Kelly Wilson and the Evil that Gilmer, Texas Mistook for the Truth

In 1992, seventeen year old Kelly Wilson vanished in Gilmer, Texas. A short walk from a video store to her car became one of the most debated missing person cases in Texas history. What should have been a focused, evidence driven investigation was quickly consumed by the national Satanic Panic that overtook the early nineties. Gilmer followed the same pattern seen in McMartin, Kern County, and the West Memphis Three. Fear replaced facts. Rumor replaced procedure. And Kelly’s case fell into the same trap that swallowed so many investigations during the Satanic Panic era.

In this episode we retrace Kelly Wilson’s last known steps, the slashed tire, the missing keys, and the early suspects who should have remained at the center of the case. We examine how the entire investigation veered into claims of ritual abuse when the Kerr family CPS probe began producing pressured child testimony that expanded only after repeated, leading interviews. These accusations mirrored every hallmark of the Satanic Panic movement. No physical evidence. No forensic support. No verified ritual activity. Only fear, group reinforcement, and stories that grew bigger every time a child was pushed for more.

Using criminal profiling, forensic standards, and lessons taken from documented Satanic Panic cases, we outline the scenario that best fits the facts. The Texas Attorney General later confirmed what the FBI had been saying for years. Real ritual crime leaves clear signatures. Gilmer had none. What it had were misidentified bones, contaminated interviews, and a case that lost its direction the moment panic replaced logic.

If you follow true crime, Satanic Panic history, missing person investigations, or the impact of moral hysteria on criminal justice, this episode brings clarity to one of the most misunderstood cases of the early nineties.

For links, case notes, and official show merch, visit paulgnewton.com

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Transcript

The Disappearance Of Kelly Wilson

Intro Music 0:02

I need to know everything, who in the what in the where I need everything. Trust me, I hear what you're saying, but I like this knew what you're telling me. I'm curious, George. I hop in the porch is five and a horse.

Paul G 0:13

I'm ready for So in the winter of nineteen ninety-two in Gilmer, Texas, at the info they learned just how fast a quiet town can be can lose its mind, basically. A girl vanished, Kelly Day Wilson, she's 17, barely off of work, hallway between a doorway halfway, sorry, between a doorway and a parking lot. I'm not reading this. When the world squallowed her hole, with no struggle, no noise, no witnesses, just a clean disappearance pulled off by someone who understood timing darkness just a little too well. Um, you know, this really should have been a simple crime. Follow the routine, follow the suspects, follow the truth. But Gilmer never made it that far because this was right in the middle of the satanic panic. Uh, and it was already smoldering across the country. It'd been there for it's at the almost the very end of the satanic panic, waiting for it. It's just setting it on fire. And when they f and when it found Gilmer, though, it didn't need proof, it only needed fear because that's the kind that settles into a community's bones and makes the shadows look like enemies. Bad social workers, a scared sheriff, and a family that was odd took all the attention away and left this girl completely uh what would you say unanswered in her you know legal legally sense? I don't want to say vengeance, but maybe vengeance. I don't know, justice. Justice was never served. Texas Attorney General had to step in, and it's crazy. This whole thing is absolutely insane.

Andrea 2:10

Yeah, I would say that when you like had me read it, I remember going, what does satanic panic have anything to do with this woman's disappearance? I mean, I was kind of like, What where where is the linkage of that? Where did that come from?

Paul G 2:22

Well, well, when we were doing the re you were trying doing the research on it, you kept saying, I keep seeing this article come up about these kids being abused. Yeah, yeah. What does it have to do with this woman getting kidnapped?

Andrea 2:34

Yeah, exactly. I kept thinking, I don't understand where's the link, where where do these two things come together? You know, why are they linked? Because they're two totally separate things.

Paul G 2:42

Yeah. But it wasn't separate, was it?

Andrea 2:45

No.

Paul G 2:46

It's it's absolutely insane. So I guess this is what happened to the girl Kelly Wilson. Right?

Andrea 2:57

What in basically she's just like any other 17-year-old teenage girl that works at a video store member blockbuster in the day.

Paul G 3:04

Yeah, but it was called something else.

Andrea 3:06

Videoland. Video land. Videoland. And basically she's like doing her job. She's basically like, you know, getting ready to, you know, close and everything.

Paul G 3:15

She's taking the deposit.

Andrea 3:16

Yeah, taking the deposit, which I think is pretty awesome.

Paul G 3:18

That means she was a trusted employee.

Andrea 3:20

Yeah, exactly. They didn't let just any old seventh-year-old do that. Basically, she's doing that. Her boss is like, okay, I'll see you in the morning. You're gonna, you know, open, correct? And you're like, good night, good night.

Paul G 3:29

And then no, it was North Texas Video at 8 30 p.m.

Andrea 3:33

Oh, North Texas Video for some reason Texas video.

Paul G 3:35

I guess. Video land. You're just yeah, you just astronaut in Funland kind of thing going on.

Andrea 3:40

I guess maybe. I don't know. I don't know. You read one thing, hey, I can't help it. I got trifocals, man. It's called you gotta be like, you know.

Paul G 3:48

Stop.

Andrea 3:48

I have shitty eyes. Excuse my language. Sorry. But anyways, this poor girl though, she like they show her on camera, correct, what little bit of camera back in '92 we had actually making the deposit, correct?

Paul G 4:03

Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, somebody made the deposit because they couldn't tell by the video who it was.

Andrea 4:09

That's true. That's true. I do remember that.

Paul G 4:12

Um, and then uh they her they found her car uh at the video store though.

Andrea 4:19

Yeah.

Paul G 4:19

So I don't know, she didn't make the deposit. Somebody else did.

Andrea 4:23

Was it at the video store or was it somewhere else?

Paul G 4:25

It was at the video store.

Andrea 4:26

Was it really?

Paul G 4:27

Where she always parked it. Uh her purse and all her personal belongings are in there.

Andrea 4:32

Yes.

Paul G 4:33

But not her keys.

Andrea 4:34

Yeah, she had like her keys were gone, she had a purse inside. No teenage, 17-year-old girl or a woman is gonna leave without their purse unless they're forced. I mean, your money, your whole life is in there.

Paul G 4:44

Leaving your phone in the car.

Andrea 4:45

Yeah, yeah. Ah, my fifteen hundred dollar phone. Exactly.

Paul G 4:49

Yeah.

Andrea 4:49

You know, and so and she got a slash tire.

Paul G 4:52

Yeah. And and that didn't help at all.

Andrea 4:55

No.

Paul G 4:56

No. Um, she she had a uh she did kind of break up with her boyfriend or was going to or having boyfriend troubles. They do know that, but it's remains to be seen because that dude died of cancer.

Andrea 5:11

Yeah, yeah. But every 17-year-old female at one point in their time has boyfriend or boy troubles. That's just part of the age.

Paul G 5:17

Yeah. Um, it's crazy because they got to the scene and they did their due diligence, I guess. There was no forensic stuff back then. I mean, it's come on.

Andrea 5:26

They had fingerprints.

Paul G 5:27

Well, that's fingerprints, but they didn't she everybody touched her car. Everybody's probably hanging out with her.

Andrea 5:33

But they still should have done something, in my opinion. Still, I would think. I mean, still I would think that that would be the first thing is let's get out the fingerprint thing and let's swap, you know, let's dust dust it.

Paul G 5:41

Yeah, the first thing they wanted to do is find that fingerprint or fingerprint, got me saying it now. They wanted to find that uh the the the kid who slashed the tire, whoever slashed the tire. That's the first thing they wanted to do.

Andrea 5:55

Well, yeah, you want to figure out okay, you think, okay, slash tire, you're making this lady vulnerable. That's probably gonna be your suspect or person of interest highly in this case, I would think. But they didn't go anywhere with it, correct?

Paul G 6:08

Well, they found him.

Andrea 6:10

Yeah, they found him.

Paul G 6:11

And you know, they interrogate him, talk to him, and it turns out that he had slashed other people's tires. Um in this is something he thought was funny.

Andrea 6:20

Yeah, he just thought, oh, just go around the it was the same parking lot, correct? The same parking lot he's around town, too. Yeah, just slashing people's tires.

Paul G 6:27

Michael Bibby.

Andrea 6:29

I don't find that funny. If I walked out my tire was slashed, I would be a little bit.

Paul G 6:33

I just spent $900 on your tires for exactly.

Andrea 6:37

I'd be like blinkety blink blink blink.

Paul G 6:40

Uh-huh. Exactly.

