Next Level Play Therapy: A Podcast for Play Therapy Excellence

Why Parent Updates Alone Can’t Fix Stalled Play Therapy Progress

• Cathi Spooner, LCSW, RPT-S • Episode 92

Share episode

Send us a text

🚨 The Big Miss in Traditional Play Therapy (And Why It’s Holding Back Progress)


We talk a lot about helping kids heal using play therapy…


But here’s the truth no one wants to say out loud:


Most traditional play therapy approaches treat the child like they exist in a vacuum.


👀 Reality check:


What kid do you know is paying their own rent, making their own dinner, and handling life without family dynamics shaping them every single day?


Exactly. None.


Families are the ecosystem kids live in. 


Every belief, every meltdown, every bedtime battle—it’s all influenced by the way their family dances together (or doesn’t).


And yet… we often work with kids alone, peeking at the family system through the keyhole of second-hand parent reports.


No wonder some problems keep coming back no matter how many play therapy tools we throw at them.


If you’ve ever wondered – What am I missing? – when progress stalls, you need to be here.


Join me for this free weekly podcast! Because it’s time to stop guessing about the family system and start seeing it for what it really is so your play therapy clients can thrive.

Join my free Facebook Community Play and Expressive Arts Therapy Playground.

Check out my free resources for mental health professionals working with children, adolescents, and families who want to integrate play therapy and expressive arts into their clinical work.

I work with individuals and agencies to develop successful strategies and meet the treatment needs of your child and adolescent clients and their families using play therapy & expressive arts.

Contact me to schedule a free 30-minute video call if you're ready to level up your skills

Cathi Spooner:

Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy. A weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services. We'll explore all things play therapy. To elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play. I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives. So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families. Hey there. Welcome to this week's episode of Next Level Play Therapy. And I am newly back. I guess I got back on Sunday from the Association for Play Therapy Annual Conference. It was awesome. I got some really great information, but it, while I was there, I, it all also kind of reminded me 'cause there was, um, two of the trainings that I was in. They talked a lot about the topic that I'm gonna talk about today. Ish, I would say ish. But it reminded me why what we're gonna talk about today is so important and, and that to me is one of the things that we miss out a lot using our traditional play therapy approaches. Uh, and I say that broadly. Um. I think one of the things that happens is when we're using more of a traditional play therapy approach, then what happens is we miss out on some really important information, and that is a kind of a mindset shift. That children don't exist in a vacuum by themselves. That that they come to you once a week maybe for family play, I'm sorry, they come to you once a week for their individual play therapy sessions. You're spending 45 minutes to an hour with your client. Maybe some of that time is the check-ins. With parents and then you're getting the phone calls in between the sessions or maybe the emails and texts talking about all the things not going right. And the thing is, when we, when we understand that children exist within a family system, then there are some other factors that we miss out on. If we are not shifting the way that we fundamentally view play therapy. And that to me, that was, that was, I was kind of reminded about that so many times over the, over the weekend when I was taking these trainings at the annual conference. And so I was really excited to be able to talk about that a little bit more even today. And, and so the topic that we are talking about today is. Why parent updates alone can't fix stalled play therapy progress because I think, I don't know, I've raise your virtual hand if you have ever felt like you were stalling out. And the feedback you get from the parents is, I've tried what you've suggested and it doesn't work. And, and then, um. Or maybe they'll say something like, oh, that doesn't work for my child. The, the thing is, when we're using more of this traditional approach of individual family, uh, individual play therapy sessions and maybe check-ins at the end, or maybe monthly parent only sessions, then there's a likelihood. When things are feeling stalled, there's a likelihood that there's something missing. And that's what I wanna talk about today. When progress stalls in play therapy, what needs to happen, what's the reason, maybe it, it, it's stalling out and what to do about that. So that's our topic of conversation today. Why parent updates alone can't fix. Play therapy progress stalled, play therapy progress. So if you're watching live, I would love to know who's here today. Post your name in the comments. If you are watching on YouTube or LinkedIn or you are watching live on Instagram. So if you see me going back and forth between, uh, screens, it's because I. S Stream live on YouTube and LinkedIn and then also on Instagram, on my phone.'cause it's the platform I use. It's really clunky. Clunky, that's my new word. Clunky to kind of do. Instagram on Streamy Yard, which is my streaming platform. For those of you watching the replay, maybe you're watching the replay from my Facebook group, or maybe you're watching the replay on YouTube or LinkedIn, or. Or even Instagram, I would still love to know who's here. So post your name in the comments, join the conversation. What questions do you have? What are your experiences? The only thing that I ask is that we don't share specific client information because this is a public format, and so we wanna make sure not to. Um, we, we wanna make sure to maintain privacy and so I'm gonna turn my ins there, Instagram a little bit. Um, so go ahead and post a name. Feel free to send me a message. I love hearing from you guys. I think one of the things that was so cool for me were those of you who are maybe watching on YouTube. Or maybe, uh, watching on Instagram, maybe some of you on my email list. I had another, also somebody from Play Therapy Elevation Circle, which was my kind of brand new play therapy community to get support and consultation with each other. We do a book club in there, so I got to meet in person. We, we connect over Zoom, but it was really, uh, nice. And also somebody from Play Therapy Academy. It's always nice to, because we're connecting. Over the internet and Zoom. It's always, it was nice really connecting with those of you who are watching the replays or maybe watching online, uh, watching the, the live version. It was really cool connecting with you, so I definitely appreciate that you came up and said hello at the conference. One person even reached out by email 'cause you're on my email list and say, Hey, I'm gonna be there. So that was really awesome. That was one of the really cool things about the conference. So that was awesome. Thank you for coming up. Alrighty. So today we are talking about why parent updates alone can't fix stall play therapy progress. So one of the things that I want to, to talk, think about is maybe a core belief that needs to shift. Um, and that core belief in play therapy and I, I would say mental health community in general, unless you are a marriage and family therapist, then the, the core be, and I, I would say probably some social work.'cause in social work we have a tendency to see person in environment, but we still only just work with the individual. Um, and so I think I, I, I feel like I'm a marriage and family therapist in my soul in graduate school, my social work program, we actually, and this was like three, oh, more than three decades ago now. Um, we, in the program that I was in, we only. Looked at family family systems theory. So my, my grounding, my foundational framework is family