My guest this week, Dr. Nancy Bellucci, is the academic program director for the College of Nursing at Columbia Southern University.
[00:10] She holds a PhD in nursing and has many credentials to her name.
[00:14] I always feel a bit nervous interviewing highly accomplished nurses like Nancy, but she assured me that those letters are ladders to more opportunities,
[00:24] which put me completely at ease.
[00:27] Starting her associate program at the age of 38,
[00:30] Nancy brought both maturity and passion to her learning journey,
[00:35] and she has never stopped learning.
[00:38] Her nursing career has taken her from being an operating room nurse to an educator and manager,
[00:44] and ultimately to academia.
[00:47] As the academic program director, Nancy is responsible for developing the nursing curriculum from the baccalaureate to doctoral levels.
[00:56] She is a unique educator who integrates empathetic curriculum design into the classroom.
[01:02] Nurses are inherently empathetic caregivers,
[01:05] and through her compassionate approach,
[01:08] Nancy has created a learning environment that takes into account the time and experiences of her nursing students.
[01:16] I love that she mentioned it's no longer about the sage on stage,
[01:21] but rather about making students the center of attention,
[01:25] just as nurses practice patient centered care.
[01:29] This philosophy has significantly helped bridge the gap between nursing and academia.
[01:36] My initial apprehension about Nancy's numerous credentials was unnecessary.
[01:42] She is one of the most down to earth educators I have encountered.
[01:46] Although we discussed serious topics,
[01:49] our conversation was filled with lighthearted humor and I genuinely believe her students are fortunate to have her. In the five-minute snippet:
[02:01] She's a Cat-5 traveler.
[02:20] Well, good morning Nancy. Welcome to the podcast.
[02:23] Nancy: It's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
[02:26] Michelle: Well, you're welcome. And thank you for coming on. After 137 episodes, I have not spoken to many nurses in academia,
[02:39] but when I have, it's always been a stimulating conversation and I've always learned a ton of and I know today will be no different.
[02:48] So thank you so much for coming on to share what you do.
[02:52] Nancy: My pleasure.
[02:54] Michelle: Well, we're just going to jump into it. Tell us about your journey into nursing first and then the move from your clinical practice into academia.
[03:08] Nancy: Sure. Well, it's kind of an interesting story,
[03:12] one I actually like to tell because I think it inspires those who are looking to go into nursing as a second career.
[03:19] I worked in business most of my life and near the before I came to be a nurse, I was working with my husband. We had a a big boat dealership in New Jersey, and we sold the business.
[03:31] It was right time, right place kind of thing. And I looked at him and I said, okay, what do I do now?
[03:38] Because I ran a business. I was the office person. So it was time to think about what was next.
[03:46] We had one son heading off to college, and we still had two boys at home. So had to do something that I thought was going to be amenable to life, you know, working and balancing everything.
[03:59] But I didn't want to just go back to school without there being a purpose.
[04:04] And we were at a fundraiser for a cancer patient one night, and I had a retired nurse come up to me, and we were talking about what my next steps would be.
[04:13] And she said,
[04:15] why don't you be a nurse?
[04:17] It really just struck me. I don't know whether it was just,
[04:21] she just got me at the right time, but it really just struck me. And I looked at her and I said, hmm, I'm a nurturer by nature,
[04:27] so it's probably not a bad idea.
[04:31] So that night, went home,
[04:32] couldn't sleep. It was back when we had AOL dial up, you know,
[04:37] old school. I remember old school internet, and couldn't sleep. So there I am in the office,
[04:44] trying not to wake anybody, you know, but all the sounds that come along with AOL.
[04:50] And here I was on the local community college website looking at the nursing program,
[04:55] and I thought,
[04:57] hmm,
[04:57] I think I can do this. I always wanted to go to school. I couldn't go to school when I was at 18, although I was accepted by universities, I had siblings to take care of.
[05:08] I was the primary breadwinner, and I had to,
[05:12] Had to be there for them.
[05:14] So this was an opportunity for me to realize a dream,
[05:19] which is to go to school and graduate as a college graduate. So I'm like, huh, okay, let's go. So off I went. I applied, and then I walked on to the campus with my backpack and my sociology book in hand.
[05:34] And you might have thought that it was paved in gold because I was just so grateful for the opportunity to go.
[05:42] And I knew that I was going to have to take away from the family some because it was,
[05:47] It was associate's degree, so you had to go, you had clinicals and things of that nature.
[05:53] And I just kept going. I never stopped going to school.
[05:56] One thing led to another,
[05:58] and it led me to my clinical work. And then from there, it led me to academia.
[06:07] Michelle: Fascinating.
[06:08] I never get tired of hearing the stories of how nurses get into the profession.
[06:15] And it's such a stretch to imagine, like going from business,
[06:21] not having gone to college,
[06:24] meeting a retired nurse who says,
[06:27] why not nursing?
[06:28] And then you're like, why not,
[06:32] let's do this.
[06:33] And you know, Nancy, it's like you didn't just go back to school. Like you went through your associate, your bachelor's, your master's, and now your PhD.
[06:46] And that's admirable and
[06:50] Inspiring to so many people out there that are just thinking about nursing. Why not?
[06:57] I just love hearing the stories and thank you for sharing that.
[07:02] So now you have moved into academia and what was your first kind of foray into academia? What was your position?
[07:17] And were there any unexpected surprises,
[07:22] benefits,
[07:24] downfalls? Talk about that.
[07:27] Nancy: Well, actually to step back just a little bit. If you look at my nursing career in the operating room, I started off in med/surg. I did all the traditional route.
[07:36] I went to school in tandem with what I was doing.
[07:39] But it wasn't until I moved into the operating room and precepted, you know, it's a see one, do one, teach one mentality. And then when they did away with educators in our unit,
[07:52] which I thought was just a tragedy,
[07:55] I stepped in and became the pseudo educator,
[07:58] went home and made manuals on my own time and built a bridge program that could be used to help inners coming from the floor come into the or. Because the OR is a pretty daunting place.
[08:11] So that was kind of like my first taste of creating an educational experience.
