The Apostles' Gospel with Paul Pavao

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Rob Paterson and Jason Allison engage in a lively discussion with guest Paul Pavao about his faith journey, the importance of the gospel, and the call to follow Jesus. They explore the challenges of church gatherings during inclement weather, the significance of personal testimony, and the need for a deeper understanding of evangelism that emphasizes the resurrection of Jesus. The conversation also touches on the concepts of eternal security and the importance of living a life of obedience to Christ.

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Transcript

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Jason Allison (00:01)
Well, hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We are so glad that you tuned in this week. Rob, it's been you know, we're in the end of January and here in Ohio. I don't know. We've got what, eight feet of snow or some crazy amount. It was ridiculous. Yeah, that's a preacher count, right? Eight feet. How many people were there? Thousands.

Rob Paterson (00:19)
Something like that, yeah.

Paul Pavao (00:21)
Wow.

Rob Paterson (00:26)
Yeah,

it may be more like a foot, you know, mean, relative to it's sort of like, you know, I was talking to somebody who said, man, I used to live in Atlanta. And if it even thinks about snowing, like the whole city, snow closes down. And I feel like Ohio, anytime you're talking a foot, give or take a few inches, people treat it in that exact same way. Which is just insane to me. I actually told a story this Sunday because we still, we were one of the

Jason Allison (00:31)
Close enough.

Rob Paterson (00:54)
few churches probably in the state of Ohio that had still had our actual in-person gatherings. And the crazy thing is we had brand new first time, never been in the building people at both of the gatherings. We didn't have like, had tiny crowd relative to what we usually have, but there too, was just, it sort of pressed into me that like, there's a reason why if the roads are legally open or why we have church and if it's a small group and because we, never really works like this.

Jason Allison (01:09)
Right.

Rob Paterson (01:21)
Even the team that was there, there was like one person who got a little grumpy, but everybody else was like, this was kind of a cool thing. And we got to interact a little bit more. And it was just, you know, so, so all those were good things, but I'm like, we may have missed an opportunity to love people and help them see Jesus. And so I thought that there was a lot of really cool things about that, even though, you know, there was the least one who was like, this is dumb and it's like, you didn't have to come. You really didn't have to come, you know,

Jason Allison (01:32)
Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah, this was optional.

Rob Paterson (01:52)
Yeah, but I still remember growing up in Canada, a crazy thing. Like if I woke up and there was that much snow and it was still snowing, I literally would be as a 16, 17 year old kid, I'd be so excited. I'd be brushing off my mom's front wheel drive, super light Toyota Corolla. And I'd hop in with my skis and I drive the hour now probably an hour and a half because I had to go a little slower.

to get to the ski hill I had a season's pass to, and I prayed that it would snow hard all day so there would be six to eight inches of powder on the hill all day long. And I did that as a kid, really, just with my driver's license. And again, people around here have been driving for like 20, 30, 40 years, they're just like, I can't, it's it's winter time, what do you expect?

Jason Allison (02:38)
Yeah,

that's true. Yeah, I know here here in, you know, Delaware County, Franklin County, it actually went to a level three snow emergency mid morning Sunday morning, which is the worst possible time because, know, if you're trying to make a call on, know, but yeah, most of the churches around here were closed just, you know, because it was it was dangerous. I mean, I know I couldn't have gotten out of my draw out of my neighborhood, so it didn't matter.

Rob Paterson (02:47)
Mm.

Jason Allison (03:03)
What I was doing, but yeah

Rob Paterson (03:04)
For sure.

Yeah, and around here everybody has all wheel drive, four wheel drive vehicles, know, trucks, because lots of farmers in this area. And I still remember maybe this would be helpful and instructive for pastors who are always like, I don't know what to do. Like our policy has always been if it hits a level three, the roads are legally closed. And so we won't have church just tune in online, you know, or we'll hit you next week. But if it's if even a level two, it's like if the roads are legally open, we will be here.

Jason Allison (03:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:33)
So if you would be out and that's something you're into, awesome, we will be here for you. And if you don't feel comfortable, if you would not go to work, if you would not go to the store, please don't, if you feel unsafe, please don't risk anything to join us, but, tune in online. And I did that. We lived in Indianapolis for eight years and I still remember the one Sunday we canceled.

Jason Allison (03:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:58)
And we had to make the call early enough. And I drove into the building just to post a sign and to be there in case anyone still showed up, didn't get word. And when I got there, you know, the roads had been cleared and salted. The lot had been plowed, you know, like we totally could have had church and virtually everyone could have made it. And I'm like, I'm just never going to do this again. I mean, everybody was ready. It's not like on Sunday morning, you're not ready to, you know, go. So yeah, I just said, I'm never going to do this prematurely ever again.

Jason Allison (04:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, lessons learned, right? And it's always it's always a guess when you're, you know, dealing with weather and stuff. But yeah. Well, hey, we got a guest today and I'm excited for this conversation. You know, I this is this is new to me, like, you know, I read through some of his website and some of his books and, just and so he's new to the game, so to speak, in that he's not a nationally known

You know all this stuff, but man yet exactly yet is the key word.

