Jean Donaldson on The Culture Clash: Why Your Doodle Isn’t “Being Bad”

Jean Donaldson joins me for a powerful conversation about what she calls The Culture Clash  between humans and dogs.

If you’ve ever thought your Doodle:
 • “knows he did wrong”
 • is being stubborn
 • should be eager to please
 • is acting dominant

This episode will shift how you see your dog forever.

We dive into:

• Why assigning morality to dogs leads to harsh training
• The truth about “eager to please”
• Why intelligence is often misunderstood in Doodles
• Demand barking and why timeouts sometimes don’t work
• Why jumping isn’t dominance
• The real fallout of aversive tools

Jean explains why swapping nuisance behavior for fear is malpractice and why fear is the hardest thing to undo in dogs.

If you want a deeper understanding of how your Doodle’s brain actually works, this is foundational listening.

📚 Books mentioned:

• The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
• Mine! by Jean Donaldson

Be sure to follow to catch part two next!

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This interview was recorded three months ago as part of a live session inside the Honor Society.

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Corinne Gearhart is the founder of The Doodle Pro®, a science-based training platform helping Doodle parents raise calmer, well-mannered dogs using positive reinforcement. She is the host of The Doodle Pro® Podcast and author of Your Doodle’s Daily Schedule Blueprint™.

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Transcript

Jean Donaldson: [00:00:00] To swap a nuisance behavior for fear is pretty much malpractice.

Corinne Gearhart: Doodle dogs are easy to fall in love with, but living with one can feel overwhelming if you don't have the right guidance. I'm Corinne Gearhart, known as the Doodle Pro, and I help doodle parents build calmer, more connected and more rewarding relationships with their dogs. Using positive science-based training.

I spent years working exclusively with doodles across many different mixes and personalities, and I understand what makes them wonderfully unique and sometimes uniquely challenging. On this podcast, I bring you practical, compassionate guidance along with insights from trusted training, grooming, and veterinary professionals so you can get doodle specific answers that actually fit your real life.

I'm so glad you're here. Let's help you parent your doodle like a pro.

Corinne Gearhart: Jean. I am. [00:01:00] So grateful that you are here. I studied under you in the Academy of Dog Trainers, and your work has shaped so much of my approach, especially helping parents understand their dogs without slipping into moral interpretations.

And I just wanna say congratulations on the academy celebrating its 25th year. What an extraordinary legacy.

Jean Donaldson: Thank you, and I'm equally grateful to all that you do. Corrine.

Corinne Gearhart: In our class, Sumi to Zen, I had invited you to join us as our guest author for our book club and we read the Culture Clash, and that's still the book that I recommend more than any other for people who wanna understand working with their dog.

Jean Donaldson: Oh, I'm so, so, I'm so gratified to hear that.

Corinne Gearhart: Thank you. I, I

Jean Donaldson: We just wanna be helpful.

Corinne Gearhart: So I wanted to get first into the culture clash and why humans can really misunderstand dogs, but [00:02:00] especially doodles.

Many doodle parents relate their dogs. Like almost too funny for humans. Yeah. And I even had the New York Times reach out last year asking me about this trend, so from your perspective and in your work in the culture clash, can you share how anthropomorphism shapes misunderstandings about dog behavior?

Jean Donaldson: Yes. You know, there's a few things. One is if we stretch assigning human attributes to dogs, if we extend that to morality, we can find ourselves in the quicksand of trying to morally improve them. And this can start to be. A sort of a segue to harsh training methods where it sort of feels like, you know, the dog knows what he did, he knows it's wrong, and this sort of warrants some sort of punishment.

And historically dogs have had very, very poor treatment meted out at them by humans and over [00:03:00] and over. One of the justifications you see is that the dog, quote unquote, knows he's doing wrong. Yeah. And so it's this pretext for being really just. Just nasty to dogs as soon as we assign them morality and there's no evidence that dogs have the kind of moral software that humans come with.

So first off the bat, it's just, it's just not true. They just aren't like that. And it's something kind of sad about. You know, about sort of saying, well they're, they're humans as though they're dogging this isn't kind of good enough and it's would be better. Or somehow improving them and, you know, we would like them better and they'd be just a little bit fancier if they were human-Like, what is so good about humans?

