Are the titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" simply echoes of ancient scripture, or do they offer a gateway to the profound mystery of Jesus Christ? Step into a captivating conversation with Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite Priest, as we navigate the historical and theological landscapes that these enigmatic titles inhabit. We delve into the complexity of Jesus' identity, examining the duel between divine proclamation and diabolic temptation in the wilderness. Father Sanchez brings a refreshing perspective to the discussion, as we sift through layers of biblical language and centuries-old theological discourse, challenging conventional interpretations within Trinitarian theology.
The episode further unravels these mysteries by probing the encounters between Jesus and demonic forces, contemplating the limits of angelic knowledge and the cosmic implications of their recognition of Jesus as the "Son of God." What secrets of the celestial rebellion do these confrontations reveal? In this episode we confront the hypostatic union—the union of Jesus’ humanity with His divinity. The insights of saints and the faithful remind us that comprehending Christ is an ongoing voyage, one that beckons us to explore the nature of our own relationship with the divine through prayer and reflection. Join us as we seek to unearth the enduring mystery that is Jesus Christ.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Are the titles "Son of God" and "Son of Man" simply echoes of ancient scripture, or do they offer a gateway to the profound mystery of Jesus Christ? Step into a captivating conversation with Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite Priest, as we navigate the historical and theological landscapes that these enigmatic titles inhabit. We delve into the complexity of Jesus' identity, examining the duel between divine proclamation and diabolic temptation in the wilderness. Father Sanchez brings a refreshing perspective to the discussion, as we sift through layers of biblical language and centuries-old theological discourse, challenging conventional interpretations within Trinitarian theology.
The episode further unravels these mysteries by probing the encounters between Jesus and demonic forces, contemplating the limits of angelic knowledge and the cosmic implications of their recognition of Jesus as the "Son of God." What secrets of the celestial rebellion do these confrontations reveal? In this episode we confront the hypostatic union—the union of Jesus’ humanity with His divinity. The insights of saints and the faithful remind us that comprehending Christ is an ongoing voyage, one that beckons us to explore the nature of our own relationship with the divine through prayer and reflection. Join us as we seek to unearth the enduring mystery that is Jesus Christ.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and thanks for listening. If you like my Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us. If you haven't already done so, and if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe, so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless. This is weird. When it's working the right way the first time, I don't trust it. Something's going to go wrong, man. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar. Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite Priest. Good afternoon Father. Good rainy afternoon John. Good super rainy afternoon. Yeah, it's dark outside. I don't know if it's going to start raining again, but it'll be interesting to see if any of our mics pick it up when it's raining real hard.
Speaker 2:Rain, thunder and cats.
Speaker 1:Oh man, both Boogie and Bertha, while I was waiting for you they were all up on the desk and I have cat fluff all over my face because Boogie was in a hyper love mode and was rubbing on the mic and rubbing on my face and everything. But then you know how cats sometimes their eyes kind of cross and they kind of go a little weird and they go like and they just run away for no reason, kind of thing. That's literally what happened and they both went tearing out of the room. So I was like well, thanks for visiting, I guess. Okay, so today we're talking about the mystery of Jesus. We have this wonderful intellect. As humans, we can figure out a lot, we can understand a lot, right, we can navigate reality, but we just can't, we don't know, we just don't know the way that we should know, right, because we can't.
Speaker 2:We don't have the capacity or the ability. We don't have the ability or the capacity. Right, did you say, because we're cats, no right, because we can't. We don't have the capacity or the ability. We don't have the ability or the capacity right.
Speaker 1:Did you?
Speaker 2:say because we're cats. No, I said because we don't have the capacity, we can't. You're the cat man, not me. I get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just going to go and just run away. Yeah, so that's basically it. And we I had heard a couple. I heard a homily the other day, whenever it was a couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2:It was sometime during Lent.
Speaker 1:And then I saw a podcast episode where a nun I can't remember her name off the top of my head, Lovely lady, it's with like Pines with Aquinas, so I think it's Natalia Mother Natalia, I think, is her name Anyway which had to do with when Jesus goes into the wilderness and he is tempted by the devil. The timing of it all is very interesting and I agree, I think it's a very intellectually stimulating the order in which things happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the order in which things happen, where he's baptized and God declares this is my beloved son, with whom I'm well pleased. And then, right after that, at least in the Gospel of Matthew, immediately after Jesus is led by the Spirit into the wilderness. This is Matthew, chapter 4. It says Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil, and he fasted 40 days and 40 nights, and afterward he was hungry and the tempter came to him, came and said to him if you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread. And on and on and on right. He gets tempted three times.
