When the Coroner Says It’s Not Murder

When the Coroner Says It’s Not Murder

Two teenage boys are found dead on railroad tracks near Mena, Arkansas.

The ruling? Accident.

A man is found with four gunshot wounds to the chest.

The ruling? Suicide.

Now… I don’t know about you, but that should at least make you pause.

Because once that word is written down — accident, suicide — everything shifts. Detectives slow down. Prosecutors adjust. The public moves on. And families are left staring at a piece of paper wondering how in the hell that conclusion was reached.

This episode isn’t about internet rumors. It’s about documented rulings. It’s about the Arkansas medical examiner whose determinations between 1979 and 1991 didn’t just describe deaths — they shaped what happened next.

The Boys on the Tracks case didn’t begin as a homicide investigation. It began as an accident. Only after family pressure and a grand jury did that story change.

And that four-gunshot suicide? That became one of the most talked-about determinations of the era. Not because of conspiracy podcasts — because people read it and said, “Wait… what?”

We also talk about the atmosphere at the time — alleged drug smuggling tied to Barry Seal, the later federal convictions of prosecutor Dan Harmon. There is no ruling tying those convictions to the deaths discussed here. But when narcotics investigations, local power structures, and fast accident rulings all overlap, people start asking questions.

This isn’t an episode where we declare some secret master plan.

It’s simpler than that.

If the coroner says it’s not murder… who argues?

And what happens when the person holding the pen is the most powerful voice in the room?

 “Thank you for listening to Things I Want to Know.
You want these stories, and we want to bring them to you — so hit the support link and keep this circus, and the mics, alive.
Then do us a favor and rate and subscribe; it helps the show find more people like you — the ones who like their mysteries real and their storytellers unfiltered.
And if you want to wear a little of this madness, grab some Andrea-approved gear at paulgnewton.com.
We make t

Transcript

Grunge Intro And Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:00

You're listening to Things I Wanna Know Welcome, you're listening to things that I wanna know.

Paul G 1:07

And um, I'm sitting here listening to the song. We're making our own music now for every episode so far.

Andrea 1:16

Yeah, so far.

Paul G 1:17

And I think it's kinda cool. I don't know. What do you think?

Andrea 1:21

That's not bad.

Paul G 1:22

This is classic Nirvana-esque music going on.

Andrea 1:28

Yeah, a little bit, I'd say.

Paul G 1:30

It's not quite nirvana, but it's and it's not like not quite Foo Fighters, I don't think.

Andrea 1:35

It's grunge, I'd say.

Coroners, Elections, And Qualifications

Paul G 1:37

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, 90s grunge. Absolutely. And the theme about it is 90s grunge is because of what we're going over today. And doctors.

Andrea 1:46

Oh, really?

Paul G 1:47

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So, as you know, every state has a coroner.

Andrea 1:52

This is true.

Paul G 1:54

And um, the coroners, now you know a little bit about coroners.

Andrea 2:02

Some, yeah. They're elected in Arkansas, which I think is totally messed up, in my opinion, but that's just my opinion.

Paul G 2:09

They're allowed to carry firearms.

Andrea 2:11

I don't think you should be elected. I think you should be qualified to qualified to do the job.

Paul G 2:18

Well, there are you do have to be qualified a little bit before they'll let you actually work as a corner get on the ballot as a coroner. You know, you can't just be like, well, I've buried a couple dogs and I know what to kill them because you know I accidentally hit them with my tractor. I don't know, man. Qualified as a coroner, I don't think.

Andrea 2:39

I just I don't know. Uh I just think you need like a lot of like training other than I don't know, maybe a medical doctor for that position, which I don't even think you have to be, do you?

Paul G 2:51

Yeah, I think so. You're gonna make me look that up, damn it.

Andrea 2:57

I don't know, man. The idea of elected, I'm thinking like, uh I don't know. Something about that. I feel like you should like be qualified or take board tests or be suited for the job, not just because you can put your face on a poster.

Paul G 3:10

Uh you know, you would think so.

Andrea 3:12

Yeah, you would hope.

Paul G 3:14

So um a coroner is used to not actually be that big a deal back in the day, but as we get more and more in medical, right?

Andrea 3:26

Yeah, more and more forensic stuff coming out. You have to be qualified and be able to know how to do certain testing to catch the bad guys. So yeah.

Paul G 3:33

So yeah, so in many states, uh no medical degree is required.

Andrea 3:37

Okay, that's messed up.

Paul G 3:39

And some states require minimal training after election, and in some places the coroner can literally be a funeral home director, which is Arkansas, because the funeral home director out in uh Berryville is the coroner. I found that out because I was remember when that I was driving to Eureka and that one lady, she's there's big traffic backup, and I'm driving by and I don't know what possessed these guys to do this. They left this lady sitting in her car. There's no sheet on her or nothing. She's just dead. And I could tell she was dead. You know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. If anybody's if you've not seen a dead person in real life, not at the not at the at the funeral home, but I mean actual like passed away recently, like within minutes or hours. Yeah, few she she was I mean, she was still ninety-eight degrees. That's how quick, that's how long the time that went by. You know, nowadays with she stopped her car in the road, in the middle of the road. She's she brought it to a stop before she died. That's cool.

Andrea 4:44

Yeah, I mean, it could have been a lot worse. Either she could have like rolled her car off the mountain, which is a possibility, or she could have hit somebody else, which happens. No, she didn't hit anybody. But I mean, that's typically I mean when we which you would think of when someone who dies like at the wheel, either they're gonna hit somebody or they're gonna roll off the road. In this case, she could like literally roll off the mountain.

Paul G 5:01

Yeah, there's the think of their their the those German or Australian out uh Austria Alps roads that you see on TV commercials and big fight movies that are in Europe. That's what Eureka Springs has roads look just like that.

Enter Dr. Fami Malik

Andrea 5:16

Pretty similar, yeah.

Paul G 5:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, so I drove by, I knew she was dead. I mean, you just like her dead and so I asked the the sheriff deputy that's standing there and he goes, No, waiting on the corner. And I said, Well, we've been waiting for almost an hour. He goes, Well, I know, he's funeral home director. They had a funeral, had to wait till that was done.

Andrea 5:34

I think if you think about it though, they don't know what happened, and they're probably not allowed to touch the body in a fashion. So they can't put a sheet on, they can't do none of that. They have to literally leave them as they are. Which, if you think about it, if it was like a murder scene, you don't want people like messing up stuff by covering up stuff.

Paul G 5:53

Well, the coroner isn't can in Arkansas cannot be in charge of that. It has to go to the Arkansas State Crime Lab, which we'll get into, which is a plays a major factor in the story we're doing today.

Andrea 6:04

Hopefully we've evolved since then. I have a feeling. No. I don't think so. Well, you know, if something ever happens to me, I guess shit my body out of state because I probably won't have much luck.

