Franchise Friday – Episode 216 with Jeffrey Polino from The Alternative Board

In this episode, Melissa Pang talks with Jeffrey Polino from The Alternative Board.

About Jeffrey Polino: I have a very interesting position and role at The Alternative Board: I am charged with the responsibility for innovation and all that it brings.

Here at TAB, we bring together business owners, presidents, and CEOs of non-competing businesses to overcome challenges, seize new opportunities and optimize their businesses through a combination of peer-advisory boards and business coaching.

TAB Members meet monthly - led by a highly trained facilitator/coach - to share their business expertise and address each other’s challenges confidentially. Members learn from one another's successes and mistakes, empowering them to overcome challenges and grow their businesses.

Have you ever dreamed of operating a professional service, or consulting practice with no overnight travel and consistent predictable monthly income? I can help you explore becoming part of the international TAB community of facilitators/coaches and make a real difference to the businesses in your community.

Franchise Friday, where you can watch or listen as we explore franchising, entrepreneurship, and small business ownership, speaking with the franchise industry thought leaders and subject matter experts that shape the Future Of Franchising. #FranchiseFriday – For more about our podcast, visit our website: https://futureoffranchising.com/ Produced by Franchise Source Brands International and The Entrepreneur’s Source.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:13

Hey there I am here, Melissa Pang with the entrepreneur source and I am here with Jeffrey Pollino of the alternative board. Hi, Jeffrey, welcome. Thanks for joining. I really appreciate the opportunity. Absolutely. I have to say I'm excited to have this conversation. So before we jump in, start talking about all things franchising, and the alternative board and entrepreneur source. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, how you got into franchising, and how you came to be at the alternative form. Okay, well, starting from the very beginning, I'm a former business owner, I own a franchise that was not in tap space, but certainly in the franchising industry. Had some had some challenges, you know about the business, things were going great. And then all of a sudden, the the economy turned, and I had bought a brokerage business, extremely challenging, to say the least, however, I had the support of my partner and spouse. And what I can say is anyone who's interested in investing in a business, if you happen to be in a relationship, very, very important to make sure that you have those very candid and frank discussions about investing in a business, what its gonna be like to be a business owner, talk a little bit about the highs and lows. And fortunately for me, I married up, she's much smarter than me. So when I told her what I was looking to do, we dotted all the i's and cross all the t's. However, even with that, when the challenges happen, because of my education, and university, my experience in working in corporate America, all the training that I received, and the support from my family, we were able to turn it around. So it doesn't have a happy ending, we turned it around after several years of really having a hard time, you know, a lot of sleepless nights staring at the ceiling at three o'clock in the morning, working 1214 hour days, but when we turned around, we were then eventually able to sell the business. And I did very well, thanks to my lovely brides help. So once that happened, I have to say that I was kind of ruined. I couldn't go back into corporate America again, Melissa, because I had a taste of freedom. And even though it was challenging, and there were moments of tease, should I have stayed with the job. All that came to an end, and I realize I'm just not cut out for a corporate job anymore. Now that was me. So then in 2005, I got a phone call from a recruiter. And this recruiter was telling me about a company that was looking for a global business developer. And I'm like, well, who's the company? And they said, the alternative board and like the alternative? What what are these people do? Well, when the recruiter was explaining it to me, Melissa, being a former business owner, and making the transition, I quickly got it. So I'm very grateful that I was able to take the opportunity for the interview. So in 2005, I met with the founder and chairman and the president CEO. And for me, one of the most important things about investing in a business is what's the vision of the of the company? What's the vision of management? Where do you see this business going, challenges us opportunities, etc. Well, interviewing with the founder and chairman got it straight from, you know, the creator, if you will, and the President CEO was adding to it as to their vision for global expansion. So I'm happy to report that 17 years later, when I started in 2005, we were in the US and Canada and then rapidly expanded to 24 other countries. So I'd like to think of like small role and developing tap into the international brand that it is working with very, very talented people. And to yes has been instrumental and sending us talented candidates who became talented franchisees. So we've built upon those years and years of experience that each franchisee brings to the community. And here we are today in 24 countries and just ready to make it 25 Pretty soon and continues to have an awesome relationship with what Te es because of the quality of the candidates that te es sends our way. Love that I have I've many questions. There's a lot of different directions we can go in. I do want to just touch on the point that I find interesting where you came from corporate America. You were a business owner. Uh, and then you joined tab as a business developer, but I'm, you know, as a job and kind of looking at your own mindset around, okay, I didn't even know what the alternative board was, I didn't want to go back to corporate America, I wasn't planning on going back to a job unnecessarily. But after you, and I'm just drawing a