Faith in Action—Healing from divorce with Carolyn Kilka, May 11, 2026

Carolyn Kilka, the presenter for "Abounding Joy," an online, faith-based opportunity to help with healing for separated and divorced individuals, May 19 and May 21. This program replays at 7 p.m. Saturday, May 16. Faith in Action is brought to you by Mary's Choice, a Sioux City pregnancy resource center. Previous Faith in Action programs can be found at siouxlandcatholicradio.com, on YouTube, and on several other podcasting platforms. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Thank you so much for taking time out of your business and access to the internet. It's all kind of rolling updates. Maybe it's a good idea. That's an idea and then you're tuning in, or maybe it's when you're tuning in. Or maybe you went to our website.com and click on local programs. And then click on data access. You can look into this, you can look into any of our other wonderful local programs we have there. And then we are also taken access on Spotify and a number of the podcasting platforms. That's all data generations of resource centers. It doesn't even matter whether you're in your face turning out. If you feel disconnected from the church, you are welcome to take advantage of this opportunity. So I'm going to just refer you to the code title. Everything you want to know about the equivalent. So, Carolyn, I am so tickled that you are taking time out of your busy schedule to chat with me and enlighten the listeners so they get a little better understanding about what this opportunity might be.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Thank you, Joanne. Thanks so much for having me. And I'm so excited to be able to share with listeners about Catholic resources that are so needed. And people tell me that all the time. Oh, this is so needed in the church. And uh and Joanne, you're doing a great service for by helping to connect the resources that are available with the people who need them. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

You're most welcome, and it is my pleasure, if you can call it that, to uh present something on this because there's a lot of pain and loss and suffering that's associated with divorce, even if it's not the couple themselves. It can be their loved ones, it can be their good friends, and the breakdown of a marriage is a hard, hard thing to deal with. So before we get into the particulars, Carolyn, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, thank you, Joanne. So I'm a lifelong Catholic, and I like to tell the story of kind of my beginnings in the faith, um, which happened through no merit of my own. But when I was a little girl, uh my mother got a knock on the door, and it was Father Lawrence from the local parish. This was in Chicago, and uh and he asked her if she was interested in leading the devout life. And she asked, What's that? And he explained that it means dedicating your life to him and to making him first in your life. And she had a radical conversion uh because of that, and she began uh to attend daily mass and pray the daily rosary, and it just completely changed her life. And when God came for her that day, I always feel like he came for me as well because Father Lawrence knocked on my second birthday. And so I never remember a time when I didn't know and love Jesus, he was real to me from a young child, and I know like what a blessing that is, because that's not the situation that that many people have had. And so uh I feel like that is such a gift, and because of that gift and many other things, uh I'm in a position and being called to to help extend that gift to others, to know and to love Jesus and to draw closer to him. And in this particular way, um uh in talking about separation and divorce, I'm also a child of divorce from the age of six. And then um I was married, and I the number one thing in my life that I wanted was to have an intact, happy, healthy, and holy marriage. And uh and I I married and um had a very difficult marriage um in ways that I I couldn't have foreseen. And um my my husband, uh, after 30 years uh of with five children, we had three biological children and then two adopted from Russia, which were all of them immense blessings. Um, but after the first five years of marriage, he was no longer able to work. And so I was essentially like a single mother uh with five children and then taking care of an ill husband. And um he had some profound struggles, and after 29 years of marriage, made the decision to be because of his gender identity disorder, um, he made the decision to uh transition to presenting as a female, and in doing so, thereby defaulted on his role as husband and father. And so that was of course in incredibly devastating. It was the thing that I the as I said, the number one thing that I I didn't want to have happen in my life after I had grown up um as a child of divorce. I didn't want that for my children. But thanks be to God, during that whole discernment of uh separation and then divorce and went through uh annulment as well from the diocese to the archdiocese all the way to Rome. Um my uh I felt like the Lord was right next to me, teaching me so many things and showing me things like uh he showed me uh a field with landmines, and the landmines were temptations to sin. And he showed me that going through this, that that I was at of in in a very spiritually uh vulnerable place, and so that I had to be very careful to avoid those landmines. And uh, you know, the landmines were sins like bitterness, anger, greed, resentment, wrath, all of those things, many more. Because, you know, for most of us, you know, we don't have necessarily a tremendous number of temptations to sin. We all have some. They're the ones that we go to confession over and over for over and over and over. You're right, I I realized that this was a period that was really dangerous spiritually. So um God helped me. Uh and not that I walked through it without sin. I certainly didn't, but I felt like the Lord really coached me through that whole process. And after I came through it and I was sharing my story with other people, I figured they would have known that these things as well, and they didn't. And so over time I realized that um after I had gone through a very profound healing journey um after this devastating in every way uh divorce that uh I was called. The Lord called me and gave me a mission. He gives us all a mission, by the way. We all have one, none of us are exempt. But the mission that he called me to was to walk very closely with the separated and divorced and to help facilitate their healing. And uh the most important part of that is the healing to draw closer to the to uh in their relationship with Christ and the church.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

