The Laura Dowling Experience
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The Laura Dowling Experience
Navigating Separation and Divorce with Family Law Solicitor Hilary O'Connor
Navigating separation and divorce is emotionally charged and legally complex, requiring careful consideration of finances, children’s needs, and your own well-being throughout the process. Family law solicitor Hilary O’Connor offers clear guidance on managing this challenging life transition.
- Mediation should be the initial step in separation proceedings as it is free and enables couples to resolve issues collaboratively.
- Living “separate and apart” for one year qualifies for separation in Ireland, while divorce requires two years out of the last three.
- Emotions run high during separation – being “too mad and too sad” can impair decision-making and needlessly prolong the process.
- The family home often becomes a central issue, but financial realities mean that one household budget must now support two homes.
- Pensions are just as important as property in settlement discussions, yet are frequently overlooked.
- Access to children is the child’s right to see both parents, not a “gift” the primary carer can withhold.
- The legal process includes submitting affidavits of means and welfare, with full financial disclosure required for settlements.
- Qualified cohabitants (those living together for 2+ years with children or 5+ years without) have similar, though not identical, rights to married couples.
- Maintenance for children continues until the age of 18 (or 23 if in full-time education), while spousal maintenance may be lifelong.
- Self-care is essential – seek counselling, surround yourself with supportive people, and “stock up on vitamins” as your immune system will be affected.
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Welcome to my podcast, the Laura Dowland Experience. Many of you will know me from my Instagram page at Fabulous Pharmacist, where I love to shine a light on topics that people normally shy away from. Today I spoke with Hilary O'Connor. Hilary is a family law solicitor, and today we discuss the challenges that people face wading through the murky waters of separation and divorce. Topics include maintenance, access to children, finances, mediation and the courts. I think a lot of you will get a real benefit out of this discussion. The Laura Dowling Experience is brought to you today by Fabu Wellness Nutritional supplements that merge the power of nature with the precision of science, formulated and developed by Laura Dowling, fabulous Pharmacist fabiwellnesscom. For more information. Enjoy the show.
Speaker 1:Welcome, hilary, to the podcast. Thanks so much, laura. I'm delighted to be here. I'm so thrilled. I thought that when I put out a question box for the prolapse, that I was inundated, but I've never been as inundated with questions about a topic actually as this one, so I'm delighted that you're here to talk about it. It's a very emotive topic, I know. It's about divorce and separation and how to wade our way through it, when we're going through it and actually where to start. So where do we start. If our marriage, our relationship is broken down, what is the way to go, get through?
Speaker 2:this. Well, firstly, when somebody comes to me, laura, I get the brief details of who they are and the date of their marriage and who their partner is, or their husband or their wife, and details if there are any children, the house and mortgage. And then, after I get those details form filling which I'm not keen on because people aren't forms I say to them has your marriage broken down? And that's a question that can only be answered by the person. And sometimes they might say yeah, it has, or I don't know, or this is where we're at, and I have said, look, you need to get help or you need to get treatment, or we can't go on like this. But I just want to know what separation or divorce would look like if I go down this route. So when they come to me, first it's just an initial consultation and generally I would take the instructions as to where they're at now and what's the financial picture of the family and if there are children, and what are the ages of the children, are they in school and how they're doing and that is, as you can imagine, it's different for everyone and after that I then ask them to go to mediation and mediation is a brilliant idea and if it works, it works brilliantly and it means that you go to a trained mediator and you try to resolve the issues around separating and dividing out the assets and deciding on access and deciding on maintenance and what's going to happen here. So you have input into it and it's very good when it works. And it's very good when it works.
Speaker 2:But we don't live in a perfect world and invariably when a relationship breaks down, one party might not want that relationship to break down, so is sad and mad because it has broken down. And when sad and mad are in the room and they're at a 10, you won't make good decisions and you won't get a person to probably focus on making a decision because they're too sad and mad to do so. So I talk about sad and mad a lot because they rule the roost for so long in the separation process. So in Ireland we have a system which has changed so you have to be one year living separate and apart to get a separation if it's on a no fault basis, and that one year before you start it can be within the same house, which is difficult, so it can be within the same house, which is difficult.
Speaker 1:So it can be in the same house if people can't move out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because of the financial constraints people can't just get up and leave and pay rent. You know everybody's talking about how there is no houses and then the cost of renting. So people are separated within the same household and you see that even not living together, set up is very difficult.
Speaker 1:And how do they decide on the point? Can they backdate it? Can they just say, oh look, if they want to rush things forward because everyone's talking about how long this process is, can they just say, well, actually, could they come to you and say, well, actually, we haven't separated for a year, we this process is. Can they just say well, actually, could they come to you and say well, actually, we haven't separated for a year, We've been living in the same house but we haven't had.
Speaker 2:Is it about having had intimacy? Yes, part of it, like if you've been living together as a couple and you're going to events together, well, that's not living separate and apart. So it is one of the indicators, you know. So it is one of the indicators. But yeah, it's it's. People can backdate it. I'm sure they can. I'm sure they do. But I have to take on face value the instructions I'm getting from a person that they say, well, we haven't been intimate for, you know, two years. Then I will take that instruction. If the, if the other party comes back and says, well, we were, it has never really happened. Well, it's happened once. But by the time that comes to a hearing, it's not about us living together, we're not the one year. It becomes about who's going where with what, which is essentially what separation and divorce is about, with the whole pile of emotion on top of it.
Speaker 1:When you consider it and I think somebody said this to me once it is you know it's the contract that you sign that you think the least about, but it has the most implications for your life, like when you there is's. No. In no other circumstance would you sign some your, your whole life over to someone your assets, your finances, everything you know on what you know, on a love basis or a trust basis like that. That's the whole. That that's why it's such a minefield, isn't it? Because absolutely.
Speaker 2:And that goes back to the emotional side of it and I, which I'm so interested in, it's like love. It's like you're glad. I always say you never make good decisions when you're too mad, too sad or too glad. And if you look back on daft purchases or something you've done in the past, you're like that wasn't a great idea, it's because things were a 10 instead of a 6, where they need to be so again. You know, I mean, but you meet people who had a very short romance, got married and they're happy out, you know. And then you meet people who got married after being together for five years or something. So there's no set rule of like, oh, that didn't work out because you know, but it is, it is, it's a marriage contract and but it's it's based on love, which is an emotion, and when that doesn't work out, then the fallout from that and I think most people are looking at the business end of it as in well, what's going to happen to that family home? Blah, blah, blah. You know, where are we going to live? How much? How much will I need to live on and am I going to see the kids or all that? But it is.
Speaker 2:It is something that I lost my train of thought there. But so when people are thinking about the separation, it is that it is the who's going where with what. But you have to understand that you are going to be sad about it. So that's why I also say go to mediation and you need counselling and you need loads of it, and you also need good people around you, which is your core people, not everybody else, because everybody else has a view on how much should be paid for maintenance and no way that he should be getting you know half the house, no way, this, that and the other and like that's very negative and it's a really negative influence because you're only walking that path. It's only you that's in those shoes, you know. So I think, take your advice from people who are accountable for it and those who know what they're doing and what they're talking about.
Speaker 1:So I decide my marriage is broken down. I go to. You have to go to a solicitor. What if it's completely amicable? Everything's in place. You agree everything on the kids, you agree everything on the assets, or something like that. Can you do it really quickly, or is it still?
Speaker 2:Absolutely Consent is pushed way up. So in those situations you would go to the mediator.
Speaker 1:That's a free mediation service as well. That's why I'm always pushing it. I'm like we get nothing for free. This is free, so go. Is there a long waiting list for them? Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. Okay, but you know. But can you pay for it privately and get it?
Speaker 2:You can pay for it privately, so you can go get your mediated agreement and then go to a solicitor and get that formalised and that could go in by way of a consent divorce, a consent separation, depending on what.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So that's a good way of doing it and that's I send. Even if you know you're not going to agree on everything, I think it's a good idea. Everybody goes to mediation because at least you're not spending time, money and energy on something and you are. You know, when you go to mediation you might just say we can't agree on the kids or we can't agree on this, and at least you've agreed, you've found out what you can agree on and it hasn't cost you a fortune. And then you've got the net issues. Then you can go back to your solicitor. So everyone should try it anyway.
Speaker 1:So to get a list of things that you do agree on, it's a good idea to go to mediation and then for those things that you need, to tick-tock back and forth, for that's where the solicitor comes in, and what comes up time and time again is the financial burden of this. And if someone isn't agreeing to mediation and if someone is fighting at every hurdle, that just prolongs the process, does it? It does.
Speaker 2:And it delays it significantly. That just prolongs the process. Does it? It does and it delays it significantly. And what I say to people is that you are. If you meet the requirements for a separation, which is when you're living separate and apart, no prospect of reconciliation, and proper provision has to be made for the parties involved. If you meet those requirements, you're entitled to your separation. It's two years for the divorce, two out of the last three. Now there are circumstances where you can get separation if you don't have to be one year living separate and apart, where there's adultery or where it would be unreasonable for you to expect to continue living with that person. Okay. So if you meet those qualifications, you are entitled to your divorce or your separation, depending on what you're going for.
Speaker 2:The other person can delay it, but they can't stop it. So once you get on the path and keep moving forward, you will get there. But they will be obstructive and if they don't engage, that's difficult and there are certain steps along the way that you have to get to in order to maybe meet and try and settle the case. But if they don't engage, then you have to push them. You have to push them away, push them along the way, which is by way of motions and their applications to the court, and they're done by a solicitor which are costly to both parties.
Speaker 1:Is that right they?
Speaker 2:add to the costs? Yeah, they do. So if you were going through a court separation or a divorce, you'd start off with what's called your family law civil bill, so I like to call it my side of the story or your side of the story, right.
Speaker 2:So this is. So. You take instructions as to who the parties are and if there are children, what you do, what I do and is there a mortgage on the house, and blah, blah, blah, and you put in brief details of the breakdown of the marriage. Now you might have to put in more details. My style is to, if we can leave, you know. Well, it was because you went and did this, that and the other, and you know that's the reason. The breakdown, like you have to understand that the other person is going to read this. So if you put in a load of stuff there, then that's going to get a reaction from the other person and say no, the reason isn't because of that. I never did that. In fact, it was you that had the affair first, not me. Blah, blah, blah. And then it gets into who did what? Okay About instead of how we get out of this marriage. You know, and you can waste a lot of time and money on that.
