Innovative Strategies for Engaging Young Learners Through Empathy and Play with Rebecca Freedman

How can the simple act of play revolutionize early childhood education and reignite a passion for teaching?

Join us on a transformative journey as Rebecca List Freedman, co-founder of FirstDay Learning, reveals the incredible potential of play in early childhood education. Discover how integrating play into classrooms not only addresses challenging behaviors but also enhances teacher well-being. 

Rebecca shares innovative strategies for creating joyful learning environments that build pro-social skills and relational trust. Learn how empathy, negotiation, and conflict resolution can be effortlessly woven into daily activities, and how storytelling and real-life scenarios can develop empathy and perspective-taking. This episode is packed with fresh perspectives and practical solutions to foster creativity, empathy, and enthusiasm in education.

Key Takeaways: 

• Play is a powerful tool for tackling challenging behaviors and enhancing teacher well-being.
• Empathy, negotiation, and conflict resolution can be integrated into classroom activities through purposeful play.
• Storytelling and real-life scenarios are essential for developing empathy and perspective-taking in children.
• Building a supportive teaching community is crucial for teacher wellness and rekindling a passion for teaching.

Chapters: 

01:03: Promoting Playful Learning in Early Childhood 

10:29: Play as a Tool for Building Empathy and Conflict Resolution Skills

22:33: Storytelling to Foster Creativity and Self-Exploration 

26:30: Rekindling Teacher Joy in Early Childhood 

Links: 

• FirstDay Learning website
• Connect with Rebecca Freedman on LinkedIn
• Follow FirstDay Learning on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook 

Call to Action: 

Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast for more inspiring conversations and share this episode with fellow educators who might benefit from these innovative strategies. Let's work together to create joyful and effective learning environments!

Transcript

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00:02 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So, for those of you who have been following the Adventures in Learning podcast for a while, you know that my passion is learning through play, and early childhood is a huge portion of that. I met Rebecca Freedman at a early childhood conference this spring and I have to tell you I was blown away by the workshop she presented and the way that they use play to work with kids who are experiencing challenging behaviors. She's with First Day Learning and you are in for such a treat, Rebecca. Welcome to the show. 

00:33 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me, Diane. 

00:37 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So before we start because I really want to launch into all of the stuff with play and challenging behaviors and helping teachers, but before we do that, let's introduce you, tell us a little bit about who Rebecca Freedman is and what First Day Learning is. 

00:52 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Sure, so my name is Rebecca Freedman. I live in South Florida. First Day Learning is kind of a culmination of everything I've done in this field. So I've been lucky enough to have multiple different jobs, worked with multiple different agencies in early childhood from being a teacher to being a director, to working with Head Starts and working with assessment tools but really started first day learning on a passion to create happy and confident teachers. We know that happy classrooms start with happy teachers and that is my passion. My background is applied behavioral analysis, so helping teachers understand behaviors, look at behaviors in different ways, bring joy back into their classrooms is is what I'm on a mission to do, so thank you for having me. 

01:37 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and that's the main reason, I was like that whole idea of bringing joy and sparking that back into the classroom. I was like I need Rebecca on the show because that's my mission as well. So let's talk a little bit about how we do that. What do you think are some of the things that are missing today in the early childhood, early elementary classroom that maybe you need to help spark some joy back into? 

02:00 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yeah, well, it's funny when you asked me how did this come about. 

02:03
I had the opportunity to teach early childhood in the kingdom of Tonga, which is in the South Pacific, on a very rural island, and so being out there for two and a half years on an island, teaching in a place where there was no electricity, no running water, trying to, there was one. 

02:22
We had two schools across the island and we would take the resources from one, put them in a wheelbarrow from my husband's school where he was taking secondary to the elementary school, so that everyone could share, like the copier and the paper and all these, so placed with very limited resources, but so much joy. So I think about that a lot when I go and work with teachers here in the States, like what was that that they brought into the classrooms? And a lot of it was an emphasis on both taking care of themselves and taking care of the community around them. So a lot of emphasis on eating well and getting enough sleep and rest and social interaction and a lot of things that I sometimes feel like when we're in work, work, work mode here we put that on the back burner. So I really think to a lot of those lessons that I learned in Tonga and how people interacted with each other and teamed up in this like kind of community that came together around education. 