Paul G 6:16

Now who's negative? She's been calling me negative for a week.

Andrea 6:19

If you say that they're so bad here, if like something happens to you.

Paul G 6:22

I'm sure there's good ones.

Andrea 6:24

They're like, Well, I think she's dead.

Paul G 6:33

You had the glass, the glass test. You put a glass over their mouth and if fog's up, they're still alive.

Andrea 6:39

Oh my god, that's awful. That's awful.

Paul G 6:44

The breath. They're breathing. Yeah, they're breathing. Um, so oh my gosh. Is it is there anything happening? By the way, did we do anything special this week?

Andrea 6:58

Not really. Just the usual stuff.

Paul G 7:00

Well, we had a couple boxing matches, I think.

Andrea 7:04

Boxing matches.

Paul G 7:05

You got mad at me.

Andrea 7:07

Most married couples get mad at their significant spells at least once or once a week.

Paul G 7:11

This does not mean it's a bar to hold yourself to.

Andrea 7:13

No.

Paul G 7:16

So um today it's this isn't about a killer. It's about a signature.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Okay.

Paul G 7:24

Um Dr. Fami Malik. He was the state's uh medical examiner from 79 until he resigned about 1991, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh Bill Clinton was running for office and Bill Clinton kind of pushed him out. That's the hubbup.

Andrea 7:44

Oh, okay.

Paul G 7:45

Because he's like, he he trust me. Um, there's so many unsolved murders and and crap in this state that he had his fingers in.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Oh, that's not good.

Paul G 7:56

Yeah, yeah. Uh during the time though, he performed and supervised on thousands of autopsies. He was the medical examiner for the state of Arkansas.

Andrea 8:10

So he's the head dude.

Paul G 8:12

Alright, so the coroner can claim this person's dead, but he's gotta sign off on the cause of death.

Andrea 8:20

Oh my.

Paul G 8:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, most of his a lot of his conclusions determined uh whether deaths were ruled accidental, suicide, homicide, or undetermined.

Andrea 8:30

Okay, that's standard, yeah.

Paul G 8:32

Or, you know, I I really say that we need another category. That's uh fuck around, find out. We need that one.

Andrea 8:39

Fuck around and find out.

Paul G 8:40

Yes, yes. Because he died from fucking around and finding out.

Andrea 8:44

Oh, I was going, what? In other words, a checkbox for you were an idiot.

Paul G 8:50

Yeah, it's the hold my beer clause. Oh gosh.

Andrea 8:53

That's probably gonna qualify for a lot of like southern people in the state.

Paul G 8:57

I have I have uh attempted the hold my beer clause, but prevailed many times. Yeah, and then hold my beer, boss.

Andrea 9:05

And that that clause ends up, end up in the emergency room, and then the ICU and end up taking care of you because you're an idiot.

Paul G 9:13

I've unless you're trying to put lipstick on an alligator or something like that, like that Florida guy did. I what no, he baptized the alligator, that's right, with the picture of iced tea.

Andrea 9:24

I was like, please tell me that that's a joke.

Paul G 9:26

No, it was real.

Andrea 9:27

He must have been high on whatever substance that would possess him to take an alligator and baptize with iced tea.

Paul G 9:34

So, in multiple cases, though, this guy uh from the I got this off newspapers.com, so it's from the Associated Press. Um, across Arkansas, uh, his conclusions most a lot of the times were challenge reviewed and in some instances even changed.

Andrea 9:52

Oh, that's not good. Yeah. I mean, I can understand like once or twice that you get things changed, but sounds like this guy had a lot of it changed.

Paul G 9:59

Well, one of the biggest ones is Kevin Ives and Don Henry. Many of the listeners will know who that is. Many won't, you probably don't. Um, they were found dead on a track on railroad track in Celine County.

Andrea 10:12

Oh, I think I've heard of this.

Paul G 10:14

The original conclusion attributed to the deaths to accidental scenario involving them smoking too much marijuana and falling asleep.

Andrea 10:21

On the railroad tracks, right?

Paul G 10:22

This is the Mina case that everybody gets into.

Andrea 10:25

Uh, I think I've listened to something on that. And I remember going, what would possess you to think that's what happened?

Paul G 10:31

Uh, exactly.

Andrea 10:32

Didn't they prove that those kids were pushed?

Paul G 10:35

I know.

Andrea 10:36

Um or am I thinking of a different case?

The Boys On The Tracks Case

Paul G 10:38

No, no, no. Um oh my gosh. I've I've my notes are all goofed up now. I've screwed up my notes again. I've got to get better at this note stuff. You're going to school, you're gonna teach me.

Andrea 10:53

I'm gonna have to remember. It's been a while since I've been out.

Paul G 10:57

Um so on on these guys, the Kevin Ives and Don Henry, you know, we need to figure out where the the facts stop and the speculation begins because there's a lot of garbage out there on this. I mean, Tom Cruise did a movie about these about these two kids.

Andrea 11:15

Oh, that's right.

Paul G 11:16

Yeah, yeah. So in 87, Kevin Ives Don Henry were killed by a freight train in Alexander, Arkansas, Saline County. But the first official explanation came from Malik, Fami Malik, who ruled the deaths accidental. His conclusions attributed the boys' presence uh on the tracks due to marijuana. He said they fell asleep on the tracks and were run over by the train.

Andrea 11:44

I mean, marijuana does make people do dumb fat. I mean it does make some people sleepy.

Paul G 11:49

Yeah. But it doesn't put you out. I mean it's not like you're taking you know ambient or something.

Andrea 11:55

I would like to think that they would be like if the bodies are on the track and they're asleep, that the little, you know, choo-choo coming down the road would be enough to wake somebody up to be like, oh man.

Paul G 12:06

I saw a documentary where they interviewed one of the guys that had the was first on the scene, and he's like, These boys were destroyed. There are pieces a mile down the road, they had to pick them up.

Andrea 12:17

I remember that. Yeah, we watched something on that, and I'm going, that's just a horrible way to die.

Paul G 12:21

It's awful, isn't it? Um, so his ruling basically just shaped the entire investigation. Uh because the coroner says that in an accident, the investigation changes. State police, the urgency stops, the narrative settles, you know, things like that.

Andrea 12:38

They kind of don't push it as hard because you already have an explanation of who we're not going to look for anybody. It was an accident.

Paul G 12:43

Right, right. Well, they family pushed and pushed and pushed and finally got a grand jury to look at it. Which in Arkansas grand juries don't happen very often.

Andrea 12:51

I don't think they do.

Paul G 12:52

We don't use them very often at all. Um, the grand jury decided no, these kids were killed.

Andrea 12:58

Oh, well, good for them. Yeah.

