A Story of Grief and Growth with NICU Nurse, Jade Barrera

Do you believe in divine intervention? After waking early one morning with Jade on my mind, I couldn't help but feel once again that there’s something greater at work here.

Jade Barrera is a wife, a mother, and a NICU nurse. Having worked with her for many years, I’ve had the privilege of watching Jade grow from a novice nurse to a confident leader as charge nurse. As any nurse will tell you, we become a close-knit family, deeply familiar with one another's struggles and triumphs. We celebrated with Jade when she shared her pregnancy news, and we mourned with her when she lost her son, Theo, at just 19 weeks.

This is Jade's story—one of love, loss, and healing. It spans a full range of emotions, from grief and anger to joy and inspiration. I know it wasn’t easy for Jade to share her story, and I deeply admire her courage in doing so. I hope that, through her journey, we can find both insight into grief and inspiration for our own healing paths.

A quick postscript: After we recorded, Jade realized she hadn’t mentioned something important. After delivering Theo, she experienced lactogenesis—essentially, her body began producing colostrum. This typically happens around 20 weeks of pregnancy, and Jade delivered Theo at 19 weeks. In her words, “Emotionally, it felt like someone kicked me while I was down. I was devastated as it was, and it was amplified by the pain of my body doing something right. I was so upset that my body couldn't carry a baby to viability, but all of sudden wanted to be good at making milk when there was no baby to feed.”  I know that by Jade sharing her experiences and her deep emotions, we can view loss through a more compassionate lens. 

After such a heavy conversion, Jade and I owed it to ourselves to have five minutes of fun. In the five-minute snippet: it’s a new game called five words, five seconds each and guess what? No one’s counting. For Jade's bio, visit my website (link below).

Pregnancy After Loss Support

Jade's bookstore

Jade's email: jkfierros@att.net

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Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Do you believe in divine intervention?

[00:03] After waking early one morning with Jade on my mind, I couldn't help but feel once again that there's something greater at work here. Jade Barrera is a wife, mother and an ICU nurse.

[00:15] Having worked with her for many years, I've had the privilege of watching Jade grow from a novice nurse to a confident leader as charge nurse,

[00:25 As any nurse will tell you, we become a close-knit family, deeply familiar with one another's struggles and triumphs.

[00:33] We celebrated with Jade when she shared her pregnancy news and we mourned with her when she lost her son Theo at just 19 weeks.

[00:44] This is Jade's story, one of love, loss and healing. It spans a full range of emotions, from grief and anger to joy and inspiration.

[00:56] I know it wasn't easy for Jade to share her story,

[00:59] and I deeply admire her courage in doing so.

[01:03] I hope that through her journey we can find both insight into grief and inspiration for our own healing paths.

[01:13] A quick postscript. After we recorded, Jade realized she hadn't mentioned something important.

[01:20] After delivering Theo, she experienced lactogenesis. Essentially, her body began producing colostrum.

[01:29] This typically happens around 20 weeks of pregnancy. And Jade delivered Theo at 19 weeks.

[01:36] In her words,

[01:38] "Emotionally, it felt like someone kicked me while I was down.

[01:42] I was devastated as it was, and this was amplified by the pain of my body doing something right.

[01:50] I was so upset that my body couldn't carry a baby to viability,

[01:54] but all of a sudden wanted to be good at making milk when there was no baby to feed."

[02:00] I know that by Jade sharing her experiences and her deep emotions, we can view loss through a more compassionate lens.

[02:08] After such a heavy conversation, Jade and I owed it to ourselves to have five minutes of fun. In the five-minute snippet: It's a new game called five words, five seconds each and guess what?

[02:23] No one's counting.

[02:41] Well, hello Jade. Welcome to the podcast.

[02:44] Jade: Hi Michelle. So good to see you.

[02:46] Michelle: It is so good to see you and catch up.

[02:50] We met in the NICU when you started and all fresh-faced and new and full of energy and you're still that way.

[03:05] Jade: Maybe not quite so much, but yeah, I try.

[03:08] Michelle: Well, thank you for being here. You have an amazing story that people need to hear.

[03:15] And my prayer today is that you will find the words to tell your story and that your story can get out to the people who need to hear it.

[03:30] Jade: Absolutely. I agree with that prayer.

[03:33] Michelle: All right, so we're going to start with an introduction. Who is Jade Barrera?

[03:39] Jade: Who is Jade Barrera?

[03:42] Michelle: Loaded question.

[03:42] Jade: Loaded.

[03:44] I am a wife of nine, almost 10 years this year, we have two kiddos. One, our daughter Noah, she's three. And one who we didn't get to raise our sweet Theo.

[04:01] And we look forward to meeting him again in heaven someday.

[04:05] And I have been a NICU nurse for almost 10 years, this year.

[04:10] Michelle: I can't believe it.

[04:11] Jade: Yeah, you met me right when I was like a fresh baby nurse.

[04:14] Michelle: Yes.

[04:15] Jade: And I'm a charge nurse now at Kaweah Health, so that's new this year. I love houseplants. I brought you a little propagated gift, so.

[04:27] Michelle: Thank you.

[04:27] Jade: Couldn't come empty handed.

[04:29] Michelle: And I love plants too.

[04:31] Jade: And in my spare time, I like to bake.

[04:34] Michelle: Oh, bake. Yay. Okay. You'll have to give me some tips for, I'm not the greatest baker, but I do like to bake too.

[04:41] Jade: I like to say that I bake my feelings, which I've had a lot of feelings over the last year. So there has been a lot of baking.

[04:47] Michelle: A lot of baking. Some people clean, some people bake.

[04:51] Jade: Yes.

[04:52] Michelle: Okay, well, thank you for that. So let's talk about your work history. You said that you've been a nurse for 10 years.

[05:00] Jade: Yeah. August will be 10 years. Yeah.

[05:02] Michelle: That just blows me away.

[05:04] It's just like kids. It's like you, you grow up with your friends and they have kids and you imagine their kids still little and then you see them out and they're like teenagers.

[05:16] You're like, what the heck? They used to be little. So that's funny.

[05:21] Jade: I know. Well, so still sometimes at work I'm like, where's the adultier adult? And at some point I became, I'm it, the one in the room. But yeah.

[05:32] Michelle: Well, I had no doubt that you would be a charge nurse one day just because when you came to us, you already had so many strong leadership skills.

[05:44] You knew who you were as a person and I think that is really key.

[05:50] So you had your set of values and, and your beliefs and I'm sure those things like guided you in your nursing journey. Why did you want to be a nurse?

[06:05] Jade: You know, my mom is a medical assistant and she worked, you know, has worked in the medical field for Kaiser for many, many years. And she kind of always wished she had gone a little further and always encouraged me, like, be a nurse, be a doctor, you know,

[06:20] and it was always valued in our home to help and care for others. Like, my mom was always, I would say, like, she would take in strays. Like, she was just always meeting people who needed a helping hand or like, we'd always have an extra person at the dinner table kind of thing.

[06:37] Michelle: Nice.

[06:37] Jade: We did a lot of volunteer work and I took an anatomy class like my freshman year in high school, and I loved it.

[06:46] And then later on, 

[06:50] I had cancer when I was 16.

[06:53] And so during that I had thyroid cancer. And I kind of got, you know, before that I thought maybe I wanted to be a physician. And then going through that experience,

[07:02] I noticed how much the nurses were like one-on-one and more in contact with the patient versus the doctors, like coming in and out. And I really kind of took to that more.

[07:13] Like, that resonated with me more, having more, you know, contact with patients and then two. You know, as I got older, I knew that I wanted a family and I felt like nursing was a better choice for me.

[07:26] Michelle: Wow. So a lot of things affected your decision and you. So you had thyroid cancer as a teenager at 16? 

[07:37] Jade: 16.

[07:37] Michelle: Yeah. So you already had so much emotional intelligence to tell, I don't think this personality resonates with me, but this one that's more hands on and maybe spends more time and is more compassionate resonates with me more.

[07:55] Jade: Yeah.

[07:57] Michelle: That's very cool. And then did you go into the NICU right out of school?

[08:00] Jade: I did. Which was kind of like a newer thing at the time. It was for so long. It was like, everybody go to med surg and get your experience.

[08:08] Which that was still pretty common, but there was a few people who were like, well, you don't have to. And I really liked the adult ICU and the NICU. And I only got like two days in the NICU, so I was a little bit nervous.

[08:21] Like, I didn't know if that was going to be forever for me. But they called me back first and I just like went for it.

[08:29] Michelle: Was I on your interview panel?

[08:30] Jade: Well, I actually worked in Bakersfield for like three months before I worked at Kaweah. And then. Yeah, Kaweah, I don't recall if you were or not, but.

[08:39] Michelle: So crazy.

[08:40] Jade: Yeah.

[08:41] Michelle: So what was it about the NICU that you were like, I might want to do that?

[08:49] Jade: Well,

[08:51] one of my favorite.

[08:53] I mean, babies, they're just so innocent, right? They just,

[08:56] they just are. And I thought it was so neat to be able to work with families and in their time of need. And to this day, that's, you know, what keeps me there, is just the uniqueness of every birth story and every tiny human that we don't know what they're going to be,

[09:16] you know, when we meet them as babies. I think it's just such a tender time. And I know now, like, because of my birth stories,

[09:24] the value of compassionate care, and that's for sure what keeps me there. You know, it's a big part of your life.

[09:32] Michelle: Yeah. Wow. So true. And,

[09:35] you know, a lot of people, when they think of NICU, they think of just the babies. Right.

[09:42] And they don't really think about the family. And I love that you were like, the babies and the family, they're a unit.

[09:52] Jade: Right.

