A Three-Year-Old Labeled Evil In The Arkansas Woods

In April 1978, three-year-old Stephanie Alana Hall was killed in the Ozark woods of Newton County, Arkansas by members of a small religious cult. When investigators asked why anyone would murder a child, the answer they heard was almost impossible to process: the group believed the girl had been declared “anathema.”

In their belief system, that meant she no longer belonged among the living.

In this episode we walk through what actually happened in that remote campsite near the Buffalo River. We look at the cult’s structure, the role of a teenage “prophet,” the religious language used to justify the decision, and the moment when belief crossed the line into murder.

We also follow the case through the courts, where testimony revealed how the group reached the decision to kill Stephanie and who ultimately carried it out.

It’s one of the strangest and most disturbing crimes in Arkansas history—and a reminder of how dangerous a closed belief system can become when no one inside it is willing to question the revelation.

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Transcript

Ozark Woods Cold Open

Paul G 2:18

Well, that's their problem now, isn't it? Because everyone here enjoys the true crime, don't they?

Andrea 2:23

Yeah, they do actually.

Paul G 2:24

Well, at least they better. If they don't, you're on the wrong podcast, man. I'm telling you right now.

Andrea 2:29

We've covered other stuff.

Paul G 2:31

Still. You know. So what were you doing? So with this case, I guess, is about 1978. What were you doing in 78?

Andrea 2:39

I was one.

Paul G 2:40

You're one?

Andrea 2:41

Yeah. I probably wasn't even quite.

Paul G 2:44

What'd you win?

Andrea 2:45

Uh I was like, I don't know, a baby brother soon. I don't know. I get yeah, in April, I guess April 78, I would have been like 14 months old, 15 months old, something like that. 16.

Paul G 2:59

I was four.

Andrea 3:02

Five. Yeah, I even asked my mom if she recognized this, and she said she didn't. So that's weird.

Paul G 3:07

I mean I'll always do that every time. I go to hit mute on my phone and I hit find my phone. So annoying. Oh well. This is live. We do not uh edit this. So if we screw up. Welcome to our world. We screw up a lot. Or she gets mad at me and yells.

Andrea 3:31

I don't yell.

Paul G 3:32

She was throwing plates the other day.

Andrea 3:33

I was not. Don't be lying to the listeners now.

Paul G 3:38

I'm just teasing to the listeners. I'm a tease.

Andrea 3:43

Okay.

Paul G 3:43

Anyhow, so 1978, yeah. Uh I was getting my Mickey Mouse. Well, it wasn't what what was this? April? So I probably was still sitting in my Mickey Mouse table and chairs that I got. I had one with Donald Duck. I like Donald Duck best because my grandfather's name was Donald, and I like ducks.

Andrea 4:03

Well, there you go.

Paul G 4:04

And uh but I was yeah, a little kid. I wasn't pooping my pants anymore, though. That's the good news. What?

Andrea 4:12

Okay. I was five. Well, you don't go to kindergarten in a diaper, so there's hope, yeah, for everybody.

Paul G 4:20

By five, I actually had to learn how to I had to to write and read at five. They weren't gonna let me move on with my life until I did that.

Andrea 4:31

This case, though, when you brought it up, I was like, there's a special place down below for people who are children.

Paul G 4:37

Well, and when we research stuff, sometimes I'm like, I asked AI to go and find us a crazy ass case.

Andrea 4:44

Yeah, this one fits the bill, in my opinion.

The Cult’s Origins And Claims

Paul G 4:46

And a lot of times when it it'll give us something back, and we're like, what? That's crazy. And then we fact check it and we're like and it doesn't exist, it just made it up.

Andrea 4:56

This one was real.

Paul G 4:57

Yeah, that crazy.

Andrea 4:59

I did do a little research about this, these people. I guess the Church of God in Christ through Holy Spirit was founded in 1972 in Florida by Royal Harris.

Paul G 5:12

Royale with cheese Harris. Oh god. No?

Andrea 5:17

No.

Paul G 5:17

Okay.

Andrea 5:18

But when I looked it up to say, see if this this group is still around, I couldn't find anything. But there is somebody that has a church of God in Christ that's I guess a legitimate minister somewhere in, I want to say, um, Texas.

Paul G 5:33

Really?

Andrea 5:34

So I'm thinking, well, it's a pretty generic name.

Paul G 5:38

I mean, anybody could come up with that.

Andrea 5:40

But it's like an African-American, like uh Pentecostal church.

Paul G 5:44

Speaking in tongues.

Andrea 5:45

But I was like thinking, are these people still around? Because I was just curious. And then it pops up, and I kept thinking, this poor soul, if anybody's looking up this case, is gonna instantly think that they're part of it.

Paul G 5:54

Did you kill somebody?

Andrea 5:55

And his last name is Harris.

Paul G 5:57

Might be I wonder if it's the same people.

Andrea 5:59

It says it's not.

Paul G 6:00

Oh, okay.

Andrea 6:01

But I was like, oh man.

Paul G 6:03

This poor guy. Well, Stephanie Elena Hall was just a little girl, and she was here and actually Springdale and Rogers to begin with, wouldn't she?

Andrea 6:13

I I want to say that I read somewhere that they were like from so I want to say somewhere like Texas initially, and they wanted to come to Springdale and Rogers area because I guess at the time it was rural and quiet, which I guess in the 70s it was.

Paul G 6:25

Yeah, there wasn't anything going on here.

Andrea 6:27

Which, because I kept thinking, man, they were like right around here when we were like, you know, growing up and stuff.

Paul G 6:33

Yeah.

Andrea 6:34

But I read somewhere that in Texas, after all this happened, they got something about their uh church affiliation revoked from the Texas governor.

Paul G 6:42

I hope so.

Andrea 6:43

Yeah. But I guess what was interesting to me about this case is Goldie the mom. She's 22, right?

Paul G 6:51

She's 22. Sounds like when you say Goldie, I imagine like an 85-year-old woman.

Andrea 6:57

I think of Goldie Hahn. That's all I think of.

Paul G 7:00

I've known a few Southerners that give weird names, like Goldie. But anyway.

Andrea 7:05

But um, and then we had what Royal Harris is the guy that with cheese.

