On the show this week, I’m speaking to Assia Belgacem a French-Algerian writer and book critic based in Bordeaux, France. Assia runs the Instagram account, @shereadsox, where she writes nuanced book reviews and gives excellent book recommendations. In this episode, we talk about Assia’s identity: Algerian and French, and also about being Muslim in an increasingly right-wing, France. With hijab bans in place in the country, Assia works as a teacher in a government school, where she is unable to cover her hair. We talk about so much, including French and Algerian history, political activism, books and so much more.
At the time of recording, It has been almost 70 days since the beginning of Israel’s most recent war on Gaza, where so far over 20,000 people have been killed. Thousands are still trapped under rubble, and shortages of food and water are becoming lethal. Naturally, we talked about Palestine today, too.
Assia's work focuses on decolonization, French politics and African/Swana literature.
Follow Assia on instagram:
www.instagram.com/shereadsox
As always, I hope this episode is interesting and enjoyable! Connect with me on social media, as I'd love to hear from you.
www.instagram.com/readwithsamia
www.instagram.com/thediversebookshelfpod
On the show this week, I’m speaking to Assia Belgacem a French-Algerian writer and book critic based in Bordeaux, France. Assia runs the Instagram account, @shereadsox, where she writes nuanced book reviews and gives excellent book recommendations. In this episode, we talk about Assia’s identity: Algerian and French, and also about being Muslim in an increasingly right-wing, France. With hijab bans in place in the country, Assia works as a teacher in a government school, where she is unable to cover her hair. We talk about so much, including French and Algerian history, political activism, books and so much more.
At the time of recording, It has been almost 70 days since the beginning of Israel’s most recent war on Gaza, where so far over 20,000 people have been killed. Thousands are still trapped under rubble, and shortages of food and water are becoming lethal. Naturally, we talked about Palestine today, too.
Assia's work focuses on decolonization, French politics and African/Swana literature.
Follow Assia on instagram:
www.instagram.com/shereadsox
As always, I hope this episode is interesting and enjoyable! Connect with me on social media, as I'd love to hear from you.
www.instagram.com/readwithsamia
www.instagram.com/thediversebookshelfpod
Hello, and welcome to The Diverse Bookshelf with me, Samia Aziz. On this show, I interview incredible authors doing a deep dive into important themes and issues while talking or things books. I'm really excited about this week's guest on the show. Today I'm speaking to Assia Belgacem, a French Algerian writer and book critic based in Bordeaux, France. Assia runs the Instagram account, Sheradsox, where she writes nuanced book reviews and gives excellent book recommendations. In this episode, we talk about Assia's identity, Algerian and French and also about being Muslim in an increasingly right wing France. With hijab bans in place in the country. Assia works as a teacher in a government school, where she is unable to cover her hair. We talk about so much, including French and Algerian history, political activism, books, and so much more. At the time of recording, it has been almost 70 days since the beginning of Israel's most recent war on Gaza. So far over 20,000 people have been killed 1000s are still trapped under rubble and shortages of food and water are becoming lethal. Naturally, we talked about Palestine today too. Assia's work focuses on decolonization, French politics, and African and SWANA literature. Hello asiyah, assalaamu alaykum. Welcome. Welcome to the diverse bookshelf. Thank you so much for coming on to the show. How are you?
Assia Belgacem:Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's a really big honour for me. How I am doing? I'm fine. And I'm well, I guess, I mean, with what's happening in Palestine. I can't say I'm doing well, but I'm definitely doing well compared to Palestinians on the ground and the Palestinian diaspora.
Samia Aziz:I feel the same way, like alhamdulillah, I'm in good health, I'm eating, I'm sleeping. I'm doing all of those kinds of things. And I say I'm sleeping. I'm not sleeping. I haven't been sleeping well, at all for the past few months. But overall, you know, I'm safe. I feel so weird to feel so physically comfortable. When we know what's happening, and we see it in front of our eyes every single day. It's a really strange, really strange situation.
Assia Belgacem:I think there's also a lot of guilt in us for just for just for being alive, for having a roof over our heads for being able to disconnect, for being able to sleep, which is such a basic need that a lot of Palestinians cannot get because of the bombings right now. So also, I find it amazing that we can actually disconnect like that our brain can disconnect us from what's going on for a matter of hours. But it's also for us, I think, a matter of survival. Because we have to work, we have to be safe, because speaking about Palestine in workplaces is very, very difficult and can come with great consequences. So I think our brain knows what to do. And so we disconnect, but I know that for me, as soon as I'm out of work - out of the workplace, and in my usual safe space, and the first thing I do is go back to Instagram to check what's going on in Palestine.
Samia Aziz:Absolutely. I hear you with that a lot. Because I mean, I have the privilege of working freelance at the moment. Even as somebody that works freelance, I have contracts with various organisations and businesses, and you have to think about how an organisation is dealing with the issue. Are they saying anything? I mean, is there an environment where you can speak about it? Or is there just simply not? And I think that it's a growing hostile environment around the world. And I think especially in the West, and in France, where you are; in the UK, where I am, our political leaders are basically justifying what is going on, and are so heavily in support of the State of Israel. It leaves any sort of resistance or protest, sometimes even conversations, an actual like punishable crime, which is really scary. And I think we'll come back to this a little bit, but I just want to talk a little bit about you. So you are a book critic, a book blogger. And you also write. So I wondered if you could just tell us a little bit about what you do? What you're interested, what you're interested in writing about and how your journey is going.