[09:53] Michelle: And we have to care for them as such, you know?

[09:57] Jade: Absolutely.

[09:58] Michelle: So.

[09:59] Jade: And I think even a lot of times we think about baby and mom and dads get kind of forgotten, which is something I'm trying to implement more into my practice, going through what I have gone through.

[10:12] I feel like for my husband, it was all like, take care of Jade, you know, take care of your wife.

[10:18] And, you know, in talking to some NICU dads, I have a friend whose baby had CDH, and I've talked to her and her husband a lot, and there is a lot of temptation to just be like, oh, yeah, the baby and the mom.

[10:30] But I'm really trying to open my eyes and include the whole family as a, you know, that's really who we're caring for.

[10:37] Michelle: Yeah, I love that. Again, I've talked to Adam, and his name escapes me right now on this program.

[10:49] Preemie dad. And, you know, he talked about that, too.

[10:55] And with him, his strategy was just like, I'm not gonna be pushed aside, like, I'm going to be inserting myself. And we've taken care of those families that the dad is like, no, you can't push me aside.

[11:11] And some dads are just very deer in the headlights. And, you know, they're like, I'm fine, to kind of take a backseat.

[11:18] Jade: Yes.

[11:19] Michelle: So I love that you're incorporating that into your care,

[11:22] man. To have them on our side,

[11:25] it's awesome. And you're right. They are the ones that are, like, caring for all the other people, but who cares for them? Right. And they have very specific needs.

[11:37] So one of the reasons you're here today is to talk about the loss of your son, Theo and I looked at some pregnancy loss stats and so we'll just kind of review those right now.

[11:51] This comes from the March Dime website.

[11:54] 10 to 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. And to me, that's just, like, a huge number. I don't know why. I didn't think it was that much.

[12:05] And then 80% happened before the 12th week of pregnancy, so in the first trimester.

[12:12] And so with Theo, did you lose him in the second trimester?

[12:17] Jade: Yes.

[12:17] Michelle: Okay.

[12:17] Jade: My water broke at 18 and 6, and then I delivered him at 19 and 0. Yeah.

[12:24] Michelle: Okay. Well, let's talk about Theo.

[12:28] So just kind of take me through the whole process of, you know, finding out that you're pregnant and all the things that go on with that with you personally and with your family.

[12:44] Jade: Sure.

[12:46] So my husband and I,

[12:48] when we first got married, we were, like, not in a rush to have kids, but we knew that was gonna be, you know, in the plan someday.

[12:56] And then when we started trying,

[12:58] we didn't put so much coordination and effort into it in the beginning. Just kind of like, oh, let's see what happens. And months passed, and it didn't happen, so we became more intentional, if you will.

[13:09] And it took about 10 months to get pregnant with Theo so I was just starting to have the thoughts of, like, oh, are we gonna need, like, an infertility appointment?

[13:17] All things. Like, starting to have some anxiety. And. And then I became pregnant, and we were super excited.

[13:24] Shared with my family and my husband's family.

[13:28] We, like, recorded their reactions. And Theo was the first grandchild on both sides,

[13:34] so everyone was just ecstatic, full of excitement and love for us,

[13:41] and everything was pretty normal with my pregnancy in the beginning. You know, I saw my endocrinologist because I no longer have a thyroid, so.

[13:49] Michelle: Right.

[13:50] Jade: That was the only thing in my labs.

[13:53] I'm a little more sensitive to my Synthroid and dosing and all that than the average person, apparently. But we just followed my labs closely, and there was nothing that was out of whack ever.

[14:05] And other than that, you know, around maybe 16, 17 weeks, I did feel like I had some pressure, But I called the MA one day, and she was like, well, you're pregnant.

[14:19] You know, and was that, you know, a sign or not? You know, I'll never really get to know that part. But, I mean, I sustained the pregnancy a few weeks after that.

[14:29] So, yeah, that was kind of the beginnings of it. And then what brought me to triage that morning was I felt like I had lost my mucus plug. Like, there was just a lot of.

[14:42] more mucus than normal. And, you know, a lot of people are like, okay, well, you're pregnant. You know, that's also normal. But something in my nurse brain was like, 

[14:52] I don't know if I trust this, you know, but I was 18 and 6, so they don't usually let you in triage till about 20 weeks. And so I was like, do I really go to the ER for this?

[15:02] Like, to say, like, oh, I have a lot of mucus today. Like, I don't know. But then throughout the day, I started having some cramping, and it seemed to kind of start to take a pattern and more frequency as the day progressed.

[15:18] And so I called triage. Like, because I was a NICU nurse, I was like, oh, I wonder who's there? Anyone I know? You know?

[15:25] Jade: And they were like, well, you know, we're not really supposed to see you, but

[15:29] you can probably push your way through kind of thing. So I did love that.

[15:34] Michelle: Nurses taking care of nurses, right?

[15:36] Jade: Yeah.

[15:37] Yeah. So I went to triage, and I kind of did push my way through, and I was like, don't make me go to ER, please. And it was change of shift.

[15:45] You know, I was day shift. And so then it became the night shifters. And they didn't know me as well, but they were still mindful and trying to take care of me.

[15:53] And of course, it was like the weekend and a night, so it wasn't like I could have called my OB during the day. Like, you know, all the things. They checked me out and triaged.

[16:03] They said they could see, like, some irritability on the monitor. Yeah, I was having, you know, some soft contractions,

[16:10] kind of, like, checked my urine. No UTI.

[16:13] Maybe I was a little dry. They said, like, go home, hydrate.

[16:17] Michelle: And you're working full time during this time?

[16:19] Jade: Yeah, I'm working full time. And it's Covid.

[16:22] Michelle: Yes. And it's very busy.

[16:25] Jade: It's busy. It's stressful.

[16:27] Yeah.

[16:29] So from triage,

[16:31] you know, they did call the physician, and he asked that they checked me, which. The triage nurse was a bit,

[16:39] like. She seemed a little unsettled. She's like, I'm gonna check you softly because you're, you know, you're early, but, you know, like, we kind of have to rule that out.

[16:47] So whatever. She checks me. And felt that my cervix was closed, and so they sent me home and they told me on Monday, give my OB a call and make an appointment, you know, just to follow up.

[16:58] Michelle: Right.

[16:59] Jade: So went home from triage maybe like, 10, 15 minutes. I lived in Tulare at the time, so we were about halfway home, and my water broke in the car.

[17:10] Michelle: Wow.

[17:11] Jade: Yeah.

[17:12] So at that point,

[17:14] I. I obviously knew something was really wrong,

[17:17] and I threw the seat back and put my legs up, because now I'm thinking,

[17:23] okay, like, what's gonna happen next? Now I'm starting to get really scared. And at this point, you know, I had taken care of plenty of, you know, micro preemies or early preemies and heard stories of, like, oh, I had baby in the toilet, or, you know, of incompetent cervix or cervical insufficiency.

[17:42] And at that point, I didn't actually know that it can happen that early because I think in the nature of the NICU job, we saw them at 23, 24, 25 weeks.

[17:53] And so I didn't know that there was this whole other population that belonged in that group that had 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, you know, what have you weekers.

[18:04] Michelle: Yeah, we never saw them.

[18:06] Jade: Yeah, we didn't see those. And I think a lot of times in the NICU, we're pretty used to hearing, like, G's and P's not lining up. You know, like, I've had this many pregnancies, but I have this many living children,

[18:19] and I learned a lot from that. And I always kind of pause now when I see, like, a mom's G's and P's don't line up.

[18:27] You know, I don't know a lot about earlier miscarriages because that wasn't my experience. I had a mid-trimester, second trimester,

[18:36] you know, loss with Theo. But I think everyone's experience, every woman's experience is very unique. And I know my heart always sinks when I see in the charting, you know, that they had a mid-trimester loss because,

[18:52] you know, a lot of people don't realize that that means you're admitted and you labor and deliver.

[18:57] Michelle: Yeah. Is that what happened with you?

[19:00] Jade: Yeah. So I called triage back, and I was like, I'm just letting you know my water broke. And they were like, oh, are you sure it's not the ultrasound lelly? You know, like, valid question.

[19:10] Michelle: Sure.

[19:10] Jade: But I was like, no, dude, I'm sitting in a puddle of water, and it's dripping down the chair. And they're like, okay, okay. So we, you know, run back there, and they get me up there, and they like, checked that it was amniotic fluid, verified that it was, and then I was admitted from there.

[19:28] And that's where my story's, like, a little bit atypical for incompetent cervix. And I will say that in consulting with MFM, they were a little bit hesitant to label me as that.

[19:40] Michelle: And just for the people that don't know. But MFM is Maternal-Fetal Medicine.

[19:46] Jade: Yeah. So I asked for a referral. You know, when I saw my OB after that, how. Obviously I was very shaken by this experience, and I was like, I think I would like a consult before proceeding.

[19:59] And I don't know that that would have been the standard had I not asked for it.

[20:04] Michelle: And did you think that you asked for it because of the line of work you were in? You knew about it?

[20:10] Jade: Absolutely, yeah. Because I knew how to navigate the healthcare system.

[20:13] Michelle: You knew, and you knew how to advocate for yourself.

[20:16] Jade: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, my OB was great. And she,

[20:20] she kind of had the same thing. We talked like, preterm labor versus incompetent cervix and premature rupture of membranes and rule out infection. And it was kind of, my story 

[20:32] wasn't textbook to any of those things, but she said, you know, I'm thinking cervical insufficiency.

[20:39] Michelle: Yeah.

[20:40] Jade: So back to, you know, I was admitted to the hospital and my contractions kind of stopped after that for a while.

[20:52] They said it was just kind of a wait and see from there. I didn't know it at the time, but I, you know, since looking at my records, my AFI was zero, so I had no fluid.

