The Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast
The Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast
Beyond Plantations: Getting to Know Louisiana’s River Road
Mary Ann Sternberg has spent twenty years challenging the idea that the River Road between Baton Rouge and New Orleans is nothing more than rows of noxious chemical plants interspersed with 19th century plantation houses, so in this episode, we dig into its past and present. Mary Ann begins by orienting us to the geography of the River Road and the region’s indigenous inhabitants. She describes the arrival of European settlers, which included an influx of Germans in the early 1700s. We talk about the role of the Mississippi River in the daily lives of people along the River Road and the development of early agriculture. She talks about the Slave Revolt of 1811 (also called the German Coast Uprising) and where visitors can learn more about that tragic event, as well as which plantations best incorporate the history of enslaved people into the stories they tell. We touch on the history of Canary Islanders and Cajuns who settled in the region, as well as the Jewish community in Donaldsonville. She describes the transition from agriculture to heavy industry, then we finish with a few tips about visiting the River Road.
That's what I was trying to do. I was trying very hard to get people to see how much more was out there than was obvious, because most of it isn't obvious, and I was hoping that by making people see how much history and culture was still out there that they wouldn't regard it as just Cancer Alley or Plantation Parade. And I'm not sure that I was highly successful, but I spent over 20 years attempting to do this, and I enjoyed every minute of it.
Dean Klinkenberg:Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler podcast. I'm Dean Klinkenberg, and I've been exploring the deep history and rich culture of the people and places along America's greatest river, the Mississippi, since 2007. Join me as I go deep into the characters and places along the river, and occasionally wander into other stories from the Midwest and other rivers. Read the episode show notes and get more information on the Mississippi at MississippiValleyTraveler.com. Let's get going. Welcome to Episode 70 of the Mississippi Valley Traveler podcast. Well, this will be the final episode of 2025. I'm taking a break for the rest of the year, and we'll see what next year has to offer. If you're like me, you have probably driven some of the River Road between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, and maybe you even were one of those folks who sort of hurried to get down to New Orleans and get through that industrial corridor as quickly as possible. Maybe you stopped at a plantation for a quick tour, and that's probably about all you really thought about that area. Well, Mary Ann Sternberg has spent 20 plus years challenging the idea that the River Road between Baton Rouge and New Orleans is nothing more than rows of noxious chemical plants interspersed with those 19th century plantation houses. So in this episode, we dig deep into the past and present of that stretch. Mary Ann begins by giving us a general orientation to the geography of the River Road. What part of the Mississippi are we talking about. And describes the region's indigenous inhabitants. We then get into talking about some of the early Europeans who settled along the river there, including an influx of Germans in the early 1700s. We talk about the role of the Mississippi River in their daily lives, how they adapted to life along the river, how it was central to their movements from place to place, and a little bit about what agricultural products were key in the early development of that corridor. We talked about the slave revolt of 1811 which far too few people know anything about, and offer some ideas on where people can learn a little bit more about that tragic event, as well as which plantations really best incorporate the history of enslaved people into the stories they tell about that particular plantation. We touch a little bit on some other groups who've also lived in this corridor, including some Canary Islanders and Cajuns who settled in the region, as well as a Jewish community in Donaldsonville, where Mary Ann has a good story, where she was tracing the history of the synagogue in that particular town. We talk a little bit about the transition from agriculture to heavy industry, and then we finish with a few tips about getting the most from a visit along the River Road. How to get away from just looking at the plantation houses only or being in a hurry to get past the chemical plants. It's a fun conversation. She has a lot to offer, and I hope you'll stick around and listen to the whole thing. Thanks to all of you who continue to show me some love through patreon. For as little as $1 a month, you can join that community, make me smile and get early access to each of these episodes. Not a patreon kind of person. Well, you can show me some love by buying me a coffee, go to MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast and at that site, you can learn how to buy me a coffee and feed my caffeine habit. At that same location, MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast you'll find all 69 previous episodes. Notes, as well as the show notes for each of those episodes and for this one as well. So take some time, go back and listen to each of those episodes, look at the pictures and follow the links to find out more about the topics in each of those episodes. And now on with the interview. Mary Ann Sternberg has been a freelance writer and nonfiction author for 50 years. Her interests include Louisiana history and culture, natural history, the arts, food ways and travel as well as personal essays. She confesses to having been lucky to write about subjects that really interested her, from a week long boat trip along the Peruvian Amazon to attending a rock concert with two of her children about 35 years ago, to a NewYorker.com feature about a Baton Rouge company that made dog treats from nutria meat and much more. She's the author of 'Along the River Road,' 'River Road Rambler' and 'River Road Rambler Returns,' as well as 'Winding Through Time' about Bayou Manchac, the historic Bayou that was a distributary to the Mississippi River and once served as the international boundary between colonial Spain and England in the 18th century. Mary Ann, welcome to the podcast.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Thanks, Dean.