Paul G 13:00

And so eventually the official death certificates were changed to reflect that the boys are murdered. Yeah, I mean, come on, right? Um and the documentation says the state's initial forensic ruling was accident, the record was later corrected homicide. And then it gets weirder from then there, because as we know, at the time of the boy's death, the Saline County prosecutor was Dan Harmon. Now, Dan Harmon, and I got this from the federal court records, Harmon was convicted of racketeering, conspiracy to extort, and conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute marijuana.

Andrea 13:36

And he's what, the prosecutor of the county?

Paul G 13:38

The prosecutor of the county.

Andrea 13:40

So the prosecutor of the county is just getting blitzed.

Paul G 13:42

No, he's selling it. And he he got caught with, if I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, um, you know, running prostitutes too. Locals.

Andrea 13:52

And when was this in the 80s?

Paul G 13:53

Yeah, yeah. This is this is and the guy who was flying this stuff in was the guy that was tied to a Rancontra, and he's he's the Tom Cruise did an entire movie based on him. He was flying drugs in and using Mina as the airport.

Andrea 14:10

Oh, in that um Yeah. There's a the guy talks about a documentary, right?

Paul G 14:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but there's no court ruling that legally proves Harmon ordered participated in or was directly involved in the murders of those two boys. Okay. And the allegations are that because Mina Arkansas was tied to documented drug smuggling from Barry Seal. That's the guy with the airplane, Barry Seal. Uh, that history is also supports uh that oh my god, sorry. I'm looking at this going, oh yeah, I forgot about that. Um documented drug smuggling history tied to Arkansas, that area. The SEAL guy, which is the guy that Tom Cruise played.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Okay.

Paul G 14:55

Right? He was bringing it in. The local prosecutor was later convicted on drug, drug-related federal charges. He's the one that ordered the drugs, is from what we can take, and that's speculation on my part.

unknown 15:06

Okay.

Paul G 15:06

But it makes a whole lot of sense when you consider how much drugs this man was found with, and how much he had moved. I mean, he it's we're talking tons.

Andrea 15:16

So the prosecutors are selling a bunch of weed.

Paul G 15:19

Yes. This prosecutor is well, here's what he was doing. Anybody that was fighting him over the business, they'd go to jail.

Andrea 15:27

Well, I mean, he's got the power to do that.

Paul G 15:29

And he did it. Um so the question I have on this, and this is something we'll probably never find out, was the Arkansas crime coroner was he in cahoots with this prosecutor? I mean, it that's not far, it's not hard to believe because they have contact with each other constantly. The prosecutor and the and the and the and the medical examiner.

Andrea 15:54

I mean, it's not a far-fetched idea.

Paul G 15:56

It's not a far-reach, is it?

Andrea 15:58

No.

Paul G 15:58

I can't prove it's true, obviously, but it makes me wonder. No one's ever really bothered to investigate this. Okay. And this is why he kind of fall this core this medical examiner falls under the radar in in conspiracy theorists. All right. Because no one ever investigated it. No one ever put two and two together and said, I wonder if these guys knew each other. Because it would make sense.

Andrea 16:22

So what do you think this has the connection with the two boys on the railroad track?

Paul G 16:27

He it may be that he knew it. It may not be. May not be anything, because we don't know.

Andrea 16:34

Maybe that's it.

Paul G 16:34

Maybe that he was getting paid to put accidental death, even though those kids were killed by the prosecutor.

Andrea 16:39

But why would you kill the boys unless they had something that you wanted them not to do with the city?

Paul G 16:43

They suspect that they walked in on what they would do, they take the drugs off the airplane and put it on the train and take it around the country.

Andrea 16:52

Okay, back then that makes sense.

Paul G 16:53

Yeah, yeah. And the boys found out and they didn't want any witnesses. That's the speculation. That's like But they're all high and then and drug dealers. Of you know, do you are first off, you're making poor choices right off the bat because you're a drug dealer.

Andrea 17:13

And you're also a prosecutor, but say these kids were living and they like go to the police department, are like, hey man, that guy's selling drugs. They're gonna be like, that's a prosecutor, no.

Paul G 17:21

Right, right, right.

Andrea 17:22

They're not gonna take him seriously, so why kill him?

Paul G 17:24

So he's involved in that. Okay. This is this Malik guy. And then later, uh Olivia Janey Ward, 16 years old, in Marshall, Arkansas. Initial reporting described a shortfall from a porch roughly 13 to 15 inches. The original reeling was labeled accidental, but later they had after a review by an out-of-state medical examiner, right? The official determination shifted from accident to undetermined.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Okay.

Paul G 17:59

Which that's a huge hole right there. And we'll have to get into that case later because it's really convoluted.

Andrea 18:07

Well, they think that she fell she might have been hit over the head. Oh, I see what she's doing. But we don't know. We really don't know if she like she's like she's how old, sixteen?

Paul G 18:17

Yeah, sixteen fell off a porch. It's eighteen inches high.

Andrea 18:21

That's a little suspicious. Yeah. I mean, uh my first question was, was she drunk?

Paul G 18:26

I don't know. She might have been. I mean But we don't know anything. That's the problem. Because when he reduced when he when when the medical examiner Malik put it as an accident, they quit investigating. It's just an accident. There's nothing the police can do. So all the physical evidence and just kind of goes away. It's an accident.

Andrea 18:48

But what what benefit do you get out of calling her accident?

Paul G 18:51

I don't think, I don't know. There really isn't anything on. I don't know. Um there's nothing to find.

Andrea 18:58

He was just that of an idiot.

Paul G 19:00

He's either really incompetent or just gets doesn't care or it's getting paid off or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Wow.

Paul G 19:07

That's why I'm that's why we're doing this episode because this guy's a freaking it's crazy, all the crap that happened underneath underneath this guy. Um in another case, Raymond Albright of Mountain View, this is this one's absolutely horrid. Uh he was he was originally ruled as a suicide. However, because they found that he was shot four times in the chest and once through the heart, after a secondary review, they said, no, he was murdered.

Prosecutor Dan Harmon And Mena Ties

Andrea 19:39

That's not suicide.

Paul G 19:40

That's not suicide.

Andrea 19:41

You don't just wake up and go, I'm not dead enough, and shoot yourself again. I mean, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

Paul G 19:47

Exactly.

Andrea 19:48

Either you miss and you don't do a successful suicide, or you do it correctly.

Paul G 19:53

I mean, these are your options. If you shoot yourself in the chest, I mean, I guess it depends on the chest. If you wing yourself and you didn't hit a line.

Andrea 19:59

It has to be an awkward angle to do that. If you like take your hand and you put it over your heart like a shape of a gun, that is going to be really hard to do.

