Maegan Megginson - Opting Out of Capitalism: Can You Be Rested AND Wildly Successful?

Sick of burnout culture? Are you a healer, naturally intuitive, or highly sensitive? Do you feel you have to choose between rest and success? Do. Not. Miss. This. Episode.

We're joined for a deeply honest conversation with Maegan Megginson, a licensed therapist, 7-figure entrepreneur, and dynamite business coach. Maegan, with her rich background in therapy and business, brings to light the pressures high-achievers and sensitive people face in a society deeply influenced by patriarchal and capitalistic values -- and how to opt out. 

After being awarded "The Best at Everything" at school, Maegan vulnerably shares the double-edged sword of childhood praise and achievement, and the lasting impact of familial conditioning and expectation on how we perceive ourselves and interact with the world.  Maegan offers insightful strategies on how to disengage from harmful systems that perpetuate stress, burnout, and low self worth. We break down perfectionism, ambition, and how to be a wildly successful without sacrificing self-care. 

Together, we explore the intertwining relationship between societal norms and the disempowerment of individuals, discovering ways can challenge and dismantle the systems that harm us. The episode explores the role of boundaries, self-reflection, and incremental changes to shift away from societal pressures towards a more rest, more success, and more authenticity. 

• Maegan's personal journey as a therapist and entrepreneur
• The impact of childhood conditioning on self-perception and self expectation
• Being the black sheep of a family
• Navigating burnout and identity formation in a patriarchal, capitalistic society
• The role of healthy boundaries in preventing burnout and promoting self-discovery
• The insidious systems of control that perpetuate stress and inadequate self-worth
• The nuance between ambition and aspiration
• Practical strategies to disengage from harmful systems and nurture self-trust
• Challenging societal norms and dismantling oppressive ideologies
• The importance of dialogue, self-reflection, and incremental personal growth
  
  

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:02

To even question what you've been told is true is incredibly courageous. It doesn't always feel like courage, what looks like courage to other people. For me, it feels like survival. This is our personal medicine.

SPEAKER_00: 0:15

If I'm surrounded by thinkers, by lovers, by passion, by integrity, then I really do think that I know who I am.

SPEAKER_04: 0:21

There is a piece that is indescribable when you're being who you are and you're living your purpose. I'm not gonna come to the end of my life and be like, I didn't live the life I was meant to live.

SPEAKER_08: 0:30

Can I be so comfortable in the unknown and so comfortable in that uncertainty that every version of it is going to be okay?

SPEAKER_03: 0:38

This is the Inner Rebel Podcast.

SPEAKER_08: 0:50

I am so excited for our guest today. I'm really excited, Melissa, for you to meet our guest today. We have Megan Meganson, who is a licensed therapist. You're a business coach, and you're a creator of Next Level Therapist, which is a coaching community for established therapists who are ready to take their careers to the next level. And you are also the founder of the Rest and Success Code. I'm really excited to talk to you. A charity fundraising event that inspires therapists to become deeply rested and wildly successful. And you also work with entrepreneurs as well, not just therapists.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24

Correct.

SPEAKER_08: 1:25

I am so happy to have you. Thank you for being on the show. There's so much we want to talk about. And I want to get right to the meat. I'm going to start with this beautiful story that you share on your website. We love your website. We talked about your website for 10 minutes before we recorded. And you start out by saying, my adolescent self could be described as suffocatingly serious, paralyzingly perfectionist, and obnoxiously overachieving. My eighth grade class voted me most likely to succeed, which is a polite way of saying most boring and uncool, but we it's so good. I love it so much. Which is a polite way of saying most boring and uncool, but we know you'll be our boss one day. So we want to stay on your good side. So good. So first of all, I love that you have a sense of humor about it. I would love if you could tell us about that overachieving, perfectionist, serious little girl. And what was she going through at that time in her life? Who was she underneath all of that? Whew.

SPEAKER_06: 2:27

You weren't joking when you said, let's get right to it.

SPEAKER_03: 2:29

Okay. We don't swim in the shallow end. Uh except when we talked about your website for 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_06: 2:34

We're gonna cannonball off of the diving board and play in the deep end of the pool. There's a similarity among healers and therapists, I find. And I'm gonna say this like generally and then bring it to my experience specifically. But in general, I find that many healers are born into this world highly sensitive beings, very sensitive nervous systems, very empathic, very naturally intuitive. And many of us are born into families who are not that way. Um, you know, we're the black sheeps of the family in terms of being these really raw, sensitive beings who are here to love and are here to feel and are here to support. But when you are raised in an environment that isn't gentle and isn't conducive to that type of sensitivity, you have to learn how to pack it away. And I think that is certainly what happened to me. I think it's what happens to many people. And for me, the packing it away was this process of figuring out how do I hide my sensitivity? How do I kind of build a barrier around myself so that the world doesn't hurt so much, but maintain connection at the same time. And the way that I found I was able to maintain connection was through success, right? Was through good grades and good behavior and accolades. You know, let me just show you how good I am, how smart I am, how well behaved I am. And that will get me acknowledgement validation. You know, I remember some of my earliest memories are of my parents celebrating me in response to a good grade, right? I can have this one very specific memory. I was probably, I don't know, like third grade. And I came home from school and I had done really well in something academically. And my parents, so sweet. So they were loving me in the way that they knew how. So I have so much gratitude for that. But they're, they had this celebration for me. They took me to the toy store. I got to pick out a toy, they took me to dinner. I remember my dad putting me up on the kitchen counter and they were just celebrating me. And I I really hold that as a moment when the serious, perfectionist, straight A student was really conditioned to be like, okay, this is it. This is how we get connection. This is how we are seen. I think that's really where it came from was this desire to protect my sensitivity while maintaining connection. And that was a really successful strategy for me in childhood.

SPEAKER_03: 5:09

I feel like a bobblehead over here. Like my head is just gonna come off its rocker.

SPEAKER_06: 5:13

Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a unique story, I'm aware. This is the common thread for so many of us who are sensitive, are smart, are seeking connection and community. It's really astounding how many of us fall into this trap.

SPEAKER_03: 5:28

So true. I have an almost six-year-old who's in kindergarten and they have this whole social emotional program, which I always cry when they talk about it because I'm so happy that they're acknowledging who he's being, not just what he's doing. He won an award for who he is, of like how he like sees the gift in other people. And it was called Love Your Passengers.

SPEAKER_06: 5:47

What a day and age we live in now that kids are getting this type of collection.

SPEAKER_03: 5:52

That is so beautiful. It's so beautiful. And it just is like so needed. It's a shame that your story is not abnormal. I was a straight A student, very similar. And it's something that as a parent, I really have to watch because I want to celebrate him trying hard and being awesome, but also I'm so aware of the pain that it's caused me and so many to be raised on this pedestal of achievement. So anyway, it's changing.