Dean Klinkenberg:Why don't we start with a little orientation to the geography here, there may be some confusion when we talk about the River Road versus the Great River Road. So tell us where we are on the Mississippi when you think of the River Road, where are we?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Colloquially, down here in South Louisiana, the River Road runs between New Orleans and Baton Rouge. It's on both sides of the river. And that's, of course, as opposed to the Great River Road that starts all the way up, I guess, Minneapolis or so, and comes down and has a different profile altogether. Well, I'd say that they overlap down here a little.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right. So I guess the River Road in Louisiana is also runs concurrently with the Great River Road through that area, but the Great River Road runs well beyond that stretch.
Mary Ann Sternberg:The Great River Road actually isn't totally congruent here. I'm thinking it veers off in a few places. And our River Road, you know, I mean, should say River Roads, because it's a road on each side of the river, and it traces generally the base of the levee. And it doesn't really veer from the levee, and doesn't veer from the levee almost anywhere except at Bonnet Carre, which is the spillway.
Dean Klinkenberg:So it's a continuous pavement, but it's also not the same highway number for that entire length from Baton Rouge, New Orleans, either, right?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Nope, no, yes. I didn't know what that reflected about the Louisiana Highway Department, and I didn't think I wanted to find out.
Dean Klinkenberg:So how did you get interested in this this area?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, I grew up in New Orleans, and I've been living in Baton Rouge since 1968 so the area has just been kind of part of my neighborhood almost forever. And when you live around here, the custom was, if you had out of town guests, you take them on the River Road and see plantation houses. And that's been true for forever. In 19, I don't know, 8788 I was doing a second edition on a Louisiana guidebook, guidebook to Louisiana that was done by another regional publisher, not Elisha press, which has done my River Road stuff. And I was out at the Timbermill Museum in Garyville, which was a little museum dedicated to the old cypress lumber industry that came in and decimated the old-growth cypress here in the late 19th century anyway. And so the head of it was just he was telling me, besides, about his museum, all the things that were right around there that, of course, I'd never heard of. And a week or so later, I was having a conversation with somebody who was supposed to take a guest from New Orleans up the River Road who said, you know, there's nothing on the River Road anymore. And it occurred to me that there was a huge gap between people who knew and people like us who didn't. And so I thought, Well, okay, I'm going to go find a book that connects these two people. So I went and looked, and I found a number of books about the area, but they were all highly focused on one thing or another. So I thought, well, there isn't a book that does what I want it to do. I'm a writer. I'll see if I can write the book. And so I went to the LSU Press with the idea, and they thought it had merit. So that's that's how it got started. And it led to 20 plus years of being out on the river and meeting people and learning things. And every time I went out, I learned something new, which just made the place richer and richer.
Dean Klinkenberg:It's amazing like that when you the more time, oftentimes, when you take those opportunities to get to know a place, and you dig a little bit, then you dig a little bit more, it seems like you just keep striking gold with stories that maybe people have forgotten, or maybe the stories that not many people remember. It kind of sounds like that was your experience. Like, the more you spend time there, the more stories you came across that you are now into three books.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, yeah, originally, too, the old timers, quote, unquote, were still out there, and they were so delighted to share what they knew and to refer me to other people who knew things as well, and unfortunately, they're all pretty much gone now. So you know, it was a real gift to be able to talk to them and be able to have them as resources of, you know, for the certainly for the first edition of 'Along the River Road.'
Dean Klinkenberg:So let's kind of do a quick, sort of romp through history of this area then. What do we know about the people who lived along this part of the Mississippi before Europeans came? Who lived there and who were the indigenous people in the area?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, there were several different whether tribes or groups of Native Americans. When d'Iberville came along, d'Iberville and Bienville came along in 1699 to do their exploration, they met up with, obviously, met up with these people for the first time. In fact, it was the Bayogoula, I think, who told d'Iberville about Bayou Manchac, which was a shortcut back to the Gulf where they had left their boats. And, you know, they probably never would have known about it. There is a little bit of residual Native American history still extant. There are a couple of Indian mounds. They're pretty much on private property. So unless you want to do what I did and trespass, it's not a good idea.
Dean Klinkenberg:Which we don't recommend.
Mary Ann Sternberg:No, we absolutely do not but this was in search of a story, so, but then the French, of course, came along with the Iberville and Bienville, and then after that, you know, any number of settlements and layers of settlement were made, and you had the British in above Bayou Manchac, which would be up to Baton Rouge, at least along the River Road. You, the Spanish, Germans were down just above New Orleans. They sort of, you know, of course, had slaves from Africa and from the West, Indies. And then there were free people of color. And then Acadians came in. Who were, you know, from the Nova Scotia area, fleeing persecution. Italians, I mean, it's a very It has a very rich mixed history of people. And so one of the things that started driving me was to present the area as so much more than just a plantation parade, an antebellum plantation parade, that this is a this is a place to 100 miles on each side of The river, but all it has is mid 19th century mansions, 12 or 14 of them, and I just had so much more than that that I just kept digging and finding and writing.