[08:18] From there I became a manager of clinical development and oversaw 144 staff members, all from diverse eight different units, service units.
[08:30] And it was really a crash course in educating the masses and having to pivot, having to think about everybody's different needs.
[08:39] But the drive was always for me to be in academia.
[08:42] I think back when I was a kid, I thought about being a teacher.
[08:47] Life had other plans,
[08:49] I had things that came in.
[08:51] So now I saw a really great opportunity to teach.
[08:55] And you needed an advanced degree to do that.
[08:58] So once I got in, I started at your entry level.
[09:02] I did evaluation,
[09:04] I did some course monitoring,
[09:07] anything I could do to kind of get my foot into the door in academics.
[09:12] And from there I just,
[09:15] The growth happened.
[09:16] I took on a lot of jobs,
[09:19] I worked a lot of different part time jobs because getting a full time job was challenging. It's very competitive.
[09:25] But I said, that's not going to stop me.
[09:27] I'll just keep becoming educated, keep getting out there and getting the experience that I need.
[09:33] So that I become a well-versed academic, that I can really speak to the nurse. I am a nurse. I know what nurses are going through.
[09:41] I know what nursing students are balancing.
[09:44] It's Herculean in a lot of ways. I mean, the effort that it takes to do it.
[09:49] I just kind of kept moving and kept getting educated and found myself in all different roles.
[09:56] I have served as a faculty member,
[09:59] I have served as an academic program director,
[10:02] I served as a curriculum specialist.
[10:05] I never let anything limit me because that's the unique thing about nursing is that you can be anything you want to be should you have the desire to do it.
[10:14] So I think by and large it's find what you're passionate about and just take the journey. It's not good to be easy. It's going to have its fair share of challenges, but it's definitely worth the ride.
[10:29] Michelle: Well, I love that you just saw a need and you stepped in and said, look,
[10:36] we need to be educated. And I'm going to take this on.
[10:41] And you know, I always wonder like, where does that come from? Because you certainly didn't have to do that. You could have been somebody that stepped back into the background and said, oh, we have no educator, we're screwed, you know, whatever.
[10:55] But you didn't, you stepped forward and said, I'm going to take this on. And that's amazing to me.
[11:05] Nancy: Thank you.
[11:06] Michelle: And I also really like that you mentioned your role in kind of you, you know, what it's like to be a nurse. You are a nurse, but you know,
[11:20] practicing in the operating room and then really knowing what nurses need to know.
[11:26] Because I think sometimes nurses have this disconnect with educators in academia that they don't really know how it is. Like these courses or this instruction,
[11:42] this didactic, is just so far removed from what we really do.
[11:47] And sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
[11:51] And so how do you,
[11:54] what strategies do you use to make sure your courses first of all challenge students academically and then also prepare them for the real world of nursing?
[12:09] Nancy: You raise a really great question.
[12:11] And one of the things, one of the challenges I had when I went through my degree programs is that you're being taught the ideal,
[12:19] and then when you come out,
[12:21] you're faced with the real.
[12:23] So it's how to make that, how to operationalize that and make it so the curriculum speaks to the nurse, makes them feel like it's relevant so that they want to go and read more,
[12:34] not just assign just to check the boxes, but help them feel like they are part of the curriculum.
[12:43] Having written all 31 courses that are in CSU's nursing programs,
[12:50] I have threaded through what real life is.
[12:55] We ask students to personify their experience.
[12:58] We ask them to not only write about a given topic or something like that,
[13:04] but to tell us what it means to them. How will they apply it to practice?
[13:10] Is this concept new to you? If it is,
[13:13] what can you glean from it that's going to make your practice better?
[13:16] I think that making it relevant and timely,
[13:20] ensuring that you're putting the most up to date articles and content out there.
[13:26] I've done all the searching for them and put it under one hood,
[13:30] so to speak.
[13:32] They don't have to go and look for it. It's all right there for them. Because another thing that I noticed as a student and what I see in my own students is time is precious.
[13:43] So if you have them doing a seek and find mission for them to get their work done in class, you've lost them. The moment that you've taken them away from what they're focused on,
[13:54] they are off on something else. Something else has happened, either something in their family or work or something like that.
[14:01] So I always say that nursing students in particular work in their classroom with one eye on the prize. The other eye is off doing 900,000 other things because that's what nurses do.
[14:11] We're multitaskers by nature.
[14:13] We're always have our ear and the other part of our vision out there assessing whatever else we need to do.
[14:21] While one one part of us is focused, it's the unique part of the nursing brain.
[14:27] So cultivating that.
[14:28] And as I wrote each course and all the content in the course,
[14:33] I kind of thought about that as if I was taking the course.
[14:39] Is this relevant?
[14:40] Am I having them spending too much time on one task?
[14:45] And then we had another layer in it in instructional design, they go through it and actually time everything to make sure that students aren't being overburdened or loaded and they can feel enriched by the experience.
[14:58] And then there's a lot of interactive.
[15:01] Michelle: So it sounds like you get a lot of feedback from your students.
[15:06] And do you tailor?
[15:10] Have you changed,
[15:12] I guess,
[15:13] your course content based on some of the feedback from your students Nancy?
[15:19] Nancy: Yes, student feedback, faculty feedback is vital, essential.
[15:25] We do end of course surveys where students get to tell us how they interfaced with the content,
[15:31] whether or not it was meaningful,
[15:34] if there are things we need to improve on, if the technology was effective. You know, drilling down to if a part of the technology or something in our technology is not working for them, then that inhibits their learning.
[15:48] And right away, you've just created another segue for them to just get up and walk away from the computer and not get the work done. Time on task is important.
[15:57] So we take the feedback of students and faculty and analyze not only the qualitative,
[16:04] but the quantitative. We think about. What are their comments? To me,
[16:08] I look at both things. The data tells us one thing, but their comments tell me.
[16:12] Fill in the blanks to tell me the rest of the story.
[16:15] And sometimes you can glean some really important nuggets out of there. Something so much as do I. A student once mentioned that they didn't feel represented in the images that we selected.
