Rise of Catholicism with Dr. Kristy Nabhan-Warren

Dr. Kristy Nabhan-Warren is a Professor at the University of Iowa and the Elizabeth Kahl Figge Chair in Catholic Studies. She was recently quoted in a www.msn.com article about the rise in numbers of Catholics around the world. Tony Michaels fills in for Joanne Fox and delves deeper into the number and potential reasons for this uptick in popularity.

This episode is scheduled to air April 27th at 9am on Siouxland Catholic Radio 88.1 FM. 

The program is sponsored by Mary's Choice

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Faith in Action here on Sioux Land Catholic Radio, 88.1 FM, where we delve deeper into some very important topics dealing with the Catholic faith, and we have a very special guest for you on the way this morning. First, I want to thank our sponsor, Mary's Choice. They are a Sioux City Pregnancy Resource Center right here in Sioux City. You can find out more about Mary's Choice by going to our website, Sioux LandCatholic Radio.com. They've been a longtime sponsor of the show. Normally Joanne Fox uh will uh host the show, Faith in Action, but uh she'll be coming back to town in a couple of weeks with some new episodes of Faith in Action. So my name is Tony Michaels. I am your fill-in host today for Faith in Action on Sioux Lane Catholic Radio. All right, uh, it's not often that we get articles passed around the office with such glowing reviews as the one we had that popped up. I know we saw it on MSN.com and it uh quoted our guest this morning on Faith in Action. I'd like to welcome onto the show Christy Nobhan Warren, who joins us this morning. Christy, good morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Good morning, Tony. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

I uh practiced your name a few times this morning in the shower, but I feel as though I still got it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

It is totally fine. Open to multiple pronunciations.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

And uh that I believe is Lebanese in in nature.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yes, yes. My paternal, yeah, my dad's uh parents, uh grandparents, Lebanese and Swedish, and my mom's side's Polish. So I'm a good old-fashioned Midwestern Heinz 57, you know? Yeah, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

And so uh currently uh you teach at the University of Iowa. What is your role there and how long have you been at uh the University of Iowa?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yeah, so uh I do want to back up and say I was at Augustina College for 10 years. Yeah, so it was at a Lutheran institution uh from let's see oh two to uh 2012, and then I came to the University of Iowa for an endowed chair in Catholic Studies, the VO and Elizabeth Call Figgy, uh chair in Catholic Studies. So I've held this since uh the fall of 2012, and I'm also um associate vice president of research at the University of Iowa. But yeah, so it's a great place to be. Um, really love being here.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

And so how many uh Midwestern universities have Catholic studies? A lot of schools, or is that uh kind of a small number?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, I mean that's a great question. Um actually I think it's pretty rare, to be honest with you. Most Catholic studies and doubt share positions are at private institutions. They tend to be at Catholic institutions. Um what appealed to me about this position is that it's at a big state school, and I am big state school, I'm public education all the way. I public high schools and BA PhD from Indiana University. When I was at Indiana University, we there was actually a Catholic studies chair position, but I don't think there is anymore. And so what I what I really like about this position is that I can come at it from an academic angle and I can work with a lot of Catholic students, but also a lot of non-Catholic students. And I think my MO as a teacher, as a professor is always, you know, empathy and understanding. And so for those Catholic students who want a better understanding of the history and the culture of the faith, they can get it. But then for non-Catholic students, they can also come in and get a really good understanding. And I will tell you, you might be surprised by this, but I am not Catholic. Um, my mother was raised Polish Catholic and she converted when she married my dad, who uh is Lutheran. And so I was raised Lutheran, but with a keen um love and you know, a I would say very much a Catholic sensibility. So I come at it from a very ecumenical perspective, and I think that makes me a better teacher and a better scholar, to be honest with you, someone who can really look at things from multiple angles and who can bring a scholarly rigor and also, you know, a deep respect and understanding of the faith.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