Dean Klinkenberg:Absolutely and a lot of the land that in between New Orleans and Baton Rouge was parceled out, I guess during the initial period of French colonial rule, was that when most of those land grants would have been made?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Yeah, a lot of them were made. And, you know, they grew into being the plantation properties, and they grew primarily. They started out growing indigo and rice, but once the ability to mill sugar in a commercial way was discovered in I think it was 1795, don't quote me to but they started planting sugar and then milling sugar, and so a lot of the land along the river was sugar plantations, Which, of course, were made by the arpent survey, which was French, and so the tracks were more narrow and long and they went from the river your river frontage was what determined how fancy place you had really because having a broad river frontage was admirable. And, you know, and then it went, it the land went all the way back into the swamp, so, and it was planted in sugar. And there was, you know, almost everywhere. Had they had their own mill in the beginning.
Dean Klinkenberg:If you've ever had a chance to see a map of, I forget what it was. It might have just been like a map of plantations and their properties between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. It shows that.
Mary Ann Sternberg:It's the Persac map from 1858.
Dean Klinkenberg:Yeah.
Mary Ann Sternberg:It's fascinating.
Dean Klinkenberg:Yeah. Can you just describe me real quickly what that looks like?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Yeah, I mean, you've got the river coming down the middle, and then on both sides, you've got what looks like spines, and they all have names on them. And then they're little places that are maybe communities or little places, indication of, I think there were, I think there's some indication on that map of places that steamboats could stop and get fuel. And, I mean, you know, it's just, it's, it's a terrific map. And there are very few originals left. You can find reproductions. I have a reproduction, which is not worth much, but I've seen, I've seen the original, and it's just, it's just fabulous.
Dean Klinkenberg:My understanding from about the at least part of the reason the properties were laid out that way, you know, with that narrow but deep sort of design is that it was a way to give everybody, all the landowners, at least, access to the river. So is that your.
Mary Ann Sternberg:I mean, that was, that was the point, of course, because the river was the source of transportation, there weren't really, there weren't dependable roads, because, of course, it rains around here, so much everything gets muddy, so you couldn't transport things in wagons or even on horseback much but using the river and until the levees were put up, the distributaries, which are all those small bayous that come off of the river from Baton Rouge south, you know, up where you are, rivers come in as tributaries, but down here, because of the way the hydrology works, the intersecting waterways were distributaries, and that they took water out rather than bringing water in. But it was a whole network, and they were used for transportation. On the east side, you know, there were by bayous that went back to the lakes, where you could access New Orleans and on the west side, Bayou Plaquemine, Bayou Lafourche should go back into the Atchafalaya Basin and wind your way through all kinds of places you can end up, eventually in the Gulf.
Dean Klinkenberg:It's hard for me to, I think sometimes, get my head around what that world would have been like at that point in time, the ecology of that area. I know that levee construction started pretty early, but water transportation and the benefits and curses of living around so much water, there must have been many of those. That. What was it like living around all those different you know, waterways and bodies of water?
Mary Ann Sternberg:It just it was part of their it was part of their neighborhood. I mean, they needed the waterways. They not only used them for transportation, they used, you know, they fish in, in the waterways, and, you know, mean it was a food source. Again, I, I was in Sicily in April, and went to see Mount Etna, and which had, of course, caused all sorts of problems in the neighborhood, any number of times. And said to the guide, you know, why don't these people move? And they said they just think of the volcano as part of their neighborhood. And I think that's the way people thought of the Mississippi River. They knew it was going to overflow in the spring, which is why, in the beginning, they built their houses up so that the water, would, you know, flow under it. And they knew they needed the bayou and the intersecting waterways to transport goods. And I was, you know, just how things were.
Dean Klinkenberg:It was just their world, right?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Just their world. Yeah.
Dean Klinkenberg:Levee construction got going pretty early there too though, right? So at some point they decided maybe there was a way to keep the water out more more frequently.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Apparently, from the earliest land grants, there was a stipulation about having to build some kind of a levee. But there wasn't uniform you built the levee on your property and the next guy built the levee on his. So it wasn't really until after the '27 flood that the uniform levee got built. And so now, of course, it's a monumental structure that goes from below New Orleans way up.
Dean Klinkenberg:It's, I forget exactly what the levee heights are down there now, but it's almost like a three story building. It seems like I remember they're monumental structures.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, and frankly, down where we are. It's the only hill we have.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right? So where did when the spring floods came? You know, I get houses were kind of elevated, so more probably most years, they could stay dry in their house. Did people tend to leave during flood season? Or how did they deal with those patterns of those cycles of high water?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, when there, I mean, the plant. A lot of the plantation owners had townhouses in New Orleans, and they may have gone to New Orleans. You know, no, the overflowing levee was always, I mean, overflowing, the overflowing river was always a threat. And I'm, you know, read some stories, because they built the levees higher and higher. It was just a question of, you know, how high can your slaves build your levee? And how are you going to protect your property? And then later, you know, what are we going to do? And I don't honestly know what the people who live there did, other than stay very alert, and if the river was at its high point, there were sentinels that walked the levees just to see that there were no breaches. I mean, there's a place there were crevasses, which, of course, is where the river breaks through the levee, and you know, then forget it. There's a street in St John Parish on the east bank of the river, and it's called Crevasse Street, and if you follow it back a block or two, there's just a really nice pond back there. Well, the pond is the residual effect of the levee having broken and the water being all over this area in the mid 19th century. And, you know, it's, that's, that was, that was one of my clue, I got a big kick out of all the places there were that had names. And if you just rode along, you wouldn't have you would have no idea what it meant, like Crevasse Street. I mean, you know, but if you know. Which was the point of what I did in along the River Road was to disentangle some of these clues, expose what they meant. And that was fun. Anyway, I'm digressing. Sorry.
