Ep60: Celina Baljeet Basra: on migrant workers, food & talking to imaginary audiences

This week's podcast episode is a super interesting conversation with Celina Baljeet Basra. In Celina’s debut novel, Happy, she introduces us to the protagonist of the same name – Happy. Coming from a farming family in Punjab, we follow him as he makes a huge decision to leave his family home in India and to travel to Europe for work. Celina provides us with a witty and nuanced look into the food industry in Europe, as well as the experience of labour migrants and their families. She raises vital questions around human dignity, human rights, the pursuit for happiness and success in life, and whether we are asking the right questions with regards to living ethically. Happy is written in a non-traditional format, making the reading experience so much more interesting and nuanced.

Celina is a writer and curator based in Berlin. She graduated from the Free University of Berlin, where she studied Art History in a Global Context, and has since worked with Berlin Biennale, Galerie im Turm, and other institutions at the local and international level. She has a range of residencies under her belt and she was awarded both curatorial and literary research scholarships from the Berlin Senate. She is a founder of The Department of Love, a curatorial collective.

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Transcript

Samia Aziz: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to The Diverse Bookshelf with me, Samia Aziz. On this show, I interview incredible authors doing a deep dive into important themes and issues while talking all things books. On today's show, I'm joined by super creative Ceina Baljeet Basra. In Celina's debut novel, Happy, she introduces us to the protagonist of the same name - Happy - coming from a farming family in Punjab. We follow him as he makes a huge decision to leave his family home and India and to travel to Europe for work. Celina provides us with a witty and nuanced look into the food industry in Europe, as well as the experience of labour migrants and their families. She raises vital questions around human dignity, human rights, the pursuit of happiness and success in life, and whether we're asking the right questions with regards to living ethically. Happy is written in a non traditional format, making the reading experience so much more interesting. I'm so glad we're speaking today. Celina is a writer and curator based in Berlin. She graduated from the Free University of Berlin where she studied art history in a global context. And has since worked with Berlin Biennale, Galerie im Turm, and other institutions at the local and international level. She has a range of residencies under her belt, and she was awarded both curatorial and literary research scholarships from the Berlin Senate. She is a founder of the Department of Love, a curatorial collective. Hi Celina, thanks for joining me on the diverse bookshelf podcast today. How are you doing?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 1:47

Thank you so much. I'm so happy I can join you. It's a beautiful day out in Berlin, a beautiful October day, and so happy to talk to you.

Samia Aziz: 1:58

I'm so glad that you're here on the show today. Before we get into talking about happy, which is your your novel, which was out in mid November, I'd just like to know a little bit about your writing journey. What led you to work on Happy and produce this really interesting, new and fresh novel?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 2:24

I think I have been sort of trying to write or thinking about the world of the novel, ever since I was a teenager. Because I think I always wanted to be a writer. But somehow I needed a lot of time to find the right voice and structure. And to also find a way in which I would go beyond the hopeful beginnings, sort of and never feeling the voice was quite right. I've been working, moving to Berlin to study and then working in the arts for quite a few years. Before I then sort of allowed myself to set aside big chunks of time to work on this novel, at times, almost then full time, always in the mornings. And it was the beginning; the prologue cover letter written by Happy that sort of gave me the entry into his voice. And then it just got out. It just had a wonderful flow, once I found the voice, and also just had a lot of fun writing and gave myself the freedom to maybe leave some traditional ideas of what if structure of the book should be behind, then I could really go into it. And it just worked miraculously.