03:20 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So how do we transfer that feeling of joy and that sense of community into a classroom where teachers are feeling under-resourced and burned out? 

03:31 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yeah, good question and I think it's a lot on what you concentrate on. So at First Day Learning, we're really trying to think about addressing first the educator, like their well-being. How do we help them feel good and confident about walking into a classroom? How do we help them feel prepared? They are going to have children that have a lot of challenges, so what are simple, actionable strategies that you can give them that are not just read this book and do this? A lot of it is based around play. We know that children that have these challenging behaviors are harder to connect with. So how do you bring back relational play in the classroom? How do you bring story and narrative back in? So we really concentrate on how to help teachers feel good, how to make sure that they are working as a community and as a team and have good communication styles with each other. And then how do they have? How are we preparing them to face the challenges that they're going to face in a classroom? 

04:28 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So you mentioned play. Let's do a little play primer for people in terms of why play is important in the early childhood realm and frankly it's important all the way up through adults but how you can use play as a way to address challenging behaviors in the classroom. 

04:43 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Sure, well, we I mean we know in early childhood. Everyone talks about it, we know children learn best through play. But when you walk into a lot of classrooms, what I see is teachers sitting back being like I hope they're learning, I hope you know they're playing. And and really, if we want them to learn the skills that help prevent challenging behavior, that build pro-social skills, we have to be their play partner and we have to understand the different types of play we can engage in and understand the function of their behavior and then match our response to it. So a lot of times what we see is children, you know, wanting a teacher's behavior. There's 13 three-year-olds in a room and they're starting to act up and they want to be the one that's named, as called out. So teachers tend to give attention to the children with these challenging behaviors. So we try to help them flip that. 

05:31
And when the child first comes in, how can you spend some relational play with children? 

05:33
The other type of play and I was guilty of it as a teacher for a long time is we want children to learn so a lot of what color is that, what number is that? And our play gets very directive. So some of the relationship building play. Where you really can build trust with a child is the type of play where you kind of follow their lead and see what they want to do and narrate as they go along and say things like I'm right here if you need me, but not take over the play. So we work with teachers on how do you kind of find that balance of doing relational play and there's so much research behind the importance of really relational play and just these short one-on-one sequences that don't have to happen. We hear all the time I have 18 children in a room. How can I possibly play one-on-one with all of them? But it's these short moments of play that really are shown to make a big difference, especially with children that you're feeling less connected with or children that are displaying some of those challenging behaviors. 

06:28 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So can you give a concrete example of what relational play might look like? Sure. 

06:33 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
So you know, actually I was just talking to a teacher who is working with a child who loves puzzles. So you know she was saying every day now she started doing a thing where he comes into the classroom, brings the puzzle, she'll sit with him for a minute and just let him start doing it and say, oh, I see this piece is really tough. And just kind of narrating the sequence as he does it, do you want my help? Can I watch you and get so excited when he puts a piece in and he's excited, she gets excited. So it's kind of matching that affect and having that play alongside that child and then finding ways to insert yourself in play throughout the day. So you know she might do that one-on-one sequence with him there. 

07:12
But then when they're in centers and she knows that this child has a hard time with negotiation with other children, kind of inserting yourself in the play and going in. You know if they're playing restaurant, you know you sit down at the table with them and like, oh, we're at this restaurant and we're going to order this and oh, no, there's only one piece of cake left. Like what do we do? And you kind of get into their play but mess it up a little and make these children have to find those tools within themselves to negotiate or problem solve and that type of play. 

07:42 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So it's offering invitations rather than taking it over, but you're modeling the kinds of behaviors you want to see. 

