CEO of Health Nuts Media, Tim Jones

Today, I’m joined by Tim Jones, the CEO of Health Nuts Media and a true innovator in the world of health education. With over 30 years of experience, Tim has transformed how patients—especially children—learn about their health.

He’s an Emmy Award-winning producer who blends evidence-based research with engaging storytelling, using animation and interactive tools to make medical information accessible, understandable, and even fun. His work is used in major healthcare institutions across the country, improving health literacy and outcomes for countless patients and families.

Tim’s passion lies in pediatric care, where his creative approach is making a real difference in how kids understand and engage with their health. I’m excited for you to hear his journey, his insights, and the future of health communication.

I want to thank Tim for showing us how storytelling, animation, and innovation can transform patient education—especially for kids. His work reminds us that when health information is clear, engaging, and accessible, patients and families are empowered to take control of their health.

In the five-minute snippet: The Sandlot, Star Wars, The Lion King…need I go on?

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Transcript

[00:00] Michelle: Today, I'm joined by Tim Jones, the CEO of Health Nuts Media and a true innovator in the world of health education.

[00:08] With over 30 years of experience,

[00:10] Tim has transformed how patients,

[00:13] especially children,

[00:14] learn about their health.

[00:16] He's an Emmy Award-winning producer who blends evidence-based research with engaging storytelling,

[00:22] using animation and interactive tools to make medical information accessible,

[00:28] understandable, and even fun.

[00:31] I mean, the tagline there at Health Nuts Media is "seriously fun."

[00:37] His work is used in major healthcare institutions across the country,

[00:41] improving health literacy and outcomes for countless patients and families.

[00:46] Tim's passion lies in pediatric care, where his creative approach is making a real difference in how kids understand and engage with their health.

[00:56] I'm excited for you to hear his journey, his insights, and the future of health communication.

[01:02] I want to thank Tim for showing us how storytelling,

[01:06] animation and innovation can transform patient education,

[01:11] especially for kids.

[01:13] His work reminds us that when health information is clear,

[01:17] engaging and accessible,

[01:19] patients and families are empowered to take control of their health.

[01:24] In the five-minute snippet.

[01:26] The Sandlot,

[01:28] Star Wars, the Lion King.

[01:30] Need I go on?

[01:48] Well, good morning, Tim. Welcome to the program.

[01:51] Tim: Well, good morning. Thanks for having me.

[01:54] Michelle: Yes, it's my pleasure. I think we met on LinkedIn.

[01:58] Tim: I think so. That's right. That's right.

[02:01] Michelle: I said what, who is this guy that owns this company called Health Nuts Media? First of all, I love the name.

[02:09] Tim: Oh, thank you.

[02:11] Michelle: Yeah. And then when I realized that you, a lot of what you do is educate children and their families about health, I was totally drawn in.

[02:21] Longtime pediatric nurse, longtime NICU nurse. So I'm excited to talk.

[02:27] Tim: Great. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. So.

[02:30] Michelle: Well, you've been in health education for more than 30 years, Tim. What drew you into this field?

[02:38] Tim: Well, I would say the health education is probably more like 20 years and Health Nuts Media is 15 years old right now. So my origin story is I started off in entertainment, so got my creative writing degree, grew up here in Ohio,

[02:56] got a creative writing degree,

[02:58] moved to Hollywood to see what I, what I could do out there and ended up in animation. I was at Warner Brothers and they were starting up an animation division.

[03:07] So I went over there and,

[03:08] worked on some feature films.

[03:11] Really enjoyed that, was then sort of the dot com era where everything was going online and really interested in that technology.

[03:20] And then by the early 2000s was sort of running a digital agency in Hollywood, mostly for entertainment. So did MickeyMouse.com and Winniethepoo.com and did some stuff for Sesame Workshop and adult brands and everything as well.

[03:35] And then I think it was 2004, Starlight Children's foundation came to us and they said, you know, we're having a really hard time talking to teenagers about cancer and chemotherapy.

[03:48] And I thought, wow, yeah, that must be a really difficult thing to do. And they explained that there's lots of print material, a lot of, you know, great information, but teens weren't really interacting with that as, as much as they would hope.

[04:05] Starlight said, well, we, we think reality-style television is popular with that demographic. So they'd shot some video,

[04:12] but teens seeing other teens going through a cancer journey, a chemotherapy journey,

[04:17] losing their hair, being very sick maybe was too much reality there. And they thought maybe animation might be a great way to present the education and the information without, you know,

[04:32] putting kids off. So even though I'd never done anything like that before, it was such a challenge. And I love the mission of what,

[04:40] what Starlight Children does.

[04:42] So that, I guess to answer your question is sort of

[04:46] what brought me into it? And then lots of things happened after that that really opened my eyes to, to what is possible.

[04:55] Michelle: What a fantastic story, Tim. Thank you so much. 

[04:59] I'm a big nerd. I really love hearing how people got into the niche that they're in and how could you not step up to a project like kids with cancer?

[05:12] Like, that's amazing.

[05:14] Tim: So it was such a great challenge. But then it was sort of hearing back from the impact that that had. That really was the big light bulb moment. We'd done work for Starlight for a little while, did a lot of different projects with them.

[05:31] And at one point they said, hey, we're having our annual banquet in Beverly Hills.

[05:36] Steven Spielberg's our chairman emeritus, although he wasn't there that night, but Carrie Fisher was. She was their national spokeswoman that year. So it was a great honor to go and just be in attendance there.

[05:49] And at one point a young girl came up on stage and said, you know, when I was 12, they told me I had cancer and I just gave up. And I thought my life was over and I thought I was going to die.

