The Laura Dowling Experience

From Magazine Editor to Bestselling Author: Vicki Notaro's Unapologetic Journey

• Laura Dowling • Episode 123

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Vicki Notaro shares her journey from leading magazine editor to successful novelist with two published books and a third on the way. She discusses how she always knew she wanted to be childless by choice and normalizing this decision for women.

• Moving from journalism to fiction writing after experiencing burnout in the publishing industry
• Finding medication helpful for managing anxiety and prioritizing mental health
• Being offered a publishing deal from Penguin at the perfect moment after leaving her job
• Drawing inspiration from growing up as an only child and her fascination with friendship dynamics
• Creating characters in her novels who reflect aspects of her personality and experiences
• Exploring the theme of being childless by choice in her debut novel "Reality Check"
• Finding inspiration from authors like Marion Keys, Judy Blume, and Jackie Collins
• How her second novel "Long Story" explores the complexities of long-term friendships
• Valuing real connection over constant social media engagement

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Speaker 1:

So can we talk a little bit about your decision to be childless by choice? I think that there's a lot of women coming up speaking about that and it's an interesting topic.

Speaker 2:

It's something that I've always been aware of, since I was maybe 13 or 14. I think most women want to be mothers. I realized very early on that I didn't. How did you know at that stage? In reality, check Portia, the main character, describes it as she knew she didn't want to be a mother. In the same way she knew the sky is blue. So is Portia, you. No, portia's story is my worst nightmare. So her long-term partner, who they've always agreed to be child-free by choice. He tells her one day that he's changed his mind. So she has to decide whether to go along with what he wants or to forge her own new scary path.

Speaker 2:

You know, I didn't necessarily mean for that to be the topic of my debut novel, because it always invites controversy. And why do you think that A lot of people take it as an insult? Because they think that you're looking at them and their children and saying, oh, that's not for me. But that's never been the case. I have so much respect and admiration and I think the reason I've always wanted to talk about not wanting to be a mother is because I wanted to normalize it in some way.

Speaker 1:

Welcome back to the Laura Downing Experience podcast, where each week, I bring you insightful and inspiring guests that will open your mind and empower your life. Today's guest is the author and journalist Vicky Notaro. Once a leading magazine editor, vicky has now turned her focus to fiction with her second novel recently published. We spoke about her journey from journalism to authorship, what it means to be childless by choice, and how growing up as an only child has shaped her perspective. Before we get into today's episode, I would love to ask you for a little favour. If you like this podcast and I know so many of you do you could really help me out by giving it a nice rating, sharing it with your friends and subscribing to the podcast. It may not seem like a big deal, but actually this really helps to keep the podcast high up in the charts, and that means that I can keep bringing you brilliant guests who are insightful, inspiring and full of wisdom that we can all learn from. Thanks a million. Now let's get to it. Glow from the inside out with my Fabu Skin, hair and Nails Glow, which blends 12 active ingredients, including reishi, mushroom, amino acids, vitamins and minerals, to support collagen production and skin, hair and nail health on a cellular level. See the amazing before and after pictures of fuller, thicker hair, radiant, glowing skin and longer, stronger nails on fabiwellnesscom, Available on fabiwellnesscom and in pharmacies and health food stores nationwide. This episode was produced by podcottseditingcom. Check them out at podcottseditingcom. Tell them Laura Dowling sent you and they might even do your first podcast free of charge.

Speaker 1:

So, vicky, we got over the fact that you can't count. What did I say? One, two, three, five, seven. Yeah, we were doing the sound check and Vicky skipped. We got over the fact that you can't count. What did I say? One, two, three, five, seven. Yeah, we were doing the sound check and Vicky skipped a couple of numbers. I'm a word person, ok, not numbers you are, which is why we are here today.

Speaker 2:

Yes, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm very excited. Your second book yes, long Story is out now, and I'm absolutely thrilled. It's a long-held dream come true. I've spent the past year pinching myself since my first novel came out. So then to have the second one come out a year later is just unbelievable. And I've just finished my third. Because you have to keep the train going, don't you? You got it, yeah. Well, some people don't. Some people like to kind of regroup in between, but this is what I do full-time now. I do this on my podcast, and I'm very lucky to do that, and I know it's a privilege, but I also like to work and I always have ideas, so I might as well sit down and write them.

Speaker 1:

Now, your first book was the best, so are you under pressure? I'm feeling the pressure just entirely for myself.

Speaker 2:

You know I'm the one that heaps the pressure on and I think that comes from my past career as the managing director of a publishing company, where you're constantly worrying about numbers. But yeah, I mean I've had amazing support. I think when it's your debut, everyone that you've ever met buys it out of support. You know, like your primary skill teacher and all that.

Speaker 2:

When it's your second one only a year later. You know it's a lot to ask of people to buy another book, but they're very good if I do say so myself and they're worth it. They're great summer reads, so, yeah, and they're worth it. They're great summer reads, so, yeah, I hope people buy Long Story and have you got Audible on it?

Speaker 2:

or have you done that? Yeah, it's available in every format you can imagine Audible. You can borrow. Box it from the library. Did you know that authors make money when you take a book out of the library?

Speaker 1:

I did not know that a small amount but it adds up.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so the libraries. It's on Kindle. It's, yeah, in every format. Did you record the audio? No, I'm not an actress. You need an actress. Marion Keys does hers, but that's because she's Marion Keys. I know and everyone loves the sound of her voice, yeah, the sweetest voice going. Most books will be recorded by an actor, so mine is an amazing girl called Stephanie Dufresne, and I think she's Irish-American so she can do all the accents, because there's both in my books.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, because, actually, because when I listen to Audible sometimes and it's not done well, it can feel a bit strange, particularly if a female is impersonating a male or the vice versa.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, stephanie's brilliant. She did reality check as well and now she's done long story and people actually comment and compliment her all the time when they're leaving reviews and stuff. They say that she's amazing. So I'm personally not an audiobook girly. I'm more of a real book girl. I like a bit of Kindle. Sometimes I'm an audiobook.