And that's kind of what we all want, you know, is a a better relationship with with our Lord. I'm curious about the the term abounding joy. How did you discern that? Because I love it. I I just it makes me want to leap up out of my chair and go, praise you, Jesus, hallelujah.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Well, good, good. That's uh that's what the Lord actually wants for us. He you know, he said uh that uh I I I have came have come so that you would have life and have it abundantly. And he he also in Psalms he he said uh David said, You will show me the path to life, abounding joy in your presence. And when we walk with God, how could it be that we do not have joy and and do not have peace amid all the struggles? Because this life is painful, but we can be walking in pain and suffering, as many of the saints did, most of them had great suffering, but they also had an inner joy because when you have that relationship with Christ, there's nothing in this life that can supersede or overshadow the joy of knowing the Lord and his love for us.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Oh, very well stated. I I love that. So you've talked uh quite a bit about you know the Catholic aspect and your Catholicism, but uh the bottom line is do people who want to attend, do they have to be Catholic?

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Joanne, they don't have to be anything except for wanting to come. We have people who are not Catholic, we have people who are really angry at God, um, disenfranchised, and and I would say, come. There's there's no judgment. You know, God goes to where we are, he doesn't say to us, clean yourself up, dust yourself off, make yourself presentable, and then come to me. That's not his way. He will go to us and bring us from wherever we are. The black sheep was lost and probably in a mud pit. And and he he comes to us. So he loves us so much that he'll come to us where we are, but he loves us so much that he doesn't want to leave us there. He wants to draw us closer to him. So whoever you are, wherever you are, uh even if you're if you're the most devout in your own mind, uh the most devout Catholic and the most healed, it's for you as well. Because there's always new information, and people say, even well-catechized people will say, Oh, I I there were just a few points that really resonated that I've never heard before. Because the information that we present in the evening for the separated and divorced, it's not like high chair theology, it's really God's love for us and the truths applied to our actual situation, because sometimes things are too complex for us. And we're saying, like, for example, the Bible says we we should, you know, love our neighbor and be kind. But what do I do when my spouse or ex-spouse is doing X, Y, or Z? How does what do I do? Scripture doesn't tell me that, gives me the road, but doesn't show me the the exact tools. And and that's what we do with divorce um healing ministry is to marry the uh the spiritual with the emotional, the interpersonal, the the physical, and the very practical. We weave that all together because we are body, mind, soul, and spirit. We're holistic people. And God wants and desires our healing in all those areas. And so we address all of that. Very practical.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah, it sounds like it. And I think, you know, um all of us uh uh l listeners, you know, um boy, if we don't have uh someone we know or love or uh who has experienced uh divorce or separation. You know, we uh we kind of uh feel disconnected from them. And I think perhaps uh they feel disconnected from others as well. But I wonder there must be some commonality that you have done this for a while. What are some of like the common struggles faced by you know the people who are separated or divorced or their loved ones or their acquaintances, co-workers maybe uh kind of goes across the board. So what what would you say are maybe some common struggles?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