Speaker 1:And so this phrase Son of God, the two conversations that I had heard were hinging everything on this and being literally. If you are literally the Son of God, if you are literally God, then da-da-da-da-da, right, challenging his identity. God declares his identity and then the devil challenges the identity. But there's more to it than that, yes, than just the literal interpretation, yes. And so that's what I wanted to talk to you about, because you say it means there's a big old thunder boom. Well, literally, there's more to it than that. So what is there's two phrases, son of man, son of God Correct Are they used interchangeably In the?
Speaker 2:New Testament. Sometimes, yes, in the Old Testament sometimes son of man can mean it's a Semitic, what they call a Semitism, it's a Semitic saying, in other words, like I could say the Son of man referring to myself, I could say the Son of man referring to any, you know, anybody right. We would say just someone in general, just somebody right. So and that's the problem is that we as believers not that it's a problem that we're believers, but the problem is that as believers, we immediately interpret Son of God to mean the actual second person of the Trinity. But you have to remember that the Trinitarian revelation did not happen until after the coming of the Holy Spirit, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the working out of that theology in the early years of the church, and we talked earlier about this, about the heresies that came about that right. So we assume, because we have all this, we have worked out 2,000 years of theology, we assume Son of God means oh, yeah, it means like yeah. Son of God Like well, no, yeah, son of God Like well, no.
Speaker 2:Because in the Old Testament the Son of God could mean any holy man, anyone that's holy, a prophet, right, and even the anointed can be anybody, because they refer to Cyrus the Persian as an anointed, because he let them go back to the Holy Land. So anybody could be someone that is favored by God, or the sacred writer see as favored by God, right? So when we read in the New Testament that God says at the baptism, right, this is my beloved son. Well, we go like well, duh, anybody hear that. So like okay, yeah. But it could mean this is a favored one, this is an elect one, this is someone who's close to me or someone that I favor. It doesn't necessarily mean like second person of the Trinity.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So in that case, like in the case of his baptism, he is, though, declaring not that this is just somebody close to me. Correct, but I guess, in that that he is my son, it does still have the double meaning. He is close to me, yes, right, because the son has the authority of the father, and so it's kind of like Jesus is. It's so weird. It's kind of like he's the fulfillment of a lot of different things maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like there's something there right, some theological point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah like there's something there, right, Some theological point, yeah, yeah, so like I found some examples of different times that the phrase either son of man or son of God or God's son is used. Okay, so, from Ezekiel, chapter 47, verse 6, it says and he said to me Son of man, have you, you seen this? And then he led me back along the bank of the river, and this is when he's having the vision of the river flowing out from the city or the temple the new temple.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the new temple, yeah and so ezekiel is the son of man. Yes, so that's. I was like, okay, so that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Another Old Testament example from Book of Wisdom, chapter 2, verse 18 says for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. Yes, so you can just be righteous and be God's son. So it's like, okay, well, again, that's interesting. And then, to make it even more fun, I found a New Testament example, john 5, verses 25 through 27, where it says Jesus is saying truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he is granted to the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment because he is the Son of man. So he used Son of God and Son of man in the same. Jesus used son of God and son of man in the same sentence, talking about himself.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:So it is easy, if your only experience comes from the New Testament, that you might think that those have only to do with Jesus.
Speaker 2:Right, do with Jesus, right. So, okay, so look Jesus as Son of man, okay. So, as you're reading this, you, as a believer, understand this according to our Catholic teaching, right? But back at that time then, in the historical time of Jesus and pre-that, talking about the Old Testament, the Son of man just meant somebody that was holy. And so here in the Gospel of John, jesus is calling himself Son of God and Son of man. But the people that would hear him say that would understand that he's calling himself a holy man. Right Now we understand, now the Son of man, that Jesus is not just any dude. Son of man is like just any random guy, right? Or, as I said before, it's a Semitism, referring to yourself a different way of like, speaking of yourself in the third person, right? That's kind of sort of what that means or the way that it's understood. But we as Catholic Christians also have to understand that Jesus is the fullness of the human person and therefore the fullness of what the Son of man can be and should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because even like Roman emperors, they were the Son of God.