Speaker 1:

Are you an audiobook gal? Only because I don't have the time to sit down and read, which is not me saying, oh, this is brilliant, I don't have the time to sit down and read. Cheers with audio. Yeah, like I remember listening to Sinead O'Connor's book her biography and I was in the kitchen cooking the dinner and stuff and that was great and sometimes I just like pop in something when I go into bed at night. But sometimes I find that you listen less or you you don't take as much in when you're listening to it as opposed to when you're sitting down reading it.

Speaker 2:

I think for a story. You just prefer to read it with my eyes, but I could probably do nonfiction, because it's like a podcast, really, isn't it? But yeah, I mean, the people who love audiobooks really love them, and it's a booming market it is. Yes, it's brilliant to be with a publisher like Penguin who does everything for you. Like that. The more formats, the more availability, the better.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and do you do any? So have you had your massive launch yet, or when is it? When this comes?

Speaker 2:

out I will have. Okay. Yes, for the second one, I was like, oh, it's only a year after the first, I'll be a bit more relaxed about it. Absolutely not. No, absolutely not, okay. But I think it's really important to celebrate the wins. Yeah, I'm someone who believes in celebrating every birthday, every brilliant thing that happens to you, because none of us know. You know where we're going to be this time next year, so I'll keep using that as an excuse to have parties for as long as I live.

Speaker 1:

I like that style, so how did you get into writing in the first place?

Speaker 2:

Well, I used to be the editor of Stellar magazine, which is sadly no longer with us in print, and I was the MD of the group. I know you had Bianca Lykes on. I was the MD of the group that published TV Now and VIP as well as Stellar, and I started there when I was 22 years old working on Kiss magazine, which was the Irish teenage girls mag. Was that like the?

Speaker 1:

Irish version of More.

Speaker 2:

Less than Sugar.

Speaker 1:

More was a bit sexier, More was I remember that. Was it not Position of the Fortnight? Originally it was Week and then it went to Fortnight Right, I remember that was my sexier.

Speaker 2:

It was very sexy. Yeah, I used to love magazines. So I mean, I always wanted to be a writer. I was always writing from when I was a very small child. I wrote a novel when I was 11. Like I'd love to get my hands on it because I'd say it's dreadful, but I was always scribbling. I wanted to be a writer, so I studied English literature and film studies in college and then my last year of college this is classic me I wasn't busy enough.

Speaker 2:

I only had like six hours of lectures a week. So I was like I'm going to get myself a little job. So I just started applying for loads of jobs and one of them I loved magazines, and one of them happened to be I wrote to Kiss magazine and said I'll do anything. I'll come work for the summer and then longer if you'll have me, and I'll make the tea and I'll write the features and I'll do whatever you want. So they obviously saw something in this very spunky 22 year old with like obviously loads of confidence. I don't know where that's gone. And yeah, I got the job and they kept me on after the summer and then a couple years later I got promoted to deputy editor, as is the way in Ireland. Everything is tiny, so you know, you kind of race up the ladder and then, by the time I mean you bring yourself down a bit there, though.

Speaker 2:

Are you saying that? I mean, put it way my counterpart. In an English magazine there would have been probably 20 people between my original position and deputy editor. Ok, so Ireland, there's small teams, even smaller now in media. Yeah, I worked really hard. I was a real yes person I still am, I guess but it was so fun. It was the funnest. Those four years I spent at Kiss magazine were the most fun I've ever had at work. It was brilliant. I was interviewing pop stars, I was getting free makeup to test, I was writing about virginity and sex and periods and boys and kissing and friendship, and it's really stood to me. All of those things now are in all of my novels.

Speaker 1:

You're actually writing about all that in your novels now too. And what made you make the change from writing for a magazine? How old are you now, Vicky?

Speaker 2:

I'm nearly 40. I'll be 40 in January. Yes, yeah, I'm on the cusp of 40. So I mean I was in Kiss for four years. I went freelance. Then I went into the Irish Independent, which was a baptism of fire. I was doing like two magazines a week at one point.

Speaker 1:

And this is what I mean by flying up the ladder and with that little tamer in the legs of Kiss, because you weren't writing about periods and that, no it was much more intense. Kids was chill.

Speaker 2:

I liked writing about periods. I had a monthly column called period drama.

Speaker 1:

No, but I meant tamer by tamer subject matter no, newspapers are wild, are they Okay?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I was writing about anything and everything. At one point I was editing a fitness magazine, health magazine, then I was doing like an entertainment and culture magazine, so it was all go. It was really busy, really stressful, so I kind of burnt myself out. By the time I was 27, 28.

Speaker 1:

And what does burnout look like? Because we hear the word burnout. But what did that?

Speaker 2:

look like for you. I mean, I didn't know it was burnout for a long time I think I was just very stressed, like inordinately stressed, and I was so young so I was trying far the youngest person doing it in there at the time. So again I was putting myself under a lot of pressure to scale the ranks and perform but also have like a normal 20 something experience. So for me it kind of manifested as anxiety, just panic attacks and just this feeling of complete and utter exhaustion and fatigue.

Speaker 1:

And had you ever had anxiety prior to that? Like, would there be underlying anxiety?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I was a pretty anxious child yeah, I'm an only child I used to think our house was getting broken into every night when I was in bed, like I was just always. I've always been a bit of a scaredy cat. Okay, don't like horror films, don't like surprises. So, yeah, I had been, and I've always been, quite highly strong and I've always been quite sensitive. So in a way that really doesn't tie in with my ambitious side, because it makes me go too fast and I think what me?