Paul G 20:05

Pull a trigger on a gun, you'd have to really you'd have to almost dislocate your shoulder to get it in. I mean it because you have to hold the gun from behind, especially some of the some some firearms, I don't know which firearm this was, some firearms like mine, for example, has three safeties on it. And they're they're not click turn the safety on and off. If you don't have your hand wrapped around the handle, around the grip, it won't go off. It's got a hammer lock on it. You have to press in on the back of the handle or back of the the grip, and that releases a piece of metal that allows you to fire. Plus, there's there and then there's the regular safety that you're used to, you know, and click, click, click, click. And there's another one. It's also in the hammer. It's a hammer lock. You pull that down and it disengages the hammer. So you can walk around with the hammer pulled back. All you got to do is push that down, boom, boom, boom.

Andrea 21:06

Okay.

Paul G 21:06

So it's it's got three different safeties on it.

Andrea 21:09

I would imagine at this time frame that they don't have that much safety technology.

Paul G 21:13

They did, because most of these things that I'm talking about were in the 1945 version of the of the Colt 45.

Andrea 21:20

Oh, okay. Well, never mind then.

Paul G 21:21

Yeah, yeah. It's it's these these safeties are old and they're real life.

Andrea 21:26

Why do people accidentally shoot themselves?

Paul G 21:28

Because they're idiots and they buy cheap guns with no safeties on them. My my pistol is like a grand.

Andrea 21:35

So they make guns with no safeties.

Paul G 21:37

Yes. The cheaper they are, the less safe they are.

Andrea 21:40

I didn't know that. See, I learned something. But uh yeah.

Paul G 21:42

You see those guys shoot each other on shoot them, shoot themselves on TV and whatnot, on the TikToks and whatnot. It's because they're trying to play cowboy or they're trying to play gangsta, and they got their finger on the trigger of a loaded weapon the entire time. And you know, it doesn't take much. Six pounds, six to six to 12 pounds of pressure to pull uh the trigger on a gun. It's it's uh way above 12 pounds to open a pop can.

Andrea 22:08

Oh wow.

Paul G 22:10

Yeah. So way above. So in 92, the state crime board, crime lab board, came in and voted to change all four of these death certificates.

Andrea 22:23

And so at that point in time, there wasn't any red flags of maybe this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

Paul G 22:28

Tons of red flags about this guy.

Andrea 22:31

But they didn't do anything about it, obviously. I mean, I don't know the bureaucratic system in Arkansas as far as you get elected and you suck if you can like, you know, if you can get like, I don't know, impeached out or whatever the term is for you.

Paul G 22:44

There's an article of a sheriff that said um where the sheriff came out and said that there's that this man should be fired, he's incompetent. And this is the mid-80s.

Andrea 22:56

Oh wow.

Paul G 22:56

He wasn't even.

Andrea 22:58

That's saying something for us because normally we wouldn't like be that bold in a newspaper.

Paul G 23:02

Well, we got me you know what I'm saying, most people are like Sheriff Nelson says he'd fire Fammy Mallock. And this is out of Benton. Uh I don't have the time on this one. It is, let's see, is 1990. In 1990, he came out in the paper and said, uh according to the Baxter Bulletin, uh, Republican gubernatorial uh nominee Sheffield Nelson said Friday he would fire state medical examiner Family Malik if he if he has selected and he criticized Bill Clinton for not dismissing Malik a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Oh, that's not good.

Paul G 23:38

Sheffield Nelson, yeah, we know Sheffield. He'd never won, but he always ran against O'Bill. Uh yeah, and uh that's that's a governor candidate, governor, gubernatorial candidate, if I can tell.

Andrea 23:50

You know, it's really sad. Our state is known for the West Memphis and Bill Clinton, and here we go, Mr. Bill Clinton. Yeah.

Paul G 23:57

Well, of course he's gonna be, and he's a governor at the time, so I mean you can't get around that.

Andrea 24:00

Uh still. I mean, you know what I'm saying? This is like really sad.

Paul G 24:03

There was this whole this here, it's this interesting group here. Um they called themselves VOMIT, V-O-M-I-T.

Andrea 24:13

Please tell me that's an acronym for something.

Paul G 24:15

Yes, it's an acronym. Victim Victims of Malik's incredible testimony. That's what they called themselves.

Andrea 24:21

Oh God. Can you pick a better acronym? Right.

Paul G 24:25

So this is from the commercial appeal out of Memphis, February 2nd, 1992. Oh. Right. And some members of a group that hounded Dr. Fami Malik out of his state medical examiner's job to say the state didn't get much better with his replacement. Oh no.

Andrea 24:46

Please tell me we've done better now.

Paul G 24:48

Um, I you know, this is 40 years ago.

Andrea 24:51

I hope we've done better. I really do, because God forbid, you know.

Paul G 24:56

It's the and there was a I'm looking for the sheriff one because there's a sheriff that said he needs to go. I mean, it's not just a couple people, it's a lot of folks during that time.

Andrea 25:07

Everybody's like raising a fuss that this man's awful, but yet nobody does anything. Who has the power to say uh the governor?

Paul G 25:16

The governor.

Andrea 25:16

Oh, so Bill, Mr. Bill.

Paul G 25:18

Bill had to do it, yeah.

Andrea 25:19

Bill had to do it. And he's probably just sitting on his butt, not doing anything.

Paul G 25:24

No, he's hanging out with flowers in the garden. Yeah, that's probably that was a good one. He's depending his flowers in the garden. He still says that didn't happen, even though they wrote her a check. Whatever, we don't know.

Andrea 25:40

Well, he's in the Epstein files, so I don't think I think that man is capable. Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna go there.

Patterns Of Overturned Rulings

Paul G 25:45

Yeah, yeah. We're trying to keep out of politics here. All right. I met Bill once and I didn't wasn't happy with him. So I remember my mother.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

My mother's like, oh, you got when he was running for governor, he held you, and I'm like, why?

Paul G 25:57

Yeah, who cares? He wrote in the back of my dad's convertible. Dad wrote him in a in a in a in a parade down Springdale.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Really?

Paul G 26:07

Oh yeah, he's waving. Hey, how's it going?

unknown 26:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Oh my god.

Paul G 26:11

And but dad, the next year, or not the next year, but a few years later, because it's a little bit Huckabee rode in the same car, so whatever.

Andrea 26:20

That's better.

Paul G 26:21

You know, yeah, Huckabee Sanders father, Mike Huckabee, wrote in the back of the car.

Andrea 26:26

When he got in office, yeah.

Paul G 26:28

Yeah. That that guy's interesting. He's not Hutchison. Oh my god, let's not get started. Yeah. Anyhow, uh moving on.

Andrea 26:38

So we just it makes me wonder how many other states have gone through this same help. Probably a lot, actually.

Paul G 26:44

So it's not about proving one man wrong in one case, is what he's got several. Yeah, because medicine, as you know, is complex. Forensic pathology, it involves what uh interpretation. Reasonable experts can even a reasonable expert can disagree.

