Orco the Magnificent, Sh*tty Wizard - Religious Rebellion with Grant Nordine (D&D5e)

Grant brings Orco the Magnificent to the table. Orco is not a very good wizard, but he gives it his best shot.

Grant and I discuss religious trauma, high school theater, and the opposite of min-maxing.

This character is built for D&D5e.

Grant Nordine is the titular game master of Game Master Monday and the guide for Bella's Comet. Grant is an award-winning actor and writer with stage, film, music, and podcasting credits. As the GM of Game Master Monday, he runs a new one-shot in a new system with a new cast every episode.

You can learn more about Grant at:
https://www.characterswithoutstories.com/guests/grant-nordine

This episode, I recommend the podcast Why We Roll. You can check it out here:
https://whyweroll.org

Torchlit Tavern is a D&D actual play podcast set in the homebrew world of Obscuria, where unlikely heroes find themselves at the center of political intrigue and potential global catastrophe.
http://torchlittavern.com

Cover art by The Curiographer
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecuriographer

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Thanks for listening, and may all your characters find their stories!

Transcript

Grant: 0:00

Kind of like a, like, like a Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer situation, that elf who wants to be a dentist. Uh, this is the orc who wants to be a magician.

Star: 0:08

One end of the spectrum is the min maxer, and at the other end of the spectrum, I don't know that there's a name for it.

Grant: 0:15

The min minner? Here I thought my funny little orc magician would just be like, a cool feel good episode, and here I am talking about religious trauma and high school theater. It's D& D Cocomelon. It's just like, I can make these bright lights.

Star: 1:08

Welcome to Characters Without Stories, a TTRPG podcast about the roads not yet traveled. I'm Star. This episode I'm joined by Grant Nordine. Grant is the titular Game Master of Game Master Monday, the podcast that plays a new one shot in a new setting with a new cast every episode. He is also the guide for the actual play podcast, Bella's Comet. Grant. Thank you so much fOrcoming.

Grant: 1:31

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be on this show. Actually.

Star: 1:35

I will be appearing on Grant's podcast, uh, playing a game called Cast Away, but this has already happened by the time that you're listening to this.

Grant: 1:45

A couple of months ago, uh, Star was on our show.

Star: 1:48

It's a while past at this point. Please go check that out. Uh, it's a really fun podcast. Give it a listen.

Grant: 1:54

And Star's so good on it, just for the record here. Like, she wasn't just on the show, she crushes it on that episode. So yeah, go check that out.

Star: 2:00

It's a really fun episode. The other characters are so much fun. Yeah, we've got the, the dad energy vet and the puzzle master and the influencer. It's very funny. Motley crew.

Grant: 2:12

So fun. One of my favorites.

Star: 2:14

So is there anything you want to tell listeners about yourself?

Grant: 2:17

Sure. Well, like she mentioned, my name's Grant. I've been playing. TTRPGs, well I started playing TTRPGs during the pandemic because I got really into a D& D podcast, not one of the big ones, I got into Rude Tales of Magic, and I suddenly learned that D& D was actually very funny and could be ridiculous and goofy and wasn't like a bunch of people pretending to play Lord of the Rings, shame on me.

Star: 2:45

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Grant: 2:47

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but folks, I, I'm a weirdo. I'm a, I'm a goofy guy. I don't do high fantasy very well. But I got really into doing that and then I, I fell in love with TTRPGs as a vehicle for, uh, storytelling and improvisational wOrc and playing a cool game with your cool friends and, and now here I am, uh, on our podcast. We play a different one shot every episode. So I've ran like. 30 systems at this point, all in different genres and settings and styles. And yeah, you know, whenever I start to like something, I like it really hard. I do not know how to pump the brakes. It took me a long time to get the hang of d and d and you know, when you're first starting a new hobby and you're not immediately good at it, that can be frustrating Um, eventually I did get the hang of it and I still, you know, I still have positive things to say about the game as a system. Maybe not the company who makes it, but the system is fine. what, what made me wanna branch out and try other stuff? Was I was finding it as I was getting more engrossed in that game and that hobby And I tried to pull people into my vortex I was finding that people probably weren't resonating really hard like a 250 page fucking book That took them a while to build a character in and then they could eventually play and then a lot of playing is wait how do I wait can I wait can't so I kind of started looking for like what are the games I can pick up and play quickly easily and show other people. And then I end up finding stuff like Grant Howitt has a lot of great games like Honey Heist and The Witch is Dead and Jason Statham's Big Holiday. I haven't heard of that one. Listen, if the guy that made Honey Heist has made a whole bunch of other one page one shots and they're all insane, I highly recommend just going through his page one day. But, you know, then I started wanting to like, well, what are the other cool systems out there? So I just made it my my mission to learn. as many systems as I could and then start pulling in people to play those things. And thus my podcast was born. So we played, you know, big names like D& D and Call of Cthulhu and Pathfinder and Vampire the Masquerade. But we also play a lot of indie games like Cast Away, like you and I played. We played a game called Lesbian Werewolf Crime Fighters.

Star: 5:06

Which I love. That was a really fun episode.

Grant: 5:08

So good.

Star: 5:09

Yeah.

Grant: 5:09

So good. Our friend Dusty Hill made that game, you know, stuff like that. So I just really have been enjoying diving into the world of like smaller indie RPGs. And I feel like that's what the big cool ideas are and the stuff that really resonates with my little weirdo brain.

Star: 5:25

I think I would be intimidated to try and run games in that many systems. Just being the GM. I'm fully down with playing all of them, and I've played so many systems in the last couple years, but how do you approach running all these different games?

Grant: 5:42

It helps if you have, what one of my therapist ones called, a healthy dose of narcissism, just enough to stay interesting and want to be in control. But not enough to be an asshole about it. I believe normal people call it self confidence. No, I mean, I mean, what it really is, is I, I get very fixated on stuff and I just want to learn as much as I can as fast as I can with as many things as I can. So it's just the way my brain wOrcs. I love telling stories and whenever I'm like, I'm reading a whole bunch of systems, but they've been sent to me or I find them online. And if I read something and like a story clicks in my brain, I'm like, great, cool. I want to like, learn how to tell this story in this system. And that's where pretty much 90 percent of our episodes come from. Sometimes you run modules, but I just approach them one step at a time. You pick up the book, you read it. And if it resonates with you, cool. You run with it and you try it out. And in my case, I know a lot of people in the TTRPG space. And I'm like, I bet so and so would be good at X. So, just for example, when putting Castaway together, I was like, this system rules. I love the idea of, like, a TTRPG that's brutal on purpose and is so focused on survival and, like, has you constantly rolling and checking and being aware of, like, your character's physical body. And I was like, who would get a real kick out of being so fucking self aware the entire time as a mechanic? And I'm like, oh, probably the person whose whole bit is talking about characters and stories and inhabiting their full 100 percent self all the time. I'm like, duh, of course Star would be into that.