Paul G 7:10

Oh gosh.

Andrea 7:11

That's the founder. And then we have Winston Van Harris, which is 31 the son.

Paul G 7:16

That guy sounds like he should be an heir to an oil fortune.

Andrea 7:19

Oh no, exactly.

Paul G 7:20

Um Winston Van Harris.

Andrea 7:23

And then we have Stephen Mark Harris, which is also the son.

Paul G 7:26

Oh yeah. Okay.

Andrea 7:28

So that's our players here.

Paul G 7:30

I wonder what happened to the kids. That's the other thing. I don't know if we looked it up.

Andrea 7:33

I couldn't find really a whole lot as far as like what happened.

Paul G 7:36

I would change my name, man. There'd be no way.

Andrea 7:38

So what do we got on our little timeline here?

Paul G 7:41

Well, I Winston Van Harris and three co-defendants were charged with first degree murder because they decided that they were going to hold their own cult, basically.

Andrea 7:54

Yeah, well what's interesting though, is they like what I researched is Royal was married to uh a woman, which I I guess she passed away because I couldn't find anything on her. And so a former Methodist minister, and they thought that their son Stephen, the youngest, was a prophet with divine authority. Wow. And they have beliefs centered on because I was curious, like, what do these people believe? Impending apocalypse, nuclear war, and Christ's return, which you know, people in religious faith of Christians believe that Christ is going to return, but like nuclear war and impending apocalypse, that can really kind of like I there's people now that believe that exactly. So um, I don't know what happened to the mom and all this. I couldn't find anything, but these are you know, they decided, well, let's come to Northwest Arkansas.

Paul G 8:41

Yeah.

Andrea 8:42

But then I found out reading the research is that they were kind of being very abusive to poor little Stephanie.

Paul G 8:50

They didn't like her for some reason. And I guess she smell funny or something. No. I'm just saying, there's gotta be some reason, man.

Andrea 8:57

You know, and so they kept finding bruises and stuff on.

Paul G 9:00

Poor little girl.

Andrea 9:01

And so they got a CPS case, and then the store, the timeline that I could find is all of a sudden they're in the Buffalo River, National River place.

Paul G 9:09

Yeah, up there in Newton County, which is extremely rural.

Andrea 9:14

Oh, I can only it's like that way now. I can only imagine it was like in the 70s.

Paul G 9:17

Petty Jean Mountain is one of the most uh rural and iconic places for people who like to go outdoors. Because you get on top of Petty Jean and you can see 60 miles, well, 30 miles coverture of the earth, but you can see forever. But even now with the Buffalo National Roll, we we've been out there, there's like no cell phone coverage, there's like zero cell phone coverage, which that happens in lots of places, but it's like Yeah, we went to the Buffalo River and about when you there's a big windy thing to get into the into the into the park, and then you go down. You have to go up probably what you're at what maybe two twenty five hundred feet.

Andrea 9:55

Yeah, something like that.

Paul G 9:56

I don't think where we're at now is like twelve hundred feet. So you have to go up twenty five hundred feet, and then you go down and you're like eight hundred or nine hundred feet above sea level. I mean it's hit the bottom of it.

Andrea 10:08

It's beautiful out there, and it's gorgeous, and you have campgrounds and stuff like that, and it's like you're definitely like roughing it out there.

Paul G 10:17

Yeah, so I guess these guys, uh their beliefs took a small breakaway Christian sect, uh kind of apocalyptic and prophetic authority, kind of layered on everything. Uh not a mainstream church, I guess.

Andrea 10:33

I wouldn't say so.

Paul G 10:34

Um they the documents that I could find says and a piece together says that the group used to the term anath anathema for Stephanie, and the Arkansas Supreme Court record says the defendants claimed they killed her because she was like possessed or something. I'm not sure. But the harder part of the group is the broader theology because the court opinion didn't really lay out a full creed that they live by. Um, but the the reporting says that the group was called, like you said, the Church of God in Christ through the Holy Spirit Inc., Inc. Inc., which means they had to file incorporation. That's taken a little far, but whatever. And then it was founded uh by Royal Edith and with their son Stephen.

Andrea 11:25

Yeah, the their younger son.

Paul G 11:26

Stephen was a prophet.

Andrea 11:28

Yeah, their younger son was a prophet.

Paul G 11:29

He was a prophet when he'd show up. He said, God said, Let there be bubblegum.

Andrea 11:35

Oh my god. What? I wouldn't be surprised if a cult would say that, to be honest.

Paul G 11:39

Little kid, he's like, I want bubblegum. If I tell them God instructed you to buy bubblegum.

Andrea 11:45

So what was this little girl doing? Was she just literally being a typical little on, I mean, on me little girl? Like kids when they're three, they're like the terrible twos don't just last when they're two. They last until they're at least four, in my opinion. But you know, yeah. You know, they're getting into stuff, they're they're showing their defiance. They just thought, okay, you're possessed.

Paul G 12:03

Yeah, you're going to die. I've met some kids like that. You want to it would be a very good explanation if they're possessed, but no, they just had a lot of sugar.

Andrea 12:12

Well, yeah. But what I was like reading is they just like up and left, and they had left from having a little trailer compound thing in Northwest Arkansas to like intents and things like that on the buffalo.

Paul G 12:23

Yeah, yeah. So um they describe their beliefs, like you were saying, of impending apocalypse. They had to be strictly obedient to the the founder and the prophet.

Andrea 12:38

Was it how old was the prophet? I want to say a word somewhere that he was underage.

Paul G 12:42

Oh, yeah, he was he wasn't that old. And the idea they had the idea that demonic influences could be identified and purged. So you can exorcise people. And I you know, what's the worst thing that happens when you get an exorcism going on by especially people who have no idea what an exorcism actually should be? It's abuse.

Andrea 13:07

It's abuse, it's torture. I mean, they I've heard of like there's certain cases that we've all read like in the genre of things that have been like was what was like Annalise something where her parents in Germany got like prosecuted because Oh yeah, they were mean to her. But they said that you know she was possessed and she died of malnutrition and a dehydration, and she was like bare skin and bone. So I mean, I don't there's rules behind that, but I mean uh these people but okay, if she's possessed, then in I would think in their belief system, exercise the demons and let the three-year-old live.