Assia Belgacem:So, I ended up writing because I have a lot to say. And I felt that the longer I kept it inside, the worse it got for me, because I got a lot of frustration from not being able to express myself. And being in France, doesn't make it easy to express myself as a French, Algerian Muslim, hijabi, like all these parts of my identity. But I really felt a freedom within the English speaking community of Instagram. That's where I really found a way out for me; a way to express myself, because , even when I started on Bookstagram, back in the days, I was pretty much the only French Bookstagram wearing a hijab, so Muslim wearing a hijab. And I realised that I was censoring myself so much, I didn't see the point of being on Instagram. So I've just started unfollowing a lot of people I used to follow. So French bookstagrammers, because their content didn't speak to me, and it didn't help me express myself the way I wanted. And so slowly, I was moving towards more British, American bookstagrammers, most of the time, it was people of colour close to. That's when I was like, wow, they're really just being open about anything. And that's when I realised I was actually censoring myself. So it's really within the English speaking community worldwide, that I find myself able to express myself. So when I express myself, it's mostly in English, it's very rarely in French, and I write for platforms for English speaking platforms, the New Arab, Middle East Eye, Arasif, with both Arabic speaking and English speaking. And because I feel safe. And we're also learning from the English speaking platform and from the English speaking world. So I know that what I'm going to say, is not going to be groundbreaking; is not going to be taking as an offence. So people are not going to feel threatened by what I say, because I'm learning from them. And so I'm also repeating what I'm learning. And I also get a space where I can express myself as someone who is French, because my views as a French are not really tolerated in France. And I rarely speak about my experience as a French person with within French platforms. So that's something I always say, it's not always black and white, we do have spaces in France, where people of colour, Muslim people can speak freely. But within the context, the context of French politics, it still comes with repercussions and it's taking risks. And I'm not sure I want to put myself in that space. Because my goal is to find a platform where I can speak freely. So freedom of expression, which is very claimed to in France, but not applied to everyone. So I'm looking for a platform where I have freedom speech, and where I will not put my safety at risk. Because the first goal for me is to protect myself, I really hate situations where I feel threatened. It's just not comfortable for anyone, not just for me. .
Samia Aziz:Exactly, and I think, as you said, like your safety is of paramount importance. And I think, we live in such an age where we can't always perceive like how dangerous it can be to say certain things, and the consequences - the short term and the long term consequences of doing certain things as well. And I do want to get into it a little bit about exactly what it's like, you know, as a Muslim woman living in France, but I want to talk a little bit about your French Algerian identity. France and Algeria have a very contentious history. And I think actually, a lot of people don't know, because it's not something that is massively talked about in schools. I don't think the average person walking down the street have much of a clue and I and I'm not particularly well versed in it to myself, but I can imagine that part of your identity is very at odds in some ways, and I just wonder if you could reflect on that.
Assia Belgacem:It is, in so many ways So first of all, it kind of makes sense that a lot of people are not aware of the Algerian history of colonisation by France. Because while most English speaking countries have ties to the UK, so it makes more sense again, it shouldn't be making sense to be honest. Because the history of British colonialism is not with Algeria. It's not with Morocco, is not with Tunisia. So these countries, it was mostly mostly mainly colonised by France. Even in in French history textbooks, you'll find very few things about the colonisation of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. So how it works for me as a French Algerian. So first of all, speaking of my identity, I always identify myself as Algerian and French. So in the intro I gave you I wrote French Algerian just because it flows better. That's it, there's no specific meaning behind it. So I did identify myself as Algerian, and then French, because in is just how I became. I was born Algerian, because I was born in Algeria, and grew up there for six years, and then came move to France. And so that's when it's like, this whole identity is Algerian, plus French. So it's something that was added to my original identity. And by coming to France, I never really broke that link with Algeria, pretty much all year long speaking Algerian at home, celebrating Algerian festivities, the Algerian independence. The fact that I was born - also going to brag a little bit, because I have to love my mom did a really good job - I was born on July the fifth, which is the Independence Day of Algeria. So that also plays a lot in my identity. And so we were, we are very much Algerian, and then we became French, so I kind of learned to be French. I learned the French society, how things work, the French norms. And so some of them are completely agree with some of them I don't agree with but it was the same way for Algerian society and my joint identity. Some of the things I agree with some of the things I don't, but I feel just more Algerian than French. And it also has repercussions on the language I speak. Even if French has also become my native language. I rarely use it. I read mostly in English, I really don't read a lot in French, unless it's something very important. And I have a specific intention and goal behind reading in French. Otherwise, I'm just never gonna go buy a book in French because oh, why now this book makes sense. I'm going to read it, this is just never gonna happen. And the very few times I did it, I ended up just not reading the book, again, because English gives me that that safety space, that I don't get in French. Every time I tried to read the book in French, I just can't go through with it. Or I read words that really traumatised me. So there's a word we use a that is used widely in France is ostentatoire. And it's usually used for religious signs. So there's a French law that says that some religious signs that are provocative, or forbidden, including the hijab, because it's too big people notice it. So it's forbidden, being France being a Laïcité country, so we're in Laïcité is is the norm. So you don't you can't show your religion in, in government spaces. So in schools or at work if you work if you have been paid by the government, etc. So this word is very traumatising. For me, I have the worst experience with this word. So I started reading a book, it was about Algeria. And it was written by an Algerian, and the last thing I expected in this book is that word. So that word was used. I think it was on page 10. And I was so shocked. I closed the book. I never opened it again. And I know that the book is really good. It's really great. It's about the Algerian trauma, because of colonisation, so the content is probably amazing. But I just couldn't go past page 10 because of that word.