[06:01] And I was really sad and really depressed. I didn't know what I was going to do.

[06:06] And then somebody told me about these videos and I went and I watched them and I saw that other kids had gone through what I'm going through. And it just gave me the strength and the courage to go through my chemo.

[06:17] And I did, and now I'm in remission. And I just feel like those videos saved my life. And for me, that was that cartoon light bulb moment, right? 

[06:28] That big light bulb that goes off over your head and you go, yeah. Gosh. Wow. I love storytelling. I love animation. I love all of that. And even after having done the project,

[06:41] you know, and I was very proud of it, but had never heard the testimony like that from an individual to say, wow, this really, really can change lives. So that really changed my perspective about what is possible.

[06:57] Michelle: Yeah, there is nothing like that first person feedback. Right, right.

[07:03] Michelle: That's why we do it, really.

[07:05] You know, it. It just keeps us going to get that feedback.

[07:09] Well, let's talk about your background in business and storytelling.

[07:15] So how did that lead you into healthcare? You kind of explained that a little bit and then ultimately founding Health Nuts Media.

[07:24] Tim: So again, I was running this agency, doing a lot of work,

[07:28] and we started to do more.

[07:31] So we did Starlight. There were some other things that we had done. So one of my colleagues was a researcher, and he was doing research in literacy and health literacy,

[07:44] specifically for underserved populations. And as you know,

[07:49] health literacy is just one of those needles that never seems to move. Right. 

[07:54] Michelle: Yep.

[07:54] Tim: You know, that's what, you know, whatever they say, 12% of US adults have proficient health literacy, and 88% are below proficiency in health literacy. And we try lots of different things.

[08:09] We write, you know, can we write it more simply? Can we write at an eighth grade level, a sixth grade level, a fifth grade level, a third grade level?

[08:16] a certain point, he's like, I don't know if that's the,

[08:20] you know, the only path, you know, and he said, I see my kids that sit down and watch cartoons and learn, you know,

[08:28] from that. I wonder if we could use animation as an educational intervention for underserved populations. And this was specifically 

[08:38] For diabetic populations. So that was the first sort of academic research project that I started to work on. And I'm not an academic, but it's just fascinating to understand all of those different barriers.

[08:52] So literacy, you know, being one, all the cultural, you know, barriers, all the engagement barriers.

[08:58] And then within that,

[09:00] even if we made a video,

[09:02] if,

[09:03] say,

[09:04] you don't like my face or the, the way I cut my hair or the clothes I'm wearing or something,

[09:13] you can consciously or unconsciously decide to believe or not believe what I'm saying in a fraction of a second. Right.

[09:22] And that's strangely to me still, people don't bring those same kinds of biases to animated characters. So a lot of times in health communications, trust and believability is one of the biggest things that we need to sort of get over and, and I would say more in 2025 than it was in 2005 or when we were doing this.

[09:46] So just looking at all those different factors and saying, wow, okay, so if you can start with a blank slate and present some information that is better. And then lots of psychology,

[09:59] neuroscience, about how people learn, why people learn, and just that's really fascinating to me as a storyteller to learn that.

[10:11] You know, I think Jonathan Haidt said it best. "The human brain" I always paraphrase him, but "The human brain is a story processor, not a data processor." So this idea that we can't just give people the facts and expect them to learn them, memorize them, act upon them and act logically,

[10:29] that's not really how we're,

[10:32] how we're wired. And lots of background, you know, to that. But putting information in a story really opens up the brain and the plasticity of the brain to have a, you know, an inciting incident, you know, conflict,

[10:50] a story or resolution, something that people engage with emotionally.

[10:55] All of a sudden that opens up brain pathways to not only see and hear and receive that information, but actually to imprint that into their,

[11:05] know, into their brains. And short term memory, long term retention can be improved by some of these, some of these techniques, which I certainly didn't know about, you know, 20 years ago.

[11:16] But I just think that these are all,

[11:19] you know, techniques that are very useful.

[11:22] Advertising does it every day, right. I mean, they really understand social media, understand human psychology and how to hook us and hook our kids on social media and drive, you know,

[11:35] brain chemistry in, in one way or another.

[11:38] And that is for, you know, better or worse, you know, that that's the way the world works. But I just believe that understanding that and using it for, you know, positive uses can, you know, can be beneficial.

[11:54] And when we get back to that health literacy conversation, this idea that, well, people, they just don't care,

[12:01] right? And I don't believe that. I don't think that that's true. I think people care a lot. They,

[12:07] want to be healthy, they want to get through this journey, get back, you know, get their health back, 

[12:15] get back to life as normal, so to speak.

[12:19] And so this idea that they just don't care, they don't listen, I don't believe that first of all.

[12:26] And I think when I was first starting, health literacy was really just defined as a personal thing. Right. So people either have health literacy or they don't.

[12:37] I think we've expanded that. Well, that conversation has been expanded. So organizations have an institutional obligation 

[12:46] to be health literate as well and help the patients they serve acquire the information, you know, acquire the health literacy and the health literacy skills that they need to navigate the system and follow instructions and then make healthy choices to, you know, to be healthier.

[13:07] so I think all of that is interesting and the techniques that we can use with storytelling, with animation, with a lot of the things that I've learned over, you know, over the last 20 years,

[13:20] can be very effective to try to move the needle.

[13:24] Michelle: Yeah, so there's a lot of science behind it. Exactly.

[13:28] And one of the things you said,

[13:31] it got me thinking.

[13:34] So sometimes when our patients are seeing videos or other graphics and they don't see themselves represented there,

[13:43] you're right. They just turn it off and,

[13:47] Exactly, it may be conscious, it may be unconscious.

