Ehlers-Danlos Warrior, Heather Vails

Heather Vails, MSN Ed. RNC-NIC, is definitely in my badass nurse category. She has lived with the rare genetic disorder Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, or EDS, for decades. She has not only lived, she’s thrived. After a long career as a NICU nurse, she recently left the bedside, a place she loved dearly to venture into teaching our new generation of nurses as a Professor of Pediatrics. Listen as she educates us about this rare condition and how she has not let EDS slow her down.
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[00:00] Michelle: Heather Vails is definitely in my badass nurse category. She has lived with the rare genetic disorder Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, or EDS, for decades. She has not only lived, she has thrived. After a long career as a NICU nurse, she recently left the bedside, a place she loved dearly to venture into teaching our new generation of nurses as a professor of pediatrics. Listen as she educates us about this rare condition and how she has not let EDS slow her down. Here is Heather Vails. You're listening to the conversing nurse podcast. I'm Michelle, your host. And this is where together, we explore the nursing profession, one conversation at a time. Well, welcome, Heather.
[00:55] Heather: Hi.
[00:57] Michelle: Thank you so much for saying yes to being on the podcast.
[01:01] Heather: Thank you for asking.
[01:04] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. So you are here today because like many nurses, you have a chronic condition, a chronic illness, and we're going to talk today about what a badass you are because you're definitely in my badass nurse category.
[01:26] Heather: Oh, thank you.
[01:28] Michelle: Yes. You know, I've just watched you over the years and how you have battled this disease and just continue to excel in your life in all kinds of ways and I've just had so much respect for you. But let's just get started and give our listeners just kind of a brief overview of what Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome is.
[01:56] Heather: Alright, well, thank you. Some days I don't think I'm very much of a badass, but I'm glad you think so. Ehlers-Danlos, there's actually 13 different types now. It's a connective tissue disorder. And so what that means is literally anything within the body that is connective tissue can have defects ranging from the brain, joints, heart, lungs, gut, anything that you can think of. Most people tend to have joint instability or hypermobility. We tend to have like velvety soft skin. And you know it when you feel it. It's a very different feel than someone's normal skin. We also can have stretchy skin. We scar differently. So Ehlers-Danlos can affect all sorts of different areas in the body. Mine per se is more of the hypermobile Danlos, so far they have not been able to connect it to an actual gene just yet. They're working on it. They are doing multiple research studies trying to find if there's an actual gene that causes this hypermobility portion of Ehlers-Danlos, that being said, though, my son does have the genetic form of Ehlers-Danlos that is findable. I guess you could say he's got the cardiac valve type, which makes his blood vessels a little more weak. So that's a whole new level there.
[03:59] Michelle: Yeah, that's a lot. That was actually one of my questions because I know that Evan shares this disease with you and like you just said, he has kind of a different branch of it. How is your approach with him being as you actually know what he's going through, you know, what he's feeling? What's that like?
[04:24] Heather: Some days it's hard. Well, it's hard, and it's easy at the same time. I know that sounds completely contrary, but it's hard because you never, ever want to see your kid hurting. You never want to see your kid in pain. But it's easy because I do understand what his pain feels like, and so it makes it easier for me to go, okay, hey, I get it. You're hurting today. Let's take a break. Let's take some Ibuprofen, take some Tylenol, put a heat pack on it, you know, whatever is hurting that day, and watch a movie. Right. So it makes it easier in that respect because I can relate to him. I know what that pain feels like.
[05:11] Michelle: Exactly.
[05:12] Heather: But of course, you never want your kid to hurt. You never want your child to be in tears. You never want to see your child dislocate an elbow or a knee. That just sucks.
[05:26] Michelle: Yeah, that's got to be so hard.
[05:29] Heather: But we muddled through that part, and I taught him a few of my tricks from when my knee goes out. We just here's what you do. You got to let all those muscles relax and do some deep breaths, and then you straighten your leg out, and it pops right back in. So he's kind of starting to figure that out, and he's getting better there, too, but it is a chronic pain issue. Yeah, for sure.