Speaker 1:Can you not just put down irreconcilable differences? Yes, you can.
Speaker 2:Okay, but sometimes the behavior is important. Okay, and you might want the court to look at it. If there was abuse, for example, you might want to put in the detail there. But a lot of people who come, their relationship is broken down and it has broken down and and everyone has their own story and it's really sad. But I I would say, do you want all of that stuff to go into it? Okay, and and they will decide that now they can or not. It's not my call to make, but, as I said, just in my experience, the other person is going to read that and that's always a shocker.
Speaker 2:Get even madder and even sadder and then we're still at 10 and we needed to move it down. So that's the family law civil bill. The person who's applying for the divorce or separation. They sign that or they start off with that Family law civil bill.
Speaker 2:The person who's applying for the divorce, the separation. They sign that and or they start off with that. That's backed up with what's called an affidavit of means, which is the statement of your assets, your liabilities, your income, your expenditure. Ok, so that's the financial picture of the person. Then, if there are children, you would put in an affidavit of welfare and that sets out the dates of birth of the children, where the children are going to school, if access is currently happening, and what kind of access is. Is maintenance being paid? How's the health of everybody? You know, are there any issues that the court needs to be concerned about? And do you want to change this in any way? Right, so that's, that's the welfare part of it. So that's that's on step one, if you like, ok, and that will go to the other side.
Speaker 2:Now I would always say don't serve that on the other person because it's all legalistic and it's an intimidating document. To get these three documents. It's kind of like oh my God, you know he's looking for the house, he's looking to sell the house from under me and it's. It's a frightening document if you're not used to doing it, if you're not used to reading them, and who would be used to reading that only legal people you know. So what I always say is go home, tell your wife, tell your husband, whoever that your marriage is broken down and you've gone to see me today and about the breakdown of your marriage, and we need to discuss the fallout of the breakdown, which is the family home maintenance pension, blah, blah, blah. Okay, would you bring this letter to your solicitor? And that's when I want to engage with their solicitor. Okay, okay, now this is obviously if the mediation situation hasn't worked out.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, Now this is obviously if the mediation situation hasn't worked out, okay, okay, can I just ask you just in the middle of this if it's a very amicable divorce and separation and everyone agrees, is it three years from start to finish? They can like between deciding their marriage is broken down and then divorce happening, or is it five years? No, how happening or is it five years? How quickly can it happen? If it's amicable, and then how long?
Speaker 2:If it's amicable and you have your time done, as in, if you're already separated two out of the last three years, then you'd go to your mediation and you'd have it done in months. Okay, grand yeah, because you'd go in, the solicitor would go in draft the paperwork you still have to exchange those affidavits, the means they'd have to be filed in court and you go in by way of a consent motion and you'd have that within a matter of months, three months.
Speaker 1:Okay, but then if it's protracted and long, it can take years and years and years to sort. Is that right?
Speaker 2:I always say to people definitely pitch in. For a year, you're talking a year. And if there is the traffic along the way which the other person isn't engaging and we have to go into court and get motions to compel them to file the documents that I'll talk about in a second. If they do that, if you have to do that, then you're talking 18 months, two years. And then if there is an unwillingness to exchange the vouching documents, so that affidavit means that I talked about your statement of your assets. That has to be proved, so you have to exchange.
Speaker 2:So if you say there's 10 grand in your bank account, you want 12 months bank statements. If you say I'm earning five grand a month, you have to show your pay slips. If you know whatever you say is on that, you need to prove it. So that's called the vouching. So that vouching has to be exchanged. And the reason for this and you have to do this, whether you do a mediated agreement or a separation agreement the reason you do it is you do the deal based on full disclosure. So if somebody didn't disclose something, then that deal is in jeopardy, and so these are affidavits, which are sworn statements.
Speaker 1:So if somebody didn't reveal that, they have loads of money in an offshore account or in a post office account.
Speaker 2:The thing about this jurisdiction is the courts can only make orders in respect of assets within the country. So if there was an offshore account, the court can't say, well, 50% of that is to the husband or the wife. But what they could do is they could take that 50 grand into account when making other orders. So you might get a bit more of the family home, because they've got the 50 grand in Jersey.
Speaker 1:But is that only if they disclose the 50 grand in Jersey? Like, if they don't disclose it and you think they have something but they don't disclose it, then you know, is that just more fighting back? Have you seen that where people hide assets all over the place?
Speaker 2:yeah, you would see it? And or where people's relationships are different. And if somebody is the dominant, um uh, earning God if they the breadwinner, the is the dominant. Earning God if they the breadwinner, the breadwinner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's okay, it's already in the morning. I'm a baker's daughter the breadwinner.
Speaker 2:So yes, so if, and the other person was the looking after children or maybe part-time work or something like that, and they always had this kind of lifestyle and they always knew there was money or there was a policy here or there, and now there's nothing. You know it's very difficult, like you do go trawling through the bank statements and all like that and that, but you're only going through them for a year. For a self-employed person you can go back three years, but it's really only a year. And so how do you prove it?
Speaker 2:so so you need to be, I would say, inform yourself about what you think the assets are and you know, look to see and ask questions as instead of going around with your head in the clouds, because I know a lot of people do like.
Speaker 1:Sometimes in a lot of relationships, there's one person that looks after the finances and the bills and all the rest and you know the other person has no clue what goes on. And then it's only when this kind of thing comes up that there's an issue.
Speaker 2:And then what if they, if they, if they've separated, and people feel so stupid about that and it's awful because they, like they, would say to me, I should have done this years ago. And I would always say you can give an out to yourself. You didn't have the strength for it years ago. You're here now because it's the right thing for you now and don't be going nuts about why don't I know more about the finances, because you were doing other things you know. So like it's a critical space for people at a really, really difficult time, because if you feel that the other person is not being candid about the finances, it adds to the vulnerability.
Speaker 1:I can imagine. And then if someone like have you seen it? Where, like you know, marriages are taken along okay and someone's very generous during the marriage, and then the marriage breaks down and there's literally the funds are cut off, the funds are cut off and the funds are, even though the funds would have fed the three children before the marriage broke down.
Speaker 2:now the funds are about getting nails done or going on holidays, you know it suddenly becomes that and it's very annoying, but you would see it, and judges are used to dealing with that. But you also see situations where if the money, if the maintenance isn't what you want it to be, well, the access is not going to be what the other person wants it either. So you'd see penalisation of access for maintenance issues, which isn't right either.
Speaker 1:And who decides that so the person who has the most access, like say for want of a better word it's usually the woman that has the access to the children, or most of it she's the primary carer. So do you see that the woman, if she's not, if she perceives to not get the money that she thinks that she deserves, she penalises the dad.
Speaker 2:That can happen and one courts are very strict on that, like one is not dependent on the other. So access should not be something that is played with like that. Now there are more and more instances of 50-50 access situations where people can co-parent where they can live in the area so they can split the access. That's a very good system if it works. But because that's a financial situation, really it's only when people can financially live around the same area.
Speaker 1:And actually, with the 50-50 custody financial situation, really it's only when people can financially live around independently, yeah, and, and actually with the 50 50 custody, does that mean that no one has to give anyone access? I mean not access, sorry, maintenance does that mean that there's no maintenance paid as such because technically, the children are in the other person's home 50 percent of the time.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what would because?
Speaker 1:that has come up that say you know, my husband has applied for 50 percent access, 50 50 access, but it's only because he doesn't want to give me any money.
Speaker 2:Yes, and if it doesn't, if it turns out that he's not having 50% access, well then you would go back. You're entitled to vary it. So whatever order you make, it's maintenance is always variable because situations always change. You know, if you're paying, you know X amount on maintenance and then you lose your job, you can't comply with that, so you would want it changed. You know so. Equally, if you, if you came into a windfall or you know you got a big promotion and maintenance should change in those circumstances.
Speaker 1:And this is even post-divorce this is post-divorce. So if you have children together post-divorce and you get a massive promotion. Your spouse is entitled to some of that. Well, it's a change in circumstances.
Speaker 2:It can be reviewed. It might not, but it can be, and you're not talking like small increments either, you know. So you do want to do a deal that gives you and your ex as much certainty as possible. And the courts try to look at that. And a lot of people have a view that because you're the primary carer, that you can stay in the family home, like until the youngest is 18 and your youngest at the moment is two Right Like.
Speaker 2:I would not say that's realistic because that ties the other person financially to you for 16 years. You know they they have a mortgage with you. That means the other person who's out of the house can't get a mortgage or can't move on financially for 16 years. So I don't think that situation is realistic. But it all depends. Every, honestly, every case that comes before you is different, and so that's what you need to look at. And like on day one when people come to me, I would nearly know if it's possible to buy the other person out. And people are obsessed with the family home and I can understand that, and it's another wound if I have to say to them look, there's no reality here of holding on to this house, you can't buy the other person out. So how do you feel about that? And, like normally, it's kind of like a devastating blow, but I'd prefer to say it rather than the judge says it, you know.
Speaker 2:So people need to be financially. They have to go into the financial gym really to start getting financially savvy as to where they are and what this means for them post separation. So if you're working, you'd need to go to a broker and see what can I raise, what kind of money can I raise? And it might be that you're not talking about buying a house, it's just a rental situation. It's just not possible.
Speaker 2:But if you are talking about buying a house, selling the family home, buying a house, how much can you raise on your own? And then you'll know it's that it's X amount. Then you'll know well, how much do I need from the family home in order to house me and the three kids or whatever. So so they're the kind of things it's not about. It's not really about the legal process. It's about figuring out the answers to all of those questions. It's like who is going where with what and what is needed to keep this show on the road. And people don't understand that when you put all the money into one house and it now has to do two houses, that there is going to be a significant decrease in the standard of living.
Speaker 1:And do you see that all the time, all the?
Speaker 2:time, like there are very few cases where people can be rehoused mortgage free or you know it's. We can all live in the same area.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like we're talking big mortgages and like that's, that's, that's, that's the financial conundrum.
