The Laura Dowling Experience
Conversations about health, science, wellness, life, love, sex and everything in-between. Laura is a Pharmacist who loves to talk to interesting people about their unique life and work experiences. See @fabulouspharmacist on instagram for more information.
The Laura Dowling Experience
Movement, Grief & Coming Out – Finding Strength in Vulnerability
James Green's honest conversation reveals how movement and authenticity can transform both physical and mental wellbeing. His personal journey through chronic illness, grief, and sexuality creates a powerful narrative about finding strength in vulnerability.
• Athletic therapy specializes in musculoskeletal care, focusing on injury assessment and rehabilitation
• Most effective rehabilitation comes from education and rebuilding strength rather than passive treatments
• Progressive overload through increased weight, reps, or time under tension is key for continued strength gains
• Exercise significantly benefits chronic illness management beyond physical improvements
• Living with ulcerative colitis taught James how to navigate triggers while maintaining quality of life
• Losing his sister at age 27 forced a reevaluation of priorities and authentic living
• Coming out as gay after years of hiding brought tremendous relief and freedom
• Sports and fitness environments can perpetuate homophobic attitudes through casual language and locker room culture
• Teaching cadaveric anatomy provided unique perspective on mortality and human individuality
• Life's meaning ultimately comes down to loving and being loved by those closest to us
Thanks for listening! You can watch the full episode on YouTube here. Don’t forget to follow The Laura Dowling Experience podcast on Instagram @lauradowlingexperience for updates and more information. You can also follow our host, Laura Dowling, @fabulouspharmacist for more insights and tips. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review—it really helps us out! Stay tuned for more great conversations.
I struggled massively with my mental health growing up, primarily related to my sexuality, so I'm openly gay.
Speaker 2:So you're 27, you've grown up in, I suppose, woke culture where we would hope would be able to live their own lives in their own way. But you say that you struggled massively. Why was that?
Speaker 1:Maybe people who are homophobic are like oh, it's a choice. It's most definitely not a choice. I tried my best for many years.
Speaker 1:You tried your best to be not gay yeah, it's like I literally tried to force myself to be attracted to women, trying to shift as many girls as possible. Getting the lads approval, I'd probably just try to get as drunk as possible, send like I had to get with anyone last night. Like I know man, I was too drunk and I wanted to get with x, y and z, but I can't do it.
Speaker 2:Use alcohol to like did you grow up in a religious household or?
Speaker 1:yeah, like like my mom would have been very religious growing up, like most people around me would have been homophobic, whether it be family, friends school, all boys catholic school making snide comments, and just really reinforces that internal shame, like it makes you hate yourself so much back then like I probably would have rather been dead than people find out it was gay and what was it like when you come out to your mother?
Speaker 1:so I was like oh, I have something to tell you. So I sat her down and I was like I'm gay. She's like why didn't you just tell me? Like she's just so upset that I wasn't able to tell her. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:I did not expect this podcast to go this way.
Speaker 1:You're like do you want to talk about being a letter therapist? Oh my, goodness.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to the Laura Daniel Experience, where each week, I bring you insightful and inspiring guests that will open your mind and empower your life. Today, I had the absolute privilege of speaking with James Green, an athletic therapist whose wisdom, honesty and vulnerability truly blew me away. We spoke about the powerful role of resistance, training and movement in recovery and how it can support those living with autoimmune conditions such as ulcerative colitis, from which James suffers from himself. James also shared the heartbreaking impact of losing his sister at just 27 years old, a loss that has deeply affected his entire family and shaped so much of who he is today, and he also opened up about his sexuality, how it took years before he felt safe enough to share that part of himself and the heavy toll that hiding it took on his mental health. It makes me so sad to think that even now, in a country we like to think of as open and progressive, there are still people who feel that they can't live their truth. This conversation is raw, powerful and deeply human. I cried several times during it myself. It was one of those really unexpected conversations with just a beautiful, beautiful man, and it's one of those episodes that I think really needs to be heard, so please do share it with someone that you love.
Speaker 2:Before we get into today's episode, I would love to ask you for a little favor. If you like this podcast and I know so many of you do you could really help me out by giving it a nice rating, sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the podcast. It may not seem like a big deal, but actually this really helps to keep the podcast high up in the charts, and that means that I can keep bringing you brilliant guests who are insightful, inspiring and full of wisdom that we can all learn from. Thanks a million. Now let's get to it. This episode is brought to you today by Shrooms and Repose for Men, the latest addition to the Fab U range.
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Speaker 2:This episode was produced by podcutteditingcom. These guys have taken my podcast production to the next level. Check them out at podcutteditingcom. Tell them Laura Dowling sent you and they might even do your first podcast free of charge. Okay, james, so happy to have you on the podcast. You were recommended to me by a doctor who was already on the podcast, eilish Fitzgerald, who is a breast surgeon. We had a great podcast talking about boobs. Anyway, this is a totally different podcast. Well, we can talk about boobs if you want, but you're not really a boob person.
Speaker 2:You're an athletic therapist, which I want to know what that means, because I would have always thought it was physiotherapist or physical therapist. So you can explain your qualification, what you do and how fantastic you are, because you obviously are, if Ailish has recommended you to me, so let's go straight into it.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for having me on, laura. So in terms of my background athletic therapy, athletic therapist a lot of people don't know what. I was in a shop last week and I had a top on saying athletic therapist and the shopkeeper was like, do you mind me asking what is an athletic therapist? I was like, funny ask prep for today. My undergrad was in athletic therapy and training in DCU, so it's a four-year course and it's basically a specialization in musculoskeletal um care. So injury rehabilitation, injury assessment of msk, which is like injury injuries of bones, muscles, ligaments, tendons and rehabilitation for that. So the name itself would make it sound like you work with just an active population or just sports teams.
Speaker 2:But very true yeah, I thought this man is just looking at the Irish rugby team.
Speaker 1:No absolutely not. So we work with full population, work with kids all the way up to the elderly pussies, give care, everything like that. So the name is a bit deceiving, but yeah, I work with the full population.
Speaker 2:Okay, and what is the difference between you as an athletic therapist versus a physiotherapist, then?
Speaker 1:There are a lot of similarities and, like the way a lot of people describe it is, athletic therapists are very similar to sports physios in that sense. But again it can be quite deceiving because we do work with the general population as well. So I describe physiotherapy as being a lot more broad. They cover kind of neuro, they cover cardio, cardiorespiratory and kind of everything in between there. A lot of them work in hospital settings but they can work in sports settings as well, whereas we specialize just in MSK. So the musculoskeletal side of things.
Speaker 1:Okay so we'd be considered experts in that area.
Speaker 2:But you don't go into hospital settings.
Speaker 1:No, although I think there is a place for us in hospital settings.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking because you're not going to ortho? I was just thinking because you're not going to ortho, like orthopaedics, yeah, or like post-surgical care there definitely will be, especially how overrun hospitals are.
Speaker 1:In Ireland I know the NHS are starting to hire sports therapists, which are kind of the UK equivalent to athletic therapists. But I think there definitely will be a beneficial role there. And we do work with a lot of post-surgical care when they're released from hospital because obviously they don't get adequate follow-up to get them back to the level they might want to be at, especially if they're people who are returning to sport. So we might see them from the week to get out of hospital until, however, say like, if it's an Achilles injury, it might be nine months, if it's like a meniscectomy in the knee or something, it might be quicker. But we deal with a lot of that population as well. So would someone go to you then say because they have an injury yes, okay, exactly. So again, it can be any sort of injury, anywhere from the toes all the way up to the neck, like we'd see different things every single day.
Speaker 2:The most common things you probably see would be the likes of the lower back pain, neck pain in general population and then the more sporting injuries you'd be looking at knees, hamstrings, things like that and do you get them up on a table and just feel where the pain is and assess the injury that way and then give them exercises in order to strengthen the muscles, the tendons, the bones? Or how do you work?
Speaker 1:Nearly everyone comes in they're like oh, this is not what I expected physio to be, because they're expecting to hop up on the table and me to use, like my magic hands, and fix them. But it's just not that whatsoever. The most important part for me is the subject of the exam, so it's just chatting to the person, getting to know them, getting to know their history. It's very rarely a one-off incident that causes the pain. Usually there's an accumulative factor, so it could be the person's lifestyle, stress, their job, so many different things that contribute to this. So just treating the person as a whole.
Speaker 1:I do very little hands-on work myself. A lot of people do a lot of hands-on work. For the actual assessment itself, the objective assessment, you'd obviously assess the area. So if it's a knee, you'd do an assessment. There's different special tests you'd use. You'd examine range of motion, strength around the knee. So example quads, hamstrings, calf strength, things like that you might assess and then, based off that, you'd come up with a differential diagnosis. Off that you'd come up with a differential diagnosis. Sometimes it's really clear, like if someone had like an acl injury in their knee, that might be like really clear. But then if it's something in the lower back. It's very hard to diagnose a specific injury in the lower back, so the majority of lower back pain is diagnosed as non-specific lower back pain. But people don't like hearing that. They like knowing exactly what's wrong.
Speaker 1:But yeah if you give a specific diagnosis for a lower back injury, chances are you're talking about your ears, because 90% of it is nonspecific.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And even if you have an MRI, it's very hard to say what's actually causing the pain.