[05:58] Michelle: Yeah, we'll talk about that in a moment. Just go through some of the symptoms that you have had with this disease.
[06:08] Heather: Oh, goodness. Looking way back when, I was, like, eight years old, I used to freak out because my knees would I called it, lockout, or I couldn't move them because they would literally be, they would slide out of place, and then I couldn't move, and I would yell to my mom, mom, my knees are locked. I can't move, you know, and so then she would have to come to help me kind of straighten my leg. At no time did we ever say, oh, we got to go to the doctor. Something's wrong with you. That never happened. We just dealt with it over the years. As I got older, everything was attributed to growing pains. Oh, you're just growing. You're growing really fast. You're going to have growing pains. That's why your legs hurt. That's why your back hurts. So, okay, I guess that's what it is, right? As I got older and into high school, I still stayed incredibly active. I loved sports. I did all of them. Everything that I could, I wanted to do, right? So dancing, swimming, played volleyball, was on color guard for Golden West. I had fun, you know?
[07:28] Michelle: That sounds so much like you.
[07:30] Heather: Yes, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. I paid for it, though, because while I kept a smile on my face and I did all the things I loved to do on the weekends when I didn't have anything, I would load up on Ibuproprofen and Tylenol and I pretty much stayed in bed. And of course, my parents called me lazy and you need to get up and do something, but literally, my body would just ache, and it just kind of seemed to stay at that level for quite a while. And then into my twenties, I had my first child at 27. I had back pain, I had hip pain, but I was also pregnant. So, you know, I was like, okay, that's what that is, right? I've never had it before, so that's got to be where the pain is coming from. He was born early, which apparently is also a symptom of Ehlers-Danlos. We don't like to hold our babies in very long because, well, our uterus is super stretchy as well. And then when I got pregnant with Evan, my second child, I had a lot more issues. My hips almost felt like they were going to go out of socket. Like every time I would take a step, my back hurt, but it was like ten times worse. So it was totally different than my first pregnancy. I got really, really sick. My heart just couldn't handle that extra blood volume and I went into a kind of like pseudo-congestive heart failure because of it, which is super scary because you cannot breathe and yeah, it causes panic. And then, of course, he wanted to be born super early as well. So I was put on bed rest, practically lived on my head to keep that child in there so that he could grow. That almost made the pain worse because I wasn't moving, I wasn't keeping those muscles engaged. So it was this like handoff. Like my pain was increased, but I was able to stay pregnant long enough to obviously get him here. And now he's twelve and thriving and doing fine. But yeah, just a lot of different little issues that as I've gotten older have just kind of increased. Almost as if somebody was turning up that volume knob. The longer I worked, I noticed like, okay, yeah, my back, my shoulders are hurting more, my back is hurting more. I thought, okay, well, all of my doctors just told me, hey, you need to be more active, like go to yoga, lift weights. So I thought, okay, well, if I need to be more active, I'm going to do martial arts. Because I've always wanted to try it, right? So got into martial arts, got into kickboxing, and yes, it did help for a little while, but it almost made it worse towards the very end of it because the overstretching, throwing high kicks, things like that, overstretched all of those ligaments. And then I started having issues with my hip sliding in and out of place, my knee dislocating more. Back pain was like ramped up times ten. So eventually I went to the doctor and I was like, I can't take this anymore. Like, this is ridiculous. There is something not right. Finally did an X-ray and found that, yeah, there really wasn't something that was right in my back. Everything was shifted. I had my L-4 slide almost completely over my L-5 vertebrae, and that was what was pinching and causing pain. And then after that, they wound up doing my first big surgery, a lumbar fusion. And that was okay. I recouped from that. But work was getting more difficult for me because being on my feet for 12 hours really wreaked havoc on my body. I would go home from work and literally just lay in bed. And some days I would just lay there in tears because all of my muscles would either cramp up or they would just ache, almost like when you have the flu ache. And it was horrible.