Investigation Stalls And Missed Forensics

Andrea 6:42

I would be in trouble for that legally, didn't he, if I remember correctly?

Paul G 6:48

Which he should slap on the wrist.

Andrea 6:50

Yeah, that's not funny.

Paul G 6:52

It's not a felony, it's just mischievous conduct and with damage.

Andrea 6:57

Yeah, but if you think about it nowadays, if somebody was to do that, I wouldn't be surprised if people go after him for the money for the tires much as tires cost.

Paul G 7:04

Yeah, yeah. My tires are what, $280 a piece?

Andrea 7:07

Yeah, I ain't cheap.

Paul G 7:08

Oh, thank you. Uh you know, she had plans for the next day even.

Andrea 7:12

Yeah, wasn't she gonna go to a party or something that night, too?

Paul G 7:14

No one saw her disappear.

Andrea 7:16

It's like she poofed, went into thin air.

Paul G 7:18

She poofed?

Andrea 7:19

Poofed. Poof into thin air.

Paul G 7:20

I do that after I eat a lot of beans.

Andrea 7:22

Oh gosh. Something like that, yeah. Nasty. But I mean, she just like makes. Well, everybody everybody does it.

Paul G 7:31

Yeah, everybody does it.

Andrea 7:32

But you know, I mean, how can you not?

Paul G 7:36

What are you talking about? Skeevy Stoner. Girls don't fart.

Andrea 7:39

Oh, yes, we do.

Paul G 7:40

I've been hitting her with so many Jane Silent Bob references the past few days. She has no idea because she's only seen the movie once.

Andrea 7:47

I've seen the movie once. And I'll look at him and I'll be like, I vaguely remembered that reference. I've slept since then.

Paul G 7:54

They looked in to see if she was runaway or something like that. She's not.

Andrea 7:57

She's not around.

Paul G 7:58

She didn't run away. But they never found her.

Andrea 8:01

Never found her, never did any. She's like, she literally just dis walked out of this video store and disappeared.

Paul G 8:07

Yeah, yeah. And they didn't, I guess they're just really bad at interrogations because they they say they interviewed everybody.

Andrea 8:16

I mean, we everybody wants to believe that and everyone wants to say that. No one wants to be like, yes, I'm in this town of and I messed up.

Paul G 8:24

Yeah. So any and it just went cold.

Andrea 8:27

Yeah, it just went cold.

Paul G 8:28

It's gone. And um at the same time.

Andrea 8:35

Something else was brewing.

Paul G 8:36

Yeah.

Andrea 8:37

Which I'm still mind blown by.

Paul G 8:39

Yeah. Um there was another family called the Kers. K-E-R-R.

Andrea 8:49

And I guess they had um Well, they lived on a compound, yeah.

Paul G 8:53

But they were not they didn't have any money. And there was like a bunch of people living there.

Andrea 8:59

Ten or 17 kids or something like that. Something like that, yeah. Yeah, a lot of children.

Paul G 9:03

Um and so the CPS was investigating them. And this isn't this isn't this is like four years later or something crazy like that. Yeah, this is absolutely insane. And so the CPS they uh came in and they took took the kids out. And there was this one seven-year-old uh that they took out of there because he wasn't getting fat, he wasn't getting bathed. You know.

Andrea 9:27

Yeah, it's child neglect.

Enter The Kerr Family And CPS

Paul G 9:29

Yeah, exactly. Really, and and the abuse was real. They they documented what they were doing to these kids, and they placed him in a foster home.

Andrea 9:41

Did they place all of them or just a few of them?

Paul G 9:44

Well, it doesn't say about the rest of them because they didn't hit the news and they don't talk about foster kids. This is close enough to modern times that those dockets are closed.

Andrea 9:55

Yeah, they're very close. It I mean um in the courtrooms where I do for CASA, you're only people unless you're uh working with, you know, mm CASA or the judge or whatever. It's a closed courtroom. Nobody else is allowed in there except the people that are actually the only reason we know about the seven-year-old is because he was the uh hinge point for everything that had to follow. Yeah, he's the the speaking point that kind of started it all.

Paul G 10:23

Yeah. So the CPS investigators, they had it out for the Kers. Because they couldn't get all I guess they couldn't get all the kids out of there, and they wanted them in jail and split up and and just get the let's get these people out of here.

Andrea 10:37

Which I find that strange, but like I said, a lot of things have changed since this case, and versus now if you got child neglect on one, you got child neglect on all of them.

Paul G 10:45

Well, it's a rural area too in Texas.

Andrea 10:48

They probably don't have enough foster homes.

Paul G 10:50

Well, and they probably don't have any supervision either.

Andrea 10:53

That's true.

Paul G 10:54

Comparatively. Like you would in Dallas. You know, you have ten foster agents or CPS agents and per uh shift leader or whatever you want to call it.

Andrea 11:06

Yeah, I I just I just find that kind of like uh you you take all of them or none.

Paul G 11:11

I mean that's how I look at it, but I don't disagree with that um so they coerced this kid into what what they would do, they took him out to the woods near the current compound. And this one lady, she would grab him like a big bear hug, right? Yeah, and squeeze him and then rub his chest, the side of his chest. I don't know what this means, but that's what she that's what he said that she did to him.

Andrea 11:48

Like therapeutic comforting or something?

Paul G 11:49

Yeah, it was one of those things, because remember, we didn't know anything back then, and my gosh, it's awful. The holding technique, uh physically restraining a child while demanding disclosures. That's what she was doing.

Andrea 12:03

Oh, that is so illegal.

Paul G 12:04

Yeah. And she was asking him, did these people wear masks and did they cut people? Were they murdered? Did they murder people?

Andrea 12:14

Seriously, she's like grooming the kid?

Paul G 12:16

Yeah, she was asking those.

Andrea 12:18

So of course he wants to be let go and hurt maybe stop having his chest rubbed if he's been abused, he'll say whatever she wants.

Paul G 12:25

And it comes to find out that uh she was repeated, she did repeated interviews. Well, see, there's no the problem is he's in foster care now. He doesn't have the legal rights then because he's a witness, not a suspect. And as a witness, your legal rights are different than if you're a suspect.

Andrea 12:48

But I would like to think I mean, I don't know.

Paul G 12:50

In all cases, actually.

Andrea 12:51

I mean, when children come into care now, they're assigned an attorney.

Paul G 12:54

Yeah.

Andrea 12:56

I don't know what it was like.

Paul G 12:57

Probably for this reason.

Andrea 12:58

I mean, I don't know what year did this all this go down?

Paul G 13:02

Uh 1992.

Andrea 13:04

Same year, okay.

Paul G 13:05

When I when I 1994.

Andrea 13:06

Okay, so it's like two years later. Okay, that's right. So I would I don't know the laws and the They were not as good as they are now. Well, take something bad in order for laws to get changed. Let's be realistic.

Paul G 13:16

Well, in this middle of the satanic panic, too. If you're not familiar with that is, we'll get into that in a second.

Andrea 13:21

Oh yes. Uh little kid when all this well, I was in elementary school and then junior high when all this kind of thing took place.

Paul G 13:30

Anyway, um, so they would reward him when he remembered correctly. Right? Remembered correctly.

Andrea 13:38

Oh, this sounds so awful.

Paul G 13:40

And then if he didn't remember correctly, they'd get disapproval or pressure, more pressure from the from the holding technique and emo and emotional coercion. So did the how could you not remember that?

Andrea 13:55

So this social worker just okay, I'm just making a wild guess here. So what this social worker just had it out for these people, probably because more than one, I'm just guessing here. I don't know if this is fire.

Paul G 14:05

And they may have believed they were so the so uh uh Satan worshippers as well.

Coerced Testimony And “Ritual” Claims

Andrea 14:09

So, like more than one incident, obviously, obviously, she's run into these people and making it making a huge stretch, but guess here, guys, we don't know. But in all of she just wants to put this people down, yeah, and she jumps to satanic panic. I mean, she already has abuse on them for abusing the kid. Why add satanic panic on top?

Paul G 14:29

Well, I don't I think she was a victim of satanic panic.

Andrea 14:33

The social worker?

Paul G 14:34

Yeah. Uh maybe she thought, oh my god, these people are out here sacrificing children.

Andrea 14:40

Just because they live on the farm in the woods?

Paul G 14:42

Yeah.

Andrea 14:43

I mean, all horror films start like that.

Paul G 14:46

Yeah, I know. And that's that's what I mean. That's she was probably a victim of it.

Andrea 14:50

I mean, would she think they're like the Texas Chainsaw Mascara family?