Paul G 13:42

Yeah, just get a treadmill.

Andrea 13:43

Oh my god.

Paul G 13:44

Is that the wrong kind of exercise?

Andrea 13:45

That's the wrong kind of exercise. But you know, I'm thinking like you didn't have to kill her.

Paul G 13:50

I don't know, a bow flex, maybe.

Andrea 13:52

Oh gosh, stop.

Paul G 13:55

So um check this out, though. That they believe they were purified remnant, separated from the world. They were better than everyone else in the world.

Andrea 14:08

And not to scream cult.

Paul G 14:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, they were guided by prophetic authority and entitled to identify spiritual contamination inside of their group. Entitled.

Andrea 14:21

Oh, so they were forced to. If you were doing something that they didn't like or you didn't like them, then like, oh, you're possessed.

Paul G 14:27

Yes, yes, yes. But and once little girl Stephanie was labeled that way, uh, the normal morality didn't count anymore. It imploded.

Andrea 14:39

So thou shalt not kill just went out the window?

Paul G 14:41

Yeah, obviously.

Andrea 14:43

Isn't that kind of like the Ten Commandments of the United States?

Paul G 14:46

So they they they weren't thinking about about her like they were her parents at this point. They were thinking about her like she needs uh she needs to be exercised, and the doctrine outranked any mercy then.

Andrea 15:04

So they basically just didn't think of her as a human.

Paul G 15:08

Yeah, exactly. Um the church beliefs were not normal church beliefs at all. They were just shit they made up, is what it is what it ended up being.

Andrea 15:17

And that's kind of every cult. Jim Jones was kind of that way. I mean, that's all of them.

Paul G 15:21

Yeah, absolutely. Um so and but this is do you know exactly where this was? Um where they started or Where where they ended up.

Andrea 15:34

Uh they ended up like in the very end of where they ended up is like I guess like in the Buffalo National River, they pretty much like they of course they I read that she they shot her eight times. Wow. And they stuffed her remains in a mesh bag in a five-gallon bucket and then shallowly buried her.

Paul G 15:52

The the prophet was 17 years old.

Andrea 15:54

17? Yeah. Oh gosh. So basically he just like, she's gotta die. Okay, take her in the woods and shoot her. I mean where's her mother and all this?

Paul G 16:04

She's right there with him.

Andrea 16:07

I mean, you give birth to a child. I would like to think that no matter how strong of conviction you have in religion, that you would not turn against your own.

Paul G 16:18

I don't know. I've seen a lot of kids that I would uh I'd still say that they're a demonic.

Andrea 16:24

You think all children are demonic. Well, not all of them.

Paul G 16:27

Some of them are fun, but those are probably the ones that are possessed.

Andrea 16:32

But it's just like I I I I don't there's a special place, you know, with Satan that you need to be if you're gonna hurt a child.

Paul G 16:43

So they started out here, right?

Andrea 16:46

I thought they started out in Texas.

Paul G 16:48

Oh, did they start out in Texas?

Andrea 16:49

Yeah.

Paul G 16:50

So they they're an offshoot of another one, right?

Andrea 16:53

I couldn't find that. I found out that this little oh, what's his face? Uh, where's my notes at? Uh Royal Harris just decided that they just wanted to move from Texas to Northwest Arkansas. I couldn't find really anything as to why, or maybe maybe they got busted for child abuse down there and they came up with the.

Paul G 17:11

No, I think it may be if I'm if I'm thinking about so the reporting that I have, the group seems to have started as a small breakaway religious sex, like I said. Um and the same source says that the group then drifted west first to Baton Rouge. Oh, okay, um and then later in the Northwest Arkansas looking for more seclusion. So they wanted to get away from everybody. Well, of course they do. They're beating the crap of their kids, you know. Um and they appear to have started a family-led isolated religious movement, basically. It's just family. What are they gonna do for repeat? You know, like they're not gonna get any more members. How are they gonna get new members?

Andrea 17:56

I mean, I don't remember anything around of course I was born.

Paul G 17:58

Abalachia, come on.

Andrea 18:00

I mean, I don't remember like anybody telling me that they're out there like preaching on the corner to come join.

Discovery By A Game Warden

Paul G 18:07

Yeah. So um they were caught because of I mean, what did they do? Just step over the body? What did they find?

Andrea 18:17

I found out that that basically like some game warden was basically out there hunting turkey, and he thought something was a little suspicious at their campsite.

Paul G 18:25

Walked over a bunch of turkeys, sounds like to me. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea 18:28

And he recorded their vehicle license plate and he called the authorities.

Paul G 18:32

I really couldn't find like specifically what he saw or they say that Stephanie's body, I'm doing I'm doing live research here. The steady's bot Stephanie's body was found near the Colts' campsite.

Andrea 18:42

Yeah.

Paul G 18:42

So he he found her, and the case appears to have closed in on the group after that. Contemporary reporting says her body was discovered on April, shot multiple times, wrapped in what the hell? Wrap her in plastic for and stuffed it in a bucket, I guess to keep it from smelling, I suppose.

Andrea 18:59

But okay, here here's my thought process. If you're going to think that she's a possess a possessed person and she's not human, why would you put her next to your campsite?

Paul G 19:13

Right.

Andrea 19:14

I mean, I'm I'm not trying I'm glad they got caught, obviously, but you know what I'm trying to say is like I and we're glad that you know people that commit crimes are stupid, but you know, it's like why?

Paul G 19:26

I well, why would you kill somebody in the first place?

Andrea 19:29

I guess in their eyes, she needed to die because she was possessed.

Paul G 19:33

I shot her nine times.

Andrea 19:34

I think once would get the demon out, wouldn't you think?

Paul G 19:37

Once for every year she's been alive, I guess. Um it's so they had there was there was there were ten people there in this camp. Ten.

Andrea 19:49

Ten. There's a small little group. I mean, look at Jim Jones.

Paul G 19:52

It was more than just four or five, you know, it wasn't just like mom and dad and sister and brother. It was there's a lot. Uh Royal Harris, Winston Van Harris, Mark Harris, Suzette Freeman. Uh they're the ones that were and then Goldie, of course, was looked at. And then my gosh, what the the core people, yeah, we know we know how many core people were there, but there were ancillary followers. Why didn't they say anything?

