00:02 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So welcome to the Adventures in Learning podcast. I'm your host, dr Diane, and joy is the word that comes to mind when I think about our next guest. Kayla Harren is the illustrator of so many beautiful books, including this Is how we Play and the most recent, this Is how we Talk. We're also going to be going to South Africa together as part of a Wild Tomorrow conservation trip, and I'm just so excited to bring her to you today. Kayla, welcome to the show.
00:32 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yay, thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here talking with you.
00:36 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So let's dive right in, and I'd love to talk about your two books that are, you know, the books that you've got out right now, because it's Disability Pride Month, and I know I've been hearing from graduate students that, as they're looking to provide books that are windows and mirrors, books that represent children with different abilities, doing all kinds of things where the disability isn't necessarily centered as the primary focus, seem to be lacking and you have not one, but at least two books that really center joy and center different experiences, and I thought maybe you could start by talking a little bit about your work.
01:19 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yay, yeah, the authors of this is how we Play and this Is how we Talk Jessica Slice and Caroline Kupp. They are both disabled mothers and activists and that was their goal with these books is, you know, as disabled mothers, they were looking for books to share with their kids that showed disabled adults, and they were looking and looking and I don't think they could find any. They were some disabled children, but not just disabled people in general, and they wanted to show something. Have books out there that were just full of joy that people in all kinds of bodies can play. You just get creative and adaptive and everybody deserves to find joy and play.
02:01 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, in your illustrations, absolutely the joy screams off the page as you look at your work and I'm wondering you know, how did you go about sort of researching, Because I assume there was some research that went into creating these illustrations. How did you go about doing that?
02:19 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Oh yeah, so first I got advice from the authors in order for them to write the book. They interviewed a bunch of families I can't remember the number like 20 different families, each with a disabled family member, and they were the inspiration for each spread of the book. So I was able to see some reference photos and get their notes. And then also the publisher recommended a bunch of books about disabilities from disabled activists. So I read a lot of books and there were picture books and adult novels and then there were some reference photos from the families they interviewed and I also now follow a bunch of disabled influencers on Instagram, since there's on Instagram.
03:13
I just did all kinds of research for this book because it was about making the people feel real and alive and accuracy was super important but also fun. Like they have to be accurate but also, you know, there's some movement, there's some joy, there's some fun. So not just like textbook, not like here's what a wheelchair looks like, and it's very rigid and scientific. It's sort of accurate but fun. So it's kind of a hard balance to find.
03:31 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, and you're also not telling a single story, and I think that's what also makes it so rich, is it's not zeroing in on one particular disability. You show a wide range of people in everyday life and I'm wondering would you be willing to share a couple of pages from the book to sort of give us a flavor of it?
03:50 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yeah yeah. The cover itself was my favorite part to illustrate, because when I get a project like this, where it's like just show a lot of diversity, make a lot of people feel seen, then it's overwhelming because there's no way I'll ever fit everyone into the book and so I just am like cramming as many people as I can like. Oh what if a kid looks like this? Or I saw on the street someone who looked like this? I gotta include them. So I just love packing uh illustrations with as many people as I can. So the cover is actually my favorite, and the dust jacket extends even a little bit farther.
04:29 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Oh fun, and I love the fact that it goes from a read aloud through all kinds of different parts of your day.
04:37 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yeah, this book this Is how we Talk is the second one. A companion to this Is how we Play, and the authors had the idea that this book would take place over the course of a day, over a course of a school day. So it starts out. I also this was very fun for me to do the end papers, because it's in sort of like a mural style that kids painted.
04:59 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And they're so bright and vivid.
05:02 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Thanks. It was fun to illustrate like this because so many of my characters are just very, very realistic so it's takes me kind of a long time to draw them. And then this I was like, oh, it's fun just being free, having fun. So it starts out with kids getting ready for school and all the various ways that they communicate. Sometimes there's just communication through body language, sometimes they're writing, and this was another one of my favorites. Yeah, and I just like adding really interesting light to illustrations. I think, because when I do a book that takes place in reality, everyone's following the laws of physics I just fear that it could be boring, just people doing people stuff. So I'm like, how can I make this interesting and tell the story and highlight the important parts of the image?