Rob Paterson (04:54)
Yet.

Maybe

the Church Talk podcast is what puts them on the map. ⁓

Jason Allison (05:00)
That's right. Our tens of listeners

may be not. Paul, welcome to the Church Talk podcast. Man, we are so glad that you would join us today. And I'm looking forward to to our conversation. What I didn't even ask. Are you somewhere that it's warm or are you somewhere where it's cold and snowy?

Paul Pavao (05:08)
Yeah.

It's cold and snowy. Yeah, so we're in northwest Arkansas. You know, we didn't get 20 feet of snow. We only got eight inches. But that's a lot of northwest Arkansas. This is a place where you don't we don't have levels. We have to know and not snow and everything shuts down if there's snow.

Jason Allison (05:24)
Okay.

Rob Paterson (05:40)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (05:43)
That's that's true. Yeah, our problem here is you know, we got all that snow and it hasn't been above like 12 degrees all week So it's not like it's melting off or anything. So it's it's and it's gonna be this way for a while I think it was negative seven on my watch this morning when I when I and that's just I mean It just makes me wonder if God actually loves us, you know, like it's things like that makes me question things. But anyway

Rob Paterson (06:04)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and

Jason around here because of those cold temps. And actually when if and when this and I know that's our plan releases into video and people may be watching this and they see a guy like in my hallway moving around. I actually my bathroom remodel is like literally 90 plus percent finished. And so he's doing that. But he this morning when he got here, he was like.

My car has never not started and it was so cold I had to put a trickle charger on my battery on my car because it would not turn over because it was, you know, whatever a gazillion degrees below zero I think is what it hit in middle of the night.

Jason Allison (06:40)
I

yeah, that's probably pretty accurate by preacher count again. Anyway, man, Paul, so maybe now that we've, you know, talked for a while to tell us a little bit about about you, like, did you grow up in the church? You know, how did you come to faith?

Rob Paterson (06:44)
No.

Paul Pavao (06:57)
raised Catholic. My experience as a child was I was the only one in my CCD classes, that's Catholic Sunday School. We call it Catechism. I the only one that was really interested in anything that was being taught.

So I was, but I was small, timid, on a lot, so not very bold. And they taught me in catechism class that when I got confirmed, so the Catholics do a confirmation around the age of 12 or 13, and it's the equivalent of I guess what the Pentecostals would do with, you know, laying hands on you so that you received the Holy Spirit.

And so they said I would become a soldier for price, bold, and, you know, and it didn't happen. Basically, I was waiting for it. I wanted I was excited about it. So I pretty much when it didn't happen, I just mentally I couldn't physically quit going to mass because I was 12 or 13 and my parents went so I had to as well. And I just want this doesn't work. Policism doesn't work. My mom was a ponderer.

Jason Allison (07:46)
Hahaha

Paul Pavao (08:08)
from I think she was raised her to Christ. They were out in the country. It may have been several denominations because there were so few people. As a matter of fact, up near you all in Indiana. And yeah, she was giving me like there were Archie comics that were Christian back then and Jack Fittrack, she gave me those things. So then I tried.

Jason Allison (08:12)
Hmm?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Pavao (08:33)
you know, getting on my knees and praying and asking Jesus into my heart. It didn't seem like anything happened with that either. So I would lay awake and I open my arms and go, Jesus, please come in my heart.

They told me about Revelation 320 is knocking at the door and you got to open it. The knobs only on your side.

Jesus, I can find Jesus, you don't see a door or not. month of that, I just gave up. Well, okay, this doesn't work either. So I kind of wandered off into Eastern mysticism. I read a book on, you know, hypnotism and reincarnation and they were hypnotizing people and regressing them back.

Jason Allison (09:02)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (09:02)
Hahaha.

Jason Allison (09:04)
Yeah.

Paul Pavao (09:19)
and they were remembering all this history stuff. So I just was like, OK, well, here's something they can prove. And that was probably eight years long. Then I joined the military. seemed like this, just got in military. make this short, I'll skip all the various things that he did in a step by step.

But my first boss was the assistant pastor of a Pentecostal church on the weekend. He was doing the military stuff during the week. But on the weekends, he was the assistant pastor of Priest Debbie of the Week at this black Pentecostal church. And so he was real outspoken. We argued every day. And most of time, I backed him into a corner. He defend what he was saying. And he would lean back.

and go, I love you, small Paul, you're going to make a great Christian. And power was an argument. His power was prayer. I didn't realize how powerful a man of prayer he was until I became a Christian. He asked me to pray for other people and God would do these amazing things when he prayed. So, you know, sometimes as a young Christian, I would try to mimic his actions and the way that he spoke and the way that he prayed so I could

Jason Allison (10:15)
.