Paul G 14:54

Exactly. Um so they moved him into the bass foster home, Mrs. Bass.

Andrea 15:02

Hopefully they were nice to him.

Paul G 15:03

And all the children lived there together, they reinforced each other's new narratives too.

Andrea 15:07

Oh no.

Paul G 15:08

So they talk to each other. I think I remember that. They're just little kids, man.

Andrea 15:12

And is it wasn't it folly-doo whenever you like either do like you do something. Normally you would not do something bad on your own. Yeah, but you miss something. Group thing. Group thing. It was like so. All of them are well folly-a do here, in my opinion. They're all like, oh, you said that? Okay, okay. I don't remember that, but you did. Okay. And they're all siblings and they want to stick together, and yeah, they come from such trauma of like neglect and well, the social workers they lit a fire under Bass. Oh no.

Paul G 15:41

So Bass also fed him information about satanic panic and what they thought people did.

Andrea 15:50

Oh, that so you're just putting all these ideas in this kid's head. He's seven. He's seven, so he's gonna repeat it.

Paul G 15:56

What's up, penis? Seven.

Andrea 15:58

He's just gonna say whatever these thinks I'm safe now, these are nice people. Well, they say my mom and dad did it, so I'm just gonna repeat it because I'm finally safe. This poor child. I mean, he's messed up for life without good therapy. I mean poor kid.

Paul G 16:15

Yeah, so they took him out to a field and they showed him it had him show them where human bones were.

Andrea 16:21

Did they actually dig were they human?

Paul G 16:24

Well they thought they were.

Andrea 16:27

Oh thought and they believed in.

Paul G 16:30

And then sent it off to the factory or to the forensic lab and came back, no, those are animal bones, those are not human.

Andrea 16:37

Oh no.

Paul G 16:38

Yeah. So for oh it took what it two years, a year and a half for them to do that test. Back then it wasn't fast. Like now we can just boom, done.

Andrea 16:49

Yeah, that's true.

Paul G 16:50

Pull the DNA off of it.

Andrea 16:51

Pull the DNA or take it to forensics lab, they'd be like, no, that's a cow hip, not a human.

Paul G 16:56

Was blood on a shovel?

Andrea 16:57

Oh, that's not good either.

Paul G 16:58

I said this is and it wasn't linked to Kelly. Wrong blood type or something. I don't know. They didn't they didn't release a lot of these details. Um and it just went downhill downhill from there. Uh he vent they eventually claimed that all this was happening, and then the sheriff got a hold of it.

Andrea 17:25

Oh, of course.

Paul G 17:25

And it just went off the rails.

Andrea 17:28

So he finds out, like, hey, the social worker gets this kid saying that they're out there killing people. I wonder if that's Kelly's killer.

Paul G 17:37

Yep. And he he knew Kelly. They he he he knew her in the family.

Andrea 17:44

Well, probably small town.

Paul G 17:45

They probably kind of idiots out on the internet that say that they were dating, but I doubt that very much.

Andrea 17:51

You know, small town Texas, you know, small town Texas in the 90s, like small towns around here in Arkansas, people tend to kind of know each other in a roundabout way.

Paul G 18:01

Yeah.

Andrea 18:02

Or know of each other, not necessarily like closely.

Paul G 18:06

2,000 people in the county.

Andrea 18:07

Oh, yeah. They're tight-knit.

Paul G 18:09

At the time, now it's different, of course, because it's what 40 years, 30 years ago now.

Andrea 18:14

Yeah, everything has expanded and gotten bigger.

Paul G 18:16

Exactly. Uh Connie Martin, uh Ann Gore, who was a CPS worker. Um Debbie Minshew was a also a CPS worker. I mean, all these people. And then here's the thing. Get this. The CPS people, guess what they brought in?

Andrea 18:35

Oh no, what did they bring in?

Paul G 18:36

They brought in paranormal experts.

Andrea 18:38

What?

Paul G 18:39

Yes.

Andrea 18:40

What does paranormal experts got anything to do with anything?

Paul G 18:43

This person was a paranormal expert and a Brooks fleg. Flegue. Also an occult uh enthusiast.

Andrea 18:52

Okay, occult enthusiast is people probably someone who likes to read about it. It's curious.

Paul G 18:58

Yeah.

Andrea 18:59

That doesn't make you an expert.

Paul G 19:01

And the sheriff and the pr county prosecutor, they all oh man. They all got into it. And the Bass family didn't help. You know what I mean?

Andrea 19:13

Well they're probably mad and staunch, uh angry at the county for taking their kids. So they're probably gonna be.

Paul G 19:20

I mean the cur came up.

Andrea 19:21

Yeah, currently, sorry. They're probably gonna be showing their butts. I mean, and I mean they're not uh they're probably they're probably not not helping their situation either.

Paul G 19:30

Yeah. Uh you know, they even got the FBI down there. I don't know what happened with that. Um absolutely insane.

Andrea 19:38

Did they coach this kid to be like, hey, did you know this girl? Yeah, where are her bones? Yeah.

Paul G 19:43

Yeah, yeah. They said they watched him kill her.

Andrea 19:46

Really? Yeah. So they had to fed him the name. Um the boy, the name. It's a boy, correct?

Paul G 19:50

Well, he didn't know, he just knew what she looked like because they probably showed him a picture.

Andrea 19:55

Yeah, she's a beautiful blonde. We'll post her picture if we can. She's a beautiful girl.

Paul G 20:00

Um it's absolutely insane. I mean, so they what they've done at this point is completely ignored all the evidence.

Andrea 20:10

Yeah, they probably didn't take any evidence, probably like we're I wonder, I'm just this makes me so mad because it's not it's not fair to the victim here that you're just like lazy police work and want to just instantly blame it on somebody else and don't actually link it correctly.

Paul G 20:26

Yeah.

Andrea 20:27

I mean no wonder this is an unsolved case.

Paul G 20:31

Yeah, they completely botched this. 100%. Uh the kid told them there was bodies buried there, blood soaked tools, using rituals, burned remains, things like that.

Andrea 20:43

And they found none of this.

Paul G 20:44

Nothing, nothing existed except for a bunch of animals, because they're probably having to raise their own food because they're poor.

Andrea 20:50

Yeah, yeah. So the investor didn't go, mmm, I don't think this is linked. If you have no evidence, how I don't get it.

Paul G 21:00

And on top of that, this Sergeant James York Brown, who went from being the investigator in the Kelly case, was now turned into. He was now turned into a player, someone who helped kill her.

Andrea 21:17

What?

Paul G 21:18

They did that too.

Andrea 21:20

Who did that?

Paul G 21:20

This is Salem witch trials all over again.

Andrea 21:22

Yeah, they're just gonna like uh kind of poke at whatever they think's gonna stick. So the investigator did it. So uh let's just let's just double.

Paul G 21:34

Yeah, they got down to it. I mean, this is all in the this is all in the court records. The the CPS ladies and the bass lady did this.

Andrea 21:40

So they said it was the investigator that did it.

Paul G 21:42

No, yeah, yeah, yeah. They turned on him.

Andrea 21:44

So I guess we can't stick it on the family that they think we think is satanic. So we're gonna stick it on the guy that the the cop?

Paul G 21:50

Yeah, yeah. Uh this is like trial, they actually got the kid to say that he was there too.

Andrea 21:59

And how much coaching did you have to do to this kid? If you say this, I'll give you some candy. I mean, really, what did you have to do?

Paul G 22:06

Yeah. And and again, the rights of that child are much different because it's it the child is a witness, not a parti not a you know, not a participant.

Andrea 22:17

This poor kid now as an adulthead, he probably doesn't know what happened to him.

Paul G 22:21

He does. He's he's got a whole book out there.

Andrea 22:23

Oh, does he really stuff like that?

Paul G 22:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea 22:25

Oh, that'd be interesting to get a hold of. I probably would get halfway through it and get frustrated mad reading it. I mean, little kids can't, they're gonna this is why you have like certain people that are trained to interview children.

Paul G 22:38

Yes.

Andrea 22:38

Because they You can lead them so far astray because they just want to please you because they're finally out of their bad environment. They'll probably say anything not to go back.

Paul G 22:47

Yeah, and the location changed like three times.

Andrea 22:50

Isn't that enough of a red flag to go this doesn't work?

Paul G 22:52

Exactly.

Andrea 22:53

Uh we're talking about this like so many years later from like a totally different perspective, but well, I think the biggest thing here, and I'm trying to get to my notes on it.