systems theory. Looking at things systemically and I, and I think. I think in the play therapy community, just like in the wider mental health community, the, our core belief is the best way to help children heal is individual play therapy. And then we'll get updates from parents maybe the last five to 10 minutes of the session. Or maybe you'll do a parent only session. And then maybe get updates by text or emails or phone calls in between sessions as, as you get information and maybe give information about what's going on and maybe give some suggestions to parents about book recommendations or, or, um, strategies to try at home. And then, and then you're usually, um, meeting with the child for an individual play therapy session once a week for maybe 45 minutes to an hour. And the thing is, I get it. We're trained to focus on creating that safe space for our clients so that they can use that free and protected space to work through. Whatever issues that they need to work through and they have a dedicated time that's just for them where they can work through what's going on and maybe find some healing. And then you, you gather parents, you gather information from parents, maybe at the end. Of the session or, or in between because that way you're, you're integrating the parents and you're getting information from them, and maybe you're giving information and doing it this way. Just meeting individually gives you dedicated time to work with your client. And then depending on your play therapy model. You're either going to 100% of the time follow, like child-centered play therapy, or maybe you are totally directive and it's you directing everything or maybe you're somewhere in the middle where sometimes you lead and sometimes you follow. And so, and that way you can, you can get information from clients. You can. Um, help to teach them some strategies and new skills and new ways of meeting their needs. And, and the reality is, pretty much most universities, unless you're a marriage and family program, universities teach more of an adult model, which is individual therapy. So that's the adult model and a lot of, a lot of you who are in the child and adolescent mental health space, you. You are probably your graduate program, unless you are fortunate enough to go to some of the programs where they do have play therapy. I would say the vast majority of people maybe have a play therapy class if they're lucky, or like my program had, uh, a class on basically diagnosis for children. That was it. Using the DSM three, I think it was the DSM three TR. That's how far back mine goes. And, and so that's, I, I get it. And to be honest, I actually do use that model. I will meet with children, I will do the individual therapy because I wanna see what's going on. I wanna create that safe space for them. But the thing is. What happens then if we're only using parent updates, then it's gonna keep us from seeing some of those crucial patterns that are going on for your client and their parents and family members that. That might be the missing piece to the puzzle, to really understanding what is going on, that your clients seem stalled. Um, and that is really your ability to observe firsthand those interaction patterns instead of relying on secondhand information. That's exactly what we're doing. We're getting secondhand information from parents and, and they might be pretty accurate. They might not be pretty accurate, and they might be somewhere in between. The reality is though, who of us fully get a neutral perspective of things we, we all have. The lens through which we make sense of and understand, and that that's rooted in all of our implicit memories and the meaning we make of experiences way back from birth. Right? So none and, and nobody escapes life without having some challenges, including us as therapists. And so. We're, so what we're relying on parents who most likely have not been trained in play therapy or mental health, maybe they have, maybe you're working with parents who are therapists and who of us fully understand and can accurately assess what's going on within and between. People and relationships, including family relationships and those parent-child relationships. And so I've seen this so many times over the last, I would say like almost 35 years, I've seen this, especially in the beginning. In the beginning.'cause I used the traditional model 'cause that's what I was taught and that's what I learned when I was learning plea therapy. Um. And that's the model pretty much that we use in mental health. So I can't tell you how many times we would, we would be in sessions. I would be meeting with the child, doing individual play therapy sessions. Parents would do their parent only sessions with me and then talk about their child and dysregulating at home. This happened so many times. Uh, I mean, raise your hand, virtual hand if you can relate to this, where you, your client is frequently dysregulated. Having those, um, outburst like anger outbursts, yelling, throwing things, telling their parent, their parent is a terrible parent, or saying they're gonna jump down the stairs or jump off the roof, or some other thing that. Um, terrifies parents when they're little, little tiny child says this to them and then their, their parents are terrified that their child is gonna go up, grow up, and have a terrible, horrible life of crime or some other horrible situation because they're worried. They're worried about their. If they're worried about their child, but I can't. So how many of you have had these experiences where you give strategies to parents, but then they, they tell you nothing's working? And so what I learned to do was start using, I began in including parent, just at the, in the really, really beginning, well actually then that's, that's not true. I've always had a family system, so I'll bring the whole family in there sometimes. But, uh, sometimes when I start just with the parent and the child, it becomes instantly clear that the parent is overwhelmed and hesitant and not sure what to do. And if you're thinking about this from an attachment standpoint. Then you, then you understand that children need their parents to co-regulate. If we use a circle of security term, we would say parents need to