Speaker 2:Because I was going to say that, because I remember I had a shoulder injury Goodness, it's coming up to a year now and for six months I just tried to put up with it and I'm quite active. But it did affect my yoga, so I eventually went to a physio about it. That was the first time I'd been to a physio. I did a podcast with him actually afterwards.
Speaker 2:Albert Keogh, that's not how we met great no no, no great guy, but you're talking about the initial assessment and the non-handling of the person. Because that's so interesting, because that just struck me an hour and I was like we're kind of shooting the breeze here, like what's you know, literally a half an hour, yap. Then we had then he assessed the shoulder and then, you know, he gave me exercises to help me with it and it did, but it took time.
Speaker 2:And I didn't realise that when you're injured, you automatically compensate for the injury by not doing the well. First of all, it's painful to do the exercises you would have normally done and, as a result, your muscles, your tendons weaken so it makes it more difficult than the long run. So yet it's a good idea when you're injured to go and get seen to as soon as possible, I'm presuming yeah, oh 100.
Speaker 1:If someone goes through gp with lower back pain, it's very old-fashioned model. They might just be like oh rest, bed, rest, lie down on a hard floor yeah three weeks take three weeks off work but there's an anti-inflammatory, yeah a lot of time.
Speaker 1:That's absolutely the worst thing you can do taking complete rest. That just deconditions even further, increases fear avoidance around movement. To be told not to bend over. They'll increase fear around that. Your brain will perceive that movement as bad and then it just increases the risk of chronicity as well, becoming a long-term thing. The chronic lower back pain is one of the biggest issues in terms of like costs.
Speaker 2:I'd say it's the reason why. So pain management obviously is huge in pharmacy, particularly like if we're talking about like non-prescriptions, just OTC management of pain would be quite a big business, as in you know a lot of people will come in for it and, apart from say you know your headaches, know a lot of people will come in for it and apart from say you know your headaches your period pains and that I'd say back pain.
Speaker 2:Yeah would be 100, the vast majority of the pain that you're treating with, I suppose, your otc paracetamol, ibuprofens, and then coding when necessary, yeah, and people become addicted to the coding then and it kind of this vicious cycle. So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it is chronic. Back pain is hugely under diagnosed, I suppose, and over medicalised as in over, treated with medicines rather than physio. Am I right?
Speaker 1:yeah, but even in that I think the treatment of it in physio is very poor too is it controversial, james?
Speaker 2:let's talk a bit about the physios, not physio, yeah athletic therapists as well. I mean like private practice in general, I love it. A bit of controversy there's mad to start upon now. That's it, yeah.
Speaker 1:But no, like they go to somebody and they're giving like a massage, mobilizations, everything and that can help a little bit with like short-term pain relief. But that puts the onus on the therapist then. So then they get a little bit of pain relief. They're like, okay, that person knows what they're doing, gets worse again over next week. They go back to get that pain relief again. So they're relying on that person instead of rebuilding tissue capacity, rebuilding strength around the area, like having the confidence to go about their daily life, to be able to pick something up off the floor. So they're like avoiding things in day-to-day life. Then they're going back to get that little bit of pain relief and the cycle continues.
Speaker 1:Obviously the therapist is making money because that person's coming back every week, whether it's for dry kneeling, massage, mobilizations, all these hands-on technique, techniques just very little evidence that they actually do anything to help long term okay, so they help acute pain, so pain in the immediate sense the dry need and I'm interested in that.
Speaker 2:I got that done once when I after I had a baby and I had awful glute pain, I was like I should check it. I might as well try it yeah can you explain what that is? Because it's a real. It's a big long needle going into your muscle to kind of form a nerve twitch or something yeah, how did you find it?
Speaker 1:did you enjoy it?
Speaker 2:not really no no, I didn't. I didn't like the look of a big, long yoke going in into that area oh, be careful.
Speaker 1:But.
Speaker 2:I, but I in some, in certain settings, I like long yokes going into certain areas. Okay, but it was also so. It went in and my muscle twitched yes and I suppose your mum was like, oh, does that feel better, or that will feel better, and I suppose I wanted to just be a good patient and say, yeah, it did, but it probably didn't really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now to be honest, I'm qualified to do it. Have I ever done this in private practice? No, I do think it's kind of a load of shite, to be honest.
Speaker 2:Oh, do you yeah.
Speaker 1:I'd never use it. I do think any effect it's gotten from it. It's so variable. Some people like it. They use it Runners of tight calves and stuff like getting dry needled. Other people have had it and they hate it. The evidence for it as well.
Speaker 1:So if you go, to a physiotherapy therapist and they're trying needling, they'll be like, oh, what's this actually doing? Majority of them won't know. If you go to a few different people they'll probably give you all different answers. So they put the and again. There's been issues with it before as well, so the insurance for it now it's gone a lot more expensive because there has been cases of pneumothorax from it as well, people not knowing their anatomy properly and puncturing people's lungs from doing it again. It's quite rare, but it is obviously a risk as well. If you're doing in the mid-back area, you can probably do damage anywhere with stick of the knee?
Speaker 1:I think so too as well like you'll see a lot of people just beding around. I remember I was doing the course and I did a few people as friends that off my course. I did it just after I qualified and we were practicing and I just put it through, put it, he's doing it in my arm. It came out the other side of my arm. So if you don't know your anatomy which a lot of people don't after college they don't know their anatomy as well as they probably should I think there is risk to do some harm as well. But again, if you're going to like a qualified profession who knows what to do, and they should have good knowledge of it and some people swear by it, but I do think there is a massive placebo element to it okay, if you see a big needle going into your leg and you see a muscle response like that's going to do something in your brain that's like, oh, that's helping me, that's going to help, like the feeling of tightness or like go away.
Speaker 2:Mind over matter is amazing, isn't it? The placebo effect is massive.
Speaker 1:Even if you're told something and you believe it, chances are it might change a bit of brain chemistry there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's mad. So they come to you, you assess them, but you don't manhandle them too much. You do a diagnosis from just speaking to them about their life and their injury etc.
Speaker 1:And then what follows on from that would make a treatment plan. Then sometimes you might need more hands-on than others, but like it's not essential either. During covid there was a lot of like online assessments as well, so that just kind of showed that you don't particularly need to use hands-on to help people. But yeah, after diagnosis it's the education part. For me is probably the most important. So educating the person around is setting realistic expectations. Some people will come to an analytic therapist or a physio expecting to be fixed within a couple of sessions, but for a lot of people that can be months to years before. Like, for example, you've probably seen people in a pharmacy with a frozen shoulder. That can be a long, long recovery. Same with the likes of, say, for example, oa in the knee.
Speaker 2:What's OA?
Speaker 1:Osteoarthritis Again so common.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It can cause disability, but the education around that is so important. People think if they have wear and tear or osteoarthritis in the joint they're destined for poor function and pain. But that's not always the case and there's so many people that have OA that don't even have any symptoms.
Speaker 2:And that's not always the case. And there's so many people that have OA that don't even have any symptoms, and I suppose if someone has OA, regardless of what baseline they're at with the OA, if they put their mind to it and do try whatever exercises that someone like you might show them, are they more or less guaranteed to benefit in some way from that rather than just staying the same.
Speaker 1:It's so individual because there's such a different degree of OA, Like if it's really severe OA like a joint replacement probably will be the best option.
Speaker 2:Can you just give a little explanation to people who don't know what osteoarthritis actually means?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What physically happens to the joint or the bone.
Speaker 1:When people think of arthritis a lot people think of like the inflammatory arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis that you tend to see in like fingers and toes, those kind of joints, but osteoarthritis generally the most common joints you'll see them in are the weight-bearing joints, so the knees and the hips. It's typically described as a wear and tear form of arthritis. It occurs over years of just use.
Speaker 1:There is genetic factors too as well. If your mom has issues with her knees, someone comes in to me and I suspect possibly differential, possibly differential diagnosis might be osteoarthritis. I'd always ask about family history. So there are genetic components too. A lot of times you go into a doctor sorry for going off track here, but if you're slightly overweight, I lose the weight. It's just the weight causing your knee pain, but there is a massive fat bias in healthcare obviously of fat bias.
Speaker 1:then yes in healthcare, obviously, but sorry, I went off track there again.
Speaker 2:I think that was important to say. Hopefully less and less now, because we are becoming much more aware about weight and health and obesity and health and you know what it actually means. But there is a huge amount of bias and sure people get told. Sure women will go with 45,000 menopause symptoms to the doctor and the doctor might just turn around to them and say you know?
Speaker 1:you need to lose a bit of weight and drink a bit more water. Yeah, eat some fruit yeah, yeah, go on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll get a bit more sleep, but. I can't fucking sleep we could go on, but we won't labour on that point.
Speaker 1:But yeah so that's that's, interesting yeah, and also that, again, osteoarthritis is a massive one. The joint replacements now are so much more effective than they were in the past as well. But say, even you were asking about what people benefit from it either way. So even doing some form of prehab, so strength training before your surgery will improve outcomes post surgery. So even if you know you're going to get a surgery like I have a few clients at the minute that they're definitely body strength training before that, because if you're not doing anything before the surgery, you're going to become more deconditioned and it would be a much harder battle post-surgery then to get back to where you want to be, whereas if you actually have a decent level of global strength, a bit of conditioning, it'll be a lot easier than post-surgery.
