What is Socialism? Pt.1 Meagan Day's Democratic Socialism, Explained by a Democratic Socialist

Meagan Day, a DSA member and staff writer for Jacobin, wrote an essay in Vox to explain the goals of democratic socialism and respond to common misconceptions about democratic socialists. Since 2016, the mass support for self-declared democratic socialist Bernie Sanders for president and the election of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to Congress brought democratic socialism into the limelight of mainstream political commentary. However, there are many misconceptions about the goals of rapidly growing organizations like DSA.

Day distinguishes between socialists and those who just want to reform capitalism. She points out limits to reform within capitalism, noting that the capitalist class will try to take back any advances won through the struggle of workers. The article gives examples of contemporary institutions that embody socialist principles such as Britain’s National Health Service. She considers how the struggle for reforms can contribute to the ultimate goal of replacing capitalism with socialism. She calls for ending “society’s subservience to the market.”


Speakers:

Daphna Thier: is the Labor Education Coordinator at Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee, and was the former chair of the National Political Education Committee.

José La Luz is a lifelong labor organizer and campaigner with roots in the New Left in the late 60’s and early 70’s. He was a founding member of DSA after joining DSOC prior to the merger with NAM in the mid 80’s. He is the most senior member of the NPC (in age) adding a multigenerational presence to the national leadership.

Sofia Cutler is a member of North New Jersey DSA, and has been a member of the DSA National Political Committee since 2021 as part of the Bread and Roses Slate. She is a rank-and-file member of Unite Here Local 33.

Justin Charles is a member of North Brooklyn DSA, and has been a member of the DSA National Political Committee since July 2020.

Links:

Meagan Day’s “Democratic Socialism, Explained by a Democratic Socialist”

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/8/1/17637028/bernie-sanders-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-cynthia-nixon-democratic-socialism-jacobin-dsa

DSA NPEC Curriculum

https://dsa-education.pubpub.org/modules

DSA’s Leadership and Structure

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/structure/

Credits:
Producer: Elton LK
Logo by Michaela Brangan
Sound Engineer & Opening Music by Casey Sticker
Additional Assistance, including content by Palmer Conrad

Become a member of Democratic Socialists of America.

Transcript

Elton LK: 0:00

This is Class, an official podcast of the Democratic Socialists of America National Political Education Committee. My name is Elton LK. The lasting success of DSA depends on widespread political education throughout the organization. Our ability to build a mature, effective socialist movement hinges on broadly shared knowledge of the history and theory of the historical struggle we've inherited. These ideas and conversations belong to the working class. For a multi-tendency organization like DSA, political education provides the space for comradely and productive debate between different political perspectives, allowing us to collectively generate deeper and more effective analysis than any of us could alone. It is our hope that this national curriculum and future versions will support political educators in DSA as they bring about a new flowering of socialism in the intellectual and cultural life of our class. This passage I just read is on the Democratic Socialists of America National Political Education Committee website education.dsa usa.org, where you'll find our curriculum packets. The link is in the show notes. Each packet has readings and recommendations for how local DSA chapters may choose to facilitate a discussion on the readings for the sake of giving the audience an opportunity to engage with the texts and their comrades. The next few episodes of the podcast are meant to supplement the curriculum packets, specifically the What is Socialism curriculum. This first reading was written by DSA member Megan Day after Casio Cortez's primary win in 2018, when many Americans started asking about Democratic socialism for the first time. In a moment, I'll hand this over to Daphna Thier, our moderator, whom you'll recognize if you've been listening to Class for very long. Daphna is the Labor Education Coordinator at Emergency Workplace Organizing Committee, and was the former chair of the National Political Education Committee. Please note that this interview was recorded back in the summer of 2022. There was a variety of reasons why we weren't able to release it then, so the participants won't be commenting about events that have occurred in the meantime. I'm excited about being able to share these episodes with our NPC members, which you'll recognize from the recent bonus episode of class called The Future of DSA: A National Political Committee Debate.