[21:03] Michelle: Oh, wow.

[21:04] Jade: They didn't tell me there was no fluid, just that I had lost a lot of fluid either.

[21:08] And the OB that day, he said,

[21:13] let's get through the first 24 hours. If we make it there, he's like, I'm gonna warn you, the statistics are not good. He's like, do not google them. I'm just gonna tell you they're not good.

[21:24] Michelle: And then, did you google them?

[21:26] Jade: I did not. I just trusted him. Like, they're not good. Okay. You know? Cause I was like. Which I think it's like 1%.

[21:33] Michelle: Yeah.

[21:33] Jade: You know,

[21:35] and, you know, I think incompetent cervix or like these mid-trimester are like 1 in 100, something like that.

[21:42] And, and as a nurse, I did, you know, Google and. And some of them I already knew, like, your statistics about, you know, like, you're mentioning making it past the 12th week.

[21:52] So I felt like I relaxed a lot after the 12th week.

[21:54] Michelle: Right.

[21:55] Jade: Only to be betrayed by the statistics.

[21:58] In my perspective, that's how it felt. You know, like, statistics now are not as reassuring as maybe they were once were, but from there, yeah, I was admitted and I was monitored, and they kind of, like, would monitor him every few hours or so.

[22:12] And I did what I could to, like, stay in bed, and, like, they, you know, gave me IV fluids to kind of hope, hoping that the bag could reseal and my fluid would rebuild and then we could try to get to viability kind of thing.

[22:28] Michelle: Yeah.

[22:28] Jade: Which, to be honest, sitting in the bed, I was like,

[22:31] wait, what? Like, okay, so my best case scenario is that my bag reseals and I make it to viability,

[22:38] at which point I'm likely readmitted, put on antibiotics, given steroids, and been, like, in a bed until I deliver.

[22:45] Michelle: Yes. Yeah.

[22:46] Jade: So that was very overwhelming. And this is, like, the point where this would continue to be a pattern throughout my healing journey is like, the one day at a time. And I had the nurse,

[22:57] She told me, you know, make it to midnight. Midnight to midnight is our goal now, you know? So I made it to midnight, and I went from 18 and 6 to 19 and 0.

[23:07] And I was like, okay, I'm 19 weeks today. You know, like, making it a little closer to viability.

[23:13] But unfortunately, by the morning, you know,  I had no fluid, and he became bradycardic, and eventually he passed. Yeah.

[23:22] Michelle: I'm so sorry.

[23:24] Jade: Yeah. It's a lot.

[23:25] Michelle: I know. Thank you so much for telling that story. I know how hard it is.

[23:30] Jade: Yeah.

[23:31] Michelle: I see your strength, and I'm just always amazed at how people can be so strong with such tough circumstances.

[23:45] Jade: Appreciate that.

[23:48] Michelle: Theo has passed away. And talk about the days kind of immediately following his passing and what you went through.

[24:01] Jade: Yeah,

[24:03] I think I'll start, like, still of that day,

[24:08] because there's some things that stick with me in my head about that day. So then, like, I kind of was laboring very slowly at that point, like, still off and on, contractions kind of thing.

[24:20] And then they induced me once he had passed,

[24:24] and I delivered him maybe, like, 12 hours later that night, about 24 hours from when I first came in to triage.

[24:33] You know, Dr. went over with my husband, and I like, what it was gonna be like. And even as a NICU nurse, I still had questions. I was like, one of my questions, honestly was like, 

[24:43] Is he gonna come out whole? Like, how big Is he? You know, and he was like, yeah, likely he will. And I was like, how bad is this gonna hurt?

[24:50] Like, do I get an epidural at this point? I'm thinking, I don't want to suffer anymore. Like, I don't want to be in pain. And also emotional suffering, you know, and they don't do an epidural at that age, but they do meds.

[25:03] So he was like, take as much or as little as you want kind of thing. And, you know, I went somewhere in between. To have, like, pain control, not make myself suffer more, but not be on another planet.

[25:14] Michelle: Yes.

[25:15] Jade: Because I knew that I was already looking forward,

[25:19] you know, there was gonna be lots of steps to grieving this, and I didn't wanna be so out of it that.

[25:25] That inhibited the grieving process.

[25:27] Michelle: Absolutely.

[25:29] Jade: And one of the things I distinctly remember was, Dr. going over you know, there's a small risk, like retained placenta at this age, especially where you would have to, you know, maybe I would have to operate and, you know, just that that's a risk factor kind of thing.

[25:46] Michelle: Sure.

[25:47] Jade: And it took me a long time to admit this or be able to say it out loud. And it was actually a friend. She had a miscarriage, and months later, and she told me, like, Jade, I wanted to die.

[25:59] And it wasn't until she was free enough to tell me that, that I kind of gave myself permission to, like, admit to myself. Like, when he talked about the chances of, like, postpartum hemorrhage, like, I had this dark thought of, like, I kind of hope I exsanguinate on the gurney

[26:16] and I could just, like, be with my baby,

[26:20] because just the loss and the grief and the hurt was so,

[26:25] so strong. That's, like, the only way I could describe it is, like, I just wanted to be with him. And it was like, bury me, too.

[26:36] Jade: Yeah. And I say this, you know, it's really uncomfortable. It's kind of uncomfortable for me. But the reason I'm, like, find that bravery and, like, hone in on that is because I think sometimes we're just looked at as, like, G's and P's don't line up, you know?

[26:52] And it's like, every woman has a unique story of, like,

[26:56] how the loss went. And,

[26:59] you know, since having this, you know, experiencing the loss of Theo, I have gotten into the loss community, which encompasses so many different losses. And, you know, the

[27:12] mommies who have miscarriages earlier, they talk about the trauma. The trauma of, like, flushing baby down the toilet. And, you know, so these are the things that, when someone says, I had a miscarriage,

[27:25] these are things that are behind it that I wish was talked about more and that I wish healthcare providers would be mindful of that. I wish families and friends of, you know, loved ones who have lost babies, buried babies, cremated babies, you know,

[27:44] that they would just be aware of the large emotions behind that.

[27:50] Michelle: Yes. I wish the same wish. And, you know, that's why we're doing this, because you have a story.

[27:59] There's a story behind your loss.

[28:02] And so many times in our society, we just gloss over it. We don't even acknowledge that that was a child.

[28:13] Jade: Right. You know, it's like the pregnancy loss. Yes.

[28:16] Michelle: Even. Even our words.

[28:18] Jade: Right.

[28:19] Michelle:  And people would argue, you say, I lost a child.

[28:22] Jade: Yeah.

[28:23] Michelle: You know, and they say, oh, my gosh, like, how old was he? Or she? And you're like,

[28:29] he was 18 weeks. You know, and so how do you.

[28:35] Yeah, it's like, when are these things gonna change? You know, I think just bringing attention to it, like, no, this was a child. This was a person. This was a human.

[28:48] This was my child.

[28:50] Jade: Right.

[28:50] Michelle: This was a grandchild.

[28:52] Jade: Right.

[28:53] Michelle: You know, this was much anticipated. Yeah, absolutely. So the more that we can get the word out, I think it'll become more normal to acknowledge and not just gloss over that you had a miscarriage or you suffered pregnancy loss.

[29:11] Right.

[29:12] And I don't know if that's just our society, but we just.

[29:16] It's like, we're not good with death.

[29:19] Jade: No, we're not. It makes people very uncomfy. And I get it. I mean, I've been there before. I experienced this. So I try to have a lot of empathy with the silly things people say, like, to put it nicely.

[29:33] But I know that I did. I wasn't always, you know, privy to this grief experience and. And then reflection that comes with that. But, yeah, in our society, there's a lot of tabooness still to miscarriage,

[29:49] pregnancy, infant, baby loss.

[29:51] Yeah. A lot of work to be done.

[29:54] Michelle: One thing that I didn't have on our outline here is guilt.

[30:00] Jade: Yes.

[30:01] Michelle: So talk about guilt, Jade, and how that kind of entered the picture.

[30:05] Jade: Yeah. So,

[30:07] you know, I talked about, like, this is. I can't let that part go where I said earlier about, like, having some pressure. That is, like, part of the guilt is like, gosh, maybe I should have bulldozed my way into the office that day.

[30:21] You know,

[30:23] the part where it's like my body failed me that it's not like my husband's or my family's or anything. Like, I was the one who was carrying the child and not being.

[30:34] And you know, even like my OB that day, he said to me, this isn't about your baby. Like, your baby is perfect.

[30:43] Which he meant for good.

[30:46] And in my brokenness, I received as, oh, my baby's perfect. So I'm not, you know, and so there's a lot of power in the words we say, and we can't always get it right.

[30:59] And he can't read how I'm gonna take it versus the next woman, you know, but there were little things along the way that, you know, I. I really,

[31:08] after the dust settled, had to, like, reconcile with myself and learn to love myself and my body.

[31:16] Because even like going back to a 16 year old Jade with cancer, I felt like my body failed me then. And so it felt like, oh, here we go again, like, something ain't right with me, you know, like, what's my problem?

[31:29] You know, I think that's a lot where the guilt comes into play is you're the one carrying the child and it feels like a responsibility, you know, but the truth of the matter is, obviously it was not intentional on my part.

[31:42] It was a tragedy, and it just kind of is what it is. Some of us are born with things that just didn't quite go right, you know, to release myself of that guilt and to know that I didn't, it wasn't my fault, you know.

[31:58] Michelle: How did you navigate through all that? Did you see a therapist?

[32:02] Jade: I did, yeah. So luckily I had started therapy a bit before I lost Theo. And it was actually my endocrinologist who recommended I go to. So it had been so many years, you know, I was 16, I was maybe 29, 30 when I lost you.