The common struggles that lead to separation and divorce. Um I would say I would put people in three categories. One is uh a person who absolutely does not want separation or divorce, but they are forced into it because their spouse has has left and has filed. And so they really are they're not active participants, they are uh having to respond and deal with the situation as it comes. So that's one group. The second group would be people who are suffering so much because of uh addiction, abuse, um, many other situations, infidelity in their marriage, and they have tried and tried so long and they feel that they can no longer live um and by staying in it, or they're in so much danger that they they need to get out. So that would be the second group. And then the third group are those who choose to leave because they are seeking happiness, they're they're unhappy, they're maybe have found someone else that they they're not finding the fulfillment that they thought they would. Um, and oftentimes those are not the people who seek divorce ministry, although sometimes it is. Sometimes we have either men or women who have uh greatly offended their spouse, they in in their words, and and so their spouse left them out of necessity in their mind, and so they're trying to heal now after being what they would judge as the perpetrators. So um, so abuse, infidelity, uh pornography is a huge cause of divorce, um that that even uh not only divorce, but just great unhappiness in in marriage because it is a type of infidelity and it is an addiction and it is so uh so unfortunate, uh not what marriage was meant to be.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

And I also wondered, you know, a lot of times all of those things that you just mentioned are are the reasons why, you know, people will step away from a marriage. But one of the um well, I don't know how I would call it uh uh repercussions is even if there is abuse or infidelity or some horrific thing that causes someone to step away from a marriage, there's also um the reaction of others that sometimes it's that is difficult to deal with as well because it's hard to explain to other people why it tends to walk away from a marriage. And I I I would guess the fact that that kind of sentiment is expressed in these kinds of events because it isn't just about the couples, it's about other people's houses or maybe judging well, you know, maybe you should have stayed and maybe it wasn't that bad, or what are you thinking or you know or even the end of a relationship with a friend, a loved one, um a relative, a co-worker. That that's got to be almost as devastating as the end of a marriage.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah, there are not only does a divorced person experience the loss of their spouse and their their home and their uh the finances, there are so many other losses. Their identity is is the primary one. Who am I now? But you're right, the community, their friends, the in-laws, there are so many losses there. And when you talk about people judging, I you can't see it because we're on radio, but I'm raising my hand because I was one of those people, to be honest. I when I would hear about someone divorcing, my thought was, well, they should have tried harder. Why did they give up? And and that was because that was my level of understanding. I didn't I didn't know it was ignorance. And I know that uh many people are in the same situation. If their marriage is fine, uh they they don't have a sense of what it could be like. And so what I would say to people is that we want to help people to discern rightly about uh uh any separation or divorce, there are valid and invalid reasons to separate or divorce that the church says right in canon law, um, some of the the valid reasons. And so uh when people are trying to discern, when they feel like, oh, I just don't know if I can stay any longer in this terrible situation, I'm being destroyed by maybe you know cruel verbal abuse, what whatever the situation is. And uh it's it's very important that that they walk with someone who does understand the the teachings of the church because some of those marriages cannot be saved, um the marital relationship, um, and there is absolute danger. And the church does not want our destruction, the church does not expect us to stay in a dangerous situation.