Star: 7:21

I think the mechanics of Cast Away are really interesting. I Fully came into that game being like I want to die. I want to die so I can haunt all of the other characters This is the only game where there seemed to be a benefit to die Yeah Like a narrative benefit and I was like God I want to do this and then my dice Did not want me to do that. My dice were against me Because they did not fail.

Grant: 7:49

Yeah, listen, this is a months old episode at this point, so I don't mind mild spoilering, but for some reason, Star's character just, like, beast moded that desert island for some reason, just was rolling like gangbusters the whole time, and I was like, well, thank God someone here is gonna definitely live through this.

Star: 8:08

I was so good at living on that island, I was like, maybe this is my spot.

Grant: 8:15

Yeah, I think about your character in particular all the time, I've edited it at this point, it's coming out, at this point, with you and I talking, it's coming out, like, in two weeks, but, like, in the distant past, I'm sure two months from now I'll still be thinking about Star's character, so, like, Listen, I'm plugging my own show and my own interview, but like, listen, that system is a lot of fun, Star is great in it, and I legitimately think about every single person in that cast, a whole bunch, to the point where like, my poison brain is like, that could be a whole campaign, like, we should just do a whole campaign and like, slow down.

Star: 8:49

Grant who are you bringing to the table today?

Grant: 8:52

I was bouncing through a lot of different ideas and because you know I stake my reputation on knowing a lot of systems and yet I came back to a character concept I made very early in my learning how to play TTRPG days and yeah it's a D& D 5e character basic bitch answer I get it especially for who I am but like I really for what this show is I was like I had this character. I made them for a campaign. The campaign never happened. It was the campaign to teach me how to play unconventional D& D. I was given the challenge to make a character that doesn't make sense. Like, mechanically, and learn how to play that character so that you can GM better. And uh, I am giving you my Wizard, Orco, Orco the Magnificent.

Star: 9:39

I'm very intrigued by the challenge that was set before you to make a broken character. Was that the DM's idea?

Grant: 9:47

Yeah, that, that was the DM's idea. It was kind of like a combination idea. So my, my co producer slash younger sister Jenny showed me a lot of the ropes for how to play D& D. And when I was starting to develop the concept for Game Master Monday, I was talking to a whole bunch of other DMs that I knew in real life. And, uh, one of them was like, you should really just make a character that doesn't wOrc. Like the mechanics for them are kind of busted, and you have to find like a narrative way for them to either overcome that, or just roll with it and see what happens. And I love that challenge a lot, and you know, one of D& D's many faults is they do these like racial bonus type things. So I, I was kicking around the idea, like, it'd be fun to take, like, this particular race of character that isn't known for its intelligence or its magical prowess and make them a wizard, kind of like a, like, like a Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer situation, that elf who wants to be a dentist. Uh, this is the orc who wants to be a magician.

Star: 10:47

God, I wish I could remember that elf's name. I love that guy.

Grant: 10:50

Oh, now that you're saying, telling me out loud, it's, uh, oh my gosh. It'll come back to me in 30 minutes and I'll scream it like out of nowhere and you'll be, what are you talking about, ? I feel like it's got like a Greek God vibe to it. Herme, his name is Herme.

Star: 11:04

Herme.

Grant: 11:05

Yes. Her herme. The The misfit elf. This is the direct inspiration for Orco. Star: I imagine then that all of similar thing with their characters? I'll never know. It never happened.

Star: 11:21

You never even got to like session zero or anything?

Grant: 11:24

Nope. We never got that far. It was a very hectic pitch to a DM and two people I knew who played the game. We talked about setting it up. I made the character sheet. And then I never heard from them again. Which, you know, it's how it goes. When you are a person who wants to do fun things with your friends in your 30s, you have to contend with the fact that your friends now have things like jobs, and children, and, uh, mental disorders that they only recently found out about. So, like, no ill will at all, we think it's funny, and it's probably never gonna happen. So that's why I was like, you know what? Orco's probably never gonna exist. He plays a very bit part in an episode of a Game Master Monday miniseries we did. Very early in Game Master Monday, we did a miniseries called Defeating the Dungeon, which is essentially playing Dungeons and Dragons, but the whole party wants to quit adventuring, so they go to rehab. It's my savvy commentary on addiction, folks, if you ever want to hear that in a comedy setting. But there's a scene where I had an NPC on a bus and I panicked and didn't know who they were or what their name was. So Orco appears in that. But apart from that, he has not had a story told.

Star: 12:37

There's a spectrum of approaches. When it comes to building a character and at one end of the spectrum is the min maxer and at the other end of the spectrum, I don't know that there's a name for it. Well, I don't know,

Grant: 12:49

The min minner?

Star: 12:51

The min midder

Grant: 12:55

I've never really came to any character thinking like, Oh man, how can I soup this guy up? I've always wanted to build what they were able to do around. My idea for them in my head. Some people are very much like let the numbers influence the character and I'm kind of like Let the character influence the numbers. So when I'm, when I'm making Orco, there's no way around it. He's going to have a pretty decent strength score. And then by virtue of being a wizard, he should be capable in intelligence. And I have to go out of my way to be like, no, he just wants to be one. It doesn't mean he's good at it.

Star: 13:31

Besides the challenge that was set before you, what else went into the kind of initial spark for this character? Why an Orc? Why a wizard?

Grant: 13:41

I've never played a spellcaster, so that was part of it. A lot of my, my, my proving ground characters were, like, bards and barbarians and rogues, like, the hang of things, so I wanted to, like, really challenge myself that way. Why an orc and why a wizard? I'll, I'll be honest, it sounded funny. It, it was a funny thing to imagine in my head, it's like imagining a Lord of the Rings ass orc with, like, a little pointy Merlin hat and a cape that's too small, like, like an Aladdin vest, that has, like, four buttons on it, but only one goes across his chest, like, it was a funny visual to me. And I just kind of like fish out of water stories. I like stories where like someone so very desperately wants something, but maybe they're not super talented at it, but they can get better through like perseverance. I'm a very big fan of characters who don't have a handle on how powerful they can be yet, so like their early examples of having power are very like chaotic or uncontrolled, or even just flat out whimpering. A lot of my early writing influence, when I was starting to get really into writing scripts, was I've aped a lot of shit from the Powerpuff Girls. So, in a weird kind of way, Orco is the weird cross section between Hermy the Elf and that episode of Powerpuff Girls where Bubble suddenly learns she has ice breath. And she doesn't know what to do with it. I think the shitty wizard trope is fun. I like wizards who aren't good at being wizards. Yeah, yeah. I like wizards whose magic spells aren't helpful.

