Are You a Friend of Dorothy? Exploring History and Connection with Kyle Lukoff and Levi Hastings

How did a humorous military anecdote about a mysterious Dorothy evolve into an enlightening nonfiction picture book about LGBTQIA history? Author Kyle Lukhoff and illustrator Levi Hastings share the creative journey behind Are You a Friend of Dorothy? Kyle and Levi discuss the challenges and joys of representing complex identities in children's literature, emphasizing the importance of these narratives in today's world.

In this episode, we also explore the diverse paths that led Kyle and Levi to champion LGBTQIA representation through their art. From Kyle's transition from librarian to full-time writer (Kyle is a Newbery Honor winner, National Book Award finalist, and Stonewall Award winner!!!), fueled by a passion for connecting with young readers, to Levi's shift from graphic design to illustrating children's books, their stories are as captivating as the tales they create. Discover their approach to portraying historical figures like Gavin Grimm and Baron von Steuben, and learn about their recent works, including a Jewish fantasy adventure and a book about pride. Stay tuned as they share their future plans and invite you to follow their artistic endeavors as they continue to enrich the literary landscape.

(0:00:03) - Are You a Friend of Dorothy? We explore the origins of the phrase "Are You a Friend of Dorothy?" and its significance in the LGBTQIA community. Kyle and Levi share insights into their creative process and the importance of historical narratives in understanding current struggles.

(0:15:36) - Adventures in Learning with Kyle and Levi Learn more about Kyle and Levi's journeys in writing and illustration, highlighting their transitions to full-time careers in children's literature. 

(0:26:42) - Recent Works and Future Plans 

Pre-order Are You a Friend of Dorothy? (out 4/29/25)

Follow Kyle Lukhoff on Instagram and Facebook

Follow Levi Hastings on Instagram and Facebook

Don't miss this engaging episode as we uncover the artistry and advocacy behind Are You a Friend of Dorothy? Preorder your copy today and share it with someone who needs to hear its important message. Your support helps bring diverse stories to life and fosters understanding across communities.

Transcript

[00:01] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Wonder Curiosity Connection. Where will your adventures take you? I'm Dr. Diane, and thank you for joining me on today's episode of Adventures in Learning. So welcome to the Adventures in Learning podcast. I have a complete treat for you all today. Are you a friend of Dorothy? You are going to get a sneak peek at a brand new nonfiction picture book that I think is one of the most extraordinary things to come out this spring. I'm so excited to share it with you. And not only that, we have the author and the illustrator right here in the same zoom room. I've got Kyle Lukoff and Levi Hastings. And I'm so excited to talk to them to get the story behind this book, to share it with you, and to learn a little about their adventures and learning. So welcome. Hi, Kyle. Hi, Levi. Welcome for join. Thank you for joining us today.

[01:02] Kyle Lukoff: Thanks for having us.

[01:04] Levi Hastings: Thanks for having us. It's very nice to be here.

[01:06] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: So are you A Friend of Dorothy is coming out this week. Can you tell us a little bit about this book and what prompted you to write it? Because it's unique among nonfiction picture books, you're not profiling a specific person or even a moment. You're profiling a phrase and what that phrase meant to so many people. So can you give us a little background?

[01:28] Kyle Lukoff: Sure. So it initially started as a profile of a specific moment. I got the idea when I was in the car with my husband and two of his friends and we were driving to the beach and one of them said, hey, did you all ever hear about the time that the military heard some sailors call themselves friends of Dorothy and thought that there was a real woman named Dorothy that they went to look for? And I said, yes, I have heard about this before. And I said, we were chatting about it and the phrase the hunt. Oops, I just dropped a copy. That's okay. The phrase the hunt for Dorothy came up and I said, that would be a great title for a picture book. Someone should write a picture book about this. Wait a second. I should write a picture book about this? And it was originally just about that moment. And then my editor, when we sold it to Celia at Simon and Schuster, she encouraged me to expand it beyond just that moment into the bigger ideas behind that phrase and what I really wanted to communicate to readers beyond just that one funny story.

[02:30] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And do you want to share a little bit about what you're hoping readers will take from Are you a friend of Dorothy?

[02:38] Kyle Lukoff: I've stopped hoping that readers take anything specific a long time ago because at this point I know that Whatever someone takes from it says as much about what they bring to it as about what I put into it. I mostly just hope at this point, I mostly just hope that people like my books. And also if they don't, that's okay.