SPEAKER_06: 6:18

It gives me life to know that it's changing. Someone told a story recently and I was like, Oh, that's really magical. She said, When I'm working with kids, I never tell them I'm proud of them. And at first I was like, What? That's weird. She said, No. She says, when a kid does something and you can tell, and I can tell that they're proud of themselves, I say, How are you feeling right now? Okay, so let's say they come home and they got um a gold star on their paper and they're like, Look, look at my paper, look at my paper. Wow, gold star. How are you feeling right now? And it gives the child an opportunity to maybe even say, I'm proud of myself or I'm so happy. And then reflecting back, wow, I'm so glad that you're proud of yourself. I love you so much that there's a way to reflect back. And I'm transposing this onto my adult self now, too, right? Of even with our friends and our colleagues being able to say, I can see that you are so proud of yourself and the light is shining so brightly from within you. And I have so much love for you right now. So we can see and celebrate without making it about the achievement or the doing. And in my own work in my life right now, I'm just really trying to separate the doing from the being without losing the sense of celebration or validation.

SPEAKER_08: 7:34

Yeah. So big, so beautifully said. Everything you're saying is poetry to me. You literally got the best at everything award.

SPEAKER_06: 7:46

And they literally made up an award for me. Made it up. I I won all the awards in the eighth grade, and then they liked me so much that they then made up an award. And it was just, you're just the best at everything. We had this award ceremony, eighth grade, and I didn't know the award ceremony was happening. It's 12 o'clock, the announcements come over the loudspeaker, and all eighth graders come to the auditorium. Okay, so we go to the auditorium and we're walking into the auditorium, and I pass my entire family sitting there. And I'm like, what the fuck? What is my family doing here? Like my grandparents, my parents, my sister, like my aunt, my whole family. No one else's family was there. And I was so confused. Anyways, it's the award ceremony. I start winning all the awards, and my family's there and they look so proud. And then at the end, they give me the special best in everything award. And I have this photograph of me and my dad. And I have so many awards I can't even hold them all. So like he's holding some of them. And I have the best of everything award in my hand. And when I look at that photo, I'm like, oh my God, that's the moment. That's the moment when my inner perfectionist started driving the bus and said, This is it. Look at all the love you're getting right now. Look at all the love. Look how much look, you belong more right now than you've ever belonged before. And it was just solidifying that this is how you get love. This is how you belong. And I have so much gratitude now for this memory and this moment in time and this photograph that I can see with such clarity. Oh, that's how that happened.

SPEAKER_08: 9:20

I love it. You just answered the question I wanted to ask because the recognition, like we've been talking about, that we receive early in our lives, can be a double-edged sword. What were the two sides of that sword for you? How did it shape your expectations about your own success?

SPEAKER_06: 9:39

The gentle end of the sword is gratitude for love. I am so grateful that I have a family who loves me. I have a family, and this is another double-edged sword. My family, they do not see me. They don't, and I don't know if they ever will like really see me and really understand who I am at my core. We're very different. They're all in Southeast Texas. I've moved to the West Coast. There's a reason for that. Enough said. Enough said. So I am not seen by my family, but I am loved by my family. And I know so many people are not loved by their family. So the soft side of that sword is like, wow, how grateful I am that my family showed up that day and that they were so proud and that they had so much love for me.

SPEAKER_03: 10:28

Can I pause you? Yeah, please. Because I think that this is something that I've really struggled with a lot, and I know a lot of people have is that I am not seen, but I am loved. And it feels really confusing to my system. How can you have such deep, meaningful love that is not rooted in fully being seen? And I'm curious how you navigate that because I know that this is something that is so common for people who are privileged enough to have that kind of a love, but it doesn't come with, but do you even know me? What are you really loving? You know?

SPEAKER_06: 11:02

I think I really love that question. It's been a journey for me because I spent many years of my adult life feeling that because I wasn't seen, I wasn't loved. Like I was really lost in that a little bit. Well, how can I let this love in as genuine? You don't see me, right? If you don't see me, you can't love me. And I think the first transformative thing that happened for me, in addition to like a decade of therapy.

unknown: 11:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 11:27

Also that was that I found people who did see me. Yeah. So I created some found family and I started having corrective experiences with my partner, with my found family around being seen and being loved. It took years to like, okay, I gotta let that in. I got to absorb that. I got to really give myself the gift of being both seen and loved. And as that tank started to fill for me, I was then able to begin looking at my family through a different lens.

unknown: 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 11:55

And looking at my family through the lens of who they are and what traumas they hold in their bodies and where they're open versus where they're closed. And all of a sudden, I started to see them not as caregivers who didn't see me, but as fellow humans who are doing their best. And I think because my tank was being filled by other people, I don't think I could have done this if I hadn't created that found family. But because my tank was being filled by other people, I'm now able to sit and look at my own family and say, wow, these people are doing the best that they can. And they're not seeing me because they don't want to. They're not seeing me because they don't know how. But they're loving me anyways. And isn't that a gift?

SPEAKER_03: 12:42

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really beautiful way of articulating that and just the journey that it takes to go from one end of the spectrum to the other around that and the acceptance of who they are. I'm curious if you had a fear of being seen, of if I show myself, will they still love me? Was that part of your story, or is that not as big of a piece of it for you?

SPEAKER_06: 13:05

I don't think for me, the fear wasn't if I show myself, they won't love me. I think it was more if I truly show myself, I will continue to experience life as a series of microaggressions against who I really am. This memory is coming to my mind right now of there was a time in junior high. So it's probably like, let's just say I was 12, and I found this thing in the newspaper. I grew up outside of Houston. So the Natural Science Museum in Houston was doing some kind of weekend event. And I thought it sounded so fun. It was totally nerdy. It was like this super nerdy social event. And and I showed it to my family and I was like, can we go to this? And they laughed because they thought I was joking, because they thought it was like the dumbest thing they'd ever seen. You know, like, why would you go to the museum on a Saturday? And and I remember like that was a real moment of learning for my nervous system of, oh, they don't get you. And that hurt. You know, that was a real rupture. So was I rejected? Was I not loved in that moment? No, I didn't feel like I was not loved in the same way someone who's maybe coming out could be rejected by their family. Didn't feel like we reject you, but it was just this micro rejection of like, oh, you showed us a little bit of who you are and we don't get it. And I think that pain was so acute that I started really suppressing parts of myself I knew would not be received with understanding.

SPEAKER_08: 14:37

Was that a conscious process or was that unconscious at the time?

SPEAKER_06: 14:42

Like totally unconscious at the time. Yeah. I think it's been in my adult years of doing my work that I've gone, oh, wow, gratitude to 12-year-old you, how smart.