[12:42] Michelle: Well, that is a lot, that's really heavy stuff. I was really listening when you were saying that some of your healthcare professionals along the way well, first of all, you probably got some misdiagnoses along the way, which is pretty common with EDS, is what I was reading. But, like, how do you approach people that say, you don't look sick, you look totally healthy, you look normal?
[13:11] Heather: I always ask them, well, what does sick look like? First of all, the point, right? It's interesting because the outside me, you see the smile, I just keep going. I'm the Energizer Bunny, right on the inside. There are days where I'm dying, it hurts, everything hurts, and I'm dying. Right? That meme. That is me some days.
[13:43] Michelle: But did you die? You're like, yeah, I did.
[13:46] Heather: Yes, I sure did today. But ultimately, I think part of that does stem from having doctors not believe me, telling me that, oh, it's in your head, you're too young to have that much pain, that I was lying, or it's anxiety or you're just depressed. Well, yes, I was depressed, and yes, I still do battle with that, but it's a vicious pain cycle, you know? So the more pain you're in, the more depressed you get, and the more depressed you get, the more your body physically responds and you have more pain, right? So, yes, there was that vicious cycle. However, I really wish that just one doctor would have listened when I said my back hurts really bad, to the point where I feel like my legs are heavy. And I got told that, oh, you're fine. You probably just pulled a muscle. Okay.
[15:01] Michelle: Well, I mean, healthcare providers minimizing symptoms and stuff, that's a real issue in our profession. How do you think that you relate to your patients who experience chronic pain?
[15:18] Heather: There definitely is relatability. I do have that genuine ability to say, hey, look, I get it. I get that you are hurting, and we're going to do what we can to help you, but we can't fix it. We can't ever make it go away. But I think it does give me that edge to sympathize and empathize with them because I do know what it feels like. But I also won't let myself live in that depressed pain state if I can get from my bed to my couch with my blanket to watch television. I have accomplished like 10,000 things that day. But there are other days where I wake up and I'm like, all right, cool, I feel pretty decent today. And I'll get up and I'll clean the house, I'll do laundry, I'll take the dogs for walks, and I feel fine. Right. So it's one of those things that I think people see me do all these things, taking the dogs for a walk, cleaning my house, doing laundry, and they're like, oh yeah, she's not really sick, or oh yeah, no, she can't hurt that bad, right? Some of it you just kind of have to push through. Otherwise, I wouldn't do anything ever.
[16:40] Michelle: Exactly. Yeah. And you've accomplished so much. I mean, NICU nurse for many years. Excellent NICU nurse. And then you talked a little bit about this of like, having to leave the bedside because of EDS, something that you loved and something that you were so good at. And I mean, how did that feel? What kind of emotions did you go through?
[17:06] Heather: Having to leave the bedside was incredibly hard. I love NICU, like I love those little babies, but my body just wouldn't let me do it anymore. And it was very, very difficult for me to make that decision in the first place. I knew I had gone back to school, I got my master's degree. I knew like, eventually, someday I wanted to teach. I didn't think that someday was going to be in my forties. I was thinking it was going to be later on down the line, you know, 50, the sixties, like then I'll go teach, right? But after having my neck surgery, I had to deal with this realization that, you know what, your body is not going to let you do this anymore. Your body is breaking down faster than you can recover. And so that was hard. That was hard to really grasp and hold on to. And the day that I had to I called my manager and said, I won't be coming back, was probably one of the more difficult days of my life. Cause I was like, man, I could do this, right? Like I can do like, you know, maybe a couple of days a week. But I know that pushing my body through a twelve-hour shift, I know what I felt like the next day. And I knew that that probably wasn't going to work, especially after having my next surgery. And I could only hold my head up for about 8 hours before like the major pain started kicking in and I would have to go lay flat.
[18:53] Michelle: You know, was I reading this Brazilian research study. It came from 2007, Nurses with Chronic Illnesses. And it talks about exactly what you're talking about right now, that nurses that had to leave the bedside because of their chronic condition felt like an overwhelming sense of failure, like, I failed and I can't finish this. And it sounds like that's probably why we just keep going. We just keep ignoring our body, ignoring the signals. We also love it. Right. But gosh, that has to be, like, so heavy. So go back to becoming a pediatric nursing professor and, you know, I want to know, how do you how does your experience as a nurse with a chronic condition, how does that influence what and how you teach your students?