Dean Klinkenberg:No, that's all right. I love those little discoveries like that too. Like most people driving by a little pond would have probably not stopped to think from it. I wonder why that pond is there, or have any sense that it's there because of a levee break. Let's talk a little bit about some of the people then in this area. I mean, you kind of gave us a broad overview of the different sort of ethnic groups of folks who live there. Let me start with this, because this term confused me for a long time, and maybe you can help clarify this for others too. What is the German Coast? Tell us what? What that's about.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, the German Coast was the area not too far above New Orleans, mainly on the west bank, where the German settlers were congregated. And that was like the late, late 18th century. It's still referred to as the German coast, even though there's not much German about it. And in fact, behind the River Road, you know, back 5 miles, 10 miles or something, there's a big lake called Lac des Allemands, which is Lake of the Germans. And the Germans, apparently were terrific farmers, and they would take their produce to into New Orleans and sell it at the what has become the French Market. Well, I guess it was then the French one, and they would, they would go down river, on the river, but when they came back, they would have to come the long way through the lakes and across through one of the bayous because it was way too hard when you didn't have a motor to go back upstream. But they are credited, honestly, with, I think, being part of what rescued the early settlers in New Orleans, so that they.
Dean Klinkenberg:It was their farming, their their skill at farming, that produced enough food that kept New Orleans going
Mary Ann Sternberg:Apparently, yeah. during some lean years.
Dean Klinkenberg:About what point in time, or what period of time did those German settlers come over? When did they begin settling along that part of the river? We're talking like mid 1700s or so?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Okay, German settlers began arriving in 1720.
Dean Klinkenberg:Early.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Let's see, by 1746 the German coast is the second largest settlement in the colony after New Orleans.
Dean Klinkenberg:Are there place names along that part of the river that reflect that German heritage in any way or, I mean, like, it's kind of funny, the lake you mentioned, it's a German lake, but it's in French.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, yeah, because everything, I mean, despite the fact that the Spanish had the colony for a very long time, the French influence is much stronger. So in a lot of instances, I I mean, there's nothing much left of the German. I mean, I remember reading on the German names that got francophied. Oh yeah, which was kind of amazing. And it was, you know, just sort of one more thing.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right. I hadn't really thought about that, but I guess, like probably many of those early German settlers, over time, their last names began to take on more of a French sound to fit in with their neighbors. I think you also wrote a little bit about the 1811 slave revolt. Yes, I don't know a lot of that. Lot of people are outside of that part of Louisiana are familiar with the story. Can you kind of tell us a little bit about that?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, a lot of people in Louisiana weren't very familiar either, until 2011 when they did a kind of shown a historic spotlight, and all of a sudden it became much better known than it had been before. The slaves in the east bank, in St John and St Charles parishes, which, as you know, is the same as counties we just, they divided things up by the Catholic Church in the beginning, and so it's never changed in terms of the name of that. They began an uprising, and they marched down the River Road, attacking plantations. And unfortunate, or fortunately or unfortunately, the militia in New Orleans rallied and came and defeated them all. And there was a trial. One of the trials was a Destrehan Plantation. And of course, anybody that wasn't any of the slaves who weren't killed were doomed, and they cut off the heads and put them on pikes and put them right along the River Road, so that it would be as a warning to not have that happen again. And as a matter of fact, the Destrehan Plantation itself has a really nice exhibit, talking of showing this and explaining it, so people, I think, don't know they're going to encounter that when they go to tour Destrehan Plantation, but it was the largest slave revolt, I think, in the country, ever. Bigger than the John Brown.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right. Hundreds, hundreds of slaves, enslaved people, were involved in that. And I had a chance to visit that exhibit at Destrehan a couple of years ago. And I agree. I hope that was really fantastic, and I thought it told the story pretty well.
Mary Ann Sternberg:And, you know, I it shows how the plantations along the river have adjusted their focus for a long time, and the complaints were absolutely valid. The plantations told the story of the people who lived in the big houses, and it somehow or another, managed to skip right over the myriads of people who were doing the work. And in the last, I'd say, I don't know, 15 years, certainly, almost all of the plantation houses have incorporated the stories of both their slaves and then their tenant farmers as part of their you know, as part of their history. And so it's much more equitable and much more real.
