Jungian Play Therapy 101: Symbols, Archetypes & Clinical Ideas

What is Jungian Analytic Play Therapy, and how does it actually work in the playroom? 

In this podcast, we dive deep into the symbolic world of Jungian theory with guest Jared Andes, LCSW, RPT-S. 

We explore how Jungian Analytical Play Therapy uses archetypes and other concepts to facilitate healing, and we compare this model to other popular play therapy approaches.

Join us for an insightful conversation as we explore the transformative power of Jungian Play Therapy! 

Whether you are a seasoned practitioner or new to this model, this episode will provide you with practical ideas.

In this free weekly podcast episode, we’ll cover:

• What is Jungian Play Therapy? An introduction to the core concepts.
• Practical Ideas for the Playroom: Symbolic play and therapeutic techniques you can use.
• Comparative Analysis: How Jungian Play Therapy differs from—and where it aligns with—other popular models.
• Live Q&A: Get your questions answered by Jared!

Connect with Jared Andes:

Website: www.fullspectrumcounseling.org

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61584175263892

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jared_andes_therapy

Join my free Facebook Community Play and Expressive Arts Therapy Playground.

Check out my free resources for mental health professionals working with children, adolescents, and families who want to integrate play therapy and expressive arts into their clinical work.

I work with individuals and agencies to develop successful strategies and meet the treatment needs of your child and adolescent clients and their families using play therapy & expressive arts.

Contact me to schedule a free 30-minute video call if you're ready to level up your skills

Transcript

Cathi Spooner: 0:02

Welcome to Next Level Play Therapy, a weekly podcast dedicated to supporting the next generation of child and adolescent therapists to provide exceptional play therapy services. We'll explore all things play therapy to elevate your work with children and adolescents using the therapeutic powers of play. I'll discuss practical tips and ideas so you can provide a transformative experience for your young clients and make a real difference in their lives. So get ready to take your play therapy skills to the next level and make a lasting impact in the lives of children, adolescents, and families. All right. Welcome, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of Next Level Play Therapy, and I am super excited this week. We are gonna be talking all things psycho- uh, Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy with Jared Andes. He is a licensed clinical social worker and a registered play therapy supervisor. One of the reasons that I thought this would be an awesome topic is because, like Jared and I were talking a little bit before I hit the go live button, which is a lot… Like nowadays, it seems like there's only a couple of options for trainings. If you're a play therapist and you're wanting to learn play therapy and learn a theoretical model There's, there's usually only a couple of trainings available these days, which is good. They're good trainings, and if you don't really resonate with them, it doesn't seem like there's another option available. And so today we're gonna talk about Jungian psychoanalytic ther- uh, play therapy, and then we'll talk a little bit at the end because the Utah Association for Play Therapy has a training coming up on s- um, Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy. I'm gonna… That's just a mouthful to say. Jungian psychoanalytic therapy. All righty. So we're gonna talk about what Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy is, what are the core components of psychoanalytic, uh, Jungian psychoanalytic therapy, and just all things, um, Jungian play therapy. So Jared is a play therapist, a supervisor, a trainer, and he also specializes in Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy, selective mutism. I've seen some of your trainings that you're doing other places about selective mutism as well, trauma and neurodivergence. He's currently serving as the vice president for the Utah Association for Play Therapy branch, and is the clinical director for the APT Play Therapy magazine. So welcome, Jared. I don't know if you wanna tell people a little bit more about what you're up to these days and what you're doing, and then we can talk about what's going on. Oh, before you do that, sorry. I forgot. I always forget this part. Um, for those of you watching live, if you have questions about the topic, please feel free to post those in the comments. If you're watching the replay, please feel free to post in the comments and ask your questions. I'm sure we can make sure that Jared responds to those, or I can get an answer for you. Um, and for those of you listening on the podcast, I'm also gonna give you some ways to connect with Jared if you have questions or the Association for Play Therapy, Utah Association for Play Therapy. You can reach out to them or message me. Um, but feel free to join the conversation, and if you know somebody that might be interested in this topic, please feel free to share the information across your social media platforms and let your friends and colleagues know about the training coming up. All righty. There, I got my pitch in.

Jared Andes: 4:25

Well, thanks for the pitch.

Cathi Spooner: 4:26

You're welcome.