SPEAKER_08: 14:53

That we make these adjustments, right?

SPEAKER_06: 14:55

Yes, you made such a smart adjustment. Yeah, to protect yourself. Because it's really easy to go straight into a self-criticism. Oh, why did you hide who you were? No. We all do. Wow. Oh, sweetheart, like how smart that was that you knew you needed to protect yourself in that way.

SPEAKER_08: 15:11

But hey, you don't have to do that anymore. Like that's the learning. From everything that you're sharing with us, and thank you for being so vulnerable with it. Can you paint for us what you felt at that time the expectations were? Who did you think you needed to be coming out of that environment?

SPEAKER_06: 15:31

I didn't grow up in a system that told me I had to be one thing. For example, neither of my parents, my dad has an associate's degree, and my mom didn't go to college. So neither of my parents had an expectation, you're gonna be a doctor or you're gonna get a PhD. It wasn't specific in that way because that wasn't their frame of reference. But what they knew was that I was the best at everything and I was super smart, and they were working very hard to create a life that would afford every opportunity for me. So the expectation was that you are going to be successful at whatever you do, and it's going to be something that checks the traditional patriarchal capitalistic boxes. I grew up doing theater and wanted for years to do theater professionally. And I'm really grateful that they gave me the opportunity to explore it in several different ways. But it was always with the caveat that, like, we're not gonna stop you. I think they knew they couldn't stop me. They were like, there's no stopping her. But but the message was always like, yeah, but you're gonna have to get a real job. You're gonna have to get a real career. And anytime I would make a decision that was in alignment with the quote, real career, that was validated, that was celebrated. So I think who are you supposed to be? You are supposed to be successful in all of the ways that our Western capitalistic society communicates success. Also, I should mention my dad is a successful entrepreneur. So at that time in my life, he had sold a company for millions and millions of dollars, and he was climbing the corporate ladder of this bigger company and like stocks and funds and early retirement. And that was the lens of success. So lots of capitalistic conditioning coming at me that was interweaving with my natural perfectionism and interweaving with my innate entrepreneurial spirit as well, and my desire to create. So these things are all playing together in my system. And anytime I do something that aligns with what's expected, there's a pat on the back, there's a at a girl, there's a thumbs up. So the conditioning is just building and mounting. So when I first had the idea that I wanted to be a therapist, I was in college, I was an undergrad. I started out my undergrad as a double major in theater and psychology. And at the end of my first year, I was like, okay, I think I'm done wanting to pursue art as a profession. I think I just want that to be my joy. I'm gonna keep going with psychology. So then the next question is, well, how are you gonna make money doing that? I thought, oh, I think I want to be a therapist. I think I want to be a therapist with a business. Okay, great, do that. And I did that. And I think that was coming from both this sort of pressure to quote, succeed in this external way, have a business be successful. And it was also coming from this conditioning that had been with me for so long of I'm sensitive, I'm intuitive, I'm an emotional caretaker. I had been groomed to be a therapist since I was like just a wee little babe. And I walked straight into that costume, I walked straight into that paradigm.

SPEAKER_07: 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 18:52

And I think that was the first iteration of me being both myself, but also the versions of me that everyone expected.

SPEAKER_08: 19:00

So success has always come naturally to you. So the problem for you wasn't actually about being successful, it was about finding authentic success. That's right.

SPEAKER_06: 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08: 19:12

So you went off, you became a very successful therapist very quickly. And then what did you start to experience that told you that something wasn't quite right for you?

SPEAKER_06: 19:24

Yeah. I want to repeat that back for myself because that what you just said is so true. It's it isn't that I was struggling to be seen, or because this is a struggle for so many of my clients now. Like they're so scared of being seen. They're so scared of being successful. So common to be afraid of those things. Those weren't my fears. I was not afraid to be seen. You know, I loved being on stage. I loved being seen. And I was not afraid of being successful. Like that, that really was coming naturally to me. It was that I felt like I was wearing a costume. I felt like I was performing and not in the way that brought me joy. So it wasn't authentic. And the way that was showing up in my body in those first few years of being in private practice, being on this path, I was feeling burnt out all the time. I was chronically fatigued. I was in pain. I was having physical pain to the point where I was going to the doctor. I was having, like, I had brain scans because I just had these headaches that wouldn't go away. So they're scanning my brain. They're sending me to the rheumatologist. The rheumatologist thinks that I might have some really rare form of rheumatoid arthritis. You know, they're like trying to put the symptoms in my body into this diagnosable paradigm. They put me on all these medications and there's something inside of me that's just, really? This isn't right. I don't want to be on Celebrex because my body hurts. I could just feel that something wasn't right. Like my body was telling me something, and I hadn't figured out yet what it was saying. And I was like, I just have to keep following this thread. What is it that my body's really trying to tell me? So I kept following the thread. And one of the, one of the first big things that happened in this process was I discovered the term highly sensitive person as a characteristic, not as a diagnosis, highly sensitive person in the same way we think about being an introvert or an extrovert, right? Highly sensitive is a trait that lives in your nervous system. It's a trait that's innate to who you are. And it just means that your nervous system is highly attuned. Your nervous system picks up more stimuli from the world than someone who isn't highly sensitive. And I went down the highly sensitive rabbit hole and I made a bunch of lifestyle changes to be more in alignment with being a highly sensitive person. And almost immediately my pain went away. My energy came back, like, oh, okay, this is new. This is different. Did that for a while. Things were feeling better. But then I was getting back into the wave of productivity and like, okay, well, you did this really well. So now what's the next step? What's the next step in your business? What's the next step for you professionally? And how can I continue proving myself? How can I continue making more money? I mean, this is the capitalist trap.

SPEAKER_08: 22:11

Can you let us know what you actually did? You said that you started to implement some of those changes. So, what were those changes?

SPEAKER_06: 22:19

If you're discovering that you're highly sensitive, the first thing to do is to really explore where are your sensitivities? Because they can be so different for all of us. For me, my biggest sensitivity was exposure to people's energy and sleep. So those were the two biggest things for me. I was around too many people too often. I was taking in too much energy and I wasn't sleeping enough. So what I did, I kind of cut my caseload so that I was seeing fewer clients. And I also significantly reduced how active I was socially in my own life. So I really slowed down in my work. And I just turned, I'm just imagining like a volume knob. I just turned the volume down on how much time I spent with friends or in social settings so that there was more space at home for silence. How can I just make my space at home less jarring? Turn the lights out, put on candles, soft music instead of loud music, weighted blankets, warmth, not being cold, taking baths. And then I started sleeping about nine to ten hours a night. I was just fresh out of grad school, you know. So I was like sleeping like six hours a night. I need nine to ten hours of sleep a night. Those were the biggest changes I made. People, environment, sleep.