[20:00] Heather: Well, what I teach my students is, one, listen to your patients. I don't care how old they are. If they are three years old and they tell you that their back hurts or their foot hurts, we listen to them. Right. Because for the longest time, all I wanted was to be heard. I wanted somebody in that medical profession to just listen to me right, listen to that complaint. So I definitely take that into the classroom with I do have to say that being the pediatric nursing professor does still fulfills me. I love it. And the fact that I get to do clinicals with my students means I get to go back in and see those sweet babies that I used to take care of and go onto the Peds floors and help them out there, which I absolutely love. But I also can listen to my body as well, so I get to sit down when I need to, and I can get up, move around, do whatever. If I need to move, I can move. If I need to sit, I can sit.
[21:16] Michelle: The best of both.
[21:18] Heather: Yes, it's been pretty nice in that respect, but yeah, I mean, I think I also teach more compassion to my students and to have that ability to hear their patient figure out what's going on with their patient. And even if they can't figure out what's going on with their patient, at least they're listening and they're passing it on or telling the doctor so that they can maybe, hopefully, get to the bottom of whatever it is. Right. It's rare to have a genetic disorder. I mean, it's not especially like Ehlers- Danlos. It's rare, we don't present ourselves the same, and so it's harder to find, honestly, I bet if you put a room of ten EDS patients together, you would have maybe one or two very similar experiences. So it's very interesting. Some of us have back pain, some have foot pain, some have hand pain, migraine headaches. It's just the range of symptoms is so crazy. And so that is one thing that I always tell my students, too, is to listen to all of the symptoms that the patient is talking about right? They might not make any lick of sense to you, right? And they may be totally wonky and not relate together, but write them down, because somewhere down the line they'll connect.
[23:06] Michelle: Yeah, well, you're that first line. I've had this conversation with myself and other nurses about the nursing profession, in terms of nurses being empathetic, and are you born with that? Is that something that you can teach? And I think as a professor, you certainly can give insight into other people's pain, into your own pain, and bring that to the attention of your students. And it doesn't necessarily have to be an issue about pain. It could be anything. You know, if your patient is depressed, I mean, most people at some point in their life they've been depressed and they can kind of say, yeah, I know what that feels like, or anxious, any of those things. But you're the first line like you're teaching this new generation, it's so important. There's one thing that I really wanted to know if you had the same experience. So you remember my journey with breast cancer?
[24:14] Heather: Yeah.
[24:15] Michelle: Okay. So two times in my life I've been a patient. The first time was when I had my daughter. I was 22 years old. And then the second time I had breast cancer and I was 45 years old. Well, the first time 22 years old, I'd been a nurse for eleven months. I had a fourth-degree tear. My daughter wasn't breastfeeding. And almost from every nurse in the hospital, they said, you should know how to do this, you're a nurse. And one of the things I was grateful for is when I went through my breast cancer journey, nobody ever said that to me. They treated me like I didn't know anything about cancer, mastectomy, or chemotherapy, and I just so appreciated just being able to just be a person. Did you have a similar experience with anyone telling you, you should know all about EDS? You're a nurse.
[25:20] Heather: Yes. I jokingly say that I have to educate my doctors, but it's not really a big joke because when I went in to see the neurosurgeon for my lumbar spine, he had no clue what EDS was.
[25:44] Michelle: So rare, right? You really do have to educate the medical community because they're probably going to see one patient in their whole career.
[25:57] Heather: Yeah, it is rare. So now anytime I see a new doctor, I just tend to take a little pamphlet with me and say, this is Ehlers-Danlos, this is what I have. You take a look at this.
[26:13] Michelle: Educate yourself.
[26:14] Heather: So here's some homework before you see me next time.
[26:17] Michelle: I love it.