parallel between kind of your journey and the journey of our clients a lot of times is, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And so you were able to learn more about the alternative board, what even is it, and then it checked off a lot of boxes for you in terms of mission values, and their, you know, what the company was doing it lined with you, and you made a very educated choice. And I think that's kind of the journey that our clients take as well. So just interesting to hear you say that, um, and and I'm, you know, are you able to, then do you think that that helps you, in your conversations with, with, you know, TDS clients or candidates in general who are looking at becoming a tad franchisee I really do, Melissa, and here are the reasons for it. Being from corporate America, even with the support of my bride, it's scary to make that switch. But I understood that and I was not forced into it, things were going very well. For me, I just knew that repetition, same old, same old, I'd rather have a sharp stick in the eye. So when I got to that point where I was making good money, I had benefits, etc. It was just really a process of do I want to continue to do this, or do I need to make that very scary, and difficult decision. But then I realized I'm not starting from scratch, I'm starting from experience, I had decades of training from corporate America, business development experience with them global business development experience, and they weren't paying me a lot of money, because they liked me. And were paying me a lot of money because I performed a very valuable service to the corporation. And quite candidly, I'm saying myself, and I think I'm making them a heck of a lot more money than I'm making. And for me, if I'm going to be separated from my family, I bet earn a lot of money, because that's the most precious thing to me. So I made the switch. And when I made the switch, how I knew it was right, was the, the fit, if you will, as to what tab does, what I enjoyed doing, and kind of like doing what I am. So they first asked me to be a mentor. So I was actually in the field, helping our franchisees acquire clients. One of my talents, I enjoyed it. And then what I experienced is that most cases, when we're working with candidates, some of the candidates that you know, T S will send us the biggest concern, Melissa is how do I get these clients I've not really experienced in business development and more operations and more finance. And going into business is scary enough as it is. But then all of a sudden, you say, Well, wait a minute, how do you get this thing started? How do you get these clients, and quite candidly, it's a process of coaching, which two Es does very well with their candidates, of talking them through the process. And what these candidates end up realizing is, I guess I have been doing that in my job, I just never really put that definition to it. So going up rising up through the ranks, you got to be pretty good at developing business, you've got to be pretty good at networking and having conversations with people. So when you can show them the similarities between what made them successful in let's say, corporate America, and help them understand that they're not starting from scratch, but you're going to take all of that experience, knowledge and wisdom they have and transfer into tab. When you're working with these privately held business owners, which are just tremendous people, Melissa, they first off, they may not have that type of education, they certainly don't have that type of training that corporate America paid for. And they may not have that experience that you do. So they're like sponges, if you will, when you talk to these business owners, but here's the key. The key is you really have to be a good listener. No one likes someone that comes in and just talks all the time. No one likes anyone to come in and say how smart they are. They want to know and this is why I think the transition for me was so successful, that you've experienced failure that you've variants struggle, and how you manage that whether you're successful or not. But it's sort of like they want to know that you've kind of experienced or walked in their shoes a little bit, rather than reading in a book somewhere. So those are the types of candidates that we really value from to ESS to those men and women that are extraordinary listeners, that can empathize with someone in a tough situation and then respond and kind as to you know, I, that happened to me or something similar happened to me, and here's how I resolved it. Because that's the only way I think you're gonna get these member clients to trust you, Melissa 100%, and again, so much good information there. And I'll I do want to talk about your experience with TDs and working with the clients and the coaches. But one thing I also do want to kind of underline what you said was, these these individuals who are looking at business ownership, maybe for the first time, a lot of t e s clients are looking at business ownership. For the first time, you know, they're coming from that corporate America job. And I think a lot of times, people in general think, okay, I don't have experience in this specific industry, I don't have experience doing exactly this, whether it is tab, or whether it's owning a restaurant, or running a handyman, painting cars and feel like they're like, I don't know this, or I don't necessarily want to be doing that. But to your point, it's like no, it's the those skills, the transferable skills that you've learned and have so much experience in you know, a lot of these people are 1520 30 years in a corporate job, they've picked up a great deal of skills and abilities that then actually transfer beautifully over to let's say, tab or something else, even though they never would have thought, wow, I could apply this to a b2b coaching and consulting company. I didn't know I could do that. And so that's what I think that's why I love franchising. And that's also why I love you know, kind of what we get to do. And what our coaches do is actually introduce people to the idea that they can use all the skills that they've spent years honing, and you know, building