You know, there there's an, there's an implication there that somehow our way is better that our sort of, you know, act in the talent show of being very clever and using language and that sort of thing is somehow. Superior and I just, I, I just don't buy that. It's for sure interesting. You know, humans are a great [00:04:00] species and very interesting, but so are dogs, you know, like their do this is good enough.

I mean, they're, they're just fine as they are. We don't need to try and stretch and, you know, contort things and say, wow, they're humans as though that's somehow better.

Corinne Gearhart: I love that. And in your book you kind of talk about the disneyfication of dogs and. That we really hang on to them being more than just a dog.

And you touch on. Like all the damage we could do if we're applying the way we think to them. And a dog in itself is pretty remarkable.

Jean Donaldson: It, they're fine as they are. You know, it's kind of, we have, I mean, in sort of recent years, it's come to light the way that young girls as. Especially can, you know, suffer anxiety and depression because they're comparing themselves, kind of the social media feeds of celebrities with full hair and makeup and, you know, and, and, [00:05:00] and that, that they end up with sort of low self-esteem because they're comparing themselves to something that really isn't real.

And if we start to hold dogs up. To, you know, Walt Disney or Lassie type things, which are fiction. These are all sort of, you know, they're made to look, you know, unrealistic for narrative purposes. Then, then dogs end up sort of suffering. They end up coming up wanting, and I, you know, and I, I really worry about that.

Corinne Gearhart: I, I completely agree. And you talk a lot in the book about how then we are assuming their intent and that they feel guilty or they're being stubborn and a lot of that leads us to be more punitive than to be better trainers.

Jean Donaldson: Right, right. You know, it is quite the irony that, you know, as soon as we dify dogs, they end up sort of getting the shorter end of the stick vis-a-vis how we're treating them.

Corinne Gearhart: And it doesn't mean our relationship if we see them as dogs, needs to be any less

Jean Donaldson: Yeah.

Corinne Gearhart: Than,

Jean Donaldson: no, it's, [00:06:00] it's, it's one of the wonders of, of the universe how, you know, two species can just, we just, we, we meld so well together that it's one of the greatest inventions of humans really as dogs.

Corinne Gearhart: When we think about doodles in particular, you can't make a doodle without a poodle.

A lot of people are really drawn to, I want the intelligence of a poodle. And you talk a little bit about the kind of misnomer of the intelligence label.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah.

Corinne Gearhart: When it comes to dogs. Can you share a little more of that?

Jean Donaldson: Yeah, I think we're using sort of the wrong yardstick here. You know? It, it's like kinda like saying, Corin are you sort of the right shade of orange?

You know, it's like it's asking the wrong question, what breed is intelligent or should we, how do we, what dogs are intelligent or we value intelligence in dogs.

Corinne Gearhart: Mm-hmm.

Jean Donaldson: You know, intelligence is, is sort of an overrated thing. I think it comes down once again to humans overvaluing ourselves, that because we're clever, therefore clever is the way that we measure [00:07:00] goodness.

Clever is sort of the one yardstick to measure how a species is worthy. It's just sort of remarkable. It Stephen Pinker famously said that, you know, we don't sort of talk about. You know, the, the, the jumping ability. If you, we don't measure marsupial, you know, whether we have good enough pouches or jumping ability.

It's not the way we measure. Brilliant. And we, we, you think it's, you know, you think it's hilarious, you know, to say that, but it's equally hilarious to say that brain power sort of computing power in one's brain is some, somehow more important than any other attribute that a species uses to make a living in the world.

We are not the be all, end all. We are sort of a relatively recent bleep on these, you know, in the evolutionary playing field. And it remains to be seen whether we've got any kind of staying power. So, you know, I think we should be a little bit cautious about using human attributes as the way to measure, you know, the superiority of another species.

I mean, dogs are [00:08:00] fantastic as they are.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. And understanding them better is something that you accomplished so well in this book and when we're, when you're kind of talking about how we use our value system and are applying them to dogs, I see that when people are selecting a breed and I want. Aussie. I want the, I want the smartest you.