Andrea 20:23

Um, maybe they didn't know. Or maybe if they did know, maybe they just assumed with the ideology, ideology that they did the right thing, but they got the demon out. My problem is why don't you just exercise it, not kill it? Right. You know, but I'm sorry, I don't I don't get this. I mean I'm glad they got caught.

Paul G 20:41

Exactly. So, and were did they try to do some like exorcisms or something, or they just started to kill her?

Andrea 20:48

I couldn't find anything. They just figured she was possessed. Let's go kill her. That's crazy stupid.

Paul G 20:54

And uh I mean, if anyone's seen the exorcist movie, I mean so I guess they were having religious uh discussions inside the group about revelations and st with and but they like immediately jumped to killing her.

Andrea 21:10

Yeah, I I I would think you're but like I said, maybe they don't think she's human at that point.

Paul G 21:16

But just because she was like ADHD or something? What if she was inbred? I don't even know.

Andrea 21:22

Maybe she's a three-year-old that's just being like little three-year-olds do and you know gotta argue with you.

Paul G 21:27

She's three, not nine, right?

Andrea 21:28

Yeah, she's three. It's gonna argue with you and she doesn't want she doesn't want to put her shoes on. I mean, that's what three-year-olds do.

Paul G 21:33

Your three-year-olds did a lot of that stuff.

Andrea 21:35

Oh, yeah.

Paul G 21:36

Like waking up one night and one of them's eating all the butter in the fridge.

Andrea 21:39

Yeah, I mean, that's they're just they're three. They're they're figuring out their little independence and they think they can do stuff when they can't. And I mean, that that's a three-year-old for you.

Paul G 21:48

Man, and they just immediately they just that they didn't even try. Uh they didn't even try an exorcism, they didn't try to cleanse her. They didn't do any of these things. They just decided, no, she's gotta go.

Andrea 22:04

I did read somewhere though where they burned her toys thinking that might help. And I was like, no, if she's a feisty three-year-old, that's just gonna make her mad.

Paul G 22:10

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Especially if she's, you know, obviously borderline crazy if she's around these people.

Andrea 22:19

Well, think about the little girl we have in church. She's maybe two.

Paul G 22:22

Yeah.

Andrea 22:23

You know, she doesn't want to sit still.

Paul G 22:25

She's not yeah, she's not gonna understand.

Andrea 22:26

She's adorable, but you she's just like, I don't want to sit still. I'm gonna lay on the floor. She talks to her and I mean she's she's two or three. I mean, come on, she's that's what they do.

Paul G 22:36

Well, they held her so that when they burned the toys, they had held her hand over the fire until it blistered.

Andrea 22:43

I did read that. Were they thinking if she didn't blister, then therefore she's not possessed? Wow. Because you know, back in the day when people used to think that people were witches, if they like floated, then they had the they were a witch or yeah, they sank, they weren't.

Paul G 22:57

I wonder if the satanic panic was just starting around around here, I think. I wonder if that had anything to do with this.

Andrea 23:05

It might have. I mean, we all know that that's kind of a stupid thing that happened, but people fed into it. I mean, the West Memphis III, we have this case as an example, and other ones where they thought, you know.

Paul G 23:17

Yeah, but the West Memphis III was until the 90s.

Andrea 23:20

It was going on a while.

Paul G 23:22

That was a while ago.

Andrea 23:22

A while to, you know, yeah, correlate, but this they still thought, you know, they were, you know, satanic panic listening to rock music, and these people probably thought of containers.

Paul G 23:33

Well, the satanic panic was in the late 80s, early 90s.

Andrea 23:36

So this was too early for that.

Paul G 23:38

Yeah. Okay. It's just these people just fat off themselves. But it was the era of cults as well.

Andrea 23:45

Yeah.

Paul G 23:45

And the era of serial killers.

Andrea 23:47

Yeah, and it was an era of people wanting to find something out of mainstream religion.

Paul G 23:52

Yeah.

Andrea 23:53

The hippies, and uh granted it's a little bit later in the 70s, but I mean, people were like with Jim Jones cult popped up. Who else popped up?

Paul G 24:01

We had Kool-Aid band.

Andrea 24:03

Oh gosh.

Paul G 24:04

What?

Andrea 24:05

People were like wanting to find things outside of the norm.

Paul G 24:10

I wonder what kind of things this teenage prophet was professing.

Andrea 24:14

I could not find anything. I I'm kind of curious myself. I mean, if you sit okay, if I'm an adult and I'm going to service and I see like some 17-year-old up there, like who doesn't even have a clue about what life is, and you're sitting there telling me like all these wonderful, like prosthetizing type of stuff, I'd be like, dude, you're 17.

Paul G 24:36

Yeah.

Andrea 24:37

But you and I are also different.

Paul G 24:39

Yes, we are very different. Because I could have been called a prophet, but instead I wanted them to all die and burn. So I didn't talk to them. What?

Andrea 24:49

Prophet of women?

Paul G 24:50

Yeah. No, uh yeah, I can go with that. When do I, you know, I mean, if I was still, you know, a young man, I'd be like, when do we start?

Andrea 24:59

Oh my gosh.

Paul G 25:00

What? At least I'm honest.

Andrea 25:02

This is true.

Paul G 25:03

So I guess he said that he uh said his statements were divine revelations, not opinions. Uh and the adults in the group decided decided, yes, we'll listen to this 17-year-old acne testosterone-filled boy who probably just wants to meet chicks.

Andrea 25:23

Yeah, probably.

Paul G 25:24

More than likely. Um he said that they could be spiritually judged by him.

Andrea 25:32

Oh, that's scary.

Paul G 25:33

Yeah. Uh they believe there were they he believed he was the chosen one. Which whenever where have we heard that a hundred times?

Andrea 25:42

In every cult out there.

Paul G 25:43

I'm the chosen one. Did you not know that?

Andrea 25:45

David Koresh used to say the same thing.

Paul G 25:46

Yes, he did. He was the prophet.

Andrea 25:49

Mm-hmm.