Speaker 2:

My burnout at that point was very much. Just, I was trying to be everything to everyone and be the very best at it. All, okay. So then I went freelance again, which I thought would be easier, because I thought you know, you'll be your own boss, you're taking your career into your own hands. But then I had 20 editors to please and all day, every day, I had this pressure to be coming up with ideas, pitching them, seeing them through, and you find yourself kind of offering to write about things you don't even want to, just to get the work. That kind of was when my anxiety got very bad. So that was when I went to the doctor and said help, and I've been on medication for it ever since and it's been a godsend. Honestly, it's been amazing. It's a long time to be on it, I know, but we don't really see any issue with it. My doctor and I and she's amazing she's we don't really see any issue with it my doctor and I and she's amazing, she's kind of listened to me from day one.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think of it as a point of view and I know a lot of health care professionals would be that if you're on it and it's keeping you well, yeah and you're happy, that's it. And why would you come off it? A lot of people have there's still that kind of stigma about being on esterized antidepressants, whatever, but and they want to come off it. You need to come off it so slow, I know, like over months and months and months, and people were coming off it too quickly as well. But yeah, no, I'm of the frame of mind that if you're on it and it's doing you well and no harm and you feel great, I feel incredibly well and, yeah, I don't really see the need.

Speaker 2:

I know some people go on them and feel like numbed out or like my, more like myself.

Speaker 1:

It can affect libido and orgasm, which a lot of people would say, over here good to know good to know.

Speaker 2:

Good to know, yeah, no, not at all. Okay, great, I think I'm very lucky. My experience of it. But I also want people to know you know I'm not pushing them on anyone, but I want people to know that they're there and they can be there in the long term if you need them. And you know my doctor and I have a constant dialogue about it and she's amazing. She really helped me. You know, I was struggling a couple years ago with it's not PCOS, because I don't have the markers, but I was having lots of cysts and a lot of pain and dysmenorrhea and she listened to me, got me into a surgeon, got me looked at, got the cystectomy done, put me on the coil and I'm feeling even better since that.

Speaker 1:

So explain what dysmenorrhea is, because people may not know what that term is. So it's essentially very painful periods.

Speaker 2:

I was never like if this is TMI, but I was never a very heavy bleeder. But I would have extreme pain and fatigue to the point where I'd be completely bed bound. I'm very low mood for a couple of days around my period.

Speaker 1:

And was this since you got your period, or was it like?

Speaker 2:

worse. As I got older, In my 30s, it got significantly worse. Okay, so yeah, she just said, look, we can't really see anything on ultrasound. You know that you go in and you get the external, the internal ultrasounds. And the doctor said, look, would you like to have a laparoscopy, which is keyhole surgery? They go in and have a poke around. They were looking for endometriosis but didn't think that I had an endo because I wasn't heavy bleeding. They found cysts. They removed them. The treatment for PMDD slash dysmenorrhea is hormonal. It's often the coil, the marina. So that's been in for two and a half years now and I feel fantastic on it.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned PMDD. That's like the really low mood, luxury in moods coming up to your period.

Speaker 2:

Did you have that? Yes, I had extremely low moods for maybe two or three days a month and then I'd snap back to normal. It was bizarre, but I think a lot of it was to do with the level of fatigue and pain, because of course that's going to make you have low mood. If you're feeling absolutely rubbish and you're busy, you can't just the world doesn't stop just because you're not feeling well. And at that point I would have had a very high pressure job managing director of a publishing company, running events like the VIP Style Awards, like big jobs.

Speaker 1:

Publishing companies now, like a lot of the money that they make is from those events, as opposed to actually the publications. Now, because everything's online, that's it. Yeah, a lot of it is through, and even with advertising, it's difficult to get those advertisements, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It's easier to get sponsorship for an event and then what publishing has going for it is that they also have magazines and websites and social media. They have that presence to spread the word about a brand. Okay.

Speaker 1:

It's the omnipresence of it as opposed to yeah, so interesting, it's a 360 experience. It is, it is and it's hard work, because I see the girls now working away Girls. I see the girls now working away girls and men, women and men. Yeah, why do we call?

Speaker 2:

why do we call grown women, girls and we don't call grown men boys.

Speaker 1:

I do okay. Well, I'm gonna do that now too. The girlies and the boys, yeah, no, you see them working and they are everywhere.

Speaker 2:

It's hard, you know, in media really small teams, really hard work, like some of my best friends still work in these places and are responsible for these huge events. And yeah, it's a lot. It is a lot. And for me, when you know I was always like I said, I always wanted to be a writer. I didn't necessarily want to be an events organizer or even working in the business side of magazines. I found quite difficult. So when it became obvious to me that I just wanted to write, I was like, right, I'm not really qualified to do anything else.

Speaker 2:

I've spent from 22 to 38 in the magazine industry. The magazine industry isn't what it used to be, so you know, what else can I do? And I kind of tinkered with the idea of going into communications or marketing or business, like into helping companies form a strategy, calm strategy, or something like that. Yeah, put my kind of skill set to good use. And then I thought about maybe editing books. But before I kind of got the chance, I just felt like I was done and I needed to leave and make the break, very amicably make the break and then see what was next. And as soon as I handed in my notice, I got an email from Penguin with the subject line you writing fiction and did they?

Speaker 1:

know? Did they know you'd had it in?

Speaker 2:

your notice. No, okay, now I had been running my mouth about wanting to write it. I'd been telling every dog in the street Exactly that I had this great idea for a book. You know, it was a friend of a friend said it to me, the publisher. But it was just. The timing was wild and writing a book was always something that I wanted to do. Like I said, since I was a child, I'd been scribbling. It felt extremely serendipitous and like the universe was telling me I don't really believe in all that airy fairy stuff, but at the same time, sometimes in life you just go wow, that couldn't have come at a better time.

Speaker 1:

And did you do any creative writing courses ever, or just?

Speaker 2:

OK, no, no, I was just always writing. I was writing songs as a child, terrible songs, poems, like I was if I was an only child. So you'd likely find me either with my nose in a book or with a pen and paper just scribbling.

Speaker 1:

Really well in school did they nurture that kind of artistic side of teachers that did always needed to?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I had a couple of amazing teachers, even a primary level, who did Miss Convoy and Miss Higgins, and then in secondary school, my English teacher. She's still a friend, I love her, I love you, ro Aiken. She really nurtured that side of me, so that's why I did English in college. But it was a very different experience. Yeah, it was in Trinity big, impersonal, full of strange people, because you know, I came from a very normal non-feed-paying school, and then I was thrust into this world of of trainers.

Speaker 1:

It is like Sally Rooney novels, but not, you know, I wasn't one of the characters.