SPEAKER_08: 23:45

Can I also mention that you're a projector and that Megan is a projector, and all of the things that you're sharing are very common traits and experiences of projectors. And I'm very, I'm just very proud of you for listening to your body and recognizing that. And you started to make those shifts. And now I'd love you to go back to what you were sharing that then you start to think again in terms of productivity. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_06: 24:15

Yeah, it's it was almost like, oh, I'm feeling better. What else can I do? I think when you're still really trapped in capitalism, that's often what happens. The second there's space, you're like, how can I fill this space? You know, like the void is something we want to avoid. We want to avoid the void in our lives. So if we create a void of just stillness and silence and restfulness, immediately we're like, oh, can I take on another client? Can I build something new? Can I create something new? Can I make more money? Like, how can I fill this space? And I started doing that. And a long story short, it took me right back to another episode of burnout. And this time, the burnout was not so much I'm not well in my body like it was the first time. It really was more pure exhaustion. Like I was just doing too much. I had moved to Portland. So my husband and I had left Texas, moved to Portland. I had started another private practice here in Portland, was full almost immediately. And we decided I knew I wanted to do something else. I could feel there was there was ambition in my chest, you know, and there was energy. And I was like, what comes next? Okay, this isn't enough for me. I want something bigger, I want something different than just this traditional private practice. But for many therapists, the only thing you're taught you're allowed to do is group practice. So basically, do what you're doing in private practice and now just hire more people to do that same thing. And then now you have a group of people who are just all doing the same thing. I thought that was my only option. So I did it. And I think that is what led into this second episode of burnout. I was just working so hard. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do. I was following the roadmap, I was following the checklist, I was wearing the costume.

SPEAKER_08: 26:15

Like being rewarded for it by the world.

SPEAKER_06: 26:16

Oh my gosh. Making money and being successful. Yeah. Yeah. And from every direction being rewarded. That's right. Yeah. And it just didn't feel right. I could just feel like this isn't, and even in the work. So I spoiler alert, I don't I'm not a therapist anymore. Even at the time, I was a couples and sex therapist. And I would end a lot of days feeling like there is a part of me that loves this work so much and is good at it and is so deeply grateful for the ways in which I am able to connect with these couples in such deep and profound ways. I have so much gratitude for the gift of the work that I did. So much gratitude and love. And on the other hand, the second the client would leave the office, I would close the door and be like, What are you doing? When I would be at dinner with friends and people would want to talk about work, or what do you do? I would be like, I don't want to talk about this. Yeah, I love my work. It's really great. But there was this growing resentment, right? Because for me, conditioning was very much if you're good at it, then that's what you're supposed to do. If you're good at it, that's what you should do. And I was good at it. And I did love it in the moment. So it took me many years before I was able to say to myself, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

SPEAKER_03: 27:43

That's one of my favorite quotes. Mine too. I don't want to say it weekly.

SPEAKER_06: 27:48

Because we can do so many things. But that doesn't mean we should. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:54

I say it to my clients, I say it to my friends, I say it to my husband. The fact that you know how to do it or you're good at it, or maybe it brought you joy at some point in your life doesn't mean you need to keep going down that path. You were getting so attuned to how everything was making you feel in your life, your environment, how is that making me feel? My work, how is that making me feel? I did like it, but afterwards I don't want to talk about it. And I, and it doesn't feel good in my body. And really, I think pointing out that awareness because everybody knows there's this knowing that you have of what is not fitting, what doesn't feel good. And oftentimes what needs to shift, whether you're ready for that or not, is a different story. But there's a deep body knowing for so many people that where I'm at right now no longer fits, or the way in which I'm showing up no longer fits. I'm sure you're seeing this after coming out of COVID, where a lot of projectors were probably thriving a lot more because you weren't asked to go all these places and your calendar wasn't full. And now people are like, whoa, what's happening in my life? But one of the things we're seeing is a trend of ignoring what you do know and continuing to push forward into that burnout zone. And it's so common for all the reasons that you already shared of our conditioning. And this is something that you're, I will call you an expert at balancing the burnout with nourishing your body and resting. So for all of the people that listen to our podcast and all the women in our lives that are really deeply struggling with how do I get out of this burnout cycle? Can you walk us through that? Because I think that is so prevalent in our culture.

SPEAKER_08: 29:32

Can I also just add one thought to that? Because I love that question. And I also think a lot of the people listening, they may not be therapists, but they might resonate with this idea of a wounded healer, you know, this tendency to overextend and deny our own needs because we actually want to serve. We actually want to help and be there for people, but not knowing how to have healthy, protective boundaries at the same time. So I think there is this component of yes, there's this culture. Where so much is demanded of us. And then there's also a lot of people I think who tune into this who have really big hearts and don't really know how to have enough of that self-nourishment and enough boundaries in order to be healthy in their giving, which is what I think you work with a lot.

SPEAKER_06: 30:16

I really appreciate you saying that, Jessica, because this is something every day that moves forward in my life, like my understanding of what it means to be a healer expands. As I meet people in the world who are outside of my little bubble of being psychotherapists, I'm just discovering oh, to be a healer is something that transcends the title of your occupation. And to be a healer, it's more about the energy that you bring into the work that you're doing. Teachers are healers, nurses are healers. I was just on a retreat with someone who works at um a big TV production studio. She's a healer. It's about what she brings into the office when she walks in during the day, how we're attuning to people, how we're showing up for people, how we are absorbing people's needs and emotions. And yeah, you can be a healer. Like a healer is it's like what's in your soul, not what's on your resume. So I really love that you're saying that. You don't have to be a doctor or a nurse or a therapist. If you feel that energy is in your soul and you're bringing that into the work that you're doing, then you should be listening to these conversations about burnout, about caretaking. These conversations are for you. Yeah, I'm really glad that you said that. That's something that's been on my mind lately. And Melissa, the way you were saying, probably like most people who identify as female will fall into this category because of the way we are conditioned to be caretakers. But we're all struggling with this common experience of burnout. We're all victims of these two primary systems, the patriarchy and capitalism, right? And it's the interplay of these two systems that is really toxic for people who have caregiving souls. So if you have a caregiving soul, let's take what you do on paper out of the equation. If you have a caregiving soul and you live in a westernized country and you live in a city, in a society that really subscribes to the interplay of patriarchy and capitalism, then you are probably struggling with some form of burnout. Yeah. Some form of inauthenticity of not being seen. So how do we collectively transform out of that? How do we opt out? I often say when I start feeling urgency in my body or when I start to feel burnout in my body, I take a deep breath and say, I'm opting out. I'm opting out of capitalism, I'm opting out of the patriarchy. It's not that simple, of course, but there is something powerful about putting your feet on the floor and just grabbing something and just being like, no, I refuse. I will not get caught up in the whirlwind of a dysfunctional system. That's the first step to overcoming burnout. Can you notice in the moment what you are partaking in? Can you notice in the moment? Can you say, Whoa, I am participating in a system right now that is not for me. I'm overwhelmed, I'm exhausted, I feel inauthentic, I feel unaligned. Can you first just name that's happening for you? And maybe all you can say right now is yucky, you know, or or ouch, or ooh, I'm tired. Doesn't have to be philosophical and complex, right? It could just be a noise. It could just be, ooh.