Samia Aziz: 3:47

So I think one of the things that really that's very striking about the novel, is its form. So you know, you talked about finding Happy's voice and I think like his voice is so clear throughout the entire book. You know who he is like, he doesn't ever kind of falter in terms of his voice and the way that that he is portrayed throughout the book. But the form of the novel is maybe like a little bit random at times. It's really as you've described it as being non traditional. It's not a linear novel. So we have almost like diary entries. And we have plays in scripts that he's written and lists, and then things from different characters perspective. Why did you decide to have a form that was so non traditional? And what was it like for you exploring that?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 4:42

Yeah, that's an interesting question, because it's really the form that allowed me to do what I wanted to do and to gain an entry into his world. I think some stories, at least from my view, can best be told in a sort of scattered, fragmented way because the idea that life is linear or, you know, a life story is a whole thing with our careers. And the book in many ways is also sort of a workplace novel, centred a lot around work and its takes of work. The idea that there is a linear career where it's just a clear pathway in front of us. And so all of that didn't make sense for me for Happy's story. I finally arrived at the image that at the end, we have a bag full of essential belongings, notes, stories, songs, that we find, and that we then use to piece his life together, in a way. So this is how understood it for myself, in the end, but it just went into it and found a lot of freedom and fun in including the perspective of a bag or a bag of flour, or including food also to give a more rounded view. It give us sort of a different rhythm, and a change from Happy's wide eyed naivety, including perspectives from his family and people he worked with. So yeah, that was how I arrived at that form.

Samia Aziz: 6:15

That's interesting, and actually quite sombre, because if you think about the greatest writers of all time, from the pre social media age, so much of what we know about them is gathered from these small bits of things that they have left behind - their possessions, but a lot of the time, their writings, things that have been published with things that haven't been published, like William Shakespeare, for example, we don't have any concrete evidence right about who he met with about what his views were, this is all things that have been sort of interpreted from the work that he's left behind, and some of the commentary from other people at the time and the people in his lives, and, his children and his wife, and all of these other things. And there is something really quite sad and melancholy about that - that it is very difficult really, to leave a mark on the world and that when one one is gone, how will you be remembered by what you did? But also, will you be remembered for long enough? I think it's a really, really pertinent question of our time, actually, as well. The more we think about people using social media and celebrity culture as it is, but really like for how long will people remember us after the end? It's a really a very sad question, I think.

Celina Baljeet Basra: 7:42

It is, but a beautiful association. From your side, I feel a connection to what is left behind from the life of great writers or what is essential, what do we leave for the world. I always feel that Happy and in Happy's case, other lives he touched and touched by him, that it's our hope that we do continue to live with the people around us. Yeah, but

Samia Aziz: 8:07

Yeah, absolutely. So before we get into some of the definitely also sad. I think there's both in there, I think sadness and light. themes that you write about, I wonder if you could just take a moment just to introduce your novel to anyone listening that hasn't yet picked it up. Just tell us a little bit about what it's about.

Celina Baljeet Basra: 8:29

Of course. It is about a character, a boy named Happy Singh Soni. He travels from Punjab, where we encounter him first. And we remain at his home farm for a bit, we encounter his family get to know his world, before he then meets a mysterious and wondrous woman called Europe who invites him on a journey. So he decides to travel to Europe. And the whole journey and his migration is not by the books. So we follow a sort of undocumented migration here. And from then on, in a lot of things happen. But it's also a slow unravelling of a lot of his ideas of what Europe would be like. But first of all, he encounters or he finds himself in the food industry in the south of Europe, namely, first of all, a restaurant kitchen in Rome, and then sort of finds his way. He strikes up new friendships. But then he ends up on a raddish farm where the conditions become increasingly bleak. And it is a novel against the backdrop of the food industry in the south of Europe and how much it depends on migrant labour. How much Europe depends on migrant labour, especially in the food industry. but also about how to build a life, how to make a room, your home, and what's essential to survive. And also finding home and your imagination and your dreams in a way.