Satanic Panic: History And Case Parallels

Paul G 23:03

I got I I got a 42-page book on this thing. Um, and what I really wanted to do is get into the satanic panic that caused all this.

Andrea 23:15

So, should we talk about that?

Paul G 23:16

Yeah. You know a little bit about it, right?

Andrea 23:19

Yeah, all and no, it started from a book that a woman supposedly ah, what's the name of the book?

Paul G 23:26

Oh man. Uh I haven't got to my bottom of my notes.

Andrea 23:29

Basically, it's like a woman uh had these memories. I went to a therapist and they had all these oppressed memories of things in the past, and she kept saying that she was a victim of watching these type of occult rituals when she was a child. And so she wrote a book about it and they went all over her all the talk shows probably back then. What Sally Jess and Raphael and all of them, she was everywhere promoting her book.

Paul G 23:52

And I was crawling, I was just I I I I saw some of this stuff and I was just rolling my eyes all the time. You people are idiots.

Andrea 23:58

And that affected other cases like the West Memphis 3.

Paul G 24:01

Oh, yeah.

Andrea 24:02

That's a prime example of people like you know, and it's another it's another Arkansas case.

Paul G 24:06

The McMartin preschool was the big one. Yes. Um, it was it's it's it's the considered the epicenter of the satanic panic.

Andrea 24:14

Uh more so than the book.

Paul G 24:15

Oh yeah. Sparked by a single accusation from a mentally unstable parent.

Andrea 24:20

Who accused someone of touching their child within the daycare work? Wasn't it like a couple, like a man and woman, and they own this daycare for like for years, if I remember correctly.

Paul G 24:28

Yeah.

Andrea 24:29

And like everybody started accusing, like, I think the husband for a while, correct?

Paul G 24:33

Yeah.

Andrea 24:33

And then they turned it on the wife too, right?

Paul G 24:36

Yes. And it took seven years to to to litigate this.

Andrea 24:39

Seven years.

Paul G 24:40

Of their it's in the paper every day. Satan's worshippers now accused of molesting or touching children in their daycare.

Andrea 24:48

Yeah. And they're forever, nothing happened. It was proving that nothing happened, correct?

Paul G 24:53

Correct. Correct. Nothing ever happened. Uh the FBI had a whole report on it that says it's a satanic panic that was based on nothing.

Andrea 25:01

But these poor, this these people can never go back to doing daycare ever again.

Paul G 25:06

No, probably not.

Andrea 25:07

And they probably, I would if this was me, and I was getting accused of that, even though I was acquitted and didn't do anything, I would feel like I had to move.

Paul G 25:15

Yeah.

Andrea 25:16

You know, and they're all over it came nationwide, correct?

Paul G 25:19

Yes. Worldwide, actually.

Andrea 25:21

Really?

Paul G 25:22

Yeah, it it even jumped countries.

Andrea 25:24

Oh wow.

Paul G 25:25

Crazy. Kern County sex ring case. Uh, they somebody up in uh Oregon, I believe it is, uh, claimed that there was a sex ring, and they convicted there's a whole documentary on Netflix on this.

Andrea 25:38

Really? Okay.

Paul G 25:39

They convicted 36 people to be involved in the sex ring abusing people under the age of 14.

Andrea 25:48

Really?

Paul G 25:49

Convicted them.

Andrea 25:50

Convicted them.

Paul G 25:51

Yeah. Salem witch trial. There it is.

Andrea 25:53

Yeah, it is. Boom. Innocent people going to jail.

Paul G 25:55

And uh they were all the cases were overturned. Every last one of them.

Andrea 26:01

Good.

Paul G 26:01

Because it didn't happen. It was a bunch of little kids saying, Yeah, they did this, yeah, they did this. They took me in there, and I had to go to that party.

Andrea 26:09

But who's coaching them?

Paul G 26:11

They're social workers. Because who's gonna talk to the kids?

Andrea 26:17

Social work.

Paul G 26:18

Social workers and the police.

Andrea 26:19

So, like is it?

Paul G 26:20

I think the Kern County was more of a, if I remember from the doc, it was more of a um the police kind of thing. The police did that one.

Andrea 26:28

Do they social workers in the 90s have like what extra training on satanic panic?

Paul G 26:32

Extra training on Yeah, they watch TV.

Andrea 26:34

And you know, are they like you got a pentagram on the floor, you're going to hell. I mean, you know what I'm saying?

Paul G 26:39

It's like Then it Jordan, Minnesota, West Memphis 3. Which that was a sad it's still sad because they had to take an Alfred Purley to get out of jail, and that's not right. I think that Alfred, yeah, Arkansas's really kind of dirty on that one.

Andrea 26:54

We screwed them over in so many ways, and they're still fighting to have DNA tested, so they can't.

Paul G 26:59

They have to do it privately.

Andrea 27:01

I just think, come on, Arkansas doesn't want to admit we screwed up. Okay, I get that.

Paul G 27:04

Who cares? Well, they don't want to get sued because Arkansas has a surplus budget, so they have money they can go after.

Andrea 27:10

Oh, that's right. We do.

Paul G 27:12

It's a state. Ooh. Exactly.

Andrea 27:14

Well, still, if you messed up, own it and apologize and move on.

Paul G 27:19

Yeah, in Canada, Martinsville ritual abuse case in '92 as well. So it's it's it's not unheard of. It's happening all at the same time. Oak Hill Daycare in Texas in 1991.

Andrea 27:29

What's up with daycares? I mean, I don't check this out.

Paul G 27:34

Dan and Fran Keller were convicted based on children's claims of ritualistic torture and fantastical allegations. Medical evidence cited at the trial was later proven false. And they had a but not until they served 21 years in jail.

Andrea 27:52

21 years in there. If you think about it, people who've committed crimes against children don't farewell. And it goes on and on.

Paul G 28:02

The County Walker babysitting case, Fells Acres Day School, Glendale Montessori case in California, when I when I chex ring hoax in Washington, it's another sex ring. Geez. Chicago Ripper Crew give claim to being of gang raping people. Uh Matamoros, again, cult in Mexico. And they just keep going and going and going.

Andrea 28:28

So there's no direct pattern in the US as far as like what state seems to like want to prosecute poor people for a sedan.

Paul G 28:36

Right. Well, it more than likely it's just, you know, it it it's I don't know. It's a thing though. You said your parents were upset about that. They were worried about it.

Andrea 28:46

Yeah, and I think a lot of that had to do with like um my mother, God lovers, very conservative and was kind of raised on fire and brimstone.

Paul G 28:56

I don't know if she's conservative as much as she might just be southern.

Andrea 29:01

Well, there's a story that um my father told me once that this kind of will explain a little bit about it. They were getting married, and my dad likes to, at the time, uh loves to just learn and read, and he'll read anything. And he had a book on um, I want to say it was like Wicca or something like that. And my mom almost broke off their marriage because he had that book.

Paul G 29:20

Yeah. That was the that was the the thought thinking of the times.

Andrea 29:23

Yeah, thinking of the times of like if you're reading this stuff, uh you can read it, I think, and just educate yourself. But if you're like in possession of it, then you're like going to hell.

Paul G 29:34

Yeah, you're you can't even touch it. Well, people misinterpret the Bible and then you go to Baptist church or something. Whatever, yeah. And they they say, Oh, you can't even be around it. You know, it's it doesn't happen through osmosis. Just because I'm in the library doesn't mean I know all the stuff that's in all these books.

Andrea 29:48

Because I asked my dad, I was like, Why did you have the book? And he said, I was just really curious about what it was. That's the only reason why I bought the book.

Paul G 29:55

Why would I care? Yeah.

The Sheriff, Prosecutor, And FBI Involvement

Andrea 29:56

And I was like, Oh, I was like, Well, that's innocent. And he's like, But I got rid of it. Because I wanted to marry your mother.

Paul G 30:02

So the FBI's own expert, Kenneth L. Lanning, stated there is little or no evidence for large-scale body baby breeding, human sacrifice, or organized satanic conspiracies.

Andrea 30:17

So what made this woman write that book about all her oppressed memories? Do you think her therapist was just feeding her stuff to make himself famous?

Paul G 30:23

You know, oppressed memories can't be trusted because we do dream. And when you're talking about entering the subconscious, it could just be part of that mechanism that causes you to dream and dream something in your head.

Andrea 30:38

That's true.

Paul G 30:39

We don't actually know exactly why we dream even.

Andrea 30:44

Well, we don't want my dreams to become a reality. That'd be scary.

Paul G 30:47

Mine are cool. Mine are TV shows.

Andrea 30:49

I don't I don't know.