Speaker 2:

I went to Trinity too.

Speaker 1:

I did pharmacy there, but I it's totally different than the arts because my my husband was down in in the arts block doing like two lectures a week and meanwhile I was stuck up in science block doing 40 hours a week.

Speaker 2:

But I would have preferred that because I do like the work. You know I hated it. I used to commute in from Tallade. The Lewis was brand new, so I'd come in in the morning if I had an early lecture and then, instead of hanging around having my Sally Rooney experience, I'd get the Lewis home and then come back at like four o'clock for my next lecture. So I wasn't really getting that college experience in the way that you imagine, you dream of. So that's why, when I was 22, I was like feck, this, I'm going to try and get a job. And credit to Michael O'Doherty, the owner of VIP. He let me go to my lectures and then come back to work. I wrote my thesis at my desk. I've always been quite fast at writing as well, which is a credit.

Speaker 1:

Well, clearly two books now under your belt and only a year later under your belt and only a year later. Do you worry about, or do you like, the whole AI and chat, tbt and all of that kind of taking over?

Speaker 2:

No, because it doesn't have a personality. Now I do worry about it stealing everyone's books.

Speaker 1:

Well, I was looking at something online. Yeah, some lady, some girl said I think she's Irish and she says so. It scraped loads of books.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it scraped mine, which, to be honest, I was quite thrilled. No, I wasn't thrilled. How do you know it scraped it? How do you know? There's a database that you can put your name or your title in and it tells you it was a meta AI program and I think I would have felt left out if I wasn't in it because everyone else was.

Speaker 1:

You know, but no, it's terrible stuff like that question in to chat gbt because it has all of these romantic novels in its database. It gives you an answer like a female romantic novelist would or something like in some. In some ways it's just. I was just. I've been listening to lots of stuff about ai.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's very. Yeah, my husband works in tech. He works in that field ai and cloud and all of that sort of thing and he's of the opinion that it can't replicate literature is a silly word, but, like you know, real human emotion.

Speaker 1:

And I suppose you've come up with the idea.

Speaker 2:

Totally and you have to see it through. Seeing it through for 100,000 words is hard as bar. You have to always go back over and add in more emotion because you can get caught up with the plot and the pace and telling the story. So for me, me I always have to get the story out and then go back and add in, like the flashbacks and the sex scenes and the, the kind of the, the warmth and the humanity, I guess, is what it really is.

Speaker 1:

So how long does it take you to do that then? Because writing a book, I suppose you write it and then you go back over it. You could spend years perfecting it and making sure every word counts.

Speaker 2:

And some people do. But that's never been my style. Even in magazines I was never one to like pour over every syllable to make sure it was perfect. It's never going to be perfect For me. I've just finished a draft of my third novel. I've been working on that kind of mulling around the idea in my head since October this is June, so that'll tell you. So it's at the point now where it's ready for my editor to send me her notes.

Speaker 1:

So you've written two books now. Has the editor ever sent it back to you and gone? Listen like big red lines through stuff? No, thank God.

Speaker 2:

I mean, they can attribute a lot of notes, a lot, and often it sounds scarier than it actually is. So you'll see the notes and go God, what's she after saying about this? For me, in my experience, it's been adding, not taking away. To me, I enjoy that. I'm a nerd, so I enjoy that process because I know that they're professionals and everything that they say is going to make the novel better and more easy to read, because what you never want is your reader questioning something or going. You know, I thought she said it was Tuesday, or I thought she said she was 36. Why is she saying she's 39 now? That editing process is so important, so important. Oh my god. I'm blessed with my editors, so it's a big process. It really is, and Penguin are obviously a huge international brand, so they're very thorough.

Speaker 1:

Were you able to charge them a lot more now for your advance this time around than the last time I haven't.

Speaker 2:

You know, we'd want to be a number one bestseller before we can do that. So come on, girlies, girlies.

Speaker 1:

Okay, let's get it going. So can we talk a little bit about your decision to be childless by choice? That's an interesting part of your story, vicky, and I think that there's a lot of women now coming up speaking about that and it's an interesting topic.

Speaker 2:

It absolutely is interesting. It's something that I've always been aware of, since I was maybe 13 or 14, that I was unusual about. I think most women want to be mothers and I think I realized very early on, even younger than my teens, that I didn't.

Speaker 1:

How did you know at that stage? Were you just not? You didn't like coo over babies, or you didn't.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I didn't. I've never been somebody. I mean, I like babies, they're cute, but I've never been somebody that's felt maternal. Not for long term use For me, I think. In reality check.

Speaker 2:

Portia the main character, describes it as she knew she didn't want to be a mother. In the same way she knew the sky is blue. She just knew. So is Portia you. No, portia is far more glamorous than me. All of my characters have elements of me. If anything, I'm more like the gay lads than the straight women. I like that, um, yeah, like. Every character has a shred of your soul, I always say, and and of other people that you know too. But no, portia's story is is my worst nightmare. So her partner, her long-term partner, who they've always agreed to be child free by choice, he tells her one day that he's changed his mind. He's 40 now and he's a bit older maybe, and his father has died and he's kind of re-evaluated. So she has to decide whether to go along with with what he wants to keep him, or to forge her own new scary path. So that's reality check. Can you tell us what she does in the?

Speaker 1:

end. No, you have to read it.

Speaker 2:

It's a lovely new paperback cover and everything. Oh, fabulous, yeah. So you know I didn't necessarily mean for that to be the topic of my debut novel, but it was also the topic of my very first feature for Stellar magazine when I was 22 years old. It's like I sit down to write and that comes out, and I don't know why, because it always invites controversy and why do you think?

Speaker 2:

that I've learned over time that a lot of people take it as an insult because they think that you're looking at them and their children and their life and saying that's not for me. But that's never been the case. I have so much respect and admiration. My sister-in-law is currently pregnant. I'm about to be an auntie and I'm so absolutely thrilled about it. Like I'm annoying her constantly about it, I just I never saw that maternal role for myself. It doesn't mean that like I think more of other people like. It astounds me people like yourself able to do it all.