Paul G 25:50

And uh I'm I'm just prophetic. I think there's a difference.

Andrea 25:56

Yes.

Paul G 25:57

We'll go with that.

Andrea 25:58

Yeah.

Paul G 25:59

Um, and then you know, I mean, he was like the kid. This I who gives their authority to a 17-year-old?

Andrea 26:08

I would think like maybe the dad, the founder's like, oh wow, my son is like the prophet, and oh how wonderful that is.

Paul G 26:16

Give me your money. Give me your money or your and your harem. I need my harem.

Andrea 26:21

I mean, who knows? Maybe these people gave up everything. If they're living in tents and like campers or whatever, they you don't really have a whole lot of stuff. How do they afford food? I mean, how do they how do these people like live? Like in Colts in general, like if you're given how do they how do they function? Are they on food stamps? I mean, what are you doing?

Paul G 26:42

So the the park ranger, uh, he found them, right?

Andrea 26:46

Yeah. The game warden guy.

Paul G 26:49

And did did it was he like he just stumbled over the bunny?

Andrea 26:53

That's kind of the impression I got from reading it. He's like this, it looks a little suspicious. I'm gonna write down their license plates and call this in. Yeah, and then from there, I don't know what happened if a whole entire posse went up there.

Paul G 27:04

It's not recorded. That's the thing about it, is it's this it's not recorded.

Andrea 27:10

No, I couldn't find anything. Like, what's suspicious? Like, did you find her? Did you just find like, were they like shooting game illegally? Is that what we call suspicious? I mean, he's you know, I mean, what are they doing?

Paul G 27:21

Wow. And the four members, it's like not giving me any inform any more information. Uh about this guy.

Andrea 27:32

I did read though that when they got arrested, they uncovered 15 to 20 weapons and 2,000 rounds of ammo.

Paul G 27:38

Wow.

Andrea 27:39

I mean, what do you need that much?

Paul G 27:41

Well, if you're Koresh or somebody like that, you need all that.

Andrea 27:44

I guess if they're like Janet Reno's after you.

Paul G 27:55

And so they had the guns. So they were they were righteous cult.

Andrea 28:00

I did read this though, and I don't know that two other cult members were arrested en route to kidnap children from a related family member in Missouri.

Paul G 28:11

Wow.

Andrea 28:12

Now I couldn't find anything else on more on this. Like, kidnap children for what? Uh what reason would you kidnap them? You think like maybe every family member of them is possessed? I mean, why are you kidnapping these?

Paul G 28:24

They need more members. Are they gonna kidnap kids? I mean Well, you can't you kidnap the adults, you're just gonna escape. You gotta, you know, I mean, you gotta you have to beat them for about six months to a year before you can get them in the Stockholm syndrome, and then you can keep them as a as a cult member.

Andrea 28:40

But I'm thinking, like, why why are you taking kids?

Paul G 28:43

Well, you know, you have like I said, how are they gonna breed? We need more people in my cult because now there's not enough of us going out and working every day for me to sit around and drink moonshine and profet prophesies.

Andrea 28:56

I guess I think kids, I think of like a six-year-old, but kids could be but anybody under the age of 17. But you're gonna go kidnap them? I mean uh you don't think you're gonna get a you know caught for that, too?

Paul G 29:07

I mean I just can't believe they were out turkey hunting with the the the two guys. Yeah. Uh Parker uh Forest Ranger, whatever he was, and his buddy. They were just out there doing whatever. Yeah, we don't care. So the uh cult um so I was doing a little research here on the other cult members being arrested while trying to kidnap kids, and only found one secondary source.

Andrea 29:33

Okay.

Paul G 29:33

That says two other cult members headed to Missouri to kidnap children from a related family were arrested separately, but there's no primary court record or can or or any wire report or confirming that detail. So it's it's somebody probably said it in the brumer mill and it ended up in the it ended up in the thing.

Andrea 29:52

Okay.

Paul G 29:53

So yeah.

Andrea 29:54

That makes more sense.

Paul G 29:55

Yeah, I don't think that happened because if it did, we would be able to get a source on it. And the source that I'm finding is uh case mine. And I it Robert Robert Dudley? I don't know what he's doing. Uh yeah, we've held on compliance with rule twenty four. We held a substantial compliance, was sufficient in that case. Subsection A was compiled. It doesn't look like there's Hickman and Perdle. Uh so I don't think there was anything that happened here. Yeah, I'm not finding anything that I can that I can cite for them going and kidnapping other kids. Interesting. Isn't that weird?

Andrea 30:50

That is weird.

Paul G 30:51

Why would it get in the zeitgeist if it's This is why you can't believe everything you see or read on the internet?

Sentences Pleas And Releases

Andrea 30:57

This is true. But I saw that and I was like, I didn't find anything else on it, but I was like, hmm, I just cut this and put it in here.

Paul G 31:03

So it's Winston Van Harris versus the state of Arkansas.

Andrea 31:09

Yeah, that's the um Well what didn't he go to jail for this? Yes, he did.

Paul G 31:13

And did they get the murder? Uh uh they get uh um death penalty.

Andrea 31:18

Uh it looks like Royal Harris was sentenced to life. That was the founder. Yeah. Stephen the son was sentenced to life. But Winston Harris took a plea deal for first degree learner with the firearms and got 50 years plus 15 for the firearm. And suppose we read somewhere how that may have gotten overturned because of um well Goldie got let loose, didn't she? Oh, yeah. Goldie got second degree murder.

Paul G 31:43

Yeah.

Andrea 31:44

And she only served two years in a women's facility.

Paul G 31:46

And then they they found there was something wrong with their arrest, didn't they?

Andrea 31:50

I didn't see that.

Paul G 31:51

Oh so Winston Van Harris, he pled guilty to first-degree murder and got 50 years plus 15 for the firearm firearm enhancement. Uh Royal, uh, he's the guy that actually shot Stephanie. He was convicted of murder. Uh he received life sentences, which he and so he's still in jail. Or he died in prison. Goldie, most accounts say she received a much shorter sentence, around five years, likely because she did not carry out the killings. And then Stephen Mark Harris, the prophet, because he was 17 at the time, the legal outcome was different unless consistently reported. Some sources indicate he was treated differently due to age, but the exact sentencing record is still sealed in the courts.