That'll be the fastest train, the most capable. When it comes to doodles, I want an Aussie doodle. Yeah. I'm gonna bind the two that are on the list for the smartest, and that can kind of bite them.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. And, and no pun

Corinne Gearhart: intended.

Jean Donaldson: Ps I mean, there, there's no science really on. You know what, what we would pro you or I would probably define as intelligence.

Okay. So problem solving ability, you know, sort of, you know, a a, a sort of a wide cognitive toolbox. Mm-hmm. It's not something that's been studied in dogs. I would venture that probably what's more important from the perspective of, okay, so why wouldn't [00:09:00] Aussie Dole be such sort of a training machine?

They're easy to motivate. They're what we call drivey. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, they're, they're soft, so if you raise their, your, your voice, they, ugh, sorry. You know, and, and people say, well, I'm not being harsh. I'm just, you know, I just said no. They're easy to train with food, they're easy to train with toys, and that ease of training can sometimes be checked off as intelligence, where it's probably more ease of motivation.

I mean, there's some hounds and some Asian breeds and stuff where they're harder to motivate. But I'm not sure that they're, they're stupider. You know, once you get their number. So once you do get them motivated, they seem to learn just as well as your oodles. So I'm not sure that there's accuracy about the, you know, the osse dole thing.

Mm-hmm. Or boor, colies, or, you know, malus or whatever have you. I think we need to, first of all, control for how easy they are to motivate in training.

Corinne Gearhart: You dive. I mean, I highly recommend this book, but you dive in so deeply into kind of the [00:10:00] fallout and the misnomers of eager to please, and my dog should just want to please me, and that should be enough.

And when we're talking about the features, particularly with our doodle mixes of being softer and that sensitivity means even more dramatic fallout. Yeah. From some of those outdated methods

Jean Donaldson: Right. It's easier to flatten them, you know? Yeah. So it's like if you had a sensitive human being that was sensitive, you know, more anxious or, or more sensitive mm-hmm.

You'd wanna be gentler with them, you know, and be more careful if you had a child who was sensitive. Yeah. You know? So if you've got a dog who is more sensitive, you wanna be mindful about that end. And not traumatize 'em. I mean, they're more easily traumatized by something that might not traumatize a quote unquote harder dog.

Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I mean, e the eager to police thing is just the, the worst idea that anybody ever came up with. It, it's inaccurate for one thing. So anybody who [00:11:00] claims that they're training on that basis. Tell them, okay, can you do this without your special collars? You know, without, you know frightening and scaring and hurting dogs, can you still train them with just the eager to please?

And lo and behold, if you take away their special collars, suddenly they're not getting the job done. So. You know, it's a very well known saying in, in dog training, which is no motivation, no training. So soon as you take away motivation, you, you're, you're, it's a non-starter. You can't even start to train a dog if you haven't got something that motivates them.

Corinne Gearhart: And I, I repeat this with my students and listeners. My motto is, we do the best with what we know. Yes. And if you're just watching some TV and you're listening to your neighbor and your grandpa. Like you just are trying. You love your dog and you're trying what you've heard and what you've seen. And I mean, dogs are incredibly resilient and [00:12:00] social creatures that want to be with us and learn new ways.

If you've tried those methods before, all isn't lost. You can still work with your dog a different way.

Jean Donaldson: Dogs put up with a lot from us and they're very familiar and you know, I think there's a lot of folk knowledge out there about dogs because everybody sort of had one, you know, or say and, and a lot of people kind of fancy themselves good with dogs or dog expert 'cause they've kind of had one and they kind of sort of made it work.

Usually that's because dogs are really good at fitting into human society, even if we don't kind of do it optimally. And luckily now we've got more research than ever before. We've got sort of more you know, a wider sort of swath of people who've been training dogs without hurting them for now, probably a few decades.

And getting the job done on all sort of problem types, all breed types that we now have the technology to do that. So I think the excuse of [00:13:00] sort of, you know. Making it up as you go along and doing not a very good job is less than it used to be. Mm-hmm. You know, we need to kind of access the best possible information

Corinne Gearhart: and thanks in great part to your leadership.