07:48 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Exactly and thinking about maybe some of those skills that you see lacking throughout in this child, those pro-social skills, and how can I help them through play when they're relaxed and they're having fun and their mind is open. We know sometimes when a child's in distress, that's when we're trying to teach them lessons, but that's when their mind is most closed off to learn those lessons. So what are some of the things we can do when they're happy and calm and interested, that we can kind of insert ourselves in and start thinking about what are some of the skills this child could gain by me kind of coming in and facilitating a little play and joining into the play scenario. 

08:29 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You know and as you're saying that I'm realizing that's a huge part also for the adults who are running the center that often when we come in to intervene with teachers or in the boardroom, you know when we're intervening with our coworkers it's at the point they're least likely to want to hear what we have to say, whereas if you're stepping in, when you're in a happy, relaxed, positive place, they're much more likely to listen to hear what we have to say, whereas if you're stepping in. 

08:50 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
When you're in a happy, relaxed, positive place, they're much more likely to listen to your input. Exactly, and we work with directors all the time, Like we. What we know is good for children, we know, is good for everybody, right? Sometimes we see these classrooms set up beautifully, where there is, you know, this type of play corner, there's a sensory area, there's a calm area, there's all these things, and then you step out of the classroom and there's no space for a teacher, there's no space for them to have a quiet moment, there's no space for them to have. 

09:14
I have this one center we've been working with and I just love what she did. She cleaned out two closets in the center that were just restoring a lot of junk, and one was the calm area for teachers, and she just had one, alexa, that you could say to put on your favorite song, and then she had a rage room where you could go into the room, close it, tear paper, do all these things that we know are important for children, for the adults as well. So I love how you brought that up. Thinking through the same thing, when we're working with educators, we need to find the right time to work with them and we need to do it in a relational way, not just in I saw you do this, this and this, and this is your assessment and here's how I'm coaching you but really understanding them as a person and getting to know them and building that trust, just like we do with children, through relational play. 

09:57 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I think it's critical and so many of the things that we're talking about for three and four and five-year-olds apply to us as adults as well. Yeah, so we've got relational play. There's also sort of that play cycle where you know, when you're trying to get your content in that you're allowing invitations, providing opportunities to explore, and then you step in and you insert yourself and you might throw in some content, vocabulary or I wonders. You know, I wonder why this is this. And then after that, then you can go into the parts where you might do stuff, where you would do your experiments and collect data and have your group discussion about what you found. How do you incorporate or teach people how to do that kind of play as well? 

10:44 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yeah. So we you know everything we do at First Day Learning we want to be simple and actionable. We know teachers have so much on their plate, so we have these different method cards and they have the different type of play that we do. So some of that is build trust and that's that relational play. We have facilitate negotiation that walks you through the steps of entering into a play scenario. And then we have one that we love called Engineer Empathy, and it's all about actually setting up, and this is intentional. 

11:14
Before you go into your classroom is setting up. I'm going to take a small group over and have this play that I'm intentionally doing. So I'm going to create a play scenario. So you know, maybe we're at breakfast and this child has all these you know pancakes and juice and berries, and this child has a cracker, and we look at the scene and we set it up and we get children to like, really think through in a small group what does that look like? And make it like a movie or they're watching a screen, because a lot of children can identify with that these days. 

11:37
So, thinking about those three types of play, one is how you build trust and do that relational play, which is one-on-one. One is going into a play scenario that's already happening and then the third one is creating your own context, like having a very intentional small group of children that you group together and having this play scenario that's already in your mind and you're going to set up and ask some questions and do little interviews and really get them to understand, but again, all when they're not in distress and not when they're having those big behaviors. These are all as you do it. They start to learn these skills so that when they are in those moments they can learn, look back on skills they're doing. 

12:16
The other type of play we really work on is making sure we're doing enough sensory play. So we know that children come in with needing to have this like heavy work and these big body movements, and a lot of times they don't get that opportunity throughout the day. So games where you can push against a wall as hard as you can Some of my favorite I do this with teachers all the time is holding your hands up in the air and counting to 10 and being a superhero and things that are really making you push and pull and carry and use muscles that we know carry this angst in our bodies. 