Paul Pavao (10:31)
get as many answers as

he was getting. And yeah, that never worked. God does what he does. I try to be a man of faith, but I still don't think I can pray like Roger Thomas did. So basically what happened is I read the, I was reading the gospels, hoping to find some contradictions in it to argue with my boss about, and I got distracted by Jesus.

Jason Allison (10:36)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (10:42)
Hmm.

Hahaha

Jason Allison (10:58)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (10:59)
Mmm.

Paul Pavao (10:59)
I was reading through, looking for contradictions and just went, okay, people told me about sweet Jesus. Jesus isn't so sweet, but he's totally cool. so I was just mesmerized. When I realized, I thought about, what if I gathered up all people and went, I'm the son of God. It would take them about

Jason Allison (10:59)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Pavao (11:24)
before they figure out that it was a fraud or maybe less, but definitely not more. And Jesus was with these people for three years and they went to their death going, this is the son of God. it was so convincing to me. I mean, it just got down in me. So then one day I was arguing with somebody else, the Bible can't be the word of God. God would never send anybody down. And he goes,

The only thing that matters is, is Jesus the son of God? And that was the first time I really had to deal with what I was seeing. And I probably sat there for five minutes before I went, you know what? Yeah, I believe he's the son of God. And the whole world changed. I was flooded with joy. As a matter of fact, when I first met my wife, she was on visitation from the Baptist church.

Jason Allison (11:57)
I'm just a person here, feel what I'm doing. It's not just a bad thing, it's a problem. You what? Yeah.

Rob Paterson (12:11)
Mm.

Paul Pavao (12:20)
They asked for my testimony. And when I gave it to them, I was like, I don't know if you guys can relate. It was like being stoned, but my head was clear. she was, to this day, she goes, I can't believe anybody would ever care their salvation to being on drugs. So she was really bothered by that. But it was just, I didn't understand it. It was so astounding to me.

Rob Paterson (12:38)
Ha

Paul Pavao (12:48)
You know, it's like the trees are green and the lights were brighter.

Yeah, just went, God, what did you do to me? I like he said, just backpressed him, my Holy Spirit. So later when people are thinking about his holy spirit, I was like, well, I'm just come and I'm just going to go out and all that it wants for me.

Jason Allison (12:51)
was

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Pavao (13:09)
So anyway, that was my route.

Rob Paterson (13:13)
Paul, you know, it's interesting as you're sharing, I'm thinking to myself when I was 14 years old and encountered Jesus, I felt that exact same way. Like I said, amen on a prayer. And I was kind of bummed that I wasn't seeing like lights shoot down from heaven, but literally like the next morning, and I'm really not much of a morning person, like I woke up and the world was different and things were brighter. you know, like I had a very similar.

conversion experience, which is so much fun. And then as you're, as you're talking, I'm remembering I started going to church and you know, at the Sunday school time or whatever, we're singing these songs about like, I might be too young to march in the infantry or you know, fly over the enemy or shoot the artillery, but I'm in the Lord's army, you know, and, and Jason and I were in a training not too long ago where they talked about like a lot of church language.

has really kind of used military terms for a long time, but then, you know, like there are times where, you know, people tell us you can do this, but it's really not like our gifts are wiring our personality, you know, so we expect that God's going to make us into something, not us. And then one other thing that you said that with the revelation thing, you know, behold, I stand at the door and knock. I still remember I had a professor, a Bible teacher in college.

who always said, you know what, there's plenty of verses in the scripture. And he kind of poo-pooed that one, but I love that he did this. He's like, let's at least try to use scripture and context there in Revelation 3 20. Like it's addressing the church, not people far from God. So, we totally rip a scripture out of context and use it. So I'm just thinking of all these things.

in your life where you sort of, again, tried to become something, maybe you weren't, and you took these various steps and even, you know, people were using the Bible and maybe slightly questionable ways to try to like accomplish all these things. But I just love like your testimony that it's this encounter with Jesus that really changed it all in spite of all that. I mean, I don't know. I mean, as I say those things, any thoughts pop to your mind that you just like to

like address some of those practices, like the things we say to people, you know, to try to encourage them maybe in ways that really aren't helpful.

Paul Pavao (15:33)
Yeah, well, it's funny you use that wording because the one thing I would say about that is I'm so glad that there were no well-educated evangelicals around me when I was praying to ask Jesus in my heart, nothing happened, because they would have told me something did happen. Just believe, you know, it really did happen. But for whatever reason, God didn't think I was ready. You know, he didn't think I was ready at 13.

thought I was already at 21. I think we've got to not be quick to bring people to a birth before there's a birth. I've read plenty of books trying to talk about why we have such a high falling away rate within the evangelical churches. And one of them is just,

bringing people to birth prematurely. Jesus talks about the sowing of the word. you don't want to sow, well, you do want to sow the word everywhere. But it's only going to produce fruit if it winds up in good ground. If you sow it into unprepared ground, you don't get results.