[02:55] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Sounds fair. How about you, Levi? When did you come into. Are you a friend of Dorothy?

[03:00] Levi Hastings: So I was approached via my editor, the art director, so Laurent Lane at Simon Schuster, who I'd worked with previously. And I, you know, was, you know, essentially I was approached as a. Somebody who. I've worked on some books writing queer history in the past. And it's a subject that I've been very interested in personally for a long time. And so it seemed like a perfect fit, particularly around you know, this idea of sort of the lavender scare and sort of the. The queer coding that people have used for generations as a way of navigating a hostile world. And, you know, at the time, you know, I was approached probably, I think it was maybe 20, 22, you know, so. So this, you know, at the time, this book felt more like, oh, sort of a history, unfortunately, that sort of became involved by the day. So I, you know, I preached it as a fascinating piece of history that I think needed to be illuminated. And I really loved Kyle's approach, you know, using the phrase as the sort of, you know, and sort of this idea of a. Of a Dorothy character, sort of a spy master who's sort of, you know, this. This target of investigation. I just thought it was such a clever approach to this whole idea. And I saw a lot of opportunities for some interesting visual narratives to be kind of, you know, telling a story in a visual way and sort of a very funny and humorous, you know, a way sort of the. It's a very serious subject. And the way that, you know, at the time, these were very serious issues and people. People's, you know, very real lives were at stake. And. But I think Kyle's approach of using sort of. Yeah, I just, like, It's a really fun. There's a very light touch to it, and it's a very approachable narrative. And so I just think that's a very interesting balance of Mother's attention there, of how do you tell these rather serious stories in a way that's very approachable to children? And I think Kyle did that beautifully. And so I wanted to sort of. There was a challenge there that I wanted to accept.

[05:26] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: I really loved the way that the art and the words not only compliment each other, but in many ways extend the story. It gives you other things that you are considering as you are reading it. And, Kyle, you said something just a minute ago that resonated. I was thinking about just how relevant this story is today. You know, when you wrote it in 2021, is that about the time that you were writing it? It was more of a celebratory time, a time of hope, thinking that we were finally past some of the topics that were in the book. And we're clearly in a time where the dangers to the LGBTQIA community are much greater probably than they've been at any time since your story took place. What kind of went into your thought process as you were figuring out? How do you make this relevant to kids?

[06:22] Kyle Lukoff: Yeah, I mean, I will say that in 2021, I was not necessarily sharing that feeling of optimism and hope. That may have something to do with my personality. That may have something to do with the fact that I was a history major. And I'm fairly familiar with cycles of progression and backlash. And I kind of knew not just what was coming, but what was already happening in terms of a growing anti trans panic, specifically focusing on my books and also the existence of trans youth. So I knew that there was a chance that this book would come out into a world that made it feel even more relevant. I did not know quite how right I was going to be, though. Um, something that has been really fascinating to watch, especially over these last few weeks, is as, like, the concept of, like, diversity, equity, and inclusion is being attacked on the federal level. How people are now trying to get around it by saying what they mean, using words that will not get them in trouble, which is extremely what this book is about. And then another interesting thing that's become more and more common over the last few years in terms of Internet algorithm censorship is how people are coming up with ways of getting their message across online without coming afoul of censors. Like the term, like, unalive instead of suicide, or using, like, a watermelon emoji instead of talking about Palestine. And I could not have predicted how relevant this book would feel. And when I wrote it, I wasn't sure if it was going to be interesting to kids or really anyone outside of myself, really. At this point in my career, I have enough books out that I can just kind of do what I feel like, and if something doesn't sell, then I just move on to the next project. I wanted to write this book because it was something that I was interested in and curious about, and I figured if it got published, then I could find out if other people were interested in and curious about it too. And I don't know for sure that that will happen, but I am excited to find out.

[08:25] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Great. Levi, do you want to add anything to that?

[08:29] Levi Hastings: Yeah, I mean, I. I would say it's a little disheartening how that is a more relevant topic. I mean, on the. On the sense. In the sense that, like, you know, these. These issues, turns out are evergreen in a way that I wish they were not. Yeah, I. I think I'm. I'm also curious to, you know, see kind of how this book is received today as. Rather than how it would be received three years ago. But I think, you know, the issue of coding is a very interesting one. You know, clear coding and, you know, political coding in the way that Carl just mentioned, we've always had to sort of navigate this in different ways, and we're kind of learning new ways to navigate. And, you know, it's frustrating, obviously, but I, you know, there's. There's something. I don't know, it speaks to sort of the resilience of these communities in the way that we always find ways to survive and thrive against these, you know, rather hostile forces. So, yeah, I'm. I obviously, I hope it finds it. I hope it finds an audience. And, yeah, I'm very curious to see what kind of response it gets.