on, they can take those and use them in their next kind of, you can call it a career, their next kind of take on life, we call like going from the 1.0 to the 2.0. And so that's exactly what you just described. So, you know, again, could talk about that for for hours, but I want to just kind of jump over now to your experience with the entrepreneur sores, and working with the coaches working with clients. What, um, what are just maybe some main kind of highlights for you, or things that you have maybe picked up over the years that you enjoy working with, let's start with the coaches. And on that side, on how to say that. When you're, when you're speaking with a coach, you have to help them understand the model, before they can help you identify a candidate. So that type of conversation is once again, a lots of questions to the coach as to what what's the coach's background, that they come from corporate America? How did they find the transition? Have a build that relationship with a Melissa as to saying, Look, both of us came from, let's say corporate America, both of us business owners. Tell me a little bit about the challenges that you've experienced in making that decision? How did you make that experience? What were the process steps in your process. And when you find out from them, especially the newer coaches, as to their process, you'll find out sometimes I gotta say it, that sometimes people are running to something, or people are running from something. Now it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you get there. But you've got to find out, help the coach and then the coach can help the candidate. Understand that you're running to are running from process may be similar, but the conversations and the questions will be different. Because there'll be that that kind of concern. So working with coaches, especially the the experienced coaches with what to Yes, I mean, there's there's that click going on. So you do the Vulcan mind melt with the experience ones and you spend time with the newer coaches because they will be the new sheriffs in town. Just give them a little time. Give them a little coaching. Give them a little understanding that Yeah, I know what it's like to be in privately held business. I was once franchisee challenges and issues because again, Melissa, if we're going to be candid and have a conversation and conversation, it's not easy, what your consultants do. There's a lot of rejection. There's a lot of denial, there's a lot of ghosting and that goes along with what we do. know what the reward is when you find those candidates that really, really want to help. I see your coaches light up. I mean, they are just beaming, that they were able to help someone make that transition. So from my experience with Te s, it's your experience coaches, read what they send you. Here's, here's an idea of people, the RFP that they spent time on, it's like an open book test. It's just read it. And all of a sudden, you know, when you talk to the candidates, it's like, Man, this conversation is going really well. Or don't read it, and waste all of that valuable information and blow the shot. You know, with the the newer consultants, help them understand what you look for, in the RFP, what's helpful to you, in conversations with their candidates to help them be more successful. So to me, it's not very challenging. When you build the relationship with the T S coach, the experience ones, you better read their information, because they take no prisoners, and the ones that are just learning, help them understand the information that's helpful in these RFPs. Follow up with both of them experienced new, follow up quickly with them, give them the feedback as to exactly what happened in the conversation where you have may have concerns. Because if you don't have that type of relationship, it's really going to be a struggle. Now one other thing, I know that their mission is basically to present other brands. Sometimes franchisors have a hard time with this, I look at it as there's only two ways to have the tallest building in town, build your own, or tear somebody else's down. I would never receive another referral from Te s if I tore somebody else's down. Use what you got, present what you got, if you've done a good job, and there's a fit, sweet spot for both you and the candidate, most likely, you'll have a new franchisees, if not make sure that if they get back to the T S coach that they say to them, you know, tat really wasn't for me, but I'm so grateful that you introduced that brand to me, rather than do falling into your head, why did you send me to that guy? So those are a couple of things, Melissa, that really top of mind for me, thank you, thank you for sharing those things. And, again, I go back to and I talk about all the time, you're probably tired of hearing me say it, but it's it's collaboration, but I love that you put kind of painted a picture of what collaboration can look like and should look like, on a very simple level. But really, it's that back and forth. And again, not just you as the franchisor. You know, doing all the follow up and getting back to them and all this stuff. It's also on the other side, you know, where the coaches also have this great rapport, they've gathered a lot of great information that also as a franchisor, you can leverage and should leverage, you know, so again, to your point, taking time to read the information and and understand the the details that maybe some of the more tenured coaches are going to send and with the newer coaches, yes, getting in with them and talking about, you know, these are the people that do well, these are our franchisees and starting to build the relationship, because I think sometimes people will say, on both sides, Coach franchisor, they'll say, Listen, I don't have time, I'm too busy working with too many candidates or I'm, I'm working with so many clients, I just don't have time for the relationship between franchisor and coach. And it's like, that's actually overlooking a big piece of it. Because without that collaboration, it doesn't matter how many clients you're working with, it doesn't matter how many candidates you're working with, it's going to