So Christy, this is gonna be such a great interview. I just uh love your vibe already this morning. And and uh you can tell uh, you know, you look at things from a different perspective, and uh that led to you writing uh this article, which like I said was passed around our Sioux Line Catholic radio offices, uh, like none other. Within about three minutes, we have got to see if we can get her on uh Faith and Action. So uh the main the main gist of the article, uh uh you probably uh can speak further on this, but uh it seems like there's a growing popularity in the Catholic faith, and and why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I always want to emphasize, and you probably read this in in the article, was that there's I don't think there's ever one explanation for any phenomena, right? And I think scholars like myself, we look at it, there's multiple reasons why we see phenomena happening. And I think when we look at the the recent impressive uptick in conversions and interest in the Roman Catholic Church in the United States, I think it's for a lot of reasons. I do think one of the reasons is because we have the first elected American Pope, you know, Pope Leo, and I think there's a there's a sense of excitement about that to have an American Pope, but I don't think that's the only reason. I think another reason is that, you know, Americans, uh young Americans in particular, I'm a mom of three. My I have two sons, one's almost 23, one's almost 20. I'm dating myself, and then my daughter just turned 17. I think that young people are really searching for meaning right now. I think that, you know, we are just now discovering and learning about the dangers and how damaging social media has been to our brains, to our, you know, ability to connect with each other. People are more depressed, people are on more medications, you know, and I think that there's something really beautiful about being in a church, right? And, you know, I can tell you growing up Lutheran, I, you know, I love growing up Lutheran, I was a good Lutheran girl. But whenever I would visit Catholic churches with my friends who are Catholic, and I would I would always think, oh gosh, these are really pretty and there's something really special here. And so I think, you know, and I don't I don't mean to be derogatory or, you know, when I say this, but I think there's something to the smells and bells, right? You know, like this smell when you're in a Catholic church, you know, the incense, you know, the candles, the statues, you know, when you see Christ stretched out on a cross, there's something really powerful about that. And I think that all of this sensorial, you know, what we're seeing and hearing and smelling in Catholic churches is deeply appealing to youth who have, you know, this generation has been raised on foams. Um, they're craving meaning, they're craving beauty, they're craving being in a real time, you know, with other young people. And so, you know, and I can just tell you on a personal level, my sons in particular are they both starting to go, you know, go to different churches or looking into meaning. And I think we see that with a lot of young adults here at the University of Iowa. You know, they're going to the Newman Center, they're going to the Orthodox Church, they're, you know, they're going to St. Vent's Laus, they're going to, you know, St. Pat's, they're going to St. Mary's. So I think it's, you know, a backlash against AI, our, you know, impersonal culture. You know, the Pope is is a big figure. And they think, you know, young people are thinking about, you know, big existential issues like who am I? What are my values? If I'm a parent one day, you know, how do I want to raise my own kids? And so I think that we're at a real pivotal moment in not only in American society, but in global society.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

That is a very pivotal moment as we're in the year 2026, of course. I think COVID had a big impact with how we see a variety of things when it comes to work-life balance or definitely religion. And so would it be fair to say that this uptick in Catholicism is prominent, but you've also seen uptick in in other religions on campus?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Absolutely. Um, and I will tell you my oldest who I mentioned, son, he uh was a youth leader at one of our local Lutheran churches for a while, and while he was a student here. And he um, yeah, he absolutely noticed more high schoolers coming, more college students. And so, yes, I think we see it m vi really prominently conversions and upticks and attendance at Catholic churches in particular, but also other Christian denominations like mainline dominate denominations. One of the things I want to point out that as a that as a scholar of American religions, more broadly, as a historian, in my classrooms, you know, we've as my students and I have looked at this for all, gosh, for the last, I'd say 20 years, you know, starting in the late 80s, uh, early 90s, we saw real growth in mainline evangelical churches. They were doing a great job attracting youth. Uh, and I'll give them a lot of credit. You know, there were, you know, there are gyms in these churches, there's like soccer leagues, basketball leagues, cafes for young couples, you know, there's daycare, there's even like workout facilities. And so I think for a long time, the evangelical Protestant churches did a much better job, I will say. But I'm saying this from a scholarly perspective, from a comparative perspective, than the Roman Catholic Church did. I think the Catholic Church didn't always have that outreach to youth. But I think we're seeing a kind of fatigue with, you know, evangelical churches, no knock against them, but they tend to be more in more big box, you know, stores, if you will. They tend to look a little bit more like Walmarts. And again, I'm not saying this from a judgmental point. It's just that that's really, if you really look at them, they lack the aesthetics, you know, the beauty and the long tradition, capital T of the Roman Catholic Church. And so I think there's room for both of these kinds of churches. But so I think, again, looping back to what I said a few moments ago, for those young people who are craving beauty, you know, they want to be in a beautiful church and see the candles and the smells. Evangelical mainline churches, uh, Protestant churches tend to not have that, but Catholic churches do. And so I like to think that there's room for all kinds of young people, and whether we're talking Protestant evangelical or we're talking a Roman Catholic church, right? Um, all part of the same Christendom, right? So I think Roman Catholic churches, it it took them longer to kind of maybe do a youth outreach in a way that the evangelical churches have. But um I think that there's there's a new awakening, a new realization. I don't know if you saw this, Tony, but there was a really kind of fun piece in uh the New York Times that came out, oh, maybe a week and a half ago about Gen Z Catholics, like, you know, in New York going to St. Joe's and meeting up for dinner and then going out for drinks afterward. There are lots of you know influencers. I'm I'm blanking on the guy's name, but there are these like Catholic influencers. So they're using social media, right, to get other young people interested, saying, hey, we'll be at such and such pub after mass. So I think these young folks are they're not completely rejecting social media, but they're trying to take control of it, saying, okay, maybe we can harness social media in a way where we can grow our faith and form the kind of community that we want, but not have social media AI take us over as humans, if that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Makes total sense. And it's funny, uh, at Easter Mass, I was walking out talking to uh someone who uh went to high school here at the Catholic high school and then went on to college, and uh it was the eight, eight o'clock mass at uh Holy Cross Blessed Sacrament, and we're walking. I was like, so what are your plans today? He's like, well, actually, uh later on this morning I'm going to the Tyson Event Center because there's a religious service there that's put on by a big church. And so I've never in my life uh talked to a young person that not only went to Easter Mass but a doubleheader on Easter Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Doubleheader, I love that. And was that was that second service a mass or was that um evangelical?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