Samia Aziz:Was that book originally written in French?
Assia Belgacem:Yes, originally written in French and the author is someone really good. Her research is amazing about enduring trauma. It's called Colonial Trauma by Karima Lazali. It's a very good book, I just need to go past page 10. And I need to go past that word, but I just can't remove it. I don't know why it just, I haven't found, I guess this trend to go back to that book. And just ignore that word.
Samia Aziz:Do you think there are other people that have a similar relationship as you do to that particular word? In France?
Assia Belgacem:I'm pretty sure yes, I'm pretty sure that hijabis and Muslims hate this word. It's used, you can use it for everything. But it's only used for Islam, and specifically, the hijab.
Samia Aziz:I see. And so to describe other religious symbols like say, like the cross that Christians wear for example, is there another word that is used or could be used to describe that in the same context?
Assia Belgacem:You could say provocative, but is a huge cross really provocative? It's not really that provocative. It's this relationship that France has with the hijab, that again, goes back to the colonisation. During the Algerian colonisation, France had a massive propaganda to make a German woman remove their hijab. And the poster literally said, remove your hijab, you'll be more beautiful. So it's a very, it's a very deep relationship. It's not just about Islam. It's not just religion, its religion and colonisation, and also the fact that after a 132 years, France lost Algeria, which wasn't considered as a colony, it was Algeria was part of France. It was very different from Morocco and Tunisia, because from Morocco and Tunisia, the word they use is a protectorate, which is just another way to say colonisation, but for Algeria, Algeria was part of France, it was called French Algeria. So the relationship that France has with the hijab is not necessarily just linked to religion itself, goes back to religion, to colonisation, to the fact that they lost after 132 years that Algeria became independent. But we were able to express ourselves the fact that we resisted the fact that we actually use this to resist because during the year, because during the war, a lot of men used to wear the traditional, Algerian hijab, which isn't really a hijab is just, it's kind of like a huge piece of fabric that we use to cover, just kind of like an abayah, but not really an abayah. And so you could use that and you could also hide your face with it. Okay, and so men use that as disguise, oh, Algerian men who are resisting the colonisation. So there's like, I think France is not ready to accept a lot of things has yet to accept a lot of things. And so the way I see it, I'm not sure if it is accurate or not, but the way I feel it, I feel like it's kind of taking its anger out on us, or it's regrets on us. So that's also why I feel very conflicted on my French identity. I just can't just can't be at peace with my French identity because they don't let me be at peace with my French identity.
Samia Aziz:That's really, really interesting because I think so much of almost like the the surge and Islamophobia around the world happened in a post 9/11 world more than anything. Before of course, there has always been othering and racism and all that kind of stuff, but I think the surge of it and like the politicisation of it has happened in this 9/11 world. But what is really fascinating is to understand that when it comes to Algeria, it goes years and years back, and it adds such depth to understanding because I have always wondered, like, exactly why there's so much hatred for the hijab and I haven't been able to accept that it's just an Now thing because of the way in which it's playing out, feels very, very bizarre. And it's really interesting listening to you speak, actually because so I'm of Pakistani origin, and Pakistan is also a former colony of the UK. And so my parents came to the UK in the 60s and 70s. And I was born here. So I have a very different relationship to the UK than my parents did, yes. But in the way that you describe sort of holding on to Algeria, I saw my parents hold on to Pakistan. And now as a daughter of immigrants, and as a daughter of a former colonised people, the thing that I struggle with the most about being British is when I think about what Britain did to my people, during partition, but even before, like what they did, in terms of the divide and conquer what they did when they left, all that violence, and it was at the hands of the of the people who I am now living under and actually living a really wonderful life and having lots of freedom. So it's a constant sort of struggle, that I think I've always felt on some level, but only very recently, in the recent few years, maybe part partly because I've grown up but partly because I've been reading more and learning more, it's really hard to find a place for that. And I say that as like as, as a second generation immigrant.
Assia Belgacem:Actually, when I talk to children of immigrants, and then I talk to their parents who are immigrants, I feel much closer to the parents than to the children of immigrants in so many ways. Because I came here, and I was Algerian, period, just Algerian, and I had to learn how to, to integrate. I really don't like this word, but I had to learn to live in a French society and learn the codes of French society. And so deep down, I always was, I was always am, I'm still Algerian. And so many things happened that shocked me when I was very young. So I remember a few years after we came to France, I was in middle school. And we're talking about the fact that we are Arabs, with other Arab kids, etc. And there was that one teacher who said, you can never know that you're Arab. You can't know for sure that you're Arab. And I was like, I know, I'm Arab. Like, why are you saying you can be out of nowhere - this side to deny my identity, I know I'm Arab; I know I'm Algerian. And I know I'm North African, you're not going to tell me who I am. And so it's kind of like that very early on, I had to. And I think I didn't know it. I didn't do it in a conscious way. I was holding on to my identity because they were denied. So and then I had to live in France, where they were denying my identity, and they didn't like my first identity. So, there's so much conflict and things to resolve, and to be at peace with. But just again, there's so many things I can't be at peace with because they're always bringing it to the table. And if you want me to move past that, then you also have to move past that. And if you can move past the loss of Algeria, then I can move past my French identity because you're just not giving me space for it.