[13:51] Do you think that the format of animation in that it's "not quote, unquote" real?

[14:00] Do you think that can help people absorb the information better?

[14:07] Tim: I do. And I think representation,

[14:10] you know, there's a couple of things. So of course, you know, kids want to see kids, adults, you know,

[14:15] you want to maybe identify yourself with someone on that screen. And so I think at a lot of levels, age, gender, socioeconomic background, race, all of those things definitely play,

[14:30] a role there. So that's why we, you know, started, 15 years ago. I was shocked that not many people at all were even talking directly to kids in the hospital.

[14:45] They were talking to the parents. Of course, they're legally responsible,

[14:50] but no one was or very, very few folks. And not, not much in, in video or animation at all.

[14:57] Trying to help kids understand. So I think kids,

[15:02] even just seeing other kids going through something is helpful.

[15:07] I also think that animation broadens that lens because we can identify with the heroes or the characters that we see on the screen, even if they don't necessarily look like us.

[15:21] We can aspire to be like Spiderman or be like a superhero or be, even if they don't physically have those kinds of characteristics that, like, oh, he looks like me.

[15:35] This idea that, oh, he understands or she understands what I'm going through, understands my journey. And so I think in a lot of ways,

[15:46] animation,

[15:47] we can use the Big Bad Wolf or, you know, the Three Little Pigs or, you know, something like that. And kids can identify. Not that, hey, I'm also a wolf, but I know what that character is going through.

[16:00] I know what that feels like. So.

[16:04] So, yeah, I do think there is a lot of that.

[16:07] And then even we've done a lot of work with the VA, and so that was also part of,

[16:13] you know, make sure that not only the staff, but the patients and the caregivers have a wide, you know, variety of ages,

[16:21] gender, and socioeconomic backgrounds, because we do want to be representative. And I think you're right. People can tune out when they say, this was just made for someone else.

[16:34] This was not meant for me.

[16:38] So it doesn't matter how good the information is. Beyond that, if they tune out or don't watch or don't read or don't interact in some way with that information,

[16:50] It really does no good.

[16:52] Michelle: Yeah. Do you think part of the

[16:55] The pull with kids and animation is familiarity?

[17:00] So, you know, I'm 61 years old, and I grew up, 

[17:06] in the late 60s, early 70s,

[17:10] you know, every Saturday morning watching Schoolhouse Rock and Fractured Fairy Tales and, you know, all those really cool shows.

[17:19] Tim: Right.

[17:20] Michelle: And then when you get sick and you're presented with this format of animation, it seems very familiar. Do you think that's part of the picture?

[17:32] Tim: I do. I think there's something that can be comforting, you know, about that. We also talk a lot about putting people at ease. So the use of humor and comedy, you know, start off with a joke, you know, but because a healthcare journey is scary and frightening, and when you're so afraid or anxious about something,

[17:53] It's hard to pay attention or to learn anything. So I think,

[17:58] you know, the best doctors and nurses, like, they have great bedside manners. They can tell a joke. They can put kids at ease,

[18:04] they can understand,

[18:07] you know, they'll ask questions and get to know you. And I think part of this animation can do that.

[18:14] But you're right.

[18:15] We've grown up watching animation, and really, you look at any given year, the top movies, the top, you know, TV Shows,

[18:25] not only for kids but for, you know, for all ages really is, you know, so animation worldwide and in the US so there's so much possible,

[18:35] you know, with that. So it can,

[18:38] we can tell a joke in animation that we couldn't do otherwise. We can be silly, we can have a prat fall, 

[18:46] we can have different characters. We can do a lot of things so not only those conscious and unconscious, you know, biases that we might bring to those characters, but all sorts of things that, that you can do in a clinical setting to, you know, put that patient at ease,

[19:04] to help them understand.

[19:05] So some are, you know, visual learners, so they want to see as well here. So we can go right inside the body and show what, you know, where the pancreas is or what the, you know, what things are and,

[19:19] do it in a simplified way. Because a lot of times we don't need,

[19:24] you know, photorealism. You know, a lot of times we're trying to explain, you know, concepts, why, you know, how, you know, how insulin gets into the. Or, you know, how insulin helps, you know, glucose get into a cell.

[19:37] And, you know,

[19:39] stuff like that can be very,

[19:44] very illustrative.

[19:48] Is that the right word? You know, we can use graphics and animation to help simplify a concept and get people to, you know, to, to understand that in lots of different ways.

[19:59] So, but yeah, I think,

[20:01] animation does a good job in a lot of different areas.

[20:08] Michelle: Well, you won an Emmy for your work. So was that, was that for a certain project and what impact did it have on your career?

[20:18] Tim: So, yeah, we won an Emmy. This was early 2000s. So this was at a time where people were going online.

[20:29] You really couldn't stream full video,

[20:33] you know, the bandwidth. A lot of things, you know, weren't quite there.

[20:38] But there were animation and animation techniques. These files were much, much smaller. And so you could,

[20:45] create video and stream it and, and tell stories and,

[20:50] and do this online in ways that you really couldn't with other forms of video.

[20:57] And I was running this digital agency and one of our clients was ESPN and they, so they were obviously interested in. And they, they had tv, they had radio, they had lots of other channels that they were working on, but online was something that they were very interested in.

[21:15] And so they had a morning radio show, Mike and Mike in the Morning.

[21:20] It was their number one radio show. And they did a daily show. They were really funny,

[21:25] had a big following,

[21:27] and so they wanted us to take some of their best bits from their radio show and turn those into little animated, you know, cartoons and run those online. So we did that for,

[21:39] I think, four years for, you know, for ESPN and nominated twice,  once for the work that we did with them. So,

[21:48] Michelle: that's so cool.