Andrea 32:37

Okay.

Paul G 32:38

What's interesting walking around today, he'd be living right next to us.

Andrea 32:41

I did see something interesting now how he got sentenced to life, and then I did read something about how he got released in 2009.

Paul G 32:48

Really? Well, he had they had he was 17, so yeah, it back then. Yeah, you would be this the way our way states dealt with minor offenders, offenders offenders who are minors, and he would still be, was that you didn't you got let let loose early.

Andrea 33:04

Yeah. But uh Winston Ben Harris was released in 2003.

Paul G 33:09

Really?

Andrea 33:10

Yeah. That's the guy that took the plea deal.

Paul G 33:13

So he did well. I thought he got 50 years.

Andrea 33:15

50 years plus 15. Uh he got out for good behavior, if I remember correctly.

Paul G 33:19

Wow. Again, he could be living next door and we wouldn't even know it.

Andrea 33:22

That's the creepy part.

Paul G 33:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He would be a wow, he'd be old now.

Andrea 33:26

Yeah, he would all these people would be. Um, I am curious though, if I couldn't really find anything about what happened to Goldie, as far as like, did she have any more children? Did she I'm I'm guessing based upon like she obviously didn't pop up in the news or nothing, that she probably just lived a very quiet life.

Paul G 33:47

I know why they I I know why they let him go. He's probably half sickly, and in because he's 80 years old now.

Andrea 33:53

Oh yeah.

Paul G 33:54

He's yeah. 20 years ago, 76, he was 60.

Andrea 33:59

I wonder though, if this Stephen Mark Harris, who's the prophet, if he's out there doing another cult again.

Paul G 34:05

Hmm. He might.

Andrea 34:07

I couldn't really find anything. Right? But it's a very common name. And it's very common. So are you gonna like think he's gonna go back to the original, you know, cult of God?

Paul G 34:17

You know, and he might just be he may be like, no, I got I went and learned how to network computers when I'm working now under a different name.

Andrea 34:26

But I couldn't find anything as far as like what like I said in the beginning, what happened to this church, other than it's linked to an poor guy in a Texas.

Paul G 34:33

It's nothing to do with this. It's not him. Well, and these are white folk. Yeah. So uh and yeah, can't find him. I I fight if he's smart, he asked the judge to allow him to change his name. If he's smart. But if you think you're God would tell him to change his name.

Andrea 34:54

God would yeah, I would well, I would hope that God slash common sense slash I like, you know, ignored mentally ill.

Paul G 35:01

I mean he he told him to kill her, but he was 17 and stupid and didn't understand because he's I mean, it's really easy to get into that. It's like the guards at Auschwitz. You know, they're starving these people and killing these people, but they just said no, it's what we're supposed to do. Because they were told that they were bad people and they were they were disease. So it's possible that you know, I mean you can't just hold it against somebody like that. I mean, you have to, obviously, but you can't just say they should have known better.

Andrea 35:38

Well, I mean, who knows? Maybe his dad, Mr. Royal, is like, hey, you're the prophet. At like age three or whatever, or since birth, and he just grows up thinking like he's the prophet.

Paul G 35:49

Yeah.

Andrea 35:50

I mean, maybe he kind of was brainwashed himself.

Paul G 35:53

This is absolutely insane. They just killed the little girl for no reason.

Andrea 35:57

Yeah, just no reason.

Paul G 35:58

Just acting up. I'd love to be able to get one of them on the record just to see if they could tell me exactly what she was doing. I mean, was she devini divining stuff?

Andrea 36:10

I think she's probably just being a typical three-year-old girl.

Paul G 36:13

More than likely. She's three. They're crazy at three. They're they don't have at three years old, the developmental psychology tells you that the they have. I mean, a three-year-old can't a three-year-old can tell you that the object, if you have an object and you hide it behind a curtain, to the three-year-old, that object's still there. But as a just to show you how the developmental process works, a one-year-old, if you show them an object, you put it behind the curtain, they can't understand that that object didn't just disappear into the nothingness.

Andrea 36:46

Yeah.

Paul G 36:46

They don't know it's just behind the curtain. But by three, they develop that. So the three-year-old, she has no idea about anything.

Andrea 36:55

She's in the woods at Buffalo River, and she's three. I mean, who all maybe she was wandering off and they were getting mad. I mean, who knows?

Paul G 37:04

You know, she could have been shedding her clothes. I'm not wearing that. Yeah, like the kids do that.

Andrea 37:09

I remember my kids, they never matched. Their clothes never matched because it was less of an argument and a fight for me as a parent, just to let them wear whatever.

Paul G 37:19

Yeah.

Andrea 37:20

And if they look like punky brewster on crack, then that was fine.

Paul G 37:24

Yeah, who cares? There's three.

Andrea 37:25

There are three.

Paul G 37:26

Right.

Andrea 37:27

Though other parents would be more judgmental. I didn't care. I was like, you try and get these three kids out of the house without losing your mind.

Paul G 37:35

So Kay Mercer, he's got a nice little catch on this.

Andrea 37:39

Oh, yeah. What is it?

Paul G 37:40

AI FBI man. Wannabe FBI man. Uh, he says this was the cold killing, but not in the cartoon sense like people use.

Andrea 37:50

Right? Okay.

Paul G 37:51

It was a it was a purity execution. The group did not kill Stephanie because a three-year-old posed any real danger. They killed her because the their belief system had reached the point where the child could be reclassified as contamination.

Andrea 38:07

That makes sense.

Paul G 38:08

It's the same, yeah. It's the same group think as the guards at Auschwitz.

Andrea 38:12

Yeah.

Paul G 38:13

It's the exact same. It's the same. You might not think it's the same, but it's exactly the same.

Andrea 38:19

They're taught to think a certain way, and therefore they're taught to think that she's possessed.

Paul G 38:24

So behaviorally, three things matter. First, the use of the word anathum or anathema. Anathema. Tough. Tells you this was not an impulsive murder. So Cade Cade believes they sat around and discussed it for a very long time before they actually killed her. It was processed through internal theology.