[32:19] So it had. All these years had passed and I, my endocrinologist retired and I got a new one.

[32:26] And on his intake with me, he was like, did you ever go to therapy for your cancer?

[32:32] Michelle: Is this the one that we both share?

[32:34] Jade: Yes. Yes.

[32:35] Michelle: Oh, my God, you guys, we have the best endocrinologist.

[32:38] Jade: Yes. I'm like hesitating because I don't to gatekeep him.

[32:42] Michelle: But I put it on blast. He's so, so awesome.

[32:48] Jade: Yes.

[32:48] Michelle: And not just because he's a great clinician. Like, he is such a warm, compassionate person. He sees you holistically. He's unlike any other.

[33:02] Jade: He's like woke if you will. He asked me, did you ever go to therapy when you had cancer? And I was like, no, I'm fine. And I was like, it was so many years ago.

[33:13] Like, I'm good. And he's like, ah, yeah, sis. Like, I encourage my cancer patients to go to therapy. And I'm like, I'm not a cancer patient anymore. Like, was very belittling of it.

[33:26] And he goes, were you told that you had, like, you won the cancer lottery? And I was like, yeah.

[33:34] So this is a thing with thyroid cancer.

[33:36] Michelle: Because it was thyroid cancer?

[33:37] Jade: Yes. Because thyroid cancer has, like, the best survivability.

[33:41] Michelle: Yeah.

[33:41] Jade: Yes. You're. I think it's a tactic maybe to lessen the blow of, like, you have the big C, but you won the cancer lottery kind of thing.

[33:51] And he honestly never heard that.

[33:54] It's terrible. I mean, I get it. As healthcare professionals, sometimes we say and do things to, like, cope in our own way, but, yeah, not. Not. Not the greatest phrase.

[34:05] And he was the first one to bring that up and validate that. So by that time, I had seen, like, three different endocrinologists in my thyroid journey. And he was like, immediately, I'm sorry that that's how that was handled.

[34:20] I'm sorry that you were told that he was like, that's very invalidating of your journey and your healing. And I was, like, speechless. Yeah. And it wasn't until then that I realized I had, like, a lot of unresolved healing to do.

[34:34] So he, like, refers me to a psychiatrist, and he's like, please, just go. And I was like, okay. I had kind of been thinking about it. There was, like, some things in my life that probably needed to be dealt with, and.

[34:45] But this was like, what solidified? Like, okay, I'll go.

[34:49] So it's like, I see a psychiatrist, and he's like, I think you would benefit from, like, talk therapy or whatever. So I find a therapist and establish care with her.

[34:58] We talked about my cancer journey. And, you know, the most key part I remember about that is she was like, so tell me about, you know, this experience. You're 16.

[35:10] You know, like, what was it like? And so I began to regurgitate this prefabricated story that I've given over and over again. And she was like, okay, that's interesting. Like your medical very short, like, smiley, perky story.

[35:26] And she's like, but I asked, like, how was it and how was it emotionally? And how were you and how are you? And I. I was speechless. Again, I had nothing to say.

[35:37] She was like, what was it like emotionally? And I literally said, I don't know.

[35:43] I had no words. And thus began began, you know, my journey of unpacking that.

[35:48] Michelle: Yeah. Wow.

[35:51] Jade: So lucky for me, Dr. Chahal asked me, you know. You know, I think it would be beneficial for you to go.

[35:59] Michelle: That's amazing. Yeah.

[36:00] Jade: So I had an established therapist, and she was able to help me a lot with the grief of losing Theo.

[36:09] Michelle: Yeah.

[36:10] And, you know, so we, in the course of our jobs, obviously, we talk to moms all the time and moms of babies that are born with anomalies that are born prematurely.

[36:27] And so I've heard that overriding theme so many times from so many moms. The guilt of. Was it something that I did, something that I didn't do? Was it this aspirin that I took one time because I had a raging headache.

[36:44] Jade: Right. Hyperanalyze.

[36:45] Michelle: Was it because my husband and I had sex last night? You know what? They want an answer.

[36:53] Jade: Right.

[36:53] Michelle: And I think that's so normal to want to find an answer, but sometimes there are no answers.

[37:02] Jade: Absolutely. It just happens, and it's just hard and it's just painful.

[37:07] Michelle: Yes.

[37:08] Jade: Yeah.

[37:09] Michelle: And that's just the hardest thing to get through for sure. What did grief do to you physically?

[37:17] Jade: Physically?

[37:19] Oh, my gosh. I was so tired all the time.

[37:23] And, you know, in the thick of.

[37:27] I mean. Yeah, I had a lot of grief early on.

[37:34] It looked like struggling to get out of bed. I would wake up in the morning and look to the left of me, and I would just imagine that space with the bassinet, because that's where, like, I had intended to put the bassinet.

[37:50] And I was like, I'm supposed to be waking up to a baby in a bassinet right here. And it was like, I just want to go back to sleep because I'm not in pain when I'm sleeping.

[38:00] And it was just agony.

[38:02] It felt weighty. Everything I did felt weighty. And then again later, I would have come to have postpartum depression, like, late after Noah,

[38:12] and gosh, I can't tell you how many times I was like, I'm tired, I'm tired. I'm so tired. I don't care.

[38:21] I just. Like, I'm kind of a go getter. So it was like I. Yeah.

[38:25] Michelle: So unlike you.

[38:27] Jade: I think it was hard for people to identify because I was still very functional, like, still very high functioning. Yep. Still cooking dinner. The house is being run, cleaning, doing all the things, working full-time working plus overtime.

[38:47] And yeah, I was too good at hiding it, perhaps,

[38:51] but mostly fatigue for me physically, maybe some headaches, occasionally a migraine kind of thing. Yeah.

[39:00] Michelle: The physical characteristics of grief are just so. I think, you know, just the slowness that you feel. You feel like you're just walking through, like, quicksand. Everything it takes effort.

[39:19] Yeah.

[39:20] Jade: Brain fog was a huge one. Like, just forget what I'm saying mid- sentence.

[39:23] Michelle: Yeah.

[39:24] Jade: Things like that just trail off.

[39:28] Michelle: And you know, that's a big characteristic of grief. And anybody that suffered a loss in any way can totally identify with that.

[39:39] Jade: Yes.

[39:40] Michelle: And you mentioned some of the mental, about the brain fog just trailing off in the middle of a thought or a sentence.

[39:49] What was helpful to you during that time of grieving? What did things that people did for you or things that people said? What was helpful during that time?

[40:01] Jade: My best friend had also started a journey in therapy around the time that I did. And so by this time, we now have, like,

[40:10] a little bit of knowledge, if you will, questions to ask each other to check in. And she was really good about that, about having, like, some accountability and like, okay, like, I see you're doing X, Y and Z, but like, how are you really feeling?

[40:25] That kind of thing was super helpful. People bring need meals because I just like low energy. Do I want to cook today? Do I care about what's for dinner?

[40:34] Keeping routines like, you know, moms who are have postpartum depression will talk about, like, I didn't even want to shower or whatever. Like, I just made it a rule, like, every day I am going to take a shower and somebody is going to watch the baby or the baby's going to be napping and we are going to reinitiate date nights and things like that on my face also,

[40:59] like,

[41:00] going to church,

[41:02] being surrounded by people I knew were praying for me.

[41:07] And we decided to have a funeral for Theo, which I think was really helpful in the grieving process for us and for the family. I don't think that's something that's super commonly done, you know, his gestation.

[41:24] I think we were like, offered. We were offered cremation for sure, but I don't think it was even really said that you could, you know, decide to have a funeral.

[41:33] But my husband right away was like, I don't really want him cremated. Like, I want to bury him. And I was like, oh,

[41:40] okay.

[41:41] I didn't feel so strongly about that, but because he did. I decided, like, I should go with that, you know, and I was fine with it. Even in the moment, it seemed like a lot, but I think I was thinking, like, from other people's perspective, like,

[41:56] will I seem dramatic if I have a funeral for like.

[42:00] Michelle: Yeah. Worrying what other people are thinking?

[42:02] Jade: Right. Yeah. I just was like, okay, yeah. That feels like the level of grief that I have. Appropriate, you know?

[42:08] Michelle: Yeah.

[42:08] Jade: And I think that was helpful to have, like, we have a place,

[42:13] they call it Babyland. It's really terrible. Babyland in the cemetery in Tulare is where Theo is buried. And so we have a place where we could go. And you know, I know in my heart that I carry him everywhere I go, but it is nice to have a place.

[42:31] And I know it has been very helpful for my mom and my mother in law. They decorated his grave site for every season and I kind of gave it to them.

[42:40] It felt really overwhelming to me. Like, I just felt like no decoration would ever be enough for the grief that I had for Christmas and all of the holidays and things.

[42:52] And they, they were always asking about it and I was like, okay, you guys just do it. And I love that now, like, whenever I go, I get to see what they brought and.

[43:03] Michelle: And it brings them so much joy to remember their grandson.

[43:07] Jade: Yes. 

[43:08] Michelle: And.

[43:09] Yeah. Babyland. So I interviewed Angela Gonzalez,

[43:16] and she's a colleague of ours, a nurse,

[43:20] and she talks about her son Joaquin being in Babyland. And Yeah,

[43:28] you know, it's something that's goes so against. Again, we don't like to talk about death. We don't like to think of babies, you know, being buried in the cemetery. But the truth is,

[43:43] that's what's happening.

[43:45] And I think the sooner you can come to terms with that, you know, the better you're gonna be. And I love that you, you know that you let the grandmas do that and gave that over to them.

[43:59] Jade: Yeah.