Speaker 1:

Oh Jesus, I'm not sure. I just told you what happened. Okay, I'm going to tell you a story. Guys, right, story time. Basically, I give Vicky a ring with an hour to go to the podcast. And I said, vicky, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do the podcast.

Speaker 1:

My son is up in Leia Healthcare and he, basically he came home. So today is Tuesday and he came home on Saturday after getting a whack off the hurl and his finger was bleeding and open and I was like, oh, you're grand, I'll just stitch you up there with the paper stitches. And he was giving out and moaning and I said I'll stop being such a moan baby, slash, you'd slash, you'd stop moaning, not listening to the poor fecker. And anyway, today he was still moaning about it and his finger was a little bit purple. So we sent him up to the clinic and, sure, as it's badly fractured. So I don't do it all. But you know what, living with three boys, I'm used to them always kicking the shit out of each other. It's like a UFC cage. So you just never know. And when you say, oh sure, look at you, you're doing it all, I'm not at all, you're just winging it.

Speaker 2:

Well, you're winging it, but you're still managing.

Speaker 1:

You know, you're still a young entrepreneur, an EY entrepreneur. One might question that as well. But look, I suppose everyone does what they.

Speaker 2:

everyone manages the way they can manage, I suppose, and I think the reason I've always wanted to talk about not wanting to be a mother is because I wanted to normalize it in some way, because not everybody does. And then there's a lot of people who are on the fence. But I think you know in your heart and soul what you want, and whether it happens or not is, of course, another thing which I always feel bad about, because you just do. Irish people are just made it's ingrained in us to feel guilty. So many people really want children and can't have them. And then there's me deciding not to. It's just, it's a silly thing, but it makes me feel guilty sometimes. But I think everyone has their own story, everyone has their own lifestyle that they live and I think once people realize that it's a choice, it's a decision you make to be a parent or not, then you know it's just like anything else.

Speaker 1:

And how was your husband when you told him that he?

Speaker 2:

felt the same, which I was extremely fortunate. Now, obviously, I wrote a book about him.

Speaker 1:

Isn't that random, though, that you met someone that was of the same thing, and had you met someone before that did want kids and you decided that it wouldn't. I was too young before for it to be a real thing.

Speaker 2:

When I met my husband, it was further proof that we were right for one another to me. I brought it up very early on. I think I was only 27 at the time. But I said, look, I don't see myself ever having kids. And he said, grand, me neither. So he hasn't changed his mind yet.

Speaker 1:

Let's travel the world together. What is this? And be rich, baby and double income and live off the fruit of your books? No, and live off the fruit of your books.

Speaker 2:

No, we live off the fruit of his IT career. My books are very much a side hustle in our family. Okay, but no, I yeah it, just it just further confirmation. It's 13 years later and we still both very much feel the same way. And you're not in any way worried now that you'll see this little new baby that comes into the family and get the pang? No, okay.

Speaker 1:

I think I'm going to be really thrilled to be cool Aunt Vicky. Do you know what? Yeah, I think I'm going to be good at that. I've reinvented myself as cool Auntie Laura. My sister is just a baby girl and she's gorgeous and when she was born I was like, oh my God, I wish I could have another one.

Speaker 2:

But literally, like two days later, seeing Rachel's big baggy eyes and realizing the tiredness she had, I was like no, no, my sister-in-law is a midwife and she's very much of the opinion that everyone should do what they want to do and that I've never met anybody going into this experience with their eyes more wide open. She probably knows too much, but she's going to be amazing. I went with her to a scan the other day and it was the same doctor that actually did my laparoscopy. Okay, keep it in the family, vicky. That was really nice. It was very emotional, but, no, there was no part of me that that wanted that to be me. But I'm very happy to be involved in it.

Speaker 1:

Can you give us a little inkling as to what is the story going on?

Speaker 2:

in your second long story. Well, the tagline is two best friends, one old flame. It's a long story, so it's about two women. It's about Tara and Alex. They met in stage school in Dublin when they were tweens. They were 11 years old. I guess that comes from me always wanting to be a Billy Barry and my mother never allowing it. She said I was annoying enough as it was. Oh my god, can I admit?

Speaker 1:

something. Yeah, I was Billy Barry, I'm so jealous.

Speaker 2:

Oh my good, were you in the panto.

Speaker 1:

No, I only lasted about a year. I only lasted by a year. I didn't start young. I was like 13 or 14 when I started with them. So I was not in the little white, in the little red skirts with the white. Yeah, I was in the black cat suit with the with the red. I just remember this. I only lasted a year. It was all the way in Fairview. It was difficult to get to. That was my mom's point. I probably wasn't terribly. I probably wasn't terribly talented either. Like I mean, I loved dancing, yeah, but I wasn't brilliant, right, so I wasn't and I wasn't that into it. I only went every Saturday. So yeah, I wasn't.

Speaker 2:

I would have loved it. I was made for it. I think, yeah, I could have been a star. No, my mum was probably right. I was annoying enough, was annoying enough. But then in secondary school there was a girl in my class that was a Billy Barrier and she's still in the panto today. She is in the Christmas pantos. So I'm jealous. But yeah, that's where the kind of the stage school element came from. So Tara is actually an actress, and a very successful one. She would be like if Saoirse Ronan did Julia Roberts movies. That's the way I'd describe Tara. She's quite a star, kind of like a lady.

Speaker 1:

Paul meskel I was actually thinking about paul meskel today I always think about paul meskel, I was listening to. I was listening to spotify and you know that song, the angelus or something like that, came up. It was the one that was during the normal people, the famous song there, when they were getting it on. Oh my goodness, that was such a good, it was brilliant and it came during covid.

Speaker 2:

It came at the perfect time.

Speaker 1:

I think so many of us related to that first love. Oh, totally Romance.

Speaker 2:

The. You know, oh my goodness, the experience I didn't have in Trinity College. I remember Joe went out for a silly little mental health walk and he came back and I was in floods and he was like who died, who has COVID? Because this was very early days, and I was like no, it's just normal people.

