchasing a new, whether it's a one acre of land or

a thousand, doesn't matter, it's a time for you to evaluate, hey, is our finances running well? And, you know, are we doing things in a transparent way that's both legal, but also just the right way to do it? You know what I mean? So I think what I gleaned from your response there, though, was that probably the best way to mitigate the risk is to allow the evaluation and the assessment. And then

Regan VanSteenis (29:05)
What if you

don't? You'd never find me. You hopefully have nothing to hide.

Jason Allison (29:06)
Yeah, and then all of a sudden you're on

it. Yeah. Hopefully.

Rob Paterson (29:10)
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Regan VanSteenis (29:14)
Well, I will

tell you this, Jason and Rob and all of you wonderful listeners out there. I have definitely seen a cap on the growth of a handful of churches because they lack excellence in this area. And then, and in a lot of areas, like I have just noticed that where there's, yeah, where there's lacking that spirit of excellence, like Daniel had, the Bible says, there is a cap on growth a lot of times. And so I just encourage you, if you are a pastor or a leader who is running a church, you know, just

pray for that spirit of excellence in all of the areas of the church administration and leadership, because I think it'll help you grow.

Rob Paterson (29:50)
Yeah, that's so good. Reagan, you said earlier that churches really ought to have a governance sort of style or model that really does enable pastors to do what God has led them to do, which I love that. I know so many people and I think probably everybody listening has at least been in one environment or another where it's like, I've heard clearly from the Lord and yet,

this structure, this board, this team is always saying no, no, no to literally everything that is in my mind and my heart to do. it creates frustration, it creates kind of stagnance and all those kinds of things. So I'm just wondering maybe, you know, if somebody called you right after this podcast and said, hey, like I'm starting this thing or I'm kind of stuck in this thing and we need to like restructure a little bit.

You know, what are just one or two practical things that you would say, you know, here are some things that churches could do to structure themselves well, that are going to provide for healthy leadership and accountability, but also allow people enough freedom to do the things God has called them to do.

Regan VanSteenis (30:59)
Yeah, so that's a great question, Rob. And as I said, it's much easier to do it right from the start. But if you have board members who are actively resisting the pastor and what he feels like the Lord has called him to do, and I don't mean obviously crazy things. mean, like, you know, just how they want to lead the church and the strategy for next year, whatever. You need new ones.

Rob Paterson (31:06)
Yeah.

Regan VanSteenis (31:20)
And that's hard because a lot of times board members get very entrenched and they feel very take things very personal about the board and you know, all the things. Um, and so, you know, you might, it might take you a couple of years to maybe, you know, put a three year term limit, except for the founder or the past, you know, or the pastor, a term limit or put something in place so that, um, the people who are on the board are supporting the pastor and the dreams and the calling of God that is on his life and what God has called him to do. That's hard.

I know it is. you can also, you know, there's other things I would, if anyone wants to call me and talk to me, not on this podcast, I'm happy to, but there are other things that you can build into your bylaws that just protect the pastor and his family that, you know, when it comes to spiritual leadership, for example, he, you know, his decision kind of trumps everybody or, you know, whatever, you have to watch your language, but.

But there are things that you can do like that. Like let's make sure board members are serving the calling of God on this house and on this pastor and let's make sure the pastor is able to make those spiritual decisions to lead the church.

Jason Allison (32:27)
Yeah, I think a lot of the times the reason they're in a position where they're finding resistance, oftentimes it's not them. It's the previous pastor that, you know, and the church responded and the pendulum swung to the other side where it, you know, they're responding to previous hurts, you know, and once bitten twice shy, right? I mean, last time I trusted the pastor, he, you know, ended up doing something stupid that cost us tons of money for no reason.

Regan VanSteenis (32:35)
Mm.

Yes.

Rob Paterson (32:47)
You

Jason Allison (32:54)
You get what I'm saying. And so that's the hard part in dealing with my work with churches. Oftentimes, I I bet 90 % of the time, the people who are on the boards have been there longer than the pastor. Now, that's not always the case when you plant the church. get that. And that makes it even harder because I've had a chairman of a board look at me and say,

Regan VanSteenis (33:07)
Yeah, it counts.