It was evangelical. It was with a big church here in town called Sunnybrook, and uh they rent out the Tyson Event Center, and there's a lot of music and a completely different vibe, no stained glass, but it's a where you have a lot of uh big events and concerts. And and I've never in my entire life when I was walking out, and obviously he has Catholic roots, but a lot of his friends were going to uh this big event, Tyson Event Center, and they invited him, and he said, Yeah, absolutely. Uh talk about double doubling down on religion. There it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

I love that. A doubleheader. Well, and also that's so interesting because as you know, I mean, you you grew up Catholic, so you know better than I do, but I'll take it from a scholarly perspective, but I think it matches you know what you're saying here too, Tony. You know, there were so many, obviously, this goes back to the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, right? So many, many years, centuries. But I think that so this is this is heartening to me that Catholic youth today and evangelical Protestant youth today, you know, maybe there's just more ecumenicism today. I like to think that, right? And and I again I'm going to my other son's uh his experience. So uh growing up in Iowa City, going to Protestant evangelical services, but also he's become very ecumenical too, and he'll like church hop and go to services at other denominations with friends. And I think that again, there's just this searching, there's this kind of like, yeah, I can belong to one, but I can also go with my friends to theirs. And so we didn't see this right in the 20th century so much where we had, I think, stronger divisions among Protestants and Catholics. But I think that today's generation, they're more experimental and they don't necessarily see a conflict between, you know, going to Roman Catholic, you know, Roman Catholic Church and maybe you know, converting or reverting, and then going with their buddies to um, you know, a big uh a big service. So I think that's that's heartening to me. I think that it can be both and, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

That's a good point. So fun to see that kind of uh passion on an Easter Sunday where you know a lot of people in his demographic, uh I know thinking back, uh it was uh probably more seen as uh something as an obligation and you you're kind of dragging your feet to church or something that was encouraged by your parents. But for him to to go out, and obviously the the mom wasn't gonna go to the the second part of that doubleheader, but uh the fact that uh he had a friend group that that believed and uh obviously the morally grounded individual, and it was just fun to see.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, I think that's great. Again, I think seeing these youth as really, you know, they're taking charge of their own faith lives, and and I think that's it's a positive sign. I think we definitely see that here in Iowa, you know, University of Iowa. From what I hear from colleagues and friends at UNI and Iowa State, I think we we see very similar trends. I know again, my my uh almost 20-year-old son, when he was a senior in high school here at West High, he and some buddies, oh gosh, I'm trying to remember the Christian, oh, he's one of the Christian rock stars. He was up at in Ames and they all went up there and you know, and and went out to dinner and stayed the night up there. And you know, I think we're seeing that, you know, road tripping to see concerts, and uh that that kind of warms my heart for this generation, you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Much better choices than I made at the age of 18, so that's good.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