Andrea 38:50

Makes sense.

Paul G 38:51

Yeah. And the revelation chain that they believed in. Mark Harris receives Assozette confirms Royal X, Winston uh accompanies, basically.

Andrea 39:05

Okay. And what what does the mom not have any like fighting argument over this?

Paul G 39:10

I don't know. I mean, you would think uh that the mom is Goldie, right?

Andrea 39:15

Yeah.

Paul G 39:16

She really needs to I she, you know, she probably regrets that to this day.

Andrea 39:22

Well, she was in her 20s and she's run a bunch of men that are like, you know, a lot older than her. She probably just figures, okay, they know better.

Paul G 39:30

The sequence is clear enough, he says. Discussion came before action, action came before concealment. Concealment was crude, which suggests they were not criminally sophisticated, that it was all about their ideology, which is arguably worse. Uh, they were sophisticated killers to hide evidence, but uh the the most dangerous cult belief is not that the world will end, but it is that innocence can be declared impure. That's interesting. The AI came up with that.

Andrea 40:03

That makes sense. That's exactly what they did.

Paul G 40:06

So on Goldie Hall, uh Cade Mercers thinks that it's a big deal. And then she it matters because she is the point where the case stops being merely cultic and becomes morally catastrophic. A stranger can kill a child and you call it evil, right? Yeah. But a mother stays inside the system that kills her child, and you're looking at something worse. That means you're looking at something worse than just fear. Uh you're looking at belief, submission, and col and that or collapse to compl uh complete, so complete that the most basic human safeguards are f are taken away.

Andrea 40:48

I guess that's why I have such a hard time with it. Is like I would think as a mother that there would be certain things that you'd be like, uh no, that's my kid.

Paul G 40:56

Yeah. Behaviorally, there are only a few serious branches. She she believed the doctrine, she submitted to stronger authority inside the group. And women do that, especially in 1978, and the misogynistic culture that was there. Men ruled, and if you didn't listen to them, they beat the crap out of you. And it was allowed in a lot of time, in a lot of cases, depending on what they were telling you to do.

Andrea 41:19

Yeah.

Paul G 41:19

The cops would be like, well, you know, maybe she needs a little, you know, attitude adjustment here and there. That's what the that's the the the way people thought back then.

Andrea 41:29

Yeah.

Paul G 41:30

Um and so the record we have does not let any what doesn't let Cade lock in which branch dominates, but it does uh it does say that a cult strong enough to override a mother's protective instinct is no longer a church. It's a machine for moral inversion.

Andrea 41:52

Yeah.

Paul G 41:53

And a moral inversion is pretty interesting. I mean, that's that's tough.

Andrea 42:00

Yeah, I just it's something I don't quite understand. But then again, I've never been in a situation where I've been completely like brainwashed to the point where morality went out the window.

Paul G 42:12

I think for me, I don't understand how people can be brainwashed. Because I'm pretty tough to I you know I don't I don't buy into any of that shit. You can't get me to buy into that stuff.

Andrea 42:24

Yeah, I think I mean who knows what kind of background or what kind of situation Ms. Goldie was in to be attracted to this cult. I mean, we don't really know that ideal, I guess her thought process or how she was to be able to understand how she got sucked into this.

Paul G 42:42

It's a shocking case, but it's actually pretty simple.

Andrea 42:45

It's kind of very standard for every cult.

Paul G 42:47

Yeah. Well, I mean, we've reduced it so drastically for the podcast because we're I'm in school, she's in school, and then we've got 15,000 other things going on. So we're trying very hard to bring you some quality content here. Uh, you know, I tried.

Andrea 43:04

Well, it'll get it'll get interesting when I get out of school exactly how well we're both taking psychology. Yeah, I'm nurse practitioner for mental health, so it'll be kind of interesting to see.

Paul G 43:15

I just, you know, need to I need to find a use for my mess around and find out degree I've got. What nothing? Okay.

Andrea 43:23

It'll be interesting to see how I could look at these cases a little bit differently with education I'm about to get.

Paul G 43:30

Yeah, the conflict resolution steps you're taking right now, and it's like I need to take that because if I'm gonna be dealing with substance abuse folks, I need to know conflict resolution because fisticuffs is not covered.

Andrea 43:42

No, fisticuffs will get you fired.

Paul G 43:44

Yeah, but it's and resolve that conflict.

Andrea 43:48

Well, not benefit for the patient, but yeah.

Paul G 43:50

I didn't am I supposed to okay. Well, that's different then. I was just thinking my benefit.

Andrea 44:01

So basically, we got Ms. Goldie's out. The other guy's out too.

Paul G 44:06

He's out. One dude's still, he died in jail.

Andrea 44:09

He died in jail.

Paul G 44:10

And the 17-year-old. For all we know, he could be a pastor at another church.

Andrea 44:17

I hope not. Really?

Paul G 44:20

The snake handler. You know, I I think there's an opening at the snake handler church.

Andrea 44:24

I wonder. No, I don't. I I no.

Paul G 44:28

No. Every now and again they have it a surprise opening.

Andrea 44:33

No. I would like to hope that this kid got therapy in in prison.

Paul G 44:39

1978? Probably not.

Andrea 44:41

No, but one can hope.

Paul G 44:43

The state of healthcare in the 70s and 80s was it was there, but it wasn't very good. Now there's a diagnosis for everything. If you if you look left more than you look right, you're, you know, some kind of neurodivergent leftist. Oh my god. I don't know. Just making stuff up. I'm trying not to use the big terms they've been teaching me because people on the listening to this will be like, what are they talking about? Right?

Andrea 45:15

So what do we got coming up?

Paul G 45:19

You know, I was thinking, what should we do? We should probably go back and find us some I'd like to I'd like to dig into some into some conspiracies that came true. Like MK Ultra was a conspiracy for years. Nobody believed it, but then it came out when they released the documents. MK Ultra was real. And uh ironically, sp uh spurried one of uh our masked bombers, Ted Kaczynski. He was in that program.

Andrea 45:49

Yeah, we did listen to something on that.

Paul G 45:52

He was they berated people in you know craziness. Kacinski's nuts.

Andrea 45:58

He could have been anything in the world. He was so smart.