unknown 20:15

No.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

And at the same time, there's there are a lot of marriages with clients that I've worked with, there's several dozen marriages that have been saved because when they understand that uh when they under can understand their spouse a little more, when they have the tools, when we can shift the gear up into heroic virtue and give them a vision for what could be and what their reaction to their spouse and how they can love them. Um sometimes marriages can be saved. And so that's probably about a third of the work that I do is helping people discern and making sure that they have the tools and that they have done every last thing possible to try to solve the situation in their marriage. Because if they don't, one of the effects of the divorce is regret, lament, and self-discrimination. Maybe I should have stayed. And I've I've dealt with people like that too. Why didn't I try harder? Because they don't see when you're struggling in a marriage, you think of divorce as a solution, as a relief from the aggravation and the pain. But what we can't see on the other side is all of the problems that happen as a result of it and all the losses. And as you said, the in-laws, the friends, the community, the fellow parishioners, they're looking at us either with judgment sometimes, but more often it's with discomfort. They don't know what to do. It's kind of like if somebody, you if you find out that your neighbor has cancer, well, some people will run right over and say, Oh, I heard you have cancer, here's a casserole, here's what can I do for you? But most people don't. They stay away. Why? Not because there's a judgment there, but because there's a fear, uh, it's an awkward discomfort. And and even though that's probably the primary ri response that people have, the divorced person views it as judgment because the the relationship has been cut off.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah, absolutely. And listeners, if you're just tuning in now, I want to remind you this show is Faith in Action. I'm your host, Joanne Fox, and I had urged you, if you started listening at the beginning of the show, to get a pen and a pencil or a piece of paper or altary or whatever iPad you might be using. The Diocese of Science City is hosting an event. It is an evening for the separated and divorced. It is May 19th at 7 p.m. This is online. It is also May 21st at 9 p.m. online again. And if you go to Diocese of Sick City and Google it, uh type in divorce at separated, it will come up with registration. And I I've overlooked one of the most important things that is free. And that is absolutely wonderful that the diocese is offering to do this. And other dioceses and archdiocese are also participating. And then there is some in-person opportunities as well in other dioceses. But for the diocese of city, it is online. So uh again, you know, a free event May 19th, May 21st. And on the phone with me is the individual who is going to facilitate this. Carolyn Clicker, you know. She is a Catholic divorce ministry coach, she's a founder of Abounding Joy Ministry. And this is an evening of prayer, encouragement, teaching, question and answer. And it is for people separated and divorced. And I still appreciated Carolyn, you talking about that, you know, the church is here for us to accompany us, you know, through this pain. And it's a loss on divorce and a lot of times separation as well. But sometimes when the church encourages us to get involved with our Catholic faith, there's hope, there's healing for it. And I was so difficult you mentioned that sometimes uh people can see past a lot of the challenges and maybe say, you know, I think we have the opportunity to fix this and keep our marriage intact because there's a lot of grace that comes along with the sacrament of marriage. We kind of know this. But we also acknowledge um, you know, that some marriages cannot be safe. And you don't want to be in a situation of abuse, infidelity, um, you know, addiction. There's there's so many things. Um so I I thought that was really wonderful that you know you you talked about that there is also an opportunity to move on. But what I'm thinking, listeners might be thinking to themselves is oh I don't know if this is for me. I I don't know if I can share, you know, what's going on in my life because I uh uh maybe someone will judge me, or maybe Carolyn will judge me. And so many of these things are so personal and private. Sometimes we can't even share them with our Lord because they just break our heart. So maybe you could address that a little bit as to, you know, I'm an individual and I might want to take advantage of this. And what's my my input into all of this? What's my investment?