[44:00] Michelle: And now you get to enjoy it from going to see Theo and seeing what they've done. And they get the joy of doing that for Theo and for you and for your husband.

[44:10] And so that. That has to be very healing.

[44:15] Jade: Definitely.

[44:16] Michelle: Well, let's talk about your husband. So he's the other part to this story because he's Theo's dad. Right.

[44:24] And so I got another statistic, and this was a large study done from PubMed. And I'll put this in the show notes for anybody that wants to check it out.

[44:35] But this was almost 7,800 pregnancies.

[44:40] And what they found was that 82% ended in live births, 16% in miscarriage, and 2% in stillbirth. And so the women who experience miscarriages or stillbirths had a significantly greater hazard of their relationship ending compared with women whose pregnancies ended in live births.

[45:06] So talk to me about how losing Theo affected your relationship with your husband.

[45:12] Jade: Sure. I must have, somewhere along the line, read some sort of statistic like this, because I do remember, like, in the delivery room, I looked at my husband, and I was like, you know, statistically, this is terrible for our marriage.

[45:25] Michelle: In the delivery room? 

[45:27] Jade: Yes. And he was like, Jade,

[45:29] like, okay, you know, like, why do you know that? Why are you quoting that? Like, in this moment, you know? But, you know, that being said, I think I had a sense of preparedness.

[45:42] I knew that what was coming was gonna be hard. And our relationships suffered immensely in the months that came.

[45:51] I do remember early on, my grief looked so much different than his, and I had a difficult time understanding that. Like, why am I feeling and looking like a mess?

[46:02] And you kind of look okay? And he totally had his moments and all that. I don't want to say, like, he wasn't grieving at all, but I think he also, at that point, he hadn't started therapy, and he had a lot to learn about grieving, too.

[46:15] Neither of us were raised in a super emotionally intelligent environment. Perhaps I think our parents all did the best that they can, and they did better, perhaps, than their parents, which is maybe the goal of every parent, to be a launching board, you know?

[46:32] So I say that with grace over our parents. Not really, like, placing blame on them, but it just kind of was. We had a lot to learn about emotional intelligence and grief.

[46:45] And I do remember my therapist telling me, like, you, whatever this looks like, you both have to have a mutual respect for each other's grief and for the fact that it looks differently if you cannot come to an understanding.

[47:00] She's like, that is a common theme I hear with couples who have experienced loss or death,

[47:06] is that, you know, well, they see it this way, and I see it this way. And how come they can't understand, you know, if you can't find some common ground,

[47:16] it will be to your demise, you know?

[47:18] Michelle: Yeah.

[47:19] Jade: And then moving forward,

[47:22] you know, we had talks,

[47:25] you know, when things would come up.

[47:28] I don't know. Various things in life bring grief up as, you know, like, you could be totally fine having a good day and then something happens and all of a sudden you're crying.

[47:39] Michelle: I call that a hijacking.

[47:40] Jade: Yes.

[47:41] Michelle: You get hijacked by a memory or a smell or somebody saying something. And yeah, those are hard.

[47:50] Jade: So I think we learned a little bit. And then as I went to therapy more and later he would go to therapy,

[47:57] I think that helped us immensely. Like, communication.

[48:02] We had a lot to learn about communication. We got married young. I was like 23. I mean, youngish. I was 23.

[48:10] Michelle: That's pretty young.

[48:11] Jade: It's pretty young. I don't know, people just get married way before that. I know, that's why I say that. But, you know, I was pretty young and I'd say, like,

[48:19] you don't really, like, live life being like, oh, I gotta be ready for it if tragedy strikes, you know. So there was little things in our marriage that needed improvement, but we were like, overall doing fine, you know, so I'm not like in crisis mode until like crisis occurs.

[48:35] And now it's like these little things are becoming bigger because we've gone through such a traumatic event, such a, like, unspoken of event that like, there's not a lot of guidance, there's not a lot of navigation.

[48:48] So, yeah, my husband would be fine with me sharing. Like, we almost got divorced when Noah was close to a year old. It all kind of came to a head.

[48:58] It's like we were hanging on for so long and then so many things over time, like left unsaid. You know, my biggest look back is somebody along the lines told us to out-love each other.

[49:13] Like, make it your goal to, like, love your spouse well, like, if they're loving you well, then you love them even better.

[49:19] And I think that is something that brought a lot of healing to our relationship. And we're in a great spot now and I'm very grateful. And I think God is a God of restoration, if I could say anything about that.

[49:34] And yeah, if you let Him and you get the right help and the right tribe to back you up and have all of those prayers. You know, I'm a big proponent of faith in God and I think he did a great work in us and we're in a place now that I,

[49:54] And you know, there's this concept people say, like, everything happens for a reason that I used to kind of believe, and now I very much don't believe.

[50:02] Michelle: That, but it's like a freaking knife to the heart.

[50:06] Jade: So cringe.

[50:07] Michelle: Yeah.

[50:07] Jade: I'm like, tell me about how my dead baby happened for a reason. Please explain to me. I dare you. Like, at this point. Yeah.

[50:16] You know, so I don't agree with that train of thought, but there is something close to that that's like, you know, this tragedy happened, and it just happened. Like, I tell myself I live on Earth, and I can't have, like, heaven expectations.

[50:31] Like, this is just. This is earth. Bad things happen, and they just are. And. And so Theo's death just is. And I have to learn to cope with that.

[50:43] But in that, I think there could be maybe purpose or good things that come from that, if you will.

[50:55] Michelle: So there's one thing you said about the, like, out-love your spouse. And I love that because I read and I don't remember what book it was from, but it was.

[51:06] The author was talking about, like, love is a verb.

[51:09] Jade: Yes.

[51:10] Michelle: Like, you don't always have loving feelings towards your spouse,

[51:16] but kind of like a fake it till you make it. It's like, do those things that are loving things,

[51:25] you know, and. And then the love will come.

[51:28] Jade: Right.

[51:29] Michelle: And I love that. And it sounds like that's, you know, you guys just did it, and you had that love there. It was almost fractured, you know, by the loss of your son.

[51:41] It was definitely bruised and beat up.

[51:46] And,

[51:47] man,

[51:48] I think only a nurse would, you know,

[51:53] state a statistic like that in the delivery room as she's experiencing this great loss.

[52:00] That's where I have to say, like, you know, tell me you're a nurse without telling me you're a nurse.

[52:05] Jade: Yes.

[52:07] Michelle: That's amazing. Okay, so let's talk about some of the things that people say. And, you know, they might be, well, meaning. I don't think people set out to, you know, be bastards and, you know, be like, I'm gonna, you know, 

[52:24] inflict pain upon a wounded woman today.

[52:27] Michelle: Exactly.

[52:28] But maybe they don't always think, because the other thing about death is, you know, we don't know how to respond to it.

[52:37] And in, you know, my listeners know my story that I lost my husband.

[52:43] Jade: Right.

[52:44] Michelle: And,

[52:45] you know, some of the things that people said to me might resonate with you.

[52:51] One of the things, you know, that they said was, aren't you glad that it was so quick.

[52:58] Jade: Shut up.

[52:59] Michelle: That you didn't have to see him get cancer and waste away and die. And I'm like, hmm.

[53:07] So coming home from work, expecting to see my husband, finding him on the floor, trying to do CPR on him and losing him in our home.

[53:19] Jade: Sounds great.

[53:20] Michelle: Sign me the fuck up.

[53:23] Jade: Right. You know what I mean? That's how I want to do it. That's great. Yeah.

[53:26] Michelle: Right?

[53:27] So that was, you know that that kind of stuff is particularly like a dagger. And I remember those people. And in my mind I said, you're dead to me.

[53:39] Jade: Yeah.

[53:40] Michelle: You're completely dead to me because you have no insight into what is going on here.

[53:49] So did you have any moments like that of anything that, you know, people that were well meaning, family or friends that just didn't understand?

[53:57] Jade: Yes.

[53:58] Michelle: So talk about some of those things.

[54:00] Jade: So one of them. So there's a community of people who we refer to as, like, we are pregnant after loss. So, PAL. Community pregnancy after loss. So I didn't super enjoy my pregnancy with Noah.

[54:18] Like, I know people won't. Like, that makes people uncomfy.

[54:21] Michelle: But that's my truth.

[54:23] Jade: That is my truth. Yes. I actually, for a time in my grief, like, found pleasure in making people uncomfortable because I was like, you know what? Who's more uncomfortable than you?

[54:32] Michelle: Me.

[54:32] Jade: Who's actively living the grief.

[54:34] Michelle: Yeah.

[54:34] Jade: So, like, if you're gonna make me uncomfortable, I'm gonna make you more.

[54:37] Michelle: Right back at you 10 times.

[54:39] Jade: And hopefully you'll learn from it. But my husband, on the other hand, was much more patient. Like, Jade, these people are well-meaning. They love you. And I'm like, no, fuck that.

[54:47] Michelle: It's like the people that crucified Jesus when Jesus said, father, they know not what they do.

[54:53] Jade: Exactly.

[54:53] Michelle: You know, and, and you kind of have attitude like, just, lord, forgive them.

[54:59] Jade: You do. Because otherwise you'll go on this emotional roller coaster every time somebody says something ignorant. There was a sweet woman at church. Love her. But she would say, my God, I just loved being pregnant so much.

[55:14] Don't you just love it? Aren't you just glistening? And I'm like, I throw up every day. My first baby died. I'm scared this one's gonna die. I kind of,

[55:24] it's kind of uncomfy.

[55:26] No, I don't, I can't agree with your assessment.

[55:30] Michelle: Yeah. Happy for you.

[55:32] Jade: Yes.