[26:20] Heather: But no, it was funny though, because I had to explain to this neurosurgeon why my bones and my ligaments are different, right? All of that connective tissue is different in me. It's not going to react the same to surgery as someone else. And so that was the first appointment, just meeting him, he kind of gave me that, like, yeah, whatever. I'm a doctor, I get it. Okay, cool, fine, whatever. Make your next appointment, right? So I make my next appointment, I show up, they put me in that room and I'm just sitting there kind of like, alright, here we go again. Right? Because usually, it takes two or three times for me explaining all of this before it really sinks in. And this doctor walked in and I have to say, like, he amazed me and I was kind of in awe. He sat down and he was like, I am really sorry. What you go through every day must be horrible. And I was like, thank you. I think, right?
[27:35] Michelle: You got the compassion gene when they do that.
[27:38] Heather: I was like, okay. I'm like, So I take it you did some research? And he was like, yeah, we're going to get you on the surgery schedule as soon as we possibly can and get this fixed. And I was like, okay, cool. And he was like, we're going to try and do it as small as we can so you don't have any scarring issues. And I was thinking to myself, yeah, okay, right, like that's going to happen. But no, I mean, he really did a wonderful job. And in the hospital, he came and checked up on me several times, and made sure that I was doing okay, and that everything looked fine. And it was really funny. I remember still being kind of groggy and like kind of in and out of anesthesia and it was the second day, but that stuff lingers in my system forever. Oh yeah, it's awful. I had this doctor come in and I was like, that's not my doctor. What the heck? And this guy walks up to me, he's like, you have Ehlers-Danlos what can you do? I'm like, wow, what can I do?
[28:47] Michelle: I don't know what you're talking about.
[28:48] Heather: I'm like I'm a person. I can do people things. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. He's like, oh my God, you can move. Really weird, right? And I'm like, oh yeah, I have hypermobility. He's like, I've never met anybody with it. And I'm like, oh no, you have. Right, exactly.
[29:10] Michelle: He can put that in his book and he'll hopefully have some insight into the next person that comes in. Like you talking about the same thing. Exactly.
[29:19] Heather: But yeah, that was one of my kind of a little more funny.
[29:26] Michelle: Yeah, exactly. Well, you have to keep it light sometimes, I would think, which leads to the next question. So one of the things that I started studying when I retired was the ancient Stoics, and they really impart a lot of wisdom. I'm really into that. But one of the sayings is memento mori, and it means, remember, you must die. Marcus Aurelius said memento mori. Remember, you must die. Let that dictate what you think, say and do every day. And my question for you is, do you ever think about this illness, like shortening your life?
[30:17] Heather: Yes, always.
[30:22] Michelle: How do you dictate what you say and do and think?
[30:27] Heather: In a way, I don't let it dictate my happiness because, and yet I do at the same time. So I have learned because this is a family genetic issue, I've seen my mom struggle with Ehlers-Danlos symptoms that we had no idea that that's actually what they were at the time. I saw my grandmother, her mom, deal with these symptoms along with the cardiac valvular symptoms like my youngest son has. And so she had mitral valve prolapse and chronic AFib. My uncle, who is my mom's brother, also had the same issues with mitral valve prolapse and chronic AFib, and he passed away at age 47 of an aortic aneurysm, which is classic to a T, vascular Ehlers-Danlos. He pretty much passed away, right at where they say the lifespan is. And now I think about it, this is the exact same thing that my son has. So is he only going to live to 47? And you have to enjoy those little things. And sometimes life is crappy, but you've got to make the most of what you're given, right? So do the small things that make you happy. Do the big things that make you happy, right? I did kickboxing. I wanted to do kickboxing. I did kickboxing. I had a blast. My body won't let me do it anymore. But you know what? I got out there and I tried and I did it, and I had fun. And now I'm on to water therapy and swimming and doing all these other things, and I'm totally getting into that, which is super fun.
[32:30] Michelle: Yeah, I remember your boxing days and I just would stand by in awe and be like, yeah, she is.