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah, that's a great question because you're you you hit it spot on that uh people uh these these wounds are so deep and they're so raw and and so deeply personal. And so the good news is there is nothing that you have to share about your situation, even who you are. You you do need to register so that you can get the Zoom link, but I'm basically the only person who sees that, you know, your your first name and your email. Uh during the evening for the separated and divorce, there is presentation. We have prayer, there's some content. Um, there's a lot of myths and misconceptions about separation and divorce. And a lot of times correcting those, um, clearing up the confusion and and speaking the truth into our hearts about our our true identity and and about forgiveness and about how to hear the voice of God. And some of these topics that that through polls I've determined are the most important topics for people in this situation. Um, so I'm presenting that, but you uh it the registration, the people who register can uh type in the chat at certain times or not, but at the end, toward the end, there's a QA period where you know the listeners uh can either type a question in in the chat or they can actually come on camera and ask if they if they would like. But uh it can be all anonymous or they can show up and speak. So it's uh and some people are in one camp and and some people in the other. And there is no judgment. I don't know anything about you know their situation. I have no basis to judge, and I and I have no license to judge either. And uh, and so I think that's something that is is a great relief to people that we know who the the just judge is, and that's our Lord. And and if we are judging other people, we need to stand up and move our seat into another place because that is his, the judgment seat is his. Scripture is very clear about that, and so we can say we can judge uh a behavior like hitting someone in the face, that we can judge that as wrong, how guilty they are in judging their soul, that's up to the Lord, and so that's uh an important distinction. Very much so, yes. Yeah, it's just a very safe and a very peaceful and a very loving evening where you hear that you are that you are loved, that you are accepted, that you are not a second class Catholic, that you don't have a big letter, red letter D uh on your face. We talk about what your true identity is and um and some some little tools, you know, just we don't have a lot of time, but just some tools that that you can use to begin the process to heal and and to move into next steps. And as I said at the end with the the QA period, any question is acceptable uh to you know to bring up and ask if it's a question that's on your heart.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Oh, that that's the best part because I think all of us have questions regardless of where we're at in our our marital status. And you've done this before. I know this is uh this is not your first rodeo. What do participants tell you uh after they experience this? I mean, what are you hearing from them about uh what they appreciated or maybe even you know something you hadn't thought of before that somebody said have maybe you should add this to the um the experience? I'm just real curious about what the feedback has been.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yeah, that's a great question. So one of the things that uh I'm very big on is uh is research. So I actually poll people, I send people um a poll ahead of time, and it's just this you know, it's just check boxes, so it's easy. And I ask them, what are the topics that are most important for you? And and so over time, and you're right, I have done this multiple, multiple times for different various dioceses, and and the two in May now they are uh we have registrations from all over the country and uh and even outside. Um the last ministry event that I did, we had people from seven countries and over 50 dioceses who who registered. But um, but so in that poll, people will will kind of rank what is the what are the topics that are most important, great of greatest interest to them. And so I really gear my conversation to those those top uh points. And what do people say afterwards? They say I felt loved, and it's been a long time since I've felt that way. I felt cared about. I got some questions answered that I didn't know even, I didn't even have the question formulated, but uh, but I needed the answers, and I didn't realize how much the church cares about me because maybe my pastor or my you know, my pastor is busy, maybe there's some couple people in the church that, you know, I have done something that have uh have hurt me. And so they they talk about understanding the universal church better, understanding what church teaching is. And um oftentimes people will comment about how much it helped them to uh to have their authentic identity validated.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Oh, that's powerful because I think we all look for that affirmation in our lives, in our choices, especially from our loved ones or our relatives, um, our friends, maybe co-workers. You know, we're always looking for that because you know, that is important to our self-worth. And like you said, you know, you have done this quite a few times. I was really impressed with the the uh numeral numerous countries that that had um individuals participating, because then it kind of does speak to the universal church. But um I I just have to ask you, do you have one of those what I call um uh like um stories that uh you like to tell people? Like, I'll never forget this. I mean, we all do. I've been in journalism my whole life, and people will say, you know, what was the most interesting story you ever did? And I just say the last one I did, because it's the last one I remember, and I don't remember the other thousands. But is there um, you know, uh over a cocktail at a party, you know, where somebody says, Oh, Carolyn, you know, you continue to do this, but you know, what's something that's really resonated with you?