12:47 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Oh, I love that you know you said the word engineering empathy and that's a huge part of what I've been working on with adults and kids as well is the notion that we need empathy as the thing that binds us together. It's sort of that key ingredient that I think is missing right now in terms of being able to understand, collaborate, think critically. How do you go about engineering empathy? 

13:13 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Well, some is in those play scenarios that we talked about. 

13:15
Really, getting a lot of ways we talk about with teachers is also through narrative right when you're reading a book, no matter what the book is about, getting children to notice how people are feeling, how they're looking at one another, putting yourselves in their place, celebrating differences among us. 

13:32
I think that is somewhat, like you said, is lacking in this world, and children come with that, but they need those skills to be developed. So the more we can do perspective taking, the more we can look at narratives and talk about what their face is showing and how they feel. We also work with teachers to write their own stories, so to think about some issues they've seen in the class and make a story that they can read. We know children love to learn through narrative. So if the teachers can read a book and I see you have some of those great books behind you there, some of those books that teach these stories of empathy or create a you there, some of those books that teach these stories of empathy or create a story in our own classroom that's really related to some of the differences that you see that are getting in the way of that empathy. 

14:16 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love that when I think about empathy, it's a skill that we learn and it's a muscle we exercise. The ability starts at around age three to really be able to empathize and take perspective. But it's got to be used every single day to really be effective, and so we can do that through read alouds, through the games we play, through modeling. I love that you all are ingraining that in what you're doing. 

14:39 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yeah, and we see it help. I mean that helps with behavior so much when children can perspective take and see another side and really develop those skills. So it is so important to work with children, especially children that are having challenges and that are struggling in that area. How do we get them to practice it all throughout the classroom, Not just you know when you're talking about it at story time, but then going into these play scenarios and creating conflict and helping them resolve and seeing, perspective taking and really kind of ingraining it into everything they do throughout their day in the classroom. 

15:14 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You know, and I think adults get tangled up when you say the word empathy and thinking that you've got to adopt that person's perspective or ideas. And that's not the point. It's to have understanding so that you can disagree respectfully, but you at least have a sense of where they're coming from and that helps you to build relationships. 

15:34 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Exactly. I have this one teacher we were working with and I love that she was always so nervous about when a conflict would happen in the classroom, because we all get nervous, kids get nervous, of course. Nobody likes conflict. People are fighting. 

15:46
So we're really talking about removing that stigma of conflict and I was in her class the other day and she was like these two children had a little, were having a little moment and she stopped the class and she's like we have a conflict and like got everyone to come over and like let's kind of look into it. I mean they were like calm enough that she could do this but like really started to embrace conflict and like look at it as an opportunity instead of this moment, to like get over quickly and you who had the toy first and you had it and done like really coming in and saying let's like children we have and she's created like we help teachers they might create like an investigation station or a solution center or somewhere in their classroom they can go when these problems are happening. They remind them of some of these skills that they've been practicing. So really was excited to see this teacher embrace conflict in a very different way. 

16:35 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I was just trying to imagine a corporate setting with somebody seeing a conflict beginning to happen and going. We have a conflict, let's all come together and fix it. 

16:46 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
How great would that be right? What a fun place to work. I'm like I kind of like that, yeah, that's kind of fun, yeah, so really like taking away that stigma of conflict, and I think a lot of that has to do with building empathy skills, like you're saying. You don't have to get along, but be able to embrace the fact that there is going to be a conflict and it's okay and we can have different perspectives as long as we know how to navigate them. 

17:10 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You know, and I think that a huge part of that, in terms of the empathy building, especially in that early childhood setting, is, as you were saying, talking about the read-alouds and being able to provide books, and I think Dr Rudine Sims Bishop did it so well for us with the windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors idea, you know, and that's something that, again, I think people have to be familiar with it and it's something we have to, not not every teacher comes out of school knowing the vast array of books that are available to them and there are so many beautiful books out there that can help us. Yeah, into somebody else's story. 

17:47 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yeah, books out there that can help us. 