[21:50] Tim: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

[21:52] I got to go to New York and attend this ceremony. I just, I couldn't believe when we won that night and it was quite an honor.

[22:02] Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun.

[22:04] Michelle: Wow, that's fantastic. Did you get to give an acceptance speech?

[22:07] Tim: No, no. So the, I think, you know,

[22:11] as sometimes happens, the ESPN executive who probably didn't know who I was or, you know,

[22:18] didn't know much about the show, like, got went up and, you know,  accepted the deal.

[22:23] Michelle: Sure.

[22:24] Tim: Oh, but, oh my gosh, how fun. But  I did get my little trophy, so that's cool. On my desk here.

[22:32] Michelle: So what do you think makes children unique learners when it comes to health topics in particular?

[22:40] Tim: I think curiosity is really the key.

[22:45] And if you have kid, well, you know, as a nurse, you know,

[22:50] my own kid, like, they just ask so many questions, right?

[22:54] They just,

[22:56] they are naturally curious, really. And I think that's really the driver. So the problem becomes this disconnect when they're so naturally curious and then we just give them a lecture, we give them, you know,

[23:11] a bullet point list or,

[23:14] you know, jargon they can't really understand.

[23:17] They're like, okay,

[23:19] you lost me, right? So,

[23:21] I think they're very naturally curious about their bodies, about themselves, about their health, about the world, about, you know, anything.

[23:31] And I've also, and you've probably experienced this, those special teachers that you've run across in your life that introduced you to a subject you didn't even know you were curious about, right?

[23:43] And so they do something or, you know, spark that little interest in you. Like,

[23:49] I've never even heard of that. I didn't even know that was a thing. And now I'm so curious and I want to go and, you know, I want to learn about that.

[23:57] So I think there's,

[23:59] Kids are obviously, I think,

[24:02] interested in their own bodies and,

[24:04] that at a certain point we think we're invincible. And you know, so some of that may not be top of mind the kinds of things 

[24:16] that you want to teach them, especially if they're having a health journey. So I think part of that is helping to put that into a framework. Really getting back to your other question.

[24:25] If you don't see yourself,

[24:27] you know, on the screen, but I think looking at that umbrella, if you don't understand the what's in it for me, how does this affect me? Right? How,

[24:39] why do I need to know this? How is this important to me? And I think great educators first understand, like, well,

[24:47] what is important to you? What is it that you, you know, oh, I want to, I want to be a soccer player when I grow up. I want to do like, okay, so, you know, sometimes it is about sort of putting it in that language or that context or understanding a little bit about what makes them,

[25:02] what they're really curious about and linking these,

[25:05] ideas that foster that information.

[25:10] But I think honestly, kids,

[25:13] and you see this once they latch onto something that they're really interested in, I am just amazed how much, you know, they can absorb and know and, oh, they're not good about, you know, math or whatever.

[25:25] Like, he knows every statistic, every sports ever, you know, like, you can't tell me he doesn't, you know, he's not good at math. He just doesn't understand that what he's doing is math.

[25:34] Right. When he, yes. When he talks about these things.

[25:37] Michelle: So that's so true.

[25:39] And especially what you said about, you know, a teacher bringing out something in you that you really might not have known that you were curious about or that you even liked that.

[25:51] And I will say that was my freshman English teacher.

[25:57] He had us all reading Shakespeare.

[26:00] And as a 15 year old, I had never encountered Shakespeare before and I was totally fascinated by it and I absolutely loved it. And to this day, I'm still a Shakespeare lover.

[26:15] So those things can have a lifelong impact.

[26:17] Tim: They really can. Right? And yeah, I mean, you've, and likewise, you've probably had somebody like, oh, this is the most boring even subjects you love. Like, I love this subject.

[26:28] Boy, they just,

[26:29] drained all the fun out of it. And I think that's our, you know, our tagline is seriously fun. Because clearly we're talking about health and talking to kids in the hospital.

[26:42] This is serious business, right? And it very much is a very serious thing.

[26:48] But I think fun is sometimes shunned. Like, oh, there's no room at all for this. It has to all be serious, which I think is self defeating.

[26:59] And I think at any age, we all want a little fun.

[27:05] And I'm sure your Shakespeare teacher, that's probably, you know,

[27:11] and Shakespeare was a great comedian. And,

[27:13] you know, once you start to understand the jokes that he told and the scenarios that he set up. So I'd be curious to hear maybe, you know, how your teacher brought you into that.

[27:24] But it was probably. He or she made it fun.

[27:28] Michelle: He made it fun.

[27:29] Tim: Made it fun. Right. And relatable. And so I think that's kind of a missing piece of education where it's just always so serious. And I get it, it is serious business.

[27:40] But we don't have to squeeze all of the fun out of it, or I think we lose our audience.

[27:48] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm all for fun.

[27:54] I'm a big fan. One of the things, you know, across my 36 years,

[27:59] We would have videos that we would put on for kids and their parents,

[28:04] and a lot of them had to do with, like, going home or,

[28:08] Some of them, we didn't have a big library, but some of them were about maybe going to surgery because we had a lot of kids that had, like, appendectomies.

[28:19] And I think one of the worst things that nurses and other healthcare providers can do is to say, okay,

[28:30] we're going to put on this video for you and your mom and dad, and you're going to watch it, and it's going to tell you all about surgery.

[28:38] And then we put the video on and we leave the room,

[28:41] and then we come back an hour later,

[28:44] and we say

[28:46] what do you think?