[09:53] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Would you all like to share a couple of pages or a section from the book with the audience?

[10:01] Kyle Lukoff: Well, my copy fell to the floor, so I gotta pick it up. I don't know. Let's see if there's anything that I feel like reading aloud. Levi, if you have something that you know of, you can go first.

[10:16] Levi Hastings: Okay. Well, only because it's. It feels very relevant to our current moment. The sort of. In the opening pages where it talks.

[10:29] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: About take yourself off of Blur. There we go.

[10:33] Levi Hastings: Yeah, I know. I need to. There you go. So in the first. In the first couple of programs, you know, you see people who always know how to find each other. And when it isn't safe to be out as yourself, you can always create ways to learn who your friends might be. And I had a lot of fun. You know, I don't. Creating this sort of like big family scene early on, you know, sort of chosen family scene of, you know, somebody being introduced to a large group of people sitting around the table, you know, chatting, gossiping, and just kind of being together after kind of being, you know, because. Well, sorry, on the previous page, there sort of this, like, people kind of using the code words and, you know, Kind of tentatively asking, like, are you referring to Dorothy as a way of sort of. You know, it's. Yeah, it's a way of kind of finding each other in a way that is. It's sort of safe anyway, so that was something that I wanted to. I really wanted to include sort of these. These images of found family.

[11:47] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Agreed. And that sense of chosen family comes out very clearly in there. And I think, you know, picture books aren't just for children. I think they're for everybody. And I could 100% say, see this book going into the hands of teenagers, of young adults, of folks who are trying to figure out who they are and where they belong in the community. So I hope that it finds a really wide audience, and that notion of your found family is an important one. I think in this book, I was.

[12:21] Kyle Lukoff: Actually going to share the end of the book because I always know that I'm writing in the present, but the book will happen in the future. And I also. I also try to be as honest as possible in my books about what might be true now and also what might be true for the person who's reading it, which could be anyone, anytime, anywhere. And I didn't want to say things were bad then, but they're better now. Don't worry. I wanted to say things were hard then in different ways, and they're hard today in different ways. And also here are some things that are still true. So I just want to read the last couple sentences. Um. LGBTQ people don't have to invent a secret language to talk about ourselves, but we still find ways of keeping each other safe. We still know how to find our community, and learning about the ways we survived in the past could help people in the future. There never was a Dorothy, but there will always be her friends.

[13:15] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Love that.

[13:16] Kyle Lukoff: Yeah.

[13:17] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And that's just a beautiful way to end it. And the back matter is extensive and helpful as well. You know, clearly you put some. A lot of thought into what you included.

[13:29] Kyle Lukoff: Yeah. The back matter is also something that I'm really proud of. One thing that's incredible, one very specific challenge I think, that picture book authors have, when writing about these topics, is literally the words to use, because nobody wants to read a picture book that has, like, a lengthy definition of what LGBTQIA means. And also, as adults, we know that the word gay or queer can be shorthand, but that understanding isn't necessarily common among every audience that you're going to be reading this book for. And so in the back matter, I actually wrote like I wrote A letter saying, you might have noticed that this book sometimes uses the words gay and lesbian and sometimes uses the acronym lgbtq. Sometimes it uses the word queer. You might have wondered what these words mean, what the differences are between them, and why people might use one instead of the other. Because I couldn't put that in the text itself. But I also didn't want that just to go unremarked. I'm really glad that I got the opportunity to write that bit because it's a really tricky thing when writing queer books for kids, especially because we all don't agree amongst ourselves with those words.

[14:34] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: And you're trying to write a book that you don't know where the audience is. It could be a library in Idaho. It could be a classroom in Tallahassee, Florida. Probably not. But, you know, it could be like.

[14:46] Kyle Lukoff: A family with two moms and three dads who all live in the same house in Northampton. Like that.

[14:50] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Exactly. And so you want it to be able to be relevant across the board for everybody. I'd love to get to know you all just a little bit better for our listeners. And so I was wondering if you wouldn't mind taking a moment to just sort of share your adventures and learning with them. How did you get to where you are today? A little bit of background about how. How you got into writing or how you got into art, that kind of stuff.