05:54
And so that's when I try and add a lot of interesting lighting important parts of the image, and so that's when I try and add a lot of interesting lighting. Oh, and that would be such a really fun thing for people to do as they're reading the book is to follow the light and sort of see what you're spotlighting yeah, there's sparkly things around what's important?
06:09
and then this one, uh, as it goes through the course of the day we start at sunrise, then we go to afternoon light and then we do end in darkness at nighttime it's just beautiful and, yeah, and I love the fact that there are so many different people sitting at the table.
06:30 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
You've got just the joy of everyday family life and it's just beautiful. Your, your work. As I was looking at it and sort of going through your website as well, there's this beautiful diversity in all that you do and I was going to ask are you drawn to projects that allow you to explore the wonderful diversity of the human experience?
06:55 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of funny how my career trajectory has changed. I started off doing animal books and animal books about nature and then I started doing just very silly books that were kind of you know, like fun, rhymy, alphabet, messy, silly books. And then I think the world kind of changed a little bit and the projects that I was getting hired to do started getting more serious. My style got more realistic and it was about just making kids feel seen and understood and showing the complexity of our world. And so now I do a lot of people and I think that's super fun because I like really detailed work.
07:35
I just like adding lots of details and hidden Easter eggs and stuff. And I look at or I think of my art as being a conversation starter. So like the job of my art is to, like the words in a picture book, tell you what's happening, and then my art is there to tell you how to feel about that and also to start conversations. So I want kids to be looking at all the details and then ask in their safe learning environment, like why does this person have this on their body? Or like what's this? And then it's just a safe way to ask these questions have. These conversations talk about how different people are and you're avoiding that like possible embarrassment or offensiveness if you're doing it in the real world when you encounter these situations. So this is the way to start those conversations in a safe place.
08:27 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, one of the things I think is a hallmark of a great illustrator is you've got the text but then you extend it and you add those Easter eggs or those extra details, the things that allow you to enter the story and ask questions, and that's what I feel I get in terms of just the richness of what you've put out, is there's additional stuff to sort of engage with the story and to get curious about, and that's really fun.
08:55 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yeah, that's what's fun for me.
08:59 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So how did you get into illustrating in the first place? Tell us a little bit about your adventures in learning. Were you always interested in drawing and creating, or is that something that came later?
09:08 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
I definitely was. I definitely was interested in drawing and writing, but I didn't understand that that could be a job. It was just sort of like like saying you wanted to be an illustrator was the same as saying you want to be an actor. It's like it works out for some select few, but that's not like a realistic thing. So I just knew that I wanted to go to school in New York City when it was time to apply for colleges and so I looked at what is the possible degrees that I could study, and there was an art history degree at all colleges they seem to have. Their art program was art history. And I was like, ok, I guess I'll do art history, even though I'm terrible at remembering names and dates and history itself isn't my strongest subject. But I was like OK, so I'll apply to NYU and I guess my career has started off with a rejection.
09:58
And then that's like sort of catapulted where I am now because I applied to NYU and I didn't get in. So then I was like, oh no, what do I do? And when I was in New York City on the subway I saw an ad for the School of Visual Arts and it just kind of blew my mind. I was like there is an entire college just for art. Like how did I not know about this before? And so that's what got the idea in my head that I could just study art and then be in New York City. And then it just kind of happened from there. I took a children's book class at SVA and realized this is what I got to do.
10:32 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
That's wonderful and, as you said, your career has sort of spanned a wide range of things from animal books to realistic, and you and I are going to South Africa together later this fall and we're going as part of a conservation program with children's book authors and illustrators and folks like me who love it and support the industry. I'm wondering what sort of is driving you to want to go to South Africa? Are there more animal books potentially coming out in the future?
11:05 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
I really hope so. I mean, I want to keep doing people books, but animal books for sure. That's what started my career. So when I, before I ever had any books traditionally published, I had just graduated from college and I was sending my work to publishers, getting rejected, rejected, more rejections I, luckily, through a friend of a friend of a friend of my husband's uncle was a scientist at the Wild Nature Institute, which is an organization in Tanzania where these scientists study giraffes. They've developed this technology, this photography technology, to identify giraffes based on their spot patterns, because each giraffe's spot patterns is unique to them, like a fingerprint, and so they're tracking the giraffes.