Speaker 1:And that in and of itself is so stressful because, if you have, you know your relationship is broken down A and B. Then you're financially in like significant difficulty because, like what you said, you might have to sell the family home. Your standard of living drops. All of that has taken out the stress on people and I'm going to try and get someone on to talk about all that emotional baggage and everything like that, because we could be here for hours talking about that. But what happens if someone owns property prior to the marriage and then they get married?
Speaker 2:yes, so say if it's a family home, it becomes a family home because you're married in it. So that would be taken into account, the fact that you owned it previously. But say, if you owned it with a 30 year marriage and five years into the mortgage you got married. What did I say? 30 year marriage? So say, if you had a 30 year mortgage and five years into your mortgage you got married, it became a family home and you're married for 20 years. So the majority of that time it was a family home.
Speaker 2:There would be some you would take into account the five years previous to it, but it wouldn't mean that well, it was mine before I met you. It's a family home, it's a family asset and it all goes into the pot. I'm not saying it goes out 50-50, that's not what I'm saying but it goes into the pot for consideration. And look, you would be making a case that I had this before I met you, or I put more into the house than you did. You know we had to put in an underground deposit. I put in 60 grand, you put in 40, so you'd be trying to divvy that up.
Speaker 1:But then when it comes to childcare, so someone has to stay at home, someone has to work or someone doesn't work as much, like often sometimes people will work part time. Where does that all fit in with you? Know because obviously you divide and conquer when it comes to family life and financials when you're together, but then when you break up, is it usually the person that hasn't been working as much that's left more financially unstable.
Speaker 2:Well, the whole family is really. But yes, if you're in part time work and you might have sacrificed your career advancement in order to look after the children, so where does that leave you? And there's been loads of case law on that you will be entitled to claim something for that. But depending on your age, Laura, judges like to see people working. And our parents' generation, when they came before the courts, there was the traditional, you know, you had to give up your job when you got married, you know. So they were the homemakers. So when they came before the courts, that was recognised.
Speaker 2:But now we are in an economy where there's loads of jobs. So if you were staying at home to rear the kids, fine, If that was a decision, a decision that you both made grand. But if the marriage then breaks down and you are at home and the children are at school, there would be an expectation on you to go and get work. Now you would be entitled to claim 50% of the other person's pension for the duration of the marriage. So that would be, you know, not your compensation, but that is to be considered as part of it.
Speaker 1:So what does that mean? Because that pension question came up. I don't understand it when you say 50% of the pension for the duration of the marriage.
Speaker 2:So pensions are nobody considers them.
Speaker 1:I couldn't believe the amount of questions that come in about pensions because I wouldn't even be thinking about the pension, but they're important, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh they are. They are as important as the family home. Okay, nobody thinks about them or looks at them Because, well, depending on what stage of life you are. So if you're in your 40s and you're separating, you're 20 plus years away from your pension, so you're not programmed, you're thinking I just need to get out of this house and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:But if you're in your late 50s and you're separating, the pension becomes quite important. The pension is very important and especially if you're with somebody who has a good pension and so watching it on for the pension. Yeah, and it is because everybody thinks the pension will be like, oh you know, but if you haven't been working and you haven't had those contributions to a pension because you've been staying at home, the other person's pension becomes quite important. So if the other person is going to get 30 grand on retirement per annum, you're entitled to claim 50% of that for the duration of the marriage. So say they were working for 30 years and 20 years of that you were married, 20 years of that you are married you'd be entitled to 50% of the 20 years contribution.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're entitled to 50. So are you entitled to then 15 grand of that, 30 for the next 20 years.
Speaker 2:Is that what you're entitled to? Well say, if 30 grand was for 30 years, so say 20 grand is for 20 years. Okay, so you're entitled to say 10 grand.
Speaker 1:And is that paid to you in a lump sum or is it paid out like the pension, like monthly or weekly? It's paid monthly.
Speaker 2:It's an income. Now that's what you're entitled to claim, okay, and that's what people overlook. Well, the solicitor wouldn't overlook it, but people don't think about it. They're not programmed to think, ah, that's 20 years away, whatever. But it is significant and you need to put that into the pot and have a full understanding of what that is. And a lot of the time, people don't want you coming after their pension. So they might give over a bit more of their share in the family home in order for you to walk away after their pension. So they might give over a bit more of their share in the family home in order for you to walk away from their pension. Okay, because it's cleaner and that is very common.
Speaker 1:And is that? Because if you are getting part of their pension when you know they do retire, you're still part of their lives, because they see that money going out of their account every so. They'd rather actually take more of the family home and then, literally, when we're divorced, we're divorced and never to look at you again.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's and that's it and that's, it's cleaner. But pensions are all about the value and, depending on who you work for if you're the public or private sector, it's, it's. It's an absolute minefield. So you would somebody to, so you get a statement of benefits. If you have a pension, you'd get that every year and you know, depending on your age, you're kind of like, oh, there's nothing there, you know, I know, yeah, but that becomes the marker to look at what is in that pot and then how much of that has accrued during the marriage. So you need to look at that. But it's a significant. It can be a significant asset depending on the duration of the marriage.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's just something that you don't think about. Can we discuss the men? Because I did get a couple of messages in saying would you please discuss what happens to men in this situation? Because men feel that they don't get a look in, they feel they don't get access to their children, they feel the children are used as pawns and they feel that they're financially ruined after a marriage and the woman kind of gets to walk away. But then you've the other side of it where women feel the men don't pull their weight, they don't agree to childcare changes in terms of, say, if they agree to every second weekend and you know the woman wants to change it, they deliberately just say no, I'm not changing it ever, because they don't want to seem to be accommodating. So can we discuss all that and how people wade through that, but maybe deal with the men initially?
Speaker 2:please. Yeah, I mean, I act for loads of men, so as well as women, it doesn't matter to me who they are. But I would have nuggets of advice for people about depending on if there are kids. I'm always interested in if there are kids and how they are and how separation has been broken to them, because it's huge. And I say get them into rainbows in school because they need to process that and it's what is rainbows? It's a service in school where children of who have been recently bereaved or if their parents have split up, they can. It's a counselling service.
Speaker 2:They can talk to it and it's. It's very good for children to, I suppose, air their own concerns, because they are afraid to verbalise it at home, into mammy, because mammy might say well, did you say that to you? Know, johnny, that he's not going to see me again, and blah, blah, blah. So they need a safe space to talk about that, right? So going back to men, your question yeah, there is a perception. Perception and I suppose traditionally because we were, we as a society we had the primary carers were women, we weren't out working or we had part-time work. Women are now in their own careers in their own right.
Speaker 2:So family law has changed and access has changed. And access used to be in those situations kind of in every second weekend and a Wednesday on the week that you know isn't the weekend thing. And like I have to say, as a prescription, that drives me around the bend and I would say to everybody who comes to me what access do you want and what is feasible? And again that goes to mediation, like why wouldn't the two people that know the children the best have the input into the access arrangement? Don't you know what activities they're doing and what works? But I say access to both parents has got to be and is a good thing for the child, and you are moving a situation where the child is used to seeing both parents every single day and then you move to every second weekend and a non-Wednesday and it's very difficult, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's horrendous, but isn't it difficult to? It's difficult to like wade through it anyway. It's difficult to it's difficult to like wade through it anyway, because you know that seeing your child every single day for a dad could be, you know, your two hours in the evening time when you get home from work, but that's still there every single day. Access, and then so it must be hard especially if they move out of the home and they're not close for that to actually be arranged. I can understand how difficult it is.
Speaker 1:And those touch points, those like little bits, those little bits of access to your child, or those those small bits of minutes in the day where you can tuck them in or you can see them when they're eating their dinner or like and it's not like, oh, I have three hours to like to get all our week in and ask you all about what's been happening, because it's the everyday little things that they're missing out on, and the little fights in school or what they learned on the football pitch. So how do they get that? Is it just so difficult if there isn't?
Speaker 2:If there isn't agreement and if things are the mad and sad that we talked about, it's very hard to get to that place. There is a service called One Family where you can do co-parenting courses and again, I really recommend that, because separation is so difficult for all of the players involved, but it's just so difficult for the kids. And if you had agreement on this this is what we're going to do and we know we're not going to do that then at least you have some boundaries. It would be great. But it shouldn't be in the gift of the primary carer to give access. This is the child's right, the child's right to see both parents. It's not your gift to give to the other and it is used like that and I've seen it used like that.
Speaker 2:And people come in to me Now I give them the court's view and about access and my own view like that is not positive and we want to raise our children with love and but we want them balanced and we want that relationship, like your relationship with your parents, forms you, yes, you know. So if that's chaotic, then what are we doing for our kids? So, look, I know every situation is different and there are situations where there is abuse and you know so. It's not difficult. I understand that we don't live with unicorns and fairy tales and screaming.
Speaker 2:But it would be great if you could set out some principles about what you are going to do with the kids. And it's again it's like how you break it to them Because kids are fearful. It's like, oh God, so we're not going to live in this house. Will I have my own bedroom, like they have? Like very simple questions that probably can be, you know, answered in a decent way and in a nice loving way. But so it's not the primary care, it's gift, the access.
Speaker 1:Does there have to be a primary care?
Speaker 2:Well, on a 50-50 there isn't Okay, but generally there is. If the people can't live in the same area, you know, say, schools and stuff like that, like that all has to be figured out if you're going to leave the family home or if you can't buy out the other person, that has to be worked out. So it mightn't be feasible for a 50-50 access. If you're talking about a half an hour commute or an hour commute in traffic just so you can see them, it mightn't be fair on the child getting them up at half six in the morning so you can get them to their school, which is 45 minutes away or an hour away in traffic. You know that mightn't work either. So it does go to the financial picture how the financial picture works out.
Speaker 2:But for dad dad needs loads, as much access as he can get and look for that and as much access as he can get and look for that and as much access as he can commit to. And but also the maintenance. It can't be a tit for tat because you're not getting to see them, because you wanted to see them. Well, I'm not going to pay your maintenance this week and what is reasonable maintenance? Yeah, that comes up a lot. That comes up a lot and I can't give you an answer to that, sorry.