Rob Paterson (16:29)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (16:49)
or the

results are shallow and short-lived, right? And I think we experienced that over the last six years, COVID exposed a lot of that in churches, right? Of people who were there just because that's what they do, not because they actually cared about Jesus. And so when it got hard, or it got to the point where, or you got maybe even just out of the habit of going to church, we saw a lot of people just never come back.

Paul Pavao (16:50)
Not what Tony did.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (17:14)
And and so that that's interesting, you know when you think about how these things get revealed and and paul, know One thing I wanted to talk about you. You have a website called christian-history.org And and we'll put links of course in the show notes and stuff so people can go look at it even more But you know, you've got a lot of resources on there That are just you know stuff you've written stuff. You've co-related you've you curated and so forth, but

You've got one book on there that I just I was excited to read through and it's called the Apostles Gospel. Maybe let's just start. What prompted you? And this is I mean, it is not a lot. It's more of a booklet, right? It's not this. You know, it's not 400 page tome on, you know, this. But and I think part of the reason. Yeah, and I think honestly, part of the reason I was telling Rob yesterday that I was excited about it is because, you know, 100 years ago when I was in undergraduate.

Paul Pavao (17:59)
That's about 40 pages.

Jason Allison (18:09)
School. I did an independent study with The professor's name was dr. Reitmeier. We called him dr. Wright more because you know, generally you would write a hundred pages over the course of a semester if you had him, you know in class Well, I did an independent study with him where I was supposed to read a thousand pages and then write a 30 to 40 page You know paper on the charismatic expression through the sermons and speeches and acts and so I was supposed to write

Paul Pavao (18:36)
Wow.

Jason Allison (18:37)
You know, hey, how was the gospel proclaimed by the, you know, people proclaiming it? Well, I know, I think I did. I actually wanted to have you on to call you out, say you stole my, no, I'm just kidding. but you know, I mean that that's why I was reading it going, this is awesome. Cause I remember it. Now, again, it was 30 plus years ago when I wrote this. So I, you know, I don't remember all the details and I know I didn't articulate it nearly as clearly as you did, you know, cause I was a, you know,

Paul Pavao (18:42)
You were supposed to write my booklet.

Rob Paterson (18:45)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (19:05)
21 year old idiot, but I just,

Paul Pavao (19:07)
Well, it's also

probably because you were in college, right? And so yeah, there's a way you write when you're in college, and there's a way you write when you're just trying to talk.

Jason Allison (19:10)
Yes.

Yeah. Well, so maybe let's let's let's start there. You know, what prompted you to write this this book about, basically the gospel, how the people in the Book of Acts proclaim the gospel?

Paul Pavao (19:33)
Well, when I first became a Christian, when I first became a Christian, they trained me in evangelism, actually at least two different times, the Baptists and the Assemblies of God. And they used that. So the first one was from evangelism explosion. And so they have this outline, know, heaven is a free gift, man is a sinner.

God wants to show mercy, but he must punish sin, then believe in Jesus. don't remember the last. So I was given an outline, then I was given a same content, but different outline from the Southern Baptist Continuing Witness program. So I was doing a.

Jason Allison (20:07)
Yeah.

Paul Pavao (20:23)
radio program and I just started reading the early church fathers and I was doing a radio program in Sacramento on a Christian radio station in the evenings one day a week half an hour and I just needed some content for the next show I was like well why don't I compare what I learned in evangelism explosion with what's an axe and I didn't actually

couldn't remember exactly the outlines. So I went and bought a bunch of tracts from a Christian bookstore, so I had a handy reference. And I outlined them. And then I went through the sermons and acts, and I outlined them. And if anything stood out, I mean, the one thing that, you know, I'm looking at the two outlines and going, there is just, you know, I practically had to read acts over again to verify this.

We would never leave out Jesus died for your sin. They left it out. It's just not in. Now, I mean, it is because in chapter eight, when Philip comes alongside the Ethiopian eunuch, the eunuch is reading Isaiah 53. mean, how could he not? The atonement. But as far as just being a part of their gospel presentation,

Jason Allison (21:22)
Yeah.

Paul Pavao (21:45)
The atonement's not there. And that's true. Peter's going along and he goes, and you guys, you came with evil hands and crucified him and did what God intended to do. And it's a perfect time to go, but that was for your sin. But he doesn't say that. He said, God raised him from the dead. Just jumped straight from he died to he rose.

And as I was reading through, pretty much figured out the emphasis here is the resurrection. The emphasis is not the atonement. It's the resurrection. And I always try to go, OK, listen, I'm not saying the atonement isn't important. It's so vastly important. But that's said to the churches. Here's what happened here.

You believe that Jesus is the Son of God. You gave your life to him. The reason that all this happened to you is because he died for your sins. But that's all written in Christian. But to the lost people that they preach to, the emphasis was Jesus was raised from the dead. And that proves that he's Messiah and Son of God to the Jews, that he's Lord to the

Greek, the Gentiles, and then to the Athenians, you know, God raised them from the dead to prove that he's going to judge everyone one day. But that was their emphasis. God raised Jesus from the dead. He's special. Believe in him.