Jared Andes: 4:26

Um, so a little bit more about me. I, um, I'm gonna start with this. I'm the father of two. Um- Oh … I've got two kids. Last time I joined you on your, um, your live stream, uh- Okay… we were getting ready for my younger son's graduation, so that was an exciting day for us. Um- Yeah. Awesome … and outside of that, I am a private practice, uh, in- I have an office in Salt Lake and one in Sandy. Um, I'm- I am really excited about, uh, sharing things like selective mutism and Jungian analytical play therapy, um, because the, the Jungian play therapy community is pretty small. We're not like the, uh, you know, the Adlerians or Child Centered. It's a, it's a pretty small community. Um, so I'm excited to bring that out to people and to help, um, that community grow. I love when I run into people and they're like, "Oh, I've been doing this for a while, but I haven't really met anyone, uh, anyone else who's doing this." It's, it's really

Cathi Spooner: 5:15

exciting. Oh, that's

Jared Andes: 5:16

exciting. Yeah. Um, and then, uh, yeah, the magazine keeps us pretty busy. A lot of, uh- Nice … lots of great articles coming in. And I- anyone who's listening, if you have an idea, um, I definitely encourage you to, you know, submit your manuscript. If you have questions, feel free to reach out. Um, we're always happy to help you.

Cathi Spooner: 5:34

Awesome. Awesome. All right. So a little bit of full disclosure. My husband just went off to work, which means he opened the door to my office to let my dog in. So if you hear… Ope, she's leaving now. If you… Sometimes she rolls around in the back and moans, so if, if you hear any weird noises in the back, I promise I'm not doing anything untoward back there. It's just my dog, Luna, 'cause she does- she doesn't like to- be in the house by herself, so she comes and hangs out with me during my livestreams.

Jared Andes: 6:12

All

Cathi Spooner: 6:12

right. And sometimes you can see her little tail walking back and forth in the background if you're watching the video. I was watching one of my videos one ti- this is a couple years ago, and I could see her… Oh, she's back. You could- I could see her little tail, little black and white tail in the background. Yep, she's over there laying down. All right. So, so if you hear weird noises, it's Luna. Now

Jared Andes: 6:36

we know.

Cathi Spooner: 6:37

Yeah. So, um, Jared, tell us a little bit about what is Jungian play therapy?

Jared Andes: 6:46

So I'm gonna try not to do a really long history lesson, but we do have to go back a little bit to- Yeah Carl Jung. Um, so, uh, Carl Jung was a collaborator with Freud, uh, but they separated on some key ideas and issues. And, um, Jung started, started his own, um, psychology school, and, um, Jungian play therapy descended from his theory. Um, and it was, um, modified for play therapy by John Allen and then, um, continued, uh, by people like JP Lilly, who was my first play therapy supervisor, and then Eric Green, uh, both of who unfortunately passed away.

Cathi Spooner: 7:21

Right.

Jared Andes: 7:22

Um, and continues to be something that, um, evolves and grows. Um, but like I said, it is a small community right now.

Cathi Spooner: 7:29

Yeah. You know what's interesting? I think John Allen, isn't he in Canada?

Jared Andes: 7:34

He is.

Cathi Spooner: 7:35

I remember, like this must have been a bazillion years ago. I don't remember if it was a national APT conference or a Virginia Association for Play Therapy conference, but he came and did a, excuse me, did a training, and he talked about his serial drawing.

Jared Andes: 7:56

Mm-hmm.

Cathi Spooner: 7:56

He, and he has a book, Inscapes of the Children, about that model that he developed, and I, I still use that one to this day.

Jared Andes: 8:05

Mm.

Cathi Spooner: 8:06

So yeah, it's a really good b- it's an oldie. I don't even know- Yeah … if it's in print anymore.

Jared Andes: 8:09

Actually, they just released a new pr- uh, edition, so 2025 I think is when that will come out. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's back in publication.

Cathi Spooner: 8:16

Oh, nice. Yeah. It's a… I, I use it all the time. Um, yeah. So that's-

Jared Andes: 8:23

Inscapes, uh, sorry, Inscapes of the Child's World is the, the name of that one. It's a, it is a great book.

Cathi Spooner: 8:28

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Awesome. And g- okay, so, uh, this is my little nerdy part. Warning, I feel like I should warn people. Warning, you have entered the nerdy zone. Um, so, um, when I think of Jungian psychoanalytic therapy theory and expressive art, does, does the work that Dora Koff did with sand play play over into some of the Jungian psychoanalytic play therapy-

Jared Andes: 9:02

Yeah. Actually, I just

Cathi Spooner: 9:03

happen-… Jared Andes: theory?… just happen to have her book right here, actually. Oh. I'm not even kidding. Um- Oh, cool … it's, uh, just right there. But, um, so yeah, it, they kind of descended in two different, um- Tracks… Jared Andes: lineages. Yeah, tracks. Yeah.