Speaker 2:Yes, which?
Speaker 1:is kind of like in the Gospels when they're taking jabs at the emperor.
Speaker 2:The King of Kings or the Lord of Lords? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:So is there any kind of knowing that Jesus, son of David, son of Abraham, part of the chosen people coming from Adam himself? You know what I mean. Is there something there as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is I think, because here in John's gospel here the quote that you cite from John has given authority to execute judgment because he is the Son of man. That means not only is he the second person of the Trinity, which is the Son of God in its fullness, but the Son of man is that Jesus is the new Adam and, according to the original design that God had for us that are sharing in his personal life or in his divinity, right that? There's something there about the fact that the Son of man in the fullness of the human person is the one that judges creation, as Adam names creation. Right, he is the master that judges creation as Adam names creation. Right, he is the master of creation. And so here there's sort of there's a subtle pointing to the eschaton that we've talked about before. There's something here about God's plan for the human race and to be part of that evaluation of creation, right at the end.
Speaker 1:Does this make sense? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So then, because all of that makes me wonder. Now back to not that. I think they were like again, the conversations that I heard, the podcast, the homily, all that. Not that they were incorrect, right, satan challenging Jesus, trying to get him to doubt, trying to get you know, challenging his identity, kind of thing. But it could be that they like, did Satan? It makes me wonder, did he know he was God? Like would he? I mean, maybe Satan would have challenged God, because that's kind of his, that's his shtick, right, like that's what he does. I'm gonna challenge everything. I'm gonna challenge you, god. I want to be God, but Satan's not the only evil spirit, the only angel, the only demon that uses this phrase like with Jesus. Uses this phrase like with Jesus. And so I wondered if they know. And when we were talking about this the other day, you say no, no.
Speaker 2:No, no, they don't know. No, no, no. I still say they don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't changed my mind, yeah, and so I went and looked to see just am I the only weirdo who thought about this? This is kind of like the whole speculative theology kind of part, right, like, does it ultimately matter? Like no, I don't think it matters, but is it interesting Because it maybe means something for me.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right. So I found that origin. Oh, my goodness, one of the cats is meowing in the distance. The origin, the person, the church father. Way back in the day, he says, or wrote, that God allowed Mary's marriage to Joseph to conceal from the devil the miraculous conception of Jesus. So in this way, the protective presence of Joseph helped mislead the demons into thinking Jesus had just been born of flesh and blood, like any other human being. So he's just a normal person. And then St Ephraim, the Syrians, said similarly that the devil tempted Jesus because a definite sign of Christ's divinity had not yet been given from heaven to the world. So like they didn't—he says they didn't know. I get confused when I think about it, because I think of the angels having perfect knowledge, complete knowledge, right. But where I lose it is because I forget that it's complete knowledge based on their nature.
Speaker 2:Yes, their creatures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't mean that they have complete knowledge, because that's God.
Speaker 2:Yes, they're not omniscient. They're not omniscient, they don't know everything right, they just think they do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so then I would think that they would know. But I guess the more I think about it the more I go yeah, maybe not.
Speaker 2:Well, no, because then also, what you have to take into consideration too, is because of the fall, then their, their intellect, their knowledge, their, their soup, their super supra knowledge is also super, super, supra perverted because of the fall yeah it's corrupt, they, they can't know the way and they should. Yeah, exactly, their, their understanding, their knowledge is corrupted right know the way an angel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, their understanding, their knowledge, is corrupted, right, and so they do have knowledge, right, but they don't have. They're not omniscient and their understanding of things, especially things of God, is going to be perverted because of the rebellion and because of their fall, that their nature is corrupt, their knowledge is corrupt. Their knowledge is corrupt. They don't see, and the difference between them and us is that we have the capacity for transformation, conversion and justification, whereas for them it was an eternal decision. To that corruption right, the corruption that is a consequence of the rebellion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in Matthew's gospel, chapter 8, verse 29,. So Matthew and Mark, it's the same story about the demoniac that Jesus. I guess he exercises the demons, right? I can't say that without thinking of whatever that movie um, is it poltergeist? What's the?