Samia Aziz: 10:17

So we follow Happy on this on this journey where he goes from Punjab to to Europe, and he lands lands up in these quite difficult jobs. And you really go into detail about how difficult life can be for migrant workers. You shed light on some of the issues; Happy's entire situation is illegal anyway, he's caught up in some really awful crimes that are going on. What was really important for you to bring out about the immigrant experience in particular, when it comes to migrant workers?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 10:57

I think what was important is maybe bringing light to Germany's narratives, tragic stories that are not very much in the limelight or known in Europe. And from my perspective, speaking from where I was born and raised in Germany, this is not something that is talked about quite often, but North Indian communities in Italy, and how really since the 90s, late 90s, the Grana Padano production, a product, a cheese that is regarded as quintessentially Italian is in Indian hands and North Indian hands. And there are parallels, so the asparagus season harvest in Germany is in Eastern European hands. And I think there are probably comparable situation from the UK as well, that might come to your mind. So this is something I just wanted to go into, but also in a wider sense to just look at the fate or that story, which might seem like a seemingly small in the grand scheme of things, and seemingly a story that might not leave a mark -seemingly hopes and dreams that never were realised. But that nonetheless left an imprint and how every story like this is important and needs to be told. And not all of them are told. And so, yes, just to try. And it's just an attempt to, you know, tell the story.

Samia Aziz: 12:24

So what was your process? Did you do research into the food industry, especially the experiences on migrant workers? Did you speak to people? What was your process

Celina Baljeet Basra: 12:29

So the reason why this story sort of like? started going around in my mind so early as a teenager, is because stories like these, they did happen in my surroundings, my family surroundings when I was a kid. So it was prompted by a few of these stories that shot parallels. Happy is a fictional character, that's very important. But all the realities and facts that are behind and maybe even also, the stories of Happy are and all the colleagues he encounters on his way, they find inspiration in real life. So that's one aspect. And then, of course, I did do a lot of research. And if you look, there's a lot to be found, asI spoke to people who have been working on these matters for a long time. But what I also realised is that there is so when I tried to speak to sort of activists who've been working on that matter, for some time Italian activist, it quite quite difficult to talk to them, because there's a lot of security issues around the work, it's quite dangerous things to do. So that wasn't easy, and also to talk to actual workers, because the conditions are not by the books, because I allude to certain structures that I don't even want to begin to fully unravel, but certain things are known, certain connections are known - how these syndicates smuggle people, not just in these instances of North Indians to Italy, but also in other instances, and how they are connected to much larger structures of crime globally. And this is not just happening in Italy, of course, it's also important, but the novel focuses on this particular community. So I did a lot of reading, watched a lot of documentaries on the matter, also the journey crossing, you know, into Europe, sometimes by foot by boat, etc.

Samia Aziz: 14:38

Was there anything that you discovered throughout your research process that was particularly alarming? Because I'm guessing you went in with a level of knowledge, especially from the stories of people that you knew what was there anything that really took you by surprise?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 14:55

I think there's a North Indian community in Italy that leads very different lives. Now they've been around for some time. And there is a new generation, you know, as it happens, the story takes place around 2010. I think it's been going on since the 90s. And what for me, I guess when I first researched about it, which one now was quite some time ago, that I first learned about it, how dangerous the journeys really are, because there was just one person which was not, you know, there was no family connection, but an acquaintance of my father's. And I think he crossed in a similar way, as Happy did, but if you do, you rarely talk about it. Because it is precisely as it is so dramatic. And so then researching the real dangers, and then actually crossing mountains by foot, freezing limbs, and how many then die. And of course, we read about the boats crossing the Mediterranean all the time daily, it's for many bad reasons in the news all the time. But yeah, so this aspect of the journey, how there are so many ways in which the journey itself can be fatal. That's something that for me was, apart from many other facts about accommodation as a planter or Farmhand, which can also be okay, and can be very, very bad. So there's a range, there's a real spectrum of ways in which this can work and go about but also, quite a recurring number of suicides in these crowded conditions of working on farms in Europe, and not just Indian communities, of course, but this is what I looked into.