Speaker 1:

They couldn't make it work. You know those two kids, they couldn't make it work. It was. It was one of those series that I just loved. I loved and I never sit down and watch TV, but that one I loved it was the pandemic made us all sit down and watch TV.

Speaker 2:

I think, something I'm very good at. I'm very good at watching.

Speaker 1:

TV. They made the sex scene so relatable and just so normal.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, people well, one of my characters, sean Sweeney. He's the old flame in question. He was inspired by me wondering about who did Paul Meskel or Colin Farrell take to the Debs and what does that girly think of them now and them being like the internet's boyfriend. Who did Timothy Chalamet take to his prom? What's that girl like?

Speaker 2:

So that kind of sean sweeney is kind of this roguish character. I guess he is a bit of a colin farrell figure, maybe a bit of harry styles thrown in, but he's 40ish and, yeah, a bit of paul mescal in his slutty little shorts and there as well. That's how I see sean sweeney. So ga, short, oh fantastic, I might buy joper and they have to be one size too small as well. That's the rule. So yeah, of course, these two women who have been best friends for a long time end up fighting over this guy who's been in their lives. He was a Billy Barry it's not Billy Barry, it's called that's Demore and he was one of their schoolmates in stage school and he's always threatened to come between them but never has. And then he releases his memoir as Kris Jenner calls it memoirs, his autobiography and causes ructions at a very difficult time in both the girls lives. So yeah, you can imagine chaos ensues.

Speaker 2:

I'm dying to read it excited for you to read it. My favourite character is the owner of the stage school. He's called Darius Damore it's not really his real name because he's an Irish man but he's a very flamboyant character and he plays the go between between the women. He's their kind of best friend, slash uncle figure and he's fabulous.

Speaker 1:

OK, ok, it sounds fantastic. Thank you, it really does. It's the crack.

Speaker 2:

I love writing my books because I have great crack with them. At one point I was like, hang on, I want to make one of them go to the Oscars. So I did.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so you let your imagination just run wild Totally. Who has been your inspiration? Marion Keys, the queen of Irish fiction Fantastic.

Speaker 2:

I adore her and she's the kindest person you'll ever meet. As well, she's gorgeous. I love her to bits. They say don't meet your heroes, but meet Marion Keys. She's the best. Judy Big Inspo oh yeah, oh my god, it's me, margaret.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love Judy. You didn't read that, I read. Did you read Forever as a child? No, it is the book. It's slightly. It's for older teen fiction. So there was Forever and Tiger Eyes that were for like 17 year olds, right, but my mum didn't know that. So when I was 10 I was reading them and they're dirty in one of them and for a long time I thought everyone named their willies. So I was Does everyone not name their willies? Not in my house. Judy Blume was a huge inspiration, especially then, I think, when I was working in Kiss. I harked back to how teenagers never really change. Like she was writing her books in the 70s, I was writing for teenagers in the noughties and they're still worried about the same things, which are boys and periods and kissing. Do you know what books?

Speaker 1:

I loved what the Sweet Valley High.

Speaker 2:

Loved them, jessica, and.

Speaker 1:

Elizabeth, not the younger version, the older version, the university years? No, no, no, not that, no the teenage. You know the way there was ones when they were young, young, and then there's ones when they're getting older.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the ones where they're in high school, or with the original yeah, and then they wrote loads around them because it was a cash cow.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I loved the high school ones, but then they did the film off it and it was crap.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the series was good. Oh, no, sorry the series.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I liked it because it was ridiculous yeah it was.

Speaker 2:

It was like a fantasy.

Speaker 1:

But it kind of ruined the idea you had in your head of them, right, yeah?

Speaker 2:

Well, I saw something the other day about them kind of ruining body image, because in like the first page of every book it would be like, oh, they were a size six with aqua, blue eyes and natural blonde hair.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, I mean, that was, that was the day. That's the reason why Irish girls threw sun in into their hair, and me being one of them.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to be Jessica. Were you more of an Elizabeth? Why would you say that? More studious and scientific?

Speaker 1:

Jessica was bold. I liked her naughty side. Yeah, yeah, me too, probably a both yeah.

Speaker 2:

There's a great Irish podcast actually called Double Love. Actually, maybe it's not called Double Love, I'll look up the name of it, but it is two Irish girls who systematically go through the back catalogue of the hundreds of Sweet Valley High books.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's brilliant.

Speaker 1:

That author must have been an absolute loathe. She used a lot of ghosts.

Speaker 2:

Oh, did she? Yes, so the series is created by Francine Pascal, and then there was a lot of other people involved, which she admitted okay, yeah, yeah, no, it was great.

Speaker 1:

And do you know what else I loved when I was growing up? I loved this Flowers in the Attic, virginia Andrews. I loved them. I read all of her books.

Speaker 2:

Really. Did you like her? No, not really. It was a bit too slow moving for me, was it? I liked Valley of the Dolls, the pill popping. I love Jackie Collins.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love Jackie too. I love a bit of Jackie. I learned a lot from Jackie Me, me too. Mum had loads of her books in the bookshelf. You can still see the bookshelf in my mind's eye. It's been removed now from the house, but I remember reading Jackie I was probably like 11 or 12, in the bathroom because it's so dirty. I remember one guy Jackie used to refer to in one of the novels Frank the Ram the stud. He's the stud, but she called him Frank the Ram because of all.

Speaker 2:

He was a horned dog, his appendage yes, jackie was a big inspiration, especially on Reality Check, because it's set in Hollywood and she wrote about the realities of Hollywood because she lived there and kind of watched everybody. She was very observant. So I wanted to write that kind of glamorous book about famous people and rich people and their and the things they get up to.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to read that then because if there's some sauce. Oh, there's a bit of.