We're uh joined uh this morning once again uh Kristen Nobhan Warren, who uh wrote a great article about the growing popularity in the Catholic faith, and uh, we saw it uh posted on msn.com and uh picked up all around the internet as well. I got this message from our uh board of director president and host of the show, Joanne Fox, and I said, Hey, is there any questions in particular you want me to ask Christy? And she chimed in. What kind of effect do you think the assassination of Charlie Kirk had on um the influencers and uh people, especially in the younger demographic, and drawing them closer to any type of faith, especially Catholic?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Boy, that's a that's a really, really good question. And what a tragedy, you know. I think you know, this is a really sensitive thing, right? I think that, and I not all your viewers may may like what I'm saying here. I think that what I appreciated about if I can just call him Charlie, sure, was that he did seem to be a person of deep faith, you know, strong marriage. It was a father. You know, he was he was offering a different path from incel culture, looks maxing, and things like that, right? I mean, as we know, there's a whole other movement among young men that I I find really frightening that is, you know, like uber patriarchal, uber like women should be in the home, women should not have a right. There is a movement that, you know, women shouldn't even have a vote, and some women are, you know, supporting that. And and I think that personally, I think that's dangerous. I think that's rolling back rights of women, not only of women, but for families, right? I believe it's good for you know children to see their mothers fulfilled and having a voice, you know. So I think from my perspective, a the assassination was a tragedy. And I feel I feel sorry for the young person who was assassinated because clearly this person was really struggling. You know, I think it's important to have empathy. But I do think what maybe hasn't always been emphasized enough is that Charlie didn't always have very positive messages. I think that there's a difference between engaging in dialogue and um stirring the pot, if you will. And and I did not, and I say this as someone who's done a lot of reading on him, and I love the fact that he would go and engage with young people. But what seemed a little off the hook to me was that there was a lot of yelling at these events, and it did seem that maybe at least at times, he didn't necessarily want dialogue. He wanted to stoke anger. And so I think it's so important to have dialogue. You know, not all young men, for example, want their wives to be at-home moms. I mean, I am a working mom who's a very involved mother, and a lot of my friends are. So I think again, it can be both. And I think, you know, for example, um, his his wife, who's grieving now, has her own business and seems to have her own vocations as a mom and as a working mom. And so I think if I would just say one thing, I hope that what we can take from this is to really look in our hearts and to really look at things and think, why can't it be both and why can't one be a practicing Christian and also not stoke anti-women, anti-anything kinds of sentiments, if that makes sense. I, you know, I again, I don't want to engage in culture wars here, but there were things that Charlie Kirk said that really hurt people. I mean, there's this watch list for professors, and I and I think that it's dangerous when we when we go, when we encourage people to go after people and ruin their lives and careers, you know, we may not agree with what they're saying, but I think that when we take the next step and say, you know, we're gonna go after them, you know, some of these folks, professors, you know, got death threats, you know, and I so I don't think that's healthy, you know. I don't think anyone should be doing that. So what again, what I appreciated about Charlie Kirk is that he got young men in particular seeing faith as a pathway. But what I don't appreciate as a woman who has sons and a daughter and who works, who has worked with thousands of young people, you know, over the years is that people need to have a choice. And I and I hate to see it when young people are getting angry and when they're, you know, my classrooms, for example, have always been places where conservative, liberal people in the middle can can have dialogue. And I think that what came out of the Charlie Kirk phenomenon is that there were a lot of assumptions that that were that, you know, university professors like myself, you know, were woke or that we we don't encourage conversations. In fact, I think Tony, most college professors really do encourage healthy dialogue. Now, certainly there are always those who don't, but I think the vast majority of us really do. And we welcome conservative students, you know, in our classrooms. Like I always tell my own students, and some of my best students have been really conservative Christian students who, you know, I may not personally agree with on everything, but what I tell students, and again, I think most professors tell our students hey, it's not whether or not we agree with you. We want you to become um better writers, better thinkers at whatever you believe, that you can state it even better. You know, our job is not to like change minds, if you will, or like to brainwash, this is what some of the ways, you know, that were thought of, but to really to get you to think more deeply and to get you to thinking more historically about things, right? I know this is a long-winded answer, but I I'm sad when I think about Charlie Kirk because I think that I think so much of it's been twisted, and I I think he meant well, but I think that unfortunately it's been politicized, it's uh in ways that I think are damaging, you know. I don't know if this all makes sense, but I'm I'm I'm still working through it all, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Pretty uh in-depth analysis. That's what I love about the show is we can delve into topics and even uh topics that you know a lot of uh individuals listening may have differing opinions on. I think that's open dialogue and that's uh what we enjoy most. But you could actually probably have a course just on that and uh have plenty of coursework. But uh so what what uh what does the coursework look like at the University of Iowa? What uh type of classes are in the religious studies of what what do you focus on?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah, well, you know, since I've been in my role, uh my administrative role the last four years, I've mostly been working with Graduate students, but I'm actually happy to tell you I'm going to start teaching an undergrad class again, starting in the fall, because I love to teach. And so, um, my classes that I've taught here at the university since 2012 have been um religions in America today. And it's a very like um, I have students go out in the community, um, they have to visit other churches, um, a mosque or a synagogue, and to really do a deep dive into like what these folks here believe. And just it, you know, I'm trained as an ethnographer of religion too. So a historian and an ethnographer, so I've always embedded myself in in people's religious lives, like I do in Catholicism, and to try to understand. And so the point of religions in America Today is really to get students to understand what other people are doing and saying they might not agree, but to get a better understanding, which I believe firmly helps civil discourse and dialogue. So that's my religions in America Today class. I've also developed a sport and religion in America Today class, and to really investigate the pros and cons of sport and sport culture for many Americans becoming their religion. And so it tends to be a class that a lot of athletes take, that a lot of young men take. And it's it's really a lot of fun. Um, I also have taught um a class on American Christianities, where we look at the broad, the depth and breadth of Christian expressions in the United States. I'm an Americanist, so all my classes have focused on the US for the most part and Mexico, some. I've also taught gender and religion, so we really get into that. So I will just say, by and large, Tony, in all of my classes, I work on the skills of my students of reading deeply, of engaging in dialogue, coming up with their own analysis, being able to express their own views. And so in the class that I'm gonna teach in the fall, um, I'm not, it's not exactly decided yet because I was just asked to teach it, but I do know it's gonna be very skills-based and it's gonna be very analog, very 80s style. So no phones, no laptops in the classroom.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Students are gonna be right, yes, we're going old school, Tony. Uh, because I do find, you know, students these days, you know, their attention spans aren't what they were. Yeah. And so I think students need us. Now, I use my laptop, I use AI to look up things, you know, and I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about generative AI, but if we're using it to think for us and to do the work for us, I think that's a really dangerous slippery slope. So, what I'm gonna do in my class is it's gonna be a small class. I think it's gonna be the sport and religion in America class, either that or religion's America today, whatever my department chair wants me to teach. And so we're gonna um, I'm gonna give each student a notebook, pens, I'm gonna print out all the readings for them. Um, we're gonna do group work. They're probably also gonna visit some local churches and do like some short reports on it. So I really want um students to have a time and space to think more deeply, to have dialogue with each other in the classroom. Maybe we can go out for coffee as a class once a week, maybe, you know, and so that's I really want to uh have a class where we really form a learning community and where they can use those skills as a springboard to their other classes, you know, whether they're business major, engineering major, pre-med, you know, that they'll be deeper thinkers. Yeah, I'm excited to tell you that our um religious studies department, we are merging July 1st with um the classics department. So we're gonna be CARS, classics religious studies, which I think is a good thing. So we're gonna have classically trained scholars on, you know, Homer, you know, the Iliad, Greeks and Romans merging with our religious studies department. So I think that cars, you know, there's gonna be strength in numbers. And so we're gonna have classicists working along, you know, what I've always loved about religious studies is that you get faculty who are more theologically trained, maybe in seminaries, you get um historians, you get um folks who study um some of my studies, uh colleagues study, you know, ancient Chinese religions, other others Hinduism, others Islam, others like myself, Christian traditions and Catholicism. And so I'm really excited about it because we'll have a not only will we have a bigger department, but I think we'll be able to really um appeal to students also who want to learn Greek and Latin, right? Those classes are offered, right? Um, and a lot of pre-med students, you know, want to learn Latin, right, for medical school. So um I'm excited about the possibilities of this new merger and to see what will unfold. And um our new our department chair, Paul Dilly, is a really great scholar, and he's doing really cool work using AI to um read ancient texts, right? Because some of these old documents, right, they're on parchment paper and you can't touch them to translate them. But using um, you know, like devices through AI to read these texts without damaging them, that's gonna give our students greater access to reading, you know, old texts, right? So I'm excited. I'm excited because I think students who take classics and religious studies classes are gonna learn languages, they're gonna learn history, they're gonna learn anthropology of religion, they're they're gonna have a lot of opportunities to do deep dives into religion and over thousands of years. So um, yeah, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