Daphna Thier: 2:50

Welcome to this episode of the DSA National Political Education Podcast. My name is Daphna Thier. I'm based in Brooklyn, and I'm hosting this three-part series on what is Democratic socialism. This series is accompanying our curriculum on our website, education.usa. org, under the resources tab. You can also find there the previous series called What is Capitalism? We're joined today by three of our National Political committee members, Justin Charles, Sofia Cutler, and Jose La Luz. The DSA National Political Committee is the leadership of our national organization, and DSA is a broad tent socialist organization, meaning there's lots of different takes. And today we're gonna discuss some of those different socialist positions represented in the broad tent, how they view socialism and the socialist movement. In this episode, we focus on what the relationship is between reforms and policies we organize around today and the long-term goals of socialism. If you're following along with the reading in the curriculum, we're talking about the article, democratic Socialism, explained by a Democratic socialist written by Megan Day, and published on Vox. Welcome, Justin, Sofia, Jose. So Day writes in her article that in the long run, democratic socialists want to end capitalism, and we wanna do that by pursuing a reform agenda today, in the effort to revive a politics focused on class hierarchy and inequality in the United States. The eventual goal is to transform the world to promote everyone's needs rather than produce massive profits for a small handful of citizens. She goes on:"a robust welfare state in an economy that's still organized around capitalists in office can mitigate the worst inequalities for a while, but it is at best a temporary truce between bosses and workers, and one that the former will look to scrap as soon as they can." She uses Medicare for All as an example of a social policy that would offer huge relief to millions of Americans, but she says it isn't socialism, right? It doesn't totally change the system. So the question is, what do you all think is the relationship between reforms like Medicare for All and socialism? Why should we organize for Medicare for All, or should we organize for Medicare for All? And what are the limits of a reform like that? Justin, will you start us off?

Justin Charles: 5:22

I will say that the relationship between Medicare for All and socialism is that, uh, the demand for Medicare for All is one that the state is not too excited about actually giving us. It's one that we're going to have to organize and fight for. And while, you know, ultimately we want not just insurance, but you know, pharmaceuticals and actual, uh, medical care, uh, to be covered by the state, um, fighting for Medicare for all I think is really important, and we should absolutely fight for and organize for it. Um, because fights, like fights for Medicare for all or any other social benefit, I think show us the power that we have. Uh, when we make, uh, elected officials who, you know, generally don't want, uh, to do things like pass Medicare for all, we make them do it. Um, we realize our power, and if we realize we're able to do that, what else could we do?

Daphna Thier: 6:24

Sofia, what are your thoughts?

Sofia Cutler: 6:27

I think organizing for things like Medicare for All and other reforms like it are important for pushing back against the market so that the welfare of ordinary citizens isn't dependent on their success in the market. And I think that is why it's such a threat to vast sections of the state and the capitalist class, as Justin said, because it strengthens the working class and insulates it from the fluctuations of the market, making it less vulnerable. So I think that's a big reason why we should push for it. And then there are deeper reasons too. Workers in United States and the capitalist world are incredibly fragmented and alienated and universal programs like Medicare for All, like free higher education, infuse American politics with a kind of universality that's really important for class formation. So I, I think that's a, a broader reason why we should fight for it. There's a, a good article about this by, uh, comrade Robbie Nelson, in New York City DSA, in Jacobin. He calls these reforms engines of solidarity,

Daphna Thier: 8:04

Jose,

Jose La Luz: 8:06

The fight, uh, to achieve universal, uh, healthcare, uh, which is, uh, referred to as, uh, Medicare for all. Uh, the way was conceived by comrade uh, Bernie Sanders, uh, is one of the most critical fights for the working class in this country and anywhere, uh, because, uh, there is nothing more important, more fundamental, uh, than, uh, eh life, eh, and we are essentially talking, uh, about, uh, life, eh, the fact that, uh, millions of workers, uh, in the wealthiest country on the face of the earth do not have access to, uh, healthcare. It's not only a travesty, uh, it's really, you know, one of the most glaring inequalities, uh, in, uh, any society, and particularly in the wealthiest nation on the face of the earth. So, uh, it's in fact, uh, one of the most important, uh, demands, you know, of the working class. Uh, it's a, it's a classic social democratic reform that has been achieved in many countries, not only across the Atlantic, but actually around other continents, uh, right here in our own hemisphere, uh, in countries, uh, such as Uruguay, uh, Argentina, Costa Rica, uh, a few others. Uh, and, uh, the fact that, uh, we do not, uh, have universal healthcare in the United States, uh, uh, is, is, is really, is really, uh, you know, uh, something that points, uh, to one of the most, uh, fundamental contradictions, uh, in terms of, uh, you know, capitalism, uh, and workers. Uh, and the reason it hasn't happened here, frankly speaking, is because, uh, we have a very powerful, uh, medical pharmaceutical, uh, hospital, uh, industrial complex, uh, that invest, eh, significant amounts of money, uh, in, uh, funding the campaigns of elected officials, eh, that, uh, making sure that they protect the interests of this, uh, industry first and foremost, and not, you know, the healthcare of working people in this country. You know? And now this became so evident, uh, you know, as a result of the, uh, uh, you know, racial inequities that we all witnessed during the pandemic were, uh, working class communities of color, you know, suffer the most, the most because of not having, eh, adequate, eh, eh, you know, access, not even, uh, you know, uh, access at all, uh, in the case of millions, uh, of workers. So, this is one of the most important, uh, struggles for the multiracial, uh, working class in America. And one that d s a most play a leading, a leading role, uh, in fighting for.