Star: 15:07

I'm a sucker for the character that doesn't know how strong they are and has to discover that through the course of a campaign. It's a great arc to put into a game.

Grant: 15:17

Mm hmm. I love that kind of stuff. Progression for a character and discovering things about themselves. I also love characters who seem predestined to be one thing and are determined to kick against that.

Star: 15:28

So what was Orco predestined to be?

Grant: 15:31

In my head, Orco comes from like a big family or big village just ingrained in Orc society. Now, you know, Orcs had a bad rep and I wanted to like, you know, get rid of the whole stigma around Orcs. But, you know, I did want it to make it like this is a society where like might makes right. Uh, you are a, a powerful society, maybe they have a whole bunch of strength based careers and jobs and duties, and it's like, they have a toxic masculinity in that society, because they're, you know, why not? Like, if, if you're going to build a society around that, and it's probably going to seep in there at some point. And I just like the idea that Orco fit in. in that society. He definitely, if he wanted to, he could definitely be a rock mover, or a soldier, or a house builder, or the guy who wheels the big livestock around in a cart. And all he has was like from when he was a young kid, he got like a magician's beginner's guide to like elementary tricks and stuff. And he knows all this like abjuration magic. So he knows like Dancing lights is one of his spells, I think he has, and like, a really remedial form of prestidigitation and stuff like that, and he would try to put on like little magic shows in his hometown, and everyone would get mad at him for not being useful, and be like, why aren't you doing this? So just one day, he takes a, you know, D& D equivalent of a bus, and leaves town and wants to go on his own personal adventure so he can learn how to be good at magic. And then he goes into the outside world and realizes, oh shit, everyone's kind of mean to orcs. So, you know, fish out of water in every pond, if you will. He's not a good orc and he's not a good wizard outside of being an orc.

Star: 17:08

What was it about magic, about this book, that so entranced him and made him want to leave and really set off on his own path?

Grant: 17:17

There may be a little bit of my story in this character, a little bit. I grew up in a very religious, I shouldn't say household. My household was religious, but my parents were pretty chill for the most part. But going to church every week and you're kind of a, uh, a flamboyant youth and you like, uh, the theater and expressing your feelings and writing and things like that. When a lot of your contemporaries or your leaders in that church are like, They are lawyers, they are doctors, they own businesses, things of that nature, and I am the kid who is skipping church because he has a rehearsal on Sundays, or things like that. You know, I think there's a piece of that in Orco getting a book of magic and just like, oh shit, this is something that's different, that I've never seen before, and it kind of appeals to this softer, gentler, entertainer side of me. Because that's how I imagine Orco. I'm not imagining him as like a fireball wizard or like a battle wizard or things like that. My session zero notes was, where should we first meet Orco? And it's probably at a children's birthday party. Just straight up, like, like strings out of the sleeves, rabbits out of the hats, dancing lights. Things to amuse children and make adults roll their eyes was how I envisioned Orco the Magnificent presenting himself in this adventure.

Star: 18:33

That is so funny because my last episode was about a character for Quest who was essentially a children's party magician.

Grant: 18:40

It's a fun trope. It is. It's a fun role to play.

Star: 18:44

Mm hmm. Does he like entertaining people and entertaining children?

Grant: 18:49

I dare say it's his calling. I think, I think he loves doing it. I can only speak from my own experience, but the way I imagine it going is like, there's just something really invigorating about, like, entertaining so that people will applaud for you and, like, acknowledge that, like, hey, cool, this is a neat distraction from the rest of every horrible thing going on around here in a society where shit like, uh, mind flayers can exist. Yeah, I would imagine he super loves it. I think if you love something enough to leave your hometown to do it, then you better like it a lot.

Star: 19:22

Yeah. Well, then what was the transition point from being a children's party magician to going off and becoming an adventurer?

Grant: 19:30

I would love to know, but in my own head, I would imagine that the prospect of improving his abilities would be really tantalizing because, you know, I think a lot of entertainers especially latch on to the idea of like, who can I study to get better at my craft? And if I get better at my craft, what new heights can I ascend to? Being a children's party magician is great, but maybe I can ascend the ranks to be more of a, you know, maybe a more, a more bardic magician who entertains, uh, the upper echelons of society and has a seat at that table, maybe as an ability to influence. Or heck, maybe he goes on to become a hero. I think there's a lot of altruism in the idea behind Orco. There's a big bright eyed, bushy tailed, first day in the big city, singing the big opening musical number to Hairspray type situation. So, I think it would just be the prospect of improving and getting a better station would be really appealing to him.

Star: 20:28

Hmm, yeah, so you would say that's his primary motivation then, is improving his skills?

Grant: 20:33

Mm hmm. Yeah, make other people happy, sharpen your skill set, and you know, if, if in my head he comes from an orc society where abilities are meant to be put to good use, maybe he wants to find a good use for the abilities he actually wants to harness. Whether that's healthy or not, up to y'all, but that, that could be in there.

Star: 20:50

Yeah. Does Orco feel the need to be useful? Is his self esteem predicated on that?

Grant: 20:57

Ooh, yeah, I think it does. I think it is, for sure. For sure. And, you know, this is very much so. I think anyone who grew up in an environment where they don't feel like they fit in, this could be an American thing in general. This doesn't have to be exclusive to, like, religion or such, but there's such, like, a, a, a hustle culture, uh, be productive culture and here in the States, especially and I I think I mean hell we're sitting here as two hobbyists who just enjoy doing this and we're making content, you know, so like maybe a little bit, but I definitely think so. I think in my head, if his parents and society were like, we are built this way so we can do this thing. In his head, it's like, maybe I can do this thing and thus I'll be able to be useful. And if I could pull him to the side, like, Hey man, you can just do magic for fun. You can just enjoy doing that and make that like, you want that to be your career, that's cool. But it doesn't have to be.

Star: 21:55

So what is his relationship like with his family back home? Did he leave on good terms or was it more acrimonious?

Grant: 22:01

I've always imagined it like kind of somewhere in between parents who weren't supportive per se but we're standing in the way you know like we don't understand this and we can't really stand behind you doing it but you know we're not gonna stop you or anything and I've always imagined like if he was doing magic and orc society I imagined a lot of ridicule for doing so. Again very Herme the elf very Rudolph the red nose reindeer I would imagine he would leave on relatively good terms his parents are like well you gotta do what you gotta do I guess. And, clearly, you're not doing what you need to do here, so maybe it is time for you to leave the village society I don't know what orcs have. The place we all are at. Yeah. And, you know, go off and do your own thing and find your own truth and happiness and stuff. And so he does, and I'm sure the orc society, like, cool, one less person who wasn't helping us out of town.