SPEAKER_03: 33:43

But I think what you're saying is if you can get to the more philosophical place of recognizing why it's happening, yeah, it's less of I'm bad or there's something wrong with me. It's like, oh, I'm participating in this system that is not set up for me to win. So even taking it out of that shameful place inside of you that it has been choosing to go along with the shit show, even as you said that that felt really good in my body of being like, oh yeah, this is like a whole game that I don't really want to be playing anymore.

SPEAKER_06: 34:12

Totally. I think for me, the more I can get into the philosophical, the freer I am beginning to feel. But I also think about myself 10 years ago and how this conversation, like my brain was so not ready for it yet. Just knowing where are you in your own body? If you're at the point in your own deprogramming that all you can say is, ouch, I'm hurting. Great, start there. Don't overanalyze it, don't overthink it. Just be in the ouch, be in the ouch, and then ask yourself intuitively, how can I not hurt quite so much? And trust the answer. And as you do that, day after day for years and years, as you are deprogramming yourself, eventually you will be here. You will be at the point where we're like, can we talk about capitalism for a minute? I'm starting to understand this is a fucked up system. And not only is it not designed for me to win, but it's actually designed to use me like a machine and then to throw me away like a piece of garbage.

SPEAKER_03: 35:13

So true.

SPEAKER_06: 35:14

So coming back to your other question, how do we get out of burnout? I will say that there was this huge aha moment for me. So I actually took that second episode of burnout I was telling you about, I had some intuitive noting that I needed to take a sabbatical that I needed to completely unplug and step away and go into silence for I did four weeks. That's what I that's what I could do at the time. I did four weeks. And by week three, I was starting to see the forest for the trees a little bit more clearly. And I heard myself having this conversation with myself, and it was basically like you can be well rested or you can be successful, but you don't get to do both. So you have to choose. And I was mad. And I was like, no, and I was this dark night of the soul, and I could just feel I was back and forth and back and forth. And then at some point I was like, wait, maybe I just need to make up some different rules. Yes, it's actually true. If I'm playing by this rule book that I received from all of these family patriarchy capitalism, if I'm playing by this rule book that I received from these outside systems, it is true. I will have to choose between being rested and successful. If I throw out that rule book entirely and create my own rule book, like your inner rebel, perhaps? The inner rebel, she is there and she was like, Hey, yes, maybe you can find a way to be deeply rested and wildly successful. Maybe those two things are meant to live together. That was the beginning of book two of my life, right? It was like this, oh, I have to throw away everything and I have to find another way. And that's hard work. And we could have hours of conversation about like what does that mean and how do we do that? But I boil it down to its rawest form. It is about first and foremost being painfully honest with yourself about what you actually need. How much rest do you need? How much money do you need? What do you want your days to look like? How much creativity do you need? How much connection do you need? You have to strip yourself down so bare. And you have to like if your soul say, what do I actually need? And as you discover the answer to those questions, then the path to being rested and wildly successful really is pretty uncomplicated.

SPEAKER_08: 37:42

I think we are so programmed, not just to see the path is either you can rest or you can be successful. But I feel with deep programming that you don't deserve rest until you're lazy. Yeah, until you've earned it, until you've proved yourself in some way. The amount of guilt I see in the people who come to me just claiming that need for rest, just claiming that they need it is so scary for them.

SPEAKER_05: 38:10

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_08: 38:11

Unless I've accomplished something, unless I've done something, unless I've made everybody happy around me. Who am I to take it?

SPEAKER_03: 38:19

Yeah. Yeah, that's constant earning.

SPEAKER_06: 38:21

That for me is a moment of grabbing the edge of your desk, like you're gripping on for life. And you just say, I am opting out. I am opting out of that being true. Because I don't agree. You don't have to opt in to that paradigm.

SPEAKER_03: 38:35

I want to talk about how you said it's not either or. What if there's an and or what if there's another pathway? This is something that comes up so often because we are taught to think it either has to be this or it has to be this. I can't have both. Even giving yourself permission to consider a third alternative, right? I remember my husband is leaving his job and he's like, well, I'm gonna have to be poor and we're gonna have to eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches in order for me to pursue what I want to do. And I'm like, why? Why? Why do we have to be poor just because you want to be happy? Why is it I can either be happy and fulfilled at work? Why is that the paradigm that we're choosing to believe in? And we really worked through that because I was like, I just believe that you can be abundantly happy and successful by whatever terms you want to define that as. And we can live a really lovely life. We don't have to suffer just so that you can be happy. This is bonkers to me, but it's all the time, you know. I'm I'm a mom, and so often with moms, is I can either be a good mom or I can have career aspirations. I can't have both. Just speaking into the power of consider there's another way, consider there's an alternative choice.

SPEAKER_06: 39:44

And remembering that it's not as easy as saying it. You have to say it, and then you have to actually opt out of the systems that don't allow it. And I think this is where I see a lot of people get tangled up. This is where I see a lot of people give up on this journey, is they get to the point where they can say with full empowerment, I can have both. I can have rest and success. I can have motherhood and career ambitions, I can have it all. But then they are still playing the game. They're still playing within the traditional capitalistic system. And you can't actually have both of those things. You can't be liberated and an active participant in the system at the same time. And opting out of the system, I'm still in the very, very early days of doing that myself. And I'm here to tell you, it's hard. Yeah. And like there's a lot of hard decisions that you have to make. There's a lot of judgment that you will receive that you have to sort through. There's a lot of letting go about what you think you need to be happy, but that's where the real work begins. So I don't say this to like freak anyone out. It's first believing in your soul that I can, I can do both, I can be rested and successful. Great. That's step one. And then step two through 7,000, right? Are do the work to figure out what that means for you and just know it's a lifelong process. It's not a box you're gonna check. It is the process that you will be in for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_03: 41:12

I run a mastermind every year and we just had an opening ceremony. And I said my version of that, and I was like, I'm not trying to depress you guys, but you know, you're so right. I've been opting out actively for seven years and various levels of that, and it lives so deeply in my nervous system and the amount of consistent practice that it takes to really it's insane. It's absolutely insane. After I was saying the thing on the call, I was like, who I don't really want to discourage any of you from going for this. But I want to also be really honest that this is a deep commitment that you're making. Moment to moment, every single day of your life, you're gonna fuck it up. It's gonna fall off the rails, you're gonna have to come back. It is a lifelong journey. So I'm really glad that you brought that up, that it's not like I made a deep, deep deconditioning.