Daphna Thier: 11:13

I appreciate all your comments. It's very clear from what you're saying, both that this should be a very basic right. And also Medicare for All exists in countries that don't have socialism. It could exist in a capitalist state. Also, you, you talked about the role of capitalists in preventing it, and that's something we talked about in a previous series about how undemocratic capitalism really is. So, I guess the question is, if this could exist under capitalism, but we're struggling because capitalism is so undemocratic, what are some of the limits of a reform like this? Obviously, this would advance the working class movement, but how is this distinct from our goal of a completely different society, Justin?

Justin Charles: 11:56

So, I, I mean, I think, obviously, you know, winning any number of reforms is not gonna equal socialism, but I think the fight for any of these reforms is, is vital on our path towards socialism, because I mean, if capitalism is the, you know, I guess the is is totally devoid of anything like real democracy and socialism, you know, I would say is, you know, democracy, I think in his purest form, um, people having ultimate agency and control over their lives, um, in all spheres, then each one of these fights for a reform, each one of these fights for democracy is a dress rehearsal for us actually living that in our lives. It's, you know, it's, it's us preparing for that future where we have ultimate agency, ultimate control, determine the course of our lives.

Sofia Cutler: 12:51

Picking up on that, I think something like Medicare for All, it's an important step in the right direction. We do want things like universal healthcare. We wanna decommodify survival, we want housing, education, et cetera, to be provided by the government. But we ultimately, as socialists, we want control over production. And I think that is an important distinction between non-reformist reforms like Medicare for all and, and ultimately socialism between social democracy and, and socialism. A country like Sweden, for example, emancipated its working class from the market through all kinds of social rights and welfare programs, but it ultimately never got to the point of controlling production. And that is the ultimate goal. That said, you know, if we had a social democratic welfare state, I would die happy. You know, even if we had Medicare for all, I would die happy. That would be incredible. But we all know that that's not enough. And I say that not because it's, it's bad or it's impure to fight for these things. Um, the problem is that it's hard to maintain these programs, um, without having control of production, without changing the way the economy works, without eliminating the ability of the rich to get rich by exploiting workers. So, um, if we don't address that, all the reforms that we win are always gonna be under attack. So for me, while I think social democracy would be amazing, if it could last, I am committed to socialism, because that's ultimately how I think we can, uh, sustain these reforms in the long term,

Jose La Luz: 15:04

Eh, so, yes, I do wanna insist, eh, on why this is such a fundamental, uh, fight, uh, to achieve universal healthcare in this country. There is no reason, uh, that in the wealthiest country, on the face of the earth, we do not have universal healthcare. This is a fundamental demand, uh, for the multiracial working class. And, and it also points to another fundamental contradiction here, trade unions, eh, negotiate, uh, eh healthcare, uh, as part of their collective agreements. And as long as unions continue to negotiate, uh, healthcare benefits, eh, in their collective agreements, they will not fight for, you know, these to become a demand to benefit the entire class. And as socialist, we, we fight to build power for the entire class, not only for segments of the class. This is why some people would argue that, uh, some segments of the class are privileged because they enjoy, you know, fundamental social rights, uh, such as, uh, you know, uh, better, uh, healthcare, uh, access. And so, yes, we have to, uh, you know, fight for universal healthcare. We have to fight, eh, to achieve, uh, radical transformation, eh, of our economy and our political system. That's why we are socialists. Uh, and this has to do with the question of power and achieving state power, which is, uh, I believe one of the other questions that we are going to be addressing tonight. But there is no more important fight than the fight to achieve universal healthcare for all segments of the working class in America.

Daphna Thier: 16:54

We'll be talking more about state power in the next episode, but I did wanna ask, because we've mentioned a couple of times the term social democracy, distinguished from democratic socialism, and I'm wondering if someone could explain the difference between those two things.