Dean Klinkenberg:And so if you were a person interested in the history of African Americans along the River Road, then are there a couple of places in particular you would recommend that people should visit?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, of course, the one place that's gotten a huge amount of publicity is the Whitney Plantation, which was transformed into a quote, Museum of Slavery. And, you know, that's a place to start. But any of them, any of the other plantations, have pieces of this, you know, specifically focused on their history. The River Road African American Museum in Donaldsonville does a good job of telling the story of slaves and African Americans and Blacks who have been in the area, and they've got some outbuildings that reflect culture, cultural artifacts. Yeah, they do a good job. Evergreen Plantation has the only at least along the river, and there are not many others in the South really, it's got the only collection of extant buildings from the 1850. So they've got, like 20 of the 22 original slave cabins that are in the back, and they did a huge job of, kind of inventorying the population and collecting historic information and stories and finding families and descendants and things. But they are not currently open to the public. So I you know they may be occasionally open. But they aren't open to the public anymore, so you can't access that.
Dean Klinkenberg:So I remember when we toured Oak Alley, you know, there's a collection of slave cabins, kind of at the back of the property, behind the mansion. My, from what I recall from this, the tour of the house itself, the when we went around there, they didn't have much to say at all about the enslaved people on the plantation, you kind of, but they had this separate area you could go and tour on your own. Kind of felt like they had split that part off from the main history and maybe of just guide specific. But is that kind of the way many plantations do it now?
Mary Ann Sternberg:No, how long? I mean, how long ago did you do that? Do you remember?
Dean Klinkenberg:It was? Think it was just two years ago.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Oh, well, then maybe they've changed it, because for a while it was, I mean, it was really kind of integrated into the tour. And like. And then Laura Plantation is another one that does a good job with that. Yeah, I mean in Oak Alley's slave cabins, I think are not original.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right. I think that's right.
Mary Ann Sternberg:I think that, you know, they brought them in, but, I mean, that's good, you know.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Making the effort and Oak Alley is certainly an impressive place.
Dean Klinkenberg:Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting myself. Just wanted to remind you that if you'd like to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guide books for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series that is set in places along the Mississippi. My newest book The Wild Mississippi, goes deep into the world of Old Man River. Learn about the varied and complex ecosystem supported by the Mississippi, the plant and animal life that depends on them, and where you can go to experience it all. Find any of these wherever books are sold. Well, let's go through a couple of the other groups of people who came in there. If my history is right. So there was during Spanish rule, they encouraged migration from the Canary Islands into Louisiana. And there are communities of Isleños in different parts of Louisiana. I think there might have been an Isleño community kind of a near or along the River Road. Am I remembering that?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Yeah, It was right off the River Road along Bayou Lafourche? It wasn't big, and there isn't much left of it. I mean, it's an identifiable place. There's an Isleño Museum, I assume it's still there, in a community south of New Orleans, because I haven't been there in 30 years probably. It could have been blown away by a hurricane by now, but it was a fast it was fascinating the culture of the people from the Canary Islands, and being there.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right. A lot of them were fishermen, really they. A lot of them made their living from from the sea. So I was sort of curious if I was remembering that right. So there is an old community there. Probably not much left for visitors to experience of Isleño culture in that place.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Not, not, not along the River Road. I mean, right, there may be some historical markers.
Dean Klinkenberg:And then Cajun community, the Acadians. Cajun country is a little further west, the heart of it is, right? But there is Cajun influence in places along the River Road too, if I recall.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Right. And as you asked about the German Coast, there are areas along the River Road called the Acadian Coast, and the descendants are definitely still there. There are people who live along the river who have river Cajun accents, which is different than the Cajun accents you get over by Lafayette and out near there. There was a terrific little museum in Lutcher, which is in St James Parish, that was put together by there again, kind of the older folks who cared about what their old culture had been, was the. The St James Parish Historical Society Museum. And they never had a curator, and they never had a professional anybody come, and they just collected artifacts. And the people who knew what everything was, because they had grown up with it, were the ones who were in charge and who would tell you about it. And it was, it was strictly river Cajun culture, the Acadian culture of that area. Unfortunately, they were on a piece of property that had been given them by the parish. The parish needed it back, or the city needed back to expand the water treatment plant and the papers and things were taken to Nicholls State University Archives. But all of the other artifacts, I don't know where they went, and I was just absolutely sick that the parish hadn't protected this place because it was one of the terrific little museums out along the river road that were of the culture, you know, of the various places.
Dean Klinkenberg:Wow. That is sad. I think you wrote about that in the book, but it sounded hopeful like they had, we're going to build them a new place.