SPEAKER_08: 42:07

Yeah. Yeah. I do think it would be helpful to have some maybe real life examples from you of what you did to opt out. I know this is a lot of what I teach too in my work, and I also know it is a battle with myself. And I just went through a period of burnout that Melissa and I have been talking about. And I know the stories that I was looping about there's no way out of this. There's no way I can put any of these things down. And in part it's because I'm actually a single woman and there wasn't anyone around to actually help me. But also, there's people who are who have kids and they have big lives and they have careers and they don't feel they can actually put these things down, and the pressure is mounting, and how can I possibly let go? So, what are some things that you have done? The hard line that you have put in the sand that I am not willing to participate in this, and what are the results that you're seeing from that?

SPEAKER_06: 43:02

Ooh, so many. The first one is a little bit more philosophical and it connects to what you were just sharing, Melissa, about timeline. And it has been the ongoing release of needing things to happen quickly.

SPEAKER_03: 43:20

Oh, it's so hard.

SPEAKER_08: 43:21

Oh, it's so hard. And this is probably I think this is actually beautiful because it's highlighting, I think, both of our stuff, Melissa's stuff and my stuff when we come together. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06: 43:33

And quick tangent people who are being real in the way we're being right now, the deeper and deeper this work goes for me. The more I'm really understanding in my body how isolation is a tool of capitalism, right? It keeps us quiet, it keeps us compliant, it keeps us non-questioning.

SPEAKER_08: 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 43:50

And that part of the liberation of this work that I'm doing within myself is only happening because of community. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 43:59

I'm gonna shimmy for those of you who can't I'm shimmy. I'm gonna shimmy on that shimmy for the screen on the it's so true. Cause some people like if I can just figure this out on my own, I'm well.

SPEAKER_06: 44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 44:09

No.

SPEAKER_06: 44:09

No, it's it it really feels like a coming back to like a more ancient time when women are in circle and community is in circle. Anyways, my whole body just got to this box. Yeah, I love that. I feel like that's a whole other conversation. But I just want to like plant that seed for anybody listening. That if you finish this episode and you don't have two or three people immediately that you want to share it with and be in conversation, then find those people because that is the healing. Like the healing happens in community. Yes. Um, snaps. Let's just snap. We're gonna snap, we're gonna ship you weird. Yeah, strange ways. Oh so letting go of things need to happen quickly. And for me, this is this most often manifests around business, right? I am a business owner, I am a business coach, I'm helping other people with their businesses. There's a lot of talk about businesses in my world, and there's a lot of thinking about business. And and I'm so deep right now in my own work around removing myself from business culture, because business culture is like the epitome of capitalism, right? It's make seven figures in the next seven months, and you know, here's all these like persuasive, manipulative strategies you should use to make people give you money and sales and more and more and more. And it's very intense and it's everywhere. And the conditioning is if you're not growing year after year, if you're not making as much money as you possibly can, you're not succeeding. And that's gets real noisy up here in the brain. So, what I know to be true, and what you were saying, Melissa, what I say to the people who are in my communities, I'm opting out of capitalism, I'm opting out of urgency. And when we're opting out, we have to choose patience and persistence. Those are the two words that I hold on to. Every, I repeat those words to myself every day as a business owner. You are here to bring your soul's purpose into the world. And you are going to be wildly successful in doing that, but it's gonna be slow. And you need to be patient and you need to be persistent. And someone will so one of my clients, I just have to give her a shout out. Their name's Dina Omar.

SPEAKER_08: 46:25

Oh, Dina, I love Dina.

SPEAKER_06: 46:27

Oh, yeah, you met Dina. Dina is an anti-oppression consultant, she's also a therapist, and I've learned so much from Dina, a ton of gratitude to them. But I was having this conversation with Dina recently about patience and persistence in going slowly. And she said, systems of oppression don't go slow because it doesn't get them what they want. Of course, it doesn't work for them, right? Like the only strategy for us, if we're trying to opt out of that system, is to go really slowly and to remember. Because I think what happens is when I'm going slowly, the thoughts that can show up for me are you should be making more money by now. You should have more staff by now, you should have more clients by now, you should have a bigger audience by now. Sure, that would be true if I was playing in this other system, but I'm not. So I have to accept and embrace that this is going to unfold slowly and that patience and persistence and introspection are the ingredients for my success.

SPEAKER_03: 47:28

Oh, thank you for saying all of that. I was in corporate medical device sales for 15 years. I wasn't in medical device sales for 15 years, but I was in corporate. Sorry for your loss. High intense, right? And it in a capitalistic society, we're always tracking growth, right? Year over year growth. Yep. So you'd get your quota, and your quota would rate if you did well, then you'd basically hurt yourself because you'd have a higher quota the next year. So what was happening is you'd be at the top of the food chain and then they'd raise your quota, and then it'd be so much harder to get to that that you'd drop down. I am really navigating the story. And it's a big part of what I'm practicing is building a soul business and building in a more sacred way and really trusting that the path is revealing itself and that it doesn't have to be quick. I would be top 10% rep, top one to 10% in a year or two. So I got really good at I'm gonna be at the top so fast. I'm gonna be at the top so fast. I'm gonna get a new job and I'm gonna be at the top again, so fast for decades. So my body is like, you know how to be at the top so fast. Why aren't you at the top? And whatever the fuck at the top is, whatever that even means when you're not in a traditional system, but it's defined by traditional success, by a certain monetary goal, all the things you called out, like the followers, the clients, the money, the da-da-da-da-da. And it is so deeply uncomfortable to allow time and patience and alignment to be present when you are growing a business that feels remarkably different than anything that you have ever felt in your entire life. Talking about this is so important because people have a real desire to have these soul-based businesses. They want more meaning, they want more purpose, they want to do things differently. And rewiring that piece, it is big, big, big work.

SPEAKER_08: 49:18

I've been thinking a lot over the last few years as I've been healing the difference between ambition and aspiration. And ambition, I often see ambition is actually rooted in a trauma or in a need to prove yourself, in a need to get external validation. It comes from a 13-year-old who is getting awarded the best at everything award and goes, I can never let anybody down, whatever it is. The quality of aspiration to me is to become the most full, whole, self-realized self that we can be, and to be of service in the greatest way that we can be, whatever that means to you, while not compromising your integrity, not compromising your needs and your soul. You were talking, Melissa, yesterday with me about this holistic success, right? In all areas of holistic excellence.