Speaker 2:And by global strength you mean like just full body strength, like you can still work your core, upper body.
Speaker 1:You can do some form of conditioning. So, whether that's you might not be able to like, do a squat, or use like a rolling machine or something you might not be able to run, but you could still do different variations of conditioning to get your heart rate up and to get those cardiovascular benefits as well okay, yeah, so in your clinic.
Speaker 2:What's the name of it?
Speaker 1:yes, working two different things at a minute, so health and performance academy is like the online thing that I do but you speak very fast, sorry, sorry.
Speaker 2:Health and Performance Academy.
Speaker 1:Health and Performance Academy is my own online thing, so that's I work one-to-one online with clients, but then in person I work out of FireFit, which I was telling you about. We're located in Churchtown and Knockline.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So FireFit is the gym itself, and then we have a separate clinic in each gym fire fit physio and performance yeah which has just been christened. In the last couple of weeks, so it was just myself for the last year and a half when I started there doing the injury rehabilitation and personal training for special populations. But we've hired someone down a couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2:She's an athletic therapist but also a physio, so she's joined the team now to work from both locations as well wow, that's brilliant congratulations, and that's why I was asking in the clinic setting there's a gym there, is there or there's weights that you show people how to actually do these training and conditioning exercises.
Speaker 1:Yes, so the location, the fire fit location in Churchtown, there's a big area, there's like four racks and there's loads of different equipment and so we go through like full, pretty high resistance training in there. And then the one in knock line, it's a physio room which is equipment in there, but then we have access to the gym as well and how do you ensure are your patients good at doing what you tell them? It depends. It depends on the person generally and some comes into me initially.
Speaker 2:I'd never give them any more than three exercises yeah the reality is humans are lazy as fuck yeah, yeah, I didn't even do my exercises with my physio. I knew ellie didn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I could tell when you were telling me she definitely didn't do her exercises.
Speaker 2:I did not do my exercises I just because they weren't exercises that I normally do. So then he actually what happened was and the third time I went back to him he goes. I said I just, I just don't know, I just can't do them because I like to do what I do do. And then he just said well, okay, instead of doing your shoulder press, you just reach up a bit higher.
Speaker 2:so he was actually just manipulating the exercises for me, so I'd actually do an exercise that was going to benefit me yeah, interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1:so things like that, like habit stacking, works really well.
Speaker 1:Yeah a lot of people. Basically, those exercises a lot of them are really boring, like you don't really want to do them, but like if you want to get better, like they're obviously going to be beneficial. But say, for example, if your normal routine is go to the gym twice a week, I'd just try and incorporate a couple of exercises between the exercises that you're already doing or habits that can so. Say, if someone had an ankle injury, they needed to work on their proprioception and their single leg balance explain what proprioception is, please so proprioception is like your brain when you're walking.
Speaker 1:Your brain's connection to your ankle is not like you're not like, so you're more likely to go over on your ankle again after injuring it because the connection is kind of inhibited a little bit. So trying to regain that after injury, you might get somebody like oh, just when you're brushing your teeth stand on one leg for 20 seconds and it's easy to remember. It doesn't add any extra time to the day and the standing on one leg.
Speaker 2:I just did a post about it last night actually that's that's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's that's why I brought it up.
Speaker 1:So explain the importance of being able to stand on one leg yeah, so single leg balance is so important, especially you talked about it in the related to aging. So as you age, you're obviously we know that our bone density reduces and our muscle mass is reduced as well, as well as our motor output or strength and stuff too. So having the ability to stand on one leg is really important. I think it's more of a correlation rather than a causation, though similar to you've probably seen the studies on grip strength that the stronger your grip is, the lower your risk of all-cause mortality, but that's not saying that if you just work on your grip strength every day, you're going to live forever yeah, it's that's related to your global strength and how you are as a person.
Speaker 1:So the single leg balance is really important because your risk of falls is going to increase as you age as well, and there's studies that show like if you fall right, the higher your risk of falling, the more at risk of that you are pretty much, but also if you fall and you fracture a hip, your risk of death increases massively. I can't remember the exact percentage it's pretty stark.
Speaker 2:It's within five years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, two to five years it's significant, yeah, but if you like, fracture your hip from a fall, you're significantly at risk of death in the following years compared to somebody who is stronger and might be able to catch themselves.
Speaker 2:So so it's all about, isn't it all about? It's about mobility, so it's about about. Isn't it all about? It's about mobility, so it's about being able to move, it's about strength.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And it's, it's a balance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's all three. Yeah, and in order to be able to get all of them right. It's various forms of exercise, so it isn't just strength training, it's also stretching.
Speaker 1:It's like a minimum of 150 minutes of cardiovascular exercises per week, a minimum of three days of resistance training, a minimum of two days of flexibility. It's like that's just really daunting for people especially if you don't exercise, how am I going to fit in 10 days of training?
Speaker 2:a week, but there are ways you can work around this.
Speaker 1:Say for example, you want to work on your cardiovascular training, your mobility and your strength training, that can all be incorporated into one session pretty easily if you know how it's structured. So, say like resistance training is one of the best ways to improve range of motion, so you don't have to do resistance training and you're stretching separately. If you're working your joints through a full range of motion with a bit of weight, that's like for me that's brilliant, that's more than enough. And then you could also like say, superset, or do triceps with a few different resistance training movements. Get your heart rate up a little bit, and that'll give you a little bit of a. Obviously, it'd be great if you could do like some higher intensity cardiovascular exercise too to get the heart rate up more, just for a bit more benefit. But like, going from zero to one has the biggest effect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and can I just ask you, do you have any recommendations for people that are listening and say they don't necessarily want to go and join a gym?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They don't have the time or the means to Are there. Online classes that people can just do for either free or for a small payment that will show them how to start again.
Speaker 1:So many people don't want to go to the gym and I don't blame you for it as well. Like the gym environment, it can be intimidating. It adds more time to it, especially if you're really busy with young kids. So I mean you can add an hour to your day so I just do.
Speaker 2:I just hit the online. I do an online YouTube session with this girl called Caroline up in Belfast or up the north somewhere and she's got a real wee Belfast accent and every time she starts it she goes let's go. I actually feel she's my best friend because I more or less like four times a week do one of her sessions and it's great and I just have dumbbells in my house so I got them over COVID because I couldn't go to the gym over COVID. I was going batshit crazy.
Speaker 2:I need to exercise in order to feel happy and it's, she's great and it's free but, I suppose I am familiar with how to work out because I've worked out for years, so someone starting out might find one long half hour session daunting. So how would someone who does not know how to lift a dumbbell properly without injuring themselves? Where do they go?
Speaker 1:In terms of resources. Online there are videos that teach you on YouTube how to do a squat, how to do a push-up regression, so like a push-up against the wall for upper body strength. But what I find works well. Say, for example, my mother. She's big into cardio. She walks every day, she swims nearly every day, she cycles nearly every day, does she? The idea of weight training for her was absolutely foreign until a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1:But she had a bit of a health scare a couple of years ago and she lost like so much muscle mass. So I was like, right, you need to fucking start doing some weight training. So I did with her. Literally just gave her two exercises to work on every second day. So she was just doing so. We had a couple of dumbbells and a bench at home from COVID, as most people do. So she was just doing a goblet squat with like three kg and then she was doing like a dumbbell bench press, lying down and pressing up. And then she did that, say like three times a week for like a couple of months and like just made it part of her routine and like the benefits she got from that was like amazing. But then we added one more exercise to that. So then she's doing three exercises a day and then now, a couple years later, she's still doing four exercises a day, three to four times a week.
Speaker 2:So the benefit like she's getting from that like and is she increasing the weight every so often to kind of get that resistance up? Yes, so like my teenage boy says to me you're still lifting 12.5s, mom. Like I mean you need to increase that to 15 or you're not going to make any gains. I'm like I don't really care about gains, I just want to care about strength. But is that true if you keep lifting the same weight? You're not really the benefits flatline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like your body does adapt to the imposed stimulus, but like if you keep lifting the same weights, it's probably going to be enough to maintain where you're at, but ideally to increase muscle mass and increase strength, strength.
Speaker 2:You will have some form of progressive overload.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that could be true. Increase in weight, so you could add on one kg every couple of weeks. Or that could be true increase in reps, so you might do one or two extra reps at the end of your last set. But it could also be, if you don't have access to more weights and you don't like you don't want to do more reps, you can increase time under tension. So say, for example, if you're doing a squat, you're just flying through and you could count three seconds on the way down, so it's going to increase the tension on the legs as you go down. That'll make the reps harder overall.
Speaker 2:So there are different ways of manipulating the exercises.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that'd be like the eccentric portion, the lowering, the lengthening of the muscle. You slow that down. That'll make the exercise harder overall and that can help with muscle hypertrophy then as well.