Samia Aziz: 16:54

That's really, really shocking, I think, really sad. But I think really important as well, to understand that side, or actually just understand in general, exactly what's going on. Because I think so many of us are just not aware, like we know that, that there is this thing that is happening, we know that people are being smuggled, when we kind of know at the back of our mind somewhere that these things are happening, but maybe we don't linger long enough to really think about exactly what's happening. And so I think the story of Happy really does such a good job in bringing forward some of those really harsh realities, and forcing us to think about what's happening and the role that we can or can't play within that. And I thought that the character of Happy is so, so clever, like just, I just really, really love the character. I don't think I know a character quite like him. And one of the things that I really liked about Happy is he has these imaginary conversations with journalists. And usually when he's in the outhouse, and it's really funny, because I think a lot of us have some variation of that, like when we're in the shower, either we're like singing, pretending that we're popstars, or like, I tend to have imaginary conversations with people that I really want to say something to. But I don't I don't say those for a variety of reasons. But it's kind of like the space where you can have these sort of like deep rooted, maybe like the frustration you want to get out or you want to you want to tell someone how badly they hurt you in the past, or you just want to tell someone how wrong they were for doing something. And for for Happy, he does it in the form of journalists. But I wonder for you, where the seed was for that, like why you decided to do that, or what what really is behind that.

Celina Baljeet Basra: 18:53

I think its a combinaion of things you That's really, that's really interesting. But I think like already mentioned just now that we all might do this and variations, like imagine conversations, imagine an audience for something we do as a child, if you have these aspirations of fame. If you're exposed to cinema, TV, or want to be a singer, and then you sing for an imaginary audience, you dance for the crowd, you and to be quite honest, I think when I was a toddler, quite a small child, I do remember. I do remember learning to use a proper bathroom, and then wanting to have a chat. And I think I had these imaginary what about the character of Happy? What do you think having interviews while told people where I lived about my parents. So it really is something the seed is from my own live chat. that space in his life was doing for him as the person that he is? So if I do think, if your interview, and this also goes for what we're doing just now, there's an aspect where you have to be quite clear on either what you're talking about, or about who you are. So an interview sort of constitutes a sense of self in a way, especially if you do an imaginary one. So you basically just want to know who you are. So if someone asked you, who are you? What are you doing? What are your dreams? And what will your tomorrow be about? What are your goals? You know, and so this is something that we long for; maybe someone asking us all these questions, especially as a child, and it doesn't happen for all of us. Some kids are asked a lot of questions by their parents. So you make them up, and you make this whole little world up. I guess that's also part of the function.

Samia Aziz: 21:00

That's really interesting. And I think there is something in that, because we could ask ourselves those questions, we could write them down, we could, however, we want to explore those. But I think there is there is really something different in somebody else asking you - just the idea that there is somebody or people that are interested in you in what you're doing. I think there's something really, I don't know, there's something really profound about that.

Celina Baljeet Basra: 21:31

Absolutely, it's a sort of someone saying, Well done, we want to know more. And that's, I mean, it can be scary, because then you're afraid what to say. I might in these moments, I don't know, begin to talk about this book, something you'd ramped up and then did and now it's out in the world. And yeah, for Happy, definitely, it's a sort of practising something in a safe space. What what's space can be safer than you know, this confined little outhouse. Anyway.

Samia Aziz: 22:05

I loved hearing you talk about that. It was one of my favourite parts of the book. It's just so interesting to see it on paper, because I think it is something that a lot of us do, but we don't talk about these imaginary conversations. We have, you know, in the close spaces in our homes. But one of the reasons why Happy leaves his home is because his family farmland has been taken over by a company who was building a theme park called Wonderland. Now, where did the idea of Wonderland come from? Because it sounds horrific. There are there are there are rides that basically regurgitate trauma from history, right? There was one that was mimicking the train ride between now India and Pakistan where people were killed on both sides, right. Like, it's just awful. It just sounded like an absolute nightmare, not like a wonderland. And also like it sounded almost satirical. So I don't know. I just wondered what like where that came from for you. What what are you aiming to achieve?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 23:29