[15:17] Kyle Lukoff: Sure. So I. I started. I mean, you know, I started my life as a baby, and then I got older. But I think really the first place that you can set my beginning is when I got hired at Barnes and Noble when I was 16. So I worked at a bookstore for a decade, and I didn't know what I wanted to do as a grownup. And then I went to library school, and then I was a librarian for another eight years. So for 18 years, my whole life was just helping people for almost like 20 years, because two of those years was library school. My entire life was helping people find books that they liked. And then in 2020, I quit my job to focus on writing full time because at that point, I had enough books out that could help me get school visits and also some advances coming in from other books that it became financially possible for me to not have a day job. But I think that for me, my writing story really began with at least the kind of writing that I do now. It began working at an elementary school, talking to kids every day about what they liked and didn't like, and also reading dozens of picture books to different audiences every day of the week.

[16:25] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Excellent. How about you, Levi?

[16:28] Levi Hastings: So my background is in illustration, graphic design. I've worked professionally as a graphic designer for, you know, 20 years. And so I gradually was working as a freelance illustrator through much of that. And then I. I sort of came to. I came to picture books and publishing by way of comics. So I worked. I worked in sort of, you know, indie comics, you know, for all throughout my career. And I was working with. There was a publication called the Nib, which is a nonfiction comics publication that was online exclusively for many years. It was recently closed two years ago. But I was publishing these sort of. Sort of short form nonfiction comics that were, you know, around gay, queer history. And. And then I started getting picture book, you know, contracts. So I did a few, you know, I basically sort of been doing that that road. Not. I wasn't specifically looking to do for those picture books, but they sort of found me. And so I now.

[17:51] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Excellent. And you've each done books that touch on history, particularly within the LGBTQIA community. In terms of some of the leaders, are there people that you've written about that you love, or are there people that you kind of go, I really think there needs to be a book about them that I want to write.

[18:12] Kyle Lukoff: I got to write the picture book biography of Gavin Grimm. It's called if youf're a Kid Like Gavin. And it came out in 2021, I think. And I'm still. You know, that book didn't do great on its release, but I'm still very proud of it. I think it's an important story told very well. And, you know, I don't. I have a, like, fairly, maybe semi controversial belief, which is that not everything needs to be made for children. I think that it is okay for kids to learn about some things when they are older. That being said, I have been playing around with the idea of writing a children's book about this man named Lou Sullivan, who was known for being the first person that we know of to really create international community of trans men. He also did a lot of work to advance the rights of trans men to be not just like traditionally masculine and heterosexual. He was really cool. But also, I don't know if I want to tell children about him. I think that maybe kids can wait a little while to learn about him. I'm not sure. I'm still thinking about it.

[19:20] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Sounds like it's an interesting process, and I can't wait to see where you end up with that. How about you, Levi?

[19:29] Levi Hastings: So, yeah, I've been some of my Previous work. I just two years ago published a graphic novel about Baron von Steuben, who was a general in the American Revolutionary War and was flamboyantly gay according to our current, you know, standards. And, you know, and that was a very interesting subject to tackle in that we were dealing with, you know, me and the writer were, you know, kind of co producing the book at the same time and, you know, wrestling with the idea of, like, you know, how. What does it mean to define queerness for somebody who is 200 years dead? You know, like, you know, how do we redefine these categories? And do we. How do we. How do we reclaim somebody from history? And what does that mean when we also have to deal with, you know, they're like a problematic nature. Right. The ways in which that they were. The ways that we now consider these people to be very complicated. And, you know, how do we reckon at that? And, you know, the pilot's point, like, some of these subjects are not necessarily. You can't really put into a children's picture book in a very tidy way. Right. These are subjects that are maybe a little bit more, you know, for an older audience. Right. So this book was definitely much for more of our younger teen audience. Teen to a bold audience. But, yeah, I think there's a lot of. There's certainly a lot of great figures that I think deserve to be, you know, either reclaimed or reckoned with in a way that is a little more nuanced than you can necessarily put in the children's workshop work.

[21:10] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Well, and I think that idea of nuanced is important because, you know, our identities are made up of so many things, and our queerness is part of that. Certainly our. Our cultural background is part of that, where we grew up, all of those things. And we're complex, complicated individuals. And it sounds to me, as you guys are working on your writing and you're illustrating that you're really diving into sort of the nuances that make us human. And that seems like good storytelling to me.