[55:33] Michelle: Like, don't project your experience onto me.

[55:37] Jade: Yes. Yeah. There was people that said, at least, you know, you can get pregnant. Okay, cool.

[55:44] Michelle: You're young.

[55:45] Jade: Yes.

[55:45] Michelle: You can have another baby.

[55:47] Jade: Plenty of time. Yeah. That sort of thing. This, like, notion that your baby was too precious for Earth. God. And I'm like, okay, okay. All right. I'm gonna buckle in. Zip it.

[56:01] Because I don't have anything nice to say to you right now.

[56:05] Michelle: You have an angel in Heaven, an angel in heaven.

[56:08] Jade: And then, like, my brain, like, I.

[56:10] Michelle: Just want my angel here on earth. Right.

[56:12] Jade: And also, like, I'm very. Can be very logical. And I'm like, that's not how angels work. Like, if you read the Bible. That's not how angels work. Exactly. 

[56:20] I'm an angel. He was a human baby. Okay. And my husband is always like, oh, my God. Jay.

[56:26] Michelle: The realist, the realest. Jade.

[56:28] Jade: Yes. Yes. There's a lot of things people say and, like, you say, I think they're all well-meaning, but we really need to evaluate as a society the things we say.

[56:37] And I think people say it when they're uncomfortable, so they want to, like, bring you some comfort. So it's like, oh, my God, what are these phrases that I've heard that I'm just gonna, like, kind of regurgitate?

[56:48] And they just. They're not helpful.

[56:52] Michelle: No.

[56:52] Jade: What can be helpful? Like, even if you respond to me in silence. I respected that.

[56:57] Michelle: I was just gonna say, just be quiet.

[56:59] Jade: Yeah.

[56:59] Michelle: Even if you just put your hand on my shoulder.

[57:02] Jade: Yeah.

[57:02] Michelle: And don't say anything.

[57:04] Jade: Absolutely. Or say, oh, my God, I'm sorry.

[57:06] Michelle: How about those two most powerful words? I'm sorry.

[57:10] Jade: And a lot of people would also say, I can't imagine the pain you're going through. Which I hear that, and I've been guilty of saying that too. But in the thick of my grief, I wanted to be grabbed them and be like, try to imagine it.

[57:27] Michelle: Right, right.

[57:28] Jade: You know, so maybe the phrase is more like, I can only imagine the depth of your grief.

[57:35] Michelle: Yeah.

[57:35] Jade: I'm sure that what I can imagine it's even worse than that.

[57:39] Michelle: Yeah.

[57:39] Jade: And I'm here for you.

[57:40] Michelle: Yeah.

[57:43] Jade: About a year after we lost Theo,

[57:46] we went to the cemetery to,

[57:49] like, celebrate his birthday. And on the way home, we got in a car accident. We got t-boned.

[57:55] This part of the story, like, a lot of people tell me, like, oh, I didn't know this. So it's like his one year anniversary, by the way. Like, I had two children in one year.

[58:04] So, Theo was born in January. Noah came at 34 weeks in December.

[58:12] So I have my premature post-NICU, maybe like two week old. I think she was two weeks.

[58:18] Michelle: Yeah.

[58:18] Jade: Two week old neonate in the car seat that is borrowed from my friend because hers hadn't come yet because it's Covid and everything's backed up and everyone's sick and it's just terrible.

[58:31] Then I had to tell my friend, like, oh, we got in a car accident. I totaled your car seat. You know, because they're not good after crisis.

[58:38] It was just like the compounding things.

[58:40] Michelle: On the recall list.

[58:41] Jade: Yeah, I was like, the compounding things, but, God, you know.

[58:46] Yeah. To be in a car accident after all that. I don't really remember where I was going with that.

[58:51] Michelle: Were you injured?

[58:53] Jade: I wasn't super injured. We think that my husband had a concussion. He hit his head on the window and his knee hurt a lot. My incision kind of hurt. But,

[59:05] you know, I was two weeks post op, so they did watch that closely. But they said, you know, my internal sutures were intact or I would be in, like, excruciating pain kind of thing.

[59:16] But also it was Covid. So, like, we tried to be seen at, like, three different places.

[59:20] Michelle: I remember.

[59:22] Jade: Oh, my God. And my husband and I are like, the only one who feed the baby at this point. So you're like, oh, my God, I'm pumping the whole nine yards.

[59:30] Yeah, I'm pumping because she doesn't latch and I'm crazy.

[59:35] Like, one of the things I kind of coped with, one of the things I can control was pumping. So I, like, put myself into overdrive.

[59:43] Michelle: Yeah.

[59:44] Jade: And so I was like, every three hours, I must pump.

[59:47] Michelle: Because talking so many women like that in the. In the NICU that they're militant about.

[59:53] Jade: Yes. I think it.

[59:54] Michelle: Where you have to say, it's okay to take a break.

[59:58] Jade: Yeah.

[59:59] Michelle: You know, but it's just something that they have to do. It's.

[01:00:03] Jade: I think it's a control thing because you feel such a loss of control over your body by having.

[01:00:10] Losing a baby or by having a premature baby, you know, which. Having a premature baby was like salt in the wound at this point.

[01:00:17] Michelle: Yeah.

[01:00:18] Jade: But,

[01:00:19] yeah, it was like something that I can control. And so that. I mean, at the height of my pumping, I produced, like, 64 ounces of milk in 24 hours. So I was like, oh, my gosh.

[01:00:31] I'm kind of getting really skinny.

[01:00:37] Michelle: 6000 calories a day.

[01:00:38] Jade: So I decided to count one day. And I was like, oh, my God, 64 ounces. That's not fine. Like, there's no way I'm drinking 64 ounces of water plus what I need.

[01:00:47] Michelle: Right.

[01:00:48] Jade: Yeah. So that's kind of an interesting.

[01:00:50] Michelle: But again, you have the insight.

[01:00:52] Jade: Yeah.

[01:00:52] Michelle: You know, you have the insight into the need to control this. I need my body to do something it was designed to do and almost perfectly.

[01:01:04] Jade: Yes.

[01:01:05] Michelle: So that I can be okay.

[01:01:07] Jade: Yeah.

[01:01:08] Michelle: And then you have the insight to go, hmm, maybe I'm going a little bit overboard on this. So I mean, those things have saved you so many times, your insight into your own behavior, and.

[01:01:23] Yeah, that's amazing. Okay, let's talk about going back to work, because we work.

[01:01:30] You do. I don't anymore.

[01:01:32] But the nature of our work, as Admit nurses, Charge nurses, is we have to attend high risk deliveries and caesarean sections. And so I know this was a challenge for you because we've talked about it prior, but talk about some of the challenges of being in the hospital where you lost Theo.

[01:01:56] Jade: Yes.

[01:01:56] Michelle: Working with some of the same people, seeing them every day, going to the same room for delivery where you lost Theo. So talk about some of those challenges.

[01:02:09] Jade: Yeah, immensely challenging.

[01:02:13] I think it was a friend who recommended, you know, his thought was, why don't you go to the hospital the day before? This is a friend who has experienced a lot of grief.

[01:02:25] So he was like, why don't you go to the hospital the day before and kind of like, do the tour.

[01:02:30] Michelle: The day before that you go back to work?

[01:02:31] Jade: I returned to work. Yes.

[01:02:32] Michelle: Okay.

[01:02:33] Jade: The day before, I returned to work. So I went and just to see, like, what would happen,

[01:02:38] and I went to room 16 where he was born, and I was just, like, frozen. It was like I felt so much emotion.

[01:02:49] I wanted to cry, but no tears were happening. And I just, like, stood there for a moment, and I was like, okay. And like, there was a couple co workers that had let know that I was gonna do this, and so they kind of, like, hung out outside the room,

[01:03:03] like, in. Yeah, we'll come in if you want, or we'll stay there if you want, you know, And.

[01:03:08] And so I did that. And then I walked down the hall. Like, that would go up to mother baby. For some reason, the. The. Where the door opens was so triggering to me.

[01:03:20] It was like I rounded the corner so I had Theo, like, wrapped up on my chest. And I had watched so many moms round that corner with their living babies.

[01:03:33] And so that just, like, hit me like a ton of bricks rounding that corner. And even now, to this day, you know, it's been. It's been about four years now.

[01:03:42] And then, like, I don't know, something triggers in my brain when I ran around that corner, and I'm like, there in the wheelchair for a minute again, you know? And then I went upstairs to mom baby and, you know, went to the room where we had him for a little bit.

[01:04:00] Before saying our goodbyes and each of those places. Still to this day, I definitely have the thoughts,

[01:04:09] as the years have progressed and the healing has progressed, they've lessened in intensity. But it was a big topic with my therapist. It was like, okay, we can teach you skills to cope with this,

[01:04:23] or you can decide that it's too much, and you can, you know, there's plenty of other things you can do as a nurse, like, and that was really hard for me to hear because I had to, like, give myself permission because I'm such a doer.

[01:04:38] Go getter that, like, that would have seemed like failure to me to not be able to, like, overcome.

[01:04:44] Michelle: Sure.

[01:04:45] Jade: So we kind of had to address that. Like, this isn't failure. This is like, if I choose that this is too much, then that's just my reality and that's okay. And I could go do something else and be great at it too.

[01:04:56] Michelle: Yeah.

[01:04:57] Jade: But ultimately, with time and discussion, I. I knew that I was still very passionate about the nicu. And I felt like it was part of my calling to, like, have this perspective and now be able to love on families in a different way.

[01:05:11] And I felt like that would bring meaning to Theo's short life, which, on that note, like, we chose the name Theo maybe like a week or two before he was born.