Speaker 2:So building muscle, and I think it's so important as well for people to understand that you don't start at you know the highest weight or you can't feel oh Jesus, she's lifting 10kg and I can only lift 3. That's terrible, it's you know. You're going to give yourself the benefit from actually picking up that 3kg weight and doing it, and the most benefit will be from the 3kg to 8kg maybe that you're doing it and then it's just about maintenance, isn't it, rather than trying to lift the heaviest weight and potentially putting your back out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. Yeah, like, unless you're training for something like a competition. Like for the majority of people, general population, it's just about getting those health benefits, building a little bit of both muscle building the strength and just having confidence in movement and being able to be independent as well.
Speaker 2:Can we talk a little bit about chronic illness and chronic disease and how moving your body can actually help with that? Because I know that you've been open about the fact that you have ulcerative colitis. You might explain to our listeners what that is, how that has affected you in your life and the benefits of exercise for any type of chronic illness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis. I'm 27 now, so I was diagnosed 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:Such a baby. Oh, my goodness, I'm nearly 20 years older than you. That's crazy. Nah, you don't look it. Oh, you can stay, you little charmer.
Speaker 1:So I was diagnosed 10 years ago when I was 17. But before that, realistically so I was diagnosed after my leaving. So I probably had symptoms since pre, like before junior or maybe three years of symptoms like I went to A&E multiple times during school with like just really bad stomach pain.
Speaker 2:Did you find certain foods aggravated or was it just really bad stomach pain?
Speaker 1:My teenage years were complex. I went through a lot of them and starved myself almost like I had it's like I would have been like a little bit overweight until I was 15. And then after that I probably lost a bit of tree stone in the space of a few months.
Speaker 2:Due to this illness.
Speaker 1:I don't think it was related to the illness, I think it was just my food behaviors at the time. This was before I was diagnosed, but it was like age where, like, everyone's getting girlfriends and everyone's like trying to like be sexually attractive to other people, yeah, and it was the peak like Special K died as well. So I went the full summer after my junior year. I literally just ate a bowl of Special K a day. Lost three stone.
Speaker 2:I don't believe you. Yeah, and I remember that Special K thing did so much damage, oh, so much damage To so many people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but at the time, like everyone was like, oh my God, like you look great after losing loads of weight. Oh yeah, like cardboard. And then I went back I remember going back to the next year and everyone was like Jesus, like you're after losing so much weight, like it was a thing where people would compliment you for it, whereas the reality was I was literally going through puberty the most important time to build like bone mass, muscle mass and I was literally eating like 600 700 calories a day when I should have been eating like 3000 yeah yeah, I had symptoms for like not as severe symptoms.
Speaker 1:Like severe symptoms probably didn't start until I was 17, 16, 17 and what were they? Initially it was just like stomach pain, cramps, stuff like that, but then, around the turn of leaving search year would have been like really severe diarrhea, passing a lot of blood going to the bathroom, stomach pain, really bad fatigue, cramps, um, all things like that yeah. I remember coming home after night out and I obviously had loads of vodka, red bulls or something, but just going to the bathroom and it's just literally the toilet bowl was just blood.
Speaker 2:Like, really bad.
Speaker 1:But I didn't speak to anybody about that. Why, if you're a teenage lad, the last thing you want to do?
Speaker 2:is talk to your mother about your toilet habits and stuff.
Speaker 1:Now I talk about fucking anything but back then I was like, oh, this is the worst thing ever. Like why would you be embarrassed by something like that? It's literally something that's happening inside your body. So it took a good few months for that for me to actually speak about it. I didn't go to a doctor until that was, say, february of my leaving. So I didn't go to a doctor until that summer in an accountant's office. I can't think of anything worse now.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I thought? I wanted to be an accountant because I actually quite liked accountancy. I liked a lot of stuff From my work experience. I did a week in an accountancy firm and I was the secretary. Holy God, if anything would put you off, I just hated it like that. Sitting at a desk all day. It just wasn't for me.
Speaker 1:I know for some people that they love that kind of work, but I need to be moving yeah, no, I was the exact same because, like I would have been quite good at accounting, like very good at numbers in school and I was like, oh, maybe I had a clue what I wanted to do, so then I did. I think maybe two months in the accountant's office. I was like every day I was just looking at my watch like when is this gonna be over?
Speaker 1:yeah, and at the same time, I was like going to the bathroom like 30 times a day, so it's like they thought I was just trying to waste time. Yeah but I remember like I'd go down town like five minute walk to get lunch. I'd have to like plan out my route on the way back so I'd have to stop twice on the way back to go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2:I got a five minute walk when did you eventually tell people that this is happening is?
Speaker 1:that I was around that time as well. It's like I think my mom was worried at the time. I was like jeez, you look shook. I told her and then I went to the doctor and the doctor examined me and he's like oh, I think you might have ulcerative colitis. She was like speaking a foreign language to me. I was like no idea. I remember leaving the doctor's office, so upset because I looked up my phone. It was like a lifelong condition and the first thing that comes up is like it increases the risk of cancer and stuff like that. Show me a look up on Google. Oh, I know I was given no education, no support. He's like so I think you have this lifelong condition off you go bye. Yeah, so I had a clue what the story was then took ages to get an official diagnosis, had to go for the whole colonoscopy and everything. Have you ever had the pleasure of getting one?
Speaker 1:I have not but I know many people who are jealous. Yeah, they're lovely.
Speaker 2:They're lovely experiences I'm very envious of that. Do you want to explain what that is for people that don't understand what it is?
Speaker 1:so colonoscopy is basically when you get a camera up your rectum into the bowel.
Speaker 2:But prior to getting it, don't you need to like completely clear your system out? I don't remind me, yeah.
Speaker 1:So the day before the prep is absolutely the worst part. So you have to drink this awful, horrid liquid the day before. I think it's about four litres altogether, yeah, so basically just clears your whole system out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then you get to scope the next day, basically just to see everything that's going on inside you. It might take a little bit of a sample. If you're lucky enough, you get to be awake during it as well.
Speaker 2:Were you awake for it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, which is really fun and it's actually so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, diagnose either Crohn's or colitis, so and they found that it was yes, it was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis then, and how extensive was it?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's really bad at the time, okay, and there's different classifications. Like I'm not an expert on it, so I won't I won't go into the classifications. It was fairly bad at the time because at that time I was probably going to the back like I was in my first year of college and I was probably my lifestyle was terrible as well. Like I was so unhealthy in terms of food I was eating. I was terrible as well. Like I was so unhealthy in terms of food I was eating. I was probably drinking four or five times a week, which was probably the worst thing you could do for it, but then I was also going to the bathroom about 30 times a day. Like I couldn't keep food down whatsoever. Like quality of life just wasn't there. I took ages for that. I actually dropped out of college my first year it was after first semester because I was like I just had no enjoyment whatsoever.
Speaker 2:I was going to need to get this under control.
Speaker 1:So I did. It took a long time, trial and error of different medications, to actually get it under control and be at a point where I was able to like, sustain a decent quality of life okay but then I went back to college the following year. Then it was up and down for a couple of years and then I had a pretty good period for a couple of years. A couple of flare-ups and then but then the last two half years, thankfully I've been in pretty much full remission.
Speaker 2:And do you know what caused the flare-ups? Was it stress or?
Speaker 1:It's hard to say, like they don't know exactly. There are triggers for it. They don't know the causes of it either, like there's a combination of environmental and genetic factors, but they don't know exactly what causes it. For myself, I like high life stress, stress. I feel all my stress in my stomach. So high life stress like major stressful events. It's funny a lot of the time so you might have something really bad happen in January, but that doesn't mean we get the flare up in January. It might not happen until June.
Speaker 2:So like it usually happens after the really stressful event wow okay so it's almost like your body remembers it, yeah your body does, your body holds the score. The famous saying I know, but also, maybe it's because during the stressful events, your body knows that it has to get through it. And then, once it finds it, it's like, you know, when you have a really, really busy time in work and you just go, go, go, and then you go on holidays and you get sick, yeah, because your body's just letting go.
Speaker 1:I think it's when on like yeah, so whenever I do or whenever I had it, it'll clear up. You should just get like a high dose of steroids for a couple of months and then that usually helps. For some people it doesn't help them, unfortunately, but for me I've been lucky enough and that's the medication I've been taking until now has been effective so which?
Speaker 2:what are you on?
Speaker 1:so I take pentasa and mesalazine which I'm sure you're well familiar with oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And did you ever need to go on a biologic? Or did you try any of the biologics like the humerus or no?
Speaker 1:I've tried seven or eight different medications initially, at the start and you air would have been the next call after this one, but thankfully okay, this one worked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great, isn't it? Yeah, lucky, so you've been two and a half years in remission two and a half.
Speaker 1:What years is she? I said two and a half three years, maybe in remission. Yeah, I'd say two and a half three years, maybe intermission. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:And do foods trigger it for you? Do you have to avoid certain foods, alcohol or anything?
Speaker 1:like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so foods like I definitely do have a lot of, like food related triggers, not triggers as such that would like put me back into like a major flare up but triggers that would just cause me a lot of discomfort and pain, Like I'm happy enough to say, like I haven't had any like support, like diarrhea or anything in the last two and a half years, which like for people to have ulcerative colitis or Crohn's I know I have a few friends that have them. That's the one thing that, like I can manage the pain, but it's the like constant urge to go to the bathroom that's just like would ruin your quality of life yeah so food related triggers.
Speaker 1:I do drink not near as regularly as I used to, thankfully, but when I'm drinking I stick to spirits because they just are really better.