Jason Allison (33:15)
I was here before the pastor got here and I will be here when he leaves. Yeah, so like I mean that that's and that's the tension they face now. Well, he's. Yeah, he is functioning as the leader, whether he means to or not. Yeah, and calling that out like that's where someone like you coming in and saying, let me just lay this out, you know, that's where someone like that can actually be really positive.

Regan VanSteenis (33:19)
Ooh, praise the Lord. So honestly, it's either faster. It sounds like the faster than it's the speaker, but that's, I mean, so it sounds like the main. Right. Right.

Rob Paterson (33:28)
Mmm.

Regan VanSteenis (33:41)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (33:44)
impact on the church because you know, you don't have a dog in that hunt. You're welcome to step in and say that's that's just wrong. You know, like that is not the way God wanted his churches to be structured. So I really do appreciate that. What I'm just curious, like you you've worked with a lot of churches now. What's like the most fulfilling thing that you have experienced when you are working with churches?

Regan VanSteenis (34:08)
heavens, great question. You know, I'm not sure what is the most fulfilling. I will tell you one thing. You know, what we used to do with Pastor Joel, Pastor Joel Osteen, we used to do these nights of hope where we'd take basically the Lakewood Church service and go to these big cities and big arenas and Yankee Stadium and all these things. And I remember sitting at the front actually of Madison Square Gardens.

and in the front row and Joel, Pastor Joel gave an altar call and I will never forget the sound as long as I live. And it was all the seats from people standing up. And I was at first, I was like, what is that noise? And I looked behind me and it was just thousands of people standing to their feet to give their lives to the Lord. And I, it broke me because I felt so humbled and so honored to be a part of

Jason Allison (34:40)
⁓ yeah.

Wow.

Regan VanSteenis (34:58)
that experience. And, you know, again, I, I feel that about all of my clients when I see what they're doing for the kingdom on the face of the earth. I just get very humbled and I feel privileged. Like, wow, God, I, I'm not the one standing up there preaching the message or giving the altar call, but like, I have my part and I'm grateful. I'm just grateful for that. So it's really, you know,

Jason Allison (35:13)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:13)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Regan VanSteenis (35:25)
I have, it's funny to say, I have one secular client. The rest are all churches, mainly mega churches. just every day I find their work fulfilling, every day, every day, which is a gift. Yeah, it is, it is a gift. I'm super grateful.

Jason Allison (35:36)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:37)
What a gift.

Hmm. So the thing that I've been most excited about, since, know, we were reached out to, and it's like, Hey, we think Reagan would be a great person for your podcast. And, and as we like had that conversation, I'm like, wow, like just the things you've done, the places you've been, you know, the people that you've gotten to sort of get to know and rub shoulders with. mean, I've never been to Lakewood. I only know

I know, I mean, when we get there tomorrow and hang out with you, then we can go check it out, right? ⁓ But you know, I mean, I only know Pastor Joel from afar, and so we don't know him. And just like any other big thing, whether it's a megachurch or a pastor, you you Google anybody and there's, you know, there's opinions, right? People either love or have reasons why they just don't like or critique or whatever.

Jason Allison (36:11)
Thank

Regan VanSteenis (36:14)
you

Rob Paterson (36:33)
And I just thought what a really cool opportunity to ask somebody who knows, because you have been there, you've been there for a long time. I mean, you you know the church, you know this pastor, you know, can you just give us like a little peek into like, tell us like, what's this church all about? Who's this person? Because I know just from afar, I have learned things from and benefited from, you know, Joel and his approach to things and

Yeah, I just love to hear from someone who knows.

Regan VanSteenis (37:04)
I'm just warning you, you're gonna get a lot of keyboard warriors on this, okay?

Jason Allison (37:07)
Hey,

Rob Paterson (37:09)
We're low-key trying to get cancelled anyway, it's fine.

Jason Allison (37:11)
week's episode, or two weeks ago, the title of the episode was, How to Get Cancelled. So see, we're all about it.

Regan VanSteenis (37:16)
Okay.

Rob Paterson (37:18)
Yeah, it's fine.

Regan VanSteenis (37:19)
I used to tell a pastor, like, we need battle pay because half the time people love them and then half the time people want to go to war over it. No. ⁓

Jason Allison (37:25)
Yeah. Yep.