Star: 22:58

That's a little cold.

Grant: 23:00

You know, uh, sometimes the warmest people grow up in cold environments.

Star: 23:05

Central to this character is this concept of going against a stereotype. And obviously orcs are one of the worst D& D races in terms of having stereotypes around the race. It's been improved, but the way it was originally written was, awful. It comes from some very, I won't say intentionally racist, but maybe unintentionally racist tropes. I don't, I don't think Tolkien was trying to be racist. I think probably he was racist because he grew up in a society and didn't really think about that stuff but

Grant: 23:42

Yeah, there's certain authors where you can be like, that is clearly a side effect of the, the time he was growing up in, nobody was fucking talking about it. You know, like no one was challenging each other on that shit. It was ingrained into society, which sucks. And we can look back on that in hindsight, but that was a bad thing that we, everyone did in Western society. And we also have the deliberate choice now to improve upon those things while acknowledging where they came from. Like, okay, let's, let's fix this. Like this, this wasn't cool to do. And if we recognize that we can fix it.

Star: 24:16

Right, exactly. So knowing that orcs come from some pretty problematic, troubling roots, it sounds like if you were to play this character, you want in game to confront some of these stereotypes, are you hoping that this character would experience discrimination because they're an orc or because of the combination of being an orc and being a wizard?

Grant: 24:37

Ooh, ooh. Would I hope they'd be discriminated against? It's a loaded question, and I like it. Narratively. Now I'm. When I, when I, when I GM, I'm not a big fan of using racism as a point of conflict. I'm kind of in the ballpark when I GM with the idea of absurdist acceptism, where society has gotten to a point where everything consensual and everything like that is, is basically chill. You know, like everyone acknowledges the differences. No one is attacking anybody over things. Things like race, gender, sexuality, things of that nature, just because, like, A, like, I think it's cool to do escapism in an absurdist setting where everything flies, because it's kind of funny when, like, everything is fine, to just acknowledge that everything is fine, or hell, even not acknowledge that everything is fine, like, it's just a given that anyone can be anything for any reason, and that's not going to garner a horrific reaction. So like, as a storyteller, no, I don't like using discrimination as a plot point in general. Since Orco was one of my first character concepts I ever came up with, I kind of had a hard time separating fantasy racial discrimination from the fantasy genre. Cause it's in, like, every, like, major fantasy piece. It's in, it's in Lord of the Rings, it's in Harry Potter, it's in Dungeons and Dragons, it's in the Chronicles of Narnia, the Guardians of Ga'hoole has it, like, there's, like, lesser forms of owls in the Guardians of Ga'hoole, so it's like, there's, like, no place is safe in fantasy settings. So maybe subconsciously in my brain, I was like, yeah, he's gonna be prejudiced against in his own society, and then he leaves, and he's still an orc, which is a monster race in D& D still, you can be a player character orc, or a monster character orc, and, you know, that's going to garner looks and side eyes, I mean, I've been playing a lot of Baldur's Gate lately, and it feels like no matter what race you play, someone fucking hates you in that game.

Star: 26:36

Yeah

Grant: 26:37

I've been doing a drow run, oof.

Star: 26:41

Yeah, I I love Baldur's Gate, but that would probably be my point of critique is some of those fantasy racism elements. Yeah, especially against the goblins.

Grant: 26:51

Oh my gosh. Don't get me started. The mission one like like you have you have to wipe out this entire city of goblins. Like do I though? Have to?

Star: 27:01

Yeah, I know I know it's very classic D& D like you fight goblins I think that Baldur's Gate is a lot more progressive in other areas, but that's you know, the source material

Grant: 27:12

Yeah

Star: 27:13

But I would I do want to acknowledge

Grant: 27:15

It's why I hesitated picking this character. But like yeah, I wanted to acknowledge that like Yeah, this game, it's, it's baked into the pie, like, it's hard to avoid it unless you're homebrewing and telling your own story. But if you're playing in the world of Dungeons and Dragons, do I want Orco to be, to have people be mean to him? No, that's my sweet boy, look at him, he just wants to do magic tricks. But, like, it would probably serve the story to overcome some kind of societal expectation, you know?

Star: 27:42

Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to be based on the fact that he's an orc even just he doesn't have to be an orc to be coming from a village where doing magic is invalued.

Grant: 27:51

It's kind of funny just to be like, you know, shame for just being a shit wizard. Like you only know really like performative spells, man. Like what happens if the city is under attack? And it's like, well, I can do this. And it's like a little glowing orb in his hand.

Star: 28:06

I guess there's also this kind of meta level commentary that you can do at the table where your battle against these kind of racist stereotypes is happening above the table and not necessarily within the game as well.

Grant: 28:19

Yeah, absolutely. And absolutely my place to do so as a straight white guy fully, you know, but I like characters who go against what society stereotypes them as I I've always enjoyed stories like that. You know, there's good ones and bad ones for sure, depending on intents and execution and stuff, but I married to a person who showed me Lord of the Rings for the first time in earnest, and she was like, my favorite characters are the orcs, and I was like, oh, why, aren't they the bad guys, and she was like, they're so cute, and I was like, oh. I just saw a soft spot for Orcs. Now, you know.

Torchlit Tavern: 29:25

does a 15 hit. Nan, why did you kidnap me and take me to the Feywild? Kidnap is a strong word. In there, it was just going to duck and dive into the robot's crotch. And use combat wild shape to change into a rat as opponent section. Quick, I'm being chased. What? Standing before you is a tiefling woman. I pull my weapon and put my back to this group, ready to face whatever's following me. Hey everybody, it's Jamison Oxford, the dungeon master for Torchlit Tavern, a real play 5th edition Dungeons Dragons podcast focused on narrative driven storytelling. You just heard some snippets from our current campaign, Black Powder. Come on down to TorchlitTavern. com to check us out, or type in Torchlit Tavern into any of your podcast streaming apps. Come see what you're missing. Tell good stories.

Star: 30:36

You talked about being looked down upon as a wizard because not having that combat utility, having spells that aren't necessarily appropriate for combat situations for fighting, which to me, I'm looking at your backstory and looking at the character concept and is like, This is not a fighter. This is not a person who's been in combat. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to know, like you mentioned, fireball. I mean, they're probably not high enough level for that, but

Grant: 31:05

No, no, probably not. I think Orco's level three is what we, is what they designed him to be. But I think you've been fireball like what, five or some shit?

Star: 31:12

Yeah, I think it's level five. I think it's a third level spell.