[01:05:22] And. And the conversation went like, you know, Fern was like, yeah, I think we should still name him Theo. And I was like, well, do we give him our good name?

[01:05:30] Like, that's my good name. And he was like, yes, we give him the good name. And I was just, like, sad that I wouldn't be able to say, Theo, come here.

[01:05:39] Or, like, knock it off, Theo, you know, so. But Theo's name means God's gift.

[01:05:44] And so I. I almost, like, dared God in that moment, like, yeah, I'm gonna name him Theo. Like, I dare you to make his life a gift.

[01:05:52] Like, this is how grief goes, you know, And I could see how he has. But in those early moments and even still, you know, I told a few co-workers, like, you know, I could be a little bit triggered when I go to this room or buy certain things.

[01:06:11] And, like, some of them know to this day, like, I've had, you know, a nurse before be like, that's Theo's room. You want me to go for you? Like, when I'm high risk delivery.

[01:06:20] And I'll be like, yeah, please do. Thank you so much. Like, you don't know how much that means to me. Or like, this is your boy's. Room, like, I got you, like, just those little things, like, made it survivable.

[01:06:34] Michelle: That makes me more emotional, man, to work with people and to be so closely bonded with your tribe of people that they're willing to try to take your pain away and cover you.

[01:06:53] And that's, you know, that. I'll say that's, like, one of the greatest things that I miss about, you know, being part of that tribe. And,

[01:07:03] I mean, that's a beautiful thing.

[01:07:05] Jade: Absolutely. Yeah.

[01:07:07] Michelle: That's a beautiful thing.

[01:07:09] Jade: Yeah. And I could remember, you know, at the funeral, I did invite a few coworkers, and I was very choicey with, like, people who I thought would likely be in my life forever or if they weren't, I knew that they were, like, a super safe, vulnerable place that I can,

[01:07:23] you know. And I do remember a moment at the funeral also, like, Fernando and I standing, like, saying our goodbyes to Theo. And I looked back and I saw them, like, all in a row, and I was like.

[01:07:35] I started bawling like, these are my people, and they're gonna be with me, like, at work, too. And, you know, maybe I can survive this. And, you know, that was a big part of healing.

[01:07:47] And grief was like,

[01:07:49] this concept of joy and sorrow can cohabitate so we don't have to, like, be a slave to our sorrow.

[01:07:57] And. And there's a temptation to, like, let your sorrow be, like, so thick and overwhelming that, like, you'll see joy and turn it away, you know, but learning that they can coexist and I can be, like, suffering and have these moments of joy.

[01:08:12] And I remember at the funeral when we were having lunch, I sat at a table with my friends and co workers, and I do not remember, for the love of God, what we were laughing at, but we were laughing, and I had this moment where I was like, oh,

[01:08:25] my God, this is so wrong. I'm laughing at my baby's funeral. And then I, like, kind of reframed it to be like, okay, like, maybe I can get through this.

[01:08:36] And I think, like, your tribe has so much power. There's so much, you know, and. And back to the. You know, what they can do. Like, there was a time.

[01:08:47] Oh, that's what. That's what I was saying. What? The accident. After the accident, I was, like, frozen. Like, I would, like. I was joking that it was, like, sundowning, like the little old people do every day at, like, 4pm I would start crying like, I had.

[01:09:01] And of no particular reason, there's tears running down my face. And one day I called my best friend Vanessia, and I was like, can you just come sit on the couch with me?

[01:09:10] And literally, like, we sat on the couch in silence because there was no words at this point, like, the compounding grief that had happened. And she just sat there with me and to like, she just sat in the uncomfy with me.

[01:09:22] And there was another time too, I would like to bring up that was like,

[01:09:27] she told me I missed Theo today.

[01:09:31] Like, months later, she's like, I just miss him. Like, I know I didn't know him. I didn't hold him, I didn't get to meet him, but we had all these plans for him, and I miss him.

[01:09:43] And I felt like that was maybe like a little bit risky,

[01:09:46] but it just did wonders for my heart for people to speak his name, for people to,

[01:09:54] like, love him and miss him and long for him.

[01:09:58] Michelle: It's really music to your soul. You know, I will say that from losing Ken.

[01:10:04] Jade: Yeah.

[01:10:05] Michelle: When people would say his name or remember something that he did or one of his quirks or whatever was just like.

[01:10:13] Jade: It was just food for your soul.

[01:10:16] Michelle: And that's so beautiful. And that's so Vanessia.

[01:10:21] To say something like that and to be that person that doesn't have to fill that silence with something that can just be in that silence.

[01:10:33] Jade: I dare you listeners to just feel the silence.

[01:10:36] Michelle: Sometimes, just like just being your mouth and it's so hard,

[01:10:42] we want to fill it.

[01:10:44] Well, you know, I believe in divine intervention. And you know when. When I asked you to be my guest.

[01:10:55] Jade: Yes.

[01:10:56] Michelle: That day, it just blew me away because I woke up in the middle of the night, as I often do, around 2 or 3 in the morning.

[01:11:04] And you were immediately on my mind.

[01:11:08] And I was like, wow. Like, why am I thinking of Jade?

[01:11:13] And, you know, I was like, did I have a dream about her? Like, no.

[01:11:17] And I was like, she just has this story and it needs to get out. It needs to be told.

[01:11:24] It's so profound, and I know it could help so many people.

[01:11:29] And so the next morning, I texted you, and I was like, Jade, I woke up with you on my mind.

[01:11:37] Will you tell your story?

[01:11:39] And you said, yes, which I'm so thankful. And then you said,

[01:11:43] and it just gave me chills. You said, did you know today is the anniversary of Theo's death?

[01:11:52] And I was like, oh, my gosh. And that's when it's like, there's nothing else that it could be.

[01:11:59] Jade: No, no, it just.

[01:12:00] Michelle: It is divine intervention.

[01:12:02] Jade: Absolutely. And I will say, like, I worked the day before that. And so I got called Immediately to room 16, the first call of the day, and I was like, oh, my God, the universe hates me.

[01:12:14] Like, what? Okay, fine. And then I caught myself, because now that I'm years out, you can catch yourself and have these thoughts. And I thought, well, maybe instead of like, the universe hates me, maybe I get to go remember my boy today in that place he was born.

[01:12:32] And then. But I was kind of, like, half believing it. I'm, like, trying to convince myself of this.

[01:12:39] Michelle: So then fake it till you make it.

[01:12:41] Jade: Fake it till I make it. And so then in the. You know, in the next morning when I'm home with my husband and you text me and I said, babe, look at this message.

[01:12:50] I was like, she doesn't know his birthday. Right? And he's like, she probably does. Like, what are the chances? Like, you post about it occasionally.

[01:12:58] Jade: I was like, who memorizes that, though? I was like. Like, I don't talk to Michelle every day. Like, you know, she's super sweet and, you know, would remember things, but there's no way she remembers.

[01:13:07] I was like, I'm gonna ask her. And then when you said that, I had no idea.

[01:13:10] Michelle: I said. I think I said, oh, my God, I have chills right now because it just hit me. And I was like, wow, how did I think of her in the middle of the night?

[01:13:19] My first thought, and then it's Theo's, you know, birthday, and I'm just like, that's.

[01:13:26] Jade: Yeah, I. You know, in this chapter of my life, I. here's a name for God that I've heard before. El Roy, which is the God who sees.

[01:13:39] And I felt like I met, like, the God who sees in that moment and, like, how perfect that he can use, you know, and. And give you that thought in the middle of the night.

[01:13:51] There's not. There's just no way, like, I can explain that away.

[01:13:54] Michelle: Me either.

[01:13:55] Jade: You know, for me, it was immediately a yes, because I felt like, you know, you even said, like, oh, this is divine intervention. And I. I felt the same.

[01:14:05] Michelle: Like, and I felt tentative at reaching out to you because I know how much you grieve because grief doesn't really end, it changes.

[01:14:18] And of, like,

[01:14:20] part of that is like, oh, my God, I don't want to upset her.

[01:14:24] Jade: Yeah.

[01:14:24] Michelle: You know, I think she's in a good place right now, and I don't want to bring all this back, and. And then it just got pushed down, and it was like, no, just reach out to her.

[01:14:35] Yeah, Just reach out to her.

[01:14:36] Jade: Yeah. And I think that's a lesson,

[01:14:39] you know, for a lot of people. I think you might feel similarly is like, sometimes people say they were afraid to bring it up, but the truth is, like, I think about Theo every day.

[01:14:48] The same way I'm sure you think about Ken every day. Like, you're not going to disturb me.

[01:14:52] Michelle: Yes, exactly. And it's just. And if you talk to me about a funny thing that he told you or a memory or. And you say his name,

[01:15:03] it just brings me a lot of joy. It doesn't hurt me because everyone is afraid that if I bring up your son, you're gonna get hurt again. It's like, I've been hurt.

[01:15:16] Jade: We've been there. Do that, doing that, living it.

[01:15:19] Michelle: No, it's like, no. Remembering my son and talking about him, that's gonna bring me joy.

[01:15:25] Jade: What we have.

[01:15:27] Michelle: Wow. Okay. How do you think people can learn from your loss, from your grief, or what's your hope for people to learn?

[01:15:41] Jade: I think my hope is that.

[01:15:45] Well, for one, if you have symptoms or, you know, worries, pressure,

[01:15:53] excessive mucus, things like that in your early second trimester,

[01:15:59] take it to your doctor and take it seriously, because there is the population of us, one in a hundred who can have a late loss like that,

[01:16:09] just getting that knowledge out there.

[01:16:12] Also a big proponent of, like, sitting in the uncomfy with, like. Grief is universal in a lot of ways.