Jared Andes: 9:17

Um, but they do have a lot of, um, bleed over, right? Like, um, Jungian play therapy, Jungian analytical play therapy, uh, uses sand tray, um, r- all of the time, right? That's a very common thing. Um- Yeah … and, and they both are descending from Carl Jung's ideas. So things like all of us are wired for individuation, which is becoming, um, our whole self. We're wired for wholeness, and so we can trust the, the individual psyche, in this case the child's psyche, um, to help direct therapy where it needs to go. Um, things like, uh, understanding archetypes and the energy that is, um, transmitted in a session. Things like, uh, transference and counter-transference and how important that is. It's not just, oh, like, oh, you know, you're a, you're a bad therapist. You have these counter-transference feelings. It's actually information. It's data for the therapist. Um, all of those things come from that same source. So yeah, there's a lot of bleed over between the two.

Cathi Spooner: 10:08

Yeah. And I, y- I, like I mentioned to you previously, I went c- oh, this is probably- Nine years ago when JP Lilly did the Jungian play therapy training for the Utah Association for Play Therapy, and there, there seemed to be that s- some I found some similarities with child-centered play therapy. But I find that this part, what I'm about to say, is kind of Similar across all the play therapy models and that idea. But I think in what I noticed in Jungian play therapy is that, uh, like sometimes the child leads and sometimes the therapist leads.

Jared Andes: 10:56

So- So that idea that- … there's a ton of similarities Yeah.

Cathi Spooner: 11:01

Uh, what

Jared Andes: 11:01

was that? Um, JP would always say that, you know, the people who really… So I'll introduce a new topic that I was gonna talk about later, but I'll introduce this now. Um, there's this concept in Jungian analytical play therapy called temenos. Um, and temenos means, like, the, the sacred district. It's the area, literally it was the area around the temple that set it apart from the secular. Um, and Jung said that the therapy space needed to be set apart and sacred. Um, and, and in Jungian analytical play therapy we recognize it's not just the playroom that needs to be separate and sacred, it's also the relationship that holds that temenos. So we are, as, as the play therapist, we are as much a part of that as the space that we're in. Um, and JP would always say that, you know who gets temenos, uh, best out of anybody? The child-centered people. They really get it right. Um, so yeah, there's, uh, I think there's a lot of similarities, and then there are some big divergences. For example, um, you know, if a child asks a question, I, I feel very free to answer the question.

Cathi Spooner: 12:01

You can answer the question.

Jared Andes: 12:03

Right. Yeah. You know, it does depend. Like, sometimes I'll reflect it back to the child and say, "Oh, you're wondering this thing." Or, you know, I might even use the, the very famous child, uh, centered line like, "Oh yeah, it sure seems like that to you." Something like that. Um, but if the relationship calls for it I'll, I'll say,"Yeah, I'm, I'm afraid of that thing," or, "That is a really cool thing that you built. I do like that."

Cathi Spooner: 12:23

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Th- so that ide- I think that idea of the relationship, um, and how important that is kind of anchor and set play therapy apart from other play therapy models is a, it's really important. And I'm, I'm curious from a Jungian standpoint, a Jungian play therapy standpoint, like how is, how does the play therapist, what is, I guess, their way of being so to speak- Mm … for lack of a better way of saying it, in the playroom? Because I, I feel like a lot of… I, like I'll tell people you need to learn a play therapy model. Like, you have to be grounded in something. Learn one, learn how to apply it through every stage. Like, learn how to do it. You can always add later.

Jared Andes: 13:19

Yeah.

Cathi Spooner: 13:20

But you need to at least learn a play therapy model, 'cause that's your framework. But the bottom line is while you're learning The model, lean into relationship, because if you don't have relationship, then you're not gonna get anywhere anyway. So,

Jared Andes: 13:37

and I'm- I don't know any model of play therapy that says we can deprioritize the relationship and focus on the technique. I don't know any type that does that, and certainly not Jungian analytical play therapy. Yeah. Very, very much focused on the relationship. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring in a couple of people, um, to talk about what you just asked. Okay. So I'll start with John Allen. He's got this great quote that I think about frequently. Um, he said, um, "Carl Jung viewed therapy as an existential exchange." And, um, then John Allen went to say, or went on to say, um, "If the therapy's any good, both parties are changed." So the therapist experiences a change, and so does the client. It's not a one-way, a, um, change, right? That both people are going to be changed by this. Um, that's why countertransference and transference is so important, um, because we are going to experience something.