Paul G 30:50

I just I literally, you know I do. I I've told you this from the beginning. I dream in TV shows and movies.

Andrea 30:56

But yeah.

Paul G 30:57

It's interesting. I have whole movies in my head when I dream.

Andrea 31:00

When I was pregnant, I gave thought I had a dream that I gave birth to a bunny.

Paul G 31:04

A bunny?

Andrea 31:04

A bunny.

Paul G 31:05

Sweet doodle bunny.

Andrea 31:06

And I was horrified that it was a bunny, and everyone was like, oh, what a cute little baby. And I'm like, it's a bunny.

Paul G 31:12

Think about it this way. You know, you wouldn't have to worry about any repercussions from giving birth because it's tiny, tiny.

Andrea 31:18

No, it was like a a like a human size, like a baby-sized bunny.

Paul G 31:23

Yeah. And that was just a baby bunny? Yeah.

Andrea 31:24

And I'm just I'm just laughing in my head because I'm thinking, like, all of us like dream this stuff, but is therapy even changed over the years? Or like, I'm gonna sit down and hypnotize you with this. They don't do that anymore. You're gonna like tell me all this stuff and you're gonna remember it. And I I just feel like that's fishing for like spending more money on therapy.

Paul G 31:45

I'm gonna make you she's not a big believer in therapy.

Andrea 31:48

I've not had a good experience with therapy.

Paul G 31:50

Well, talk therapy to me. You have I have to have somebody smarter than me.

Andrea 31:54

Well, good luck with that.

Paul G 31:56

Yeah. Well, I'm not on, you know, I'm not 100%, you know, I'm not Elon Musk smart. You don't see any rockets in the backyard, do you?

Andrea 32:02

No, but for you to be able to have somebody that like knows more psychology than you, then that is saying something because you I don't know, but that I'm not that good.

Paul G 32:12

I just watch a lot of crap, that's all.

Andrea 32:15

You're just very fascinated by it. You find it interesting, so therefore you like research it.

Paul G 32:18

Yeah, I do.

Andrea 32:19

I'm just mind-blown by people accusing innocent people of stuff because it's like it's Salem. We didn't learn the first time. But we didn't learn Salem witch trials, and we didn't learn then, so it makes me ask what else is it?

Paul G 32:30

The Salem witch trials all over again.

Andrea 32:32

But it makes me wonder what else is a Salem witch trial out there that we're going through now. I guess we that's a whole other topic.

Paul G 32:39

Yeah, listen, it's and that crosses into politics, so we can't do that.

Andrea 32:42

No, we can't talk about politics because somebody will get mad and send us hate mail.

Paul G 32:45

Yeah, and we're not here to talk about politics. We're here to talk about things that we want to know about. And honestly, the last thing we want to know about is a politician.

Andrea 32:54

That's true. Yeah. So, I mean uh they basically just ignored Kelly and her what happened to her.

Paul G 33:01

Yes.

Andrea 33:02

Because they're all wrapped up in this, she got killed by Satan.

Paul G 33:05

Exactly. I mean And then so then the prosecutor gets involved, the sheriff, and then they turned it on the investigator trying to say that he was involved. That's why there's the because he I think what he was doing, he was saying there's no link here. What are you people doing?

Andrea 33:18

Oh, I bet you're right. And they got mad because he called him out.

Paul G 33:21

Yeah. And they were they were about to take him to trial. It went to the grand jury, and the Texas AG got wind of it.

Texas AG Intervenes, Cases Unravel

Andrea 33:29

Well, thank God, maybe someone with some sensibility.

Paul G 33:31

Yeah, the Texas AG got wind of it, and it he went through everything, him and his office at the time. And my gosh.

Andrea 33:42

I imagine he's pretty upset. He or she, it's probably a he.

Paul G 33:46

But uh so and and they went through it all, and what they did is they basically said, Everybody here is full of shit.

Andrea 33:57

Well, at least let's be honest.

Paul G 33:59

Everything.

Andrea 34:00

That's good.

Paul G 34:01

Texas A.G. was outraged that this happened.

Andrea 34:05

I mean, rightfully so, because they didn't do any police work for Kelly, and they basically this poor seven-year-old is being coaxed to confess stuff that didn't happen.

Paul G 34:14

Yeah. And you know, they the prosecutors were trying to go for the death penalty on these folks.

Andrea 34:24

The death penalty?

Paul G 34:25

Yeah.

Andrea 34:26

That's messed up.

Paul G 34:27

These people were so these kind of they're probably something akin to Waco people. You know, it's kind of like a they kind of have a half-cult thing going on, and they're weird, so we don't like them.

Andrea 34:40

So therefore we're gonna target everything that happens in that town on them?

Paul G 34:43

Yeah, exactly.

Andrea 34:44

That's messed up. Wasn't Waco when did Waco happen?

Paul G 34:49

Right around that time. Is it right? 94, I think, wasn't it? I can't remember.

Andrea 34:52

I'm gonna Google it because I'm curious.

Paul G 34:54

You gotta Google it.

Andrea 34:54

I gotta know. I remember when Waco happened because I remember thinking, what the heck is going on?

Paul G 34:58

Ruby Ridge was the really the instigator of the whole thing.

Andrea 35:01

Yeah.

Paul G 35:02

That was bad. But at the same time, the people involved in the civilians involved in Ruby Ridge escalated it too. Everybody tries to blame it.

Andrea 35:12

1993.

Paul G 35:13

1993?

Andrea 35:13

Yeah, February 20th, 1993. Let me see here. Yeah, February 1993 is when they raided. So yeah, it's right in the middle of this whole entire thing where you know people are having different whatever, if you want to worship Satan, go ahead.

Paul G 35:28

Yeah.

Andrea 35:29

That's your prerogative.

Paul G 35:31

That's up to you. It's the the when it comes to religion, it's between you and yourself and God.

Andrea 35:36

Yeah, whatever your form of God is.

Paul G 35:38

Yeah.

Andrea 35:38

But I mean, but this is around no god, I guess. You know, 1993, 1994, 1992, whenever thing was if you weren't Christian, then you were I mean, that's what all I remember about the whole thing was if you people today either we've either forgotten about that or they just never experience I don't know.

Paul G 35:57

I mean, I if you're in the South, you experienced it.

Andrea 36:00

Yeah, yeah, I would say so. You definitely experience because I mean if you what gets me though about the most about satanic panic is if you want to wear a Metallica t-shirt.

Paul G 36:11

That's not Satan.

Andrea 36:12

That's not Satan. You like the band.

Paul G 36:14

Yeah.

Andrea 36:14

Do you worship the band? Uh that's your prerogative if you do.

Paul G 36:17

But worship is a draw, is a is a transit transitory term.

Andrea 36:22

Yeah, exactly. But they were thinking like, oh, if you're wearing that shirt or you're wearing like um your hair a little differently, or uh what's it mullets or something in the 90s term? I think it's mullets.

Paul G 36:32

Everybody had a mullet. What are you talking about? That was normal.

Andrea 36:34

I know, but they're so ugly.

Paul G 36:36

I even had a mullet. It was just I was very classy with my mullet.

Andrea 36:40

I remember my brother having one, and I just wanted to go back behind and just cut it. It was ugly. But you know, it just because you want to wear that t-shirt, you know, shouldn't instantly think they're out there like killing goats and like worshiping babies, you know, or killing babies. I mean, that's how do that's such a far stretch of reality to me. It's just a band.

Paul G 37:00

Yeah, and in the meantime, this woman's dead and no one seems to care. They're more interested in putting the curs in jail than they are.

Andrea 37:07

So basically, she gets no justice.

Paul G 37:09

None, none at all. And we still don't know anything about her.

Who Likely Did It? Profiles And Possibilities

Andrea 37:12

Because I couldn't find anything on newspapers.com as far as like like a 20-year revisit of the case or anything like that. I couldn't find anything because I'm thinking, did you just have nothing to okay? We messed up, we went with the curs. Oh, I made a mistake. Let's go back to Square Run and one and try to find her killer. And there was none of that.

Paul G 37:30

It's like the I don't understand how they could lose her body and never find it.

Andrea 37:34

Well, I don't know what that part of Texas is like. I mean, we live in the Ozarks, so the mountain.

Paul G 37:39

You can do that out here.

Andrea 37:40

You can do that out here. Oh, yeah. Without there was lots of mountains, there's lots of or like in Tennessee or Kentucky or someplace like that. I can picture like the smoky mountain, somebody could disappear, but I don't know what that part of Texas looks like. I do I do remember people telling me when I lived in Texas, like the east side of Texas is a little bit different than the west side of Texas, as far as there is hills.