[32:37] Heather: Yeah, it's fun. I mean, don't get me wrong, I have pads at home and a heavy bag. I still go out there. I just know that I can't go up against an opponent anymore. But I kind of train on the deal. I try not to let my pain get in the way of doing fun things, making sure that my boys have fun in their life. Right. I want them to have that present mom that went with them to Magic Mountain, that went with them to Disneyland and didn't just sit on the bench because they hurt all day. They went out there and did stuff with them. So living life, showing them that, hey, you can have pain, you can hurt, but you also need to take care of that pain. There's pain management doctors out there, and mine is wonderful. Right. There are medications that allow you to go out there and live. And so, yeah, I use those medications. Some people ask me, well, aren't you afraid you're going to be addicted? And I'm like, how am I going to get addicted to something that is improving my quality of life? And the minute it's out of my body, I know because my pain is back and it's horrid. I think if you use those medications for the right reasons, you're not going to get addicted to them. And I can go a few days and not need them at all and then have those days where I'm like, nope, today we need the meds. Right. But it allows me to be in that moment. It allows me to be me and go hike and go camping and go to the beach. So I'm not going to let my Ehlers rule me in that way.
[34:40] Michelle: Well, I love that. What advice can you give to other nurses that have chronic illnesses?
[34:48] Heather: Number one, listen to your body. And if it's telling you that you need to take a break, I worked myself like crazy and I would just keep going. And that was probably one of the worst things that I could do for myself. So, you know, if you're having a day where you don't feel good and you can't move, you know what, it's okay to call in. The unit won't end without you there, I promise.
[35:25] Michelle: What? It won't just collapse?
[35:26] Heather: Yeah.
[35:28] Michelle: Right.
[35:29] Heather: Well, and I used to feel so guilty about calling in that I would literally feel like I was dying before I called in sick.
[35:40] Michelle: Yes.
[35:41] Heather: And my one thing to those with chronic illness, with chronic pain, is don't do that to yourself because it only drags you down. It only creates a deeper depression.
[35:56] Michelle: Yeah. It only drags you down. You're absolutely right. You're not dragging down anybody else. They'll survive. They'll live.
[36:03] Heather: Exactly.
[36:05] Michelle: You have to watch out for yourself. I said this, I think, in my last interview. You know, you can't pour from an empty cup. It's like nurses always put themselves on the back burner and put everyone, everyone needs, like, before theirs. And we just can't do that. We just can't do that, or there won't be any future for us.
[36:33] Heather: It was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. Oh, my gosh, what are they going to do if I'm not there? Well, they will carry on. You know, they will. My other piece of advice is don't stop moving. I know it hurts, and some days are worse than others on the days that it's really bad, OK? You can have your day on the couch, in your bed with your heating pad, but then if you feel good, move. You need to move. I know it sounds like some physical therapist is talking in my ear, right? But I really, truly believe that if you don't use it, you will lose it. And pain will keep creeping up higher and stronger and take you over if you're not moving. And so I try to walk at least a mile every day. And my dog likes this too. Because then she gets to go on walks, but at least a mile. Even if I'm hurting, I try to walk a mile. And I've figured out a little loop, like, around my house, you know, that okay. If I do this loop, then I can get a mile. So it works, but it's not a huge movement. I'm not saying go out and join a gym or go join kickboxing or anything like that. Just move your body. Walk, swim. Swimming is amazing. Let me just tell you. Great weights for water. I did not know this. It is the coolest thing ever. So you can lift weights underwater.
[38:24] Michelle: Great.
[38:25] Heather: Yeah, it is awesome. Don't stop moving.
[38:30] Michelle: That's great advice. Wow. Well, you have just been such a wealth of information. I mean, you know the disease, and more importantly, you know yourself, and you respect yourself, and you give yourself what you need, and that's a great message for people, and in particular, nurses. So thank you so much for coming on here and talking about EDS. You schooled me on so much, so thank you for that. Are you ready to play the five-minute snippet?
[39:11] Heather: Sure. Let's do it.
[39:14] Michelle: Come on, baby. I know you're up.
[39:17] Heather: Never back down from a challenge. Let's go.