[28:47] Did you like it?

[28:49] We don't usually say, you know, do you have any questions?

[28:54] What did you think about the part when the boy was really scared to go to surgery?

[29:01] You know, he thought he was going to go to sleep and he wasn't going to wake up. Like,

[29:05] we don't interact with them after the fact, and we think that by putting on that video or giving them that book with the pictures in it,

[29:15] that we are providing education and that the patient has been educated.

[29:21] Tim: Right.

[29:22] Michelle: Those are two different things. Right?

[29:25] Tim: Yes.

[29:25] Michelle: And I know that time is always a short commodity for us in the healthcare realm, but I just think that one of the things that would be really valuable is if the nurse stayed in the room while they're watching it.

[29:42] And you could even pause and say,

[29:44] I saw that you were really,

[29:46] you had a scared look on your face when you saw that.

[29:50] Can you tell me about that?

[29:52] You know, I just think that the educational process would be so much deeper if we could use techniques like that. What do you think about that?

[30:03] Tim: I agree, I agree. So that's, you know, we think about that a lot. Cause some people say, well, you know,

[30:10] it should just be the nurse, you know, in the room, you know, describing this. Like,

[30:15] nobody's arguing with, you know, that. So,

[30:19] you know, I was just listening to an interview with Sal Khan, who does Khan Academy, you know, and talking about,

[30:26] oh, geez, you know, people thought like, are you trying to replace teachers? You know, it's like, 

[30:31] no, these are teaching aids. This is what it is.

[30:37] But I've seen even in, you know, in K through 12 education, this idea that maybe our whole scenario of, of education has been backwards, where,

[30:49] you know, you go to school,

[30:50] the teacher gives the lecture, then sends you home to do the, you know, to do the homework all by yourself. And that's a really hard thing to do because now you have questions.

[31:00] And so, yes,

[31:02] what if, you know, when you go home, you watch the lecture on video about what the thing is, and then when you're in the classroom,

[31:10] you can ask those questions and have those small group discussions and do those, you know, kinds of things. Is that a better model for presenting this? And I think likewise, as you said,

[31:23] that's in an ideal world, the way I see it, because I've also been a patient and, you know, like,

[31:30] you're waiting around, you know, there's long stretches of time where you're waiting for somebody to come in and talk to. So I think this idea that having technology,

[31:42] being able to have video, being able to, you know, to do this. Yes. If the, you know, if the nurse has time to sit there and watch the video and interact with you,

[31:53] that's fantastic.

[31:54] I understand with staffing shortages and everything else, that's probably not going to happen. Right. But this idea that, okay, we could present you with some information to help get you prepared.

[32:10] The nurse can come in,

[32:12] have this conversation now, because this is what I've heard. Like, nurses would, you know, come in, do you have any questions, like,

[32:19] and kids don't even know what to ask because they don't know.

[32:22] They don't know what they don't know.

[32:25] Once you've at least presented some basic information,

[32:29] they at least know what they know, know what they don't know. And then you can have some kind of Interaction. And now with technology,

[32:37] this ability to say, now you could potentially,

[32:43] you know, interact with an,

[32:45] an assistant, an aide, you know, some, something to ask some of those general questions to help form, you know, this not in a rote sort of way, like, okay, now I'm going to ask you, but as, you know, a teacher, the OR and a nurse educator,

[33:04] the teach back method, like, well, tell me, you know, tell me what you thought of. So I think you've said beautifully, you know, to say, because then you can understand as they're talking about it what they understood, what they, you know, what they didn't understand.

[33:20] And I'm really fascinated with this concept of narrative medicine too. And really under, you know, asking those questions and then analyzing what words did they, you know, use to describe their, you know, their understanding and their situation and how are they expressing that at like analyzing a piece of literature,

[33:42] analyzing the feedback that you're getting from that patient says a lot more than the words themselves. And so I think there's a lot there.

[33:52] And we always look at,

[33:54] we're, you know, we're a support for, for pediatricians, for nurses, for child life, for,

[34:00] you know, educators that are in the room. And there's never going to be, you know, a replacement for that. And that's vital and important at the same time.

[34:12] There's a lot, there's a long time that maybe kids are waiting to see someone that we can use that time, you know, effectively.

[34:21] A lot of times maybe when the nurse comes into the room, they're coming out of surgery or they've just had medication, they're not necessarily in the best headspace to receive that information and if it can be watched again, you know, in an hour tomorrow,

[34:38] you know, when grandma comes next week and like, well, you know, what's going on? Well, maybe we can watch these videos and go through and have these conversations asynchronously.

[34:52] There a lot of benefit for that.

[34:56] And it's not an either or, it's a both. And these are all things I think that cumulatively we can do to,

[35:03] you know, to serve patients.

[35:06] Michelle: Yeah, you are spot on about the patient and the family needing to be ready to receive the information that is so important.

[35:17] One of my big pet peeves in the NICU is we would admit this baby that was 25 weeks weighing one pound on a ventilator, all these lines,

[35:31] and the mom would come and see the baby for the first time and the nurse would launch into this,

[35:38] huge piece of education where we're educating them about the admission,

[35:45] about all the rules,

[35:47] when they can hold their baby, when they can touch their baby.

[35:50] And the mom is sitting there with like deer in the headlights, she's looking at her baby,

[35:59] she's totally overwhelmed with all of everything that's going on. She's on the verge of tears.

[36:06] And I would say to the nurse, you know, afterwards,

[36:09] I think she heard maybe 5% of what you said. Like she was not ready for that.

[36:15] Tim: Right.

[36:16] Michelle: And nurses,

[36:17] often feel very frustrated that they have to repeat themselves multiple times.