Speaker 1:Oh really, no, well it's just every situation is different. I will not be answering that Laura Is it taking on the amount of money that people earn and, obviously, the lifestyle that the children were used to before. Is that all?
Speaker 2:It's on with the available income and what's in that affidavit. It means that we talked about like is your, you know, gym membership plus your personal trainer, it's 60 euro a week. Is that reasonable now in your, in your new life? So I don't know. Like in the UK they have a system where they have a kind of a standard amount. I don't know what it is, but so it's very difficult for people to kind of go. Why don't we have that here?
Speaker 1:because every situation is different, so there's no there's no standard amount of money that's paid in England and then it doesn't really they have it on the income of.
Speaker 2:They have a percentage of that, but over here it's different, and so every situation is different.
Speaker 1:So it is annoying, but so two people could be separating and one could be getting more than the other in terms of maintenance, and there may be no reason why.
Speaker 2:Well, it could be in that situation, one person might have got the family home and the other person might be paying a mortgage, or you know the financial picture is.
Speaker 2:everybody's picture is different. So it's all taken into account, the maintenance is taken into account be paying a mortgage, or you know, the financial picture is, everybody's picture is different. So it's all taken into account, the maintenance is taken into account. And where people are living. So it's all put in the pot and you take it out and then you kind of go okay, if I'm going to get the family home and I have to take over the mortgage, well, this is the way I'm going to go. What maintenance do I need for that to happen? So you have to figure over the mortgage. Well, this is the way I'm going to go. What maintenance do I need for that to happen? So you have to figure out the different scenarios.
Speaker 2:OK, and then in the meantime, what you would look at is like OK, well, you've left the house, I still need to pay the mortgage, so I still need this amount, because we know how much it costs to run this house. So this is what I need from you. I only earn this. I'm going to put in this amount, so I need that from you.
Speaker 1:And what if they refuse to pay? Like you hear about maintenance being, you know, just not paid, or someone being left with a mortgage and the kids and you know, obviously, whether or not the person that's left still sees the kids they're not paying the maintenance. So how does it work? Like, how do you chase someone? For that is that. Another minefield, is another. Well, you can go to the district court.
Speaker 2:So that's a form maintenance and you can go to the district court for regulation of access. That's if. But if you have divorce or separation proceedings in being, that's a circuit court. That's the circuit court that will be determined. You can't go to the district court if you're in the circuit court already. So within the circuit court proceedings you could bring a maintenance application.
Speaker 1:And the maintenance application is only brought if someone isn't paying their maintenance. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it turns into a bit of a mini trial, because, remember what I said at the start, family law is really about who's going where with what, with old pile of motion stuck in it, right, okay, so and it is that?
Speaker 1:Oh my God, it just sounds like a nightmare.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is very, it is very tough. But so if you're bringing a maintenance application in the middle of the proceedings, it is looking at the financial picture and it's it can be a double-edged sword because, yeah, you might get maintenance but it mightn't be what you were looking at. And that's the order a judge will be looking at when the case has been heard or if the case has been settled. You know most cases will settle. They won't go on for hearing in front of a judge because we don't have enough judges in the country to listen to everybody's the breakdown of everybody's relationship.
Speaker 1:So most of them they'll go to mediation and they may not agree, and then they'll go to court, but they'll settle on the steps of the court, type thing. So why do they bother taking it that far? Could someone not tell them at the start you're going to settle anyway? Would you not just do it now? Would it not save loads of people, money and time and misery? It would.
Speaker 2:But when you're not ready to do it, you're not ready to do it. And if the other person isn't ready, you can't make somebody agree something. There's no agreement, there's no agreement and sometimes the other person is not ready to make that decision and you can't compel your client Like I couldn't, like I would know this is going to settle and there's no point in doing this exercise. There's no point in, you know, going bananas about this, that and the other, because it's just a waste of money. But if they want to do it, I can't make them do something they don't want to do. So all you do is advise as a solicitor and saying, well, that's not great. Like I'm not the type of solicitor and I say it on day one that writes two page letters about what happened at the weekend.
Speaker 1:Are there solicitors that do that? Yes, and what are your thoughts on them?
Speaker 2:Well, my thoughts are like my job. I see it as you're at A and I need to get to B, which is either divorced or separated, in as efficient a time and money as possible. So if we get distracted with other stuff, which is the behavioral stuff, and if we go off on tangents, then that's going to become expensive and we get distracted about that stuff instead of what needs to be sorted out. That's that is expensive. Like I heard something at the weekend where people, like someone, had spent hundreds of thousands on legals. Now there was a lot of money there, but I don't care how much money there was there. That's madness, madness. That's madness, madness and is there?
Speaker 1:are there, like there's some people suggesting that solicitors are cashing in on people's vulnerabilities and charging and off? Some are charging an awful lot, some take ages to get back to people. They, you know, there's a lot of paper pushing where I suppose the party doesn't feel that it's necessary. What are you, you know? Does that go on Like would you be in agreement that, to a certain extent, there is?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, some people might be instructing solicitors who aren't familiar with how to navigate family law, and there are practitioners that I would come up against who are not family law practitioners and who don't do it, and that becomes traffic because they don't know what they're doing. So how do you find someone that's good at what they're doing?
Speaker 2:Well that's the good thing you know well. Look, we're very informed now and there's a lot of information around. Like you should research who's going to look after you. And I would say, if you had a health concern, the first thing I would say to a friend of mine would be like, do you have confidence in who's looking after you? Okay, it's all about the confidence and if you do, great.
Speaker 2:So when people come to me, I would set it out and I don't sugarcoat things because there's no point. I don't want my client to have a huge fall. Then you never told me that I would have to get out of the family home, or you never told me this. I try to be very frank about how this is going to look, but then I set it out as what it does look like and my website has a guide to separation and divorce and the terms that I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:So we talked about earlier the family law civil bill, the affidavit of means, the affidavit of welfare. That's step one. We need to get to step four before you can either meet with the other side and try and settle the case. So, yeah, you do say let's try and settle it, but it can't be settled on day one when you go in to the legal side of it because you have to exchange that financial vouching documentation. Because if you come into me, laurie, and he says, oh, this is the deal, I'm going to get 70% of the family home and he's going to give me a thousand a month in maintenance, is that good? Is that good? And I'd be like, well, show me what does he earn, what's the financial picture? And let's look at it so that vouching has to be exchanged before anyone can meet.
Speaker 2:So let's say there are six steps in a normal family law case. If there's no delaying and dilly-dallying around, you can meet at step four when you've exchanged the financial documentation. So the delaying is so disheartening, but you have to. What I would advise people is like you have to hit the red button, you have to issue your proceedings because the time starts. Then you will. You will get to step six, but you have to keep pushing forward. So it's really important that you've got confidence in the person who's looking after you, that they are pushing it all the way along.
Speaker 1:And is it expensive then to change solicitor? If you don't, if you think, oh Jesus, this fella is just, it must be expensive to take all of those papers and get someone else to start reviewing it again. So I'd say, people just stick with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and look, whilst the like, it's not all about the solicitor doing a desperate job as well it could be that you can't agree it because there's no agreement, so you have to push it towards a hearing date. And it's only then, when you have a hearing date, that people actually kind of go oh Jesus, this is actually happening. I better engage with this. What the solicitor has been telling me all along is right, but now I'm going to take it on board, now I'm going to make decisions, now I'm going to make an offer, you know. So it can be just inching your way to that hearing date where people actually do business and engage with it.
Speaker 2:And it's generally not like the legal teams would prefer to be settling it at stage four, because then you've got it dealt with and by way of costs, it's a really difficult way to make a living out of people's emotional distress. So I don't in my practice I don't think like, oh great, in comes Laura, I'm going to make loads of money out of her misery, because it's hard work to do that, because you are dealing with a client who's emotional, and you know they're emotional and you know they have to make decisions, but they won't make decisions because they're too mad about why this, this, they're here in the first place. So you do kind of say, well, this is what it looks like, but just because you've said it doesn't mean that the client has taken it on board, because it might be too soon for them to take it on board. So our system is very different to the UK where you can get just divorced in 10 minutes. Okay, I jest about that, but it's very that sounds great, sounds like everyone wants.
Speaker 2:But it's very, but it is way quicker. But I don't think that quicker is better. I do think that people need time to process that and process what is happening. But expectations certainly need to be that things are not going to be financially rosy, unless you're talking on a big financial case, you know, unless people are very wealthy.
Speaker 1:And do you see people limping along because they just don't want to deal with it as well? Like you know, I've a few people in saying they've been separated for 15 years and they still haven't sorted out anything.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so it's so often the case that people are and they're waiting till the children are finished, they're leaving search and all that, and and they're waiting till the children are finished, they're leaving search and all that, and like they do say I told you. They said you know, I'm sorry, I didn't do this years ago, and like they just weren't ready to do it. So you do it when you're ready to do it, but it isn't easy stuff and that's why it's important to keep good people around you. And I always say stack up on vitamins.
Speaker 1:Really so yeah, no, because your immune system is shattered.
Speaker 2:You know you're not sleeping properly. You're worried out of your mind as well.
Speaker 1:It must be, it must yeah. I know and I know people that have gone through it. And what about when partners are being deliberately difficult and if they're trying to change the narrative, so say you, you want to divorce or separate them, and then they decide I'm not leaving the home. Um, so if you want to leave, you leave. And then you people living together that hate each other, that you know. If they can't leave the home, how is that resolved? How Well again.
Speaker 2:Nobody has to leave the home, and if they don't want it, they don't have to, but it doesn't mean that you have to stay married to them. So you can still. You still have to hit that red button. You have to go and issue the proceeding If you leave the home first, are you less entitled to it.
Speaker 1:There was this whole thing about if you leave the home, you've less entitlement to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a common I don't know idea years ago, but I don't think so. It comes into it, all goes into the pot.
Speaker 2:So if you are joint owners of the family home, you start off on a 50-50 basis, yeah, and if you're going If you are joint owners of the family home, you start off on a 50-50 basis, yeah, and if you're going to stay in the house to look after the children, you want to inch your way above 50% because you have to provide a house for the children. That's what you're going to try and do. If you leave the house, where are you going to go? Have you got a flat? How are you going to go? Have you got a flat? How are you going to fund it? So I don't think by leaving means that you're less entitled. You're legally entitled to 50% of it, but because everything else goes in the mix, you mightn't come out with 50% of it, but you might come out with 100% of your pension.