Samia Aziz:Yeah, absolutely. So in your experience, you came to France when you were six years old. Things have things have obviously over time, changed. What has your experience been like with that change? And I asked this question, because I feel like in common discourse, it's only been very recent, I'd say maybe five to 10 years, max, I would say that there's been an understanding that France is very right wing in its approach, maybe 15. I think there's not been that understanding. I now think about visiting France and feel like oh, I don't think I can, I can do it. But 15-20 years ago, I didn't have that same. So what has it been like in terms of - has it gotten more intense over the years? What was it like when you were younger? What's it like now?
Assia Belgacem:Okay, so for sure it's very, very white, right wing, it's honestly becoming scary for a lot of us to see the change that's happening in France. And when I say for a lot of us, I really honestly don't mean just us people of colour. But even white French people are like, okay, things are not really going well in France, what's happening to go to our country? Well, even before, so I came to France in 2000s. And even before that, France was very anti racist, there were a lot of marches against racism, there were a lot of movement. But now the same movements are not very well accepted. A lot of it's become normal to be racist, and to express your racism on TV. I never watch French TV, because every single time, they invite people who are so awkward outspoken about their racism, and it's freedom of expression, and under the label of freedom of expression, they say the worst things ever. And on a political level. Few years ago, the the right wing party of Marine LePen, and her father would never, never be accepted. Now, more people are voting for them. They're kind of like, the Trump of the USA. But you also have to know that Marine LePen is very, very racist, and wants to send North Africans and immigrants back to their home. But again, this has become a normal idea. Now, everyone is saying we have to send back bad immigrants to their home to their home country. So it used to be a very, very worrying extreme right wing party idea. But now it's become very normal. A lot of politicians are saying, yes, but immigration, but immigration, we have to send them back home. And so my mom and her father was fighting during the Algerian War of Independence. Obviously, he was with France, and he was against Algeria. So it's kind of difficult to imagine anything good coming from their party, that would be completely insane. Even if a lot of people put so much people are voting for them. It's scary, because now she actually has a chance to become president, fortunately. But also, unfortunately, we have a few years left with Macron who is also I mean, he's become, it's very, it's ridiculous. What has become a friend, it's really ridiculous. Because Macron said a few years ago that Zionism is anti semitism. And he said that I think it was like, two or three years ago. So it's not even it's not that recent, like he didn't say this, because of the recent events in Palestine, and October 7, etc. He said that way back then. And this is so scary, because you really, really understand that freedom speech, which is so dear to France is actually fake. It's a fallacy, like, who's going to believe you when you say this, when you say that freedom speech is important. And we have to uphold this concept when you say that anti Zionism is anti semitism, when there are two completely different things. So to answer your question, France is going towards an extremely severe and scary place, God protect us. Only thing I can say, because at this point, it's out of our hands. I'm not sure really what we can do. Because the more we try to fight this. I feel, the more the country and the ideas of politicians and ideas that they spread, become extreme.
Samia Aziz:I think that's the other thing that's really scary is that France is not alone in it move further. I think we're seeing it in many countries around the world, the UK, included, for sure. So you know, you just referenced that definition of anti Zionism? Well, I guess the definition is of anti semitism. And just yesterday, I looked up what it says on the UK Government website in terms of the definition, and this is this is back in 2016. There was a discussion about the fact that criticism of Israel and Zionism can be considered anti semitism, obviously, the wording is a little bit like unclear. It sort of leaves it down to the person experiencing it to determine whether or not they feel like it is anti semitic. And it is based on hatred. But it is definitely there. And I mean, we've seen it play out on massively over the last few months. For me, with the rhetorical around, the protests happening being labelled hate marches, with things being being banned, certain slogans been being banned, the use of certain words are definitely being bought into the public as being anti semitic, which is not true. So it's really frustrating. And it's really scary to see that development. And the reason why I asked you a little bit earlier on about if there was another word to describe the the religious symbol because the first time and this was years ago now, the first time I came across, or like I started to look into Frances ban on hijab, I wonder still being at school at that time. I remember reading that, oh, it's not just the hijab. It's any outward symbol. And they never at that time, it wasn't they never use the word provocative I remember my teacher saying, yes, so that would include a cross or the Kanga the Sikh brothers wear. And so that's what made me think like, oh, maybe, maybe that is that is still happening, but I guess if the if the actual wording is that it's a provocative symbol, that completely changes the tone of what we're talking about.