Paul G 46:00

Yeah. 180 IQ at least.

Andrea 46:02

Yeah.

Paul G 46:03

His brain could truck. And by the way, for those listening, IQ does not mean smarts. IQ just means it's IQ is your processor in your computer. Yeah. It's it's how fast your brain can process the information. So think of an 80 IQ as somebody that's living off of an old 64-bit processor from the early 90s. It takes 10 minutes for it to do a word doc. Oh gosh, stop. But it's but that's an 80 IQ. You can't even serve in the military with an ADIQ. There's nothing for you to do. You just get yourself and everyone else killed that's around you.

Andrea 46:43

All right, all right.

Paul G 46:44

Well no, I mean that's that's that's they figured that out. They they had to that's why they do an IQ test and kick you if you're too slow. It's not you're stupid, it's just your brain doesn't react fast enough. And you can't you won't be able to live on the battlefield.

Andrea 46:59

Well, I guess this research MK Ultra then.

Paul G 47:02

Oh man, that's like everybody knows about MK Ultra.

Andrea 47:06

Well then let's see what other conspiracy theories are.

Paul G 47:08

Yeah, I guess what I'd like to find one of those. You know, um the Kuresh is interesting, but you know what really interests me about Quaresh was why they thought the FBI and negotiators and the ATF and all these guys, why they thought they knew what they were doing. When they didn't know anything about what they were doing.

Andrea 47:30

I think that's a we've had to be careful and tread lightly on that kind of conspiracy there.

Paul G 47:34

Janet Reno's not in office anymore.

Andrea 47:36

Yeah, I know, but still.

Paul G 47:38

Janet Reno. She is she's the bee Arthur of politics, Janet Reno.

Andrea 47:47

Okay. So what else would you want to cover?

Paul G 47:52

Um, you know, what do you want to do?

Andrea 47:54

I don't know. I haven't really thought that far.

Paul G 47:57

Al Capone? Hot Springs? They are they buried in the in the hot springs of the his evil or his people? No. They did Valentine's Day magazine massacre. They just killed him in Chicago. They didn't bring him down here.

Andrea 48:09

I don't I don't know. I'd have to I seriously need to have to some time to think about that. I don't know.

Paul G 48:14

We've had a couple people reach out to us for interviews like we used to do.

Andrea 48:18

Yeah.

Paul G 48:18

I'm not sure if I want to do that. That one guy is trying to bring the paranormal into the talk of true crime, and I'm not sure I'm already for I'm not sure I'm willing to do that.

Andrea 48:28

Okay.

Paul G 48:28

What I mean, what do you think? Paranormal and true crime?

Andrea 48:32

I don't really want to do anything paranormal. Um I don't really want to do anything psychic kind of thing.

Paul G 48:38

Psychic. Where you can read someone's mind.

Andrea 48:41

No, I'm not no, I don't really want to do that.

Paul G 48:43

Yeah, you trust me, if you knew what people thought, you wouldn't want to read their mind. You'd be like, one, this is really boring. And two, what the you know what I mean?

Andrea 48:52

Yeah. I don't know. I'll have to do some digging. I haven't really thought about it to be honest.

Paul G 48:57

Yeah, we're we're in a tough spot right now because I've got three classes that are can uh can uh condensed into a uh eight weeks or two six three 16-week courses into eight weeks, but I am taking general psychology and medical terminology and things like that. So I'm gonna get smarter. What?

Andrea 49:19

No, that is the way you said it.

Paul G 49:21

I'm gonna get smarter.

Andrea 49:23

Yeah.

Paul G 49:23

Yeah. I'm gonna learn some stuff.

Andrea 49:27

Oh god.

Paul G 49:29

And then you're just gonna learn how to be a uh pseudo-shrink. Because you can't actually be a shrink unless you get a PhD. Which is basically what you're doing if you think about it.

Andrea 49:40

No, I I think to be like a shrink, I would have to go to med school and I don't want to do that.

Paul G 49:44

No, you don't. I was reading about that. Uh P-S-Y-C-H. That's uh that's a uh someone who just does the clinical side, I think. They don't do any research. The PhD has to do research. You gotta write a big dissertation about stuff.

Andrea 50:00

I don't want to do that either.

Paul G 50:01

And that's a physical doctor. You'd have to get your you know, do all the anatomy and go cut up a cadaver and things like that.

Andrea 50:08

Nah, I'd rather just keep doing what I'm doing.

Paul G 50:11

The guy asked me when I when I was taking these, because it's just certifications I'm doing. The guy asked me, he says, why don't you and I've said this like three or four times today. So you're gonna be bored with it, but everybody else hadn't heard it yet. He asked me, he says, Why don't you just go get your psychiatry PhD? And I'm like, Because when I'm done with it, I'll be 60? Why would I do that?

Andrea 50:31

Yeah.

Paul G 50:31

I can take nine months of classes and get certified and everything else that that would allow me to get almost a bachelor's in psychology. But I just don't have all that extra crap like English and math and everything else. And I don't want to be I don't want to be prescribing medicines. You know?

Andrea 50:53

Yeah.

Paul G 50:53

I don't care. I'm just interested in it. And if I'm gonna if you open your private practice eventually, then I'll know how I'll I'll know how to run the office.

Andrea 51:03

It depends upon what state we live in.

Paul G 51:05

Yeah, yeah. Some states allow nurse practitioners to be completely autonomous and some do some of them don't.

Andrea 51:11

Yeah.

Paul G 51:12

Anyhow. All right, all right, all right. I guess that's I guess that's it for today, huh? Are you sure? I hit the wrong button. There we go. There we go. Much better. How do you like it?

Andrea 51:43

It's not bad.

Listener Requests And Contact

Paul G 51:44

You like Jim Jones? Oh yeah, some Alrighty, so if you got anything you want us to cover, or if you want to come and play, well you can email I'm not gonna give you my phone numbers. But you can email me at polyg at polygnook.com. That's polygology.com. And if you want to come in here and come to pull my view instead of me. I'm gonna tell you to come.com that's quality. Which means you can buy stuff. If you don't like the t-shirts and you don't want the candles, then you don't want to need to make money some money. Anyway. And whatever else you want to do is.