Grant: 31:15

That would check out. Yeah.

Star: 31:17

Yeah. So what was the motif that you chose for, for your spells? What were you thinking about? Because it sounds like you were very intentional about which spells you chose.

Grant: 31:25

Oh, yes. So, the motif was fully, 100%, going through the wizard's spell list and finding anything that, to me, read, party trick. Like, a cool thing you could do at a bar, at a birthday party. Ah, man, I keep going back to Baldur's Gate 3, and this is like, Not really a spoiler, but like, it happens in Act 3. Do you know, like, in the actual city, like, in front of that big magic store, where you just have those three people conjuring, like, magical looking animals in front of, like, an oohing and aahing crowd? Stuff like that. Mm hmm. Uh, I keep going back to Dancing Lights, because I read Dancing Lights the first time, and that is so goddamn funny. To have as a spell. Yeah. Because it's literally just like, it's D& D Cocomelon, it's just like, I can make these bright lights appear and distract somebody with them. So stuff like that. If I'm remembering right, I think the wizard's school for it is abjuration, and it's all stuff like that, it's all diversion, distraction, distraction, and it's all stuff like that, it's all diversion, distraction, Hypnotism, things like that, and like, things you would see a magician do on stage, was my motif.

Star: 32:35

Yeah. I actually did pretty much the exact same thing with the character I'm playing right now.

Grant: 32:40

It's so funny. It's so funny.

Star: 32:43

It's just like, give me anything that reads magician. Yes. Because the character is based on a magician's rabbit, so it's like, what if the rabbit became the sorcerer?

Grant: 32:54

That's great. I love that. I super love that kind of stuff. You know, I have like a lot of cultural touchstones when I'm thinking of characters, like Hermey was the big one of course, but I also think of like Job from Arrested Development. I like to imagine Orco standing with a sign that says, we demand to be taken seriously, which is just a funny visual to me. You know, I like any, any TV show that has a magician that's, like, bombing on stage as the trick stops working. Uh, I think there's, like, a Looney Tunes sketch about it, when, like, Elmer Fudd's trying to do magic and, and Bugs is not cooperating. It's, like, stuff like that. Like, anything that just screamed, that would be funny for a, a wizard to know, and only that. Funny you're still because wizards have to study it. So it's not like he was born with like a weaker magical hand Like he was a sorcerer like some shitty God gave him powers. It's just him reading like party books to learn how to do these things.

Star: 33:49

You mentioned earlier that you thought maybe there was some toxic masculinity in the Society that he came from is that something that you wanted to tackle with this character? Is that more just kind of a background thing?

Grant: 34:03

Both. I think in, like, a lot of male characters I make, I'm always wanting to push against that kind of stuff. I was a teenager in the, in the 2000s, when Spike TV was invented. Oh god. Talks of masculinity was at an all time high when I was a kid. Not an all time high, World War two happened, but yeah.

Star: 34:22

Oh yeah, I remember Girls Gone Wild and The Man Show. Yeah. It was a terrible time.

Grant: 34:27

Uh huh, jackass to a certain extent.

Star: 34:29

Kinda like jackass, but

Grant: 34:32

I do too, and it's because the guys are, like, good, you know?

Star: 34:36

I like it when they get really ridiculous, the very odd ones like this.

Grant: 34:40

Yes. Yeah. Shows like that are Especially endearing when you know that people like Johnny Knoxville and, and the rest of their ilk are like, behind the scenes and on camera, like, refusing to be like bad people. So, like, I always call them, like, those are rowdy boys! Like, we like, we like a good rowdy boy, we don't like a toxic boy. We, we like the Steve O's and the Johnny Knoxville's, we don't like all the rest of the,

Star: 35:07

Yeah

Grant: 35:07

The Bam Margeras of the world.

Star: 35:09

Yeah, exactly.

Grant: 35:10

But, you know, I think toxic masculinity is something I'm constantly grappling with in general. I think it's gotten better, by and large, but I could also be 32 and not in high school anymore, so what do I know? But yeah, it was something I wanted him to, maybe not so much to grapple with, I don't like the idea of Orco, like, dealing with, like, this toxicity within himself, maybe it pops up, I don't know, but in my head I was imagining, like, this is just a guy who was, for lack of a better phrase, built different, and he didn't like what he was seeing, didn't like how he was being treated, didn't like the jobs available to him, and just wanted to do this one thing, so he, he got out of that. So I imagine, like, for the people, you know, myself included, who grew up seeing a lot of, like, toxic males in their life, just doing things because of their gender, because it's supposed to be that way, or just, like, being awful to women and minorities and things like that, there is that desire to be like, I want to do something completely different that doesn't tie me to this mindset at all. So, you know, there's a piece of that in Orco, for sure.

Star: 36:12

Is he questioning his gender at all? Is he presenting in a different way than the traditional kind of gender expression of masculinity?

Grant: 36:22

The more I talk about Orco, the more I see my own answers. And this is kind of funny. I'm going to say no. Orco is a he him. He's comfortable in that. He's cool with it. And just the same. You know, I keep pulling back to the fact that I grew up religious and I grew up with more non traditionally masculine hobbies and interests. A lot of my friends in high school, despite being very active in my church, Or women, queer, gender non conforming, a whole bunch of stuff. I was raised by a bunch of queer kids in high school, basically. And that rubbed off on me. And naturally, when you befriend people in that circle, and they start asking questions of themselves, like, am I X, am I Y, am I Z? You could do it for yourself, so it would be, you know, for those out there, it's important to just every now and again. Quick gender check, go into your own brain, be like, Hey, we're currently doing the whole he, him thing, we're still Gucci with that. I feel like everyone who's in progressive circles or knows queer people will at some point ask themselves. Am I gay? Am I trans? Am I something else? Yadda yadda. Been there, done that, came back with, turns out the factory settings were correct at entry, I am in fact straight, I am in fact a male, I just happen to have hobbies that for some reason have become gendered.

Star: 37:37

Yeah.

Grant: 37:38

So, I think that's where Orco's at. He likes a hobby that is not traditionally assigned to him, and any questions he may have had about what that means for his identity, he probably shook it off as like, I can just like this, and also be what I am.

Star: 37:52

Is Orco straight?

Grant: 37:53

I, you know, I'm gonna say this, I've never played a straight character. I've never played, like, any of my PCs or NPCs have been 100 percent something. So, I would say it would be up to the Dungeon Master. If he was going to incorporate something with sexuality or whatever. I don't think Orco would have the door closed on any option. I think it is more interesting from a character standpoint to say yes than it is to say no. So if there was like, I don't know, if a dungeon master dangles an attractive NPC of the same gender and the wheels turn, sure, go for it, Orco, you do you, buddy. Don't let me stand in your way just because I don't know what's going on. So, I don't think so. I don't really assign a sexuality to my PCs a whole lot of the time, so, I guess in that ballpark, he'd be like in the pan conversation, but I also have not thought about him being sexual at all, so maybe he isn't, I don't know. We'll see where the story takes us. I'm not a closed the door type.