Jason Allison (23:02)
Wow. I love that.

Rob Paterson (23:11)
Hmm.

Yeah, wow, I love that. And it's so interesting, isn't it, how we take so many things through our own experience, our own tradition, our own

cultural lens, and we try to shove the Bible into that and make it fit as opposed to, know, and we all have our lenses and presuppositions that kind of filter things, but man, I love that, just the idea that we could start with the scriptures and maybe things would be better if we did that.

Paul, you talk about the Roman's road as soteriology and not the gospel being preached to the Gentiles. Can you talk to our listeners about like, what do you mean by that and why is that an important distinction?

Paul Pavao (23:59)
Well, the thing I kind of emphasize in that booklet was we're using letters to churches to keep the laws rather than actually looking what the apostles said to the laws. Romans is soteriology. That's not a problem. But the word that Jason used when he's talking about the thing he had to write was parigma.

Jason Allison (24:01)
in that book, was reducing the level of person to the loss rather than after looking at their...

Paul Pavao (24:22)
And, you know, honestly, I'm not even sure the Apostles gospel is that gospel's, you know, the right word that I should have used there. Because the gospels in the Bible, the word gospel, it's a big word, you know, you when you read through the early church writings, they use the gospel kind of to refer to the entire faith. We, you know, we use gospel.

I to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So it's not like I really go, no, the gospel is Jesus, God raised Jesus from the dead and this proves that he's the son of God. It does get reduced to that quite often. So Matthew 16, know, Jesus says, who do you say that I am? Peter goes, you're the Christ, the son of the living God. The end of John.

Jason Allison (25:03)
So Martin said to me, know, he me the day that I answered, he said, you're the boss. I mean, they're living that. They understand.

Paul Pavao (25:13)
John says, I've written all of this so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. Mark starts his gospel with this is the gospel of Jesus, the son of God. know, it's so often I'll see something I've never saw and then I'll look up and it's all over the Bible.

Jason Allison (25:13)
so I worked all of this to get my job done. was done. Martin started to talk to him. This is about for me. And that, you know, just pull off and I'll think that I'm not a boss. And then I was hooked up and it was all over the place.

Paul Pavao (25:33)
Probably the most astonishing thing was when I started reading the early Christian writings and you know, their explanation for why

we didn't do sacrifice, you know, why don't you Christians do sacrifices like us Jews? And the Christians went, God never wanted those sacrifices. We go, you know, they're fulfilled in Jesus, but they were going, no, he never wanted them. I'm like, why are you talking about?

In Jeremiah 7, I'm sure almost nobody even knows it's there or thinks about what it says. But basically, God goes, I never talked to you guys about sacrifices in the wilderness. And when I read it, was like, what are you talking about? You're God, you know? I'm going, never talked to them about sacrifices in the wilderness. That's where you gave them Leviticus. How can you say that?

And it's a weird verse, but it makes you start seeing, know, everybody's got Micah 6, 8, memorize your, if they don't have it memorized, at least they don't have the magic. You know, what does God require of you? Like to love mercy, do justice and walk humbly with your God? But verse six and seven right before it say, what should I do for my sins? Should I?

sacrifice my firstborn? Should I sacrifice a thousand bulls? No. You know, man, what he wants from you. He wants you to love justice, do mercy, humbly with your God. And that's all over the place. Isaiah chapter one, the whole chapter basically says, get out of here. I don't want your sacrifices. I want to read. Let us reason together in your sins.

Jason Allison (27:13)
I go across the one out after they say, get out of there, don't ask me about that guy. I want you to let us be together. And you send

Paul Pavao (27:24)
that are a scarlet will become white as snow. This is when he goes, get away from me if you're sacrificed, instead come talk to me. And there's dozens of verses like that. I never saw that until I was reading what the early Christians

Jason Allison (27:24)
me better advice with some wider form. This is kind of like, get away from this, you're just gonna stay the same place. And you know, that's just, first it's like that, okay? I'll never stop that. So I was, you know, I was.

Paul Pavao (27:41)
said. Now, recently there's a book, it's super popular, called Lamb of the Free. It's way over my head. ⁓ But it's been, you

Rob Paterson (27:42)
Mm.

Jason Allison (27:42)
You have recently written a book called The Power of the Future. Well, it's since seen it.

Paul Pavao (27:52)
Reviewed on YouTube all over the place. It's a recent bug and I read about three quarters up That image got its thanks for all of it. I do have to finish it at some point But yeah, there's just things you don't see and then when you do see you go, oh, there's not three verses for

Jason Allison (27:52)
I've reviewed it YouTube. was like, I'm going it. I read about it before I got it. But it's been a while since I've read it. But yeah, there's this thing called the dark field. And then when you read it, you go, oh, it's not a book.