In the field on this. So

Jean Donaldson: I'm one of many, many,

Corinne Gearhart: We are so appreciative to you and the rest that have kind of forged this path. In my Doodle Pro Academy, I have some students that share kind of practical training questions, and while they were reading your book I wanted to just bring some of them into our talk today because most.

Dog parents don't get the direct chance to talk with you. You're, , shaping the minds and training of trainers everywhere. So I'm just going to share a couple of these questions with you as we go.

Jean Donaldson: Sure.

Quick pause. This interview was originally recorded live inside the Doodle Pro Honor Society. Quick pause. This inter This [00:14:00] interview was originally recorded live inside the Doodle Pro Honor Society during one of our private book club discussions with Jean Donaldson,

with that month's guest.

With that book club's author, Jean Donaldson, honor Society members didn't just listen. They joined live, submitted questions and engaged directly with this author and industry leader in real time. Public. Listeners hear these conversations months later. Honor society members are in the room when they happen.

If you'd like to get access to expert discussions like this, join the Doodle Pro Honor Society today. Let's get back to our chat. I.

Corinne Gearhart: I'll one of our students, thank you and I have no doubt one of our students is trying to work [00:15:00] with some demand barking.

Which isn't one of our favorite phrases, but she said, my dog trots into his crate for timeouts, but doesn't seem to learn his lesson. And I thought this was an excellent example of how timeouts actually work as opposed to our like, human moral frame.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. And so if it's not working then you have to sort of like, so why is it not working?

Now, a few of the things that can usually get in the way of timeouts, not of timeouts working well. One is that it's not applied every time. So timeouts is one of those things where you gotta do it every time. And, and sometimes, you know, humans, you know, we're, we're just, we're like anybody, you know, we, you know, oh boy, it's such a pain in the butt to, you know, make this happen.

And so if it's only happening some of the time, then dogs can sort of, they can learn the loopholes about, you know, when. When is, you know, when is she really serious and when is, you know, maybe I can push the envelope a little bit. Dogs are really good at that kind of stuff. Yeah. The other thing is, if you think about [00:16:00] timeouts, they're, they're, what's they're sort of like a fine, so, you know, if you get a parking ticket, so let's say you're parking somewhere and you're in a big city and the parking ticket that you're anticipating getting is 15 bucks, but it would cost you 50 bucks.

To put the thing in a garage, you might say, you know what, I'm gonna take the ticket. It, it's better, you know, I'm, I'm actually ahead with the ticket. I'm gonna go ahead and transgress. So sometimes if the timeout is not, if the dog kind of like, well, I just kind of be soon be in my crate anyway for, you know, a minute.

Then it's not enough of a fine. So sometimes what we say in dogs is if the, you know, if a $5 fine's not working, try a $500 fine. You know, try something where he's really removed you know, where he does what he's, you know, so does something he doesn't want and you want. So give him a consequence.

Okay. So how about he's in the bathroom and he's sitting there for five minutes rather than 30 seconds, you know, try different kinds of fines. Mm-hmm. To see if you could get one that is in Doug says, you know what, that's actually kind of not worth my while. The other thing is that if you're [00:17:00] trying to apply fines to behavior, that's extremely wired in now, sometimes, quote unquote, demand barking is pretty volitional.

In other words, the dog's got sufficient control over it that, you know, a consequence is gonna kind of hit it. But some things, if they're really wired in and guess who did the wiring? And by the way, it's us, so we selectively bread. So, you know, you know, we often say to miniature schnauzer people 'cause they get all kind manner of kinda what we call watchdog barking.

Corinne Gearhart: Mm-hmm.

Jean Donaldson: You know, we, we spend a hundred generations breeding in this. You know, super sensitivity to environmental change and the tendency to kind of bark at it. And then we say, you know what? I don't want it. So it's a kind of a dirty trick. Yeah. You know, like, please don't do it anymore. And depending on how, how strongly it's wired in, it can be a little tougher to modify.

So that might be the reason why.

Corinne Gearhart: And I found, and this is specific to this student the pup is happily trotting into the crate and laying down for 30 seconds. And it [00:18:00] sounds to me like a pattern. The dog's kind of learning the pattern

Jean Donaldson: Yeah.