be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind. And when I would get parents in there, I would see for myself. Where this disconnect is and where things are stalling because parent isn't able to be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind because they don't know how and they need help. And so in the sessions that we can do that, or other times when I've had, um, I've had, I've worked with the kids individually and they have a issue with one. Parent and the parent doesn't seem to understand or they do, but they try things and it doesn't seem to work. That's what's getting reported to you, and so maybe just to have the whole family in there. I can remember a few times where I've had like one parent, maybe that one parent and the child, and maybe a sibling in there. That gave me the opportunity to see where things were getting stalled, as well as it gave me the opportunity to see some of the strengths of that parent and where the parent is kind of trying, but they're missing, they're not able to connect. And if I didn't have them in the session together, I would not have that ability. To see that for myself, using my skill and knowledge to assess and then kind of figure out what's going on and where are they missing, then that would help me figure out what needs to happen. So we have Hey Sharon Ann. So, uh, Sharon, Anne and I have connected a few times on LinkedIn. So Sharon Ann says, yes. So relatable. I'm a trauma coach training to be a future LCSW. Woo-hoo. And that was one of my sessions. Um, one day it was hard, but I made it through the session. Okay. Um, you know, what's Sharon Ann? You, you may be interested. I'm gonna talk about, um. I know you're probably in grad school, so funds are limited, so if you can't, don't worry about it. But for those of you who also who are interested, that kind of gave me a a reminder. Um, I do have a training coming up on attachment focused family play therapy that's gonna teach you how to use a model when you get. Family members together. Um, so you may be interested. Stay tuned at the end. I'm gonna talk a little bit more about that plus some other trainings I have coming up, but yeah, that's so true. We get in there and these things happen and then we're like, ah, I don't know what to do. Um, and, and it happens over and over. Like, I, I can't even tell you how many times I have used. Um, I have had, so for high conflict families, right, where there are siblings and the siblings are going between the two homes and parents don't like each other, they're really mad at each other, and for the children can be really hard. One, I think it's hard for kids to go back and forth between the homes anyway. If parents are doing a really good job of co-parenting together, then it kind of, it reduces some of that, uh, distress for the kids when they don't get along well and it's, uh, those handoffs can be pretty stressful or being in the two homes can be stressful. Sibling relationships can be a really, um. I would say it's a underutilized way of helping children in these types of situations. And I, I say that with some caveats, which I'll talk a little bit about, but, so here's an example. Like there are times when I, I just meet with the siblings only, and then it gives me the ability to see the sibling dynamics. And what are the strengths and, and are they able to use each other for support? Where might they be struggling to do that? And then in these sibling only sessions, we can work on build, strengthening those relationships. So the kids who are going, those are the ones going back and forth between the two homes. They can use each other for support and the research supports. The, um, benefits of sibling relationships to mitigate stressful si situations for children within their family systems. There was a, and I did a, I did a livestream episode, so it's recorded. So I did a previous episode about this, um, article that I'm gonna reference, but I'm just gonna give a. A summary here, so this research was done by Amichi and colleagues, and it was published in 2022. The title was Maternal Stress, child Behavior, and the Promotive, that role of older siblings. It was published in the BMC Public Health Journal, so I think it's public domain, if you wanna research that one and find the article yourself, that showed older siblings can provide a buffering effect for siblings during times of maternal stress. And so the caveat I would say is we don't wanna parenty older children. We don't wanna parenty any of the children and. Sibling relationships are really important relationships, and I would cite evidence by saying, how many of you on, uh, Facebook or Instagram, when it's, when it's, uh, sibling day or sister day or sibling and or brother day, you post pictures of. Your relationship with your siblings and all the awesome things. Some of, uh, some of you like myself don't have those. That was a really hard thing. And so sometimes those might just kind of remind us, oh, it's nice. Other people had that, but sure, wish I had that myself. But here's the thing, we can help the next generation have that. We can help our clients have that, so that they can someday post pictures on Instagram or, uh, or um, Facebook about their awesome sibling relationships. And the thing is, I've seen that work, especially in these high conflict family situations and siblings being a support for each other. So I, I give those example as a way of, of. Thinking about things differently and what would that actually look like in play therapy? Because currently we, when we prioritize secondhand information over direct observation. Sometimes I think this is a little ouchy, so I, I don't mean it to be ouchy. I just wanna challenge thinking a little bit. I don't think this is always the case, but I do think sometimes we choose. Convenience because it's easier. And having more than one person in the play therapy session makes us uncomfortable. And we, um, we get overwhelmed and we think about, oh, what do I do if there's different developmental stages in there? What do I do if somebody has a temper tantrum in there? What do I do if parents say something that. Maybe it's not the most useful, so it's easier. And we are more comfortable not doing the family play therapy sessions. And so I think sometimes it's'cause