be really hard to bring everything together without the collaboration. So again, I would agree, and you know, you bring up the topic. It's not how I want to communicate, it's how the consultant or the coach wants to communicate. I have a DISC profile and I'm what is known as a very high D. So I sometimes can communicate rapidfire short sentences so when I'm talking to a coach or consultant was a fellow ID we do the Vulcan mind meld when someone happens to be more of the SRC more compliant, more steady, calmer. The conversation has to be you have to communicate in their language, not your preferred language. So depending on the coach will also determine the length of conversation, the amount of information, the conversation because some of your coaches consultants are probably going to be like me, you don't have to say a lot like What's the highlight what's what's the bullet point leave with the headline. And then we don't have to talk about the rest. But some coaches are a little bit more detailed, just like our franchisees, and they're probably going to attract those types of franchisees or those types of candidates. So when someone, one of one of your coaches sends us a candidate, and I understand that coach is more steady, consistent, you know, less talkative, pretty sure that's going to be a candidate, that's probably they're going to refer. So if I don't understand how to speak their language, I'm not going to have success with them. And there is no correlation with regard to desk, who is successful and who's not. So alioli, I only use that in order to be able to effectively communicate with them. So I think you brought up a great point, because it's not how I want to communicate, it's how the, the consultant or coach wants to communicate, it's my job to make them comfortable in presenting candidates to us, it's my job to communicate with them. And if by chance, again, this is a very real and genuine conversation, if the consultant is busy, so busy, they got a lot of candidates in the pipeline, and they're not sending you feedback. Please understand, when I say this, too bad, continue to send them the feedback, continue to keep them in the loop, and understand that they may have a lot of candidates right now that they're looking to help your job is to provide them with that information, that feedback. So when they do talk to that candidate, you've got them up to speed. I think too many times people are worried about Well, they didn't reply to my email, too bad, you know, continue to send them the information, I tell you that they always read it, they'll always pay attention. But you know, try not to make it all about you trying to make it about the candidate and the coach and the consultant. That's, that's my thinking. I like that. And just in general, too, I feel like that's great advice in terms of whether you're working with a coach or a coach working with a client or a franchisor working with the client or me working with the people that I work with, it's you want to meet people where they're at, and just in general, you know, being able to whether that's meet them where they're at in communication style. So you mentioned desk, you know, that's a communication assessment tool. Or maybe someone's just having a bad day, or there's some kind of stressor happening, I hear lots of stories to where the coach is like, Melissa, you'll never believe it. But I had my client, he was really excited about a certain brand, he was getting ready to go for it. And then and then all of a sudden, his wife served some divorce papers. And now he's just literally just out in, he has no idea what just hit him or that's like a very aggressive example. But that has happened or all of a sudden, there's a family emergency or things come up, like, we're like you're talking with people, you know, you're not just talking with a checklist, or you're not just talking with a person that you can just move x, y, z through the process, linear, nothing's going to change, you treat everyone the same. You know, and it doesn't work like that in life in general, but especially when it comes to, you know, working with coaches or working with clients, that's a big part to understand meet people where they're at in that moment on that day, so I couldn't agree more. So if you got an opportunity, if my camera would do that, I would show you that there's always a mirror, right over my computer. Why old school, but it's like if you're not, if you're not looking good smile and positive. Do not pick up the phone, reschedule the call, do whatever you got to do, but sometimes they have to borrow your passion and your energy. And when you talk about you know, a bad day or you know, folks, you know, not responding the way you want. There again, it gets into the coaching as to you know, it just sounds like or it feels like that today not might not be the best day to have this conversation. Anything I can help with eight times out of 10 Well, here's what happened. My mother just got rushed to the hospital. My son is not feeling whatever it happens to be. So you're right you have to really watch for the indicators and not well the shot not assume he is someone who didn't make the call didn't want to have the call. Life happens a lot of people have a lot of life going on you're so right unless the so then you communicate back to the coach not typing it in as to that didn't show up and they blew me off. I'm concerned. You know, Frederick wasn't on the call. Do you know anything about Frederick? Is he okay? Because usually some Nothing happened. Now if someone is not really ready, and it does happen, work with them as much as you can. And understand that the coach, their mission is to send as many people your way as possible. So if you need to have a conversation with the coach, because they're sending someone over, that's perhaps not quite qualified, don't get upset, don't be disappointed, don't get angry, coach them, help them understand why it might not be a fit. And if you have one of those conversations that are not going well with the candidate, once again, talk to the coach, tell them I spoke to them and quite candidly, their their spouse, their significant others not on board. So