Corinne Gearhart: As opposed seeing it as pattern. Oh, fine.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. It's not, it's kind of a pattern that's not a very expensive finding he's doing, it's kind of a game and, you know.

Mm-hmm. And why not next time? And if the, and if the demand barking is working. Part of the time. So if a percentage of the time he barks to be let out or to get attention, or to get a snacky snacky, or to get padding, or to get you to look at him or what have you, if it's working a percentage of the time that's gonna support it.

Corinne Gearhart: And I know we have some positive reinforcement trainers listening, and a common question I've heard in your program is, well, aren't we creating a negative connotation to the crate if we use the crate for that removal?

Jean Donaldson: It is a, it's a rather long-winded answer. I mean, I'll, I'll try to give you the, the TLDR, you know, version of it, which is

Corinne Gearhart: Yes.

Jean Donaldson: You know, the, the, the, the, aren't we creating, in other words, our intention doesn't make the crate negative. [00:19:00] So if the dog already likes his crate and you use the crates for timeout, it's not a timeout. You're not gonna ruin the crate. You're just not gonna get. Much of an effect. It's like saying, whenever you do something I don't like, I'm going to happy talk you.

And, and because my intention is that this is a, a timeout, then oh, am I gonna destroy happy talk? No, you're just gonna support the behavior, okay? Mm-hmm. So it doesn't work that way. You, you can't ruin the crate or give the crate negative connotations just 'cause you're intending to use it as a timeout.

If the dog likes the crate, he likes the crate. Now here's the thing. The dog probably likes the crate when he wants to be in this. So let's say that sometimes he wants to go in there to nap, or to be alone or to, you know, chew on a chew or what have you. He wants it at that time. If at this time he wants to be outside the crate, then it could very well work as a consequence to put him in the crate.

I often say to people who wrestle with this concept, imagine a thought experiment where we're all in the crate together. So let's say you had a big enough crate and you're in the [00:20:00] crate with the dog and he, and you're all, you know, you're hanging out and you're doing stuff, and you're holding a chew for him, and he does something you don't like, and you put him outside the crate.

And if that functions as a timeout. Are you then, you know, are then corrupting? Are you ruining the outside world? Mm-hmm. It really is about, you know, making things worse for the dog in terms of where he would like to be. It's not about the crate per se.

Corinne Gearhart: Mm-hmm.

Jean Donaldson: And sometimes people, sometimes people can get their heads around that and sometimes they can't.

If people actually can't, then the easiest thing is to punt and to say. Okay, you don't have to use the crate, or you could have two crates have evil crate and good crate, or use the laundry room or just leave, or you leave the room. There's a lot of ways to accomplish this. You don't have to use a crate

Corinne Gearhart: and to challenge ourselves to not use our child rearing or school kind of human thought process about it.

This isn't a naughty spot or a dense cap where we're shaming or [00:21:00] like a punish. It is a punishment in a way of child rearing. Yeah. This is removing access from the yummy great stuff. Right, and

Jean Donaldson: it's making something not work. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's just saying it's eradicating the success of something you don't like.

So dogs do what works and if you can make something absolutely not work, in other words, dog says, you know, this was really getting me X. Now not only is it not getting me x, it's, you know, I'm going back a few yards, I'm suddenly, he's gonna change his mind about doing it. It's nonviolent. Dogs don't have shame the way that humans do.

Mm-hmm. And that is something that, that is very important to, to understand.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. Thank you. Another question that was shared kind of with the human emotion piece. A student said panting is confusing. Sometimes it's excitement, sometimes it's stress, sometimes frustration. How do you help people understand arousal without projecting human emotion onto it?

Jean Donaldson: It's a great question and it's a, it's a tough one. Yeah. And I don't have magic [00:22:00] there. I can see that panting is often what we call an artifact. In other words, it's not, you know, a sign of something. Insidious. Dogs pan the primary way that dogs cool themselves off. And dogs are very good at tolerating cold generally.

They're not very good at tolerating heat. And so dogs pant very readily to cool to lower their body temperature. And so panting is not always. A sign of, of anything. Dogs also pant kind of when they're having fun. You know, not all stress is negative. So you wanna be careful about that. Same thing with dilated pupils.