Speaker 2:Beer and cider wine, they all absolutely, yeah, they're kind of pro-inflammatory though, aren't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think, like all the histrions and stuff in wine, the yeast and stuff in beer just seem to have a really bad. Really high fatty foods or like deep fried foods like a chipper is Chinese, those kind of foods just tear my stomach to pieces. For some people, onions can be really bad, but I find if they're like chopped really finely, I'm okay with them.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:Cream veg. The thing that you think would be most helpful for you can be a massive trigger for a lot of people as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you just need to kind of watch that on your ground. So how does exercise help with the management of, say, a chronic illness like ulcerative colitis or other illnesses that are similar, like autoimmune. I suppose isn't that what we're talking about really.
Speaker 1:Autoimmune conditions. Yeah, crohn's and colitis will be considered autoimmune, so I think there's such a role for exercise in the management of any chronic conditions. Obviously, every chronic condition is so individual the way it affects people. You could have colitis, I could have colitis, but I could be fine and you could be bed bound.
Speaker 1:So like it does affect everybody so differently. I'm lucky enough now that I'm at the point where my lifestyle is in place that I can manage it fairly well. But in terms of the disease itself, like a lot of autoimmune conditions you're going to be medications can have side effects the likes of long-term steroid use that can really negatively impact your bone density. A lot of the time people are not going to be as active as you would be if you didn't have the condition, so that in itself will impact bone density, will impact muscle mass. So people with Crohn's colitis, a lot of autoimmune conditions, are at risk of sarcopenia. So what's sarcopenia? Low muscle mass as you age sarcopenia, but also, like sarcopenia, related obesity, is massive now as well.
Speaker 1:it's a really high fat mass and low muscle mass as well, which is like the worst of all worlds yeah which is just like the perfect breeding ground for metabolic disease really yeah so we know a higher muscle mass can reduce the risk of developing metabolic disease as well like don't muscles help to increasing muscle mass.
Speaker 2:Can help to reduce insulin resistance.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But isn't it that your muscles actually use up the glycogen? Isn't that how it works? Yeah?
Speaker 1:so, like, your muscles does store a certain amount of glycogen. The more muscle mass you have, the more glycogen you can store. Yeah, so in terms of like, having a higher muscle mass can help reduce the risk of developing metabolic disease, the likes of diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease, as well as the age, which obviously can be really beneficial. But also in terms of self-efficacy, is massive in people with autoimmune disease, like my self-confidence and so many other people I know who have chronic conditions and be at a rock bottom. You don't have any trust in your body anymore. So even just having resistance training there as a way to gradually rebuild your body, rebuild confidence in your body, even aside from the physiological benefits, I think the psychological benefits are massive as well because of your physical appearance, that you're looking at yourself and you feel better because what you're seeing in the mirror looks nicer the body image is big too.
Speaker 1:But even just like hitting those weekly goals like oh, I got to 3kg this week and next week I'll go 4kg it just instills more confidence that, oh, my body's actually able to do things. It's not completely lost yeah so I think that is massive too.
Speaker 2:That's so interesting, and do you then deal specifically with people that would have ulcerative colitis in general, or is it just that people with autoimmune disease? It helps.
Speaker 1:A lot of my clients over the last good. While I've had different forms of autoimmune diseases, I don't like have a particular thing for people with ulcerative colitis and Crohn's.
Speaker 1:A lot of my clients over the years have had them just because I've shared my experience with it online. You're probably going to be more likely to want to work with somebody who actually can empathize with what you're going through and have an understanding, and not just tell you to hit your macros and calories and do this exercise three times a week, because there are obviously going to be times where you're just physically not able.
Speaker 2:And I suppose eating that high protein diet does that affect it too, when you're supposed to be bulking.
Speaker 1:It's really dependent. I don't think protein affects it really as such. I think it's beneficial to have a high protein diet when you have those type of conditions. But large meals can affect it. I'd just be sore after having a large meal. But and fibre as well is massive. So when you're going through a flare up they generally recommend to have no fibre whatsoever and that's the green vegetables.
Speaker 2:That's why sometimes you need to avoid them, because they're very high in fibre. Would that be it, or what is it?
Speaker 1:I don't know what it is about it to actually cause it. But for some green veg that might not even be that high in fibre but can still cause a lot of pain. A guy I know who has Crohn's and he was saying green peppers for him just killer. So it is. Again, it's quite individual.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, there's no list of foods to avoid but, again, like a lot of people with Crohn's and Colitis, if you anyway, and then you're trying to avoid fiber completely, which is one of the things that protects against colorectal cancer. You come into remission after being in the flare and you've been told to avoid fiber, so you tend to completely avoid fiber.
Speaker 1:Then but, like it's really important that you gradually reintroduce fiber into your diet when you are in remission, so like now, like I probably eat about 50 grams of fiber a day now, um, which, like the general recommendations, are about 30 grams for women, 35 for men, roughly, probably more. More food you eat probably need a little bit more, and it's like I'm actually able to tolerate all that now fine, whereas, like in the past, I wouldn't have been at all. So your body can, your gut can, like, read up to it it's mad when you talk to patients the amount that you learn.
Speaker 2:Actually and I said it to you before you came in here a family member of mine was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes a couple of years ago and even all the academic study that I did in college and even theses, and then dealing with patients in the pharmacy for 20 years thinking that I knew and understood the disease. But it's really when you live with someone or you love someone and you know what they they go through yeah or that you really understand what they go through, because it is not easy no, not at all.
Speaker 1:Some of the stuff I said there might not be necessarily completely evidence-based, but no, but I was, I was asking you from the point of view of a patient don't worry, we're not going to come after you don't come after james, but I'll come after you.
Speaker 2:James, I would like to talk to you a little bit about your sister.
Speaker 1:Of course.
Speaker 2:Because your sister died.
Speaker 1:She did, unfortunately yes.
Speaker 2:Would you like to talk to me about her death? Or her diagnosis and what she died from.
Speaker 1:Yes, I can give you a little bit of background. So my sister, michelle she was diagnosed with a really rare form of cancer when she was 27. So same age that I am now. That would have been back in 2018. So seven years ago. And she would have had symptoms for about six months and the lead up to her diagnosis when she was diagnosed. It took her a long time to be diagnosed because it was such a rare form of cancer that she actually had.
Speaker 2:What were the symptoms that she had?
Speaker 1:The year before. I was saying to her earlier that she had she was on about 16 courses of antibiotics over the course of the year. Like if that wasn't a red flag, like what the fuck is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she had some like back pain, some night sweats, these stereotypical red flags that like if someone came in to me I'd refer them on with. So like if you're telling them this thing, surely that would indicate further referral. But no, it took her a long time of advocating for herself and got to the point where she was just in a really bad way one weekend and like her stomach was starting to swell and over the course of two days, like she was brought to Tullamore Hospital. She was in ICU within a couple of days and her stomach was like really, really distended. I'd say she had 20-30 kg of fluid on her oh my god, I think it was.
Speaker 1:It was Easter. It was Easter time. You actually remember her saying like someone telling her she had Easter eggs and she didn't even remember that was Easter at the time. But, like, really, really distended, I had no clue what to do with her. So they sent her up to the mater at that stage and they did like a lumbar function. They're like they needed to take a liversy and they're like there's a 50-50 chance she'd die if we do the biopsy, but if she doesn't, if we don't do, she'll definitely die. So they did that and like there was very like. They were like, oh, like, prepare yourselves for the worst, like in the next few days.
Speaker 2:Did they drain all the fluid?
Speaker 1:Eventually. Yeah, it was scary to see, like how can she be carrying that much weight? Then a couple of months later you'd see her and she was absolutely skeleton. So they thought she wasn't going to make it out of that week. Really, they didn't have a diagnosis. Then they came up with the diagnosis of gamma-delta-hepatosplenic T-cell lymphoma, so a type of T-cell lymphoma in the liver and spleen and what is all over her body, and they treated her. Then it was actually her daughter's communion a couple of weeks after that and somehow she managed to be able to be out for the day, but then had to go back up to hospital.
Speaker 1:I think that's probably a mother's just doggedness, yeah but even if you've seen pictures of her around the day and seen pictures of her three days before, you'd be like jeez, she sick. But then she was like in ICU three days before, yeah, but then she's back up to hospital, then for months after that had to go through the whole pulmonary transplant and everything she went through isolation before COVID. She was pretty much given two weeks to live and she lived for nearly two years afterwards. So I suppose lucky in that sense, but also extremely unlucky that just out of nowhere look here here's the terminal diagnosis like very hard to for a young woman and she was she just had a baby as well, hadn't she?
Speaker 1:she had a baby the year before. Her son, yes, and she also had her daughter as well, my niece. So yeah, two young kids. I think the hardest part for her was thinking, like look, how am I going to tell these kids that her mummy won't be here, like in a few years, like won't be here in a few years, I won't be here to see them growing up? And I think that was what she could deal with any sort of physical pain, but it was the mental pain of not being able to be there for kids. I'm trying to make you emotional, thinking about your kids.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, that's the worst thing of not being there for them or not, watching them grow yeah, she was so strong and and the amount she went through and she wouldn't be complaining at all. But in my head I'd have a very sciencey brain. I've always just been like that. I would have been looking on PubMed, looking at her diagnosis and like, like she's going to die from this. She's not getting better. But obviously I won't say that to anyone because I want to be as hopeful as possible. And for a while she was doing well. She got one marrow transplant. She was kind of in remission but unfortunately it didn't last and came back with a vengeance and wasn't long. Then it was January 2020 when she passed away and how has that been for your family?