Paul Pavao (28:11)
this There's 40 50 60 verses for this

Jason Allison (28:17)
Yeah, well I I like this because you know in thinking about you know, I've always been bothered by you know using the Roman Road As a tool to get people to say a prayer so they punch their ticket to heaven like I that just has always felt so Insincere and even

I don't know. I just it feels so shallow, right? It's all about, you know, the it's all about the future. And I just want to know I'm going to go to heaven when I die. And yet when we read the Gospels and then we read the way the gospel is presented, as you said, I like that differentiation between when they're talking to the church and teaching them what salvation is versus proclaiming, you know, to a group of people who don't know.

Rob Paterson (28:42)
Mm.

Jason Allison (29:06)
Jesus, right? The way it's presented is more of a Jesus is who he said he was. He truly is the son of God and he was raised from the dead. Therefore, repent, change, know, believe in him, follow him.

Paul Pavao (29:22)
to

call it the difference between believing in Him versus believing in something He did. So, you know, Jesus said, I'm going to build my church on this confession, you know, and it's like we read that just and go, no, that's Peter's confession for no other reason than to refute the Catholics. We'll actually think about how it applies to us. Are we building the church on the confession that Jesus is the Christ, Son of God?

which would allow for what Romans 1.5 calls the obedience of faith? Or are we building on something he did, which doesn't Paul necessarily, I mean, the rest of the New Testament does, but if I go, Jesus died for my sins, that faith doesn't require any obedience. But Paul, when he says, you know, he is proven by the resurrection, by the Holy Spirit,

that he's the son of God, goes, and so I go preaching this to produce the obedience of faith among the Gentiles in Romans 1-5. And there's an obedience of faith when your faith is, oh my goodness, this is the son of God. He's been, I'm gonna stand before him and he's gonna judge me one day. That will prove some obedience. That will give you a reason to obey the commands of Christ.

Jason Allison (30:46)
Yeah, that'll sober you up real quick, right? When you really start to think about the implications of the fact that Jesus is Lord. And I do think there's a sense in which today, we ask people to say that and to repeat that in a way, even as a prayer, a asking Jesus into your heart type, all those things. But we forget that really what the gospel is, it's an invitation to live.

Paul Pavao (30:48)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (31:12)
Though Jesus was Lord and what does that actually look like today and how many people are coasting along? Attending church when it's convenient But thinking that they're Christians because they've said a prayer or that but they're not actually living as though Jesus were Lord and and that's the the trap that I'm afraid, you know in evangelical church today, we've created this this way of

Rob Paterson (31:35)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (31:40)
Man, if you just say this thing, punch this card, it's all good. And of course, no one would actually say that out loud, you know, but but our theology is it's kind of lead you to that conclusion. And so I like one of the ways you put it was, you know, the gospel is a call to repentance because it is a call to believe in and follow Jesus. It's like if I hear that call, my response is not just

Check. Yes, I believe that right it's I believe that and now I'm gonna live as though that is true So yeah, Maybe go ahead

Paul Pavao (32:19)
Yeah, for me, sometimes

the words get in the way of things. you know, does repentance mean? It just means change your mind. just means, you know, but what you said, well, quote me, I guess what I said, it is private. You know, it's Jesus is the Lord. So therefore I'm going to follow him and do what he said. So what's repentance? I changed my mind. I used to do what, you know, I'm not defining it by looking up a definition in a book. I'm defining it by what I'm practically

doing. And I think a lot of the Bible's words are words that are used to express about something that was practically being done so that Paul wasn't going, let's see, there's 27 gifts that that God has in mind. And these are the 27 that you can have. I think when he wrote, you know, there's a gift of administration, he was going with it's worth it. You know, there's prophets, Silas is definitely a prophet.

And you know that he had names associated with those and the names aren't gift of mercy, gift of wisdom. The names were Rufus and Silas and Timothy and you know, not good.

Jason Allison (33:31)
He's describing

those people. Right. And that becomes a list that we call the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Yeah.

Paul Pavao (33:35)
Right. ⁓

There's so many things that get solved if we lived in what's. So I went to a Baptist church for a while and my theology is not at all Baptist. But you know, when we when the issue of internal security would come up for me. You know, we're going we're talking about the same people. So I'm sitting with assistant pastor, pastor and myself.

and talking about the people who are, you know, they're either just showing up on Sunday morning or they've completely fallen away. They're not even going to church anymore. And, know, you're going to say you, you're going to say this guy was never saved. I'm going to say I'm not going to say he lost his salvation. I'm going to say anything. I'm going to go.

Well, we have something that we're supposed to do about with this. The end of James says, if you see a brother who's erred from the path, you should go restore him so that you can cover a multitude of sins and save a soul from death. So that's really kind of a means of evangelism, too. Because I think the problem we run into with lose your salvation versus eternal security is there's something we don't understand. You were talking about salvation, a free ticket to heaven.