You know, if dogs are in a dark room, their pupils are gonna be dilated. If you, if you open up a treat cupboard, their pupils are gonna dilate. Doesn't mean you know anything. Sid. So if the, you know, but panting can be, so if panting is conjunct is in conjunction with the dog, kind of looking frozen in place and staring straight ahead and panting and kind of being unwilling to move, you have kind of that, you know, fight, flight, freeze.

Mm-hmm. If it's looking like that, then a reasonable inference is that that [00:23:00] dog is stressed. If they're playing with a buddy or they're hot you know then it, you wanna first rule out, okay, is this dog just cooling off? Mm-hmm. Now arousal is a, is a problematic concept. It's a, it's a few years ago, it got it kind of caught fire.

Yeah. And everyone's like, oh my god, arousal. It's the bad thing. But here's the thing, it's not very specific. Dogs can be aroused when they're playing with their dog buddy. They're aroused when they're playing tug. They're aroused when they're doing zoomies. They're aroused when they're happy. Yeah, we don't wanna eradicate that.

Yeah. We do wanna eradicate dogs who are anxious, afraid, worried. We don't want that. We don't want dogs to be, you know, to, to have those emotions. Arousal is too broad an umbrella. We wanna be a little bit more careful about say, saying that joy is great. But fear is not great.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah. And your book, you give specific instructions on how to kind of fill the needs with arousal [00:24:00] in the right way, with tug and fetch.

And that tug isn't all bad. And here's how to channel, like if you can fill those needs, they're not needing to find it another way.

Jean Donaldson: That's right. Yeah. There's two sort of models that compete with each other. Mm-hmm. One is the original sort of Conrad Lauren, so the, the, the Ethologist Conrad lens, which is the, what we call the hydraulic model, which is that we have needs, okay, we need food, we need water, we need air, we.

And a lot of these things that are basic needs they have, they wax and wane depending on how recently you've had them. So if you've just eaten Thanksgiving dinner, you're not gonna be hungry. It's gonna be hard to motivate you with food if it's just before you are gonna be hungry. So that need for food is gonna change based on your blood sugar.

Your need for water is gonna wax and wane the, and in dogs the need to sort of move and to, to sort of do stuff is gonna wax and wane depending on whether they've, they've had some or [00:25:00] not.

Corinne Gearhart: Mm-hmm.

Jean Donaldson: There's another competing model, which we call kind of the Pandora's MO box model, which is if you let dogs do something, they're just gonna do it more.

And that flies in the face of everything we actually know about animal behavior. That you don't sort of make things worse by filling a need. So people will say, oh my God, if you play fetch, this was, I don't know if you remember two or three years ago, people were saying, don't play fetch like ever, because Right, because then you're just gonna want it more and you make them obsess.

Hang on a second. The breeding made them obsess. The fetch is an outlet for what is something that we bred into them. You don't make them that way. Depriving animals of food doesn't make them want food. Less depriving animals of movement doesn't make them more calm, you know, it's just not how it works.

But unfortunately, there is this competing model out there that somehow calm is good. Moving is bad. Moving is stress. Joy is bad. Joy is arousal. Joy is just, and it just becomes this big sort of mishmash that's really, we need to kind of, you [00:26:00] know, let, let's think about this and let's pull it apart a little bit and unpack what we mean when we say arousal or, you know.

And the other thing is this value judgment, that somehow activity is worse than not moving.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. Yes. I agree.

Jean Donaldson: Hang on a second. If you don't want activity, you can certainly adopt a chow, you know? But if you're going to get a dog who's, who's got activity level, they're gonna be active. And it's not bad, it's not worse.

Mm-hmm. You know, but you do need to meet the need.

Corinne Gearhart: They're not stuffed animals, like

Jean Donaldson: they are not, and, and doodles in particular, I mean, in terms of activity level, they're up there.

Corinne Gearhart: They are. And when you're talking about those competing models, that was a big trend for a bit with like being pro-social.

Don't let your dog play with any other dogs, so then they won't try to greet other dogs on walks.

Jean Donaldson: Un that that was so pernicious. I mean, it came from the sort of people who do dog sports. Mm-hmm. Where it, it's much more convenient to have a dog who's quote unquote asocial. So a dog who's a little [00:27:00] bit uncomfortable with other dogs who's under socialized, we would sort of say, right.