bad news doesn't get better with time. So it usually doesn't end up well. When it's like that. However, the coach not might not be aware of it. So surely information, then both of you are talking to the candidate. And that's the case, then the coach may understand. And you may understand that maybe timing is not right, or it's just not going to happen, because they're just digging in. But you didn't ruin the relationship, because you failed to ask the question or you fail to be understanding, you fail to be empathetic as to you've got a lot of life going on. And you will rob yourself a future opportunities. That's, that's what I think, great, great insights on that as well. And again, just great, you know, kind of real life examples as to what it could look like and how to handle certain things. So thank you. And so we have a little bit of time left. So I want to move on, we talked a lot about great discussion around the coach piece of it, what that looks like, I'd like to ask you, if you have any, like specific story of a client that kind of sticks out to you a TTS client and, and kind of talking through what it was like, working with the TTS client? And what drew them to tab, like what was exciting for them about tab? And if you saw any kind of like mindset shift, similar to your own experience of corporate America to business owner, and then looking at tab in the way that you did? Have you seen that with client, a specific client that a story that you'd want to share? The most, the most recent one, Melissa was candidate that sent our way that he you know, when when someone feels as though they're makes you feel as though they're extremely suspicious? By how they ask questions. It's not necessarily the question, but it might be the tone of the question. It might be multiple questions, like, you know, I gotcha. Or there's something behind this, you know, you're something perhaps you're not telling me. So, when we had conversations with this particular candidate at first, and I'm sure that coach probably experienced the same thing. But they were very skeptical, skeptical, and sometimes a little cynical, and downright paranoid, because they really wanted to make the move. But they were, I'll say fearful that they didn't know what they didn't know. And they wanted to come across as you know, I don't know, analytical, whatever it was, but it was just like, firing questions, firing questions, firing questions. And the response, and the least in terms of how we've been trained, and the coaches been trained is, answer those questions the best you can, but try not to answer it in the same tone. Because you don't, it just escalates. And lo and behold, I'm not quite sure what happened. But after a while, and of course, after communicating with the coach as to look, we're not the enemy here. The choice is always going to be the candidates, they can do it or not do it. You know, our job is to provide them information. Your job is also provide them information, help them through the process. We'd welcome them into the community. However, before they come in, they really have to have a mind shift as to imagine them doing that to a potential client, where it was like, you know, it's not a conversation, it was an interrogation. So I don't know if it was the coach and US combination. But then all of a sudden it was like a switch thrown. And then we had a conversation with this candidate, and they were very relaxed. Very are very much contributing to conversation. We weren't getting that, that quick fire question. And I think it may have a lot to do with when we allowed them when they were ready for validation calls that seemed to have like calm the situation down where they were talking to people that they knew their only vested interest, Melissa's, they needed someone else who was just a talented to help us build the brand. That was the only thing that they were interested in. Quite candidly, they weren't looking at Well, geez, I hope I can help Jeffrey sell a franchise was nothing like that they want to know was this person qualified? Would they represent the brand with they continue to add value to the business that they invested in. So in that must also be in the turning point. But that was a perfect example of how we took someone along with the coach from cynical skeptical, maybe even downright paranoid, worked with them through the process didn't get defensive, stuck with him, because we knew there was something there. And then all of a sudden, they had such a paradigm shift in their in their thinking, they're one of our best new franchisees. Go figure, Wow, I love this story. Because it first of all, just kudos to you and your team, kudos to the coach on sticking with it. Because I think a lot of times, you can disqualify someone out early on because of maybe their personality. I know, sometimes it's financials, and it's just different things. Or you're just thinking, you know, why am I wasting my time with this person, they don't even, they're not even showing like the interest. They're not excited about this. They're asking so many questions. But that you guys really, you know, what, we see something here, which, you know, kudos to you guys, again, for looking beyond just the, you know, here. And now that day, that time, how he was how those people were presenting, and going through that, you kind of like wore them down so that they, they really saw the value, and they were like, hang on, and they there was something that they saw about you guys, too, it must have been because I tell you this, that this was one of your experience coaches. So they they knew what they were doing. And their RFP was one of the keys that kept us focused in terms of saying there's something there. And if we can allow this person to be a little bit more open just a little bit more and help them understand that doesn't relinquish control. They're still in control of making the decision, whether it be yes, our favorite answer, or no, our second favorite answer, you know, everything's gonna be okay. But in order for them to be successful here, they, they cannot have that approach. When they're looking for member clients, it just, it just doesn't work. No one, no one wants