[39:20] Michelle: Okay, well, I have my little timer here, so we're just going to and I kind of know you, so I picked out some subjects that I think would resonate with you. So we'll just go for it. Okay.
[39:34] Heather: All right. Go for it.
[39:36] Michelle: So, your favorite true crime show of all time?
[39:40] Heather: TV or podcast?
[39:43] Michelle: One of each, if you have one.
[39:45] Heather: Morbid podcast. Amazing. The best. And for television, I'm old school. I love forensic files. Okay.
[39:58] Michelle: I love it. Let's see. I love this one. If you are forced into gladiatorial combat, but you could only choose one weapon that isn't typically considered a weapon. What nonconventional weapon would you choose?
[40:17] Heather: Okay, so it has to be nonconventional. Oh, my goodness. You know what? Either a sharpened pencil yeah, I would say a sharpened pencil. Yeah.
[40:28] Michelle: Okay, that's good. That sounds very weapon-like. What's your favorite music venue?
[40:36] Heather: Music venue. I actually love the festival scene. Like outdoors. It's fun.
[40:44] Michelle: If you could book your ultimate music festival, who would be your three headliners?
[40:51] Heather: Only three?
[40:53] Michelle: I was waiting to ask you that.
[40:57] Heather: Okay. Definitely Hailstorm. Love, Lizzy. Hail, for sure.
[41:03] Michelle: Okay.
[41:04] Heather: In this moment, because Maria Brink is awesome and Bullet for my Valentine.
[41:13] Michelle: Okay, I'm going to have to look into those.
[41:17] Heather: I have a metal head. Sorry.
[41:19] Michelle: Okay. No, don't be sorry. That's awesome. So, I know cooking and baking, you like all that stuff. So many cultures have a version of a pocket food, such as an empanada, samosas, or ravioli. What's your favorite?
[41:41] Heather: Empanadas, gluten-free, yeah, I got to make my own. Usually with a sweet filling, not savory.
[41:48] Michelle: Okay. I haven't had one of those rare, medium, or well-done.
[41:54] Heather: Rare.
[42:00] Michelle: People that say rare, they're special people. You get my respect. Okay. If you could estimate how many spices are in your kitchen right now oh, my gosh.
[42:13] Heather: There's a lot. I'd say at least 25.
[42:17] Michelle: Oh, wow. Okay.
[42:18] Heather: Yeah.
[42:20] Michelle: I love this one. Do you think someone in a domestic violence situation has a justified reason for naming or murdering their aggressor?
[42:33] Heather: Heck yeah.
[42:35] Michelle: Somehow I knew you, I think I know you too well.  Okay, we have a minute and 30 seconds, so we're going to do a few. Would you rather be forced to wear polka dots or paisley every day?
[42:58] Heather: Polka dots.
[43:00] Michelle: I knew it. I was like, she's not a paisley girl. I would wear the paisley. I'm not daring enough to wear polka-dots. Would you rather be a cab driver in New York City or a bike messenger in Chicago?
[43:19] Heather: Probably a cab driver in New York City. You meet some interesting people.
[43:25] Michelle: She likes to talk. She's so social. I can see her just striking up a conversation with everybody. But then I was like, you're very active, and I'm like, maybe she could ride her bike.
[43:37] Heather: Honestly, that was kind of a hard one, because yeah, I wondered back and forth.
[43:41] Michelle: Would you rather spend the night in a haunted mental institution or a haunted prison?
[43:50] Heather: A haunted mental institution.
[43:55] Michelle: Takes one to know one. Yeah.
[43:56] Heather: Hello. Certifiable right here.
[44:00] Michelle: I love it. Oh, my gosh, you've been so much fun. We even have an extra 5 seconds on our five-minute snippet. That's fun. Heather, again, I appreciate all the information that you've given our listeners. I linked your site to Ehlers-Danlos. Those will be in the show notes, and then those will also be on your bio on my website. So you guys check those out. Again, Heather, thank you so much.
[44:35] Heather: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. That was fun.
[44:38] Michelle: Super fun. You take care.
[44:40] Heather: You too. All right. Bye.