Speaker 2:

Reality Check's probably saucier than Long Story, but Long Story is more of a slow burn. Okay, people love a slow burn. Yes, it's a thing in romance fiction. Now, some people will only read a book if it's a slow burner, because they want to really get ready for it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2:

And just, isn't it like, yeah, exactly, tell me about growing up as an only child? Yeah, I kind of loved it because I didn't know any different. Yeah, you know, I was never very lonely. It was very strange. There was about four only children on my tiny road, my tiny cul-de-sac in Talla, and we were all around the same age, me and two boys, and there was another girl up the road, so we kind of all had each other to play with and they were like two big brothers who sat in my head and farted and killed me. Oh, lovely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then I had two cousins that I was really close to, a very small family. It was just the three of us on one side. So it kind of felt like I had a lot of pseudo siblings. And then friendship, I guess, became extremely important to me because I didn't have any sisters so it kind of felt like I needed to go out and make them and that's. I guess friendship is a huge theme in long story, so I think that's where it came from. I think I had a kind of half an obsession with friendship, almost like a fetish about friendship, because I grew up in the years when, you know, in the 90s, it was all about sisters on TV. It was like Sweet Valley High Sister, sister, do you?

Speaker 1:

remember Sister, sister, yeah, but I didn't watch that. I was too great show, great show. It was all about sisterhood. And then, and then the two oh no, sorry, I'm thinking of the twins, but they weren't acting like twins, they were just stepping in for each other. You know the Ashley and Mary Kate, and Ashley, they were big as well.

Speaker 2:

Mary, kate and Ashley had their own sitcom at one point, a load of films, so yeah, it was all about sisters. And then in the kind of late 90s, early noughties, it was all about friends of literal friends, sex in the, the city, films like the First Wives Club, like it was all about kind of gangs of girlfriends. So I had this thought in my mind that you know your friends were always going to be the most important people in your life and the friends that you had since birth you know were going to be your maids of honor and they're going to be with you every step of the way. And that just doesn't always happen and I think that was a big wake up call.

Speaker 2:

Not really. No, I mean school friends. Yes, you're all a pack of bitches. No, Not at all. Even the boys I grew up with, I don't really see them anymore. You want to fart in your face. I want to fart in my face, like you know, I know, I know their wives and stuff. Oh my God, disgusting. But like I'd see, you know, and it'd be great. We're kind of so much to each other as kids and then not as adults.

Speaker 1:

Oh, it is mad. I was actually thinking of friendship there yesterday because I was driving home and Oasis were playing on the radio and of course Oasis are coming to Croke Park, as we all know, and we all went mad to try and get those tickets because it was literally nostalgia for my 16-year-old self. I can remember all the boys and girls that I hung around with Do you still hang around with them.

Speaker 1:

No, I mean, there's one group of girls that we have a WhatsApp group, but we wouldn't see each other from one year to the next. But you talk. That's important and occasionally meet. But yeah, it's just funny how life gets in the way and how people that were so very important to you back then now just are, I suppose, on the fringes of your life.

Speaker 2:

You have to prioritize different things right. So your children, your career, your marriage, like things and everybody is doing that. So it's very rare that everybody would even have the same time spare, or you know? I think in my life people have made a big effort to come together for big occasions. So, like my book launched last year, I had friends from when I was four and I had school friends and old teachers because I'm such a lick Friends from throughout my working life and friends that I'm very close to now. So that was a really meaningful day for me. It was almost more so than my wedding, because there was no restrictions on how many people could come. You know, everyone just showed up to support. So I've kept connections, but friendship on it. You know the way Carrie and Samantha and Miranda and Charlotte led me to believe my life was going to be like. It's not like that, you know you don't meet your four best friends for brunch every Saturday and talk about those bum guys that are upsetting you. It's just not the way it is.

Speaker 1:

And do you find as well that because I assume you have friends that have had children? Yes, Because I know that in my confessions box I get a lot of people that say women would message me and say, you know, since my friends have had children they and I don't have children I don't reach out. I'm always trying to reach out to them. They're always too busy to contact me. Do you feel that that's happened to, that it's hard? Or do you gravitate towards people who haven't had children, or do you find that people do make time?

Speaker 2:

I mean a bit of all of it, like one of my best friends has just had a baby and I think we're closer than ever. But I think I've definitely gone the extra mile to check on her all the time. And we went away the two of us, on a ladies day trip the other day without the baby. It was her first time being away from the baby for a day. So you know, I was very conscious of that and I think she and I it's kind of like a new level to our bond. And then I'm friends with lots of gays let's be honest that don't have kids. Oh yeah, you know that's different. And then one of my closest friends is currently pregnant. My sister-in-law is currently pregnant.

Speaker 2:

But you know, I think it's up to me, as the childless one, to be the support system and roll with the punches. And you're the person everyone wants to hang around with. Oh, I'll take that. I will take that. But, like you know, I'm the one that I'm thrilled to organize the baby shower. Yeah, because I have the time to do it and I love throwing a party. I will do that for everybody. I'll do multiple baby showers and and apparently the new thing my sister-in-law wants us all to like get together and batch cook for her. So that's she doesn't want like a traditional baby shower. She wants us all to like get together and in the kitchen and and help her that way. So I'm thrilled to be that person. She's the most intelligent person I've ever met.

Speaker 2:

I'm so lucky with my in-laws and my parents. Being an only child, there's only the three of us and we're very close to my husband's family, so there's seven of us now because my sister-in-law's husband's soon to be eight. How exciting. And we're all super close. So that's I'm really lucky and, for want of a better word, blessed with them. They're amazing and it makes me feel like less of an only child because I have a gang now. I think the only time I really didn't like it was when I was maybe 20, 21 and hung over on Christmas morning was just me and my parents oh yeah, you know and they're like looking at me going open your presents and I'm gonna you never wish for a sister or brother.

Speaker 1:

You were happy. You know quite the opposite.

Speaker 2:

I used to tell them not to and now they obviously took no heed of me. They just never happened for them again. Okay, but no, I didn't know. I was very happy with my cousins and my friends on the road and and also being by myself. I'm still pretty good at being by myself, so I was. I've had a lot of messages online from people who either have an only child or think they might only have one child and they've said like thanks a million because I worry about my kids, but I mean everyone's different. Some only children do get lonely, but I was very happy to entertain myself.