Mary Ann Sternberg:At that point it was hopeful. After the book was published, unfortunately, and they just, they quit worrying about it. And of course, the people who were still around to be involved were upset about it. I was upset about it. I'm actually was on a committee where that we were trying to figure out what to do with the artifacts. And the parish just never kicked in so buildings, and, you know, they had an old cistern. They had a great big log, I mean, huge cypress log from the logging industry and the cistern. I mean, I remember once when I was there, this woman was giving a tour to a group of school children, and she was telling him that when she grew up, this was how her family got water. And, you know, it rained into the cistern, and then they went out and pull the spigot, and that's where they got their running water. And, well, not running water. Of course, these kids looked at her like, Lady, are you crazy? Yeah, things like that.
Dean Klinkenberg:Well, that's a shame I was gonna say, like, I need to put that on my list to visit the next time.
Mary Ann Sternberg:I wish you could.
Dean Klinkenberg:You know, it's hard for especially for some of the smaller communities, it's hard to hang on to all the memories or relics from the those periods of time. I remember you wrote an interesting story trying to track or trying to look for traces of an old Jewish synagogue in a building in Donaldsonville. Can you tell us about that?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Yeah, it is documented that the Ace Hardware store was the synagogue in Donaldsonville. Donaldsonville had a representative population of Jewish people, and so they built the synagogue in 1870s and it was well attended until the 1940s when there really were no more Jewish citizens in town to maintain it, and it was sold off. But it's exactly the same building. It's just it has been somewhat renovated so that it was, you know, was a store, and I talked to the owner. I mean, I had done some research so I knew what the history was and but I talked to the owner, and he lived above the store, and he took me up to his living quarters. And that's the ceiling of the old synagogue was above me. I mean, it was this, you know, kind of arched or peaked old wood. And he had had taken up the floors from downstairs to use as his floors. So he had the old pine floors from the store. And I had talked to a woman who, elderly woman, who had gone there, I guess, before it was shuttered. So she'd gone there in the maybe late '20s, early'30s. That was her synagogue, and she recalled for me what it looked like, and I got an artist to take her words and draw what it sounded like. And it showed it to her, and she said, "That's exactly it." So I gave it to Ace Hardware, along with a little history of the synagogue, and they have a double sided poster, and it's up in their window. When the last time I was down in Donaldsonville, it was still up in their window. explaining what it was and, you know, and they're there architectural elements that, if you know where to look, are still there.
Dean Klinkenberg:You won't see any Hebrew lettering anywhere at this point, I imagine, though.
Mary Ann Sternberg:No, and I don't know that there was much there at that point, either, other than anyway, but that was fun. And then the the cemetery, cemetery is still there. So, yeah, the presence is noted.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right. I had, I did wander through the Jewish cemetery a few years ago when I was down there, and it, yeah, it's, it's a good reminder of the the people who've lived in that area. I've kind of, yeah, I don't know if there are many others like me, but I like wandering through cemeteries from time to time, even as a tourist, to get a sense of looking at the names and the story, and sometimes there are short stories, even on on tombstones, it's a good way to get a sense of the people who've lived in that area. Are there other cemeteries, kind of, along the River Road that you think would be an interesting experience for visitors?
Mary Ann Sternberg:For people who who like meandering cemeteries. This, St Charles Borromeo church in I guess Destrehan has a very old cemetery. Lots of old, old tombstones. St John in Edgard has a really old cemetery. The big Catholic Ascension Catholic Church in Donaldsonville has some terrific old tombs. Freddie, I mean, any of the churches that have any age on them have good have, you know, good cemeteries. The problem, of course, is you can wander through and not know who any of the people are. So, you know the old River Road names, you know, Haydel, Becnel, whatever. And you can see that. And if you have a sense of who they were, you know, here lie they.
Dean Klinkenberg:Right, you can kind of judge their material success, at least, by the size of their monuments.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Sometimes, yes.
Dean Klinkenberg:We've kind of skipped past this part of it, but you know, at some point in the fairly recent past, this area really transformed from primarily agricultural to heavy industry. Can you talk a little bit about that transition, and what some of the major industries are that are along the stretch of the River Road now. The types of industries.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Petrochemical, of course, you know, you didn't say it so I will, most recently, the area has been referred to as Cancer Alley. And it's because, of course, the toxicity of a lot of the products that are coming out of these various plants, and the fact that sometimes they're not as well regulated or monitored, perhaps, and most of the people who live around them or are certainly poor, and many of them are black. So until recently, there wasn't what they would are calling now environmental justice. That said, you cannot argue that industry is new to the River Road, because in the time of sugar, there was a mill at the back of almost all the plantations. And that was big industry of the 19th century. You know, sugar mills were, that was what that's how you transformed the product in the field to something that people could use. And the petrochemical industry along the river probably started when Standard Oil came to Baton Rouge in 1909. They put they built a refinery in Baton Rouge in 1909 on the river. And then, I can't remember who was the next refinery could have been Shell down in Norco, what is now Norco. But one of the reasons of course, well, the main reason was the river, because you get barges coming down the river from north and you get ocean going vessels coming up the river from the Gulf, and they can go as far as Baton Rouge. So industry has access to markets all over the country and worldwide, and because the land was plantations agricultural. Louisiana has this law about heirs having to divide the land equally anyway, families often sold off tracks of land, rather than getting into a squabble about who didn't want it and who wanted to buy who out. And it wasn't going to work. And industry came in and they would buy them out for a nice price, and people would get rid of the land, and then the industry would use the land to build a plant.