[01:16:23] Everybody grieves a little differently, but if you've lost someone, you can relate a lot to other people's. You know, you lost your husband, I lost my son. But there are many topics where, you know, we can very much meet each other where we're at.

[01:16:40] Michelle: Yeah, they cross over.

[01:16:41] Jade: Yeah.

[01:16:43] And, you know,

[01:16:45] bringing advocacy and, like, lack of fear to the conversation of, like, having lost a pregnancy, lost a baby, that, you know, just knowing that when you get that positive pregnancy test, for most or many women,

[01:17:01] all of the hopes and dreams, you know, begin from then. And aside from grieving Theo himself, a lot of the process is grieving.

[01:17:12] The I wish the hopes, the dreams that come with it, and those can be lifelong.

[01:17:19] Michelle: Yeah. Wow.

[01:17:21] Jade: Yeah.

[01:17:22] Michelle: That's great advice from somebody who's been there and experienced it.

[01:17:27] Jade: Yeah.

[01:17:27] Michelle: That's the best advice.

[01:17:30] Well, I know there's going to be people that are going to want to reach out to you and learn more,

[01:17:41] maybe get resources because I know that you have a lot of those.

[01:17:44] Jade: Yeah.

[01:17:45] Michelle: So where can they find you?

[01:17:47] Jade: I'll give you my email address. And then also you can reach out to me on social media. Please don't be offended, like, if I don't grant a friend request, but please don't be a friend of sending me a message, because my Instagram is just like my personal one.

[01:18:00] It's not like an advocacy. It's not like a nursing anything. But if anyone had any questions, comments, concerns, anything they wanted to talk about, if you're a mom who's lost and you need someone to relate to, I'd be happy to be that point of contact.

[01:18:15] But just, yeah, send me a message. 

[01:18:17] Michelle: Perfect. Okay, I'm gonna put those in the show notes. And what about. Do you know any people that might wanna be a guest on my podcast?

[01:18:26] Jade: I was thinking about this. I mean, I mentioned my friends who had the baby with congenital diaphragmatic hernia.

[01:18:34] I think the mom or the dad would be great because they have a very different NICU perspective.

[01:18:40] Michelle: Okay.

[01:18:40] Jade: Or I think Dr. Chahal, if we could get him on there, I think that would be amazing.

[01:18:45] Michelle: I would love him.

[01:18:46] Jade: Yeah. Okay.

[01:18:47] Michelle: That's two doctors that I have to contact now. That would be fun, though.

[01:18:53] I interviewed Dr. Borge a few weeks ago. He's an OBGYN that we used to work with. And so he.

[01:19:01] He recommended Andy Phan.

[01:19:03] Jade: Oh, I heard him say that. Yeah.

[01:19:04] Michelle: Yeah. So I've been remiss in reaching out to Dr. Phan.

[01:19:08] Jade: Yeah.

[01:19:09] Michelle: But I will. And I will reach out. I think Dr. Chahal would be awesome.

[01:19:13] Jade: Yes.

[01:19:13] Michelle: As well as your other suggestion. And maybe both of them from a couple standpoints.

[01:19:18] Jade: Oh, yeah.

[01:19:18] Michelle: Yeah, that'd be very cool.

[01:19:20] Well, Jade, this has been just an amazing experience for me to hear your story all over again. And of course, when you are going through it, you know, I heard little bits and pieces and never got to hear the entirety.

[01:19:38] And of course, there's been some space in between for a lot of healing to take place, and I certainly see that, and I am joyful over that.

[01:19:50] You're the same steady,

[01:19:55] loving, compassionate,

[01:19:57] funny,

[01:19:59] spirited person that I worked with back in the day, and that definitely hasn't changed.

[01:20:06] I just think you have a deeper understanding of the human condition.

[01:20:10] Jade: Yeah.

[01:20:10] Michelle: And I'm so thankful that you said yes to sharing your story today.

[01:20:15] Jade: I'm so grateful to be able to share his story.

[01:20:18] Michelle: So we've really dug into a lot of really heavy stuff today. So we kind of owe it to ourselves to have five minutes of fun.

[01:20:29] Jade: Would you say the part I'm most anxious about?

[01:20:32] Michelle: The most anxious.

[01:20:33] Jade: Oh, God. Fun.

[01:20:35] Michelle: After all of that, she's anxious about the five minute snippet. Okay, well, we're gonna play the five minute snippet and it's just five minutes of fun. And you're gonna do great because you just.

[01:20:50] You're that kind of person.

[01:20:52] So we'll just start.

[01:21:33] Convince me to live in your hometown.

[01:21:36] Jade: Oh, okay. Well, you know, we are two hours from the beach, two hours from the mountains. The prices of homes aren't so bad.

[01:21:49] We have a lot of good local eateries and it's just a great base location.

[01:21:55] Michelle: I think so too. Favorite beverage at Starbucks?

[01:22:00] Jade: The iced shaken espresso. Yeah. The brown sugar one. That guy.

[01:22:05] Michelle: Oh, wow.

[01:22:06] Jade: Okay.

[01:22:07] Michelle: I remember all you gals walking in with  Starbucks. 

[01:22:11] Jade: Or the 2 or 3 o'clock. Oh, it's coffee time.

[01:22:15] Michelle: Yeah, that's right. Okay, so, okay, this is a new thing for the five minute snippet. So you're the first one. So this is a theme of five. So it's five words and you have five seconds to describe or define the word.

[01:22:32] Jade: Oh, gosh.

[01:22:33] Michelle: Okay, and so one word. I'll give you five seconds and the next word. Okay.

[01:22:38] Jade: Okay.

[01:22:39] Michelle: Ready?

[01:22:40] Jade: Yeah. First word.

[01:22:41] Michelle: Blade.

[01:22:42] Jade: Blade. Sharp. Shiny. Pokey.

[01:22:46] Michelle: Lodge.

[01:22:47] Jade: Lodge. A place to stay. Cabin.

[01:22:50] Michelle: Microwave.

[01:22:52] Jade: Zap it quickly. Heat.

[01:22:55] Michelle: Guacamole.

[01:22:56] Jade: Oh. Avocados. Mexican margaritas.

[01:23:00] Michelle: Rookie.

[01:23:01] Jade: Rookie. New newbie. Newbie learning.

[01:23:05] Michelle: Oh, I love it. Isn't that fun?

[01:23:07] Jade: That was fun. I like that.

[01:23:08] Michelle: It's fun. It's like fast.

[01:23:09] Jade: Okay.

[01:23:10] Michelle: Would you rather eat a worm or a cockroach?

[01:23:13] Jade: Oh, God. I think a worm. I don't know about the crunchiness of a cockroach. Yeah, the texture, like, are the little particles. I don't know about that.

[01:23:22] Michelle: I think a worm, you could just swallow it.

[01:23:23] Jade: You could just swallow it. I'm gonna, not even a need to chew it down the hatch.

[01:23:27] Michelle: Okay. Did you have a favorite childhood game?

[01:23:31] Jade: I liked Chutes and Ladders.

[01:23:33] Michelle: Oh, yeah.

[01:23:34] Jade: A little board game.

[01:23:35] Michelle: Yeah.

[01:23:35] Jade: A little family fun.

[01:23:36] Michelle: Oh, I played that with Jess. Yeah. Shoots and Ladders. Now, what about Noah's favorite game? Does she have a favorite game?

[01:23:44] Jade: Hide and seek.

[01:23:46] Michelle: Hide and seek.

[01:23:47] Jade: That's my life right now.

[01:23:48] Michelle: Yeah, but she's 3.

[01:23:50] Jade: She's 3.

[01:23:50] Michelle: Okay, so my grandkids are 10 and 7, and every time we get together, they're still into hide and seek. I'm like, when do they grow out of it?

[01:24:01] Jade: I don't know.

[01:24:02] Michelle: It's just a bigger version.

[01:24:03] Jade: Yeah, yeah.

[01:24:04] Michelle: They go outside and hide around the house and trees and the neighbors and stuff.

[01:24:08] Okay, we're in your house, and there's a picture of your favorite travel destination somewhere in your house.

[01:24:16] Where is it? And who is in the picture?

[01:24:19] Jade: That would be my husband and I in Rome when we took our nice little Italy trip, Europe trip, before having kids.

[01:24:28] Michelle: Yeah, I remember seeing on your social media.

[01:24:30] Jade: Yes.

[01:24:31] Michelle: Oh, my gosh, how wonderful. Okay, speaking of your husband, a typical date night for you and your husband. What would that look like?

[01:24:40] Jade: Oh, we're going somewhere local,

[01:24:42] and we're gonna, like, get the best things on the menus. We're total foodies. So, like, this is. Yeah, this is primetime date night. So it's eating. Eating. Yeah. Like, we're gonna get.

[01:24:53] We're gonna go to the local spot with the freshest,

[01:24:56] most delicious food and probably a cocktail.

[01:25:00] Michelle: Yeah, that sounds awesome. Okay, last question. If I weren't a nurse, I'd be a.

[01:25:10] Jade: Maybe a baker. Oh, like, have a little bakery.

[01:25:14] Michelle: Okay.

[01:25:15] Jade: Some pastries. Jade, Cool vibe.

[01:25:19] Michelle: Jade's juicy...

[01:25:23] Jade: Something.

[01:25:26] Michelle: That's awesome.

[01:25:27] Jade: See?

[01:25:27] Michelle: You did great.

[01:25:28] Jade: Oh, that was more fun than I thought.

[01:25:30] Michelle: Yes, it is. Thank you so much, Jade.

[01:25:33] Jade: Thank you.

[01:25:34] Michelle: Have a great rest. Yeah, have a great rest of your day, whatever you're doing.

[01:25:37] Jade: You, too, Michelle. Good to see you.