SPEAKER_00 33:35

There are so many that I do remember, but I'll I'll choose one. And and that is it's a a gentleman from the Midwest who actually called me on the phone, and this was uh this was not uh a response to the evening, but to the 12-week uh healing program, Build a New Life workshop that will be running again in the fall. And he called me and he said, I I'm interested in in the workshop, but I'm afraid that I will be bullied, that I won't be accepted, because that's been my experience in life, and that happened in my marriage. And and I said, I can't guarantee you what your experience will be, but I will guarantee you that you will be met with utter kindness and acceptance, and there will be no no bullying on my watch. And so he signed up and he he went through the 12-week workshop, and he as he said, he said, it was like my hand was taken and placed into the hand of Jesus, and that he started out as like a scared rabbit. Um and he as his leadership and as his masculinity and his authentic identity was validated, he began to exhibit leadership um in in the group and was actually loved by all for how authentic he was, and he did begin to trust and and he did release some of his fears. And and now he is a completely different man, completely different, and and he attributes it to the the work that the Lord did through Build a New Life Workshop.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Oh, that is that is powerful, and that is very gratifying to hear that uh someone gained so much personally, and of course that's what you know you want to have happen. But I wonder, you know, uh everybody's busy and maybe they can't attend, you know, these two um virtual opportunities. You know, what if they can't? What if they can't attend? W how could they possibly get access to you know these insights and and this kind of support?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Well, if they're interested, but the timing is wrong for them, uh they should go and register and then and then they can receive a replay after the fact. One of the uh one of the two evenings, I'll select the best one. And and uh we'll send it out to to those who were not able to attend. So just register and you know, a few days after the events you'll receive uh the the recorded. It's the recording is the teaching, not the Q ⁇ A, because we protect protect the confidentiality of those who ask questions. But you would be able to receive the the replay of the presentation.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Excellent. So listeners, if you're writing all this down, be sure and register. We all know things happen. You know, you you come down with some bug and you're sick, or um, you know, um something happens, an accident, you know, you have to go be with a loved one or funerals. Uh, you know, the list is never ending for all of us. We are busy people. So that's what I would say as uh Carolyn did, uh just register for the event because it is free. And so that would be so important. So we're kind of getting close to the end of and Carolyn, I know we have listeners who are listening and going, well, this is all very nice. You know, I'm so glad the diocese is doing this. What would you say to kind of nudge somebody to get off that fence and register?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Well, our goal is not to get people registered, our goal is to help people heal and to to thrive and to discover their the mission that God has for them in their life going forward. So I would say choose your best option. Um, what I hear from many people is that there aren't a lot of options, there aren't a lot of resources, especially not free ones that you can just jump on online. And so if you have another option, uh choose it. Uh, I'm not aware of it. I would love to know. But but the thing is, you deserve support and healing, you deserve guidance and accompaniment and um and you deserve healing. God desires that for you. And so if you're in a stuck place, if you're in a um halfway healed place, if you think I'm pretty healed, a lot of times people will say that, but when they go to events, they discover, they tell me later, I thought I was healed, and I realized that I had more to go. And and we all do, we all do. So I would say, don't suffer alone. My goal is is for people not to merely survive divorce, but but it's to help individuals move toward restoration, holiness, peace, and renewed purpose, and and to find their mission that only they can fulfill. And the church must become a field hospital for the separated and divorced, you know. So um it's essential. And the priest cannot carry out this pastoral need alone, and and no matter how broken the situation may feel, but Christ still enters these wounds with healing and direction and hope. And so take action um from wherever you are, and uh, and I think you know, when people attend, uh they're very grateful that they did.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah, and that doesn't surprise me because uh throughout this entire conversation that you and I have had, it it's so clear that you know we need this kind of support. So, listeners, um thank you so much for taking time out of your schedules to uh tune in to Faith in Action. We have so many wonderful programs on Tooland Catholic Radio. Uh every day we have the Divine Mercy Chaplet at 3 o'clock. Uh we have Mass every Sunday at 9 a.m. from Modern Day Paris Parents at City. We have this great show for younger people life plan that is Sundays at 8 p.m. And then Catholic Ministry Professionals with John and I that airs Tuesdays at 4 p.m. Uh Draw Near with Fred and Cara every Wednesday at 4 p.m. And Father Mark Stole, Father Knows Best, Wednesdays at 9 p.m. And of course, all of our shows are found at uh Tooland CatholicRadio.com. So I want to thank my guest uh for this episode. Uh um Carolyn Clica Fatino. Thank you so much for all you do for individuals who are struggling for separation, divorce, or just uh any kind of pain in their lives associated with marriage. And and we know it's not easy. But thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to share with me this very important event that the Diocese of Sioux City is putting on.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Thank you for having me, Joanne, and uh and I just want to reach a helping hand out to the community and just say do not walk alone because there is no need to.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

No, there absolutely is not. So, listeners, again I want to remind you the Diocese of Sioux City, in conjunction with other dioceses, is presenting an evening for the separated and divorced. All support and healing. If you're struggling with the pain of separation or divorce, this might be for you. Uh May 19th at 7 p.m. May 21st at 9 p.m. This is all online. It is a free event, and you just go to Diocese of City, um, Google it, click on the divorce and separate it. The registration information is all right there. It is really very easy peasy. So, again, that wraps up another edition of Faith in Action. And I want to remind you that if you tuned in later, um you can find this show or any of the other shows at CLM CatholicRadio.com. We're also on Spotify and a number of other podcasting platforms. That's all due to the generosity of Mary's choice, which is the exclusive underwriter for this show. So on behalf of myself, I'm Joanne Fox. I'm the host of this program. And my executive producer, Ann Reed, I want to remind you that a faithful reaction is always good. But faith in action, it's so much better. Thanks for listening and God bless.