Cathi Spooner: 14:26

I love that.

Jared Andes: 14:27

I think it's a beautiful

Cathi Spooner: 14:28

quote. So true, right? Because if you bring your authentic self therapeutically, right, in a professional way, but if you bring your therapeutic self into, and you enter into authentic relationship, then of course it's gonna- impact you. Yeah. That's all- I think

Jared Andes: 14:49

many

Cathi Spooner: 14:50

therapists would say- I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be pondering that the rest of the day.

Jared Andes: 14:53

I think many therapists, especially people who've practiced, you know, for a certain length of time, would say they carry clients with them.

Cathi Spooner: 15:00

Yes. I mean, I have some clients, I've been doing this co- I'm rounding the, rounding the corner close to 35 years. There are still some clients that I think about. There's, like, a handful of them I think about to this day. Somehow they found me on social media, like years and years later. Wow. And they'll just like my posts. Um, which I think is very sweet because I, I know what a dark place they were in at the time- Yeah and what a, kind of a privilege it was to walk with them through that process. So it's very cool. Yeah. You can see my dog Luna's head popping up between my Yeah. In and out. Yeah. If you're watching on the video. Yeah. I l- I love that so much. And you know, I think about what you s- I tell people too, countertransference, don't be afraid of it, uh,'cause it isn't a bad thing.

Jared Andes: 16:01

Right.

Cathi Spooner: 16:01

It's, it just gives information. I remember years a- this is when I was, like, first getting started back a gazillion years ago, and I was asking my supervisor at the time, "What do I do when countertran…" Like, like, "What do I do with my countertransference?" You know, like super nervous. We're all out of grad school. We've been told We're not supposed to have this empathy … about our bias. You know, watch your bias. Basically, don't be a butthead-

Jared Andes: 16:31

Mm-hmm… Cathi Spooner: um, And so we're, like, super nervous about everything and wanting to do a good job and do right by our clients. I was so nervous about countertransference. And I remember my supervisor said, um, "Well, just use it." And I, and I was like, "What are you talking about?" And she's like, "Well, let's say you feel like there's anger coming, and you feel yourself getting irritated," 'cause the, this was a adult client I was getting, I was getting irritated with, uh, in the session and trying, trying to manage that internally. Um, and she said, "Well, if that comes up, just ask them,'Do you ever feel like there are times when people get mad at you or irritated with you, and you don't understand why?'" And it was like, yeah. Am I… And I was like s- I was, I was sold from then on that countertransference- Yeah … is the magic secret sauce to figuring things out. Yeah. From a, from a s- analytic, a psychoanalytic, a union analytic play therapy standpoint, how, how do you guys use that as a play therapist? So, um, I hope that this is true of all types of play therapy, but it is certainly true in Jungian analytical play therapy. The Jungian play therapist is always in consultation, always working on their own interiority. Our- the interior of the therapist is so important, right? So we have to do that work to get to know where, you know, where is my stuff coming up and where is this coming from the client. Um, you know, I have a, have a bad day, I'm tired and whatever, I can get irritated really easily. So if it's just me being irritated, like, you know, in your example, and it's not something that this client is doing, then I need to, you know, realize like, hey, this is what's happening for me. I need to work on that. But if I can go through that process and say, actually, I have… like, my level of irritation is pretty low, something else is happening in this room, then I sit with that. There's-- So the analytic stance is something that's really important. We'll talk about that more, um, you know, for anyone who's interested, we'll talk about that, um, in the six-hour training here in Utah. But, um, I'll say one thing that's, I think, really important on this, and that is to have a soft hypothesis. So anytime we're approaching it, we don't say, "Aha, it's this. I've got the answer. It's the one answer." We hold this, the hypothesis very carefully, really lightly, because it might be right and it might not be right. We sometimes actually will even present that in play therapy. Like, "Oh, okay. So, um, you know, that guy looks really angry," or, "Wow, she is so powerful." A, a soft hypothesis stated like that. Mm-hmm. And the client will sometimes say, "No, he's not scary. He's actually scared." And then we're, "Oh, okay. Thanks for telling me." And then you just, you sit with that, you hold it. Um, so the analytical stance is to hold these soft hypotheses and, and just hold them. Um, and if, you know, if you're in the play therapy session, you're doing Jungian analytical play therapy, and you're like,"Ooh, I'm not sure what to do," I, I agree with you fully. You go back to the relationship. And then also JP identified three key roles for a play therapist. Um, so the, the first one is witness. That one I, I think we can do pretty easily. I, I can sit here, I can witness this with you, and I can even reflect back to you that I'm witnessing it. I think that's really important. Um, and then the next one is interpreter. So when we interpret, it does sometimes happen in the room, but we don't always offer it in the room. And usually it happens once we've left the play therapy room. As we're reflecting on the session, writing our note, thinking about the child, that's when we're really starting to work on the interpretation. Okay, so it might be this thing, it might be that thing. But it does sometimes happen within the playroom as well. And then the last one is container, which is, um, you know, crucial. You can't have temenos, like I was talking about earlier, without container. So there must be containment of strong emotions. There must be boundaries around the behavior, um, otherwise no one can feel safe.