Paul G 38:00

Yeah.

Andrea 38:01

But their definition of hills and our definition of hills are slightly different, I'm sure.

Paul G 38:04

Absolutely. So our AI investigator.

Andrea 38:08

Oh, yeah, yeah. Our Robert Resser.

Paul G 38:10

Cade Mercer.

Andrea 38:11

Cade Mercer.

Paul G 38:11

Robert Resser, aka Well, it's just and using the told AI to use all the stuff we know about murder.

Andrea 38:17

I know, and I'm teasing them because I feel like we need to put a face on him and a little hat, and you know, and he monocle?

Paul G 38:23

No, no monocle. No monocle, okay uh so uh his position is it tells us the panic was the problem, not the crime.

Andrea 38:32

I agree with that.

Paul G 38:33

Uh first the patterns in Gilmer match every known profile of panic-driven contamination. Children repeated phrases, adults rewarded, stories grew with each retelling, and none of it aligned with how organized offenders actually operate. Because they would be an organ I guess they would be an organized offender if you were you'd have to be, if you were a cult.

Andrea 38:55

Yeah, you'd have to have some sort of like hierarchy or structure.

Paul G 38:58

Well, you'd have, yeah, and you have all these put them on the slab, you know, make the ritual, you know, whatever. I think all that stuff gets some horny toads and boil them down.

Andrea 39:07

I think all that stuff that we picture in her head from the movies. I don't think that's what it really is. I don't have any idea. I don't know.

Paul G 39:14

It didn't exist until until uh Al uh Crowley started doing it. Before that, there was none of this.

Andrea 39:21

Yeah, it wasn't it's new.

Paul G 39:23

I mean, yeah, 200 years old at most.

Andrea 39:25

And wasn't he Alistair Crowley kind of off his own rocker?

Paul G 39:28

Yeah, he was nuts. He had a bunch of people that just did it for fun and he was serious.

Andrea 39:32

Oh wow.

Paul G 39:33

Yeah, it's crazy. Um the so the the stories grow with each retelling, says Cade, and none of it aligned with how organized offenders actually operate. There's no behavioral signature or ritualistic crime here.

Andrea 39:49

Okay.

Paul G 39:50

This is clear signature of suggestibility. Second, he says, nothing physical back to claims. The FBI said for decades that large ritual networks leave evidence, scenes, tools, remains, transport, communication, right? You you would be able to dig something.

Andrea 40:09

There's no evidence on the There was none of that here.

Paul G 40:12

Uh what it had was misidentified bones, collapsing timelines, and testimony by seven-year-olds, strained to the point of just just for the utility of it. Uh and he also says here that he thinks, Cade thinks it was the boyfriend or one of her other close friends that did it. I mean that because it suggested highly she could get in the car or she got in her car, her purse is there, there's no signs of struggle, the car wasn't broken into. So she knew whoever walked up to her.

Andrea 40:46

But my point is if she knew who walked up to her, wouldn't she take her purse with her with her? To me, that seems very strange.

Paul G 40:51

Not if he grabbed her.

Andrea 40:52

Oh, it's true.

Paul G 40:53

Or said, Hey, come here, I want to talk to you in my truck for a minute.

Andrea 40:55

And then snatch, she's gone.

Paul G 40:57

Right. And yeah, and just ether, you know, to the face. And boom, Casey Anthony, you know, just do that.

Andrea 41:04

That's true. She took her key because she's probably thinking she's gonna go ride back in her car.

Paul G 41:07

She probably has her key in her pocket.

Andrea 41:08

Or it could be like one of her friends are like, Hey, I see you have a slash tire there. Let me help you get that. And then they start talking and texture.

Paul G 41:14

Yeah.

Andrea 41:14

We're saying he because but more than likely it's a he.

Paul G 41:18

It's like a 90% chance it's a guy.

Andrea 41:19

So no one else.

Paul G 41:20

Women generally don't kill this way, they'll poison you or something.

Andrea 41:23

Yeah, I don't want people screaming, I was like, there's women could do that too. Uh let's just think about statistics here.

Paul G 41:27

Yeah, yeah. Statistics shows that's that's without statistics, we'd never been able to find Dahmer or anybody else.

Andrea 41:34

That's true.

Paul G 41:35

I mean I mean that's just the way it works. You know, Ted Bundy gave us the rules and we expounded upon them.

Andrea 41:42

Yeah, and people before him did too, I'd say.

Paul G 41:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just being, you know, sarcastic and bloviastic.

Andrea 41:49

Yeah.

Paul G 41:50

Which is not a word.

Andrea 41:51

I'm sure he'd love that kind of credit.

Paul G 41:52

Oh, he would love it. He'd be in here talking, yeah, I love it.

Evidence Over Hysteria: Lessons Learned

Andrea 41:55

Yeah, then he'd want to go out to some, you know, to the University of Arkansas, you know, so we're already I don't know, man.

Paul G 42:01

The girls these days, he might not be interested.

Andrea 42:04

Their hair's not parted down the middle.

Paul G 42:06

I'm such a jerk. But yeah, and no, he says it has to be somebody she knew. So the boyfriend suggests that from the profile.

Andrea 42:14

So the boyfriend, though, he didn't Is he the one that lied about his alibi?

Paul G 42:19

Yeah. Or he didn't lie, it just kind of moved around.

Andrea 42:23

Like he didn't say it exactly the same way all the time. Which I would think if you're under that much stress thinking you're being accused of killing your girlfriend, you'd make sure that's on point.

Paul G 42:33

Yeah.

Andrea 42:34

I would think.

Paul G 42:34

But then he died of cancer.

Andrea 42:36

Which God rest his soul, that's awful.

Paul G 42:39

And it may not have been him.

Andrea 42:40

That's true, it might not have been him.

Paul G 42:41

It might have been the other there's another guy involved, and I'm not gonna say his name, it was a friend of hers.

Andrea 42:46

Yeah.

Paul G 42:47

And it's those are your two prime suspects, that and the manager. But the manager was accounted for.

Andrea 42:54

Yeah, he he went home, he had an alibi and everything. He was cleared. So so they basically were so focused on this family and thought that they're out there like having fun with Satan that they totally ignored everything else. So they ignored forensic, whatever frustrating.

Paul G 43:11

I would have brought that, I would have brought that boyfriend in and just roasted him. Well, yeah, that's I would have been like we know you did this. We can't see how anybody else could have. But I would have I would have got a subpoena for his car and and tried to see if there's any blood evidence, figure out where he was.

Andrea 43:26

But they didn't do they did some of that, but I feel like I feel like they didn't follow through. I feel like they kind of like started it and then, oh, let's go to this one because this one sounds better. I'll go over here.

Paul G 43:35

Yeah, and that's because of the satanic panic. They all thought that these people are crazy, they're weird, they're out here living in a compound out in the woods in the mud, and they've got tons of kids, and then you know, barely go to school. They don't feed them, they're already on the DHS or whatever CPS.

Andrea 43:52

They probably they're a different version.

Paul G 43:54

Perfect target.

Andrea 43:56

And they're an earlier version of David Koresh or later version of David Koresh.

Paul G 44:01

It's a 94, right? Yeah, this is Koresh was they were doing this in '92, though.

Andrea 44:05

Oh, okay, okay.

Paul G 44:06

So yeah.

Andrea 44:07

So they were all like, you know, doing that.

Paul G 44:09

I don't know if it's Koresh or not.

Andrea 44:10

We really Well no, it's not Koresh, but I mean like an example of like he had his own compound, he had his own religion, he had his kids stay there. They're keeping their ice.

Paul G 44:17

No, it in no nowhere in the in the in the stuff I've reading is it claimed that the Kurds have religion or anything like that.

Andrea 44:25

Okay, I'm just making a assumption.

Paul G 44:27

Yeah, and I haven't been able to find it. Okay, but if it does exist, it's probably out there somewhere then.

Andrea 44:32

Minus religion, just they're living a different lifestyle than what the town finds acceptable.

Paul G 44:37

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's what the satanic panic's all about.

Andrea 44:41

They're doing something that the the town or the your government or of your town or the social norms of the day find unacceptable.

Paul G 44:48

Yeah, so in 92. Remember, this is the the uh the the Kurs were were already investigating them in 1990. Oh, so they already kind of had some They were already investigating the Kurs in 1990.

Andrea 45:00

Yeah. Wow.

Paul G 45:01

So this is ongoing.

Andrea 45:03

So they wanted dependent on somebody, they wanted it over.