Speaker 1:it's obviously the worst thing that can ever happen. That's the worst thing I could imagine happening to my family, so I have to deal with it as well. I find this like for myself. Obviously I think about it every day. It's five years ago. I still think about it every day, but it's more so. Makes me sadder. Thinking about my other family members I have to like, especially her kids, thinking about obviously how tough it is for them and then, like I'd be so close to my mum she was so close to my mum seeing my mum have to go through that losing a child, I just think, is the like the worst thing that can ever happen to somebody is losing a kid.
Speaker 2:I think so so you're grieving for your sister, because obviously you loved your sister so much but, then you're watching your mum grieve for your sister, which is like just awful for you too, because my mum's so strong as well, and she never, like, showed a sadness to me, but like obviously, they were so close as such an awful thing to happen life's so tough, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you never know what you're going to be dealt, I know, yeah, just out of nowhere as well, like she was generally healthy, like it wasn't, she had like a really unhealthy lifestyle or anything. She had no medical conditions. Just out of nowhere really shit happens yeah, you're never going to know why, like you never, explain to the kids why how are her children now? Two absolutely lovely kids.
Speaker 1:You can see so much of her in them as well they're at the age now where one of them is doing their juniors and the other one is making their communion this year and you can see so much time has passed. But it's obviously so tough for them those formative years and not having their main person around it's obviously just so.
Speaker 2:So have a lot to do with them, though, do they?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, 100%, like they have. There's so many people around them that love them as well, that do a great job with them. That's fab Again, you're always just going to be missing that one person. You'll always be thinking about it, so it'll always be. It'll always be there. Like it's so formal of like losing a parent at a young age, obviously so, but it's what it is hand with it.
Speaker 2:Did you go for any grief counselling at all, or did your mother?
Speaker 1:I can't remember if my mother did, so I won't speak about her experience, but I probably should have went for a counselling a long time ago, during my teenage years, but I never did. And then, during the time Shadow was sick, I didn't either, even though I feel like I probably was grieving a bit before she died. Almost I feel like that's quite common in people who have terminal illness. I feel like you kind of reach the acceptance days almost before they die. Um, I did go to cancer in the year after. Um, not the not 2020, 2021.
Speaker 1:Also, it's locked down, so I just had to. You're sitting with your own thoughts for the full year as well. Like no social interaction. But yeah, I went to wasn't specifically grief counseling, but I went to therapy for the first time the year after. She's a psychotherapist but, to be honest, I did three sessions with her lovely woman but, like it just I just didn't really get what I thought I would get from it sometimes it's the wrong therapist for you, though yeah, that's what I was thinking as well as like maybe should I try something else.
Speaker 1:But, like, everything we just spoke is like these are all kind of things that like I've worked through in my head already and I feel like I'd be quite emotionally aware. So like I feel like I've read all the self-help, all the psychology books. So like everything that she was saying to me, I was like I read this, like in that self-help book there a couple of weeks ago. So but yeah, like I think, so I think, even talking to my friends and stuff that maybe in itself could be a form of therapy, of course, if I'm talking openly about it anyway. So I think I could have benefited a lot more if I did it a couple of years before I actually did it. Yeah, I think it's, for a lot of people it is really beneficial, but for me at the time, I just don't.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to be ask a leading question there now, james.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, no, I struggled massively with my metal head growing up, primarily related to my sexuality. I'm openly gay.
Speaker 2:Oh, I can see like even now, right, you say that and you bring your hands up to you and you kind of rub your hands which is kind of rub your hands, which is kind of a self-soothing thing. And it's interesting because obviously we spoke before the podcast about this and I would have thought so you're 27, you've grown up, and I suppose if we put in a vertical as a woke culture where people we would hope would be able to live their own lives in their own way, as long as you're not hurting anyone else, but you say that you struggled massively yeah, oh, 100% and why was that?
Speaker 1:yes, I came out when 2020 2021 four years ago even that term come out yeah, fuck sake, I know, why can't you just be yourself? I know, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2:like it has to be. This big like Like no straight person goes. I'm straight, I know. Yeah, I think it shouldn't have to be a thing, but unfortunately it is. But it is, yeah, it still is as well.
Speaker 1:But yeah, before that people were always like, oh, like. Did you only realise you were?
Speaker 2:gay recently.
Speaker 1:Why I'll tell you a story about how I came out of my mom in a while. But like they'll ask me, like when you first knew, I was like I first knew, since I was maybe seven or eight.
Speaker 2:Like looking back, I was like you just know most people, I think, you just know. Well, that's when you start fancying people, isn't it?
Speaker 1:But I remember. Do you remember the Page Tree girls?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, they're not still a thing, are they? I don't think so. I think we've come a long way since then. Sure, there's so much available online.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah but I remember I was with my best friend from growing up and I remember this page trigger. I remember he said something about like, oh, like. Does your willy stand up when you see them as in like, do they just have their boobs out and everything, and I literally gag. I was like no, even from that age, like seven or eight, you just know.
Speaker 2:Actually it's interesting because one of my friends he's gay he said to me I don't know. This was back in college days and I said something to him about boobs or something. He's like, oh like, just not a thing.
Speaker 1:Like you know just hate them. Yeah, and it's funny. Maybe people who are homophobic are like oh, it's a choice. It's most definitely not a choice. I tried my best for many years and there were plenty of pretty girls I can attest to that as well. Like I never would have been with guys or anything before coming out. I was always with girls from my college years and everything. Like I would have done my best to hide Did you find it hard to be with them.
Speaker 1:Oh, so hard? Yeah, Well, not hard, but like hard Okay. Yeah, no, it was really tough to be fair, and I'd have to just drink so much alcohol in order to be able to do it as well.
Speaker 2:Goodness me so once you go to college.
Speaker 1:Obviously there's such a hookup culture as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so every night out you'd be like I'd say they were harassing you because you're a really good looking lad.
Speaker 1:I don't know about that, but you'd be trying to shift as many girls as possible, getting the lad's approval. And then the cases where I'd probably just try to get as drunk as possible and be like did you get with anyone last night? Like no man, I was too drunk. I wanted to get with X, y and Z, but I just couldn't do it, so I could use alcohol to like hide it and were you having gay experiences during this time?
Speaker 1:no, not at all, were you? I didn't even consider it like really because I was so afraid if I did even like to be a couple of times on nights out or like a couple of guys might try to kiss me, like my straight friends might try to kiss me and I'd like push them away, like that?
Speaker 2:were they straight, though, or why were they trying to kiss you?
Speaker 1:yeah, who knows, there's a lot of that still not not with me, but like you see, a lot of it like they're just messing, or? It's hard to know okay, but again.
Speaker 2:Like you'd hear other people's experiences similar, that like straight lads, but like, obviously kind of like as well, too like yeah, um, but yeah, that took a long time during college and was it a case of, like you, you tried your best to be not gay yeah, it's like I literally tried to force myself to be attracted to women.
Speaker 1:Kissing women and stuff would have been fine, but like anything more was obviously so hard. You kind of just had to be at the right level of drunk to like you weren't able to think about it too much, but then, like you were in so drunk that you weren't able to do anything.
Speaker 2:Because, even so, even the thought of, say me say, trying to become attracted, trying to be attracted to even a man that I don't like, that I'm not attracted to, would be difficult, no, it's awful, like trying to force yourself to be attracted to someone Like you feel bad for them as well, because obviously you're not attracted to them.
Speaker 1:But there's so many marriages that are like that there's lots of men out there that are married to women that they're gay men, aren't they?
Speaker 1:and a lot of people put a blame on the gay man in terms of, oh, it's so selfish. Back then I wasn't considering it being selfish. I was considering I need to change, I need to be attracted to women. I'll be able to marry a woman and have kids with a woman, kind of thing. Like for some men. They're somehow able to do it and achieve it, but like it's always going to come out eventually down the line or else the marriage will be unhappy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:You'd just be like for both parties as well. It's just, it's a miserable existence to have to live like.
Speaker 2:Did you grow up in a religious household or?
Speaker 1:my mum would have been very religious, would have been theophobic, whether it be family, friends school, like all boys, catholic school making snide comments, and oh yeah. So you'd hear like if you do anything like remotely zesty is like a word people love to draw about these days, but like if you do anything at all, if you're friends with like a few girls, it'd just be like the word faggot would just be thrown about like that word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, honestly, I get my teeth itched for that word.
Speaker 1:Like I still hear it so often now, even as well. But yeah, obviously, like when you're hearing that as a young lad every day.
Speaker 2:And there's a negative connotation.