Cathi Spooner: 20:25

I love that. You know what's so interesting when you were talking about that, I was kind of thinking about the parallel, 'cause I know you, um, you s- you said you work with trauma as well, and how important these are to create a sense of safety for clients who have experienced trauma, but selective mutism as well. They're n- Yeah … they're not gonna do anything until they feel safe. Mm-hmm. They'll just stay frozen in the playroom until, until that happens. And so that, that whole idea of witness and feeling seen, heard, held, and understood Also within structure and containment because that's where the, the safety is with those boundaries. Mm-hmm. And I'm… I always think of, um, the, uh, circle of security from an attachment standpoint. Parents have to be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind. I think in the playroom that their play therapist needs to be bigger, stronger, wiser, and kind, and that's kind of what I'm, I'm hearing you talk about in terms of those, the three roles-

Jared Andes: 21:39

Yeah

Cathi Spooner: 21:39

of a play therapist.

Jared Andes: 21:41

Yep, and I, I'm gonna, you know, bringing in what you just said, um, that so systems was part of, um, Jung's model from nearly the beginning. He would look at where is this person coming from, not just who is this person showing up. Um, and so looking at the family, like you just mentioned, helping the parents know, hey, like, this is what the child's doing in therapy. Here is how I can help support them. Here's how we can coordinate these things together. Mm-hmm. And it's a huge part of play therapy.

Cathi Spooner: 22:07

Do you guy… From a, um, Jungian analytic play therapy, d- does the parent ever come into the playroom or is it only individual?

Jared Andes: 22:19

Um, so, uh, two things I would say it depends on. One, um, the therapist. I know some therapists who w- would almost never have a parent in the play therapy room. JP very, very rarely had, um, parents in his play therapy room.

Cathi Spooner: 22:32

Mm-hmm.

Jared Andes: 22:32

I work with kids with selective mutism, and not bringing the parent into the play therapy room does not work very well. Yeah. They usually start off in the, in the room with me. And then we work on having them, you know, work themselves back out of the room as we go on. Um, so it would depend on the therapist, and then also depends on the, the parent and the child and, you know, what they're looking for.

Cathi Spooner: 22:53

Oh, interesting. Okay. If you, if you had the parent in the room, how do you, um, set them up to join the room or do you just bring… I, I'm a firm believer, 'cause I, I have people tell me this all the time, especially in Play Therapy Academy where we, we do a lot of skill building. Um, they'll, they'll say they'll bring the parent in the room and then it doesn't go very well. And then I'll say, "Well, did you talk to them about, like, why did you bring them in?" And they're like, "Oh, because, you know, the client asked." And like, well, you, you can say no. Um, because it, it's not gonna go very, very well. So I'm curious from a Jungian, um, analytic play therapy h- if, if you are gonna bring the parent in, is there a way that you kind of prepare them for it?

Jared Andes: 23:48

So, um, I, I think we prepare them for it with, uh, y- before they even show up to the office for the very first time. With those conversations we have where, "Hey, play therapy looks a little bit different from therapy you may have experienced or seen on TV," depending on what the, you know, the parent's, um, experience with therapy is. Your child's probably gonna really wanna come here, and they're gonna come out of the room, and they'll be like, "That was so fun." And you're maybe even gonna wonder what was happening in that room. Was that therapy? What's going on in there? Right. Um, and so I like to, I have those conversations before the child ever shows up. And- Oh,