And it sounds like uh through with the bedrock of religion and uh those classics, uh they learn uh a certain level of curiosity and then uh skills that they can take. You know, if you have to make a big pitch to your boss, it's nice to have uh an ability to craft a narrative in your uh favor. And if if it's uh it starts with religion, but you can use that in other skill sets. And I know uh I spent about nine years on a college campus as uh professor, and it's nice when you can see an adjunct professor at Morningside, and uh it's nice when you can see the the light come on and and like they get it, and you can see the development from day one until the end of class, and then uh you know, after graduation, some stay in touch, and it's just nice that they're getting the most out of their money and their time investment on a college campus.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

I love what you just said, and you get it. Oh my gosh, as a teacher yourself, you when when you see that light come on, and I like to think of it, you know, we oftentimes think of what what you just so beautifully described, Tony. People oftentimes call them soft skills. I call them, I mean, I think they're power skills. When our students can can read and understand and form an argument and have the confidence, I mean, those skills are transferable, right? They transfer to any major. And you know, I think with so much emphasis these days, and I understand as a mom of three, college is expensive. I understand why we're focusing so much on the job market and certain jobs. Yes. And also, I think the beauty of a university and college system is that you know, you know, we're like trade schools, but we're different. We're we're also teaching the kinds of humanity skills that employers are saying they really, really want. So many students who graduate sadly across the United States really don't know how to write or read or communicate well. And so I think the the more we can focus on that, if our student goes into Tippee College of Business or Engineering or Pre-Med or Law, they'll be better at their jobs, right? So I'm excited. I think cars will be a major that will be very strong on campus, that where our students will get those, you know, power, skills, transferable skills for anything they do in their lives. So yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Okay, we we said it was a village of people that uh were big fans of that article. So I got this note from our executive director, Tim Swedeen, and uh he said that the biggest complaint from local Catholics is the lack of community in the church. How is it possible to build on a community within the church here in the Siouxland area and beyond?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Boy. You know, that's such a great, insightful question, really, right? I mean, I think that sociologists have coined this term, I mean, gosh, I think in the 60s, that we need third spaces as humans outside of work and home, people need third spaces. I think churches can and should be a powerful third space. And so, how do we make, whether we're Catholic or Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, how do we make churches, parishes, third spaces? Oh my gosh, by offering, you know, coffee, donuts, meat, and also where people might go to the parish or the parish hall, but where you meet people where they are, like, I don't know, maybe in a parking lot. I know this is kind of like COVID era, but maybe have one night where people can bring a beverage, BYOB, whether it's NA or out, you know, whatever, and just sit around a fire pit and just talk, or like, where maybe, you know, like what evangelical churches have done so well. And I will say they they have long had strong parachurch movements. This was a term coined by Robert Wutnow, a very famous sociologist of religion who was at Princeton for many, many years. Bob Wutnow, awesome sociologist of religion. He coined the term parachurch. So what evangelicals have done, they had home churches, right? You like you'd have your small groups where you go to church and then you'd have your small group of maybe 15 people and you you do like, you know, progressive dinners, or you would, you know, meet outside around fire pit. I think Catholics can do this too, right? Just put out your your chairs in your driveway and say, hey, Friday night, we're gonna be out for a few hours. We'll have beer or, you know, mocktails, and you just come and we'll just chat. I think that the time is right for doing that, you know, and for individuals at churches who work with youth, you know, having safe spaces for youth to show up, whether it's in the parish hall, in the driveway, you know, like saying, hey, we're gonna block off the street for part, you know, part of a night. I think that third spaces, we need them and people want them. Young people want them. And I do think that, yeah, I think young people are ready for it. Um, you know, my street in, I will tell you in Iowa City, Iowa, I love my street. I love my neighborhood, Abbey Lane. We we'll put out our, we'll put, and you know, and and this isn't a religious thing. This is just like being a neighbor thing, right? Let's be a good neighbor. Let's put our chairs out. And if we see one of our neighbors having chairs, we'll bring our chairs out. Halloween night's always a big night. We all put our fire pits out in our driveway. We sit out, we give out candy, we chat, you know. I just think like that that's all it has to be. Simple. Put out a chair, marshmallows, some beverages, and people will show up.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