Speaker 1:But if the person that leaves, if the person leaves the home and just say moves in with their parents because they're nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, happens a lot.
Speaker 1:Okay. So then who? So then that home is still considered to be and they just say they have to stop paying the mortgage on it? Then, because they can't afford to pay the mortgage, and then, you know, pay rent if they've moved into a rental accommodation or if they're paying rent to the people that they're living with currently. How does that work out then? If they've to stop paying the mortgage and the other person basically has to pay the mortgage?
Speaker 2:Yeah, or if they can't pay the mortgage. If the mortgage isn't paid, then a whole different stressor comes into the party. So we now have the bank up unhappy about a mortgage that hasn't been paid. So in those circumstances, what I would say is that there needs to be agreement between both of the mortgage holders to go and agree with the bank on a moratorium or an interest only or something. But engagement, engagement, engagement, because it's a sorry mess when you have to deal with arrears on a mortgage and the arrears are paid first on the.
Speaker 2:You know so when you're selling that. So it's it's hard. It's hard to financially figure it out and that's why a lot of the time they one person does move in with parents but that is not sustainable, either into the longterm and depending on the age as well, or, like you know there is, the courts believe that we're all entitled to move on. So you know, just because you have a family and you're you know you want to break up and break out of your marriage Like that, you're not going to be held up and vilified by a judge for that. You're entitled to do that and to move on. So you don't have to live with your parents forever In that settlement you will be talking about.
Speaker 2:You know, well, I need to rent somewhere now. I need a two bedrooms apartment because I need to have, you know, little Johnny over and a sleepover, or little Katie or whatever. So their housing needs will also be considered and that's what I was saying about the qualifications for separation and divorce. It's proper provision for all parties and the court will look at everybody in this. They'll be looking at mom and dad, or dad and dad and mom. Whatever. They will be looking at everybody in this marriage. How are they and where are they going and how are they going to fare?
Speaker 1:on this.
Speaker 2:So that's the court's duty. So when you settle a case if you most do settle and you reduce it to writing and you sign it, you go in to rule that in front of a judge and the judge looks at that and that's them exercising their discretion. Because they need to figure it out, they need to see is everybody okay on this? Because that's the judge's function. So just because you've settled doesn't mean that it's going to be over the line. The judge has to sign off on it too. The judge has to rule it. So but they are concerned. So there used to be a view that you know mom is in the house, dad is gone and he can live with his parents and that's it, goodbye. But like that's not the case, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, so. But again, you can hear I keep saying it, and it's not, it's the money that will dictate a lot of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and what happens if, as I said earlier, someone changes their story, you know as in, they were abusive, or there's coercive control or there's all of this that's been going on and you know someone wakes up and finally realises they've been living with this for years and they want out. Um, but then there's intimidation as well. Then, just say, there's people coming to pick up children with you know friends or you know what would be, could be perceived as bodyguards, like how do people navigate through all that and that, that kind of behavioural problems that people might be dealing with. Does do the courts take that into account? Or is that all you know? He said? She said like, I mean, there's always two sides to every story and what some person might perceive as intimidation, another person might just need that backup. Or you know how does behaviour? How is it taken into account?
Speaker 2:It is taken into account if the case will go on for hearing and in those situations you might have to have an application in the middle of the case about something, and or the primary carer might be withholding access because of intimidation or because of what's been said, and there might be an access application in the middle of that and the judge might say the judge can't decide the access. They would appoint an expert and a section 47 or a section 32 report would be requested by the judge. Section 32 report is where the voice of the child is heard and a section 47 report is where the voice of the child is heard, and section 47 report is where the court orders a particular question is answered. Maybe it's about access. You know it could be.
Speaker 2:I don't want overnight access, I don't want him to have overnight access, and you know. So those kind of questions are put out to an expert and the expert would interview the child and the parents and then there's a report. These reports are expensive as well. They're, you know, I think, between three and five thousand euro.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, and it probably takes a long time to wait for as well.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, the appointments. It does take a long time and in the meantime you have somebody who's not having access. So it's really difficult for the person who's not having access. So it's really difficult for the person who's not having any access to the child. Okay, um so, but yeah, then it could come out in those reports what is happening about, if there is, you know, if the child has been told something about, you know mommy's doing this, mommy's doing that, or daddy's doing that or daddy's doing this, as in daddy's telling me that mommy is bad and doesn't love me anymore.
Speaker 2:Any, of that sort of stuff that could come out and report and there's recommendations from the expert and the expert would give that to the court and you know, in the main the courts will go with those reports and those reports are, you know, ordered frequently where you can't decide on access.
Speaker 1:But it's another expense. And then if people are mudslinging, so if people think it's in their interest to say, get a restraining order, a barren order against their husband, you know, because it looks better for them, like you know, does this happen where there's lies being told as well, or people are saying, oh, my wife's mentally unstable. Does that happen? Do you see that? And is that just more and more bumps in the road?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. And if there is violence in the home, of course you can always go to the district court and look for barring orders. So under the domestic violence act, so there's barring orders, there's safety orders, and one gets you out of the house and one prohibits you from intimidation or fear within the house, from putting the other person in fear. Yeah, they are. I would love to say that it is not abused, but I don't like to say either that it's only used to get the other person out. Oh no, I can imagine.
Speaker 1:I'm not and I'm not suggesting that, but it's just a few questions. Did come in about that saying you know I'm being deliberately portrayed as a crazy person, crazy lady. Or you know the man saying yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. Or you know my wife has suggested that I've, you know, been behaving badly in the home for years and you know I'd no clue that she thought this until now, until we were going through this. And how do we deal with it?
Speaker 2:And it's very difficult because in those situations there's only two people really that can say what has happened. They're the people that are involved and one person is saying something totally different to the other and it comes down to who the judge would believe. And you know what? I'm sure they don't get it right all the time and it's very difficult when you're on the other side of it and it's very difficult to come out of that to deal with what we need to deal with With. What are we going to do with the house? What to deal with what we need to deal with with? What are we going to do with the house? What are we going to do with the maintenance? You know so if somebody has accused you in the wrong of doing something and they are successful or not in their application, like, how do you move on to deal with the substantive stuff? It's very difficult.
Speaker 2:So I would not, like I would be horrified if somebody abused that legislation. Domestic violence legislation is there for people who need it and it should not be abused by anyone. And the same way that the control. But there is control and some people if I do your role for everyone who says I'll never divorce you, I'll never. You'll never get me out of the house, you'll never do this or we'll never sell that house. You know I wouldn't be doing this. So there's lots of stuff said by the unwilling party. Yes, and it's very important that the person who's listening to that doesn't take heed of it. Okay, unless it's threats, and then you need to obviously go to the guards. But you know? So take your advice from someone who is qualified to give it and who's accountable for the advice. They give.
Speaker 1:So, no matter what if someone, no matter if you want to divorce someone or you want to separate and they say to you I will never do this, I will make your life a misery, you still can get that divorce. It probably will be miserable. It will be miserable but you will get it because you're constitutionally entitled to it.
Speaker 2:So once you get to step one and you keep moving forward, you'll get to step six, you'll get your hearing date. But I'm not saying that when you get to your hearing date, it's this euphoric moment and it's like yay, it's, it's, it's not that. Um. Well, it is for some people now, but they, they have had their own journey, you know, and it's probably rubber stamping, something that was difficult back in the day, and they're now like, oh yeah, grand, you know. So everybody's situation is so different. But what complicates it is debt. And if there isn't, you know, incomes, if both aren't earned good incomes, and if the children are young, you know that's, that's hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and it all seems to come down. A lot of it seems to come down to money and the splitting of assets, doesn't it? And then, obviously, the access to the children. In an ideal situation, we wouldn't own anything together, would we? Yeah, we'd just all live in you know, nicely rented accommodation, that isn't. That's very affordable. You know in some countries, divorce is much easier when there isn't this whole tie to property. Yeah, Isn't it?
Speaker 2:I had somebody who was Scandinavian and says their arrangement was that I live in my house and he lives in his house, and you know, that's our arrangement and we come together when we need to. That's lovely Sounds ideal.
Speaker 1:We need to take that on board. There's enough houses to allow that in Irish society? No, but yeah. And then what if, when people are older and they're separating Because I know this is happening a little bit more nowadays where they're in their late 60s, early 70s? Yeah, that's crazy, that's a tough one and a sad one as well. But how is that?
Speaker 2:Well, in that situation it would be rare to have a mortgage. Okay, so you are talking about the sale of the family home. So what happens at any family home is like you buy me out, I buy you out, or we sell the house. Okay, and that is either agreed or it will be ordered. And it could be that the judge will order it in five years time. But the judge will order it in five years time. But they tend to not go beyond or like it won't be in 15 years time because you'd be financially linked.
Speaker 2:So with the older couple you'd be either if there's a buyout or the house is sold. And where are you going to live then you know? So that's what I would be saying, because you can't get a mortgage. So what savings are you? Have you been in touch with the auctioneers locally? Are you talking about moving out of the area? Where are your kids? How's that going to affect you? Is there anyone that can give you some money? Like I always say to people when they come in, it's like can your family give you any money?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Not me but for you trying to get a house. I suspect there's a lot of couples that are just living together but separate lives because they can't afford to move out of the home and they just, you know, they decide that that's the way they're going to live.
Speaker 2:They're muddling along yeah, no, absolutely. And that becomes. There is a moment then that becomes the straw, whether it is I'm going to be 50 or you know, I can't believe you knew there was no hot water or something, something, something kind of like fairly innocent. Then it's like that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah that was it. And um, or other people noticing you, how you are and how you are together. You know, sometimes you can kind of like people are, yeah, they're living together and they're married on the outside, and someone might say a pal of yours might say God, you're not yourself when you're around, okay. And then that would say Jesus, I didn't realise, everybody else knew it. I knew it. Okay, because you naturally don't say Jesus. I didn't realise, everybody else knew it. I knew it. But you know, because you naturally don't say God, I want to separate. You don't wake up and start getting formal about your life. Like people's marriages break down over time generally, unless there is a catalyst like an affair or something, you find out something.