Cathi Spooner: 24:18

I love that… Jared Andes: then, you know, I'm thinking about bringing the parent in or when it's time to bring the parent in, I have conversations about here's my role in the play therapy room as the therapist. Here's what I- you're gonna see from me. Um, and you're gonna hear me saying things that are gonna sound maybe just a little bit different from what you're expecting, um, a therapist to say, uh- Mm-hmm … because the playroom is a different place. Here is what I'm hoping from you, from your role in the room as a play ther- or as a parent. What would you like your role to be? And kind of collaborate on that. And then I let them know,"Hey, your child is probably having some expectations from you as well. So what do you think those might be?" So a kind of exchange of what are the expectations, what are the roles, and then just know it's gonna look different. It's not going to be what you think therapy looks like unless you're really well-versed in therapy. That's awesome. I love that. That's a great way to explain it also, I think. So if you're doing, um, I know people like to kinda get an idea from a play therapy standpoint what, what might a Jungian analytic play therapy session look like. So if you're, if you're… Are there times when you sometimes lead, um, and do a certain activity, or is it, are you just kind of following and leading in the session? Do you ever do, like, a directive activity? How does that work?

Jared Andes: 25:41

So, um, I, I, I would actually again refer people back to Inscapes of the Child's World, uh, by John Allen, um, because he's got some great information on this as well. The level of directiveness or non-directiveness, um, will depend on the therapist and their, their viewpoint. Mm. Um, for me, it has a lot to do with the client's age and developmental level. Um- Yes … I work a lot with neurodivergent people, and that is, you know, that's a whole different thing. Um, so it depends a lot on the specific person that I'm in the room with. Okay. And I trust the relationship a lot. Um, so, um, and, and sometimes I'm like, "Okay. You know what? I think this directive activity might be really helpful for this person," and I, I offer it, and it gets shut down really quickly. Or we try it- … and the person's like, "Well, that was lame." And I'm like- … "Oh, okay. Well, that didn't work." Um, but sometimes when I offer it, the person's like, "Okay, let's try it," and then it becomes a very, very important aspect, uh, you, you know, an important intervention, and they remember that as the, you know, they continue therapy. Um, I, I like to say this, by the way. In my, my very first time training, um, on Jungian analytical play therapy, I said, um, that Jungian analytical play therapy is a way of being and seeing, not a way of doing, which I think is true. Mm. And I also realized afterwards that it's kind of like putting people in a pool and saying, "Swimming is a way of being with the water, so just be with it." Um, but people who are learning need to know how to do some dos, um, while they're learning how to be with and see. Um, so, um, I think that's a really important thing to talk about. You talked about one already, serial drawing-

Cathi Spooner: 27:16

Mm-hmm… Jared Andes: with John Allen. Um, so for people who don't know that one, first off, it's chapter two of that book. It's a great chapter. Um, so the idea of that one is we sometimes look at a drawing from a child and think, "Okay, this is what this drawing means." We derive meaning. We kind of d- even direct therapy off of that one drawing. Um, and it's kind of like looking at one snapshot from a child's life and saying,"Aha, I think I understand what's going on here." Mm.

Jared Andes: 27:43

When I worked in the hospital, we really focused on trends, right? Where is the blood pressure going? Is it going up, down, staying the same? Heart rate, same thing. Doing serial drawings allows you to do that same concept. Where are the trends going? Where's the energy going? Is this person in… Uh, John Allen, um, identifies three areas. Is this in chaos? Um, are we moving to resolution? Where are we in, in this whole phase, uh, you know, in this, in this child's life? So serial drawings, the child will come in and they'll draw. Um, doesn't have to be every session, but, you know, they will draw regularly. And again, it could be a directive. You could say, "Hey, draw me a picture of your family. Draw a picture of a house." You could do a, um, you know, person, house, tree. Um, y- or if you're less directive, you could say,"Here, here's a piece of paper. Draw whatever you'd like." Over time, as you're viewing how these pictures change and evolve, um, you're able to see how the therapeutic process is ex- is happening within the child. And it's not a one picture tells me the whole story. It's this series of photos gives me an idea over time what's happening.

Cathi Spooner: 28:51

Yeah. That's awesome. One, one of the ways I've used it is I've, um, used the prompt, if you were an animal, what kind of animal would you be, and what kind of environment would your animal like to live in? And then we kinda use that to go from there. So, yeah.

Jared Andes: 29:10

I'm smiling about that one, because I'm always assigned to the bald eagle. Um, but I don't think I would choose that for myself. I think I would choose something different.