But if you read the parts of the Bible that say that we're saved by faith apart from words, they're not talking about. If you go read Ephesians chapter two, verses one through 10, and verses one through three, we're dead in our sins, we're walking according to the spirit that is in the sons of disobedience. In verse 10, we're created in Christ Jesus to do good works, we're God's workmanship.

We went from being dead in our sins and trespasses to God's workmanship. That is truly a great salvation, but it's not in a promise of heaven. The promise of heaven is not in Ephesians 2, 1 through 10. You are being equipped to live the life that will bring you into heaven. And that's kind of established in chapter five. Just three chapters later, Paul goes, if you're

sexually immoral, unclean, or greedy, you know, don't be deceived. You're not going to inherit the kingdom of heaven because it's because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. So don't be partakers with them. So here you've been made to be God's workmanship created to do good works. If you ignore all that and walk away, or as Hebrews says it, if you neglect

to great a salvation, then he goes, you're not going to have any inheritance in the kingdom of God. And to me, I'm going, so if that person was really safe and they fell away, does that mean they're no longer equipped to do good works? Does that mean that they're no longer God's workmanship? I don't think so. I think they can repent and do good and not be condemned with the sons of

Jason Allison (36:39)
But that something was there and they fell away. Does that mean they're no longer just the good ones? that mean they're no longer that good? No, think they can look at us. They were. Not the gender, but then the

Paul Pavao (36:57)
disobedience because they will be if they're

Jason Allison (36:57)
disobedience because they were there.

Paul Pavao (37:01)
living in sexual immorality, living in uncleanness, living in, you know, think we miss the fact that Romans 2, 5 through 8, people like to go, that's, there's no way that's true. Paul has to be speaking hypothetically. But it says that God will reward eternal life to those who patiently continue to do good.

Not to those who live perfectly, not to those who never stumbled, not to those who never had to repent, to those who patiently continue to do good. And it's basically repeated at the end of Galatians. He says, God's not mocked. Don't be deceived. He who sows to the flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. Those who sow to the spirit will from the spirit reap everlasting life.

Jason Allison (37:36)
you you

Paul Pavao (37:54)
Therefore, don't grow weary in doing good. Or induce these in your reek. People, they

always go, well, where's the line? If being immoral, unclean, or where's the line? When am I too immoral? And I'm going, that is the wrong question. One, I'm not. What is going to judge? That's the very point.

Rob Paterson (38:12)
Huh.

Paul Pavao (38:20)
You know, Peter goes, if you address as father the one who impartially judges according to each man's work, then conduct yourself throughout the time of your sojourning here in fear. And that's that shouldn't be crippling. We love God and he's a merciful God. He is just looking for us guys. Colossians has my favorite. It goes. He's going to present.

Jason Allison (38:46)
you going take

Paul Pavao (38:47)
you before the throne blameless if you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not moved away from the faith of the gospel. Most of the people that I'm talking with when they're going eternal

Jason Allison (38:48)
you before the clock, playing that, and there, you see on the page, round it and you tell it, it's not really the right place to be honest. Most of the people that are talking about it are gone.

Paul Pavao (39:03)
security, I'm going no well you know I don't believe eternal security because there's three times that Paul says don't be deceived and it sounds like he's saying don't be deceived into believing eternal security so I

I can't go there, but I also can't go to the, you know, you can always repent. You can always go forward. God is not looking for anything more from you than you continue in the faith grounded and settled. Let him do his work and he'll get you there. Don't quit.

Rob Paterson (39:18)
You

Jason Allison (39:34)
Yeah. And I think part of that too is,

Rob Paterson (39:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (39:37)
yeah, I think part of that is, you know, when the objective is simply to go to heaven,

I think again, that is a very incomplete answer to what salvation is. And that's why they have to really lean into eternal security or not. if they're asked, I think they're asking the wrong questions because their objective is wrong. If your objective is simply how do we get people to say the things that will get them into heaven? Then, you know, we got to have a bunch of equations, you know, and make that work.

Paul Pavao (39:48)
Right.

Rob Paterson (40:07)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (40:08)
But when our objective is to say, hey, we want to help people follow Jesus, commit their life to following Jesus, because ultimately we think God is going to come back and make all things new. And we want them to be ready to embody that kind of reality. That's just a different way really of doing that. Rob, I wanted to ask you a question in the midst of this, because you're preaching almost every week at your church.

As you're thinking through this, and you and I have had conversations similar to this in the past, but how does this impact the way you would now present a gospel message on a Sunday? mean, every message I know is good, but I'm saying if you are getting to the point where you just sense the Spirit saying, there are people here who want to respond to an invitation to follow Jesus. ⁓

Rob Paterson (40:57)
Mm.

Jason Allison (40:58)
How I just in with Paul here because you know, he's right. I'm just curious as a practitioner ⁓ How is that impacting you?