[36:25] And it's like, exactly for this reason, the patient is not ready to receive the information that you are giving. So it's not going to make an impact.

[36:38] And I think nurses could really benefit from reading the patients and reading the situation, reading the room and not just checking off that I gave admission information.

[36:53] Tim: So you're absolutely spot on.

[36:57] Michelle: Big pet peeve.

[36:58] Tim: Right.

[36:59] Michelle: Well, your content is used by major healthcare institutions across the country. What changes have you seen in how hospitals approach patient education?

[37:12] Tim: So I've seen first of all that over the last 15 years we have started to move more from print only, so there's more video and interactive kinds of experiences that hospitals and health systems are, are starting to use.

[37:31] I've seen that.

[37:33] Well, really everything's now moving towards the patient portal. Right. And so for better or for worse.

[37:41] Right?

[37:42] Michelle: Yep.

[37:43] Tim: This is where we are. And so I,

[37:48] think that's maybe one of the biggest challenges because I know nurses, doctors, I mean they believe in inpatient education but to launch a pediatric patient portal in EPIC is not easy, it's a multi-year process and so many,

[38:08] regulations and so many hurdles and then the experience from, you know,

[38:14] from the kids point of view, they're used to going on,

[38:16] you know, sites that are built for them and you know, and that's the unfair dichotomy I think between sort of TikTok and social media and the patient portal. Like on the one hand, like it's just so easy to, you know, to jump in and,

[38:33] and you know, almost lose yourself. And I think we don't need to talk about the dark side. But the,

[38:40] you know, social media is, you know, really finding out very quickly with not much information who this kid is, what, you know, what they like, what they don't like and then, you know, and feeding that maybe to,

[38:53] to their detriment.

[38:55] Where on the other hand,

[38:57] We've got kids,

[38:58] you know, in the hospital that desperately need this information and can't even get it because they, we're so locked down that, you know,

[39:10] we can't present this information and HIPAA,

[39:14] you know, compliance and all these regulations. And so a lot of the pediatricians and informaticists I talk to are like, you know, very frustrated on that end that we, you know, we're still there.

[39:27] So on the one hand,

[39:29] you know,

[39:30] bringing everything out of paper and into the electronic world was supposed to,

[39:36] you know, free up and make this so much better.

[39:41] I still think that we have such a long way to go. We really don't have access to our own data.

[39:48] It's sort of kept away from us and used as a commodity sometimes against us.

[39:53] Too many regulations, too many barriers still to overcome within,

[39:58] you know, within healthcare.

[40:00] But we're moving. It's, you know, in healthcare, by its very nature is slow moving. Right?

[40:07] Yeah, slow, slow.

[40:09] Michelle: So slow. Because this has been going on since,

[40:12] you know, I didn't start, I started out in 1986. We didn't have any technology in terms of a medical record or anything like that.

[40:21] And you know, when I left in 2022, we had a program,

[40:25] an electronical metal, an electronic medical record that we could put in any topic that we wanted to teach the patient about.

[40:34] And the computer would spit out 10 pages of just text,

[40:41] like there were no illustrations or anything.

[40:45] And then we give it to the patient and we say,

[40:48] okay, I can check this box that they've been educated.

[40:52] We don't even know if they can read.

[40:55] Tim: I know, right.

[40:57] Michelle: We don't even ask them that.

[40:59] Tim: Right, right.

[41:00] Michelle: It's ridiculous. And you're right, the pace is so slow. Mind numbing slow.

[41:11] Tim: Right, right.

[41:12] Michelle: It's so frustrating and I'm sure it must be so frustrating for people like you that are creating these programs and then you meet with all these barriers.

[41:22] Tim: Right, exactly. So it is frustrating. And you know, some of the hospitals, you know, I talked to one in March and they're very excited and they're still putting their committee together to review the video.

[41:36] Like this is six months ago.

[41:39] Michelle: Right.

[41:40] Tim: And I get it, like you're very busy and lots of things, you know, go on, but just that,

[41:45] especially after being in entertainment before that, where everything moves like super fast.

[41:51] Michelle: Yeah. You know, so frustrating.

[41:53] Tim: Right, right.

[41:54] Michelle: So, how do you see technology, like AI, shaping the future of health communication?

[42:03] Tim: So I think that,

[42:06] and we'll see it in every other,

[42:07] like everything else. We'll see this in every other industry and vertical long before it, it comes to healthcare.

[42:17] That this idea that if a child is really curious about something, we can present information but then they just want to ask and have the, you know, a conversation.

[42:28] And this technology is getting better and better at being able to answer these questions and wouldn't that be fantastic? And I use it, you know, daily.

[42:40] I don't know if you do as well, but, you know, this Chat GPT and these other things are really amazing tools. Right. And yeah, you have to educate yourself. Like they hallucinate.

[42:50] You can't take everything for, you know, for at face value,

[42:55] but understanding, you know, being able to be a critical thinker and,

[43:00] and use that information but also feed that creativity and that curiosity,

[43:07] I think could just be fundamentally, you know, change.

[43:12] So this idea that,

[43:14] well, you know, only 12% of people have proficient health literacy. Why is that?

[43:19] I think first of all, whose responsibility is it? No, it's the hot potato, everybody. Like, it's not my job. Right. I don't get paid. Right, Right. So I think that's the first biggest thing.

[43:31] Like, well, it's up to the patient. Right. They should educate themselves. Like, well, come on. Really?

[43:40] but if you've ever sat in a hospital bed or been in an exam room, you've got a million questions, right? What's going to happen? What's going to happen next? How much is this going to cost?