Cathi Spooner: 29:18

That's funny. Yeah. You know what? It's, it's interesting as you were, as you were talking about like the leading or following, and I think that's what struck me so much when I, when I did the training probably nine years ago now, um, is how similar that kind of philosophy is with child-centered play therapy. Because when I got trained a gazillion years ago, you pretty much only had one option, and that was child-centered play therapy. Um, and s- so now there's a, there's a l- lot more options. I think the, the thing that I found beneficial about child-centered play therapy is you have to really learn how to get out of grown-up mode and give up control, and just really focus on being present-

Jared Andes: 30:17

Yeah

Cathi Spooner: 30:17

and being attuned. Um, and I, I hear that a lot from what you're saying with the Jungian model, which is that u- that use of self, therapeutic use of self, it's the relationship, it's the relationship, it's the relationship, and everything kind of flows out of that.

Jared Andes: 30:38

Yeah. And I think, um, sometimes we cr- we co-create interventions in the, the Jungian space, right? While we're playing with the child, m- you know, the play is happening, it's evolving. W- we may not know where it's going, but, um, because we're so in tune with the relationship and, um, because we are self-attuned, we can realize that, okay, I think this is the energy that the child's bringing to this. This is where they're trying to get this to go. Um, and we can w- you know, offer things sometimes. Um, if the child's like, y- if they seem like they're stuck, or if it seems like I'm stuck and I'm not sure exactly where I need to go, I'll say,"Oh-" Like, what do I do? Do I do this thing? And the child will be like,"No, do that thing." Or they're like, "Yes, do that." Um, and so I follow the lead, but it gets kind of co-created, and those are the, the most powerful interventions I've found. Not the ones that like, "Oh, okay, I read this in that book. I'm gonna go do that, like, on Thursday with that

child at 3: 31:25

00." It's more, okay, we're… Like, I'm in this, I'm in the actual moment, I'm in the relationship. Something about the unconscious connectedness- Mm … is telling me this is where this might need to go. Let me try it out, and sometimes it works, like I said. And, and when it does, it's very powerful. And sometimes I'm like, "Oh, nope, I missed that one. Okay, I'll try it again."

Cathi Spooner: 31:46

I know, and I, I, I find that, too. Like, sometimes you're like, "This is an easy fix. Oops, I got that wrong," you

Jared Andes: 31:57

know? Yeah. But you're like, "Okay." Easy fix for you. Yeah. But yeah, the child has their own idea. Um, and, um, you know, after I finished with JP, I still had to do, um… There was a moratorium on the applications. That's when I got my RPT. Oh, wow. And so I had to continue doing, um, supervision, and he suggested that I go to someone who did, who does, uh, child-centered, so I did child-centered afterwards, which was a very hard switch. I feel like the switch from child-centered to Jungian analytical play therapy might be an easier switch, but I don't know. I've only done it one way. Yeah. Um, but y- I think you're right. The, um, the relationship is such a key focus for both. That w- that part was so easy. I can, I could be in the relationship with the child. I could surrender the control of the session, um, knowing that I'm gonna be able to set therapeutic and safe boundaries for both of us.

Cathi Spooner: 32:43

Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I, um, I know you guys have a training coming up, um, at this month actually. Do you wanna- Yeah … for people who are interested in learning more about Jungian analytic theory, do you wanna tell them a little bit about the training and, like, h- when it is, how long it is? Is there a virtual option? Is there an in-person option? How do they register?

Jared Andes: 33:20

I'm happy to do that. Yeah. We're… So the training is, um, Back to the Future: The Past, Present, and Future of Jungian Analytical Play Therapy. Now, that's a mouthful. Um, so we'll be looking at Jungian analytical play therapy, um, through the lens of Back to the Future. Um, so we're gonna start in the past, and we're gonna work all the way up to where we are today, and look into what the future may hold for, uh, Jungian analytical play therapy, and play therapy in general. Um- Hmm … we are going to talk about the theory. We're gonna, we're gonna look really deeply into the theory, the anatomy of the psyche, all of those important things, all of those aspects that you have to know if you're gonna do this, because theory drives the intervention, not the other way around, right? So, um- Yeah … JP would say all of the time, like, without the theory, the interventions are dangerous. Um, and, and by the way, I didn't say this yet, but Carl Jung called this a most dangerous method. Um, so we really do need to know the model- Mm-hmm … the, the theory really well. Um, and so we're gonna take six hours, um, which is still just the introduction. It's a-

Cathi Spooner: 34:19

Yeah… Jared Andes: great way to that you continue to work on and master over the, the course of your, your whole career. Um, so six hours, uh, in Lehigh on June 26th. Um, great way to get some history, uh, CEs if you need them, and of course, seminal theory, um, because that's six hours of a seminal theory Um, and it also, we're gonna be doing some of our own inner work, um, because like I mentioned, this is about self-attunement. You can't go into the, um, play therapy room, you can't enter temenos and be safe if you don't know who you are and what's going on with yourself. So we're gonna do a little bit of that, um, of course encourage people to do their own work individually as well, um, but we're gonna look at that. Um, and yeah, if you're interested, it's utahplaytherapy.org. You can get your tickets and registration there, um, and sign up. We- I think we have nine tickets left. Oh, okay. And is it, is it just in person?