Star: 38:49

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think a lot of people have that approach to it. I mean, personally, unless I have something in my backstory, like, Oh, she has this girlfriend that she's trying to get back to or something like that.

Grant: 39:00

Yeah, I love stuff like that. And I think more people should do the representation they want to see in the world. And since my brain is very much to like do the absurdist acceptism thing, it's just more fun for him to be into everyone.

Star: 39:12

So you talk a lot about being alone in a society that doesn't hold the same values as yours and rebelling and striving against these kinds of worlds, these kinds of ideas. Do you consider yourself rebellious in your life?

Grant: 39:27

Uh huh. Yeah, yeah, I do. I was kind of a scamp. I'll be honest. Well, like, yeah, I keep alluding to this mysterious religion I grew up in. I grew up Mormon, just to dispel the mystery around it, and That is a very involved religion to be part of. It's three hours of church on Sundays. It's activities on Wednesdays. It is a day to day thing. To their credit, it requires a lot of study, uh, aka indoctrination. I was, I was in it, in it. I wasn't just like, you know, there's like an expression in Mormon circles called Jack Mormon, where you have been baptized into the church, but you're not really doing much of anything with it and just living a regular life, but still calling yourself Mormon. I wasn't that. I did the whole shebang, the white shirt and tie mission, I held leadership roles, I was a teacher in that church, I baptized people, I was doing the damn thing, but I was always, everyone who'd ever been in the church with me knew that I was very off the beaten path with stuff. And I've always been more, at least, liberal. At least liberal. Nowadays, I'm, like, so far left on falling off the political spectrum entirely, I'm, like, in borderline Les Mis politics territory at this point. But, you know, I've always leaned a little to the left, because I kind of figured that was the whole point of, like, the Jesus guy, you know? Like, kind of seems like the guy who says, love one another, wouldn't be into the whole right wing politics stuff. Like, a lot of my religious contemporaries were into, so that was kinda like, my angle, I was like, I'm different because I'm doing it right, and then, like, you go through life long enough, and you're like, oh, I'm actually doing this religion wrong because the religion is wrong. I've always felt a little rebellious. I was very into skirting around. the church to do things that made me happy. I was a big fan of skipping church on Sundays to do plays. A lot of my, like the, the, the first people I dated for a long time were members of the church. I mentioned earlier, all of my friends were queer growing up, like all the ones I was closest to. And that's still the case in my, my today life. I prefer female friends. I prefer queer friends, the people we have on Game Master Monday, predominantly queer and female and people of color. So just this, this always been where I've been happier and that didn't really jive with the Mormon church. So, yeah, I, you know, by worldly standards, I was probably a pretty regular kid, but by Mormon standards, I was going nuts.

Star: 41:52

Did you encounter, like, pushback or judgment for, for skipping church, for example, for being into those things?

Grant: 41:59

Oh, all the time. I learned when I was an adult, after I'd left the church, one of my, one of my good friends of the church with me at the time was like, I've never told you this, but when we were in high school, especially like around 16 or 17, there would be like actual meetings held about you, where they would be like. Is Grant okay? Like, is Grant gay? Like, what's going on with him? Like, why does he want to do musical theater instead of coming to church? And my only rebuttal is, like, because it's fucking fun! It's more fun to be there, I don't know! Mm hmm! I mean, I'm Snoopy in Snoopy the Musical, I'm not going to church! Ha ha ha ha ha ha! What the fuck are you talking about? Ha ha ha ha ha ha! I spent a lot of my youth in that church being misunderstood. And that can create its own problems, because when you know in your head that you're a straight guy, but everyone keeps saying, is he gay in a bad way, it almost starts to make you think being gay is bad. Yeah. And that's something you have to unlearn later.

Star: 42:52

Yeah, definitely.

Grant: 42:53

So even with like the best intentions. Being like, oh, but my friends are gay, but no, I'm not, dude, I'm definitely not. It's a bad thing to be, you know, like, it's a thing you have to overcome.

Star: 43:02

Yeah, I went, I went to Catholic school, uh, Catholic high school.

Grant: 43:06

Oh, so you definitely get it.

Star: 43:07

And one of my best friends, for some reason, the rumor went around that she was gay. And I was like, tempted, I think part of, like, for me at the time, the defense was, no, she's not, it's okay if she is, of course, this is the 90s, I'll just say things were very different then, things are also very different in Catholic schools, but yeah, you kind of default to the like, no, no, no, I'm not gay, no, they're not gay, when it's like, No, it should be like why does it matter?

Grant: 43:39

Yeah, it should be a thing that's celebrated. It's like, you know, it takes real like actual unlearning and reprogramming to get your brain to a place where instead of saying no, they're not or no I'm not to instead say well good for them. Oh, I'm glad they found out.

Star: 43:56

Yeah.

Grant: 43:56

You know?

Star: 43:57

Did you have a singular moment, like Orco, picking up the spell book that changed your mind, made you set off on a different path, or was it more of a gradual progression?

Grant: 44:07

I do, I do. Funny you should ask. I found theater in 8th grade, so I was 13 years old, and I did My English teacher at the time wanted to do a project where part of the class would have to write an essay about this play we were reading for the class. However, instead, if you wanted to, like five of us, I think four or five of us, could just actually learn the parts, rehearse it, and perform the play. And that would be our essay instead, and because I love attention, Star, I love attention, I wanna do that. So, I was quote unquote cast in a play called The Effects of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds.

Star: 44:54

Oh, I know that one. Yeah.

Grant: 44:57

Middle school staple, I think. It's a really cool play about shitty step parents. Uh, and Not enough girls wanted to do it because they're 13 year olds, like, don't fucking look at them. So, like, it was mostly just like a bunch of, like, class clown guys like myself and, like, you know, like, a couple of girls who wanted to do it. So she was like, well, there's three girl parts and two guy parts and three guys picked. So she looks at all of us, and I was like, do any of you just want to play like one of the female parts? And I had long hair at the time, so I was like, yeah, of course. Sounds funny. I'll do anything for a bit. So I played the stepmother in this long ass play title. And that just like, clicked for me. I was like, this is the thing that I've been wanting to do the whole time. I want to perform. So I do that throughout high school, I go to college for it, I major in it. And because you're doing theater, you meet so many different people from so many different walks of life, different cultures, genders, sexualities, experiences, wealth levels, and that really just gave me a taste on a broader spectrum of all that humanity can be, and it just made me even angrier at the fact that people Choose to be close minded about other people's happiness. So, yeah, I would say my magic book was The Effects of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds. And that's when I was like, I want to, you know, I, I grew up in Las Vegas. I still live here. But I was like, I need to get out of my hometown, go somewhere completely different, study this thing where it's the main thing I'm doing and getting good at it. And then we'll see where life takes me. I didn't realize this was happening in Orco until you asked me, by the way, so thank you.