to be interrogated. So I think the combination of the RFP, the experience of the coach, our ability to have those types of conversations without being defensive, allow them to get into validation, where they knew the franchisees had no hidden agenda. We ended up taking them in and again, for a new franchisee they, they're on an accelerated path of being very well. So it's one of those examples, I guess, of just have a little patience sometimes with people. Absolutely, I think that's good again, in someone else was in kind of your role, your position of bringing in new franchisees and for coaches who are working with clients, there's so many different personalities, and then just in general, you know, if you are in a role or position where you have to work with other people, just to remember that and give people the benefit of the doubt, we and we say to you know, 95% of our clients who end up going into a business, they end up going into one that they never would have looked at, or they would have prematurely dismissed without the help of a coach. And you can also say without the help of that the franchise brand as well. Because you know, what, you're just you're giving education, you're letting someone make their own informed their informed choice. And we also say you have to be detached from the outcome, which a lot of times, you know, let's say you're attached to, you know, the outcome that I want is for that person to, you know, move forward with the franchise. That's not the outcome. It's, it's really, can we give this person education? Can we let them explore what this opportunity is, and then the outcome is really that they make an informed choice one way or another. That's what we're looking for. And more often than not, it actually does end up that they move forward with a with a franchise and to your point become a like, fabulous. I think I'm gonna make my next candidate call because when you said that from the outcome. I'm like, I should have said that. That was great. because that's the case in terms of, you know, rather than selling, our job is to solve and serve. Rather than closing, our job is to coach. So even though we want, let's say, our favorite answer our second favorite answers, okay, too, because we're detached from the outcome. It's not like we're going to do everything we can to, quote, close this person. You know, like, we've been doing this for several decades, and I think we've been having a relationship with T Yes, for several decades, that relationship would have never flourished. If we were that way. That it just wouldn't, you wouldn't send us candidates. So when they talk with us, I hope that they always feel there's no pressure. But there's information, this collaboration, this cooperation, regardless of whether it's our favorite answer, or second favorite answer, so you're so right, we try to emulate the coach, as to it's the candidates decision. And if the candidate makes the decision, it's got to be the right decision for them. 100%. And I think that's why we have had such a long successful relationship Jeffrey with the TTS and the alternative board, because that that does go a long way. And it's funny, because I think a lot of times people look at certain outcomes and think that's the most important thing. But when you take the approach that you've described during this, these past, you know, our just our past conversation are, that is the most important thing, and the rest will follow in everything kind of falls into place, you know, but it does take, it does take some time and effort and commitment on all party sides. But I think when everyone has, especially the client's best interest at heart, then again, no, it's easy to it's easy to say, so hard to do, when you're in the middle of it, when you're in the thick of it just you've invested hours, yeah calls. So it's, it's difficult for the coaches, it's difficult for us. But you're right, if we always keep in mind that it's for the benefit of the client, the benefit for the candidate. And for us, Melissa, if they choose another system, they may become a member someday, because they're a privately held business owner now. And if I said this at one of the sessions, one of the breakout groups, if by chance, they should decide that te s is the best fit for you stings a little bit, but then this thing is taken out, because now they know all about the alternative board. They really, really liked us, we may have come in second. But we may be first now with the candidates that they have in terms of presenting brands. So we're trying to look at it as from either way, it's a it's a win for us win for the candidate, and hopefully, a win for the coach as well. Absolutely. That's how we like to do things. So thank you so much, Jeffrey, for taking some time with me, I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, as I knew I would. But you brought up a lot of really great, a lot of really great points on a lot of different topics that I think actually can be broadly applied to a lot of different things and just relationships in general relationships with clients, customers, candidates, and co workers, teammates, partners, all the above. So thank you so much for Thank you. Last thing I have to say is, every single time I see what conference and I'm looking forward to seeing you this year and GA, you've always always demonstrated patience. I know that you know the buildings on fire, you get 1000s of things to do. And yet when I come up and ask this kind of silly question, you never make me feel silly. You always stop you always focus and say, well, here's what I would do. Here's the situation. And then as soon as that's done, I see you go right back in action again. So you absolutely practice the culture and the values of T S especially when you're working with with Azores. So I just want to say thank you very much for that because I never felt like I was interrupting or disturbing you. You were always very focused on what I had to say and the challenges that I had at that time. So thank you very much for that. Well, thank you Jeffrey. It's my pleasure. I love working with you guys. I love working with you. So looking forward to absolutely you years. Thank you