Assia Belgacem:Okay, so, in the law, it doesn't say provocative. Although you just told me, the translation of a word, words are I googled it like the English word for ostentatoire and it's ostentatious. Which means that it's kind of just, you can see too much, what it says is too much. So if you have a small cross, it's okay. But then being Muslim, how do you make your hijab small? If you want to wear an abayah, how do you make an so loaded. They're not just about their literal translation. abayah not too showy? I'm not going to cut it, then it's not an abaya. It's a mini dress, but the law was created, even if it says even if it says that it applies to all religious signs. It has been created for Muslims when two young girls who decided to wear the hijab, the law didn't exist when they wore the hijab at school, and they were expelled from school. And so it They have history and tones around them, which obviously, created this huge national debate around religious signs, religious signs at school, but when you see who is doing, who is wearing religious signs, like in France, which people which part of the demographic is being based practising their religion in a way that you can see it? Whom, honestly? Muslims. Even if like, we know, and you especially know, what is what is they don't say they don't say it. We know it. It was created, because of us. And especially for us. meant by this word. Exactly. So even if it says it because you can see it too much. So what's the problem? If you see that I'm, so does it does this mean that I'm too muslim for you? But it's my life, if I don't want to, if I want to be too Muslim, I don't care if it's for you. Like I don't care about but the problem is that with this law, we take into account, we don't take us into account. We take how other people feel about it. And I couldn't care less about how people feel about me if I'm Muslim, and I want to wear and abayah, and I want to work it out, then I'm just going to do it. But the problem is that it's flashy and showy. It makes people uneasy. They don't want to see me. And also we have this whole idea in front of that because we refuse to acknowledge the word race, because we say race races don't exist and racism don't exist. So if we we want everybody to be similar. We don't want to discriminate someone based on their religion. But I'm Algerian. At this point, if you just look on my face, you're going to know 99% that I'm Muslim. So what shall I do next? So you're not gonna discriminate me because of my religion. At some point, I'm just not going to fast. I'm just going to fast. And I'm going to be at school, I'm going to be someone who's going to tell me, do you want to eat this? And I'm going to be like, No, I'm fasting, I'm Muslim. So how are you not going to discriminate me, you're going to know either way, regardless of the way I dress that I'm Muslim. And even if you don't discriminate me based on my religion, then then you're going to discriminate me based on my ethnicity. So what shall I do? Shall I change the way I look? So I change my hair colour? Should I? I don't have blue eyes, like what can I do? And so it just doesn't make sense for us. But I completely understand that this law makes sense for for them. Absolutely very convenient for them. It's not convenient for us. That's something I want to mention that in France, we have very few Muslim private schools, I think we have only one or two max. And private schools are also funded by the government, a lot of the schools that the government is not going to fund them anymore. So it's very difficult for private schools, especially if they're Muslim private schools to survive. Without any other funding. However, there are so so many Catholic private schools, funded by the government. So one thing I don't understand is when you go to a Catholic school, and all due respect to my Christian friends, I have nothing against any any other religion. I don't understand, even if you explain it to me, how there can be a Catholic school funded by the government. And so you have a huge cross. But then if I work there, I can't wear hijab. Maybe there's something I'm missing out, honestly. And if anyone knows, I would love please explain to me, if this is a genuine asking, it's not even like ironic.
Samia Aziz:You mentioned that there are very few Muslim private schools, what's the situation with mosques?
Assia Belgacem:We have quite a lot of mosques pretty much everywhere, is really no problem with that. Although sometimes, it's very hard to to get a specific land where you want to build your mosque, sometimes they can be tricky to get that land. Because, well, who wants a mosque? In a certain neighbourhood, we don't want to so we're going to make it hard for you to build your mosque there, we're not going to give you access, we're not going to let you buy this land or whatever. But when it comes to mosques, so far, there's no real problem around it unless there are some that I'm not aware of. Because also, I think I need to mention this. I do my best to stay away from French politics when it comes to my identity. Because otherwise, I think I'd be depressed 24/7 And I'm really trying to survive.
Samia Aziz:I completely understand that. So what what do you think is the experience of young people growing up in France, where when they go to school, or they go to university, they can't wear hijab, for example? I'm just trying to understand like, exactly what impact that has on people beyond just what they buy, if you know what I mean for their wardrobe.
Assia Belgacem:I think my experience is very personal, but I think there are parts of it that are also general too many other Muslims, and I'll speak for Muslim women wear the hijab. So back in the days when I was in high school, I was pretty much the only one in the entire high school, okay, we were maybe two, three, my sister, another friend, and me in the entire school wearing the hijab. You get used to it. Once you're in front of the high school, you have to remove your hijab, and then you get into school without the hijab. I did this for three entire years. I forgot one single time and the head of the school I thought she was going to attack me she wait she came towards me in She was almost running. And she faced me like, iand spoke in french very rapidly, saying, Excuse me, miss, in a in a harsher tone. This is a high school, so you have to remove your scarf. And in my entire three years, it was the only time I forgot about it. The only time and I was very good students, you know, when you want, you want to be the good immigrant, you want to study, you want to be good student, you don't want to give them any kind of opportunity to blame something on you. So I did everything well and forgot this one time. And I still remember it like it was yesterday. So I think as we're young, for many Muslims we tried to kind of live in denial, and we got used to it. Of course, I want to wear it every day, it makes me sad. But you also know deep down that something's wrong. And then you want to also get out of this situation, because there are always going to be instances like that. Instances like this one, where basically, reality, you can't escape it. It's like right there in front of you, no matter how you do. No matter how good students you are, no matter the good grades you are no matter the zero problems you get into even if like you're the top student, there's always going to be an instance where you're reminded that we don't want you here, that kind of you know, and I know that for me, one of the reasons that I went to university is because I knew I could study with my hijab. Otherwise, if I had taken other other fields, that were the studies took place in high schools, I would have to remove my hijab, and that's not something I wanted. It's like at some point, you're tired of having to remove it, remove it, remove it. So it's, I know that for me, it's something and for many other Muslims, it's something that really impacts the choices we make in our life, because we want to stay true to ourselves to our identity to our religion as best as we can. It was very difficult back then. But now a lot more Muslim hijabi women are working freelance, are being self employed, they're their own bosses. So they have this freedom that they wouldn't have if they had a regular job. I'm not sure what your question was?