Dean Klinkenberg:Probably was far easier for those families just to sell what they owned and split the profits or the dollar amount from that, rather than trying to figure out who was paying who for that acre or half acre. Yeah, I didn't think about that. That makes a lot of sense.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Yeah. So you know, I know that industry and, I mean, there are other things besides petroleum and chemical. You know, it being the river,I mean, there's all kinds of maritime businesses, and they're, I get places where there's aluminum ore. And I mean, actually, you know, coming along on the inside of the river is fascinating to see everything from the inside, as opposed from the outside of the levee. And, you know, so there's a lot of industrial hardware into the river in terms of, I don't know, what are those chutes and things to load, load and unload, and the petrochemical industry is certainly a big part of Louisiana's economy. But in recent years, there have been groups, kind of grassroot groups, that have grown up in these various areas to try and protect the people from overreach by the industries in terms of not monitoring what was happening, what is happening.
Dean Klinkenberg:That's part of the dilemma I found when driving through this area. So let's kind of transition to offering some tips for people who are traveling through here. There are a lot of places where you have the levee you know between you and the river. You may not see the river unless you go out of your way to get on top of the levee somehow, or when you're in a town and you're at a park next to the river, you've got all the private property from industry. I kind of understand why people focus on plantations, because it's an easy thing to do and visit, an obvious thing to do when you're driving through this area. So what can visitors do to sort of get out of that mindset where the only thing to see and do are plantations. What else can people be looking for and experience?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well, I will not argue with you. Visually lots of places seem derelict and there is nothing there. But that was the reason I did along the river road the way I did it, which was a similar format to the old WPA guides, where you set your odometer and you along by miles because there are still historic old buildings. They may look derelict, but they were a slave cabin, or, you know, at a specific plantation, or they were an old plantation store, or something like that. Or, for instance, Crevasse Street, there are all kinds of things, and so'Along the River Road' was written to explain what things are as you're driving along, or what things were. That makes make it a lot more interesting. That said, I cannot defend the fact that there are expanses of nothing. I mean, well, something but nothing of historic or cultural interest. You know, so mean, you can tuck in and out of the river road, because in certain areas, I mean, in St James Parish, for instance, it's pretty dense with interesting sites. In St Charles Parish, for instance, particularly on the west bank, it's all pretty much petrochemical or other industry. And so if you only had a day to look at anything, you wouldn't, you wouldn't target there. Donaldsonville, I think they're doing a better job now of explaining the town to visitors. But I mean, Donaldsonville is a fabulous old river town. And, you know, I discovered so many things in Donaldsonville. And, you know, I mean, people who lived around here said, "Really, in Donaldsonville?" And, yeah, really, you know, Plaquemines is another river town. Yeah, it just, you're right on the face of it, you can ride and you just see an open field, or you see falling down houses, and you think, why does she think I want to be out here? And she thinks you want to be out there because they're hidden stories, and I'm digging them up for you so you don't have to and trying to tell you that this is really a fascinating place, and it's not, it may look it's not Colonial Williamsburg,. It's a real place, and it's changed. And you can go this year and something's gone that was there last year.
Dean Klinkenberg:Like the Cajun Museum. Yeah, I will say I really enjoyed having your book with me when I was driving through that area along the River Road, I felt like you helped make the invisible visible for me as I was traveling through.
Mary Ann Sternberg:That's what I was trying to do. I was trying very hard to get people to see how much more was out there than was obvious, because most of it isn't obvious. And I was hoping that by making people see how much history and culture was still out there that they wouldn't regard it as just Cancer Alley or Plantation Parade. And I'm not sure that I was highly successful, but I spent over 20 years attempting to do this, and I enjoyed every minute of it.
Dean Klinkenberg:Well, good. And I completely agree with you on Donaldsonville, too. I thought that was a cute little town. There was a lot more there to see than I expected, and Plaquemines, I felt the same way. I wish I'd had more time to poke around there. So there are definitely places to see and do things. I think what makes it a little challenging is that maybe you need that sort of curation or that help to to know what to do if you're just driving through on your own without any reference or anything to help you out. I think you're going to miss a lot, and I think that's where your book really comes in handy to bring some of those stories out, but also to suggest places to visit that are still open, that you could spend some time at. I'm mindful of the time, and I do want to touch on a couple more things, You mentioned in one of your books, the batture lands. Can tell us a little bit what the batture is, and maybe give us an idea of a place or two that would be kind of fun for visitors to pop over and get a look at the batture?