Speaker 2:I have exercised the demons um, oh the the, the lady with the glasses. Yeah, that's poltergeist, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Anyway. So they say and behold. The scripture verse says and behold, they cried out what have you to do with us, O son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time? Okay, so, pause there, Pause there, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So remember their knowledge, their understanding, is corrupt. They don't really understand, right, and as far as they know, jesus is just possibly the prophet that is supposed to come before the end. Right, they're not sure. Right, they presume that he's a holy man. Right, they presume that he's a holy man, right, or because of the signs that he's working, that somehow God is with him. Right, this is a righteous man, a just man or a holy man. So what have you two done? O son of God? Here doesn't necessarily mean hey, you, second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus of Nazareth. No, it means probably just you, holy dude, right?
Speaker 2:You holy one. If you are the prophet right and before our time is because remember that it was told to Moses that a future prophet would come into the people of Israel. Right, A fuller prophet or a perfect prophet would come, and that's where the whole idea of the Messiah comes right. The anointed one is to come, and so they're asking like, uh, does this mean that our time is is short?
Speaker 1:but they don't understand that jesus is actually the second person of the trinity, incarnate in jesus christ yeah, and they and I would assume that they know that the second person of the trinity, as a human, is going to happen. Otherwise they wouldn't have rebelled. So they know it's happening.
Speaker 2:No, no, no not necessarily they, according to the. Again, this is all speculation, right yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah.
Speaker 2:According to the original speculation about the fall was that God revealed to them not necessarily the incarnation of Jesus into the human race, but the human person as both a spiritual and a physical being that would share God's divinity.
Speaker 1:And that was the cause of the rebellion?
Speaker 2:Oh, not necessarily how it would happen, but yeah, and that was the cause of the rebellion. Oh, not necessarily how it would happen, but yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:And they're not Just like they're not omniscient. They don't know everything Correct. They're also not omnipresent, so they're not everywhere at once.
Speaker 2:So they only see what they see.
Speaker 1:Correct they only experience, I guess, in our so. So it's like they almost makes me wonder if they they've been watching him. You know like, oh, here's this holy guy, let's watch him, kind of thing. Yeah, probably yeah or they hear people talking about him or something you know.
Speaker 1:They're like oh, here's that guy, here's that guy right, right you know, um, in mark, in Mark's account of the same thing is a little bit stronger language. It says and when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him. This is really interesting. And crying out, this is the, the demoniac, yeah, the possessed guy, right, which I guess that means this is the demon saying this, or and doing this. And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him. And, crying out in a loud voice, he said what have you to do with me, jesus, son of the Most High God? I adjure you by God, do not torment me. But it says he worshipped him.
Speaker 2:That's, mark, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's interesting. Maybe that doesn't really matter, because a fallen angel doesn't want to worship God, he wants to worship himself, he wants to worship anything.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe, maybe. Speculation, yeah, and so maybe it's something that Mark is trying to. Mark is trying in. Mark, mark is trying to point out to us that these fallen spirits knew that there was something special about Jesus, above and beyond or before even the people of Israel, right, so there's a theology here, right. But what I find interesting about this statement that you quote here is that if they knew that Jesus was God, why would they say what have you to do with me, jesus, son of the Most High God, I adjure you by God. It'd be like I adjure you by yourself. Do not torment me, like, okay? So that doesn't make sense. So is it that you know? As a holy person, I'm asking you, I beg you, by the God that you serve, by the God that you are in relationship with, by the God that you believe in, don't make me suffer, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, super quick side tangent, because this just popped in my head and now I wonder Is there any such thing as a super quick side tangent John Never, no, anyway, go on.
Speaker 1:By that I mean this isn't going to last for three hours.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's short then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I have zero experience in this and I don't presume you have any experience in this either, personally, personally, in an exorcism. In an exorcism, it's not the priest or the bishop who exercises the demon. I can't it, just that phrase it just cracks me up. Anyway, it's Jesus.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:It is the power of Christ. So the question do they still not know? Oh, now they know.
Speaker 2:Okay, After the crucifixion yeah, now they know.
Speaker 1:After the resurrection. Now they know. It's so interesting to me too, how—because all of that fascinates me, because God is, he's their God. Like they have no ability to not obey God.
Speaker 1:But they're in rebellion and they're stuck in rebellion, yeah, and so it's just like I mean because, like creation, all of existence obeys God, right? So it's just, it's so interesting. What God permits, what he allows and when he commands, existence obeys. It's so interesting, Okay. So all that to say is even if they didn't know, for somehow, I don't know, somehow they would not be able to help, but obey.