17:48
Yeah, into somebody else's story, yeah, and we, unfortunately we see a lot of teachers in early childhood that don't feel prepared, that haven't had a lot of opportunity to learn or be exposure to these books or exposure to the type of behavioral training we try to provide them, like understanding, like there's a function of a behavior and once you know the function you can have a effective and really like all of that learning that might not happen in their teacher prep program, if they even get one. 

18:12
A lot of you know is what some of the stuff that first day learning is really trying to bring to the field. How can we have simple, actionable ways to make you feel ready and confident as you walk into that classroom? Because it can be scary to walk into a classroom. I had a teacher tell me she was terrified of the three-year-olds in her classroom because there were so many of them and so little of her and it was scary, you know, and they all come with these different personalities and and all so much is happening throughout the day. So how do we help them feel in the right mindset to look at their classroom as this adventure and as this challenge and look at all of this conflict as something to embrace and to better understand. 

18:54 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
To recognize that every child who comes through our classroom has potential. So it's looking at their assets and not necessarily viewing them through a deficit lens, because every kid who comes in has this amazing inner flame that needs to be nurtured. And sometimes that's hard to do in that day to day when you're terrified of the 18, three year olds that are running around. 

19:16 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yes, and they can. I mean they can make your life a little hard. You know some very oppositional others. You know, when they're doing scary things like throwing a chair or climbing mats or doing something that could hurt themselves or others, it is a scary place to be for a teacher. So understanding how to have a response in those moments, how to regulate yourself so that you can go in and respond effectively, is a lot of what we work on as well how to how to teach teachers to be self-regulated so they can co-regulate with the children in their classroom. 

19:46 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
That makes a lot of sense. So if somebody wanted to work with you all, what are some of the things that you offer? How do people go about setting up a relationship with you? 

19:56 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yeah well, we, as you saw, we go to a lot of conferences. We're working with Head Starts across the country. So we oftentimes it's word of mouth, you know people say, hey, these guys came on site. They really helped us. We can do virtual training, we do training on site. We come in and can model strategies. 

20:14
A lot of teachers will go through our behavior bootcamp, which is a two-day program that looks at all these like preventative factors and talks about all these play scenarios that we're talking about but then looks at, okay, now the child is throwing the chair, like what are some ways you can do to identify the function of that behavior so that you have a plan in place to support that child, to teach them a replacement behavior? So we do all of that, both like virtually and on site. But we love to get to know an organization and really understand their pain points, because challenging behavior is a big umbrella of things that could be happening. So what is happening in your, in your center? How are your teachers feeling? 

20:52
Sometimes it starts with just doing a lot of teacher wellbeing training. We have one called you first that really looks at these like hacks on, like how to set up better sleep hygiene, how to eat in a way that you're going to feel better. How to, like, really prepare yourself first as a person, how to manage the stress that's going to come at you, how to communicate clearly and have a formula for effective communication. So, really looking at the educator first and then looking at what are the challenges that the program's facing and how can we partner and help and support. 

21:25 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love that, and I know that you offer sort of a tailor-made approach so that each school is getting what they need and that you're able to do things both online and you know and in person, which I think is fabulous, especially in this day and age where travel can be a challenge for folks. Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. 

21:45 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
All right. 

21:46 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So I'm going to ask you a question that's near and dear to my heart Do you have a favorite children's book that you like to use when you're working? 

21:53 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
So many. This one wasn't always my favorite, but I have to tell you when I went back to it so, going back to Tonga I only had a few books that they had in their library. One was Corduroy. Do you know the story of Corduroy? I know Corduroy. One was Corduroy. Do you know? 

22:06 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
the story of Corduroy. 

22:07 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
I know Corduroy, so we talked about it, and the thing that I loved about this classroom of children is all they wanted to talk about and then we went on like a three-week study of this was that there are actually stairs that move in the world. So they had never seen an escalator. So I was trying to teach them all these pro-social behaviors and all this stuff, and what they focused on was that escalator. But so I have many. 