[43:50] What, you know, how is my life going to change? Can I still, you know, do the daily activities that I love to do? What, you know, like there's just a million questions that, you know, that people have that potentially could be answered with technology to a certain extent.

[44:11] Right. And so I think that is very possible. It would definitely serve the families and the kids that had those legitimate questions that want to know answers to that.

[44:22] I think realistically the health system says, yeah, but if it says something wrong and somebody follows that, we're going to get sued. So we're just not going to, you know, even allow that.

[44:36] And so, yeah, and I think for right or wrong, that's the world that we, you know, that we live in. And you've probably read the headlines just as I have.

[44:45] So parents are suing Chat GPT because their teenagers have confided in, you know, in an LLM and killed themselves. And now,

[44:56] they want to hold someone responsible. And so these aren't hypothetical fears that the hospitals have, right? These are very,

[45:04] very real,

[45:06] you know, real concerns.

[45:08] But I think with,

[45:09] you know, some guardrails to say we're not going to diagnose. Well, I'm not a doctor, I'm not giving you legal advice or anything, but if you have questions about what's supposed to happen and what the, you know, these things are to have,

[45:24] just like a nurse could do that if a nurse or child life or a doctor isn't available to answer, to help support that,

[45:36] that transfer of knowledge and information,

[45:39] I think that's a true and legitimate use of technology.

[45:44] And eventually we will get there and it will seem strange that we, you know, it took us so long to,

[45:52] to get there. Just like it still seems strange to me, like, why is the patient portal still so hard? Right? Like these kids are just right there, they're sitting in that bed and you just, we can't present them information because there's still regulatory hurdles and all these things we have to get over and we don't want to get sued.

[46:13] So we maybe just will not do anything at this point until we can mitigate all the risks.

[46:24] Michelle: Well, I will say even ChatGPT in their fine print says "ChatGPT can make mistakes."

[46:33] Tim: Right.

[46:34] Michelle: So basically fact check us.

[46:36] Tim: Exactly.

[46:37] Michelle: You know, and it's like they should have somebody that can, a medical professional that can be a fact checker and clear something up if it wasn't correct that Chat GPT spit out.

[46:49] But it's gonna be really interesting.

[46:52] The future of health education,

[46:55] I think.

[46:56] Tim: Where do you think it's gonna go? I'd love to hear.

[46:59] Michelle: I really don't know. 

[47:03] it has to get better.

[47:05] It has to get better. And I think the only way it's gonna get better is they're gonna have to use technology.

[47:11] So.

[47:12] Okay, well,

[47:14] as we get ready to close here, Tim, if you could give one piece of advice to healthcare leaders who are trying to better communicate with patients,

[47:25] what would it be?

[47:26] Tim: I would say don't underestimate fun.

[47:31] So I know that what we're doing is serious.

[47:36] It is essential,

[47:39] but just a little bit of fun,

[47:42] however that is. And I think great doctors, great nurse, that bedside manner, they get it right. And we've seen those people. I can walk in and get that light that patient up and ask them questions.

[47:54] And a lot of times it's,

[47:56] I'm interested in you. How are you doing today? What's going on? What, you know, what. What are your concerns today? What's happening?

[48:04] And we all really appreciate that. And so I think having some fun in education and patient education is maybe the most underutilized aspect of what we do. That can build trust, that can build rapport, that can at least create that spark of curiosity that leads us into all of those other conversations,

[48:32] even though probably we'd prefer not to have some of these conversations. Right. But,

[48:38] okay, they're here. They're on my side. They're concerned about me. 

[48:44] They've sparked my curiosity and at least helped set some context for why this information is important.

[48:51] And so I'm gonna delve a little deeper and learn a little bit more. And I think that's the bottom line, I think so. That's the one thing I would say.

[49:03] Michelle: I would say that's great advice, Tim. And, you know, I would just piggyback on that. Access your inner child.

[49:13] Tim: That's great. Right?

[49:14] Michelle: Right.

[49:14] Tim: Yeah.

[49:15] Michelle: Your inner child knows how to have fun.

[49:17] Tim: Right.

[49:18] Michelle: So access your inner child and bring that to the table.

[49:22] That's great advice. And maybe, man, I have loved talking to you today.

[49:27] I just, every time I talk to a non-nurse, because I've talked to so many nurses,

[49:34] I'm just fascinated and I'm so appreciative of the work that you do because ultimately, what you're doing is you're making the lives of

[49:45] patients, families, and healthcare providers easier.

[49:51] And anybody that does that is just, like, really high up in my book.

[49:59] So thank you, Tim.

[50:00] Tim: Well, thanks for the kind words. And likewise, I am just always in awe of nurses and what they do and what they have to go through. And I understand the burnout and everything that they're going through.

[50:13] And I think, gosh, if

[50:15] I could do anything to make their lives better and to support,

[50:20] you know, the important mission that they have.

[50:23] Yes, I want to be on that team. I want to play my part. I want to do what I can do to make this whole system better, because I get it.

[50:32] A lot of people say the system is broken and maybe we should burn it all down. I don't think that's true. I think definitely it can be better, but we have to be optimistic and work together, and it takes a lot of different people with a lot of different talent to,

[50:48] you know, to do that. So thank you for that.

[50:51] Michelle: Well, we appreciate you and, and we're glad that you're in this space.

[50:56] Tim: Likewise. Appreciate you and, and thanks again for having me on. It's been a great conversation.

[51:02] Michelle: Yes, it has.

[51:04] Well, I have gotten so many amazing guests who have come to me from other guests who recommended them, so you don't have to answer this right here if you, it's kind of a one of those on the spot questions, but is there someone you would recommend as a guest on the Conversing Nurse podcast?