Andrea 27:00

Yeah, and it can change from like what happened 10 years ago to what it's current now.

Paul G 27:03

I mean, well, it's like that one lady that um they convicted her of shaking babies, shaking the baby. Yeah, that was and it had meningitis or something.

Andrea 27:11

It was something where they end up proving that it wasn't her.

Paul G 27:15

It wasn't her, but it took 12 years to do it.

Andrea 27:17

Yeah, so I mean technology arises where you know she could finally let her out, thank God.

Paul G 27:22

That was such I there's a documentary on HBO about that, and it's sad when you watch it.

Andrea 27:27

It's very sad, yeah.

Paul G 27:28

Um but these are high profile cases, right? Murders? Those two boys?

Andrea 27:38

Yeah, that yeah.

Paul G 27:38

I mean, we're talking about murders. I mean, you know because they quit investigating it when it comes back as an accident.

Andrea 27:47

Well, the people on the train, the girl that supposedly fill up the porch. I mean, yeah.

Paul G 27:53

And so we're, you know, what are the safeguards in that office? That's the problem. That's what we want to know. It's all it's a political office, really. But did anybody like works this guy go be like, hmm, uh, a few people complained, and that's why he he kept getting called up to the board of review, and because it's a political appointee. There's nothing you can do about it. The board had to fire him. I mean the board couldn't fire him without the governor's consent.

Andrea 28:20

From what I'm saying, see, that's why I'm saying it shouldn't be an elected position.

Paul G 28:24

I agree. Um geez.

Andrea 28:29

Uh is there any other other high profile cases? This man is screwed up, or is are we done?

Paul G 28:35

Um well, let's see. Um we did Kevin and I yes.

Andrea 28:42

Now the West Memphis three Yeah, that's another thing the state's known for. Yes, good thing.

Paul G 28:49

And he happens, I don't, you know, he's around in that one. The medical examiner in the case, let's see, on May 5th, 1993, three eight-year-old boys uh were found in a ditch. Murdered. And they blamed it on these teenagers.

Andrea 29:06

But we're all in the satanic panic era.

Paul G 29:09

Satanic panic was never a thing, it never existed. Nothing. You can just document it.

unknown 29:14

Yeah.

Paul G 29:14

Satanic panics, bunch of crap. Uh, but the medical examiner in that case was Dr. Frank Peretti.

Andrea 29:20

Oh, a different guy.

Paul G 29:21

Yeah. And the reason the corner piece matters in this example is whatever the body says next becomes the language investigators and juries live inside, right? Oh. Well, if you remember Sheffield running for governor, said this guy Petty shouldn't be there either.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Paul G 29:39

Yeah. But these guys were running our criminal investigations. They're the head man. They have to sign off every time somebody's been called a murderer.

Andrea 29:51

That's really scary if you think about it. Because I mean, what happens if a like a family has to push and push and push and get a grand jury or like get somebody else to do it, or like an order for justice to be served? Well, or at least their voice to be heard.

Paul G 30:05

Yeah.

Andrea 30:07

That's crazy.

Paul G 30:08

Yeah, and so this guy, he gets over and over and over and over again, has screwed up cases and had to re what I want to know is how many things has he done that weren't and no one cared to follow up because they're poor or something.

Andrea 30:30

Or how many of these cases have had people sitting on death row or people sitting in prison that have not been looked at to possibly be overturned?

The “Suicide” With Four Chest Shots

Paul G 30:39

How many cases are do we cover on true crime people from Arkansas that are just wrong on its fact when we can't see past it because all we can do is read the facts.

Andrea 30:51

Why doesn't the Innocence Project get involved in some of the cases behind to double check?

Paul G 30:55

I don't know.

Andrea 30:56

I mean, I would think that that would be like their bread and butter of winning, you know, innocence projects to get people, you know, off of death row or out of prison or do set wrongs, you know, right. I would think if you want to bolster that viewpoint that you would go after, oh, this is the incompetent guy. We're gonna go get fix his cases because we want to prove a point for lack of a better term.

Paul G 31:17

Exactly. Um yeah, it's like the the Olivia Janey Ward case, right? Fell off the porch at a party. Okay. Uh the circuit judge Joe John Cole granted request to change a death center certificate. Uh and it's like, wow, why, why another question I have, maybe this might answer what I just said.

Andrea 31:45

And uh cases that are rule rolled accidental, what happens to what the evidence collected? Does it get burned? Does it get put away? Does it get what happens to it?

Paul G 31:53

Well, you know, it depends on the police department.

Andrea 31:55

Because if you think about it, they gotta hold on to, I'm sure, a ton of stuff for I don't know how long, I'm guessing. You know, like I know medical records in the hospital, you gotta hold on those puppies for like a long period of time before you're allowed to archive them or even like shred them. So I'm hoping, guessing, crossing my fingers, that evidence like that is still held. But if it's an accident, do they even keep it?

Paul G 32:19

No, in an accident, they don't.

Andrea 32:21

So that may explain why some of these people uh won't get justice because they thought it was an accident when it wasn't. Right. And then there's no evidence to do anything with, so it's just sitting there.

Paul G 32:33

So there's another case, Randy Brady. Uh he was killed. And here's the newspaper. 87 death of Randy Brady of Little Rock. Malik ruled the death suicide, but the fan family insists he was killed. And they overturned that death certificate as well.

Andrea 32:54

How many cases are we at now?

Paul G 32:56

He he four, four total.

Andrea 32:58

Four total. That's we're too many.

Paul G 33:00

Um the problem with Randy Brady is I don't think he I don't think anybody ever cared about ran this guy, Randy Brady. So he he didn't I mean I'm looking here, it's eight eighty-four is when this happened. And I'm on uh on the new c newspapers archive as we speak because I'm like, I want to see this. You know? And most I can't even find anything on it. And that's the problem. That's what I'm thinking. Because I can't find anything on it, no one cared or followed up, right?

Andrea 33:35

That's that's awful.

Paul G 33:38

It is awful. And it's all because this guy said accident or suicide when it wasn't.

Andrea 33:46

I still can't get over the one where the guy shot himself, what, four times? Four times. Four times.

Paul G 33:49

Four times and through the heart ones.

Andrea 33:51

That's just I mean, come on.

Paul G 33:54

It's absolutely crazy, isn't it? Uh and after examining new information, uh, they said the manner of death could not be determined. More than likely, the m malik didn't do any documentation.

Andrea 34:08

So they can't make any determination, so it just sits there.

Paul G 34:11

Yeah. Yeah. He probably just looked at it and went, oh, yeah. And wrote it suicide.

Andrea 34:18

That's messed up.