Jared Andes: 35:15

Yes, it is just in person. Oh, okay.

Cathi Spooner: 35:16

Oh, that's interest- yeah, that's awesome. Um, and I, you know, I think you said something too, I think is really, really important, and we were kinda talking about this before 'cause you and I both supervise people, um, pursuing their registered play therapy credential, but also like helping people learn how to take theory and apply it. That's what, that's what supervision is. How do you take a theory and how do you apply it in practical application? And, um, I, I think it's really important to learn a theory, and one of the ways that you figure out what theory you resonate with is going to different trainings to get information and learning about the theory to see if it's something that resonates with you, and then you have the opportunity from there to learn how to apply it, and that's the key. Like the training is key, but a consultation is key as well. A lot of what you were talking about before, which is that, that self-work and how do you tell if it's me or if it's the client, or what do I do in this situation? My client did this. But you're always looking through the lens of the theory, so you're looking through the lens, how would Jungian analytic play therapy, how would, how would they define what is at the root of the problem, and what are the patterns sustaining it? So you're looking at it through that theoretical lens. But the … And then you're gonna learn how to apply, what does that look like in the first phase? What does that look like in the second phase? How do you know when they're ready to terminate- Successfully. Well, you're only gonna know if you figure out what stage of change they're in and where they are in the healing process, which means you have to- Yeah go back to your theory model to figure out what your theory would say is evidence of their readiness for discharge. Yeah, so I think- Mm … I think that's awesome. I, I've been excited to see that Utah Association for Play Therapy, you guys have been doing some seminal and historic… We kind of talked about that before we hit the live, so I think it's, um, awesome. You guys have a lot of good trainings going on there.

Jared Andes: 37:51

Yeah, I'm excited for the lineup that I have this year, and we haven't, um, we haven't told everybody or haven't told anybody about what's going on for next year but it's in the works. I'm excited for that. I think we're gonna bring in some, some, uh, great trainings that people are going to enjoy. And, um- Oh … also just playing off of what you said, there's a, a Carl Jung quote, um-

Cathi Spooner: 38:08

Oh… Jared Andes: specific Um, so he said, "Know all the theories, master all the techniques, but when it comes to being," uh, sorry, "when it comes to touching another soul, just be a human soul." Mm. That's awesome. Yeah. Kind of speaks to that healing power of presence too.

Jared Andes: 38:28

Yeah.

Cathi Spooner: 38:28

And knowing how you're gonna Gotta

Jared Andes: 38:29

master it and then yes.

Cathi Spooner: 38:31

Yes.

Jared Andes: 38:31

We can be that healing presence.

Cathi Spooner: 38:33

Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, thank you. So for those of you who are interested, we are gonna put in the comments, we'll put a link to the training so you can register. Also, if you want to get in touch with Jared, you can alway- I, we put some of the links in the description, so you can check out his website, you can connect with him on Facebook and Instagram. If you're interested in learning about what the Utah Association for Play Therapy is up to, then pop over to their website. So and that, that is it for today. So we will see you guys… Well, I'll see you guys next week, and Jared will hopefully see you at the training.

Jared Andes: 39:21

Yes.

Cathi Spooner: 39:22

All right. Excited for that Thank you for joining me on this episode of Next Level Play Therapy. I hope you found the discussion valuable and gained new insights and ideas to support your work helping children, adolescents, and families heal. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. Your feedback helps to improve and reach more people who can benefit from this information. Remember, play therapy is a powerful tool for healing and growth. Whether you're a new play therapist or experienced, I encourage you to continue your learning journey to unlock the potential of play in your own work and relationships. If you have any questions or topic suggestions for future episodes, I'd love to hear from you. Connect with me on social media and visit my website at Renewing Hearts Play Therapy Training to stay updated on upcoming episodes, trainings, and resources. Thank you once again for listening to Next Level Play Therapy. Until next time, keep playing, learning, and growing.