Speaker 1:Yeah actually the whole affair thing and, like you said, a catalyst. Now I have had some people say they were literally blindsided. They were told I'm gone, yeah, and they literally did not see it coming.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's only maybe, when they look back on maybe the last few months, that there was a bit, there was nasty behaviour that they probably put down to stress, and you know, covid or whatever. Yeah, yeah, so does that happen a lot and how you know?
Speaker 2:obviously that's absolutely traumatic if someone doesn't see it coming, and is that usually down to your affairs or yeah or it could be that this was always the way we ran our marriage and that I wasn't kind of like I'm not, naturally, you know, where are you, where have you been? Or blah, blah, blah. You know, he did his thing and he did his golf and I had my whatever, yeah, so like I did my thing, you know that sort of thing, and I didn't see any problem with that because that's the way we always worked. And then it's the bombshell and that's devastating because it becomes.
Speaker 2:And then you might hear about kind of another life for somebody else and it's like, oh, my god, it's really really difficult for people going into, you know, their retirement years with they kind of like, well, I've done the tough stuff, I've reared the kids, we paid the mortgage, we did, you know, and now we're here and now I'm looking forward to kind of like relaxing a bit with my partner and the rug is pulled from them. That's really hard because then that goes, you know, this sense of security is like God, where am I going to live? Where am I going to? I have to move out of this area where all of my yoga friends are, you know it like that is devastating. So and that's where sad, sad is 10 and sad will stay sad for a long time.
Speaker 2:You know, and, um, you know I, I can't help with that. The only it's practical advice. It's my strength, you know it's. What can you buy in this area? A lot of people's housing needs, of course, would change anyway over time. If you have reared a family, the family home is probably it could be too big, it would be too hard to maintain. So your housing needs are probably a smaller house or an apartment, you know. But if that decision is put on you and you're not ready for it.
Speaker 2:It's very difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it does have some amazing stories and do with the whole affair thing or the adultery. I suppose adultery is the more the legal term. Are people looked upon poorly for that like, are they, I suppose, penalised if they go off and have an affair and decide to leave, or is it just look? This is the situation the marriage is broken down. That's it, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, we have that no fault system, which is where you try and put. You try and slot the separation into if you can. It's not behaviors linked but if the affairs are relevant then you put them in. But it would be wrong of me to say to a client that that is going to be adjudicated upon by a judge and a judge is going to have going to say something about it because the chances of that happening are quite remote, because most cases will settle. So you're not going to get this sense of justice. This is not about justice. This is about working out where we're going to, who's going where with what.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I think if people remember that as well, it's important, but they want it.
Speaker 2:They want it somehow and it may take a very long time for them to get that. And that's part of the healing stuff and I don't want to come over on New Age now with new age now, the healing well, no, I think we need a bit of healing.
Speaker 1:We'd be here for six hours talking about healing if, if my confession boxes or any of the you know the stories I've heard from other friends that have gone through it. It's, it's a long process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's really hard where one of the other, the other party, moves on really quickly and you're like still bunny in headlights saying, have I just been run over? Yeah, the person is off in a new relationship, living the dream, and you're picking up the pieces from your with your kids and like it's not exactly you know. Oh god, I'm going to hold on to the moment because you've told me, hilary, that the kids will remember that you looked after them and that it was you and the other person is missing out on that relationship with the kids Because that's not kind of like, oh God. Well, that's brilliant. You know it's so hard, but there is. If the other person goes off and does that. And certainly this is one thing I will say for your listeners if you are in that moment where your relationship is broken down and you want to separate, do not bring a third party into this, because it only becomes about that third party. Everything becomes about that person.
Speaker 1:It's really In what way Can you explain that a? Little more, because it's you can't.
Speaker 2:So if I'm married and my husband goes off and we break up and he meets someone else and grand I'm shocked, excited on that person, yeah, and access is like oh, she going to be there and okay, you know you're not, you can't give us, you can't pay for swimming lessons for Katie, but you can go off on weekends away with her. You can't do this, you can't do that. You know it becomes about that because you're so sad because he's so happy.
Speaker 1:That's like normal life, though, isn't it? You're just going off and playing golf, isn't it well for him? Well, I'm here cooking the Sunday lunch. Yeah, I know, yeah, I know, but I can, I can. You can really understand how someone would feel really pissed off.
Speaker 2:Oh 100%.
Speaker 1:It is, but I'm not saying, you're not entitled to move on.
Speaker 2:And when you're separated, yes, you are separated, but if you haven't the formal stuff done, then don't be surprised if the other person goes bananaramas because of your newfound happiness. You need to get the boring, tedious legal stuff and very difficult stuff done, I think first, but here I am the ultimate nerd, you know. You know, just the ruiner of happiness. This is what I would say and that's my guide, but of course I deal with people who have moved on and that's great.
Speaker 1:I say fairly quickly as well sometimes who tends to move on the quickest? The men or the women. Do we even need an answer for that?
Speaker 2:No, we won't answer that.
Speaker 1:We don't want any bias?
Speaker 2:No, we don't, but yeah, so it's other parties distract what the work that needs to be done and it'll make it more expensive, it'll make it more torturous and it really does go into the healing part of it. Like, especially if you've got kids, you're going to be linked together forever. Whether you do Holy Communions or confirmations or not, there are going to be moments in that child's life where you are going to be in the same room and that room is not going to be a hall or an arena. Yes, you know it's going to be small and is that going to be riddled with a bad atmosphere, toxic, because of stuff? Like? Time does heal, but if, if what you've done was awful, then it'll take a lot of time to heal that wound and it's just been.
Speaker 1:It's about a bit of cop on and a bit of sense, because this is emotionally driven and in terms of men that come to you and women that come to you, do they come to you like? Is there like a general way that women will come and what they're looking for and what men will come on what they're looking for and what men will come on what they're looking for, or is everyone just completely different? You know, are women more concerned about certain things than men?
Speaker 2:yeah, and you know we have women who are, you know, working full-time now and all that. But women do like certainty and they are, oh, where am I going to live and how's it going to work out with the childcare of the kids? How am I going to do all that? So it is financial concerns. For men, it is financial as well, because suddenly you know they're like, oh god, this is all up for grabs. So everyone's interest is financial. But also, I will say, at the heart of it is concerns about kids, because it's such, you know, a tough thing and she will penalise me because I've left the marriage and I won't see, you know, my child and it's huge, you know, and it is hurting you where, at the point where you're most vulnerable.
Speaker 2:So, and and a lot of people might have stayed in those marriages because of that, because knowing that. So it's rare that you you don't know the person. Like you know somebody's financially savvy, you know they could be sneaking, hiding money and that sort of the person. Like you know somebody's financially savvy, you know they could be sneaking, hiding money and that sort of thing. You know it. I'd love to have money to hide.
Speaker 1:I know it'd be great, okay, so yeah so.
Speaker 2:so if, if, if, your instinct says, if I tell them I want to separate, he's suddenly going to start hiding money. What I would say first is try and find out what's there Like look at policies you know around the house, see if there is, you know you're not entitled, you're not allowed to open another person's mail. I'm not saying that, but if it was, if there was a home file there or a folder with details of policies, then certainly so you can't steam open envelopes? Then no, no you can't do any of that.
Speaker 1:People I wanted to discuss a little bit people that are not married but are living together and their rights, and then also same sex couples as well, and are their rights any different to? No, they're not. No, Okay.
Speaker 2:So the people who are living together, we have a thing called the Cohabitation Act, which is way longer is the most convoluted name ever. So that came in in 2010 and people would say, oh, am I not your common law wife or whatever. So that common law wife thing was just a term that was bandied around. So we have cohabitants now. So if you're cohabiting with somebody living in sin back in the day, if you're doing that We've all done a bit of that over the years, haven't we? So in order to be a qualified cohabitant, that's when you are entitled to look for redress. So qualified cohabitant is if you have children together and you're living together for two years two years and children and you're in a committed, loving, intimate relationship. And if you don't have children together, it is five years. So then you become a qualified cohabitant and like, honestly, when people come in to see me, there's like a single marriage, divorced form or separated formally, illegally. You know, cohabitant, qualified cohabitant. So I just kind of say you're single and married, like what's the story? Yeah, and then a lot of people say, oh, we're living together. And then I kind of go are you living together? You know, blah, blah, and I just poke around it, but the qualified cohabitant is two years, kids are five years. No kids right.
Speaker 2:So when that relationship breaks down, you are entitled to look for redress, which is the same orders you'd look for in in marriage about property, pensions, maintenance, if you can prove you are financially dependent on the other. And the financially dependent is the kind of hurdle you have to jump through, and that's wasn't there. That's not there for spouses, for example. For spouses, you know maintenance, you don't have to jump through hurdles. Your hurdle is you got married, so you have spouses rights, but the cohabitants are. You have to prove that you're financially dependent, so it's less common. Okay For so. And maintenance for spouses is less common than it used to be because a lot of people are working.
Speaker 1:Okay so, but that's, that's the Family, the home, the rights to the home. That's separate, is it? If someone isn't married but they've bought a house together?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that means you're you means you own the house jointly, depending on how you bought it, but it's probably jointly and that has to be sorted out. But that's a conveyancing transaction, if you like. It's kind of like well, are you going to buy me out or am I going to buy you out?
Speaker 1:Is there tax applicable to that? That wouldn't be applicable if they were married.
Speaker 2:No, there won't be taxes on that unless well, it depends if you're well, I suppose if you own a house together and one is buying the other out, you can do it in a way that it can be oh God, I was trying to find the words. There are certain stamp duty certificates that you can put in, okay, but generally it is about if you have a child together. You know what's happening with the child and what's happening with the maintenance, and the maintenance will be paying the mortgage, so that can be viewed as maintenance.
Speaker 2:You know maintenance and the maintenance will be paying the mortgage, so that can be viewed as maintenance you know, contributions towards the mortgage, because that's, you know, putting a roof over the child's head, so that goes to maintenance, you know. So those kind of things, but you also. This is now. People don't realise this and they definitely don't come to you about this, but this was put in the legislation so you can contract out of your rights in um to to look for redress. So say, if you're going out with someone, can you imagine how romantic this would be? Okay and just saying, yeah, I really like laura and you know I'm delighted I like you too, hillary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's great so listen, loving our relationship, but if it breaks down, I want us to sign up to an agreement where you go your way and I'll go my way. We're not financially linked, you're not going to come after me for anything and I don't go after you, is that like a pre-nup?