SPEAKER_03: 50:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08: 50:16

Holistic excellence. That if you don't get results by a particular timeline, you haven't failed because it's all about the journey. And when you're actually when you're actually on that journey, the seed of intention that you set at the start of a journey is what grows. And if the seed is around needing to prove yourself, needing to be successful, needing whatever it is in the eyes of other people, then you will build it and you will have it. And then eventually, if you actually want to live an aligned life, that's gonna crumble down. And in order to start building from the intention to feel whole in myself and in love with my life and expressed in my passions. And the only validation I need is within myself that I feel good every day waking up and my my life feels authentic. Means that we have to root out those programs and that takes time. It means that you have to be intentional every stage that you're at. Is this really aligned? Is this really who I am? Is this really what I want to grow? Takes so much time in the early days, but then think of how strong that tree becomes when the trunk of the tree becomes so solid, and then it starts to move really quickly after that.

SPEAKER_06: 51:40

I just grabbed a post-it note and wrote ambition versus aspiration. I was like, she's totally writing that down. Totally wrote that down. Thank you so much for sharing that, Jessica. That really resonates. And it reminds me of something that I heard from a mutual friend, the person who introduced Jessica and I, her name is B. She said to me last week, we were talking about this idea of faking it until you make it. I love this conversation. You are like, fake it till you make it. You're here on the ladder and you want to be here, you want to be up here on the ladder. So you just fake it till you make it and you'll get there. And she said, What if instead of faking it until we make it, which feels extractive and it feels forced, right? And the way that this these systems condition us to be. What if instead of that we did be it until you see it? Ooh. And so that, so anyway, when you said ambition versus aspiration, I was like, oh, ambition is the fake it till you make it. Yeah. Aspiration is the be it until you see it. I love that song. Be it until you see it.

SPEAKER_03: 52:42

Yes. Because it's holding the frequency now without having to have the thing. That has been such a big piece of the work, especially the last year of my life. How do we be her now?

SPEAKER_06: 52:53

Because we are. You are.

SPEAKER_03: 52:55

I know.

SPEAKER_06: 52:56

Like that's the great secret. I know. Listen, it's we are here now. Like I am me now. So maybe the other piece of how do we opt out? We opt out by stepping away from external messages about who we are or who we need to be. And we really begin developing and cultivating a deep sense of self-trust. Right. Because when you're leading with self-trust deep in your bones, I have everything I need within me right now to bring my aspiration to life. Yeah. Deep self-trust for me lives in my chest and everything else lives in my head. So when I'm in ambition and when I'm in conditioning and programming, it's all up here in the head. What can I do? What's the roadmap? What's the plan? Okay, how long is it going to take? I'm sure you hear this from your coaching clients all the time, Melissa. It's the question that I have the hardest time with at this point in my journey. When people are like, well, how long is it going to take? Two months, three months? And I'm like, ooh, that's coming from up here in the noggin. And if we can just pull you down into your body, we suddenly realize that question doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02: 54:07

Oh, knocking my microphone over. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_06: 54:11

That would be my second lesson about like, what is it that I'm doing to opt out? It's becoming really aware of when external messages are telling me who I am and what I need to do next. It's fucking terrifying to release. So scary. Because what if, and here are the thoughts that come up for me and my clients all the time, because what if I let go of that and I can't pay my rent? Yeah. What if I let go of that and I can't afford groceries? What if I let go of that and fill in the blank some catastrophic scenario? And it takes this leap of faith to be like, okay, I'm gonna trust that deep within myself, there is everything that I need and I will be fine. Yeah. And it's scary. And it's true.

SPEAKER_03: 54:56

It's so scary. Yeah, we had a big conversation yesterday about the trust fall. And one of my clients had quit her corporate job, and she's like, I honestly do not know what is going to happen, but I knew I couldn't do that anymore. I knew how I wanted to feel. And she's like just so deep in the trust fall. And another one that she's like, I looked at my bank account and I was wanting to say no to this person because it felt so misaligned to take on their work in her new firm. And she said no anyway. And they came back and they offered her just the part that she wanted to do for the same amount of money. So less work, a consistent retainer. And she's like, I had to trust so deeply in my no. I love these examples because I think that's all part of it is we need we need proof. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 55:42

Yeah. And we do, you're so right. We do need proof. So I think that's a great reminder of baby steps. You don't have to jump off the deep end if you're not ready to jump off the deep end. If you need proof, start small. And I would say that the only reason the three of us are sitting here having this conversation is because we've been taking baby steps around deprogramming and leaning into deep self-trust for years and years and years. So again, this journey is the rest of your life. And like meet yourself where you're at. And there's a concept in the therapy world called the window of tolerance. I don't know if you've heard of this idea before, but the idea is that you can imagine what your nervous system can handle as a window. Right. And right in the middle is divine peace. You know, like, ah, you're like totally fine and you feel great. And then as you start moving towards the edges of this window, there's more discomfort, there's more fear, there's more sadness, there's more pain, there's more fill in the blank. And there comes a point where you move outside of your window, and that's actually when your body goes into dysregulation. And we should never be in dysregulation. You can't heal in dysregulation. So we have to learn how to stay within our window of tolerance so that you're stretching, but you're not injuring, kind of like when you're exercising, right? You want to stretch yourself, you want to challenge yourself.

SPEAKER_07: 57:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 57:01

But you don't want to step into injury. Okay. It's like figure out what that feels like in your body so that when you're doing this work of opting out, of developing self-trust, you know when you're in the stretch, and then you know when to stop before you move into the injury. Yeah. It's really important learning as you're doing this work.

SPEAKER_08: 57:21

It goes back to going slow. And it's in the slowness that you actually listen to yourself. And it's in the listening to yourself that you cultivate that self-trust.

SPEAKER_06: 57:32

And be kind when you mess up. I think Melissa said that earlier. Be kind when you get it wrong. Because you will every day.

SPEAKER_03: 57:38

Absolutely will. Yeah. Just to reiterate the baby steps because it is, you hear these stories of like, this person did this big thing because of five years of tiny things that they did to be able to do the big thing, to be able to be in the trust fall at such a massive level. It's years of work of those micro steps of okay, this is safe.

SPEAKER_08: 57:56

I don't think any of it is wrong either. None of it is wrong. It's just learning.

SPEAKER_06: 57:59

It's all stepping stones. I try to think of every single thing as a stepping stone because I find that my perfectionistic self-critical voice is really quick to be like, you wasted time. Oh, you wasted time. Or what was that for? Oh, what a waste of time, you know, or you made a mistake. Oh, shame on you. Like you did the wrong thing. It's very dichotomous. It's you're right or you're wrong. You're good or you're bad. And when I catch myself doing that, I try just to breathe and be like, no, it was just a stepping stone paving the way to where you're meant to be. And trust that. Nothing is wrong. There is no such thing as a mistake. This is something I'm really trying to learn in my own body. There is no such thing as a mistake. There's no such thing as a wrong choice. And when I have days where I'm really in belief around that, it's just amazing how much better I feel and how there are no mistakes.