[16:27] So we went back and we edited,
[16:30] and it was really, it made me even more conscious as a curriculum designer to make sure that I'm selecting images that make everyone feel like they're a part of the course, something as simple as that.
[16:42] And then we operationalize it. If it's something that we can fix right away,
[16:47] then we get our instructional design team and our information technology team on it, and we get it fixed right away in the moment so that students aren't inhibited any further.
[16:57] If it's something that's more grander scale, like maybe we have to revise the assignment, maybe it just wasn't clear to enough of a percentage that we have to revise it, then that goes on a curriculum review cycle, and then we do a major change.
[17:11] Michelle: Wow. Okay. Sounds very comprehensive. How many students are in each cohort, approximately?
[17:19] Nancy: Well, we just launched in January,
[17:22] so we're brand new. All seven programs launched at the same time.
[17:26] And right now our cohort is small, but we're edging up to almost 50 students across all seven programs. So they range anywhere from 10 students to one, you know, and that one student gets truly personalized service from their faculty member.
[17:46] So with probably another 150 in the queue being evaluated right now. So we're. We're growing steadily.
[17:54] Michelle: Yeah.
[17:55] Nancy: Slow and steady.
[17:56] Michelle: Yeah, it sounds like there's a real need for that.
[17:59] And in my bachelor program, I took sort of a hybrid program.
[18:04] And so we met as a cohort one night a week for four hours,
[18:10] and then the rest of our work was online.
[18:13] And as somebody that went back to school after 25 years of getting my associate.
[18:20] So I'm an adult learner at this point. Right.
[18:23] It was, I liked it. I liked that format. I liked meeting once a week because we could all talk about,
[18:30] you know, what went on, what challenges we're having.
[18:34] And that's when we would have like our didactic instruction and then we would go off with our projects for the week and do those online.
[18:43] So I really liked that. Do your cohorts have an opportunity to meet in person?
[18:49] Nancy: They don't meet in person. We are a fully distance program, fully distanced university.
[18:56] The nuance is that we offer two live lectures and they're a synchronous meeting where you,
[19:05] the students get to log on with their instructor in a web based platform similar to, you know, how we're interacting right now.
[19:13] And they get to talk about the content matter,
[19:19] questions that they might have on their assignments,
[19:22] discussions on topics of interest.
[19:26] But we also employ what's called the flipped classroom technique in that we have students, we give the students the PowerPoint and their questions ahead of time and they're meant to review what content is going to be reviewed with them and the questions and come prepared to debrief and talk about.
[19:43] Because nursing is, you know, we learn a lot from debriefing from one another.
[19:47] It gives the faculty an edge because they have some content prepared for them that's aligned in the curriculum. But it also gives the students something, some meat. You know, they can come in and they can really talk about their assignment, their project,
[20:04] what's going on in nursing.
[20:06] And then each of the faculty that is hand selected for each course,
[20:12] they're a content matter expert. We bring them in and we, you know, they not only get to know the content,
[20:19] but they bring their worldview in and they host these.
[20:23] They're usually 30, 45 minutes long.
[20:26] They're recorded so that no one feels left out because we know nurses are busy.
[20:31] And then the recording is posted for students so that they can record, review the content and then they can answer their questions in a text box.
[20:41] So there's a lot of ways we're trying to foster connectivity. We also just in one of our courses, it ran for the very first time,
[20:50] we have what's called an interprofessional education experience.
[20:54] And we have linked our health sciences course with, and their master's level courses with, with our RN to BSN students in their community health course to talk about human trafficking.
[21:09] So they have a discussion board where they interact and then the week afterwards they have a debriefing and everybody comes and they talk about what they learned. They have a pre and post survey that has them discuss how they felt about how they feel about interprofessional collaboration,
[21:28] what they knew before it and what they feel in terms of confidence level after the activity. And it was a really very successful first time out, so we'll be offering that every term.
[21:38] Michelle: That's very cool. And I think those interactive experiences just enrich the whole experience.
[21:46] Right?
[21:48] Yeah. That's great.
[21:50] So one of the things that I saw in your bio that I,
[21:54] I kind of had to look up because I didn't know what this was,
[21:59] and it's empathetic instructional design.
[22:03] So you have actually attained a degree in online learning design and technology to highlight the need for empathetic instructional design.
[22:13] What is that? Can you speak to that and how you,
[22:17] I guess, implement that in your courses?
[22:21] Nancy: That's a great question and thank you for noticing that. Something I personally am very proud of.
[22:26] If you look up empathetic instructional design,
[22:29] if you Google it, you won't necessarily find it, you'll find a lot of information about it.
[22:35] But it's something that I've spoke on at conferences and things like that. And really it's, you know, as a nurse, you become empathetic and caring to your patients.
[22:46] It's part of the beauty, the art that is a nurse.
[22:50] But I thought, why can't we bring that into the classroom?
[22:53] And you know, empathy starts with caring about those you're preparing the table for, so to speak.
[23:01] So I'm preparing the table by way of this curriculum and I'm being mindful of time on task. I'm being mindful of what the nurse is going through.
[23:11] When you're creating an assignment,
[23:13] does it really need to be this laborious 15 page paper or can you get what you need in terms of competency in a few pages?
[23:22] Providing templates, APA is one of the most challenging things for nursing students returning who have been out of school for a while.
[23:32] And you're throwing APA at them and they're like, what am I learning,
[23:37] learning like a whole new language on top of this stuff. What are you doing?
[23:41] Michelle: 100%.
[23:44] Nancy: So providing them APA templates.
[23:47] So it's really taking empathy into the classroom and caring about the students and putting as much right in the assignment or in the classroom,
[23:59] the digital classroom,
[24:01] so that they can move through things methodically and not have to go and have nine browsers open and things of that nature.
[24:13] I love it so much. I love talking about it so much that in our nursing education,
[24:18] our master's in nursing education, and our RN to master's in nursing education programs.
[24:24] There is a course that teaches the educator how to build an empathetic classroom, whether it's in the clinical setting or the academic setting,
[24:34] live or online or hybrid.