That's a good point. And uh we have uh an event here called Curious Catholics, where it's about once every couple of months where Father Randy Schoen talks about a certain topic, uh perhaps uh the history of Israel or some things that are in the news, and then we have Mardo Brewing come and uh we have uh some beer and then people can listen. And uh it's just uh it's fun to see uh it's back to curiosity. And uh, if you want to find out more, I think it's a great venue for that. There's obviously some companionship and it's fun. And that's been one of our favorite uh events with the Catholic Radio is sponsoring those events and even capturing some of the audio, putting it on the radio, and and that's uh that's kind of fun. But I I think we found the title of this uh the show and then later podcast, People Need Third Spaces. I love that that line.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Yes, and that is not my phrase. Okay. No, it is not, it is oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm blinking. It was a sociologist. I should I should look it up really quick, um, or I could send it to you later. Um, a sociologist in the 70s, late 60s, 70s coined it. And you know, what's interesting is that a lot of people I hear using that phrase third space, you know. But yeah, I mean, the church is like a natural third space. For me growing up, oh my gosh, my Lutheran church was a third space. I was very involved. I was, you know, youth group head. I just I thought for a while I was gonna be a pastor. I mean, I just it was a very important place for me as a young person. And um, yeah, just in my growth. Yeah, I love that you do curious Catholics. I know some parishes have done like Catholicism on tap. I think there was a priest at one point in like in the early 2000s who would go around a universe, maybe Newman Centers and do Catholicism on tap. But I love that meeting in pubs, meeting in the parish hall. Um, and again, it it could be beer and and NA beer. I mean, I think that's great.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I think we have the name. Was it sociologist Ray Oldenburg? Is that who coined the yes?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Ray Oldenburg, yes, Ray Oldenburg. Oh my gosh, yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

That was uh AI assist on that one. So thank you to AI. See there is some value.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

There's some value. I mean, and and you know, he gave us the name, AI, whoever it is, gave us the name. Yes, Ray Oldenburg, yeah, there are spaces. And you know, I don't know if you've heard another sociologist, Robert Putnam. He had that famous book, Bowling Alone, that was kind of depressing. You know, it was basically like the rise and fall of American community. But what he said was like, you know, but but he's come out with other books since then, basically saying we're better together. And, you know, like for example, my dad was part of a church bowling league. The loot, there are a bunch of Lutheran guys got together. I don't know if they bowled against Catholics or not, but it was a big night for my dad. And he would take my sister and I sometimes, and we would sit and have popcorn and drink coke. I remember unfortunately, those are the days when you could smoke in bowling alleys. And I probably lost five years of my life, you know, doing those. But I think, you know, the bowling leagues, oh my gosh. And I'm always curious, like, are bowling leagues a place anymore? What like what are new third spaces? Like, I think in town here in Iowa City, the Dairy Queen on Riverside Drive is a third space. I tell you what, from the day they open up, there is a line. People, you know, are in line for hours to get a $2 cone. You know, they sit by the river, the students will walk with their cones back to their dorms. I mean, it could be a Maverick uh, you know, it could be any place, uh a Maverick gas station where people, you know, men meet for coffee once a week. It could be a diner, it could be a bar, it could be Curious Catholics event. I think if we if we if we are intentional of having more third spaces, we will be better as a nation. Um, and I think the more we unplug and get off our phones, um, the better we'll be.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

And that uh actually adds some uh credence there to uh sport as religion. A lot of people view those uh venues at uh Kinneck and Memorial Stadium in Lincoln as that third space, and and there's almost kind of a religious component to that. And so that's uh uh you can uh use uh the quote there from uh Ray Oldenburg to uh as one of your course discussions, too.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