11:49
And Monica Bond, a scientist at Wild Nature Institute, wrote a picture book and she needed an illustrator and so I illustrated the book. Juma the Giraffe was my very a picture book and she needed an illustrator and so I illustrated the book. Juma the Giraffe was my very first picture book and this was so much fun that the author, Monica Bond, wrote another book about elephants and then another one about rhinos, and they're all fun storybooks that are related to wildlife conservation, just getting kids excited about wildlife in Africa. And then through that, through that connection, I was recommended to another organization called Lion Landscapes, and they also do conservation work for large carnivores. So the first one I did was Durham the Lion Defender, and then another one about hyenas, and then another one about hornbills, and so I have done all these books about African wildlife and yet I've never been to Africa.
12:53
I would just use the reference photos and videos that the scientists in Africa would send to me, and so I thought I really got to go there someday. And then I started scrolling on Instagram and people a bunch of artists that I follow were showing pictures of themselves in Africa with other children's book illustrators and I was like what is this? That sounds like amazing, like why I want to do that. And then when I saw that you could apply to go to South Africa with CBCC, I was like I have to. This is just like made for me. So that's, that's my story and how I got into it.
13:27 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love that and I love sort of the way that this is a spiral and is bringing you back to sort of that beginning passion from your career. That's really cool. Is there anything that you're like dreaming of or particularly hoping to see while you're in South Africa?
13:42 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
I'm just ready for everything like from dung beetles to giraffes. I want to see it all.
13:51 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I agree with you.
13:52 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
I'm curious about your story.
13:55 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So I've always loved animals and have been fascinated by them and, like as I've taught STEM and STEAM to kids, I've always included animals because it's such an accessible way to get kids interested in science. It's something relatable and connectable. And then as we start exploring animal life, we can move into habitats, biomes and other people, and so I've always had a little kid's fascination about it. And I had interviewed Candace Fleming for the podcast back when I first started this, and it was right as she was getting ready to go on the trip to South Africa. And so I wound up following the whole trip on Instagram and I thought I would love to join at some point, like that would be just such the coolest trip ever. And so when they opened up the applications, I thought, well, it's a long shot, but I'm like I'm going to go ahead and apply and just see what happens.
14:49
And when Haley and John said, yes, you get to go, I was dancing around the living room, just so happy because I've never been to Africa and I'm just so excited to be able to see it, to be there with you all and hopefully to find ways to build connections and bring this back in a way that we can get kids and teachers asking questions and feeling that same sort of wonder that we do as adults to make it accessible for them. So that's kind of my hope. Plus, there's that option to see the penguins in Cape Town at the very end, and my bucket list goal in life now is to see all 18 species. The penguins in Cape town at the very end, and my bucket list goal in life now is to see all 18 species of penguins in the wild. Oh, my goodness, what number are you at right now? Um, I am currently at four, but by the end of this year I'll be at six, Nice. So you know it's a good life, life bucket goal.
15:44 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yes, I love that. That's a fantastic goal. Life bucket goal.
15:47 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Yes, I love that. That's a fantastic goal, and I also want to be able to help tell the stories of the helpers, the people who are doing the work of conservation, and I think that that's part of what I like about Wild Tomorrow is that they're really working with the people who live on the land as they're looking at rewilding. So it's not a coming in and doing something, it's a how can we collaborate together to make this work for everybody?
16:11 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yeah, that's beautiful and I'm also excited to be around hopeful people like dedicate your life to wildlife conservation. You have to have hope that it can get better, and I feel like I just really want to be surrounded by that kind of energy.
16:26 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I think we all need that kind of energy. I was talking to somebody recently and I asked them you know sort of what is your biggest hope right now? And I loved their answer. It kind of stopped me in their tracks because they said my biggest hope is the fact that we still have hope and I thought, ooh, that really makes sense. If you can hold on to that concept, then there's still something good out there.
16:51
Absolutely, that's inspiring, love it. So what are some of the cool projects that are coming up for you? I know you've got these books out. I assume you're working on other things for future publication.
17:03 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yes, definitely. I have a book that's about building a snow fort and that's kind of a really exciting project for me because, like I said before, a lot of my books just take place in reality, and that's awesome. I love reflecting the world how it is. But this book is about imagination, and so I get to have like dragons and like magical creatures come to life, and so there's like the imagination, fantasy element, which is very fun.