Samia Aziz:I think I just wanted you to elaborate on when we talk about a hijab ban, and the extent of what that means. I think you said it really perfectly that fundamentally, it affects every decision that you make, and I'm just trying to get my head around, like if you are a child, and you are constantly receiving the message that you cannot be your true authentic self, in a school in the government building in a government owned institution, you cannot be your authentic self, to receive that message day in day out what it was due to then how you grow up and the ideas that you develop both about yourself, but about the world more generally. And it's really scary. And I think something we should be so aware of, is just exactly what message are we allowing young people to absorb about themselves and the lenses of that. And I think as an extension, I guess, because obviously at the moment we were witnessing over two months of the recent escalation of war on Gaza. And there is protests happening around the world. What does political activism for Muslims look like in France at the moment?
Assia Belgacem:So at the moment, considering the fact that we're centering the conversation on Palestine. It's protest BDS also speaking up around your, in your environment, like close environment, but it's also very tricky, again, in workplaces because we all know that freedom of speech is very limited for us. And we all know that speaking up for Palestine as a Muslim is going to come off as You're siding with them because you're either Arab or Muslim. Not because this is a colonisation and it's wrong. And if you if you want to call it something else, and colonisation fine, but then it's not going to change the fact that babies and children and women and pregnant women and fathers and the elderly are being killed every second. So it's very, very, very difficult. And we do attend protests in my city. Protests are not that big. Because, again, I live in a city that isn't very much into activism. So most of the most of the people who come to the protests are Muslim people. So, I mean, not sure how effective this is. It pains me to say, honestly, that Muslims are going out to support Palestine, but I'm not sure how effective it is. Because when people what people are seeing is that a bunch of Muslims protesting for for Palestine, and all they know about Palestine is the H A M A S, which I can't say, because I don't know why I just been conditioned not to say this. And so I'm not sure, are we really bringing a change by these protests or not? But also, I try to see it in a positive light, because, again, my city is not very much of an activist city. Yet, these protests have been happening every Saturday, and people are showing up regardless of the number. And also I live in Bordeaux. And Bordeaux is very different from Paris. I think, when we talk about France, a lot of people think Paris, which has this image of chique, elegance, Paris city of the Eiffel tower. By the way, just to say that the Eiffel towear was buit with iron that was stolen from Algeria. So technically, the Eiffel tower is Algerian! That's the image that we get of France, but there are a lot of different cities. And Bordeaux is one that is very different from Paris, in the sense that it's very elegant. It's a beautiful city. But if you're here to have conversations about Palestine, you want to grow a book club, that's very decolonial, etc, anti-racist, it is going to be very difficult to do this. So that's why I'm saying it's amazing that these protests have been happening every Saturday, regardless of the number of showing up the number of people showing up. What was your question? Again? I feel like I'm not answering the question.
Samia Aziz:You answered the question, great, which was what does political activism for Muslims look like right now in
Assia Belgacem:Yeah. I don't think we just need to boycott. France, especially around Palestine? And I think looking at any sort of protest happening anywhere at the moment is Someone sent me a video a few weeks ago, it's not about heartening, and especially as you said, in the places where boycotting, it's really about cancelling the whole thing, like you wouldn't expect political activism to be something that people are doing. And I mean, personally, I have been really heartened, just by seeing the difference and the sort of the way in which people have been able to sustain pressure at the forever, like, just not today, like once there's a ceasefire, moment as well. I guess my only thing is that I hope that that we realise collectively that , hopefully inshallah there will be a ceasefire, but we have to keep up the pressure. Very first step of what needs to happen. what's going to happen before going back to their old habits, and they're gonna forget about Palestine. But no, I mean, Palestinians are still dying every day, every year 24/7. There's no break for us. A ceasefire is going to give them just the chance to catch their breath. But then things are going to go back to the old days, and the old days, were not good days for them. So we have to keep it up until Palestine is free. And it's very difficult. I think it's very difficult to for people to stay focused. I don't know why. And it's frustrating, because it's not just a trial. It's not just during the bombings. And as an Algerian I feel this because 132 years, I just don't want this to happen to Palestine, and it's already been 75 years. So until when we are we live in a time and age or we have social media, we have so many tools that we didn't have anything we I mean as on journeys, but also like all countries that were colonised. Today, we have so many tools to use, to stay focused until the very end and to actively participate in the Liberation of Palestine until pa resign is actually free. What people just tend to forget, like it's a trend.
Samia Aziz:I think we live in an age of trends. And I mean, I want to use this word sensitively, but like drama, like it feels like things have to capture our attention. And what is what captures the mass attention at the moment is the bloodshed and exactly when the bloodshed is, is, it feels like people feel like, okay, it's okay. Now it's okay. It's perfectly and the issue isn't just what the current bombings and starvation of the people, it is the fact that we are dealing with 75 years of illegal occupation, and forcing people out of their homes and claiming land that isn't theirs, and the Gaza Strip was already so small.