I understand that question! First of all, I've been sort of for some years, been interested in the idea of parks and amusement parks, and especially because amusement parks across Asia, sometimes are the simulacra of Europe. Like, we know that the Disney Castle is a copy of the castle, Moishe Valentine in the south of Germany, and Bavaria. So, and when I was in Shanghai, there was like a fake little Paris. You know, then you have similar things, wonderful theme parks across Japan. And one interesting story is how near Big Beijing, there was like a giant copy of the Disney Castle being built, but then abandoned because the company went bankrupt. And now you have these big concrete skeleton looming in the landscape. And local farmers actually took up are informal roles as guides. So they guide people through this abandoned concrete, skeleton, ghostly, amusement park, and amusement parks for me of something uncanny as well. So I curated an exhibition in 2017, which was called Park, and I looked into that idea, and also the idea what how parks are these confined Safe Space spaces of leisure and that the internet is a park in a way social media. Instagram is a part are sort of a confined space with certain rules where we can spend our free time. And so there is a real Wonderland near DeLanda. But this Wonderland in the story is entirely fictional. And my thinking was that these extrapolated versions of rights quite satirical, as you say, the partition ride and the rocky ride. I think they partly exist, the rocky ride exists. So rocky really is quite a big thing in the Punjab. He's loved very much beloved. But the other ones might also be Happy's imagination of rights, you know, when you stand around in a boring job all day, and then you just begin to daydream. There was a version of the book where there was a lot more narrative taking place in Wonderland, but then that also changed in the editing process. But yeah, it was just a way to sort of have see the idea of the, you know, copies of European monuments, combined with weird and strange rights, that he may be things up, and in reality, it might be quite a dreary place to work at.

Samia Aziz: 26:17

That's interesting, because I didn't pick up on that, that he had made, like, like, potentially made it up about these arrays, but I guess, you know, obviously, well, you leave it open.

Celina Baljeet Basra: 26:31

It's just a possibility. You know, at one point, I wasn't sure myself. But um, I think it's possible that he might.

Samia Aziz: 26:39

It's interesting, because theme parks are very strange places, in that you voluntarily go on to a ride or into a room where you know, you're going to be scared. You can see from the outside, what's going to happen, like, you know, exactly, if you go on a roller coaster, you know, you're going to be turned upside down 17 times in 30 seconds, right, like, you know that it's gonna happen. And still, we voluntarily put ourselves through that. And I can't imagine that you would do something like that, if it wasn't in the theme park, like you wouldn't, for example, like, I don't know, like, a walk into in the middle of a race or something you weren't, you wouldn't like to run in front of running horses or something, you wouldn't do anything dangerous, or anything that would that would potentially scare you so much. But in the theme park, it's so strange how those things are completely fine. And when you walk around, if you're on foot, or you hear from different directions, there's people screaming. And again, like, you really want to be in a place, they weren't the one to walk down the road if you hear people screaming around you. But it's so strange how in a theme park, the rules are so different.

Celina Baljeet Basra: 27:57

Definitely, and I never liked it myself. I avoid them if I can. But I watched horror movies, I must admit, like the theme park experience of a wild roller coaster sort of a longing or lust for being scared and thinking I might die. It's like, I don't like it. But people do. And what I do find interesting is these miniature worlds, or universes that are being built, where you think like, oh, now there's a minature Paris. As a child, I remember if there was like a miniature version of themselves, and I could walk through and encounter it. There was similar fun, but very tame, of course, and boring, ultimately. But yeah, it's interesting what you say that the longing for danger, but in the end, I think people only do it because they know or they think they know that nothing will happen. So it's this idea that everything will be fine in the end, but I can experience the idea of, you know, the simulation of danger, or I don't know what.

Samia Aziz: 28:56

There is definitely that sense of, like safety, like, I know that it'll be okay. I know, there's been safety checks. I mean, accidents do happen. But overall, I think there is definitely there is that sort of sense of comfort. But, you know, this will only go so far as obviously like in real life outside of a theme park. You don't know what would happen. So yeah, that's definitely true. In the book, you write about the food industry. But there's a lot about just food, like you go into a lot of detail about radishes. And also when when he's working at the restaurant, like there's a lot of description about food, and it's very interesting, but why did you decide to sort of go into the depth that you did and what was it like for you exploring that what were you interested in bringing out?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 29:49