[24:37] So teaches them how to be an empathetic educator.
[24:41] You know, it's not,
[24:42] it's no longer the sage on stage kind of thing. It's not, you're not the center of the attention.
[24:47] The student is the center of attention, just like our patient is the center of our focus.
[24:54] So ultimately that's,
[24:56] the foundation of it.
[24:58] Michelle: I think it's brilliant, Nancy. I love the patient-centered and student-centered analogies. Those are just something that everyone can understand.
[25:13] And it seems like you are designing your courses based on remembering how things were for you, maybe as a student,
[25:24] the challenges that you came in contact with and up against in,
[25:29] you know, when you went through school in what, 2006?
[25:34] And you know, we didn't have the technology that's available today and we didn't have the instruction and honestly, we didn't have the instructors with the,
[25:45] philosophy that you hold today about how students learn and how can we make their learning experience maybe not easier, but with less challenges, because nursing isn't easy,
[26:02] but we can remove some of those barriers so that they can have a better time to learn or a better time of learning. So I just think that's brilliant.
[26:15] Nancy: Thank you.
[26:16] Yeah, we're real proud to showcase it too. And I'm really excited to see our first students go through that course and see what they get, they gain from it.
[26:25] Michelle: Yeah, that's going to be a really special day that, that graduation day, right?
[26:31] Nancy: Yes, yes. Looking forward to that.
[26:33] Michelle: Yeah. Well, you have designed and authored more than 60 online courses now, which is just blowing my mind.
[26:41] But what's your approach to creating engaging content for students? Because,
[26:47] you know, we've all consumed content that is going to put us asleep or cause us to pull our hair out.
[26:57] But what are you doing to create engaging content, Nancy?
[27:01] Nancy: That's another great question.
[27:03] And I think meeting the learner where they are, knowing that we have an audience of learners who are,
[27:10] they like to see it and read it,
[27:14] you know, so offering things in multiple ways.
[27:17] We have lectures, and they're not meant to be long, laborious lectures,
[27:21] and they're not meant to be flat files either,
[27:24] you know, where a student's just reading on and on forever.
[27:27] So what we've done is we have lectures, video recorded lectures, so they can watch it, they can just listen to it kind of like a podcast or they can download it and read it.
[27:40] So it's one way to engage because I know for me I'm visual, I'm a visual learner. So to watch a video and to listen reinforces what I've read.
[27:51] So all of the lectures are recorded and they are closed captioned and they've gone through extensive editing for students to be able to enjoy in multiple ways. We also have interactive discussions,
[28:06] but different than other programs, we don't have a laborious discussion every week.
[28:15] We have a few content threaded discussions and we have others that are set up like a discussion. But they're meant to be reflective, they're meant to be debriefing where the faculty member goes in and shares their own story and lets the student realize that, hey, I'm a nurse too,
[28:33] you know, all of our part time faculty and some of our full time instructors are still working in the field and they're doing this in tandem with what they're doing in the field.
[28:43] So they're bringing that world view and that life experience back into the classroom.
[28:49] So we try to engage students through interactives,
[28:55] interactive discussions, interactive activities.
[28:59] But one of the really great ways we're engaging students is through digital clinical simulation.
[29:06] We take them through digital clinical experiences and that would occur in our undergrad health assessment and our graduate health assessment,
[29:15] pathophysiology and pharmacology.
[29:18] And we use an external tool that allows students to work with an avatar.
[29:24] It's a patient, so they work with an avatar. They go through and they perform a systems.
[29:30] Each week they're doing a systems review and then they're going back in the environment and they are discussing and that's with, with the infusion of AI that's even improving exponentially because now you can have like a real time conversation with this,
[29:49] this avatar and it would feel like you're actually in the room with them.
[29:54] So they're really, they're escaping the doldrums of just reading through text.
[30:01] And if I had had this kind of interactivity when I was going through all the degree programs, it would have been a lot more fun and engaging.
[30:10] And if I had had my lectures recorded so that I could listen to them while making dinner,
[30:15] it would have been great.
[30:16] Michelle: Yeah, man, that's fantastic.
[30:19] I mean, the technology that we have to work with today, it's changing everything.
[30:24] And I had this conversation actually a couple days ago with my brother Chris.
[30:29] He's a DNP-prepared nurse and he has also, he's taught at the undergraduate level and the graduate level as well for about 10 years. And now he heads up the research department at our local institution.
[30:45] But he is a huge fan of AI and what he said just kind of blew me away. He said, AI is making me a better nurse and talked about all the different ways in which you can use it.
[31:01] And I have had the pleasure of talking to several innovators, nursing innovators, that have used AI to kind of level up some of their programs. And it's just so exciting.
[31:13] I love that they're able to work with an avatar.
[31:17] And I think back to our nursing days when we had to, you know,
[31:23] put NG tubes in each other and give each other injections and,
[31:29] you know, all this stuff that we had to do because we didn't have any of that. And man, it's fascinating and so exciting. It must be so exciting to be a student today, but to also be a creator, because that's kind of what you're doing.
[31:45] You're creating content,
[31:47] right?
[31:48] Nancy: Yeah, it is exciting. And Columbia Southern University and in all their programs and their leadership are really fully embracing AI and technology and how we can leverage that to improve the student experience.
[32:04] You know, if there's a way to refine processes and make it better and smoother for students,
[32:10] then, you know, we're all about infusing that technology, embracing it. It's not going away. And this is what I used to tell the nurses that I taught in the clinical setting.
[32:23] When we moved to a brand new surgical pavilion,
[32:26] 144 people were going from an old 1960s,
[32:31] you know, units and 1960s ORs that hadn't been updated in quite some time. And I'm taking a 25, 30 year nurse and I'm going to move her into a fully a full SMART suite that's all computerized.
[32:45] They were running around like their hair was on fire.
[32:48] And I'm like,
[32:49] hold the phone, Joan.
[32:52] Put your fire out and,
[32:54] and listen to me. I'm going to show you how technology can be your friend.
[32:58] And then I had that 25, 30 year old nurse, the one that was really perilous. She came up to me at the end, she goes, you know, I got this, I got this.