Assia Belgacem:I'm just going to add, claiming and then that isn't theirs, based on religion, something that if we Muslim did this, it would be the end of the world. Imagine Muslims saying we're going to take this land because Allah says in the Quran, this is your land, do you think the US would support us?
Samia Aziz:I want to move on, to speak a little bit more now about book recommendations. And an avid reader and a book critic. What are you reading at the moment? What are some of the things that you you're currently reading things that you're interested in learning about right now?
Assia Belgacem:So right now, all I'm reading about his Palestine. But my reading is a bit messy. I haven't honestly, I haven't been able to focus because I'm always on my phone trying to get the news. What's happening? What can I do? How can I convince this person? Where can I share this? How can you get more engagement because the shadow banning, so I feel like sharing on Instagram is very important. But also, if I know that if I share too much my engagement decreases. So what's the point of sharing if only two people see it, but also, it's important to share even if only two people see it? So I've been thinking about everything trying my best to read, but it hasn't been really fruitful. So I started 10 Myths About Palestine, by Ilan Pappe. I also started, I saw Ramallah by Mourid Bargouti. And right now I'm starting, I just started, I think the title in English is Passage to the Plaza by Sahar Khalifeh, who, who is another Palestinian author. And because I'm reading Passage to the to the Plaza in French, I just want to say in French, because I know I said, I really don't read a lot in French. But again, for this book, I have a specific goal, which is to read it in my very recently created book club, the Watermelon Book Club, because I want French people to read about Palestine. And so books, Palestinian books, in the French publishing industry, are very hard to find. And either they haven't been republished. So you'll find ancient editions that cost it's so expensive, nobody can afford it. Recently, we also have very well we have the translation of The Ethnic Cleaning of Palestine, by Ilan Pappe, who was removed from all bookstores by the publishing house, because we don't want to add fuel to the fire. So it is the situation in France when I say freedom of expression is - I know that freedom of expression is a lie everywhere, but I feel you know, France takes that little extra strap, because why not to if we don't do it, who's gonna do it? Nobody. So friends go do it, you know. So yeah, so I'm reading Sahar Khalifa in French to force people to read it, to get into it. But also to work on it together to share our opinion together to kind of also create this safe space where you can say what you want and express yourself your doubts, your insecurities, your lack of knowledge about Palestine together. So these are my my current reads.
Samia Aziz:And what about any book recommendations you may have on only like French Algerian stories or French and Algerian history? Also, maybe Living in France as a Muslim, like, Are there any books in that field that you recommend?
Assia Belgacem:I was actually waiting for that question. Because you know what I'm gonna say. So for French Algerian literature, the first author I recommend, and it's for me, my favourite author, I suppose again. So, Faïza Guène is Algerian and French. She is an author, she wrote her first book, I think, when she was 16-17. And it's called Gift Tomorrow. Not sure if you've heard of it. It was a huge it was it was a best seller. And if French publishers didn't expect this at all, and what I like about her, so her two books are Men Don't Cry, which was published, translated and published by Cassava republic press, and Discretion, by Saqi Books. These two books are my absolute favourite, because the way she describes the experience of French Algerians is so straight to the point that. Don't try to think what oh, what does she mean by this know, if she means something, she's gonna write it. And there's no space for doubt, or unclarity or anything. And that's something very bad that I don't find, even if Algerian authors who write in French. And she really doesn't shy away from the taboo topics, that very few tackle, like the hijab. I think she's - I don't want to say she's the only author. But to me so far, she's the only one I've read - who actually mentioned the law about the hijab, and that it doesn't make sense. You want to free women, but then you force them to remove the hijab, you want them to be free the way you want. So how, how does freedom come into ensuring your rights it like, the way I'm saying it? You know, there's no metaphor that you need to understand by yourself? Because at this point, I feel I personally feel that it's too much. It's asking too much for French readers. Because are they willing to take that extra strength step to actually understand the meaning behind this? I don't think so. So we might as well just give it to them straight. And that's what she does. That's why I absolutely love her books. I think I started reading again, in French through her books. I really find the way she expressed things. I wouldn't say liberating, but finally someone saying it is just me who thinks that we're not talking about these topics? Can you just say it, just do it? And she's the one who does it. So Faïza Guène, for sure. Please go read Faïza Guène then. So how French Algerian authors, honestly out of my mind, just Faïza Guène, cause because I really don't read a lot of French. I do read a lot Algerian literature. It's not French Algerian. Again, I think I don't read French Algerian because I, I connect much better with parents than with children of immigrants. Because I'm not second generation. But I'm not first generation, so kind of in between. So I sometimes get the two. But I feel more close to parents, and don't find their views in the books that I read, written by children of immigrants, French children of immigrants. So I don't I'm not necessarily drawn towards books written by children of immigrants, unless it's very, very, very good. And it comes highly recommended by this person and that and this and that people who are religious, then I'm more into Algerian literature, which is also very hard to find translated in English. I just want to just want to say something, if you ever want to read Algerian literature, I would not necessarily recommend Yasmina Habra, I'm not sure if you've heard of him. So he is very famous in France and in Algeria. And to me, if a North African writer is extremely famous in France, an immediate red flag. And so he's very famous. So his books come up a lot, and has written about Afghanistan, like, Why have you been there? Have you experienced what it's like living under the Taliban? Are you a woman