22:32
I tell teachers all the time to find the one that speaks to you, and oftentimes teachers find a book that wasn't even about a social emotional lesson but then start to adopt their own. And one thing we always do and I have this near me at First Day Learning is we really try to encourage them to write their own story, to think about what they're seeing in the classroom, think about what's near and dear to them and come up with a narrative that they would read to their class that addresses some of the challenges that they're seeing. So you know, creating your own story, and a lot of times they'll put the children in their classrooms' names in there, and it's just so awesome. 

23:08 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and that's so important, because kids and adults need to be seen, they need to have their stories heard and they need to feel valued and respected. 

23:16 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
Yeah, I would love to turn that question back on you. What is your favorite children's book that you love to read? 

23:21 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Oh gosh, in some ways that's asking me to sort of pick a favorite child, which is really hard to do there, to sort of pick a favorite child, which is really hard to do. 

23:29
You know, there are so many out there that I love. I would say that one of my favorites right now yeah, I love Patchwork by Matt de la Pena and Karina Lukin, but I love that one for adults, not for kids. And what I love about that one is it sort. It sort of turns that question what are you going to be when you grow up? On its head? And so when I'm working with teachers, I love to have them think about who were you when you were four, who are you now and what do you still have dreams of doing or being. Because we kind of think, oh, I'm done, I'm 35 and I'm teaching and there's nothing else and there's so much more to your life. And so I'll use that as a jumping off point with teachers to have them think about you know, how do we view our kids? And are we giving our kids a chance to grow and to explore and to experiment, recognizing that just because a kid is the dancer or the sports kid doesn't mean that's who that kid is. There's more to them. They're a multifaceted individual. So I love that one. 

24:36
I also use it as a springboard for doing some STEM and STEAM engineering with teachers. They'll make their own patches. We build a quilt. We talk about the computational thinking that goes into having to put these patches together. We talk about collaboration, how they had to use critical thinking. So it's my sneaky way of warming teachers up, getting them in that same space with me, so that we're thinking then about how do we apply these 21st century skills to our kids and also to ourselves and that's part of that self-care as well. Yeah, really. 

25:12
So I really love that book for that. But yeah, there are so many wonderful books. 

25:17 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
The one you just made me think of. Another favorite of mine is my Many Colored Days, because looking at children like we don't have to be that one person. We're not the dancer, we are everything on different days, and some days we're orange and some days we're blue, and on different days for different too. You know, like I love that thinking about how each it's not going to be the same every day, and I and I and teachers fall into that pattern of labeling children sometimes. Oh, we need you to come because this one's a really hard one or this one, and then we start like exploring. You know, different times of day, different activities you're doing bring out different aspects of children. So like trying to identify strengths and likes and dislikes and really incorporating that into everything you do in the classroom. 

25:59 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And I always found for me when I was in the classroom that was the source of joy and discovery was finding those hidden secrets that a kid had about who they were and what they were good at. I mean talk about experts. Anybody who's ever been in early childhood knows that these four-year-olds can become absolute scientific experts on things I mean have you ever seen a four-year-old with a dinosaur. Oh my gosh. 

26:23 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
I know, or trucks, or you know, ladybugs, yeah, and that joy is infectious. And I try to remind teachers of, like, looking at that face, like you're saying when they hold up that dinosaur, and they're, you know, trying to get back into remembering and I love how you're doing that quote work remembering you know, like you're saying what they wanted to be when they grew up, remembering why we got into teaching in the first place, because it's so easy to show up every day and feel like, wow, especially this past year. Teachers are struggling, they're overwhelmed. We've had more teacher turnover than we've ever seen in early childhood. So really helping them to remember what it was that drew them to this field and how we can spark some of that joy back into what they're doing. 

27:06 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, I love that, and if people would like to learn how to spark joy, I'm going to drop in the show notes. I'm going to redo that part. Actually, I love that, and if people want to learn how to spark joy, I'm going to drop your information in the show notes so that they can contact you all and get started on building a relationship. 

27:27 - Rebecca List Freedman (Guest)
I would love that. So we're here. We want to hear about your program and help you with educator wellness and challenging behaviors. 

27:36 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Wonderful. Thank you, Rebecca, for joining us today.