I love well, you know uh Tony, you just gave me an idea. I'm probably gonna do that. That's good. The reason the reason why I I love offering the sport and religion too, it's a good way to get young men in the class. And you know, young men are really are really struggling, you know. We've seen a lot of articles, and as a mother of sons, I have, you know, daughter as well. You know, you know, there's all kinds of you know, ways that they're told to be a man. And I think that um in a sport and religion class, they can they can be curious, they can go to a sporting event, something they already like to do. And I think that the more we can do to connect with young men, again, as a mom of boys, and you know, my middle guy is a high school soccer player, we would have a passel of boys over every day. And you know, our young men need to see that we're invested in them and that we're offering courses that are interesting to them and that take them seriously, you know. That's very cool. Plus, I love sports too, so it's fun.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Our guests this morning, Christy, Nob and Warren, we're running out of time here just a little bit, but uh also uh uh we had a lot of positivity here today and some real talk about Charlie Kirk and kind of the range of emotions. Uh, this is another suggestion from our executive director, Tim Sweetine. From your perspective, what what are some of the biggest complaints about the Catholic Church that you hear or that uh been associated in your classes?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Yeah, well, I mean, this is a touchy subject, but I think we we can't we have to name it. I think the sex abuse scandal in the church has really, really harmed its reputation. And students that I have had um over the last 20 years, um, Catholic students really wrestle with it. They're ashamed by it. I have not known any student themselves who have been abused, um, but I have Catholic friends my age who were and who left the church because of it. So I think there has to be a reckoning, and I think there has to be um, I mean, the church has obviously paid out, you know, millions of dollars. But I think that folks in the church now, you know, have have to address it. It's the elephant in the room and just say it's been that was a really dark, that has been a dark part of the Roman Catholic Church's history. It has been aided and abetted, unfortunately, by people in positions of power, but now's the time to address it. And I think it's related. I think if the church addresses it and says we effed up and we covered up a lot of this, now we're turning the page. We want to be, and we know we can be a place where young people are truly cared for and truly loved in appropriate ways. Um, I think now's the time to really address it. And I think that that has absolutely hurt. I mean, people always say it to me, how can you study Catholicism? Or how can you with all this? And I say, well, you know, nothing, no one or no institution, I think, should be defined by one chapter. I think as humans and as institutions, we're always capable of change. And the church is an institution made of people who believe in Jesus Christ and the salvific power of Jesus Christ. So the humans who run the human institution need to acknowledge the damage, need to acknowledge the pain, and be there for the survivors and the victims and really think deeply about how we can turn the page to the next chapter, but by denying it or by not talking about it. But I do think that that is a huge issue. And I know it's a touchy subject, but um I think there has to be a reckoning with that.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

I know it was uh about three to four weeks ago as we taped this. Uh Bishop Johnny Keener, a new bishop here for the uh diocese of uh Sioux City, uh, did have a mass and and prayed for those victims of sexual abuse. And and I thought it was uh uh, you know, very uh open and honest. And uh I can't remember ever growing up that was a situation in the you know late 70s, early 80s church where we had that type of uh prayer service for those um sexual assault victims. And so uh I think that uh it's starting to turn a little bit and there's uh definitely more of a a spotlight on that.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

I'm really glad. Well, and and again, again acknowledging that it's sadly it's not only it hasn't only been a US Catholic Church issue, it's global, right? It is global. And so I think that with any institution, right, religious or secular, you know, we're humans, we're sinful, right? People sin, right? And I think that, you know, I think that one of the problems with contemporary society is that we have really moved away from the idea of sin, you know, and that we've got to really wrestle with the fact that we all sin. And and this was obviously a big one. And um how are we gonna move on? So that makes me really that that heartens me that it is being named and addressed. Um, so I think that the more that this is addressed and named, and those who have been victims are welcomed back into the fold and truly feel that they are part of the community and that the church takes responsibility. I think that's really important. I also think that um, you know, I think we've talked about this a little bit already, Tony, but you know, you mentioned it with a young adult who was who went to Mass and then who went to the big church service on Easter. I think that the more that we have intra-Christian dialogue, the better we are. I mean, those old, you know, I mean, certainly Protestants and Catholics have doctrinal differences that we just can't get around, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Um transubstantiation within the Catholic Church versus consubstantiation, you know, symbolism of Jesus, you know, the Virgin Mary, um, dogmas about the virgin. I mean, there are some key differences, but I think that, you know, Protestants and evangelicals and Catholics actually have more in common. So perhaps embracing what we have in common more than our differences. And I'm saying this also on a meta level as Americans, like, okay, um, no matter who we voted for, right? Or who we vote for, can we find a place in the middle where we can come together and say, this is who we want to be as Americans. This is what we represent, these are our values. And we might not agree on everything, but what can we agree on to move forward, right? I think we have to. I don't want to get all political, but I think that can't we come together? And maybe think about how we can make our country better together, right? And I think that this holds true for Christians too, right? Rather than getting mired in our doctrinal differences, being like, yeah, we all love the idea of Jesus. We all love the man Jesus, who he represented, who he was, the beatitudes. Maybe find those things that can align us, right? We want to raise our kids to be kind and good people who help people. We want to raise good Samaritans. You know, maybe on those basic things, you know. I think we we could all do better, not just the Roman Catholic Church.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

I can tell that uh this had uh very much be a calling for you. What uh what did you learn at an early age is something you wanted to pursue as your career? Because uh the the level of cognitive thought that you've put in, and I I can't imagine uh sitting in a classroom where this is discussed, you know, and uh an organizational level, but uh you're so gifted at this and and it's so nice that uh this has become your calling and this is something that obviously you're always striving for it. When did it hit you that this is what you wanted to do?