[33:06] And I said, just, it's your friend.
[33:08] It can make your life easier. Just roll with it. So that's what we do.
[33:12] Michelle: Embrace it. Yeah, I love it.
[33:14] You know, one of the things Chris uses in his instruction is humor, Nancy,
[33:20] and I see that from you.
[33:23] Do you infuse humor into your instruction at all?
[33:32] Nancy: you know, I just.
[33:34] I let them realize that we're just. We're just all nurses.
[33:39] Let's just talk. Let's,
[33:41] What's troubling you today?
[33:44] What's the issue?
[33:46] What can we get over and what can we laugh about? You know,
[33:50] as long as no one is dying,
[33:53] it's all gonna be okay. It's all gonna be fine.
[33:57] This is not a code situation.
[33:59] Michelle: It's. It's like that meme. Right? But did you die?
[34:03] Nancy: But did you die? We're not dying here, so let's just breathe, you know?
[34:09] Michelle: Yeah.
[34:10] Nancy: And I think
[34:11] Just letting them know that they can laugh.
[34:15] I also think helping students realize that they need to be mindful of themselves.
[34:20] Nurses are terrible at being mindful. We're great at taking care of everyone else in the world,
[34:25] but terrible at taking care of ourselves. So I think,
[34:29] And I remind them each when I am teaching, I remind them I put a midweek motivation,
[34:36] and it just kind of gets them over the hump. And you never think that it really means anything.
[34:41] But then I've had students at those end, of course, surveys say your midweek motivations kept me going.
[34:47] You know, some of them were hubris, some of them were insightful,
[34:51] but I just think you have to kind of keep things light because they're stressed out enough as it is.
[34:58] Michelle: Yes. Yes, they are. And that was one of my questions. You know, Nancy, what are nurses today, what are you hearing from nurses that they are struggling with?
[35:11] Nancy: I think most often what I've heard now, I've taught at all levels,
[35:17] and what I've heard most is there's a huge mental strain on nurses,
[35:25] not only because of the workload,
[35:27] but also because of the patient presentation.
[35:30] You know, patients are coming in angrier and more challenging,
[35:35] particularly in the emergency department. Obviously, there's a lot of workplace violence when we have students look or submit.
[35:43] In other work that I've done,
[35:45] when we had students submit their capstone ideas, a lot of them were workplace violence. We went from patient falls and patient safety and all that to now I have to protect myself.
[35:56] So I've seen a really unique change in the trajectory of their focus, student focus,
[36:05] you know, staffing, staffing ratios. That seems to be.
[36:09] I mean, for the last 20 years or more, it's just. It's never. It's never gone away.
[36:14] Michelle: Exactly.
[36:16] Nancy: You think there would be a resolution for that, but there is not.
[36:20] I know,
[36:21] but I am inspired by those who are still at it, who are still working as nurses, who are still getting educated,
[36:29] I'm inspired by them because it means that the profession still lives.
[36:34] It still has a heartbeat.
[36:36] It hasn't coded on the table.
[36:39] And there's people that are still inspired by it, despite how challenging it is.
[36:47] And I think that's where the mindfulness comes in. That's where the laughter comes in.
[36:53] Now, I am a severe introvert.
[36:56] May not seem like that right now, but I'm a severe introvert.
[37:00] When working in the operating room, when I sensed that, it was tension.
[37:03] And there was always tension in the operating room, right?
[37:07] Michelle: Like, when is there not?
[37:09] Nancy: I would just blurt out something funny, and it would all just turn their heads because it was like, squirrel, you know, like I just did,
[37:16] and it just. It, like, stopped. It, like, took the momentum of that negativity out of the room.
[37:22] Michelle: That's crazy.
[37:23] Nancy: I would know that the person that was in the core who was getting the case carts ready and all that, I knew she was stressed, especially on certain days. So I would jump out of my room,
[37:32] you know, my break, I jump out of the room, and I'd do something crazy in the core, and then I'd go off to my break. You know, you get 10 minutes.
[37:39] I spent three minutes cheering up the person in the core by doing something wacky.
[37:44] But I just think that's.
[37:46] That's what you need to make life positive and happy and be able to move on.
[37:51] Michelle: I can relate to so much that you're saying right now, because I come from, first of all, I come from a family of nurses, and most of them are operating room nurses, and they married operating room nurses Nancy.
[38:05] Nancy: Yeah, I love it.
[38:08] Michelle: Right? And I see that humor they have.
[38:12] They have this humor that they know how to diffuse or de-escalate,
[38:19] and they're just so brilliant at it. And,
[38:22] man, so much respect,
[38:24] but just laughing at everything that you're saying right now because it's just so relatable. And I just talked to an operating room nurse. Her episode's gonna come out tomorrow.
[38:35] And I'm just so excited for people to hear that because she has the same attitude as you. Like, come on,
[38:42] stop taking yourself so seriously. You know, let's have a little bit of levity here. I love it.
[38:48] Nancy: It's all going to be okay. You know, when you have bone tendon, bone graft flying past your head,
[38:53] you have to, like, somehow compartmentalize that anxiety and move on with.
[38:59] Michelle: I love it. I love it.
[39:01] Well, you have contributed to the profession in so many ways. Writing,
[39:07] peer reviewing and serving as an accreditation site reviewer and a team leader for the cnea, which is Certified Nurse Educators Association.
[39:19] So why is service so important to you Nancy?
[39:23] Nancy: I was really a very proficient,
[39:26] non formal accountant.
[39:28] I was great at doing bookwork.
[39:31] I could have easily gone and been an accountant,
[39:34] but I wanted to do something that was going to give back to society.
[39:37] I always believed the ripple in the pond theory, where you throw a rock and it's, it's a small token, but you can create a ripple and that ripple can turn into something great.
[39:47] And I think that ultimately that's what drives me,
[39:52] what drove me to be engaged in the profession.
[39:56] It's what drives me to continue to be a servant to the profession.
[40:02] Because there's always a place where we will be needed.