Speaker 1:

I see that a lot. There's a poet, holly Poetry, on Instagram. I love her stuff. She's from the UK, poetry like the chicken. No, she just does amazing poetry about being a girl and a woman and everything, and she has one child Right, and she says mind people that comment on oh my goodness, you've only one child, I hate the only one. She's going to be this. She's going to be that, like my friends who have one child and they have the best life and they chose to have one child and their daughter I'm thinking of one in particular is absolutely amazing child, child and you know not spoiled can get on well in any conversation.

Speaker 2:

I think that people are very judgmental, regardless of one child or no children, it doesn't matter how many you have. People have something to say about it. So that's why I learned a long time ago to just be like look, just do you. You know, if you want 10, have 10. If you want none, have none. I think my parents would have loved more, but they're very happy with me. They Are they, they would, and they're thrilled that my sister-in-law's having this baby. You know, we're all kind of in it together and they are the best parents ever and I dedicated a long story to them because they've always pushed me and believed in me and, to be honest, I can be a bit much. So, you know, I think they had their hands on off with me.

Speaker 1:

You were three children in one, exactly three children in one, exactly Nataro. Where does that name come from? Italia, okay, do you?

Speaker 2:

speak Italian very little. I did a bit of Italian in college for a while, but I was quite poor at it. Again, they expected you to be like reading Dante's Divine Comedy in Italian in second year and it just wasn't going to fly. I'm not great at languages, which is interesting because I consider myself to be quite good at English, but not in foreign languages or Irish dreadful.

Speaker 1:

I remember my sister-in-law studying that Dante my husband. La Comedia and my sister-in-law grew up in well. They spent like five or six years of their formative years in Italy, so they were fluent Italian and she did Italian in college and I remember her studying that Dante and I remember like calling up to their house one day and she was like white as it. As it goes, it's so hard, it's a difficult one, isn't it I?

Speaker 2:

had never failed an exam in my life and I failed my Italian literature exam in second year and I luckily was able to switch into a different course. I switched into English and film studies and that was a much better fit for me. I don't know why I ever did Italian, but I've tried it on Duolingo and languages just don't stick in my head. It's like numbers, they just confuse me. But yeah, I like being part Italian, Although my family we never had a chipper something I'm devastated about, because most of the prominent Irish Italian families would have or be associated with chippers and they have this big Irish Italian ball every year and they're all very glamorous. They're all from one place in Italy as well. Most would be from around the Monte Cassino Avellino area. My family are from Soro. Yeah, it's south between Naples and Rome.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot of people came over here and did your dad speak Italian until you were growing up then.

Speaker 2:

No, he can't really speak Italian. He's not great at Italian languages either, so he was weird and crumbling. Okay, so we're quite far down the ladder, but my mum is a redhead. That looks very Italian. But I don't fully have anything I have is quite fake.

Speaker 1:

The tan the hair colour.

Speaker 2:

I looked, maybe in your boots there and it's like no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have paid for these. Let me tell you, no, I fake the tan and the hair colour. Well, I'm quite fair, naturally.

Speaker 1:

And you mentioned Crumlin there, which is interesting because that's where my husband currently is with our son in the children's hospital.

Speaker 2:

Oh my God that completely broadcasted.

Speaker 1:

Oh my God, vicky, what advice would you give young people today?

Speaker 2:

Oh God, that's a loaded question. Get off your phones constantly would be the biggest thing. It's something I have to say to myself a lot. I mean, I don't think it's good for our mental health to be constantly scrolling and constantly taking in this massive amount of information. I think we should kind of identify the things we're interested in and read books about them or watch documentaries or shows about them.

Speaker 1:

I do wonder about literacy levels. I do too. It's scary.

Speaker 2:

I find myself getting sucked in, you know I'm sure you do too yeah, For hours on end. And then you know you inevitably compare yourself and me on the cusp of 40. I can't imagine what a 13 year old girl is is thinking when she's taking in all of this stuff. It just frightens me because I grew up with the internet but not with smartphones, so I think I was 12 when we got dial-up internet. You know the were you.

Speaker 1:

So I was 1998. Yeah, yeah, I was. So I was in college when it kind of all took off. So I remember writing my thesis with the dial-up internet Get off the phone. That would have been 2022. Yes, 2002. 2002. So I grew up with my friend phoning from a phone box and my dad.

Speaker 2:

But I did too. I had that too, because it wasn't everywhere, you know, it wasn't until I was maybe 18. That like Bebo was a thing and MySpace 18,. That like Bebo was a thing and MySpace Like. They were my first social networks when I was in college. So Facebook wasn't even around until around the time I started working. So while I grew up with the internet as like an information source, I used to go on Leonardo DiCaprio's fan pages and I loved Wikipedia because, again, I'm a little nerd but it wasn't constant, whereas now it's so easy to just get sucked in. So for young people, I mean, just the biggest piece of advice I have for everyone is just to be yourself. Just be yourself and be confident in who you are and don't let you know naysayers put you off being who you are, because I think I had a bit of a crisis of confidence in my late 20s due to stress and burnout, and it's only now really that I'm really fully getting it back.

Speaker 1:

So confidence is king. It is, yeah. And what's the meaning of life, jesus Lord, did you not get the?

Speaker 2:

did you not get the? Um, I didn't know you were good, everyone got those questions. Everyone gets those questions. What is the meaning of life? Love. Love is the meaning of life in in all its forms friendship, family, romantic love, love for your pets, love for your children. Just loving yourself, just love. I think that's why we're here.

Speaker 1:

Vicky, it's been lovely talking to you. It's been amazing. Thank you for having me. The very best of luck with your book and your third one coming out now as well. I can't believe it.

Speaker 1:

Next year, next year? Okay, fantastic, Thank you. Thank you. Glow from the inside out with my fabu skin, hair and nails glow, which blends 12 active ingredients including reishi, mushroom, amino acids, vitamins and minerals to support collagen production and skin, hair and nail health on a cellular level. See the amazing before and after pictures of fuller, thicker hair, radiant, glowing skin and longer, stronger nails on fabiwellnesscom. Available on fabiwellnesscom and in pharmacies and health food stores nationwide.