Speaker 1:yeah, it just really reinforces that internal shame, like it makes you hate yourself so much. Like, why am I like this, why am I like this? And did you ever have like when you were growing up? Did you have a friend of yours that you fancied or that all the hormones that I ate and stuff as well, yeah, I have to redirect them to poor, unassuming women instead. But, yeah, no, it's obviously uh, it's an awful thing to have to go through and I think for a lot of like obviously such high rates of male suicide in young people, and I do actually think that obviously not all of it, but like I think a large percentage is because of struggles with sexuality. And I have a couple of friends who are like working psychiatric hospice and they're like James, like the amount of married men that are in psych wards that are gay but won't tell anybody because it does literally eat away at your brain.
Speaker 1:And I was like to be honest, if I didn't come out, I wouldn't be here now like I would have really yeah, like I'd say from back then, like I probably would have rather been dead than people find out I was gay, which is so sad, like if somebody told me that now I'd be devastated for them Just the way it was, like it was and even like years before that obviously would have been so much harder, but everyone's story is individual as well. I know some people my age that might have had like an okay experience coming out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I'm coming out. Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm really. I feel so sad for the boy that you were growing up, because I I can only think about it as a mother of three sons and I would love to think that if any of them came out, or if any of them were gay, that they were just able to be gay yeah and not have this burden over them, that they needed to be different to the person that they actually were. And what was it like when you came out to your mother?
Speaker 1:There's so much that happened between that that changed my perspective on things Like seeing my sister be so sick for a couple of years and seeing her actually wanted to live so badly, and in my head I was like I don't care what happened to me. It's like seeing her attitude towards life and how, like her lust for life and everything, I was like I think it just might switch something in my brain. I was like, look like you can't go on like this. I was like you need to like life is so short. You need to just be your true self and be real to yourself.
Speaker 1:So after she so she passed away in 2020, that year, covid actually probably could have been one of the best things that ever happened to me, because it gave me so much time with my own thoughts and think about myself and what I actually needed and wanted. So I was actually doing my master's that year as well. So there's a lot going on with it, but like that was a good distraction then too. But then in 2021, my mom got really sick and I just remember I was in Trinity at the time. I was getting my bus home to my house, I was talking to her specialist and, uh, she was after having, like she got diagnosed a really rare form of a non-immune disease as well, so big genetic component there okay the doctor.
Speaker 1:She's on the phone with cardiologists and I was like, oh, like, is there a chance she could die? And I just remember being like, oh great, like the only other person that I'm really close to is gonna die too. I was like, where the fuck, where the fuck, do I go from here?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But she thankfully didn't. But she was at a hospital the next week and all that was in my head was like I can't let another person die without actually telling them who I am, or like being my true self. So I was like there's a couple of days she came out of hospital and I feel so bad looking back because I was being so off with her. It's all quieter and she just turned around one day. She's like did I do something? She was so upset. She's like did I just do something to upset you? Like why are you being like this?
Speaker 2:This is the third time you've had me crying now in this podcast, crying out loud.
Speaker 1:Thank God I'm not a big crier, otherwise I'd be in clothes as well. I think I got on mine a few. I was like oh, I have something to tell you. And so I sat her down and I was like I was like so scared, like terrified. It was like the fear of rejection was the biggest thing, I think, and I was just like I can't get my words out. And she was like she was panicking. She's like what is it? What is it? And I was like I guess it's like taking deep breaths. And she's like no, it's worse. I know I didn't actually say that. And then she's like what did she say? She's like did you get a girl pregnant? I was like no, I wish. And then the last one was she's like did you knock someone down with a car and drive away?
Speaker 2:She's guessing all these terrible things. I was like no.
Speaker 1:And then I was like I was going to head down in shame. I was like, oh, I'm gay. In terms of her, I couldn't have had a better reaction. She's like why didn't you just tell me? And then she was just so upset that I wasn't able to tell her oh my goodness. I did not expect this podcast to go this way you're like do you want to talk about being a letter therapist?
Speaker 2:oh my, goodness, yeah, it's just I'm putting myself in the position of you and of your mom, and then me with my own children. And it's just I'm putting myself in the position of you and of your mom and then me with my own children, and it's just like and the fact that you'd built it up to be this big, massive, awful thing in your head and it wasn't so I can feel it's like the minute I told her that was, I came out to two friends before that.
Speaker 1:The first one was like six months prior, my friend Laura. I just sent her. I was like in bed at night time I I sent it and then deleted it and sent it and deleted it and I sent it and then turned my phone off. It's this big, I have it on my phone. So sad but funny looking back now that I thought that she'd actually care. I sent this big, massive long. It was like five paragraphs long about like oh, and then at the end it's like oh, I'm actually gay. So she was the first person I told. But like, for me that was so big because it was like once I put it out there, I can't take it back. So I told her and then I told another friend five months later and then I told my mum. But once I told my mum, that was it.
Speaker 2:That was a game changer, like I was, like it's just wheels come off.
Speaker 1:I've never felt as light, obviously like struggled with a lot for a little while after that, but like once that happened I was like I just felt so free and everything after that and do you still struggle with it a bit?
Speaker 1:99%, but like happy out. It might be the odd time where I'd have a little like moment where, like somebody makes a comment around me that doesn't know I'm gay, or like talks about gay people in a negative way around me, not knowing that I'm gay, that I'm like, oh for fuck's sake. But, um, once I came out to my mom there was a few other people that like I should look my way there is afraid that like of their reactions but, and there probably are like a few relationships that I don't really have anymore because of it, but are also like way more that I'm just so close like I never had. I feel like a proper, like deep friendship or like relationship with a family member beforehand, because I just always held back so much, whereas, like anybody who talks to me now is like jeez, like you're so open and everything you talk about anything now, which I think is obviously really important and have you had any nice relationships since you came out?
Speaker 1:I'm actually in a three and a half year relationship now which plays oh jeez. So you sheer like a lesbian, I know so yeah, no, I met my partner like three months after I came out.
Speaker 2:So we've been together since yeah. Okay, and is he lovely.
Speaker 1:He is yeah.
Speaker 2:And is he in the game that you're in, as in the?
Speaker 1:athletic. I thought you meant being gay. I was like I hope so.
Speaker 2:No, he's actually the reverse yeah.
Speaker 1:Is he in athletic? No, he's completely different. Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:And can I ask you what it was like to be gay in the type of job that you're in? So obviously it's very bro science, very. You know the athletic physio. You're in the gym, you're working out and one would think that it's quite hetero-dominated. Maybe that I hate the word toxic masculinity but you know, maybe a bit of that. And I suppose you're probably in an environment where maybe gay jokes are just being lobbed around all the time. Yeah, so I'm sure that didn't help.
Speaker 1:No, I think there is like it's so again multifactorial. There's so many things growing up that just didn't help whatsoever, but like the change room environment, like I stopped playing sport young enough and I think a big part the reason was the change room environment and how homophobic it was, because it is in Ireland, the locker room environments are so homophobic.
Speaker 2:Can you tell me what that means?
Speaker 1:Because, just to give an example of the homophobia that goes on in locker rooms, yeah, so say, for example, during my course I would work with a lot, lot of like male, like guy teams and stuff, and like you'd have the bed like set up in the locker room but like every couple of minutes you'd hear like gay slurs thrown around like oh man, you're some faggot, like that kind of thing. Like it might not even be from people who are actually dislike gay people, but like it's just such to say it, and like they're like oh, there's nobody gay around, that's fine, but they don't know who is gay and who isn't. And like I obviously wasn't out at the time when I was working on any of these teams. In fairness, it's probably part of the reason why I don't work with teams as much and, in fairness, there are so many teams now that I think would be perfectly fine to work with and I'd have to go back and work with them.
Speaker 1:But, like at the time when I was uncomfortable with myself, I was like I need to take myself out of this environment because if I don't, it's just not helping me.
Speaker 2:It's making it harder for me to accept who I am and do you think that, in that male dominated environment as well, where you probably might have to work on a man in terms of touching them and that and they knew you were gay that they would be negative towards you because of that, would that be a fear of yours, or do you think people are way more open minded?
Speaker 1:I'd hope not for the majority case, especially anyone who's remotely educated, like it's not an issue If you're a professional like why would you care?
Speaker 2:When.
Speaker 1:I go to a GP.
Speaker 2:I don't think about their fucking sexual orientation.
Speaker 1:So I think that'd be fairly idiotic. But I do remember, before I came out, I was living with somebody and he said something about like if I went to a gay physio, my friends would rip the piss out of me, or something like that. I just remember in my head being like oh lord, that's just another thing I have to worry about now. But no, to be fair, it's not something I really consider like. Any clients I've had are always and that, not that like I tell my clients my sexual orientation. But I obviously have spoken about it online too. So I'm like but again, if somebody is homophobic, I could already watch this client anyway.
Speaker 2:So of course, tell me about your online. Someone accused you of gaybaiting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gaybaiting, yeah. So again, like I initially just made TikTok to start last year just for sharing professional content, so in my Instagram until last year was just injury rehab and stuff like that, like injury rehab and like stuff. Yeah, like tips and tricks for like building strength around your knee and things like that. And then I did a Q&A that somebody asked the question. And then I did a Q&A that somebody asked a question. It was like tips for a gay man with anxiety going to the gym because he feels uncomfortable and reminds him of the locker room environment growing up and he feels like it's like a homophobic environment. So I just did a video reply to that and posted it on TikTok. I posted it on my Instagram stories Nobody said anything on my Instagram stories and then posted it to TikTok. It's a different world on TikTok.