[40:06] There will always be a place where nursing is needed.
[40:10] And if we want to succeed as a profession and we want to be seen as professionals just alongside our physician counterparts,
[40:20] then we need to be of service to the profession. We need to get advanced degrees and we need to showcase those skills and talents and some of those things that we didn't even know that we came across during our journey.
[40:33] I mean, I'm different than when I started,
[40:36] you know, in so many different ways. The way I think,
[40:40] the way I speak to others,
[40:42] what I feel from others and how to internalize that and help them get through challenging situations.
[40:48] If I'm not a nurse to patients, right now I'm being a nurse to my students,
[40:54] to the programs still putting in that caring nature and that service mindset.
[41:00] So that's what keeps me going. That's why I keep doing.
[41:04] Michelle: Just goes to show that all of those skills that we have as nurses are transferable to.
[41:11] Just as you said,
[41:13] I'm not a nurse right now to patients, but I am a nurse to my students.
[41:18] And that comes with,
[41:20] you know, your instructional design as far as the empathetic instructional design and your philosophy of how you do things.
[41:29] And I think it's fantastic.
[41:33] Are nursing students encouraged to join professional organizations if they're not already members?
[41:41] Nancy: Yes. All throughout the curriculum,
[41:43] especially in Capstone,
[41:45] I have created a segment that talks about professionalism in nursing and went and put together a library of resources for students links so that they don't have to go search and find themselves and talk about the benefits of advancing yourself as a professional and what being part of an organization means and that they have voice,
[42:11] that they are not only advocates for the patient, but they're advocates for change.
[42:15] There's no greater change agent than the nurse.
[42:18] We showcase a few people who have actually done amazing things in nursing. We actually have. In one course,
[42:26] we have an interview with a flight nurse that is now going to seeking office for a legislator position,
[42:36] but actually had had a bill passed into law.
[42:39] And this was about workplace violence.
[42:42] You know, that you can mobilize your thoughts into actions. So we show them how to empower themselves and the feedback. And I design these capstones very much like the capstones that I have taught.
[42:53] I've taken a lot of the good out of, you know, it's a culmination of. Of my experience as teaching capstone, but also designing capstone in that want to. Want students to feel like they're empowered to create positive change.
[43:09] And you can do that by way of engagement. And professional organizations, you can do that by way of launching a small scale quality improvement project.
[43:18] That there are so many ways for you to enhance yourself professionally.
[43:23] So time is dedicated in every course to help them realize that it's out there. It's just. It's out there for the taking. They just need to do it.
[43:33] Michelle: Yeah, I love that. I love that you're stressing that. And in the, in the form of, you know, professionalism, it is part of being a professional nurse. And I'm a big fan.
[43:43] I was a member of NANN for over two decades and there's just so many benefits to professional organizations. And, you know, anybody that's heard me talk about it over the last few years is like,
[43:58] yeah, there she goes again, talking about professional organizations. But maybe, you know, the next time I talk about it, somebody will be like, hey, you know what? Maybe she's onto something.
[44:09] Maybe I will join a professional organization. Because she talks about it so much and her guests talk about it so much, and maybe there is benefit. So just keep on doing what we're doing.
[44:20] Right.
[44:21] Nancy: I have been a standing member of AORN sincebI started.
[44:26] Michelle: Yep.
[44:27] Nancy: And now I have a bunch of others that I'm, you know, a party to. And I just served as vice president in Sigma Theta Tau for the online chapter.
[44:38] And you just learn a lot. You learn a lot about the nursing community,
[44:42] about others, about what's going on in the rest of the country.
[44:45] Michelle: Yes.
[44:46] Nancy: Kind of breaks you out of your own silo, if you will. And it just helps broaden your mind.
[44:53] Michelle: Yeah, I think that's important that you brought up, you know, it gets you out of your own silo. Because I will say from from my standpoint, I was at the same institution for 40 years.
[45:10] So I say that sometimes proudly,
[45:13] and then I also kind of say that sometimes with a little bit of embarrassment,
[45:19] because in one way, it's like,
[45:22] I think there's a benefit to working in different institutions or because you have different.
[45:30] You have different views, you have different ways of doing things. And I know that,
[45:37] you know, sadly, in my institution, when I was a new pediatric nurse,
[45:41] we would have nurses that moved here from, you know, San Francisco,
[45:46] that worked at Stanford and UCSF,
[45:49] And they weren't coming in, trying to change things, but they were like, you know what? At our institution, we used to do it this way.
[45:57] And I found that a lot of the nurses that were kind of born and bred at home in our institution were kind of resentful to those nurses. Like, oh,
[46:08] you do it this way at your hospital,
[46:11] and so therefore you're better. And it's like, no, that. That wasn't where they were coming from at all. They were saying,
[46:18] there's not just one way to do things there, there are many ways, and this might be a better way. Why don't we try it? And I feel like
[46:29] As nurses, where I was like, we weren't very open to that.
[46:33] And I just think that having a kind of a wider view might enrich your experiences as a nurse and make you be a better nurse.
[46:47] So that's just my opinion on that.
[46:49] Nancy: You know, you raise a really good point because even in the discussions that we have in our programs,
[46:58] we want students to share their perspectives because they'll one understand whether or not, or see whether or not what they're doing in their practice is the same across the country,
[47:11] or they didn't think of it that way. Here's a new way to do it. Or,
[47:16] yeah, that's a great idea.
[47:17] I've learned that too, from the capstone.
[47:19] Like, all of the capstone discussions are set up like debriefing.
[47:23] So we want the students to come in, talk about your project.
[47:26] Where are you? How are things? What's going well? What's not going well? And then, students,
[47:31] you get peer support.
[47:33] So it's almost like when you are working on a joint project for a nursing association, it's the same thing. You're coming in, you're weighing in, everybody's giving their perspectives, and then you're coming together to form a solution.
[47:46] And it's kind of helping them understand. That group think really does solve a lot of problems. We have a lot to learn from one another.
[47:55] But you need to break out of your own little mold in order to do that.