SPEAKER_03: 58:51

It's so much more. My body feels like it just feels lighter. It feels breathe. Yeah. It's like an exhale. It's like freedom and flow. And when you talk about trust, when you know that no matter what you choose, it's not there's no mistake, it's not wrong. So you can stop overanalyzing so much and listen to what you need to be doing and trust that. But it is an iterative process for sure. It is an iterative process.

SPEAKER_06: 59:19

Everything is an iterative process.

SPEAKER_08: 59:21

Perfectionists like me, and I think both of us have had some dabbling in perfectionism. I had always seen growth as like I couldn't be imperfect about my growth, right? I had to be perfect in my growth. I genuinely would shame myself for any misstep. And that is actually not how growth works. That there is a trial and error process, there is experimentation, the creative process of life is messy and there is no right or wrong, really. And we just get to keep feeling in deeper and deeper into what works for us. Yeah. So every day you try a new thing. Does this feel good? Does this work? If it doesn't work, try a new thing tomorrow. Until it starts to feel aligned. Letting it be iterative.

SPEAKER_06: 1:00:09

Exactly. Letting that be the purpose.

SPEAKER_08: 1:00:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:00:13

I'm not a painter, but I imagine it's similar to when you're painting. But you have to like put it on the canvas before you know if it works or it doesn't work. And if you put it on the canvas and then you're like, that was wrong. Oh, I gotta throw the canvas away and buy a new canvas. Like, God, like the creative process for it. We're gonna be a painter in the world.

SPEAKER_08: 1:00:29

Miserable.

SPEAKER_06: 1:00:30

Yeah, I'm done. It's like, no, let every decision, every experiment be a splash of paint on to the canvas. And then leaning into deep self-trust is if I keep doing that, I'm gonna create a masterpiece. Exactly. It's feeling like a much more beautiful way to live my life.

SPEAKER_08: 1:00:49

I know you've spoken to this a lot, but you describe yourself as a highly sensitive person. You are an introvert. You are also in, well, maybe we can use aspirational rather than ambitious now. But you are also a type A personality as well. And you do have a lot of life force and want to accomplish a lot. So in this very loud, aggressive, capitalistic world, how does someone like you, how does someone who is highly sensitive, who is introverted, who maybe doesn't like to market themselves, who maybe doesn't have that kind of spirit that they tell you that you need to have to hit targets and goals and be aggressive about your career, how do you suggest they take that next step to putting their dream out into the world without compromising in their authenticity and integrity in that respect?

SPEAKER_06: 1:01:37

I think it's about really connecting to what you want to say and why you want to say it. This is an opportunity, an invitation to opt out. Because if you go into the work saying, okay, I'm gonna do this because I want to make$100,000 this year, or I'm gonna do this because insert whatever someone else told you is the reason you should be doing this, wrong path. Yeah. If you can instead really connect to who am I? Who am I? And there's no such thing as a complete answer to that question. Who am I right now? How do I want to be expressed? What do I want to say? Who do I want to say it to? And you connect to that, all of a sudden, it's not a job that needs to be done, it's not a box that needs to be checked, it is a pull into purpose. So for example, I didn't wake up this morning and go, okay, today I have to do a podcast interview so that I can promote my business, and then I have to do three coaching calls because people have paid me for those calls, and then I have to check these five boxes so that tomorrow I can move on to step two. No, often I wake up that way and it feels terrible and I have to catch myself and I'm at it. When I woke up this morning, I sat in silence for 30 minutes, had a little ritual and said, Wow, today you get to have a conversation with Jessica and Melissa about who you are. What a gift. And then after that, you get to sit with three people who have chosen to work with you and you get to witness them and to support them on their journey. How wonderful. And then for the rest of the day, there's things to do, but you get to check in and decide what gets to be done today. That coming into why am I doing this? I often say this to my clients. Being a business owner is not easy. You gotta really know why you're doing it. Way easier to have a nine to five. Why are you doing this? And then if you can come back to why I'm doing this and you can really see everything that needs to be done as a gift, as an opportunity to share and to be in alignment with yourself, that's it. For that's the magic.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:53

Yeah, it's so magical. I often say, like, remember that version of you, or if you have a child when they're in that phase of where they ask you why 7,000 times a day, it's a good person to embody inside of yourself. Oh my God. I love that.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:07

I love that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:07

Why? Why?

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:08

Why am I doing this? Why? Is this mine to do? Why am I doing that? Why am I having this call? Do I have to have this call today? Why? Thank you for that, Melissa. Never thought about that. I've only ever heard of the why. Is this so annoying? In fact, I was just on a flight a couple of days ago, and there was a little girl behind me, and she was so inquisitive and so curious. And I remember thinking, I was touched by her curiosity. I was touched. I even texted my husband, wasn't on the flight with me, and I texted him and I was like, Oh my God, there's this little girl behind me, and she's so curious. And I think what was beautiful about it is she was with her dad. He was so inviting of the curiosity. And a third person came and sat in their row. And immediately the little girl was like, What's your name? Where are you going? What's in your bag? I love your socks. Why'd you choose those socks? And the dad kind of laughed and he said to the lady, He said, She has a lot of questions and we're working on boundaries. So you can let her know if you want her to keep asking or if you want her to stop. And the delight, I could just hear the delight in that woman's voice. I'm gonna really take that away with me, Melissa. That let's cherish the little girl inside of us who's like, why, why, why, why? And she knows some shit that we don't know, and she has a lot to teach us if we're willing to listen. Yes, absolutely for that. Thank you, Megan. Thank you for being here. This is wonderful. Oh my gosh, this has been my, it's been such a delight. And I just wish for everyone listening that you are curating people in your life with whom you can have these kinds of conversations because it is just the ultimate pleasure.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:40

These conversations are the most important conversations in business. Totally agree. And then the ones we never have. The ones we never have. And then when people think it's so much about the results and how are you doing this, and it's more of the same thing when you're like really honing in on just the side of business that I think we are accustomed to talking about. But when we talk about like who are you being inside of your business? Why are you making these choices inside of your business? How do you honor yourself inside of your business? That's the conversation that I want to have all day. I do have it all day every day. That's the one I'm interested in. And that's that's why we have this podcast, right? It's like there are there is that part of me that's like, I wish you would have like drilled into their business more. But then also I'm like, but really? Should we think so?

SPEAKER_06: 1:06:19

Yeah, no, I totally agree. This is it. This is it. This is it.

SPEAKER_08: 1:06:31

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