They're not then distracted. They don't want to go up to dogs, they don't wanna go up to people, they're so, they're gonna focus better at your competitive events. Okay, now I'm not sure I'm wild about that. But then to extrapolate that and say that this is now how we should have all dogs, so people who have companion dogs, that we should under socialize 'em.

So they're just a little bit uncomfortable and they don't wanna go up to people or dogs. You know, if, if you take that just a little bit further, then suddenly we've got fear and aggression, right? And fear is the hardest thing to get rid of. And so the, the, the, the, the height of irresponsibility is to say we should under socialize dogs so that they are more convenient.

Why not? Let's socialize them and then also teach the manners

Corinne Gearhart: and fill that cup. Like, yes.

Jean Donaldson: Right. Yeah. You know, I I think it's a very, you know, luckily that idea fell by the way, so I didn't have any legs. Yeah. But I remember like you [00:28:00] do

Corinne Gearhart: and, and that's why in puppy classes you'll have little play breaks to like fill that need, so Yeah.

Yeah. That desire isn't just building and building.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah.

Corinne Gearhart: Another thing that people can misinterpret when we're talking about the high energy needs and stuff with doodle behavior jumping. People can see that as friendliness or disobedient or that they're being dominant over them still. We hear that a little bit, I know.

But for some dogs it can also be anxiety and trying to create distance. Can you kind of talk us through that a little bit?

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. Jumping generally. Generally speaking, dogs jump up in the context in which they jump up when we are novel to them. So if you go away for four hours and you come back, it's when they wanna jump on.

You. Dogs are wired to greet other beings with a lot of sort of face-to-face contacts. Yes. Looking each other's muzzles. Sometimes there's [00:29:00] looking and so on. We have the. Mistake of being vertical. So our faces are up high and for them to access our faces, they, they jump. Then we go crazy with the interpretations about this.

Mm-hmm. I, you know, the, the, you know, jumping, generally speaking, jumping up is pro-social. In other words, you know, I, I work on chows all day, every day. And what these people would give when they've got a dog who's doesn't like people, they would give anything to have a dog, to have the problem of dog who's too pro-social.

Because trying to fix a dog who's not pro-social, who's asocial or antisocial, is a big order. So it's a nice problem to have jumping up because what you do is you, you just, you know, gradually teach them an alternative behavior. When you're greeting, please sit or peel, please keep four on the floor.

And if you do that, there's gonna be snacks. There's gonna be a tension. And, and if you can do it, I mean, some people are comfortable, some people are not. Facial proximity. Get down to their level and let them sniff and lick your face. Yeah, that's what they're compelled to do. [00:30:00] They're compelled to do it the way that we're compelled to do things like smile at each other.

We have a lot of social conventions, like Shaking Hands or, or you know, things that we do that are human norms. Mm-hmm. And one of the norms in dog culture is facial proximity and face-to-face contact after absence or when greeting or when being obsequious, et cetera.

Corinne Gearhart: And the behavior they're doing what works.

It's functional, it's not moral.

Jean Donaldson: No. No, it's, they're, they're, they think they're doing the right thing.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah.

Jean Donaldson: You know? And in dog society, that's, it's the polite thing to do. It's the mm-hmm. They're, they're compelled to do it. They, they, they're, you know, once again, it's sort of it, they're saddled with a genetic legacy of this is the way that, you know, we, you know, when dogs meet, they sniff rears and they sniff each other's faces.

And with us they want that facial proximity. Dogs like to lick faces. They want to be near our faces.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. And, and so one of the best, put it this way, if all this other stuff was the [00:31:00] problem, then why is training the dog to sit, why does it work so well?

Corinne Gearhart: Mm-hmm.

Jean Donaldson: You know, why not just train the dog to sit and stop the overinterpretation?

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. And I, unfortunately, I mean, I'm grateful to have them, but I have a lot of students that come to me frustrated with their doodle jumping, and they have gotten advice saying, need them in the chest. And or they've had someone use a shock collar eco

Jean Donaldson: Oh gosh.