I think that it's I think at the very bottom bottom of it is a personal curiosity. You know, just trying to look behind the things we encounter every day, or maybe questioning myself, Okay, I'm eating the supermarket radish, what is it actually like, whereas what, you know, when then sort of looking into the idea, and because Happy is sort of a professional Googler, he sort of wants to research that in a certain way. And I can really sympathise with that. Because sometimes, especially if you grew up in a non academic household, and there's not like big bookshelves around and you don't have access to all this knowledge at your fingertips, you try to gain access as much as you can by yourself, but you might still mispronounce things because you only read them, you might do this all your life, I still do sometimes. And I think it's definitely that case, we're happy that he has the big hunger for actual like food, but also for knowledge and to build worlds. But also in a very sort of scatter minded way. So sometimes not going in depth, but really, definitely wanting to, to know more to this Frank place where he has to show up just to as a runner, but he wants to really, you know, know about trying to feel safe to you present all this knowledge, which is not necessary in that case. Yeah, I guess that was my motivation. Also personal interest, of course. Sort of building this whole world around the food, which is so central to the novel also is, of course, always an essential thing to root ourselves to make a home to build a home to feel at home when you're not.

Samia Aziz: 31:46

That's really interesting. I thought the level of detail that you enter, I thought was so interesting. And when it made complete sense, because especially in like Happy's, opening - the cover letter - there seems to be such an attachment for him with with food and such an interest as well. Obviously, he comes from a farming family in in Punjab, so it kind of makes sense. I just thought it was, it was really interesting. When you were writing the book, did you plan the plotline? Or did you sort of decide as you went along? What did what was that like?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 32:31

I think because this book has been percolating for so many years, I think, probably 20 years, there are a whole little universe of references. But when I started writing this book, and I had the cover letter, one thing that was always clear was the ending, so I knew where it was going to go. And then there were different sort of scenes locations, and maybe there was initially a big emphasis on some that are not as long now, and might be places that don't feature anymore. So yeah, it was really a sculpting it from the narratives I had in mind. And then, because it is written in the way it is written in these sort of short vignettes, you might call them, it worked very well. And then the editing process, I had a fantastic, wonderful editor, Deborah. And that really helped because I think I also enjoyed spending time in this world so much that I could have gone on forever. So it was necessary to close the circle in the end.

Samia Aziz: 33:46

So there are books that that have this sort of like non traditional nonlinear format, but overwhelmingly not so many. Linear prose is still a very traditional form of literature. So did you find any challenges within your publishing journey? Have you been concerned about how the book may be received because of its form?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 34:11

Well, I think initially, sort of before sending out to anyone. But I do feel that from the beginning, my editor understood what I wanted to do. So that was amazing. And I needed that. And I also understood that not everyone would, and I also understand that that's fine. I do follow all these, maybe the worry that it is, too scattered or difficult, but now in the form I found in the end, I feel it's around the thing for me, after all this time. So, yeah, I was lucky to encounter people along the way who understood what I wanted to do. And yet still so happy about that. Really, so thankful.

Samia Aziz: 35:00

I'm just interested because although it looks like maybe a scattered form is easier to write because it's like smaller sections. And you don't have to be in full flow all the time. But I actually think it's very difficult to keep up the momentum of the story. And to build the characters, if you sometimes are only writing like a few, a few words on a page or a few sentences, and you're writing like a script or a list or something. Did you ever feel that the novel was constrained by the different form? Or did you think that it enabled you actually to make it more rich?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 35:44

Definitely. I definitely think it enabled me to make it more rich, and also to flourish within that form and find more freedom within that form. Because I also realised I needed sort of confinement to then really go into it. Also, yeah, definitely, there was a time I needed to pay attention to consistency of a voice for sure. And, again, the editing process was very helpful to look at things with a certain distance. And I went down roads that were too much and stray too far from the central narrative. But then, in the end, I think it was so necessary for me to have all that at the back of my mind to understand, but then it doesn't show now, but it's still there for me. So that was necessary. Definitely. And that helped a lot to then cut it down to something that.