17:28
And then I'm working on, or I finished, a book that's coming out next year about puppies, which has been an absolute dream project because puppies are my life and it was so exciting to do that. I had the same issue with that book that I do with people books, where I'm like I need to include everybody in this book and I need to include all the dogs there's so many species, but then all the mutts have to be in there too and I don't want anyone to feel left out. So I just like ram 50 dogs on each page and that was super fun. And then I'm also writing a book about tattoos with my husband who is a tattoo artist, and so that I feel like maybe I shouldn't be talking about it yet because I don't want to jinx it. We haven't sold it yet, but it's fun actually writing instead of just illustrating. It is an entirely new challenge.
18:15 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
That seems like a really cool collab as well to be able to do that with your spouse. That's cool.
18:21 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yeah, it's been super fun and I hope it happens.
18:24 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I hope it becomes a book. Well, and tattoo art is something that really has come into its own over the last 15, 20 years as well. I mean, it's just gorgeous.
18:36 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, there's so much rich history with it. But then so many questions that I could understand kids would have like seeing tattoos all over the world. Like what do they mean? Why did they get them? How do they work?
18:49 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Well, I'm definitely when you sell this, because I'm going to put it out into the universe that it is going to sell. When you sell this, you've got to come back because I would love to talk more about that, because I'm just intrigued by it. You strike me, kayla, as having a very playful spirit that you bring into your work, and I'm wondering, as an adult, how do you make space for play in your own life?
19:11 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
That's a great question. I feel like just being an artist is playing. Like I'm drawing pictures every day, I'm coloring, I'm going for walks and noticing things that I would like to make. Like right now I have just been super obsessed with collecting flowers and then pressing them and then putting them in resin and making little like jewelry doodads out of them, and so just like having that connection to nature and looking for things that you can turn into something else is super playful. And also just living with dogs like they're so silly and part of their health is playing with them. Like taking them outside to run around, throw a stick, like that just changes my whole perspective on like that is actually really healthy, because then they get their play out and then they get tired and then like a tired dog is a good dog and maybe that can translate to humans too, like a human that has played today is going to be happier and healthier. So I feel like it's just everywhere in my life.
20:13 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
I love that, and one of the things that I talk about a lot is the idea that when we play, we're building all kinds of skills that we need as adults and it starts as kids, obviously but we're able to better empathize with other people. It's so good for our mental health, it's good for our physical health, you know. It makes us intellectually, I think, sharper as well, because we're problem solving, we're having to innovate and work with the resources we have, and I just I would love to see play sort of make its way from the preschool level all the way up into adult life, because I think we give up play far too easily as grownups, and that is like becoming another being and imagining what life is like for them and then ways to solve a problem. And you know it doesn't mean that we agree with everybody. I mean I know when, when we played as kids, we didn't always agree with people, but we had to work our way through conflict.
21:37 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's so beautiful. I guess that makes sense, that that's what your whole platform is built on.
21:43 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
That's like a really great strong idea that form is built on, that's like a really great, strong idea. Well, and that's what one of the reasons I'm so excited to travel with you all is it's traveling with a crew of people who literally build their careers around play, creativity and empathy, and I feel like when you get that kind of community together, there's so much power for change and just for doing better in the world.
22:09 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
I agree.
22:11 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
So I'm going to finish by asking you one final question, and it's the question I alluded to earlier, which is what currently brings you hope.
22:22 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Hope is very tough. I feel like I have hope for, like, my little life. I can't think too big about the whole world or else I get super overwhelmed, but like my husband, my dogs, my parents, my family, my little life gives me hope, like seeing the joy in kids reading books that gives me hope.
22:49 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
And it's those small things, it really is the little things that add up to sort of help us move past the darkness where we live right now. So hopefully we'll be able to bring some hope back for everybody from our trip as well.
23:04 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Yes, yes, that's what I am hoping for Exactly so, kayla.
23:08 - Dr Diane Jackson Schnoor (Host)
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. I am going to drop a link in the show notes so that people can follow you online, that they'll be able to order your books, because you guys, you really need to follow Kayla and you need to go out and get her entire catalog of books, because they're all wonderful. Thanks for joining us.
23:27 - Kayla Harren (Guest)
Thank you so much. It was great hanging out with you. Thank you.
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