Speaker 2:it's, it's kind of like that and again you have to exchange financial information. I've only done given in 2010,. I've done three of them. So, like people don't do them because you imagine it, it's like how do you mean? You're immediately suspicious. You're like you're thinking are you breaking up with me?
Speaker 1:You want me to do?
Speaker 2:this and it's like, so like it's not a natural way of going back.
Speaker 1:Is it usually people that have loads of money that do that though?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, or people that are mature, you know, in their 60s, 70s, might, you know, might have been widowed or divorced or something, are in a new relationship and want whatever they have to go to their children, okay, and they don't want. And their children are concerned. They're like what?
Speaker 1:I'm sure it's the children that are concerned, and it's kind of like.
Speaker 2:that's appalling. Don't get me started on that, but so that would.
Speaker 1:I've done it for those God we have to leave and talk about those kind of situations, because I can only imagine I know, you know and I know people that have gone through that. Yeah, and then someone for 20 years and they have a house together and kids together. Are they less financially stable than people that would have been married?
Speaker 2:Well, it depends on their financial situation. Okay, because are they financially dependent on the other? And if they are, then they can claim their redress.
Speaker 2:But you know, are they working, so where are the kids? You know, are they working, so where are the kids? So you can kids maintenance for the children which we didn't, I didn't say is 18 are from full-time education, 23. So there is a cutoff for maintaining kids 23. So the person that's paying the maintenance goes okay, I'm paying it for the next six years, I know, and then after that I'm not paying maintenance. So there is an increasing trend that they do not want to maintain a spouse or the other partner because you maintain them until they die or they remarry. So that's why any maintenance that is paid generally now it's for the children, because the children it will expire at 23 maximum.
Speaker 1:And can I ask you about that? That is important. And can I ask you about the maintenance? So is the maintenance for food and clothes, yeah. And what about education? Because you know the way the educational needs will change as they go through the years and I know that people have agreed to maintenance and then that's it and they think, well, that's it forever, although I might decide to send my child to a fee paying school, or I might decide to send them to Tim Whistle lessons, like, where does the educational maintenance begin and end?
Speaker 2:So what you would look for is the maintenance maintenance sum for feeding and clothing the children. Then you would look for 50% of extracurricular and mental and medical and dental costs Free paying schools and things like that. Yeah, if this finances allow it, go for it, but there might be an arrangement where it's 50-50, you know so, depending on all that, but generally you'd have a 50% 50-50 on medical, dental, extracurricular, and the extracurricular should be agreed in advance, okay, and so like that can be a major.
Speaker 1:I say that can be very messy because you know someone's going for swimming lessons and swimming lessons are okay, but say, like you know, ballet, piano, swim and lessons are okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, but say, like you know, ballet, piano, guitar, tin whistle, mandarin. You know it's like okay, come on, yeah, perspective. And also you'd look for and again, this is, it depends on the parties you look for you would look for back to school expenses 50% of those because they're expensive.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, primary school now there's no books thanks to the budget. But and Christmas? You need to talk about Christmas, which nobody wants to talk about, christmas when they separate because it's too emotive to talk about it, like where is Christmas going to take place, and blah blah. But the expense of Christmas needs to be factored in and people need to be sensible about it, because either the kids are going to get two windfalls, two separate presents which is that sensible when there may not be enough money anyway to you know? But so it needs a conversation and that's where mediation can help with sorting out these situations.
Speaker 1:Even who has the kids on Christmas Day and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how that's going to work. So, but how is it going to work for the expenses? So, back to school and Christmas expenses, extracurricular, medical and dental they are kind of extra stuff.
Speaker 1:And they need to all be sorted out in advance, because you can't just suggest that you know they're going to take up Mandarin and the other person's going to be happy to pay for that. Yeah, because they won't pay for it.
Speaker 2:And then you'll be saying, oh, is that a breach in the order? And I'm like, well, it was agreed extracurricular, was that agreed?
Speaker 1:No, well then you know Okay, so you have to go to the. So technically, you know, it's not just done and dusted. Post-divorce, you need to be constantly having the, you need to be constantly engaging with people. Really, it's certainly financial.
Speaker 2:It is and it is. It's like such further access or such further issues as can be agreed between the parties. Because if you think about it, like your four-year-old and your eight-year-old are totally different. Like your eight-year old is probably doing, you know a couple of activities anyway, so that might impede on the access that you agreed it for. Because, like, saturdays is now GAA or something, so you have to move things around so things aren't set in stone.
Speaker 2:People need to embrace this change and, you know, move with it. But and like, if, if, little Katie is sick, they can't go on access, so you have to arrange access in lieu of that, so they can't be sick for every access. No, you know. So like that again. Do you see that? Yeah, oh yeah, it's awful. And and birthday parties are things that are arranged, or weekends away to celebrate Nana's birthday, and then the access oh, katie can't go because she's sick and it's like it's huge. But that goes to making the other person again the mad. So they won't agree what needs to be agreed because of the tit for tat that's at play there.
Speaker 1:But that's so sad, isn't it? It's really sad.
Speaker 2:It's so sad and like if I had you know, honestly, I've seen so many things played out so badly in respect to that whole access space. It's really sad.
Speaker 1:And those reports.
Speaker 2:When you read them, you know it's.
Speaker 1:And it's those crucial years that parents are missing out on their children, then those, and it can be very sad and then and then sometimes they might just feel, look, it might be just easier for everyone if I just walk away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I can understand that, because if you're waiting on a Section 47 report, and you're waiting on a back.
Speaker 1:Can you remind us what a Section 47 report is?
Speaker 2:This is a report that's ordered by the court to look into the welfare or to look into a particular question that might need to be asked. Generally it's in respect of access.
Speaker 1:Is it easy?
Speaker 2:for the man? Yeah, generally it is. Or you know you can agree everything but say overnights. I don't want overnights. You can have as much access as you want, but I don't want her to have overnight.
Speaker 1:And why wouldn't someone want their child to have overnights?
Speaker 2:Because you know they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not. They mightn't like your mother because you're living with your. You're back living with your mother and your mother is giving me daggers anytime I see her, just because we've split up. So I don't like your mother, so you're not having access.
Speaker 2:Like loads of reasons you know. But again back to it, it's about the child's right to have this access and like it's not normal to be just around the park. You know, three to five, or you know you do need to have a new relationship with mom, a new relationship with dad post separation, and if that is only kind of, you know, oh it's home time because it's eight o'clock, oh well, we're in the middle of the movie. You know it's really restrictive, really restrictive.
Speaker 1:so so you advise people to come to their own kind of arrangements with this, and you know your own kids better than any judge will, better than any expert will, you know.
Speaker 1:So it's at best, but I understand there are situations where that doesn't work and people can just be so, it can just be just so difficult that they can't see beyond that either. And then you know, if you allow, if you say, oh well, look, you know it's fine If you are watching a movie, then you don't have to have them back by eight, but then they're back at 12. Or it's like oh look, can we just have an overnight because they're going to be going to bed late, and then those kinds of things creep in. I can understand how this is just a minefield. And then breastfeeding mothers how does that work?
Speaker 2:Oh God, that is really tough. And it's tough when you're in front of a judge that doesn't understand it. As a pumper and a breastfeeder, as someone who was going around the forecourts with my pumping machine.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can imagine.
Speaker 2:Oh, I tell you, your case is on in 10 minutes, Hilary Meanwhile your LV is going brr brr brr, a true story. But yeah, so that is really hard and depending how long you're breastfeeding for. So, but in that situation, could you pump to, is the baby able to to take from a bottle, and if not, you're going to have to facilitate access in some way, but you'd have to be nearby. It's really hard, okay, but you're not talking about, you know, putting the baby on formula just for an overnight access.
Speaker 2:Like that's what you're talking about a young baby or a young toddler. So that would be would have to be worked out. There might be a report that would have to be put in for that, but it won't be seen Again. It depends on attitudes towards things and towards your attitude to breastfeeding and how informed somebody is breastfeeding and how informed somebody is about it, and how informed a judge is about it, because there might be a view that food is food. So you know and that would be very, very difficult.
Speaker 2:So if you were breastfeeding and you were passionate about it and you would want to be bringing information with you, to inform whoever's around you and whoever's your advocate on it, okay, and then same-sex couples do.
Speaker 1:They have as much rights to children as so, even the whole surrogacy thing and all that is there. Loads of grey area there, or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when they split up, they are the parents of the children, so it is. It's the same stuff that has to be sorted out. Surrogacy is a whole different kind of worms. Um, so that that isn't a relationship that has broken down. And if it's a relationship that has broken down, and if it's a relationship that has broken down between the surrogate and the parents, no, sorry, what I mean?
Speaker 1:just to qualify that. What I mean is the whole surrogacy thing. If one parent is the biological and the other parent isn't. Is there law and legislation in place there?
Speaker 2:Well, the other person would be a guardian, presumably they would have sorted that out, appointed a guardian, so do they have as much rights as a biological parent. Yes, Well, they have the rights of a guardian and the guardian does have the rights to access with the child. So, again, it would depend on where the relationship started, if it was a cohabitant or if they are married. And if they are married, that's the starting point. And the child, as long as they're the legal guardian, then you look for access and you pay maintenance.
Speaker 2:You know it's the same stuff that needs to be determined. But yeah, relationships are complicated, aren't they?
Speaker 1:Well, it is, and it's all that. It's that whole thing that this is a contract and it's based on love, which brings with it so many emotions and so many problems when it breaks down. And you know, we could talk for hours about it. I'm just wondering is there anything else that sticks out in your mind that people should know about? I'm just rifling through these questions here to see that I didn't miss anything important that people should actually really consider.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I suppose the tips are try the mediation. It's free, because it makes sense and it is the courage to bring the reluctant person to the party with. It's free. Why wouldn't we do it? So, mediation, but if it doesn't work? It doesn't work, Then you've no choice but to go legal.