Paul G 34:19

But the I I'm guessing that he didn't leave any of his he didn't do anything. Because there's nothing to track on this. It's like one of the state's little secrets. So who finally That means the Donna, Sue Nelton, and all these other ones that we talked about in the 80s?

Andrea 34:39

Yeah.

Paul G 34:40

It was him. He was the he was the deaf guy. He's the one that had to give that no wonder they're having troubles with these. I'll bet you they don't have any forensics from the body. On a lot of these cases. Just dawned on me. It's just the same guy. Every in every one of these deaths from 79 to 91.

Andrea 35:05

My gosh.

Paul G 35:06

That's all of the ones we covered so far.

Andrea 35:09

Yeah, I'd be curious to know how many cases he had his hands in over those years. Wow. I'm sure like quite a few.

Paul G 35:16

Independent pathologists all uh have been investigating this guy for years. Um he had to resign in 91 after families and some law enforcement officials accused him of botching autopsies. Which means I don't think he wrote it in anything down. It doesn't sound like there's anything.

Andrea 35:39

What the heck? I mean, wh what are you doing just like, oh, he's dead. Next one.

Paul G 35:43

The board agreed in March to hire outside pathologists to review all of the cases that were in dispute.

Andrea 35:52

Well, at least they did that.

Paul G 35:53

Well, they had to. Well, you'd have to exume them at this point, and if they're cremated, you're screwed.

Andrea 35:58

Yeah, I would I mean it's bad enough for a family to not know what happened to their loved one, you know, but then to come back and they have to be re-exhumed and like all go through that all over again. I would I would want it done just because I'd want justice, but I can only imagine like how turmoil that must be for a family.

Paul G 36:17

Well, and think about it this way these guys that are um the outside consultants, all they're doing is going through his paperwork. And if it's not documented correctly, because they can't go and review the body if he didn't fake take pictures, if he didn't take blood samples, if he didn't take tissue samples.

Andrea 36:36

So he must have really not documented anything for these people to be like kidding, that's gotta be what it is. Because they're like, I we gotta do something because I I got not you know, there's very I mean undetermined.

Paul G 36:47

Yeah.

Andrea 36:48

Wow.

Paul G 36:49

Isn't that crazy? And that's because we don't he didn't he didn't have to be a doctor to be in this job. It's you know, it sounds like a political appointee gone wrong.

Andrea 37:00

What what was he doing prior to this, I wonder?

Paul G 37:04

I don't know.

Andrea 37:05

What, working at McDonald's? I mean, seriously, what was it?

Paul G 37:08

It did.

Andrea 37:09

What makes you wake up one day and be like, oh my god, run for coroner?

Paul G 37:14

Well, I don't know. Let's see. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 37:17

I'm curious.

Systemic Safeguards And Failures

Paul G 37:19

Before being Arkansas coroner, it's lovely radio. You get to listen to somebody Google. It's part of it. Uh, he was a physician trained in pathology, a subspecialty in forensic pathology. He was served as a forensic pathologist state, Arkansas State Crime Lab, testified in homicide trials across Arkansas in court records and appellate appeal appellate I can't say it. Appellate. Appellate opinions from the 1990s forward. He is identified as a forensic pathologist and employed by the state crime lad. So he's still working, is this? Jesus.

Andrea 38:01

What?

Paul G 38:02

Jeez.

Andrea 38:03

This man has no business touching anybody. Anything. Anything.

Paul G 38:06

Peretti was not. Okay, so that was Paretti. Never mind. That's that's Peretti. That's a new one. I don't know when he left. Um let's see. Yeah. Copy. And paste. So that's the other guy. I don't know about him. You know, we really this is interesting. I wonder if the rules have changed. That would be nice to nice to know.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah.

Paul G 38:34

He was Egyptian.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Okay.

Paul G 38:36

Fall if uh Fami Fami Malik. I knew he was somewhere in that region. Born he's born in Egypt somewhere in the 1930s, earned his medical degree in Egypt in the that would have to be the 50s.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Okay.

Paul G 38:52

Right? What what what's Egypt known for in the 50s? Sadat? Anyway. Came to the United States for further training, completed training in pathology, and was later specialized in forensics, worked as a pathologist in New York and Mississippi before being hired in Arkansas. Prior to becoming Arkansas State Medical Examiner, he worked in hospital pathology settings and in forensic work connected to state systems.

Andrea 39:16

So he was trained, he was trained here as pathology.

Paul G 39:19

So he wasn't a political appointee with no training. He was a licensed physician physician with pathology credentials.

Andrea 39:26

He just didn't give a crap. Sounds like I don't know.

Paul G 39:29

I mean, he had to have passed his degree somewhere in the States and passed the test, or he couldn't, you know, you had to get certified. But obviously Maybe, I mean it's maybe, you know, maybe he maybe got grandfathered in. I don't know.

Andrea 39:42

I mean, we did have that controversy like several years ago about a pathologist at the VA here like messing up and like because he was drunk or whatever, but maybe he just didn't care. Wow. Or maybe he had a substance problem and just didn't really care.

Paul G 40:00

Or he just wasn't very good.

Andrea 40:03

Yeah. I mean, maybe he graduated medical school, I would hope, with not all D's, but you know, maybe.

Paul G 40:10

That's what my that's what my uncle said. He was a pediatrician, and that's what he said. You know what to call a doctor with three A's and two Bs? A doctor. Do you know what to call the same doctor with three C's and two D's?

Andrea 40:20

A doctor.

Paul G 40:21

A doctor. Exactly. And ever since he said that to me, I will not just go take a doctor's word for it. I research it and figure it out. They have the knowledge, they can tell me what they think, and then if I'm suspect, then I move on.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah.

Paul G 40:37

Uh he was hired by the Arkansas Health Department according to an Arkansas Democrat Gazette Capitol Bureau, then dated July 25th, 1992. He was appointed to the department's laboratory medical consultant. So he's still working murder cases.

Andrea 40:50

Today?

Paul G 40:52

In 1992.

Andrea 40:53

Oh, okay.

Paul G 40:54

Oh, God. He had been conducting research and sexually transmitted diseases. I had a friend in high school who was doing that, but he was doing it the hard way.

Andrea 41:03

So you're research and STDs to being a coroner.

Paul G 41:08

Yeah.

Andrea 41:09

That's a far jump.

Paul G 41:10

Uh no, that's what he's doing STDs after he was coroner. When he he resigned and they hired him again.

Andrea 41:17

They hired him again to be in tournament. Oh my God.

Paul G 41:19

He later then moved to Florida and died in Clearwater on August 21st, 2018, at 85.

Andrea 41:26

So basically, they just shipped him off from one post to another.

Paul G 41:30

Um no, I I guess maybe.

Andrea 41:35

I mean, if you're messing up that much where things are gonna overturn, why was his medical license not revoked?