Paul G 45:06

Yeah, exactly.

Andrea 45:07

Which is horrible to do to a family.

Paul G 45:10

Yeah, it's before she was killed in 92.

Andrea 45:14

Wow.

Paul G 45:14

Or disappeared. I mean, it's possible she's in the she was, you know, anything. At at this point, anything is is is plausible at this point. She could be trafficked. She could have uh a billionaire could have stopped by and said, Hey, I'm gonna let you live this romance novel if you just come with me now. And she goes, Okay, and changes her name and becomes you know, beauty queen and all sorts of stuff. And no, and no one knows it's her.

Andrea 45:42

That would be nice, but highly unlikely.

Paul G 45:45

Well, I mean, I'm just trying to be positive here.

Andrea 45:48

What? It's hard. I mean, there's no body. There's no but this point it'd be bones if she was found.

Paul G 45:55

Yeah, but especially now. She somebody will probably come across it sometime when they start doing, you know, urban expansion. Eventually, somebody's gonna come across the body and go, who the hell is this?

Andrea 46:05

That's usually how it happens. Somebody like a hiker finds them or a trapper, like a last something like the last case.

Paul G 46:11

Or a squirrel hunter decides not to call in till the next day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still think that guy did it.

Andrea 46:17

I still think so too.

Paul G 46:19

I don't know. I don't know. I can't tell.

Andrea 46:22

But I just that's kind of sad because his family, this this her mom and her dad, probably based upon the age and how old the how old she was, and they if they're still alive now, I don't know. But they're holding on to hope because that's what you do as a parent. But yeah, I mean, you have no answers.

Paul G 46:42

No answers at all.

Andrea 46:43

Nothing.

Paul G 46:44

And they're never going to get answers. Even and I don't know if they're alive or dead. I didn't check.

Andrea 46:48

So but honestly, uh say they find her and now and they put her to rest. They still don't have answers, they still don't have justice. Just because they s drop the ball because they wanted to blame it on something that was easier.

Closing Thoughts, Next Case, And Plugs

Paul G 46:59

Uh yeah. Well, how many you know, I'm I this is why we need evidence and why we this is where I get it. This is where i it I I would be a bad juror. Because I'd be like, unless you have a hard evidence and not some idiot saying they did this, I'm not convinced. And I'll never be convinced by eyewitness testimony. No, you can't because I mean we know how bad eyewitness testimony is.

Andrea 47:24

It's very bad.

Paul G 47:24

And uh red car or a blue car. I think it was green. No.

Andrea 47:27

I mean, you know, it was purple. Unless you purposely looking at something to remember something, which you're not doing that when you're out and about and our brains don't even work that work like that.

Paul G 47:39

No, it's not how the and they know how we recall stuff, and that's not how our brains work.

Andrea 47:44

No, so unless it's like what forensic evidence, like uh, you know, uh blood or whatever, saliva or whatever, or like fingerprints or DNA. DNA.

Paul G 47:54

I mean DNA is not always foolproof either.

Andrea 47:56

No, it's not.

Paul G 47:57

So I mean it's But it's very rare that it's not.

Andrea 48:00

I think I would be a bad juror too. I wouldn't want I'd be like, I need I need 100% to know that they were there based upon DNA evidence. If they're not, I you're asking me to kind of vote with like of my peers what I feel about person. I have someone's life in my hands. That's a lot it's a lot of responsibility.

Paul G 48:17

I wouldn't do it because I've been falsely accused a bunch of times of stuff. I get falsely I I growing up, I got falsely accused of all sorts of crazy crap. And I'm like, no, that never happened. Not even close. And so I know what it's like to be on the other end of that, and I'm not gonna do that to somebody.

Andrea 48:36

Yeah, and I think especially if it's a death penalty case.

Paul G 48:39

It was never anything legal wise or it was just people accusing me of crap that I never did.

Andrea 48:46

Childhood stuff.

Paul G 48:47

Yeah. Well, and some of some adult stuff.

Andrea 48:50

Really?

Paul G 48:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lost a job over it.

Andrea 48:53

Really?

Paul G 48:53

Yeah. I didn't do any of that.

Andrea 48:56

That's crazy. But I mean, I don't know. Plus jurors don't get paid enough for that much responsibility.

Paul G 49:02

What, $2 a day back then? Now they get $25?

Andrea 49:05

Yeah, that's not even paying a wage for you being gone. Yeah.

Paul G 49:08

We should at least compensate them for what their normal wage was.

Andrea 49:11

I mean, that'd be nice.

Paul G 49:13

And people would be willing to do it. It'd be like, I don't care what foot your verdict is, but when you're in the seat, you're getting whatever you're you're getting your $18 an hour if you normally get. That'd be that's the way we should do it.

Andrea 49:24

Yeah, I mean, people might take it a little bit more seriously. But as also for the prosecutor and for the other one, that's their attorneys to weed out the people that are always for the death penalty or you know, that kind of thing.

Paul G 49:35

They weed them out based upon whatever I've always said public hangings would stop a lot of this stuff.

Andrea 49:41

Oh yeah. Back in the 1800s, we thought it was a party.

Paul G 49:45

Yeah, well, they were hanging people for stealing horses.

Andrea 49:49

Yeah, and you didn't get, I mean There's no appeal. You were just hung the next day. Yeah, it's like, okay, you're guilty of stealing this horse, okay. Tomorrow you die. I mean, there was none of this, like, uh, I didn't do it because of this.

Paul G 50:00

Yeah. So that's that's um that's her case. Still open, no one knows, and probably never will know, especially if the killer, and I'm saying if, was the boyfriend who died of cancer.

Andrea 50:15

We'll never know. We'll never know because there's nothing depending on anybody.

Paul G 50:20

No, you can't, there's no evidence, no nothing.

Andrea 50:22

And she's she's obviously realistically, she's bones right now, so you may maybe get a cause of death.

Paul G 50:28

Or she's living in Dubai, living a princess life.

Andrea 50:32

That would be nice.

Paul G 50:34

You know, we can always hope.

Andrea 50:35

But if you're listening, contact your parents.

Paul G 50:38

Yeah, at least whisper it to them. Send them a letter, like a letter with a check for a million.

Andrea 50:43

But she was a beautiful girl with a very much typical 90s cheerleader blonde with all the hairspray in it. You don't want to get closer with a cigarette, she'll light on fire.

Paul G 50:53

Satanic panic took over and that was it. That's really what this whole thing was about was satanic panic.

Andrea 50:59

I'm glad it died off.

Paul G 51:00

Yeah.

Andrea 51:01

I wonder how many other cases are out there like that.

Paul G 51:03

Well, you know, the Me Too movement cost a few guys a few guys that, and that's documented too.

Andrea 51:11

Yeah.

Paul G 51:11

But there was a lot of stuff that they guys shouldn't have been doing as well, that were bad guys. And it just kind of blew up on ones that were just hated by ch by some woman because she was mean. Not all women are like that, no.

Andrea 51:27

No.

Paul G 51:28

I'm just saying it's it it happens over and over and over again because we're human.

Andrea 51:32

That's another witch hunt. Good and bad.

Paul G 51:35

I think You can't not, you can't not believe the woman. But because it's someone's life.

Andrea 51:46

You better have evidence. Yeah, you do.

Paul G 51:52

And I'm not uh it it's a catch-22.

Andrea 51:55

But for any woman out there to accompuse accuse a man of that, shame on you.

Paul G 51:59

If you didn't if he didn't do it.

Andrea 52:01

If he didn't do it, shame on you.

Paul G 52:02

Yeah, I mean, that's all you're ruining it for the people who actually were abused.

Andrea 52:06

Correct. Yeah. And this kind of puts everybody, every child that's ever been abused in question now, you know, the things had to evolve.

Paul G 52:13

Yeah.

Andrea 52:14

Where you ha I don't I want to believe that no child is skipped, but I know it probably happens because there isn't enough evidence. Yeah. And it all stems from cases like this.

Paul G 52:24

Yes.

Andrea 52:25

Which is sad and awful.

Paul G 52:27

And all those other cases that happened. I read off what 12?

Andrea 52:30

I know. Innocent people.

Paul G 52:32

Yeah. Exactly.

Andrea 52:34

Forever changed their lives.

Paul G 52:36

So think about it. If you ever find yourself in that situation, I guess. Ever find yourself in that situation. I need to a 98. Uh you know, think about this kind of stuff. Think back and go, am I doing the right thing? Is this real or is there any doubt in my head? If there is doubt in your head, probably don't need to be doing it. Need to do it differently. Go about it differently.