Star: 46:35

This is what I'm here for. This is why I have this podcast is to get people to see things in their characters that they will see in themselves suddenly. Funny how that happens.

Grant: 46:45

Go figure. Here I thought my funny little Orc magician would just be like a cool feel good episode and now here I am talking about religious trauma and high school theater.

Star: 46:54

Hey, you know, Religious trauma in high school theater is my feel good. So, you know,

Grant: 47:01

Same, who am I kidding?

Star: 47:03

I'm kind of surprised, actually, that you said more boys than girls wanted to participate in acting because my experience has been opposite. It's always been more girls into it.

Grant: 47:15

Every experience since then. Yes, always. It's such a bizarre industry, the theater, because it's dominated by women, like there's so many more women who are interested in doing that than there are men. And yet all the parts are written for dudes. Yeah. Listen, for a person who was like, one of four guys in his college theatre program, great, I always got cast in something. But I had so many talented friends who just had to be like, better luck next time, because there weren't enough parts, and I've never understood that. Yeah, so that is also a problem we've tried to fix on Game Master Monday, because like I said, we probably mostly just have women or just flat out non strictly male identifying folks on the show.

Star: 47:57

Yeah, I remember in high school, the Catholic school I went to was an all girls school. And so every time we did a play, it had to be an all woman cast.

Grant: 48:07

Not a lot of options.

Star: 48:08

Not a lot of options. It was always like, what are we going to find this time? I remember we did Steel Magnolias.

Grant: 48:15

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Star: 48:15

We did a lot of pretty obscure stuff because there just wasn't a lot to choose from. It was very eye opening for me as a teenager to see that and go like, Oh, wait, yeah. Where are all the female main characters? And then looking at literature, I was reading and being like, Hey, wait a second.

Grant: 48:32

Where are the women at?

Star: 48:33

Yeah, exactly.

Grant: 48:34

I, I remember, I think every high school or even college, but I think mostly high school will at some point do a little play called The Female Odd Couple, which is just Neil Simon's The Odd Couple, but they flip the genders.

Star: 48:47

We did that. Yep.

Grant: 48:49

It's like a rite of passage, like, you know, that you're in a theater high school when we do the female odd couple.

Star: 48:55

It's so funny. I completely forgot about that. Completely forgot about the female odd couple. You're just bringing back my, my high school right now. It's just my high school memories.

Grant: 49:05

Welcome back. I have a very peaked in high school energy to me.

Star: 49:13

So we know Orco is bad at being a wizard. Is he good at anything?

Grant: 49:17

Oh, that's a great question. I think he's kind. I think Orco is as good at being friendly. This is just one of those things where I'm like, yeah, if he's leaving his societies, he doesn't want to do this thing. And he's not good at magic yet. Like I keep referencing things that I was told in theater training, but like one of the things that's always stuck with me and keep in mind, this is in the 2000s. So he wasn't enjoying the Renaissance he has today. But I had an acting teacher who said that the most important thing you can be, you know, when you're not performing is a kind person. She's like, Keanu Reeves is not a good actor, like he doesn't do a good job in any movie he's in, he's stiff, when he does Shakespeare it sounds like he's reading a cue card, like he's not even that funny, but Keanu Reeves He's a very kind person and makes friends and is a delight to work with, so of course he's going to keep showing up in movies. More important than being a good actor, you have to be a good person. And that's been a guiding philosophy for me for like half of my life at this point now. So I'm like, even if I'm not the best performer in the world, even if I'm not a good writer, I can be kind, supportive, friendly. And people will gravitate to that more than if I'm a brilliant fuckin artist. And I think that would be the guiding philosophy for Orco, a very water of a duck's back guy, like, yeah, I'm not a great magician, but I can be a good person, uh, I can make friends with the right people. I can be a source of respite for this party who's clearly trying to overcome whatever that enemy would have been. Again, I'll never know. But I think that would be his main driver. And like, you know, just by default, I think he would be physically built. So he's probably good at, like, physical things, but prefers not to.

Star: 50:57

Mm hmm. What are his flaws?

Grant: 50:58

Oh, he's probably very gullible. I think that's the double edged sword of being kind. Sometimes you can be Manipulated and tricked, and yeah, low intelligence character, so, not a bright man, not an observant man. Yeah, I think it was via a lot of the stuff that comes with the territory of just trying to be everyone's friend, and be real specific mechanically, his flaw is magic. He's not good at it. He probably shouldn't be a wizard, that's why he's a wizard. But you know, on a very, um, personal level, I was going to play him as like, a well meaning dope. And, well, meaning dopes are trickable and gullible and kind of a burden on their party when they're not firing on all cylinders, some stuff like that.

Star: 51:44

Yeah. So you talked a little bit about what you imagined playing him as, as being this, this kind of dope. Does he have any other quirks that you imagined you'd be bringing into your characterization?

Grant: 51:55

See, now I'm thinking about it. Because I hadn't gotten to the part where I was actually playing him. He has a voice. Whether I can do the voice or not is a whole other conversation. I kind of have this very default goofy voice that sometimes I'll fall into. It's like a hint of Kermit the Frog, not from being totally real. It's like a thing I do in the back of my throat and I kind of like tuck my esophagus back. I was like, ah, this is the kind of voice I've been thinking for him. It's hard to talk like that for a long time, so it kind of fades in and out. Physical course, I hadn't quite. Nailed down yet, but I would imagine he would just be, like, very fascinated by, like, everything in society, very much so, like, stop at every rose kind of guy, would be very big on, like, talking about emotions in a very literal way with people, because he didn't do that ever, and he's just like, what do I do with this feeling? You seem to be doing this, why? I like characters who are new to exploring emotions, so probably stuff like that, if I had to have an answer.

Star: 52:50

You talked a little bit about his appearance earlier, but do you want to describe him for us?

Grant: 52:56

Yeah, uh, there's a lot of, like, very traditional orc imagery I would have in my mind, so we're talking big dude, seven, eight feet tall, jacked. I was very big on him having ill fitting clothes. Like, he purchased clothes from, like, an actual, like, like, at the back of a magazine, like, order this now to get your official wizard set, and it was clearly for children.