we haven't been trained and we don't know, and we give it a try and it doesn't work. Um, so we're trying and we're trying to be outside of our comfort zone. But I think sometimes we just choose convenience over effectiveness, and it's kind of like trying to fix a car. Like, I always think about the car repair people. When I have to explain what's going on to my car, I'm talking to a mechanic. I don't know car things, I do not know car things. I always wish my husband would go because at least he kind of knows car things. But it's, it's kind of like going to the car repair place, explaining to you. The the person at the desk, what the problem is, and you're trying to explain the noises and the weird things that your car is doing versus having the mechanic take your car out for a drive or run their own diagnostics that they can see for themselves what's going on using their expertise and knowledge. So one of the things that I, I wanted to kind of talk about or maybe challenge a little bit is conceptualizing plea therapy differently. And, and that would be when you're bringing parents, parents and siblings into the play therapy sessions with your client. So here's the thing, here's another little caveat to. I wanna make sure I'm real clear about this. Your client is still your client. The child is still your client. You're bringing parents in as a way to support the progress for your client. You are bringing siblings in as a way to support progress for your client. You're not doing individual therapy for parents. What you're doing is you're helping parents develop the skills or get the support that they need in order to get a deeper level of healing for their child. And that might mean you have to work with parents about their, their own trauma triggers and how that might show up in the sessions. In a circle of security, they would call it shark music. So you're helping parents recognize their shark music. In my attachment and focus family play therapy model, I talk about parents skills needed. So I, I talk about family space, which is what parents need structure, but they need flexibility. Parents need to be present and attuned. Fully present and attuned in the moment because if they don't, they'll miss the cues that their children are trying to to show. So we use curiosity. We, we use the therapeutic powers of play, so we're helping parents access the therapeutic powers of play as a play therapist and we're, we want to help parents. Be accepting and empa empathic. So accepting doesn't mean that we have to, everything is permissible. It doesn't mean that at all. We still need structure and structure as boundaries. So, but we can have empathy and we can have acceptance that the child is doing the best that they can. Like DBT, your clients are doing the best that they can at any moment in time. And the other dialectic of that is, and they can do better, right? So structure and acceptance is we need structure, we, we need it to be flexible and we need to be. Accepting that they're doing the best they can. We're accepting of parents. They're doing the best that they can and they can do better. And part of that is them trusting us that we're not judging them and that we wanna provide support so we can help them. With the support that they need to make the changes. That's why they're coming, right? They're coming because they need our help. And so when you bring parents into those play therapy sessions, you can witness in real time, what are those attachment patterns that are going on? What are those interaction patterns? Where are the strengths? Where are they missing? Things kind of missing. The mark or like two ships passing and not connecting, right? You're looking at how the child responds to the parent. How the parent re re, uh, responds to the child. So from an attachment standpoint, we're looking at the serve and return within those relationships. We're looking at serve and return and sibling relationships, if we can kind of use that attachment term within a family systems. Lens and when they're in the sessions, you are helping them to apply those skills that you've taught them. You are helping them to apply those skills in the sessions, and then that's going to also be able to translate to home because parents are the therapeutic agents of change for their children. Kids come to you once a week, maybe for 45 minutes to an hour. How many hours are they not with you? And of those gazillion hours, who are they with? They're with their family. So if we're thinking about maximizing impact, then. Bringing, bringing the family, at least parents or maybe just siblings into the sessions, allows you to help them in real time, make those shifts so that they can continue those shifts outside of your therapy office. And I, I like using an attachment and neuroscience lens. And so here's the thing, when you're. When you're using, when you're integrating parents into the play therapy session, or maybe even the whole family or maybe just siblings, you wanna make sure you're not doing individual therapy plus some other people in there. When you're using a family systems or an attachment approach, it's, it's a fundamental shift in your way of being. The play therapy sessions because your role changes, parents' role changes, client's role changes. So you wanna make sure that you are using, uh, a family play therapy model. So some of the seminal and historical play therapy models do. Conceptualize the role of parents like Adlerian play therapy. They, they conceptualize, what is that gonna look like from an Adlerian play therapy lens when you integrate family in there? Gestalt Play Therapy, the same thing. They, what is, you'll look at it using a gestalt play therapy model because they, they will look at the child within the context and there you can do family play therapy. With Gestalt, I thera play. It's just gonna be parent and child when you're adding parents in there. Um, but it's a model, right? You're using a specific model. I like using a model that I created 'cause I need a little more flexibility. Um. And I, I wanted to integrate like a systems lens with neuroscience, with attachment theory. So it's kind of a blending of the three things that are pretty heavily rooted in neuroscience and attachment theory. And so that's, that's