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Oh, Tony, I really appreciate that. You know, I always tell young people don't lock yourself into one career because things will change, right? And and that's okay. Change is good, but I think when we think about who we are as a person, like I when I talk to young people, I'm like, what excites you? What brings you joy? How do you see yourself moving in the world? And for me, I mean, I really, really did think about being a pastor when I was in high school. So I think, and I didn't go that route. I want the the route of becoming an academic of religion. Um, because I'm a nerd. I love reading, I love studying, I love being a student. I love being a student, and I tell my students, I am a lifelong student. I never have my students call me Dr. Nav Hanmorn. They usually call me Dr. Christy, which I like because I want I don't want to. So I I guess my calling is to be pastoral. I want to be a presence of support and active listening and joy to whomever I meet. I, as a mother, I want to be a lighthouse parent, I guess. I want to be the kind of parent who doesn't hover, you know, doesn't like isn't always there, like so my kid doesn't make their own decisions. I want to be the kind of parent who my kids know they can come to, but I want to give my kids permission to find their own way and to not have mom always looking over their shoulder. That's how I'm um I am a teacher too. I want to walk alongside my students, like I walk alongside my own children to discover who they are, what their values are, how they want to carry themselves in the world. And I will tell my students, if students say, well, Dr. Kay, like what do you think about this? I'll share it. But I'm like, just because I think that doesn't mean you have to think that I want to walk alongside you so that you come up with your own informed views and beliefs in the world. And so what I'm actually telling people these days, because I'm I am a teacher, I'm a researcher, I'm a mom, and I'm an administrator, I'm calling myself an academic doula. I had a doula, I had a doula and a midwife with all my birds, you know, I home birth my last two. And I'm like, I am here to be a support. And so I think if you ask if people ask me now who I am, I am like, I carry myself as a doula. I am not a trained doula, a birth doula. But you know, we have birth doulas and we have death doulas. What about having doulas in the middle for the the majority of life?

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

And so I'm actually gonna work on a book on this, Tony. So hopefully when that book comes out, we can talk. But I'm gonna write a book on this where uh, you know, on being, I see so many models of leadership these days, you know, where talking heads, whether they're women or men, you know, saying, This is what you need to do, this is how you need to think. And and I think, well, what if we had a model of leadership that was more aligned with being a doula, where we say, okay, let me walk alongside you, let me support you, let me challenge you, but let me really just be a system of support for you. Because life is hard. Life is freaking hard, right? Bad things happen. We sin, we make mistakes. We need to know that we've got people in our lives that have our back. And my students and my kids, my husband, my people know I have their back, my colleagues. And so I think if you ask me what my calling is, is it really is to be a life doula, an academic doula to support my people, you know. That's what I feel I was called to be to do on this earth.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Seal and Catholic Radio signed on the year in 2008. This is the first time we featured an academic doula on the airwaves. So we're making history here this morning on Faith and Action.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

We're making history. I know some of my friends are like, you need to trademark that phrase. That's really good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Love it.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

But yeah, I'm gonna work on a book. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

So well, we'll definitely have you back on. Dr. Christy, it's been uh a pleasure talking to you and uh some great thought starters and uh, like I said, range of emotions throughout this interview. And uh I like this uh real dialogue, and I think that's what more uh society needs more of, and and hopefully that dialogue starts uh you know in the family and expands to the church and beyond.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Me too, Tony. I have this has been a delight talking with you. I appreciate you and you reaching out. This has been really fun. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

All right, well, keep up the great work, and uh I am a graduate of the University of Nebraska, but I will say Go Hawkey's.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Hey, yeah, go corn huskers. You guys are great, man.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yeah, we're starting to be a basketball school, so it's a totally new development. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

I know, right? Hey, thanks a lot, Dr. Christie. Hey, thank you, Tony. Have a good day.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Our guest today on Faith in Action, Dr. Christy Nobhan Ward, who wrote about the rise of popularity in Catholicism recently that was picked up by msn.com. You can find a link to the article on our website, ZulangCatholicRadio.com. My name is Tony Michaels, filling it for Joanne Fox, who will return with new episodes of Faith in Action coming up soon. So be on the lookout for that on our social media pages, on Facebook and Instagram. We'd invite you to listen to all of our programming, including local programs like Father Knows Best with Father Mark Stoll, that airs Wednesday nights at 9 p.m., Catholic Ministry Professionals with Jonatai, Tuesdays at 4, Drawn Air with Fred and Kara Wednesdays at 4, and our latest edition life plan, produced by our friends at Spirit Catholic Radio in Omaha, that airs Sunday nights at 8 p.m. We thank you so much for listening to the radio station on air, online, and on the app. Big tip the head to our sponsor today, Mary's Choice. Find out more at our website, schoolandcatholicradio.com. Thanks so much for listening. And God bless.