Jose La Luz: 17:09

You know, we have a critique of capitalism. I, as a scientific socialist, uh, as a Marxist, eh, have a very specific, you know, uh, critique of capitalism that has to do with, uh, who owns, you know, the means and the factors of production, something that comrade, uh, Sofia Guimarães was pointing, uh, out. Uh, and so, uh, the difference, uh, you know, between, uh, social democracy, uh, as a comrade, uh, Guimarães pointed out, uh, we have, uh, you know, social democratic, uh, countries like, uh, most of the Scandinavian, uh, countries, and we have, uh, countries across, uh, Europe, uh, which have achieved, you know, fundamental, uh, social democratic reforms, meaning that, uh, the market, uh, you know, has been, uh, eh, control has been limited by this, uh, social rights, uh, that have been the result of the struggle, of the historic struggle of the working classes in all of these countries. Uh, none of this has been imposed from above. It has come as a result of consistent historic, you know, fights, uh, uh, uh, led by the working class in all of those countries, including right here in our, in our hemisphere. And, uh, so, uh, eh, but eh, what is the meaning of, uh, being a, you know, democratic socialist? Well, for me, it means that we fight for both socialism and democracy, because some of us believe that, uh, one cannot achieve, you know, socialism and state power without having, and, uh, the ability to exercise fundamental, uh, democratic rights, uh, such as the right, uh, to, uh, you know, freedom of speech, uh, freedom of assembly, and other fundamental, uh, rights. Uh, and, uh, you know, once again, those that have a particular critique, uh, of, uh, the capital assist system, uh, in my case, uh, you know, uh, as a, as a democratic, uh, eh, socialist, as a, as a scientific socialist, as a Marxist, eh, you know, I believe that we have to achieve, you know, control of the means of production. That means that we have to, you know, seize, uh, state power. Uh, and that introduces another question, which is, do we achieve this by parliamentary means by electing people to parliament, uh, meaning congress, municipal assemblies, state assemblies, uh, or, uh, you know, is there something else that needs to happen? And I'm gonna stop right here because I suspect this is gonna be the subject of another, uh, segment in our discussion.

Daphna Thier: 19:59

Hmm. I wanna ask you a follow-up question. What is the end goal? What does democratic socialism look like in your mind?

Jose La Luz: 20:07

You know, socialism as comrade, uh, Guimarães, you know, pointed out, uh, essentially means, uh, because of our critique of capitalism, uh, that we have to, uh, you know, seize control of the, uh, means of production, eh, and, uh, thereby eliminating, you know, the profit, uh, eh motive, eh, which is the source of exploitation of, uh, of the working class that means achieving, you know, state power. Uh, and, uh, you know, that raises the question, how does that happen? Does that happen when you, uh, when we're able to achieve a majority of socialists elected, uh, to, uh, you know, parliament, is that even conceivable that we can elect, you know, a majority of socialists? Uh, you know, to parliament? My answer will be a resounding no, uh, for multiple reasons. Uh, the capital capitalist class will make sure that, uh, we will not be able to elect, you know, uh, a majority of, uh, socialists, you know, in parliament. So you, you have to address the question of how do we seize, you know, uh, state power, uh, and, uh, you know, we have to look at, uh, you know, history, uh, and how that has happened in many other countries. But, uh, I believe we can, you know, achieve and get closer to socialism if we elect, you know, more socialists, uh, uh, in Congress and other, uh, you know, uh, bodies, uh, across, uh, the country. But at some point, the question of how do we achieve, uh, state power is gonna have to be addressed.

Sofia Cutler: 21:43

Yeah. To me, it's a world in which the working class has power in society to determine our lives, and it's ultimately about democracy. In some ways, I think that's more of my north star than even socialism. Uh, I wanna see democracy in our workplaces, in our politics, in our communities, and that's how I imagine socialism looking like. And that's how I imagine the path to socialism looking like as a democratic road.

Justin Charles: 22:26

I, I don't, I don't have much to add. I think Jose and Sofia put it quite well. I mean, to me, socialism is going to look like, you know, the, the truest form of democracy we've seen yet. And it will mean we all have control over our lives. We have control over our workplaces and the means of production. We have control over our neighborhoods, our communities, um, we have control over, uh, how, how, how our society is governed. We, the working class have agency, which we haven't really, which we have in, in, you know, little glimpses of today. But n n nothing like what socialism will look like.

Elton LK: 23:15

This is Class, an official podcast of the Democratic Socialists of America National Political Education Committee. My name is Elton LK. If you're interested in anything we've been talking about, if you think the system is rigged and democracy is the solution, join DSA, become a member. I've put a link in the show notes to DSA's website. If you're already a member of DSA, please share this podcast with your local chapter. Class is intended to be a resource for chapters and members to articulate, apply and share socialist theory with DSA and the wider working class. Also, remember to rate and review us on iTunes or your favorite podcatcher. And last, I'd like to thank Casey Stikker for sound engineering theme, music and editing. Thanks to Palmer Conrad for administrative assistance and helping with the content. Alright, we'll be back in two weeks.