[51:24] Tim: I can send a list. There are so many people that I know that just have,

[51:30] you know, just great insights and great,

[51:33] information.

[51:35] So I will send you my list.

[51:39] It's probably longer than you might like, but it's, that's okay.

[51:43] Michelle: Choices, right?

[51:44] Tim: Exactly. Exactly.

[51:46] Michelle: Very cool. Well, where can we find you, Tim?

[51:49] Tim: So HealthnutsMedia.com is our website.

[51:53] It's been a little while since we've done it and we're in the process of redoing our site, so we should have a brand new site.

[52:01] And if you want to reach out to me on LinkedIn, that's always a great place as well. So.

[52:08] Michelle: Yes, I love LinkedIn. I've gotten so many great connections from LinkedIn, so I'm a big fan.

[52:15] Tim: Me too.

[52:16] Michelle: Very cool.

[52:17] Tim: I only just recently started doing that and I think that's how I met you. So yeah, for that, for that alone, I really appreciate LinkedIn. 

[52:27] Michelle: Aww. Well, we're at the end, we're at the last five minutes. So the last five minutes I do this little segment called the five minute snippet and it's just five minutes of fun questions.

[52:39] Tim: Okay? Sure.

[52:41] Michelle: You ready for that?

[52:42] Tim: Let's do it.

[52:43] Michelle: Okay.

[53:24] Tim, if you had to explain what you do to a five year old and in one sentence,

[53:31] what would you say?

[53:32] Tim: I make cartoons.

[53:35] Michelle: That's great. I love it. Okay, what's your Favorite animated character of all time.

[53:42] Tim: Of all time. Wow, that's tough. Homer Simpson, I suppose.

[53:49] Michelle: Oh, wow. Okay, very cool. If Health Nuts Media had a mascot, what would it be?

[53:58] Tim: You know, I guess the Big Bad Wolf.

[54:01] Michelle: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, that sounds scary.

[54:06] Tim: Well, our asthma series,

[54:07] it's the Big Bad Wolf who goes to blow down the three Little pigs house. And he huffs and he puffs and he has an asthma attack and the pigs get worried about him and take him into the doctor, and he doesn't know anything about asthma or what's going on,

[54:20] and the doctors help him and by the end of the story, he gets his huff and puff back. So, you know, so that's it.

[54:25] Michelle: I love it. That's amazing. Okay. Which is harder, winning an Emmy or explaining medical jargon to kids?

[54:36] Tim: Which is harder? Yeah, I would say explaining medical jargon.

[54:41] Michelle: It is hard, huh?

[54:42] Tim: It is hard, right? Yeah, it's hard work.

[54:46] Michelle: Yes. Okay. If you could create a health video starring any celebrity's voice, who would you pick?

[54:55] Tim: Wow. I, you know, living or dead?

[54:59] Michelle: Yeah.

[55:00] Tim: Okay. James Earl Jones, I always thought he had one of the absolute best, you know, voices. So if I could voice cast anyone, you give me James Earl Jones.

[55:13] Michelle: I just thought of Sandlot.

[55:15] Tim: Okay. Right.

[55:17] Michelle: What a great movie. And his voice, yes. So great.

[55:22] Okay, last question.

[55:24] What is the funniest or most unexpected feedback you've ever received from a child about your content?

[55:34] Tim: Because we have a child advisory, you know, panel. So we were talking about, can't remember what the video was and we said,

[55:42] you know, things go haywire.

[55:44] And they had no idea. Like, haywire. What does haywire mean?

[55:50] And I realized, like, oh, okay, so if they don't, like, I guess maybe I'm using jargon and telling people like, you should stop using it. It's not medical jargon, but it was a phrase they had no idea, like, nothing haywire meant.

[56:05] So. And I just thought that was funny because it just, to me, like,

[56:09] everybody knows what haywire means, don't they? And like, no.

[56:12] Michelle: That's amazing. I love it.

[56:15] That reminds me, I was having a conversation with my bonus grandkids who are 12, 10, and 8.

[56:22] And so I had them all before me and we were going somewhere and they were kind of new to me and I was saying,

[56:31] so I want you guys, you know, to mind yourself.

[56:36] And, you know, I knew exactly what I was talking about. Right.

[56:40] And so they're all sitting there with like,

[56:43] you know, big eyes.

[56:45] And my middle grandson, he says,

[56:49] no one's ever told me that, I don't know what that is. I said.

[56:54] haven't your parents told you, like, you need to mind yourself? They're like,

[56:59] no. No one's ever said that.

[57:01] So then I had to break it down. Okay, well, I want you guys to

[57:06] stay quiet, don't roughhouse. And they're like, oh, okay. You know,

[57:12] but, yeah, it can be lost on some. And that's hilarious.

[57:16] Haywire.

[57:17] Yeah. Who would think, right?

[57:19] Tim: Right.

[57:20] Michelle: I love it.

[57:22] Michelle: Love it. You did great at the five minute snippet.

[57:24] Tim: Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, that was a lot of fun. What a great way to.

[57:27] Michelle: It always is.

[57:28] Yeah. We get to laughing.

[57:31] Well, thank you, Tim, so much for being here and bringing your knowledge and expertise and your humor to our group.

[57:40] I really appreciate it.

[57:42] Tim: Yeah, thanks so much. This has been a pleasure. Really appreciate it.

[57:46] Michelle: Well, you have a great rest of your day, whatever you're doing.

[57:48] Tim: Okay. You do the same.

[57:50] Michelle: Thank you.

[57:51] Tim: Thanks.