Star: 53:17

Oh, that's adorable.

Grant: 53:18

It's like a little cape and, like, a little magician's vest and stuff. Kind of an olive green, is what I'm picturing. Like, you know, the classic underbite with the fangs. Looks like he was born to hold a club, but he doesn't. He holds a quarterstaff. Cause he's a wizard. I did wanna, like, so, like, I know, like, orcs don't normally get, like, luscious hair or anything, and I don't wanna, like, go too off the beaten path here, but I would imagine he would have nicer hair than most orcs have, you know? Like, let's say he takes care of it, or he learned some kind of spell that makes your hair shiny, and he, like, actually wears it down in an inconvenient way, so, like, maybe he's got, like, shoulder length, long, black hair. And all the other orcs are like, get that shit in a bun or shave it. And he's like, no. Again, tying to my own childhood and all of my church leaders were like, when are you going to cut your hair? And I was like, every time you ask me, I'm going to grow it longer.

Star: 54:11

Do you think he's vain about his appearance?

Grant: 54:13

Maybe a little bit. Yeah, probably. I bet he thinks he looks great, and I think that would be part of the comedy of him. Very, uh, The Emperor Has No Clothes. I think he's so pumped about his tiny little wizard outfit, and he looks like a real wizard now, and he just looks silly. Enough vanity to, like, make sure his hair is, like, taken care of, because orcs don't take care of their hair, I guess. Yeah, that's a weird stereotype, but trying to, like, remove, like, any racial bullshit from it, and I was like, if I'm just making a society where their whole thing is be industrious I doubt physical appearance would be important to them.

Star: 54:45

Does Orco think he's a good wizard?

Grant: 54:48

Yes, definitely yes. I mentioned earlier that part of the inspiration for him is Job from Arrested Development, and Job absolutely thinks he's a great magician until someone tells him otherwise. I think it would just take someone being honest with him to be like, Hey man, this isn't great what you're doing. And then he might think about it and be sad about it and like, get all up in his feelings and say, Ah, that isn't like the one thing. I want to do when I'm bad at it, but I think at the point when the adventure would start, I think he thinks he's great. I think he's killing it.

Star: 55:18

That breaks my heart a little bit, this poor, poor sweet boy.

Grant: 55:22

The poor dumb bastard.

Star: 55:24

This realization that, uh, he's not what he thinks he is, that makes me a little sad. I mean, it's great drama. It is. Definitely do it.

Grant: 55:34

You know? Yeah. Like, please do it, but just know you're killing me.

Star: 55:38

Hurt him, because it's better for the game, but

Grant: 55:43

So you know I'm dying inside.

Star: 55:45

Yeah, exactly.

Grant: 55:47

I think when anyone is, like, making art, a part of it is, like, you have to, like, gaslight yourself quite a bit at first to hype yourself up into thinking you're good. But I think everyone, no matter how good they say they are, or even believe they are, there's always doubt sitting in the back. Whenever it comes to the front, it's all about how you react to it. So I think, deep down, Orco has this little piece of imposter syndrome hovering back there, tickling the back of his brain. But, you know, outward appearance, it's like, no, I am a good magician, I know I'm a good magician, I've been practicing for a long time. I'm out in the world, I'm getting gigs. Like, that's what a good magician does. And if anyone's like, you suck at this, a part of him knows they're right, so he's gonna get mad about that. Very defensive.

Star: 56:31

Does he have a temper?

Grant: 56:32

You know, I'm trying not to go into orc stereotypes, but maybe a little bit. I would imagine it's a piece of him he doesn't like. Oh gosh, I'm really getting close to home here, but yeah, probably.

Star: 56:42

Orco, what's the best compliment you've ever received?

Grant: 56:47

The best compliment that I've ever received would probably be from this little human child. One of my very first Magic gigs. I'll be honest, I wasn't on my A game that day. I had forgotten. The, the words I needed to say to do Prestidigitation, which is like one of the easiest wizard spells. I could not get it for the life of me and I didn't, I wasn't doing my best that day. And I got paid. They said, thank you. Everyone was nice about it. No one really talked to me afterwards, but this one little kid went back to their parents And was like, that magician was so much fun, can we have them next time? And it wasn't said to me, I just heard it, and that's been keeping me going. Now I never mess up Prestidigitation, I can promise you that! But that, that, it's the compliments that you hear in passing that mean the world to people like me.

Star: 57:41

That's adorable. I love that. Thanks. Grant, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing Orco with me and my listeners.

Grant: 57:52

Thank you for letting me bring out Orco, the goofy orc magician who had a lot of shades of my own backstory in it that I did not know.

Star: 58:00

Is there anything you'd like to plug, anything you want to talk about, any projects?

Grant: 58:04

Sure, I'd love to. Uh, like you mentioned at the top, uh, I am the Game Master, um, of Game Master Monday. By the time this podcast goes up, I'm assuming we are either in the middle of or beginning our new mini series called Bunnies and Burrows. If you like religious drama, it's full of it. Uh, uh, a lot, hmm. But with rabbits, it's fun. And this, we got a whole bunch of cool plans coming up this summer. I'm launching maybe something cool and live streaming here coming up soon. And if you want to hear other cool project that I have the honor to write and do, I was also the guide for Bella's Comment, which is a completely different podcast. It's 12 episodes long. It wrapped up last year. Go check that out. It's one of the, one of the, Great joys of my life is making that show. So, uh, I'm around everywhere. You can find us on Twitter, threads, Instagram, blue sky, um, the search game master Monday will pop up.

Star: 59:03

For my recommendation this episode, I'd like to introduce you to a podcast called Why We Roll. If you want to nerd out on indie TTRPG design and, or are a game designer, this is the podcast for you. I got turned on to the pod by my friend Wes Ascolese, who recently guested on an episode talking about his game, No Nazis in Valhalla. Give it a listen. I also featured Torchlit Tavern, a D& D actual play podcast set in the homebrew world of Obscuria. where unlikely heroes find themselves at the center of political intrigue and potential global catastrophe. I started a newsletter. If you'd like to get a behind the scenes peek at the podcast, follow my other projects like my current all woman actual play and be notified when a new episode drops. You can find the signup form in the show notes or on my website. Please share the podcast with a friend. Word of mouth is the best way to find new listeners. Your recommendations help me immensely. Thank you to all my listeners spreading the word. I'm so grateful. You can find me on Tik TOK at star mama C. Or on threads, blue sky, Instagram, and Facebook as characters without stories. You can also listen on YouTube at characters without stories or follow the link in the description. My submissions are currently full. I'll announce on the podcast when I'll be accepting more submissions. So keep your ears open. Thanks for listening and may all your characters find their stories.