Samia Aziz: 36:42

And so you said it was a work in progress, essentially, for like, 16 years? Or maybe I don't know, how many years but a long time. What was what was that like? I have spoken to a lot of authors that say, I've worked on a novel for 10 years. And I'm just always mind blown by that. How did you stay committed to the story for so long? Especially because I know you weren't, you don't always have a lot of time to spend writing on it. So how did it just stay on the back burner in your life for so long?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 37:19

I think, also, just to say that I didn't probably write this book for, such an amount of time. The first idea I had when I was 16. And I tried to write this story and have a lot of beginnings, different versions, that we're all sort of put away in a cupboard, old computers. And some, I don't even have any more all of these drafts. But they are all somehow form part of this book. Even if you can't read them anymore. But they're at the back of the story at the back of my mind. And in the end, this story needed to be written a lot faster to stay, as you say, also in the flow of the virus in two to three years. And then, you know, the editing process that was necessary for me, because I like to write sort of, in the morning Fast and Furious, you know, let it flow. So yeah, I think that I was just so it was, I had such a motivation to get at the bottom of the story to try to understand the character that became the fictional Happy that it stayed with me for so long. And I sort of knew I had to write it, although, of course, I had other ideas and started other things. But this was there was a big pool into that story.

Samia Aziz: 38:51

And so you said earlier on that it was only once you've really started to explore Happy, his voice, and you started to write from Happy, that you that he kind of as a character with you, like came alive for you. As I said before, as well, like Happy has a very striking voice. I guess. It's really, almost like clear who he is. But how did you decide to build all the different parts of his personality? Like where he is and who he is, in terms of like his family? Where did that construction of the main character come from?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 39:26

I wish I could really explain it in a coherent way. This is something that really sort of poured out. Once I finally found the entry. It did. I'm not sure whether that sounds like a cliche, but there were so many attempts before and I think I needed to have that first person to get into shoes. Although no I can never fully get into his shoes. That's very clear. But I try to and then this character sort of emerged from, you know, how do characters emerge from all the bits and pieces that Chris Seated as the air myself, my family, the stories I knew. And yeah, and also had a lot of, you know, I found it challenging at first for many years to write male characters to be honest and then happy as I needed someone as happy as a special or weirdo. As happy to do that.

Samia Aziz: 40:23

Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting because I, a few months ago, I interviewed an author called Marjon Kamali. So she's the author of The Stationery Shop of Tehran. And she said that one of the things that she does, is she writes diary entries from the perspective of her characters. And she's like, more often than not, like most of the time, they don't, that piece of writing doesn't end up in the book. But she's just like, that is what helps me really understand the character. And I thought that was so profound. Because if you think about a diary entry, like you're completely uninhibited, you're writing about your deepest fears, your deepest sort of desires, and yearnings. And you're just really unfiltered, saying how strongly you feel about somebody how much you hate something, or how much you love something in a way that as a person, you may not be able to say those things to people in their real life. And I just thought it was such like a, an interesting tool to use. And it sounds like you've had a very similar experience in trying to understand Happy.

Celina Baljeet Basra: 41:29

Absolutely, I think it's beautiful. What she did was very similar. And I think it was writing like this that led to the cover letter, sort of deconstructed cover letter, a different idea of an anti cover letter. And that sort of led into this the story. Yeah, that's a beautiful, beautiful practice and tool. She developed there. It helps.

Samia Aziz: 41:56

I really enjoyed listening to you talk about that now as well. It's really interesting, because I think it sort of, like authors have such different ways of doing things. And sometimes I've had authors tell me that this character just came to me almost fully formed, which I always find really fascinating as well. But sometimes that doesn't happen, right? Sometimes you need to really dig deep to explore who this who is going to carry forward the story. So it's really, really interesting. As a writer, have you faced any challenges in sort of getting your first book published, and just almost like finding the time to write but just in being a writer in general?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 42:41

Oh, you know, what I think is probably the first or biggest challenge was to always wanting to write. I think, since I was a little child, but then not allowing myself to because I once I started entering academia, and