Paul G 41:42

I don't, you know, if well, he's not he's not operating on people. But they're dead, and dead's a different category.

Andrea 41:50

Maybe, but still, I mean do no harm. He's not really doing any harm, but he is he is in a way doing harm to everyone else that's involved in it.

Paul G 42:00

I agree. I agree.

Andrea 42:02

But it's not the definition of medical harm per se.

Paul G 42:06

I would think, but so after he resigned as state medical examiner, Arkansas Health Department Director, Dr. Joycelyn Elders. Oh my god, she's in she's a the Clintons took her to Joycelyn Elders. They took her to the DC. She was she was over some government uh heavy duty, heavy duty federal government stuff, and she's not very nice. Uh in my opinion. Um they hired him to do sexually transmitted disease work. He still had an MD in pathology background. But why? I want to know why they hired him in the first place. You know?

Andrea 42:47

To hush it up.

Paul G 42:48

No, no, I'm talking about for the original job. I mean, what what credentials could he I mean, obviously he could speak English, but I mean, why there's a lot of America Arkansas doctors that could have done that job. Why did why did did nobody want to do it?

Andrea 43:07

You talking about his corner job?

Paul G 43:09

Yeah, yeah.

Andrea 43:10

But I mean, it's uh probably I don't know what it was like then, but it's not like a very glamorous job.

Paul G 43:16

Okay, here we go. So the record says that Clay White was the Arkansas Crime Lab director at the time, and he hired Malik the previous year as a deputy medical examiner. So he's basically he just got promoted into it. And then somebody retired and he just next in line. Yeah. He was just one of many people in like in Cook County, uh, he worked for the medical examiner's office there.

Andrea 43:44

So who had the um I guess pressure to finally make him resign?

Paul G 43:50

Who's like saying I think personally, um it was the screw ups of the cases and having to make the the death certificates? Change and they they they'd investigated thirteen of the deaths, but only could give enough information on th four of them to overturn and read and change the death certificate.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Okay.

Paul G 44:14

Because there wasn't an anything that they nothing suggestive of the other ten.

Andrea 44:21

So what do you think? The public and the governor.

Paul G 44:23

Public and then Bill Clinton is running for president of the United States.

Andrea 44:29

Oh.

Paul G 44:29

Yeah. And I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but you know, bad optics. And Joycelyn Edwards. Oh my gosh. I didn't know that.

Andrea 44:38

But why if you want to run for the president and you do win, we all know this. Or made him resign.

Paul G 44:51

Well, he gets rid of all the bad press.

Andrea 44:55

Ah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could see that.

Paul G 44:59

Jocelyn Edwards U.S. Surgeon General under Bill Clinton. He made that woman the U.S. surgeon general. That's what I thought. That's fine. I did not know she was from Arkansas.

Andrea 45:11

I was young when he was well, not young, I was in general.

Paul G 45:13

It blew it blows my mind because I wouldn't pay any attention.

Andrea 45:19

So do we have any changes or any developments from this that have hopefully?

Paul G 45:23

No, it's all fallen out. I mean, the problem is that, you know, you're left with whatever's written down, and if his notes sucked or they were wrong, and you have no proof that they were wrong because the body's gone, what are you gonna do?

Andrea 45:37

So all these unanswered questions for some of these families.

Paul G 45:39

They will always remain unanswered. And how many of these murders that they went to trial and convicted people, like the West Memphis three? Went to trial and convicted people were because of this BS going on here.

Andrea 45:54

It makes me wonder how many others is out there that don't have the money or the resources or the ability to appeal or you know.

Paul G 46:02

Correct.

Andrea 46:03

I agree with that. Because if you're a poor person from Arkansas and you get wrongly convicted, you're kind of screwed. You have a public defender, which is your right under our laws, but uh uh that doesn't mean that they necessarily will get fair, you know, yeah, justice.

Paul G 46:20

I agree. Weird. Anyhow, so what's coming up? Anything? Uh that's well, I the reason I wanted to do this episode is because recap, people are like, okay, this is interesting stuff, it's craziness, but what does this have to do with true crime? It has everything to do with true crime because this is the guy that signs off on it all.

Andrea 46:40

Yeah.

Paul G 46:41

And all these people that not the ones that are missing and never found, but all the ones that died, his hands are involved in everything from 79 to 91, 92. So it makes you wonder like did they even get do they have the pathology that they need?

Andrea 46:58

How many homicides were actually, like said, now unable to determine or determined.

Paul G 47:03

Yeah, and if he's so easy to say this guy wasn't killed, he was killed himself after shooting himself four times in the chest with a high powered That's mind blowing to me.

Andrea 47:13

That's a duh. I mean, we all know that that's a duh.

Paul G 47:15

He didn't even look. I mean, did he not just look?

Andrea 47:19

I mean, you can tell by hmm, that guy's got four bullet holes. Hmm. I would think that you would need no education in forensics to know that that is not a suicide.

Paul G 47:28

Yeah. I agree. I mean, that's crazy stupid. I mean, yeah. You nick that lung, you're not pulling that trigger again.

Andrea 47:38

No.

unknown 47:39

No.

Paul G 47:40

You hit an artery, you're not pulling your car again.

Andrea 47:42

No, you're not.

Paul G 47:44

The concussion alone could stop your heart. Because you'd have to have if you're gonna commit suicide with a handgun pressed up against your chest, and I'm assuming it's a handgun, that concussion of the powder and everything could stop your heart. Because you're gonna have it pressed right up against your chest because you're having to hold the gun backwards.

Andrea 48:01

Yeah, he definitely didn't shoot himself with a rifle. He wouldn't be able to reach it.

Paul G 48:04

Yeah, if that's the case, if it was a rifle, then we know that guy's an idiot.

Andrea 48:08

Well, we know he's an idiot because four times.

Paul G 48:09

Or getting paid off or something.

Andrea 48:11

Yeah, exactly.

Paul G 48:12

I mean, that's not right.

Andrea 48:14

No, that's messed up.

Paul G 48:16

Yeah. And then the two kids on the railroad track smoking pot got run over by a train.

unknown 48:20

No.

Paul G 48:21

No. But in his defense on that one, though, these kids were so badly destroyed by the train. Because you think, oh, they got run over by a train. What you don't understand is they got run over by every car on that train. And there's probably between sixty and a hundred cars. They got obliterated. Four metal train wheels on each car.

Andrea 48:50

Yeah, they got obliterated.

Paul G 48:52

Yeah. Yeah, that's a horrible way to go. Yeah, and the guy that had to clean it up was like, this is the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. Oh my god. Yeah, exactly. So in his defense, if he could have just put something else besides fell asleep on the train track, if he would have said undetermined, maybe they fell asleep on the train track from smoking weed because their TH sevel THC level was such and such.

Andrea 49:21

How are you gonna be able to tell THC levels? Their body's obliterated.