Speaker 2:It is freaking wild. It on TikTok. It is freaking wild, it's terrifying.
Speaker 1:It's all the anonymous accounts I know and the comments they make oh wild. They're a gas, they've no filter you don't see half the comments either, because then you know yourself you have to review as well but then I posted that and there was a primarily a positive reaction to it.
Speaker 1:But, like, nobody knew at that stage that I was gay, apart from my friends, like not that I kept it hidden, but I just didn't speak about it online and there's so many comments accusing me of gaybaiting, being like, oh, like, why, why are you doing this? Like you're clearly not gay and stuff so what's gaybaiting?
Speaker 1:straight men who try to get the attention of like gay men for extra followers. Like a straight man like taking his top off pretending to be gay to try and get like more reaction to their video from gay men. I know a few of them oh yeah, 100%, there are plenty of them so you got accused of that so I just did a video response.
Speaker 1:Then I was like I remember being so nervous, it was like coming out all over again because I was like you're putting yourself out on this platform that you're like you don't know what the response is going to, did a video response to that question, then just replied to it being like well, like, just so you know, I actually am gay, not that like I need to talk about or explain it, but like, and then I just talked about a little bit after that and then the response to that was massive I'd say so like the fact that that got a couple hundred thousand views me literally just saying that I'm gay obviously just shows like what a surprise it is to see like somebody that is into like what I'm into, like just being openly gay.
Speaker 1:There is still like so many gay people I know that might be openly gay but to be to still have like embarrassment and shame associated with it. So I think for myself that was actually therapeutic in a way, to be like fucking, like detach everything, just be like. Look, I don't give a fuck if you don't like it then that's fine.
Speaker 1:So I did like a bit of a series then after that, just talking about different aspects of being gay and common struggles and stuff like that and, as I was saying, the amount of straight men from like rural Ireland that play that, play gar, that play sports, that said, to have girlfriends and like your video helps so much. But like I'm in the closet and I feel like I'll never be able to come out because my family, my dad, my parents are so homophobic. I just want to like be normal, that whole like be normal thing.
Speaker 2:What's that eh?
Speaker 1:Yeah, who the fuck is normal?
Speaker 2:No, I'm not normal anyway.
Speaker 1:Nobody is. And then Ireland, but again, it's just society, I think yeah, god, I'm really glad that we had this conversation yeah, I think it'll really help people hopefully you made me cry three times, you booger that's impressive.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you probably don't say my girls in the past one thing I wanted to ask you that I was interested about that. I heard you talking on a podcast before. Do you do some teaching, do you?
Speaker 1:I used to do a lot of teaching, so I worked in Trinity for a while Do you cut up cadavers Because I was like jeez, I didn't realise that sounds so aggressive. But like it interests me, yeah, so I did my master's in sport and exercise medicine in Trinity and then I finished up there. I stayed on for it was like six months, so I taught cadaveric anatomy, so dissections to like med students and physio students and stuff.
Speaker 2:What's that like?
Speaker 1:It's strange at the start.
Speaker 2:Explain to people what cadaver is, in case they don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's basically somebody who has donated. After they've passed away, they've have their names. We call them by their names. It's respectful. They all have their names beside them. And then how they died.
Speaker 2:Are a lot of them older people, so most of them are older.
Speaker 1:I remember there was one woman who was in her early 30s and I was like, oh, I brought flashbacks.
Speaker 2:I was like oh that that's my main.
Speaker 1:I have been dark in this at all, but it's my main. Co-mechanism is dark humour. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2:It's a good way to. It's a good way to get over bad experiences.
Speaker 1:I love making people feel uncomfortable as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you haven't shown that bold side, have you?
Speaker 1:No, I haven't, You've been very polite.
Speaker 2:So what's it like to cut up a cadaver? Is it an awful smell?
Speaker 1:The formaldehyde, the formaldehyde yeah, like it is. It's a strong smell. I remember you asked me about my partner, like one of our, like our third date. He met me like outside the cadaver.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm so sorry, and he still took you on.
Speaker 1:I must have about it that I'm like it kind of just puts life in respect, but as well, at the end of the day we're all literally going to end up like this. So it's like again, it just makes life seem so short, but like we're literally just we're all just this at the end of the day for me, like actually I really enjoyed, like I wouldn't do it as a career, but like I did really enjoy doing it, and I think it put things into perspective for me a little bit as well.
Speaker 2:And do they have an endless supply of cadavers? I can't imagine a lot of people want to be flat in front of people. No, I think it changes every year.
Speaker 1:I think every year there's 12 new.
Speaker 2:So they're worked on by all the med students, all the physios or whomever needs to be taught in that way.
Speaker 1:So I think all the likes of Trinity or CSI away. So I think all the likes of Trinity or CSI, I assume, like Limerick and Cork, I assume they all have cadaver labs.
Speaker 2:And are these people? How do they preserve the bodies? I know like they put them in formaldehyde, but then they're not like floating in formaldehyde.
Speaker 1:No, they're just on tables. I think they're pumped with formaldehyde I, whatever amount of time it is. But obviously like you dissect different. So like you might, week one you might dissect like from the shoulder down to the elbow, and then week two might be here to here and then week three might be there to there so he's gone shoulder to elbow, elbow to wrist, wrist to fingers.
Speaker 2:There for anyone that's only listening but, if someone's dying from cancer and then organs are affected by cancer, then how is it? And then organs are affected by cancer, then how are you able to show what the organ should look like?
Speaker 1:Or is that strange?
Speaker 2:Is that a weird thing to do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's funny because you'd see like different bodies. You'll see like, say, for women, you might see like there's different, like if someone had like metastatic breast cancer. You might see like on their groin, where like lymph nodes are, you might see like big lumps and where they had tumors or where the cancer has spread to.
Speaker 1:So I could see different variations on different people's body parts, but even seeing those people have different muscle attachments, not everyone's anatomy is the same, and realizing that is obviously really important too. We're all just so individual. At the end of the day, and being a cadaver dissector.
Speaker 2:Do you think that it's something that you would like to do, as in donate your own body to science because you see the importance of it, or would you be? It's something that you would like to do, as in donate your own body to science because you see the importance of it, or would you be?
Speaker 1:That's a tricky question. I remember there was one guy, I think he was meant to be a med student and I think he got kicked out of the course because he took a selfie and put it on Twitter. Imagine being smart enough to get into medicine but then stupid enough to do something like that.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh Crazy. It's quite disrespectful to the person. So disrespectful, yeah, but to the family and stuff as well, it's awful.
Speaker 1:Would I donate my body to cadaver lab? I actually don't know. Some people asked me before. I always said I'd be cremated, but I don't know. Potentially I'm not going to be there anymore, so I might as well get some use out of my body.
Speaker 2:So I'd like the idea from a philanthropic perspective and the fact that it would be teaching the future generations of doctors and physios or whoever needs to. But then I don't really like the idea of just being on display like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because everything is dissected as well. So you'd have to be very comfortable with it, I think.
Speaker 2:My brother when he was doing medicine. He said one of the professors of medicine. His wife donated her body. Now her husband had the professors of medicine. His wife donated her body. Neither her husband had died years previously, but his wife had donated her body. So they were dissecting her body or something like that. So yeah, it's interesting. I think it takes a strong-minded individual to decide that, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does. I don't think I can donate my organs because I have colitis. I don't think I'm able to. I can't donate blood, so I assume I won't be able to donate my organs.
Speaker 2:Okay, but I would do that if I could. Yeah, yeah, okay, interesting James, I have to ask you my two burning questions now yes. What advice would you give young people today?
Speaker 1:I would say always have the uncomfortable conversations. I think there's no benefit to holding in all those negative emotions. So if there is something that's bothering you for an extended period of time, put it out there, talk about it with somebody, whether that's a partner, whether it's a parent, whether it's a sibling, whether it's your boss, whether, like somebody is doing something that's really aggravating to you. Those microaggressions add up so much over time and will destroy whatever relationship it is or your relationship with yourself. So I think it always happens in uncomfortable conversations. Then maybe one related to health as well, is like prioritise your health but don't obsess over it, because I think with social media and everything now there is such an obsession around health. You have to be perfect all the time. So I think those two maybe and what's the meaning of life?
Speaker 1:It's a very deep question, I'd say, to love and to be loved. So to have people around you that you actually depend on, that you genuinely love you'd actually take a bullet for but also to have people that depend on you as well and people that love you. Because at the end of the day, like you see how short life is the only thing you think about at the end of the day, like you see how short life is the only thing you think about at the end of the day is the people closest to you. You don't think about the money, the jobs, the cars, like relationships at the end of the day. So I think if you have a few people that you can depend on and they depend or like a close friend, then I think that's as close as I can think of as a meaning for life.
Speaker 2:James, this has been an absolutely lovely conversation. I'm so happy that you come into my life and you're sitting there in front of me. I really, really enjoyed today, I have to say we can thank Eilis for that.
Speaker 1:We will thank Eilis.
Speaker 2:I must give on to her because I sent her a text before I was coming up. I said listen, I know it's like five minutes into you, but like is there anything burning that you think I should ask him? But she didn't reply. She's obviously she goes. Can I text you later? So I'm going to tell her there was no need. We got off to a flying start and we just kept going thank you, thanks so much.
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