Mary Ann Sternberg:All right, well, in the upper river, I guess, since there's no levee, there's no real batture. Batture is the land that's between the toe of the levee and wherever the water is. So in high water, there's no batture. Well, it's there, but it's covered. And in low order, the batture offers many different things. I mean, in some places, of course, marine services are on the batture. They're on the inside of the levee. One of the and it's hard to go to a batture because so much of the levee is privately owned. The trying to think, I mean, there are few places where you can climb up the levee and go down on the batture out by LSU, where there's a walking and biking trail on the top of the levee, and really down by New Orleans, although I think St Charles Parish is the only one that's included in my book. I didn't, as you probably noticed, I did not go into the New Orleans area at all, in terms of this, in terms of the books, because there's been so many wonderful books written about New Orleans that there was sort of no point where there was much more point trying to bring attention to this area. But any place there is a trail on top of the levee that's public, you can go wander off and, in Baton Rouge, you can go down and there's a eagle's nest in a tree. The eagle come back every year, and the tree is growing, you know, on the batture. In some places, the batture look very much like they're wild, overgrown all kinds of different trees and shrubs. And you could kind of wander through there, thinking you're really out on a hike in the country somewhere. And then, of course, other parts of the batture are, as I said, are owned by plants or maritime services. And so it's full of machinery, equipment, structures.
Dean Klinkenberg:If my memory is right and my geography is right, I think there was a really nice area of batture in front of Destrehan Plantation. There's a bike trail, I think, that passes on the other side of the road from the plantation, and then on the other side of that bike trail there's a pretty broad batture area. I don't know how accessible all that is to walk around, but if nothing else, but I'd like the way you described it. And it's basically these little peaks into the old world of the Mississippi. These are these sort of natural areas that that are left pretty much on their own. In some places, they're pretty narrow.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Yeah, Evergreen had a swamp tour in their batture some years back. They don't do it anymore, but their batture was quite wide, and it had developed as a swamp. And, you know, there were alligators the whole bit.
Dean Klinkenberg:Nice, well, I would be negligent if I didn't at least ask about food. You know, it's a part of the country famous for good food. New Orleans gets plenty of coverage for its food. If you're driving along the River Road like what I don't want to recommend specific restaurants. Restaurants come and go. I'm not interested in that, but just in terms of types of food, what can people expect to see if they just stop into local establishments in this part of the river?
Mary Ann Sternberg:Fried seafood, you know. Well, I will say I was out cruising around one day, and I pulled into a gas station in where was I? Near Vacherie, and I don't know there was the gas station was selling oyster poor boys. You know, fried oyster poor boys. So I bought a half of one. It was one of the best oyster poor boys I ever had. So I would say, don't discount anywhere. May turn out to be terrible, but it could also turn out to be surprisingly good. And, you know, there's some restaurants. There's a restaurant in Lutcher that's in an old building by the railroad. The building's over 100 years old. And, you know, does plate lunches and things, and it's very atmospheric. It's fun. I won't say the name of it, because you don't want to advertise. You know Houmas House has has restaurants. Oak Alley. I mean, some of the plantations have restaurants. But the truth of the matter is, if you just kind of wending your way along, when you stop for an attraction, ask the people who live around there, "Where should I go get something to eat? Where should I go get lunch?" And they'll tell you, because, you know.
Dean Klinkenberg:People have their favorites, and the people who live there know best.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Well and there are, there are places that are, that are of the place, as opposed to being a, you know, a chain restaurant on the Airline Highway or something,
Dean Klinkenberg:Right. And even, like the restaurants at the plantations, tend to cater towards certain tastes, or they may be very good, but it's probably going to be a different experience then you pop into a place that's been there for 50 years and serves primarily a local crowd. So I'm completely with you on the gas station food too. I remember when I was especially when we were south in New Orleans and heading down toward Venice in that area, the po' boys we had at the gas stations were some of the best po' boys I had the whole trip. So don't discount that.
Mary Ann Sternberg:Right. Exactly.
Dean Klinkenberg:Well, Mary Ann, this has been a delight to talk to you. Fantastic to have you share your passion for this part of the river and the knowledge about the history and people of the area. If people are interested in keeping up with your work or finding out more about you, how would they best do that?
Mary Ann Sternberg:I have a website, which is maryannsternberg.com and if they want the books, they're available on Amazon and also through the LSU Press, Barnes and Noble too. I think actually online.
Dean Klinkenberg:Do you have any social media accounts, like are you posting to Instagram or anything like that?
Mary Ann Sternberg:I gave that up?
Dean Klinkenberg:Yeah, probably wise.
Mary Ann Sternberg:I just, you know, so the answer to that is no.
Dean Klinkenberg:All right. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it, and perhaps someday our paths will cross down along the River Road somewhere.
Mary Ann Sternberg:I do hope so. Thank you.
Dean Klinkenberg:Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the series on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss out on future episodes. I offer the podcast for free, but when you support the show with a few bucks through Patreon to help keep the program going, just go to patreon.com/dean.klinkenberg. If you want to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guidebooks for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series that's set in places along the river. Find them wherever books are sold. The Mississippi Valley Traveler podcast is written and produced by me Dean Klinkenberg. Original Music by Noah Fence. See you next time.