Andrea 52:59

Yeah.

Paul G 53:00

Exactly.

Andrea 53:01

Don't target people.

Paul G 53:02

So that's uh yeah, definitely don't target people. So that's that's it for her. I I don't know what to tell what else to say. It's just a completely crazy case.

Andrea 53:10

Do we know what happened to social workers? I wasn't able to find anything.

Paul G 53:14

It's like they just disappeared off the face of the earth. I'm sure they lost their job.

Andrea 53:18

I hope so.

Paul G 53:19

They the the one sergeant got his job back, finally. That they accused of him being part of it.

Andrea 53:27

Well, that's good. He got his job back.

Paul G 53:28

Yeah, he got his job.

Andrea 53:29

I don't know, past that. He probably kind of should have gotten reprimanded for not doing his job, but then he got his job back when he got the shoe on the other foot and got away.

Paul G 53:36

Well, if he stood up against him.

Andrea 53:38

We don't know if he did or not, but we want to believe he did.

Paul G 53:41

And this happened so long ago. Probably a quarter of these people are dead. We know one of them is.

Andrea 53:46

Yeah, the poor boyfriend. Yeah. Poor thing.

Paul G 53:48

If he's a poor thing, he might have got what he deserved. We don't know.

Andrea 53:51

We'll never know. But we want to be positive. But guys, Turkey Day's coming.

Paul G 53:56

Turkey Day?

Andrea 53:56

Turkey Day.

Paul G 53:58

You always call me that.

Andrea 53:59

I don't call you turkey. He's being a dork.

Paul G 54:05

Yes. What about turkeys? It fascinates you so much.

Andrea 54:10

Because it's we're having Thanksgiving and it's a big turkey and everybody's coming over here. Yeah. We had to I had to say something positive after a whole awful, like, nasty case.

Paul G 54:21

Yeah. I mean it's it's this is this, you know, it happens. So I guess if you enjoyed what you just heard about what's going on with that, there's a whole lot of other places you can hear a lot more detail about the crime. Uh I'd caution you to not take it all 100% because you never know what's true and what's not true.

Andrea 54:51

I would say so, yes.

Paul G 54:53

And not you don't know documentaries are the opinion of the documentarian, not necessarily the facts. I know this because I make documentaries. So when you listen to anything, uh like a gone cold cot podcast, which Andrea's monotone, I don't hate I'll say his talk like this.

Andrea 55:14

Which, no fault to him. It just it's hard for me to hear that.

Paul G 55:16

You know, it's just it's shtick. That's probably why people listen to him, honestly. You know, just saying.

Andrea 55:22

There's probably someone out here that doesn't want to listen to this because of my voice, so I mean I'm not one to judge.

Paul G 55:26

Your sexy voice.

Andrea 55:28

I don't know about that, but thank you.

Paul G 55:31

I get that all the time. Guys message me and go, is that your wife? I go, Yeah. Damn, I was gonna see what she has to say. And I'm like, Yeah, leave my wife alone.

Andrea 55:40

I doubt you get that.

Paul G 55:41

I do, I did. Did you? I swear to god, I did twice, actually.

Andrea 55:45

Okay.

Paul G 55:45

So there. So I keep telling it to her, keep trying to tell you, you still believe me. So weird.

Andrea 55:51

I know.

Paul G 55:51

You gotta start believing people.

Andrea 55:53

Uh next week we're covering we're covering James Weyburn Hall, which Arkansas's one serial killer guy. Yeah, well, you could say that he's a serial killer, but you could also say he's probably a spree killer. It depends upon how you want to define that. He killed four people, so I guess technically by definition, that is. But it, you know, I don't know. I I read the book on him years ago, and um, but I thought he would be interesting to cover because the last case he wanted to be a serial killer, and we figured out, you know, he only got convicted of one person.

Paul G 56:24

So no, he got three, I think. Anyway, we'll go into that next week.

Andrea 56:27

But uh James Weyburn Hall is an interesting um guy. It's back from around World War II era, about the 40s era.

Paul G 56:35

Um and uh it's interesting. I mean, I was doing a little re I was doing a little research before we sat down for this on that one.

Andrea 56:43

Yeah, he's interesting.

Paul G 56:44

And also, too, if you want to hear really cool stories about history, find Paul G's Corner. That's my personal podcast. And I dug go over all kinds of queer stuff. This last episode I did was absolutely great. And uh I get lots of all my my buddies in the podcast land are like, yeah, man, this is like one of the best ones.

Andrea 57:04

So you do a good job. And they're interesting stuff that I didn't even know happened in history, which I'm like, when did that happen? Or come on, that can't be real. The moon one was the one that I was like very flabbergasted over.

Paul G 57:14

We tried to bomb the moon.

Andrea 57:15

I'm still like I'm glad we did.

Paul G 57:17

Then we had Project Pluto, which is an irradiated cows with a nuclear powered nuclear core powered missile missile. Missile or missile?

Andrea 57:30

Missile.

Paul G 57:31

Missile.

Andrea 57:32

Okay.

Paul G 57:36

Uh that was basically the core was just exposed to the air.

Andrea 57:40

That's just mind-blowing.

Paul G 57:41

Just blowing radioactive exhaust all over everybody. Crazy.

Andrea 57:46

Well, we used to the poor radium girls, what we used to do with radium and radiation. We didn't have a clue.

Paul G 57:50

The last one is about anthrax.

Andrea 57:52

Oh yeah. That one was mind-blowing too, because he had me listen to it, and then I like blurted it halfway through, and I was because I I was like, is that the person that did that?

Paul G 58:00

Yeah. And this next one is actually a good little plug here for it. The next one I'm doing this week is Did you know the Soviet Union wanted to ask America's permission to nuke China?

Andrea 58:14

Oh, that's gonna be interesting to hear.

Paul G 58:16

Yeah, I didn't know about this either, and I'm like, what?

Andrea 58:19

That's a big ask.

Paul G 58:20

Yeah, that's a big ask. Versus a big ass, which is totally different subject, but that's okay.

Andrea 58:27

Yeah, we're not talking donkeys.

Paul G 58:29

Donkeys? Okay. I'm glad you went there. I also got some new merch up on the on the website. Remember that?

Andrea 58:38

Yes, you did show me that.

Paul G 58:41

Which one did you like the best?

Andrea 58:42

Uh I like the little uh raccoon guy.

Paul G 58:46

I'm only here for the unsolved crimes and free snacks.

Andrea 58:49

Yeah, that one's cute.

Paul G 58:50

What about the Ask Me About Murder or Donuts? Honestly, I mix them up.

Andrea 58:54

That's kind of funny. It's cops and donuts. Wah wah wah.

Paul G 58:58

I still like the CSI Walmart.

Andrea 59:00

Yeah, that one. If I think anybody in Arkansas gets that the most.

Paul G 59:03

Here's a hoodie too. We got a new hoodie today. My hobbies include panicking strangers with true crime facts.

Andrea 59:09

That one would be funny to wear, I think, out in public.

Paul G 59:12

Yeah. Yeah. And if you're local, buy one. That way, if I'm out running around and I see one, I can stop and say, hey, thanks for the money.

Andrea 59:22

Yeah.

Paul G 59:22

Or cool shirt. I'm glad you liked it. And or whatever you want me to say, because you bought a shirt, so I'll say whatever you want.

Andrea 59:30

Yeah, we'll take your hand and autograph or whatever.

Paul G 59:33

Autograph it?

Andrea 59:34

Autograph it.

Paul G 59:35

I saw an auto. I have to manually do it. What?

Andrea 59:40

Nothing.

Paul G 59:40

And all that stuff's available at paulgnewton.com. That's paulgnewton.com if you want to experience the other side of life.

Andrea 59:50

Definitely.

Paul G 59:52

Right? Um, what song is this? I've got to load a new song into the thing.

Andrea 59:58

It's a creepy, mysterious song.

Paul G 1:00:01

But this is the one that goes into something that I didn't want to use because about a minute in it turns into something else, right?

Andrea 1:00:08

I think this is the one that does that.

Paul G 1:00:10

Yeah.

Andrea 1:00:11

He's very picky about the music we play, so.

Paul G 1:00:14

Yeah. This doesn't fit this motif at all, does it?

Andrea 1:00:17

It's a mysterious vibe.

Paul G 1:00:19

Yeah. That's your song.

Andrea 1:00:23

I just think it's funny. I think we need to know everything. I need everything.

Paul G 1:00:29

Alright. Alright. Talk to you next time. See you guys.