Rob Paterson (41:04)
Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Like put the weight of the world on my shoulders right now. Huh? Well, here's what I would say. And I love, you know, just as I listen, I'm listening to Paul talk and Jason, even in what you just said, one of the things that I really, really appreciate is none of us are letting anybody off the hook, right? For the life and for obedience and all those things. But I think sometimes in the church, again, we like someone's not living well. Someone, you know, is, is

Jason Allison (41:08)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rob Paterson (41:31)
You know, there's obvious sin, you know, they're struggling. And instead of us being helpful and encouraging and loving and like us living our lives too, we find these convenient kind of theological ways to sort of shake our finger and, you know, point out that we believe now they're on the outside looking in. And in everything you guys said, it sounded again, like the thing is still the thing.

We're not letting you off the hook, but man, there was hope, there was generosity, there was redemption. And, you know, mean, heck, it's hope, if I'm hopeless, why would I continue? And so for me, I'm always sort of wrestling with that tension of like, I need to help them to see that like Jesus is everything. And at the same time, like if, if we are trying to live life with Jesus as Lord,

then there are things that we just are going to do, not because they're going to get us everything, but because man, if this guy really did that for me, if he really loves me that much, that is going to result in kind of this overflow of living as well. so, you know, the gospel isn't just, and Jason, also love a buddy once told me like the Jewish understanding of prayer is that like all of life is prayer.

And for me as a pastor, it's always felt really weird when I'm talking to someone and they're like, man, like I've really messed my life up. I don't want to live that way anymore. I want to change. And I know Jesus is the only way. Like they literally have articulated, like I I am repenting that is in my past and I'm clinging to Jesus as the only hope forward. And I'm like, you know, like we were taught.

Like, okay, so now let's, let's bow our heads and close our eyes and say that as a prayer. So then he'll hear it and it'll count. It's like, they just did that. They really just did that, you know? And so again, I think that's where our own like history and tradition and training and culture have so like marred what the gospel actually is that we've got to undo a lot of those things for our people before they spread that nonsense in those broken ways.

Jason Allison (43:42)
Yeah.

Paul Pavao (43:43)
very much as we're working together towards a goal. So Hebrews 3.13, exhort one another day by day while it's called today, let any of you be hardened by the streak from us of sin. To me, that's a picture of, okay, we're at war with the world, the flesh, the devil, we're at war with, you we're overcoming the flesh together. It's like,

narcotics anonymous and alcoholics anonymous, they know that. You know, you go there and they're going to go, yeah, you can't do this by yourself. And not only can you do you need the help of a higher power, which you need the help of each other, you need a sponsor, you need someone you can confess, all that stuff's in the Bible. that then, you know, even with Sunday services, it's like, it's not just your job to

get people to the end. Even when it's talking about assembling yourselves together, it's just consider one another to evoke to love and good works. We're there. There's so many, you know, it's like, could the pastor say, come on, he's the pastor, he's the one exhorting us and telling us everything. So it's impossible. And the result is that nobody really exhorts the leaders.

You know, and I definitely run into that. I complain about it. go, listen, I'm just like you. I'm fighting the war against sin. I want to overcome it. I want to clear before the storm of God and have God go, well done, thou good and faithful servant. And it says right there in 1 Corinthians that I can't do it without you. So my Bible study's not enough. You guys have to talk to me. You guys have to know what's going on in my life.

see these famous people, you know, having these scandals or someone be committing adultery for eight years and nobody said anything to them. Why was it able to go on for eight years without anything happening? That's not just his fault. That's the fault of our whole system. That's the fault of the people that were around him. And yeah, we have to be responsible for one.

Rob Paterson (45:45)
Yeah.

Yeah. Amen.

Jason Allison (46:01)
I love that. Well, we are out of time today and I just I feel like we're just scratching the surface of some of this this conversation. And yes, I do know soteriology has been a very big subject throughout the history of the church. And there has been volumes and volumes written around it about it. But I do think what you're saying in a very simple way is, hey, the gospel is inviting people

Rob Paterson (46:07)
You

Jason Allison (46:25)
to follow Jesus. And man, if you start there, the rest really begins to, it changes the trajectory at that point, right? It's not about sin management. It's not about, you know, just making sure that you've said the right things, done the right little dance, held your tongue in the right way when you said the prayer so that God says, okay, you're in. It's about actually conforming my life to match that of Jesus.

And that's what salvation is. And I just, love that. I would recommend, you know, all of our listeners go to christian-history.org, check more of the stuff out. there's, other resources that I'll put in the, in the show notes in case people want to, you know, take a little deeper dive. Paul, thank you for your time, for putting all the effort that you have into writing this stuff and creating some of these things. I'm, looking forward to seeing more and we'll have to talk again in the future, man.

Paul Pavao (47:08)
Yeah.

Okay, yeah, good to meet you, Jason. This was great, it was fun.

Jason Allison (47:21)
Yeah.

All right. Well, to our listeners, have a wonderful week and we will talk to you soon.