my attachment focused family play therapy model, which I'm gonna talk a little bit about. I have a training coming up with that. So that is it for today. Let me do a quick recap. Today's topic is why parent updates alone can't fix stalled play therapy. The traditional approach for play therapy is using individual play therapy sessions and then those kind of quick check-ins at the end, or maybe once a month, parent only consultation sessions. Um, and this might be the reason that progress is getting stalled is because even those monthly parent only sessions. You're still getting secondhand information. And so family play therapy sessions allow the ability in real time to see what's going on, what are, what are causing some of those miscues, what are, um, maybe ways the serve and return process isn't working so well. Um. And gives you the ability in real time to teach new skills that they can practice in the session with your support. And then they apply those outside of the sessions in real time in their everyday life. And now parent can be a, depending on who's in the. Session.'cause I talked a lot about different scenarios where you can use family plate therapy, but that gives the ability for those things to be applied with family members in real time outside of your sessions because you are not going to be in their life forever. You are a brief period of time in their life. Hopefully, ideally parents and fam and siblings are gonna be there throughout their life, and so to me, when I look at it that way, family play therapy has the ability to systemically. Create change that can be passed on to the next generation. So that, and the key is though, the key is that you want to use a family play therapy model that is grounded in theory that will show you how to apply. The theory in each stage of the change process, what is your role? What is parents' role? What kind of things are you gonna do in the beginning, middle and end stages of play therapy. And so I like using an attachment and neuroscience lens. That's my theoretical framework. And I, I use attachment focused family play therapy. The model that I created. Um, to help me, um, through each stage of the change process, what's my role? What's parents' role, what are the kids' role, what are we doing in the sessions? When are we doing what? In sessions, depending on what stage of the change process that you're in. So. That is it for today. If you are interested in my attachment focused family play therapy model, I do have a training coming up and, um, on November 8th, so it's Saturday, November 8th, it's uh, full day training. You can either join virtually or you can attend in person. Where in person is gonna be in St. George, Utah. So just so you know, St. George, Utah in the fall is so beautiful. So if you've ever had a desire to kind of see St. George, Utah, or maybe you live in Utah or. Nevada or Arizona or Colorado, all the ones kind of surrounding. Um, and you'd like to take a trip there. We do have the in-person version if you need the contact hours for play therapy. We also have the virtual option, so if you're interested, you're gonna wanna hop over to my website at RH play therapy training.com. That's renewing hearts play therapy training.com. Go on to the training page, and then you'll see the attachment focus, family play therapy training. You wanna make sure you register for either the virtual or the in-person, depending on which one you want to attend. Registration for that is gonna be closing pretty soon. It's gonna be closing on November 6th, so you'll wanna make sure to register before then. If you're interested. Also, I have another, uh, training coming up. It's a two day in-person only. It's really small. It's using a neuroscience and attachment lens with San Tray. In play therapy, we do tons of San tray making tons of processing san trays. I kind of think of it as like a little retreat like experience'cause it's very, very limited. In size.'cause I really think it's important when you're learning San Tray and some of the, uh, using. Sand tray with your clients. It's important for you to get your hands in the sand and really understand how powerful it can be and how it accesses those implicit experiences that you did not even sometimes even remember. So if you're interested in that one, I have some that training coming up. I have some openings and play Therapy Academy. I have two openings. So if you're interested in getting, um, a lot of support to use play therapy, maybe you're pursuing your RPT credential, the registered play therapy credential, then Play Therapy Academy can help you to do that. It's very small. I only have openings when people are no longer in Play Therapy Academy. So. I don't have openings often, but they, they do come up periodically and now I have openings. So if you're interested in Play Therapy Academy, then definitely hop over to my website at rh play therapy training.com. Go on the consultation page, look for Play Therapy Academy. Read a little bit about it. If you're interested, schedule a video call with me. Schedule a 30 minute. Video call. We'll talk about what's going on with you and whether or not play Therapy Academy is a good fit for you. Maybe you don't need Play Therapy Academy, but you really want some help in a community of support. Then click on the wait list. For Play therapy Elevation, circle that one. I'm gonna be opening that one up for enrollment in January. We're making some big changes right now to make it even better, so. If you're interested in attachment focused family play therapy, pop over to my website, sign up, register soon for the virtual or in-person. If you're interested in other things that I'm doing or resources, pop over to my website and I will see you next week. Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy. I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information. Remember. Play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth. Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work in relationships. If you have any questions or topics, suggestions for future episode. I'd love to hear from you. Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources. Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy. Until next time, keep playing, learning and growing.