yourself to write from a woman's point of view? So it just very off and the problem is that his books have been made into to graphic novels, into movies into resources describing the history of colonisation between French and Algeria as a forbidden law or as a divorce. I don't think so - if it really was a marriage, that would be a forced marriage, and the woman was gravely abused for 132 years. But either way, why would you? Why would you compare it to a divorce? It's not a divorce was hosted in Algeria. He lives in France. But he is French Algerian for sure. I'm not sure if he has like French nationality or something? I don't know. And it's very sad, because he had great books at the beginning when he started writing. And then I feel the more he writes, the less the less great it is. It's very cliche. He also wrote about barbaric about Iraq. I haven't read this book, not going to read it. So I just can't give any opinion on it. But he did write about Palestine. And that's when I find it very, very problematic. And that's also why I personally on my platform really wants to amplify Palestinian voices, because nobody knows what it's like to be Palestinian besides Palestinian. Like, it is so ambitious to want to write for Palestinians, if you have the guts to do it, but then 100% It's going to be it's going to it might mislead people. And so, I don't know Jurian he wrote a book about Palestine, where an Arab Israeli doctor is narrowly and his wife commits a it's a how do you call this? You know, when you kill yourself using a bomb, and then you want the whole place? Okay? Yes, yes. But the title of the book is the attack. But which attack what, by whom, and why. And the first thing that you remember is that the attack, the suicide attack is made by a Palestinian woman against Israeli civilians, I don't understand. Then, if you read the book, about the doctor or Israeli tries to understand why his wife did this. He realised that he was really out of touch with his wife because she was very much into the resistance. And he was just living his regular life, not really questioning his identity, etc. And as he goes on to understand what happens, he realises that even if he is Israeli, he is Arab. And so the Israeli army isn't gonna give him a pass because he's Israeli, and racism, and he's going to be oppressed, etc. But it's so misleading, because you can actually decide to say, while she she is Palestinian, she killed people. She killed a lot of people, she is a terrorist.
Samia Aziz:And the thing is, that is what will be taken from the book, even if there are some really nuanced descriptions of other things, and there's a nuanced exploration of Arab Israeli identity or whatever, even all of that, but one thing that people will take away is that the Palestinian woman Woman killed people.
Assia Belgacem:That's how the story opens. Of course, that's the one thing that you're going to remember and as much as I encourage people to think for themselves, and you know, just be critical there's so many ways you can get this story wrong. I'm pro Palestinian obviously, obviously, I'm gonna fight with with with Palestinians who have been oppressed for I don't know how many years, actually 75. But if I'm not, if I'm not then who am I going to side with? It's presented in in such a biassed way. It's very sad which is why I really love Faïza Guène because when she writes, she knows who she's writing for.
Samia Aziz:Yes, she's very unapologetic. I have to definitely second your recommendations. I love her work. I love her. I mean, obviously, I read the English translations, and I would really like to read the original text, but I think she explores such interesting concepts with such nuance, but she's also as you said, just very clear, she doesn't get away from these big questions.
Assia Belgacem:And it's mostly because she knows who she's writing for. If you don't agree with her then by all means don't She's not writing for you. But the the problem that you find with the attack by Yasmina Habra, is I find myself asking, Who is he writing this this book for? The problem is that he's ready for everyone. And good for me, I'm probably sooner hamdulillah but if you're writing it for everyone, then a big chunk of your readers are not properly seeing. But then the point I'm guessing is he doesn't want to lose his readers. So there's there are also a lot of ethics and morals to take into account. I'm not saying that he doesn't have morals or doesn't have ethics, God knows, I don't know what's happening in his head, what he's doing. These are my own assumptions. That might be wrong. But that's just how I feel it.
Samia Aziz:Exactly, exactly. And I think that insight is really important. And, you know, there are a lot of books out there in the world. But that doesn't mean that all of them to be read by everybody, or are contributing to something that is positive. You know, it's really important, I think, as well, like, when it comes to reading around Palestine, obviously, to read Palestinian voices, but to be able to, not just in terms of reading, but when you come across any information, to be able to determine for yourself, what is true and what is not. What is misleading. What is propaganda? What is an authentic source, and what is not, I think, to be able to empower yourself and educate yourself enough to be able to do that is a really important place to start. But Assia, I have really loved speaking to you on the show today.
Assia Belgacem:Thank you so much for asking me all these questions. You had all the right questions. And honestly, also, thank you for giving me a space where I can express myself freely, which is isn't something I usually get. And so it's a true honour for me to have been able to express myself without any without any second thoughts. Or maybe I should say this, maybe I shouldn't say this.
Samia Aziz:It has been so wonderful. And just so insightful. I think anybody listening will take away so much. And I hope we'll just be left with a lot to think about as well and reflect on I hope
Assia Belgacem:I can't wait for everyone's feedback. And I also listened to my favourite episode was the one with Ola and Ilham. And I also learned so much from it. So thank you so much for the work you're doing for giving space for all these amazing people that unfortunately, we don't live in the same country to see each other. But you thank you for the virtual space
Samia Aziz:Thank you. Thank you, Assia. Thank you so much to ask her for her time today. This was such an insightful and super interesting conversation. I loved every second of it. And I hope you who are listening did too. If you enjoyed the show, please follow the diverse bookshelf on your podcast platform of choice and connect with me on social media. I'd really appreciate it if you could rate and leave a review as it helps more people find the show