Paul G 49:24

Well, I I don't know.

Andrea 49:25

I mean, that's my point.

Paul G 49:26

I mean, I'm sure there's ways if you can get get enough blood out of the liver, maybe you can take a liver test, take a piece of liver and run it through a sp a spectrometer or whatever.

Andrea 49:34

I mean, I don't know.

Paul G 49:35

I uh spin it up and see what's in it.

Andrea 49:38

That is something that I'm over my wheel.

Paul G 49:42

Separate you know, separate it out and see what's in there. But at the time they didn't have mass spectrometers.

Andrea 49:47

They didn't have any of that stuff.

Paul G 49:49

No, but they they had to physically s take a sample, put it in a jar, heat it up, spin it, and test every liquid on layers after layer after layer. Yeah, because they have to separate everything. You do that with gravity a lot of times. Different molecules, way different, what way different things. Yeah, if he wouldn't have put it could be that maybe they were, but that's his form of undetermined, I don't know.

Andrea 50:16

Um but still, but geez.

Paul G 50:17

But four gunshots to the chest, though.

Andrea 50:19

That's the one where I'm like, no, no.

Paul G 50:22

I can't really pass on that one.

Andrea 50:24

No, that's uh uh are you stupid?

Paul G 50:28

Maybe, and we don't know. Maybe he nicked himself for it three times and then finally did it.

Andrea 50:34

Still, still.

Paul G 50:35

I mean it's hard. Try it, just pretend. I know get a squirt gun, one of your kids' squirt guns or something. That's what I'm saying. I was like It's not easy.

Andrea 50:42

I'm saying uh He could have missed that one just screams are you an idiot?

Lost Evidence And Undetermined Deaths

Paul G 50:49

There's always more to it than what we know. And that's the thing about true crime. You listen to people's opinions, you listen to the to the them give you this deal about this case.

Andrea 50:59

Theories.

Paul G 50:59

Yeah, and their opinion is generally shaped by what they've read. That's why we don't read those books.

Andrea 51:07

Yeah.

Paul G 51:08

We listen to the podcast, but we don't read those books because facts are the only thing that matters. When you're and but if the facts don't support it, then you shouldn't be going around saying that's the way it is. Conspiracy theories aren't as prevalent as people think they are. What's my line? I tell people that think the government's spying on them. I say, you're not that important.

Andrea 51:34

None of us are.

Paul G 51:35

No, they don't care what you're doing. And I never will. Honestly, unless you're president or have run a Fortune 500 company, then maybe you know.

Andrea 51:44

You make threats to the president, then they probably would care.

Paul G 51:46

Yeah, they're gonna come find your ass at that point.

Andrea 51:49

Yeah.

Paul G 51:49

Yeah. But regular people going back and forth to work, making dinner at night, going to movies.

Andrea 51:55

You know we're not that important.

Paul G 51:56

Drunk driving every now and again.

Andrea 51:58

Just pay our taxes, that's all they care about.

Paul G 51:59

And even then they don't care because most of us don't pay enough taxes for them to even notice.

Andrea 52:05

Maybe.

Paul G 52:05

$1,200 a year, who cares?

Andrea 52:07

Yeah.

Paul G 52:08

Nobody cares. The government's$32 trillion in debt, they're not gonna care.$1,200 they spent that in exhaling.

Andrea 52:18

Oh gosh. So what do you want to cover next week?

Paul G 52:21

I don't know. What do you think? We want to do some actual true crime or you want to do uh you want to find out why nuclear uh silos can't or not nuclear uh power plants can't melt down anymore. We can do that. I mean I know I I got all kinds of things that I'm interested in. That usually means I'm only the one I'm the only one interested in them.

Andrea 52:39

So Oh, I I don't know. I'm I just went from schoolwork to sitting down for this. I need a moment to think.

Paul G 52:46

That's why I asked you sure you want to do it right now?

Andrea 52:48

Let's do it.

Paul G 52:49

Yeah. That's what I was hoping you're saying, but not about the podcast. Oh my lord.

Andrea 52:53

What? We're gonna come up with something, probably some true crime. I don't know. Uh we'd appreciate your feedback or if there's anything you want us to cover.

Paul G 53:02

Or what do you think about the music we've been playing?

Andrea 53:04

Yeah, give us feedback on that.

Paul G 53:07

Yeah, this song I went and made it talk about a doctor that didn't know what he was doing. So if you go back and l listen to the lyrics, I think what I'm gonna do, thinking about this, if you like the music, I'm thinking I'm gonna put it on Patreon. And for like ten bucks or five bucks, you can then get all all the tracks as a download and keep them on your phone.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Yeah, why not?

Paul G 53:28

Yeah, that might be fun.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

That'd be fun.

Paul G 53:31

And also, too, if you want to just help us not uh worry about paying for this podcast anymore, you could go to our website, paulgnewton.com. That's P-A-U-L-G-N-E W-T-O-N.com, and look at the swag. The swag is really cool. I'm gonna have some new shirts up there probably this next week or two.

Andrea 53:54

What kind of shirts are you gonna? I don't I don't know what you're gonna put up there. I guess I need to find out until you make them.

Paul G 53:59

Right now we have one up there that's uh uh donuts or murder. Can't tell the difference.

Andrea 54:03

Oh yeah, I do remember that one, yeah.

Paul G 54:05

And then you have your cat one that you like. And then we have uh the hat as well.

Andrea 54:10

Oh yeah.

Paul G 54:11

This is all my oh my god, Paul stopped. Only MG Paul stopped. Yeah. Yeah. Because she says that a lot of times. Whenever I'm going off the hook.

Andrea 54:19

This is true.

Paul G 54:20

Yeah. And then in in reality, she just says she just looks at me with a grimace. I'm like, okay.

Andrea 54:27

What?

Paul G 54:30

And uh yeah, so go there and buy some stuff or just send us money, either way.

Andrea 54:35

Yeah, money's good.

Paul G 54:36

Yeah, just send us a check. You know, we'll catch it.

Andrea 54:39

Yeah, it helps us keep this running.

Paul G 54:41

Yeah, I think what's our budget? Our budget's what about 50 a month? Six no, it's about eighty-five a month to make this thing work. Yeah. Between all the software and crap that we have to do.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yeah, it's about right.

Paul G 54:51

And uh, so it'd be nice. Anyway. You can also email us at Paul G at Paulgnewton.com if you want to complain, that's fine too. Leave us a review, and if you're even if your review says you guys suck, that's okay. Leave a review. We like those kind of things because a review is a review, is a review, and the internet doesn't care. And so there you go. What?

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Nothing, nothing.

Paul G 55:13

All right, anything else?

SPEAKER_00 55:14

I think that's it.

Paul G 55:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Bye.

Paul G 55:17

Bye.