Corinne Gearhart: When they're jumping. And do you mind sharing a little bit what the fallout is of.

When they've been doing what they've been taught to do by trainers or neighbors, et cetera.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. When I first got into training, you know, we, you know, those of us who sort of were not versus inclined, we didn't wanna do it and luckily we could get the job and you can teach sit without a shock collar. Any trainer who can't teach a dog to sit without a shock collar, it's not competent.

You know, this is not hard. To do, you basically gradually escalate the, the [00:32:00] degree of distraction until you're doing social distractions and how, you know, and then doing it after absences and stuff. So there's one thing which is like, hang on a second, we've got a dog train who can't deju a dog? You know, so that's, that's questionable.

And I wish I was being hyperbolic, but I'm not. That that is a, you know, hang up. Really. You can't teach sit and you're a dog trainer. So there's that. The other thing is that now, so we're in 2025, there's a studies, research studies. As long as my arm. With the sequela. So the, the the follow, the, the side effects of using a versus to train dogs, they are mm-hmm.

Fear, anxiety, aggression. Okay. So that, and those are the hardest things to get rid of.

So fear is the hardest thing to, deinstall jumping is the easiest thing. Or, or rather not jump, but, but sit rather than jump is the easiest thing to teach. To swap a nuisance behavior for fear is pretty much malpractice.

Corinne Gearhart: And then that [00:33:00] means if, if you've been kneeing your dog. In the chest when they jump at you, when you come in the house,

Jean Donaldson: it's kind like

Corinne Gearhart: we just

Jean Donaldson: equated, like I meet, kinda like I meet you in a restaurant, you extend your hand.

Yeah. And I slap you in the face like the, you know, like what? I can we do better than that.

Corinne Gearhart: I don't want my dog to associate me walking in the door with pain or discomfort.

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. Especially when he is trying to greet you. He's happy to

Corinne Gearhart: see you. Yeah. So, yeah, they might stop, but at what cost?

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. Yeah.

It's just, I don't know. Sometimes you just gotta wonder about people like, you know, really?

Corinne Gearhart: And, and if it's all you've been taught and you didn't know how to Right. You know, how different

Jean Donaldson: Yeah. You don't have to, you, you just, you teach the dog sit, you gradually increase the distractions and then you migrate into the social context.

Corinne Gearhart: Yeah. There are some trainers that don't love working with doodles and sometimes it can be [00:34:00] doodle parents assuming that they're like just teddy bears and I mean, they're adorable.

Jean Donaldson: They

Corinne Gearhart: are. But when we're talking about high energy, sometimes super prosocial. Yeah. Athletic ability and that softness you even mentioned the

Jean Donaldson: grooming.

Corinne Gearhart: Oh my goodness. Yes. Even if you're just going sporty and you're getting a shave down, just the expense and Yeah.

You

Jean Donaldson: still

Corinne Gearhart: have

Jean Donaldson: to do it.

Corinne Gearhart: Husbandry of it. Yes. Like

Jean Donaldson: a whip it.

Corinne Gearhart: Yes. Is there anything that you would advise a doodle parent who's looking for a trainer, how to find one that's a good fit?

Be sure to follow the Doodle Pro Podcast to make sure you don't miss next week where we dive in, where we move from theories about dog training to get right into some more practice. To [00:35:00] some more real life troubleshooting with the Gene Donaldson. This conversation was originally recorded live inside the Doodle Pro Honor Society.

As part of that month's private book club discussion with Gene Donaldson members didn't have to wait for this to air. They joined live, participated in the discussion and submitted their own questions to this author and industry leader amongst many other guests inside the Honors Society. We regularly host live Expert q and as book club discussions with leading voices in dog training, grooming

and dog training. Book club discussions with leading voices in dog training, deeper dives into behavior topics, grooming, vet and healthcare, and more, and real-time coaching conversations with me, the Doodle Pro. If you'd like to be in the room for conversations like this, join the Doodle Pro Honor [00:36:00] Society today@thedoodlepro.com
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I'll see you next week for part two.

Speaker: Thanks for spending this time with me. If today's episode helped you, be sure to follow the show so you don't miss what's coming next. I'll see you in the next episode.