[48:00] Michelle: Yeah. And that's where I felt like,
[48:03] for me as a nurse, professionally, like I wasn't breaking out of that mold early on.
[48:08] I will say, when I became a member of NANN,
[48:12] one of the benefits of that organization and many professional organizations is they have listservs.
[48:19] And so we were a growing NICU.
[48:23] By this time, I had moved into NICU
[48:25] and we were growing really quickly in terms of our patient volume and our patient acuity. Our patients were much smaller and sicker.
[48:37] And then we had brought in neonatology groups, but where before we didn't have that. So our learning curve was huge. And NANN afforded me the opportunity to talk to nurses all across the world.
[48:53] What are you doing in your NICU as pertaining to this problem or challenge?
[49:00] And it just broadened our whole scope and our whole experience,
[49:06] so such a benefit. I won't stop talking about it.
[49:11] Nancy: Well, you know, and just to add one more thing, going to conferences.
[49:16] Michelle: Yes.
[49:16] Nancy: Getting out there and networking.
[49:18] Michelle: Yes.
[49:19] Nancy: It may seem like a laborious effort, but submit an abstract,
[49:23] submit a poster,
[49:24] get out there, and it'll help you break out of your shell.
[49:28] As I mentioned, I'm an introvert, but when I'm at these functions,
[49:32] I feel a metamorphosis. I change.
[49:36] I adapt to the community.
[49:38] And you get to learn a lot of different things about people from an international standpoint. I learned so much about what's happening in impoverished countries and how they're trying to improve care through technology and connectivity and all that, that I wouldn't have known had I just sat at my desk.
[49:57] Michelle: Yeah,
[49:58] so true. So true.
[50:00] Okay, well, as we get ready to close here, I have another question for you.
[50:04] And in your opinion, Nancy, is there something lacking from nursing curriculum?
[50:11] Like, if you had all the power in the world to change something, add something, take something away from nursing curriculum,
[50:19] what would it be?
[50:21] Nancy: I would say a focus on interprofessional communication.
[50:26] It seems so basic,
[50:29] something so fundamental.
[50:31] The one thing I learned after having a full career and coming into nursing late in Life. I was 38 when I went to school.
[50:39] So I'm going to school with a lot of younger nurses.
[50:42] Yeah, I had kids at home.
[50:45] What I learned was,
[50:48] and what befuddled me is that communication, effective communication, is one of the most fundamental tools we have in our toolbox as a nurse.
[50:58] Fundamental.
[51:00] But somehow we get caught up, and
[51:03] We have these barriers in communication where we feel like we can't talk to the physician. We can't talk to the other care providers.
[51:10] And I think that throughout CSU's nursing curriculum,
[51:16] Interprofessional communication and collaboration is threaded through every single course,
[51:20] because I felt like it was missing and there was not enough emphasis on it. They have to report on it in their assignments. They have to talk about their feelings on it and how they plan.
[51:30] Like, if it's a quality improvement project, well, how do you plan to address communicating with your other caregivers that are going to touch this improvement project or that are going to be touched by it?
[51:41] So it's threaded through the entire curriculum.
[51:44] Michelle: I love it.
[51:47] Should be the cornerstone of every curriculum because it is just fundamental to what we do as nurses.
[51:57] We communicate. That's what we have to do.
[52:00] And I'm just learning so much now from my guests who are teaching soft skills and those things that are so important that I think nurses, sometimes we.
[52:12] We overlook the easy things.
[52:15] We just seem to gravitate toward the difficult or the hard. I don't know if it's just, like, we constantly want to challenge ourselves,
[52:25] but if it's too easy, it seems like it's so basic. Like you said, it's so basic, and maybe we're, you know, cutting off our nose despite our face at, like,
[52:36] kind of discounting it, you know, like, of course I know how to communicate.
[52:40] Like, everybody does, right?
[52:43] No,
[52:43] everybody does not.
[52:46] So I love that it is part of your curriculum. And if anyone can learn anything today, like,
[52:52] please, let's make it part of the curriculum.
[52:57] Nancy: It's very basic. You know, it just means we have to slow down our mind and think about the situation,
[53:05] you know, and enhance our communication skills so that we're empathetic to one another, creating a caring environment.
[53:13] And as a clinical nurse educator, every year I started the year the competency training started with back to basics. They all rolled their eyes,
[53:23] but it was about effective communication and how are we going to make things better. You want a better workplace? It starts with talking, well, to each other instead of talking over or under each other.
[53:34] Michelle: Yes. I love it. Let's not discount the easy. Right? Let's not discount the basic.
[53:41] I love it. Well, I have just had so much fun talking to you today, Nancy.
[53:47] I just learn so much every time I think I know something, and then I just,
[53:53] I get schooled every time, and I absolutely love it.
[53:57] And I have gotten so many great guests by recommendations from other guests. You don't have to answer this right now. We can talk offline. But is there someone that you recommend as a guest on this podcast?
[54:12] Nancy: I would highly recommend Dr. Bonnie Khem.
[54:17] She may have already met with you, I'm not sure, but she's the dean of Columbia Southern University's College of Nursing and Health Sciences.
[54:25] Engaging,
[54:27] worldly. She's been out there speaking in different countries and can, can really add a great worldview perspective to nursing.
[54:37] She's also pediatrics, so you'll enjoy commiserating.
[54:43] Michelle: Love it. All right, well, introduce us. That sounds fantastic. And where can we find you if people want to reach out to you Nancy?
[54:51] Nancy: Columbia Southern University. I am the academic program director for the College of Nursing and it's Nancy.bellucci@columbiasouthern.edu
[55:03] Michelle: Very good. I will put that in the show notes.
[55:07] Well, thank you, Nancy.
[55:09] Never disappointed, never disappointed talking to anyone in academia.
[55:16] you know, I just feel like I've been talking to a friend today. We've had a lot of laughs and you're just such a down to earth person.
[55:24] I'm always,
[55:26] you know, I cannot lie. I'm always a little bit intimidated when I read people's bios and they're so accomplished and they have all these letters behind their name and I'm just like freaking out.