[21:46] Levi Hastings: Yeah, I think the problem is becoming that or it has been. Right. Like, it's difficult to tell or sell a nuanced story in a marketplace and in a culture that really sort of want some more, a less nuanced, like, nuance doesn't really sell in a way that, like, a very sort of didactic or, like, very specific kind of, you know. You know, particularly with, like, you know, I don't know, Kylie probably had this issue too. Like, sometimes you're. It's sort of like they want you Want like a hero, particularly when you're telling queer stories. It's like you either need somebody who's like up on a pedestal as like, oh, this is our heroic, like, you know, idle. And it's much harder to tell somebody who's like, hey, this is a complicated person who did a lot for our community, but like, may have had some, you know, things, you know, so it's, it's, it's hard to kind of tell that story in a sort of 36 page.

[22:46] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Sure. What currently brings you all hope? Or if not hope, at least some creative joy.

[22:59] Kyle Lukoff: So I first started writing with the aim of publication because I felt bored and lonely a lot and I didn't really know what else to do with my time. Writing has always been a way that I stave off my own existential dread. Not necessarily even because I'm like looking forward to the future, but just because the act itself keeps me focused on something other than what I'm currently anxious about, um, which I feel really lucky about. I know a lot of my fellow creatives are really struggling to write during these times, but for me, writing is the thing that helps me get out of bed in the morning. Um, so I think that any like hope that I have goes into my books because that's where it will do the most good.

[23:45] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Makes sense.

[23:48] Levi Hastings: Yeah. I'm focusing a lot on personal work at the moment and you know, kind of, yeah, trying to kind of figure out a new or, you know, different, a different path forward. I feel like some of the same, you know, like every, every creative I know is also struggling and sort of the traditional revenue streams are drying up and I think we're all also trying to kind of figure out what do we, you know, what does it mean to create in this environment. And I'm, I'm finding a lot of work just kind of with my peer, my peer group and we're kind of, you know, we're all sort of struggling together. But you know, I do, I do a lot of conventions or I, I have done a lot of conventions. I'm trying to do more this year. Getting into a, like more of a face to face physical, in physical reality and having the, of immediate feedback from an audience and people who like see your work or respond to your work for me has been really rewarding. After many years of sort of doing everything online and being so virtual. I think putting myself out there in a physical way and like being at a table and meeting people in real life has been much more gratifying than just trying to sort of get those responses from the Internet, which are lovely, but like, it sort of, it feeds. It feeds your soul in a different way, you know?

[25:23] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Absolutely. Are you a Friend of Dorothy? Is out this week. You all need to pre order it. Support Kyle and Levi and the beautiful work that they've put forth into the world. Share this book. I guarantee there's somebody in your life who needs to see and read this book and know that they aren't alone. And it's just such a fabulous nonfiction picture book. You really need to go out and get it. One last question for you all before we close the podcast. Are there any works that are coming out for you this year besides are you a friend of Dorothy or down the pipeline that you would like to let people know about?

[26:03] Kyle Lukoff: Dorothy is the third book that I had come out this year, and it's only April, so that's a. I don't have anything else.

[26:09] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: All right, well, tell us what the other two were that have come out this year.

[26:12] Kyle Lukoff: Oh, sure. So in February, my third novel came out. It's a Jewish fantasy adventure called A World Worth Saving. And then in March, I got to write my little golden book about pride.

[26:23] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Oh, wow. Well, definitely go look for those as well. How about you, Levi?

[26:29] Levi Hastings: Dorothy is my only book currently coming out. I don't have any others in the pipeline at this point, but yeah, I'm pitching. I have some proposals out there, so hoping one of those lands somewhere. Good. Otherwise I'm yeah, really focusing on professional work and making more inwards.

[26:49] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Excellent. And I will share both of your social media links in the show notes so that people can follow you. I strongly recommend that you do. And thank you so much for sharing this beautiful book with us.

[27:02] Kyle Lukoff: Thank you, Diane.

[27:03] Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor: Appreciate it. You've been listening to the Adventures in Learning podcast with your host, Dr. Diane. If you like what you're hearing, please subscribe, download and let us know what you think. And please tell a friend. If you want the full show notes and the pictures, Please go to drdianadventures.com we look forward to you joining us on our next adventure.