Rob Paterson (37:27)
Which anytime

someone's doing something, that's gonna be the result.

Regan VanSteenis (37:31)
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Well, you know, I grew up in a church that taught the Bible very, very strongly. And I'm very grateful for that because, you know, the word is Christ, right? And so I love, I feel like the biggest gift God has ever given me in my life is a knowledge of the word. Like it's, you know, you guys know it's life itself. So, but then, you know, after I graduated from law school, I came to work at Lakewood Church.

And I will say my church growing up taught me the Bible and Pastor Joel and his family taught me how to be godly. And they are everything you see. People ask me all the time, is he the same on TV as he is in real life? He's better in real life. He's just full of integrity, full of kindness, full of generosity. And, you know, he's kind to his enemies in a way that I didn't know you could be.

know, the Bible says if you walk with wise men, you'll be wise. And I again, like I'm super grateful for his influence in my life, just of who he is as a person, as a human being. It really has grown me as a human being in godliness. And I'm really grateful for that. It's eternal. And I'm grateful for that.

Jason Allison (38:39)
Wow, that's really good. mean, I really appreciate that. And Rob and I are friends with multiple mega church pastors, right? And it's interesting because the ones that we know and hang out with and spend time with, I would describe them very similarly to the way you just described Pastor Joel. Even though they are on TV or do this or whatever, you know what? When we just sit down and have dinner together,

They're just real people who love Jesus and they love people and they have a heart for that. And so it's very refreshing, right? When you see so, and let's be honest, the last five to six years of the church have seen a lot of very celebrity pastor oriented people fall from grace. And, you know, and I look at a ministry like Lakewood church that is ripe for attacks, right? Cause it's so public and they're so, you know, draw so much attention, but they're really,

Regan VanSteenis (39:08)
Right.

Jason Allison (39:33)
haven't been like, you know, I mean, because I do think the integrity of the leader matters. And so that's what I, yeah, yeah. And that's what I hear you saying even as, as a challenge to other church leaders, whether you're a church of a hundred or a church of a hundred thousand integrity matters. And that's, yeah, yeah. So any, mean, we're, about out of time here and this has been a ton of fun. And, and Rob and I might have to plan a

Regan VanSteenis (39:38)
Yeah, I got curious.

does.

Jason Allison (40:00)
road trip to Houston now just to hang out and do it'd be a lot of fun. ⁓ yeah, anything you would say you've got the ear of pastors and leaders, what kind of encouraging words might you want to leave them with?

Regan VanSteenis (40:01)
I'm sorry.

many times.

That's a good question. will say pastors, you're doing the hard work and I, you know, I know you guys don't get into ministry to do paperwork. You are people people and you're out there serving the kingdom and really doing the hard stuff. But, um, you know, don't be afraid to pay legal fees. Don't be afraid to have a legal budget. Don't be afraid of that. It's dollars well spent that could really preserve you, your family, your legacy. Um, and, and most importantly, the church and the reputation of Jesus Christ. So just encourage you there.

It's okay. It's okay to have legal fees. I know so many pastors of smaller churches find that well, we can't we don't but but you can and you can and you should and you know, just as we leave just keep up the good work that you're doing and Like I said, you're doing the tough stuff. So thank you. Thank you for doing the hard work the hard work for the kingdom

Jason Allison (41:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, Reagan, thank you for the time and for the conversation. This has been has been great. And we really appreciate it. And we wish you the best in your practice and all that you're doing, because you are helping churches as well. And, you know, we will we will direct anyone who reaches out to us. We, you know, we can direct them to your website so they can find out more if they if they need more more information. So thank you so much.

Regan VanSteenis (41:18)
Thank you.

Jason Allison (41:35)
Yeah, to our listeners, thank you for another week. We have enjoyed this. Feel free to reach out to us. We would be happy to connect you with Reagan or her team so that you can get some help. And Rob and I occasionally help churches as well. And so we would love to serve you in any way we can. We are grateful for you, and we do ask if you

get a chance to like and subscribe and all that fun stuff. But mainly we just want you to know we love you. We're cheering for you and we look forward to talking to you again next week. Have a great week.