[55:37] Oh, no, what am I going to ask this person? What are we going to talk about? I know the interview's only going to be, you know, five minutes long,
[55:45] and here we've been at it for an hour. And I've just learned so much and I appreciate you so much.
[55:51] Nancy: Thank you. The pleasure and the privilege has been all mine. I really appreciate the opportunity.
[55:56] And just remember, the letters are ladders.
[55:59] That's the way I look at it. My letters are ladders. It's just a journey where I climbed in a different direction. Everybody has their ladders.
[56:08] Michelle: So true. Thank you for that.
[56:10] Well, we've reached the end and so we're at the last five minutes of the show, which means we're at the five minute snippet.
[56:18] I don't know if you're, if you're aware of this, but at the end we do this little, little kind of off duty where you're not a PhD,
[56:27] you know, you're just regular Nancy. So are you ready to play?
[56:32] Nancy: Sure.
[56:34] Michelle: Okay. You're gonna have fun, I swear.
[57:16] Okay. Convince me to live in your hometown.
[57:20] Nancy: Well,
[57:21] Michelle, you have got to come to my hometown.
[57:25] If we're talking about my new hometown, which is Flagler Beach.
[57:29] There is the beach on one side and the Intercoastal Waterway on the other.
[57:33] There's no shortage of sun and the people are friendly and the air is wonderful and crisp early in the morning, but beautiful and smells like beach sand.
[57:46] And we moved here because we wanted more of the warmth. I'm a Jersey girl in my heart. That's where I was born and raised.
[57:54] But come visit me in Flagler.
[57:57] Michelle: I love it. You had me beach. Awesome. Okay, what would you ask for if you weren't afraid of hearing no?
[58:09] Nancy: Hmmm, what would I ask for if I wasn't afraid of hearing no?
[58:14] I think that what I would ask for is really just more attention.
[58:22] Some great, amazing attention for all those who are homeless, veteran or otherwise. That I could just have a boundless place. Didn't know money wasn't an issue,
[58:34] but a place where no one would be homeless.
[58:37] Michelle: Man, I love that. Let's all ask for that. Okay, there's a billboard on a major highway and it has your picture on it. Nancy, what is the message?
[58:50] Nancy: Come to Columbia Southern University and take advantage of our College of nursing programs.
[58:56] Michelle: Oh, wow. I love it. That is awesome. Okay, tell me one thing on your desk that would be really difficult to give up.
[59:07] Nancy: A picture of my beloved pup, Jersey, who passed away a couple of years ago. He is my forever love.
[59:16] Michelle: Man,
[59:17] those connections are so deep.
[59:20] Yeah, I had an American Eskimo and a Yorkie poo and they're both the same age and they both lived to 16 and I still think about them all the time.
[59:33] Yep,
[59:35] I get it.
[59:36] What is one skill from your days in the operating room that you will never lose?
[59:43] Nancy: My ability to set up a table. My organization, I mean, like crazy organized,
[59:49] but I used to love to set my table up and have it just look perfect.
[59:54] Michelle: I love it, just screams OR nurse.
[59:58] Nancy: Yes, it does.
[01:00:01] Michelle: Did you have a favorite childhood game?
[01:00:04] Nancy: Believe it or not,
[01:00:05] swing the statue.
[01:00:07] I mean, we were kids. We were kids who didn't have a lot. We grew up very poor. So you had to kind of make your own fun.
[01:00:14] So swing the statue is when you go outside and you basically swing each other around. Not the safest.
[01:00:22] There was a lot of skinned knees and bruises,
[01:00:25] but boy, did we have some fun.
[01:00:27] Michelle: Oh my gosh. I'd never heard of that one. That's awesome.
[01:00:31] Grew up with seven brothers and sisters and we never played swing the statue.
[01:00:37] Okay.
[01:00:39] I always do this before a presentation.
[01:00:45] Nancy: Take deep breaths. Mindfulness.
[01:00:50] Michelle: Me too, yes.
[01:00:51] Before every interview, I do my deep breathing.
[01:00:56] Love it. Okay,
[01:00:58] so today I have absolutely seen your undeniable passion for what you do as a nurse, as a nurse educator.
[01:01:07] What lights you up outside of work?
[01:01:11] Nancy: My family,
[01:01:13] in particular,
[01:01:15] my grandson and my brand new grandbaby who just came into the world a couple of months ago.
[01:01:23] So to be around them and to really absorb that energy, enthusiasm, and wide eyed, everything's amazing.
[01:01:33] That's fun because it just really returns you to a place of joy, bliss.
[01:01:39] Michelle: 100% agree with that. Love being with my grandkids. There's nothing like it.
[01:01:44] The wonder,
[01:01:45] right? The wonder at everything.
[01:01:48] And if we could just capture, you know,
[01:01:51] 1% of that, man,
[01:01:53] our whole lives would change. Our world would change.
[01:01:57] Okay.
[01:01:57] Nancy: Not to mention everything that Nana does is amazing and fun.
[01:02:02] Michelle: Yes. You know you hang the moon, right? Yes. Okay. What is the first thing you do when you get to your travel destination?
[01:02:13] Nancy: Breathe.
[01:02:14] Take a deep breath.
[01:02:16] Not a, I don't love traveling, so take a deep breath, I made it. So if you've ever traveled with me, you would know I am a human cyclone. There's always something that goes wrong.
[01:02:28] So if I make it to the destination.
[01:02:30] Michelle: Two thumbs up, right.
[01:02:33] I don't often talk to people who share my,
[01:02:37] I won't say a dislike of travel, I'll say an unease of travel.
[01:02:42] And so I think, yeah, first thing I do, I, I say a prayer of thanks. Thank you for getting me here.
[01:02:49] And now I'm gonna go enjoy myself.
[01:02:53] I love it. Nancy, I have just really loved talking to you and thank you so much for just bringing your professionalism and your passion and your joy and humor and everything that you have brought to the profession, to your students and to our listeners today.
[01:03:12] Thank you so much again.
[01:03:13] Nancy: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
[01:03:17] Michelle: You have a great rest of your day.
[01:03:19] Nancy: Thank you.