Samia Aziz: 42:56

And do you have any advice, I guess for budding you know, working as an art historian, a curator, partly sort of looking at other people's work and critiquing it or reviewing it, or deciding whether it was good or not, or thinking in these categories. That didn't help. I think I was blocked for many years, because I always felt like I'm not good enough. Never good enough. Never sharing anything with anyone, until I started doing sort of writing workshops, which very much felt as like a safe space with a writer, and a group of fellow writers in Berlin, and then allowing myself to say, Okay, this, this could be what I do now. And I can admit to myself finally, that I might send something out. And the funny thing is that the very first thing I found out was just a small, beautifully made magazine called first page mag, which sort of they beautifully printed like a newspaper, they put it in bookstores, and it landed on the page of Alex, who's now my agent in New York. And he wrote to me, and I've been working on Happy on the story. And he asked him whether, you know, there's something I'm working on and said, Yes. And so really, I in that sense, after all these years of struggling to building up the confidence, somehow the stars aligned. And I had this happy moment where I found an entry into something which is so difficult otherwise, so I can't even begin to imagine and that of course, helped a lot to to push the book to the to the finishing line where it was ready to be sent out. And then yeah, it was a funny story. I actually gave birth to my daughter one and a half years ago and the book found its home publishing health Astra health a few weeks after. You know that her first year was spent editing. And yeah, it's been it's been a great two wonderful past years. Definitely. And I was very, very lucky. And even though parts of course, were exhausting, and it was a lot of work, but also love poured into it, and definitely the book as well. And they were lovely moments writing the book, when you know, I was researching and also, I spent some time in Italy to write beautiful occasions, which was a nice change. But, yeah, definitely allowing yourself the time working freelance to carve out space. writers?

Celina Baljeet Basra: 45:51

Oh definitely. I think for me, it was definitelysometimes so lonely. You write in your little chamber, but finding a community. And that doesn't have to be a feel like an MA, or MFA or whatever, it can be a writing workshop, you attend a writing group, a book group, that finding a sort of safe space in which to allow yourself to grow and not be scared. Because there's so many anxieties about putting out pieces of work and art that are, you know, it really also feel like babies and being scared of what other people might think. But the work can grow so much more once you do that, and helped me to build up that courage.

Samia Aziz: 46:43

And I think my final question for you today is, what do you hope people will take away from from Happy?

Unknown: 46:50

Oh, oh, that's interesting. So for me, along the journey, I sort of fell in love with Happy as a character, you know, and he, I became so close and so fond of him and to sort of, to be a companion with him on that journey for a while, and then somehow feel as if maybe his life touched you a little bit. That's how I feel about books, right. And sometimes you can even map out, I have memories that are actually books, but I feel sometimes like they're my own and, or, you know, dream about things that you know, so, but also, you know, to laugh and to cry in equal measure, like, like a good Bollywood movie, you would do too, you know, because the lightness and darkness are definitely intertwined, but I never wanted to, you know, give that sort of moral way down, but just to, you know, you can you can encounter as well and then make up your own mind. Do your own research like he does? Yeah, just to touch lives to make people happy in a way to.

Samia Aziz: 48:06

That's so lovely. And I think I think he will, I think he will end the book. Because, you know, as I said, like, it just it gives us so many things to think about, post some real questions about, like, life or what it means to be a person and the ability that we have to touch the lives of other people like, you know, happy touches the lives of everyone that he meets and encounters. And then obviously, like, there's something really quite sombre about the book as well, but we won't give away any spoilers right now. Virtually there. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you. Thank

Unknown: 48:39

Thank you so much. It was a lovely time. Really, really lovely,

Samia Aziz: 48:46

Thank you so much to Celina for such a lively and interesting conversation. I've really enjoyed every moment of it and I hope that you who are listening to too, if you enjoyed the podcast, please follow the diverse bookshelf on your podcast platform of choice and connect with me on social media. I would really appreciate it if you could rate or leave a review, as it helps more people find the show