Speaker 2:Don't listen to the other person saying I'll never divorce you or you'll never have anything. Blah, blah, blah. Don't listen to their words as true. Blah, blah, blah. Don't listen to their words as true. Go to somebody who is qualified to give you advice. Keep good people around you and it's not anybody else's business but yours.
Speaker 2:Stack up on the vitamins I say that every time and understand. Have a roadmap as to where you are now and where you want to be. Also, you need to start informing yourself financially about matters about the other person's finances. Find out how much they're earning their pensions, any savings, Inform yourself about that and also go to a broker to see how much you can borrow. And also go to a broker to see how much you can borrow, and then you know I can get a 150,000 mortgage or 250, whatever it is. Then you'll have to start looking at houses or apartments where that money will get you housing, and does that require you to leave the area you're in? So you're talking about changing schools. So when's the best time to do that? So they're all the questions that will need to be asked along this way.
Speaker 2:And go and do a co-parenting course. Try and get the other person to do it. It will be great because the children will benefit from that. Get the children into a rainbows program. Tell the teachers that you've split up and those kind of those parameters are very important to set out as to what you will do and not do for the kids. Access is for the children, it's not your gift to give it. Access is for the children, it's not your gift to give it. And maintenance, again, is for to maintain the house and the family. It's not spent on hairdressers and fake tan or holidays away.
Speaker 2:So if mad and sad is at 10, for you or for the other person, it will be slow and it will take time, but you will get there as long as you keep moving forward. Go to a family law solicitor, not just any solicitor, and you know, we don't go to a nail bar now without checking to see what Google says about them. You know, so do do. Yeah, I mean, people do get recommendations as well, but only if it's a, if it's a somebody you trust. Um, so those those kinds of things and and like mind yourself, get stacks of counselling, get as much counselling as you can get. Even if you're having good days, you do need it, yeah, so, um, so that's it.
Speaker 1:and like really mind yourself no, that's really really good advice. Can I just ask you one thing that I forgot to ask if someone decides to represent themselves, can that delay the process? Because you know they want? Look, they're just happy to take it all the way to the nth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would obviously advise don't do that, because I don't think they'll do themselves. You know, I don't think they'll do as good a job as if you are legally advised and I think they'll do themselves a disservice. These are technically final orders and they're serious orders and have huge implications for your life going forward. Divorce Okay, so you should try and get legal advice, but of course it's your right to do so. But you will not be familiar with the court setting and it's an intimidating world, the court setting. So to be in a very hostile or strange environment around a very emotive subject is difficult to do as the lay litigant.
Speaker 1:So I wouldn't advise it, the lay litigant being someone who's representing themselves.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I wouldn't advise it. We didn't say either. I didn't mention that there is legal. The Legal Aid Board is available for people who meet a certain income threshold. I'm not really sure about that, but you can do that test online.
Speaker 1:The Legal Aid Board, it's means tested, and they take on cases for people who meet that income threshold, who can't afford a private solicitor and then one final thing before I ask my two final questions if someone, if people, separate, can they buy assets post separation, prior to divorce, and the spouse or ex-spouse not have any rights?
Speaker 2:to that. Yeah, so if they were doing something in separation and their separation agreement, we would want what's called deed of waivers. So it means that I'm waiving any right I have to any property you own in the future and you're waiving a right to any property I hold in the future.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's. And do people happily sign that, or do they rather maybe cling on because they think that the person might come into a windfall and therefore be able to, or does that just delay processes again? It's kind of done as a standard now.
Speaker 2:So, because people need to move on, okay, that's what our system now is designed to do for us to move on. Okay's what our system now is designed to do for us to move on.
Speaker 1:Ok, that's good news. It's been really enlightening actually learning all about that, yeah it's sad, very sad. It's sad and I don't think there's any. There's no winners in it at all.
Speaker 2:Really there aren't, but I suppose we have evolved, Laura, from where we were, where we weren't allowed to get separated. I mean, the separation act only came in in 1989, I think it's crazy, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Divorce in 1996.
Speaker 2:So we have evolved and we do have options now and there isn't that stigma attached to it. And I know there is that personal trauma but there isn't that. You know, what did she hear? Did she see everyone? Now she's separated or he's separated? I know that. You know. Did you see everyone? Now she's separated or he's separated, like there isn't that labelling and it's just sad. It's not a failure that your marriage hasn't worked out it just hasn't worked out, but there is life beyond it.
Speaker 1:There is and I know I got some people in saying you know it can be difficult. You can lose friends along the way, you can lose family members along the way. Obviously you know in-laws and things like that, and then also you know it can be a very lonesome place if you're trying to raise children and work and go through this. So, like what you said, surround yourself by people that love you and have your best interests at heart.
Speaker 2:Isn't that right, without a doubt, and it is lonely and when you are looking after the children it's like it's very hard to move on sitting in your sitting room. It's like who's knocking on the door, like no one. It's very, very lonely. So that's why you do need to get as much counselling, because that is tough stuff and it's tough financially and there aren't that many people who would know somebody who would be able to give you a dig out to the tune of 20, 30, 40 grand to help you buy a house. You know that isn't available for most people, so it's a difficult space, for sure. But there is life after that, you know, and that's why you have to look at you are at A, what does B look like? Okay, and keep moving forward.
Speaker 1:Is there an average cost for a separation, divorce, or is it like how long is a piece of string depending on how long they drag it out?
Speaker 2:for it is a piece of string but there should be visibility around costs and you know consent can be, you know, two grand and an acrimonious case can be, you know, 50 grand. You know. And, by the way, if it was 50 grand, you'd know everything about me and I would know everything about you, because I certainly that kind of work isn't what I would look for, because it's so difficult that means that we can't even agree that today is Wednesday. You know what I mean. Yeah, so like that's just desperate sort of work, okay, but you would. Your solicitor will give you visibility around costs, what it should look like, but I would say the average is more 10 grand plus your barrister, rather than the 50 grand or the 100 grand. Okay, you know, and if it's consent, brilliant. That's why I'm saying go to the free, go to the free mediation, so you can get it done, okay, and your solicitor should be able to give you an upfront costing for their own.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you should be full visibility on what your solicitor is going to cost you and then just whatever hours are added on to that. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And look, if anybody wants to just look on my website on the guide, just because the terminology is intimidating and when you're in there pouring your heart out to your solicitor, like they're talking legal stuff and family law, civil bill oh God, what was that again?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just have a look at it.
Speaker 1:What is?
Speaker 2:your website. It's the leighywadeie, leighywadeie, leighywadeie.
Speaker 2:It's on my my Instagram is Hilary O'Connor Solicitor, so it's on my bio there. So it's just I. I actually put that up because I realized the same questions and when my clients were my clients and I was navigating the way, they were kind of like, oh, what's the next step? And I of like, oh, what's the next step? And I went like, how did I not think of this? Oh, I don't know, I just put up the guide so I send it out to people as when they come on board as clients, and it is just kind of a useful tool as to what it's like. I mean, it doesn't take away the hardship or the pain, but at least you know what it looks like.
Speaker 1:I'll put it in the notes as well. Okay, so we'll wrap it up with my two questions that I ask all my guests what advice would you give young people today, apart from getting a prenup? Oh, actually, hang on.
Speaker 2:One second Are prenups recognized in Irish law. It's a contract, but you, in order to do it, you'd have to have full visibility of the finances. Okay, like it's hard. Look, they're not favoured because it's like, almost like, when this doesn't work out, you'll be getting nothing Right, because we have legislation which recognises spouses and your rights and stuff like that. So they're not, you know.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But like I've come across one.
Speaker 1:Okay In kind of 18 years. You know Okay, okay, in kind of 18 years. You know, okay, grand, okay. So what piece of advice would you give young people today, and what do you think the meaning of life is?
Speaker 2:They're toughies now. Well, the young people. Okay, I think you need two good friends. You don't need 20 friends or 10 friends. Two good friends will see you right. And you don't have to be comfortable in every room you go into, and if we all belonged to every room it would be a very dull world. So being not belonging somewhere is okay too. So it's just I feel sorry for especially I'm talking to teenagers really, rather than young people Teenagers have a tough time in that whole identity and feeling. You know, am I okay and I'm, oh God, I'm not the most popular person, or I don't have 20 friends, and you know that kind of thing. I think two good core friends will see you right and just, it's okay to stand out and it's okay not to, to not go along with everything. The person that kind of says oh no, that's not for me. You know, the road less travelled is far more interesting, isn't?
Speaker 1:it. Yeah, no, absolutely, and I very much agree with that whole friends thing too. You have loads of people that you know and get on well with, but I think, like you said, if you have two people you can really rely on. Yeah, and reveal the ugly side of yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the big reveal. That's brilliant because that's normally reciprocated. So you see the other person in their rawest sense as well. And it's like, oh, that stuff goes deep. It does, doesn't it? That's where the belly laughs come from, isn't it? I'm thinking back to a few things now yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:Meaning of life, laura, I suppose it's like what is your life? And that evolves over time, doesn doesn't it? And I suppose the space I'm in in my life is kind of like what's important to me and it's oh, it's, it's probably the same for you, it's who's, who's with me and you know, um, and am I living my life in accordance with my values? And at times you you kind of go. That didn't sit well with me and I went along with it and I shouldn't have. So it's about making sure you're aligned to your values and trying to leave a good imprint in the world. So, whether it's just with your family, your work, yeah, that's kind of leaving somewhat of a little legacy.
Speaker 1:Isn't that right? Yeah, legacy of love, that's. I love it. Legacy of love by Hilary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as she came in and talked about the destruction.
Speaker 1:I know, but, but. But isn't that what life's about? You know absolutely and there is and it's important people know there is life beyond separation, divorce, and you can have a happy and fulfilling life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:If you just bloody well media and try and get on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's all about putting that key in that front door, yeah, and knowing what's behind. It is kind of peace, or the kind of life you want to live now, you know on and yeah, it's all about getting that space.
Speaker 1:Hilary, it's been an absolute pleasure. I'm sure that this podcast will have enlightened and helped a lot of people, and thank you so much for giving me your time.
Speaker 2:Oh, I hope it does, and thanks so much for having me, thank you.
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