Speaker 2:And that's why, when there is the expulsion of the evil one from possessing someone, it is the power of Christ and they have to obey. Yeah, they rebel, and they rebel, and they rebel and they say no, no, no, no, no, no, and finally they go like okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, all right, quick side. Okay, okay, I'll tangent over. Okay, um, so all of this, all of this like questioning who is the son of god, who is the son of man, questioning jesus do I know jesus? Going back to what we were saying at the very beginning, even we, with all the knowledge we have, all the experience we have, we still can't comprehend, we still can't grasp who Jesus is.
Speaker 2:No, I mean we, and that's what I tell people as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, like you Catholics, like, yeah, we believe, and it is the statement of faith, that we have the fullness of truth. It doesn't mean that we know it all, it's just there is the fullness of truth, exists in the church and the fullness of truth is Jesus Christ. But we're still discovering who Jesus is. 2,000 years later. We're still, you know, drawing out the consequence of that faith statement, who he is. And so, yes, we have a hard time understanding and even verbalizing, because we have a limited vocabulary of expressing this, trying to express this truth. Right, we have a limited expression of trying to name that mysterious marriage that exists between the human person of Jesus, of Nazareth and the second person of the Trinity, and what we call the hypostatic union, where it is one person with two natures, the sacred nature and the human nature. And so it's hard.
Speaker 2:And one of my favorite theologians, skillebeks, who's a Dutch theologian I love his stuff. Anyway, he got his hand slapped by the Holy See because he wrote two volumes, these two huge volumes, one called Jesus and one called Christ, and the Holy See got all upset with him because they said you know who separated the natures of Jesus and Christ? One Jesus and one Christ. And he was like I'm a teacher. I mean, we need to separate these two to be able to appreciate who Jesus is. And I think that's part of the thing is that we either have a very human understanding of who Jesus is as a teacher, sort of like Mahatma Gandhi or Buddha, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's a wise man.
Speaker 2:A wise man or a super, super understanding of Jesus as the Son of God. In that he cannot relate to me because he's God right, and it's really hard to maintain that balance between true God and true man and we can underestimate and we can be skewed in our understanding of who Jesus is and part of it is, you know. That's the whole reason for prayer, and spending time in reflection and contemplation is coming to a deeper understanding of the mystery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you had said something once upon a time, I think in one of our episodes too, or probably in multiple episodes, and it just took that long for it to sink into my head that we were called to exist in the tension between two points, and not just with Him being God and man right, but that's a good example of that tension. And in our relationships with one another and to the church and the world around us and all that, we're called to exist in that tension between where we can't articulate it necessarily, and same thing when we're relating to someone else. It's not that I'm right or you're right or I'm wrong and you're wrong. It's in that tension in between where we move forward, right, right, I love the story of the woman with the hemorrhaging who touches the tassel kind of his cloak, kind of thing, and I think it's that story in the gospel. I know, when Jesus is like the crowd's all pushing it in and he's like who touched me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and all the apostles, dude, everybody's touching you. He's like no, no, no, somebody touched me. But he knew they touched me and they believed kind of thing right. And it's in that story the first time I realized when he says your faith has made you well be healed. And I was like doesn't he say that every time? And I think so. I mean maybe, if not every time?
Speaker 2:almost every time he says your faith has saved you.
Speaker 1:Your faith has whatever right. And I just wonder that faith, like, did she understand who he was or did she still not understand? And she just she knew the guy could help her and she was just desperate for help. You know All the I mean, I have had some pretty remarkable experiences in my life where, like, I have zero doubt in the world that god exists and it's like, do I have that same degree of faith, though? Do I still doubt? Do I really know who he? Like, if I really knew, would I do the things I do, or act the way I act and or or whatever you know or act?
Speaker 2:the way I act or whatever you know, and so there's—.
Speaker 2:I think part of it too is this Even saints, even the holiest of saints, they're still human and they still live in a broken world and they still have— they still struggle to respond to God in the way they desire to respond and the way God wants them to respond in the fullness of their capacity. So there's always going to be growth, right, there's always going to be room for growth to grow in holiness, to grow in that relationship. But I think part of the question that you're asking is the faith. Okay, this woman let's first talk about this woman. Her faith in Jesus was okay, that Jesus was a holy man, that Jesus was a prophet, that Jesus was the Messiah.
Speaker 2:Probably, most probably Did she understand the fullness of what that is, or the fullness of who Jesus is? Probably not, probably not preacher, who goes about doing good, who doesn't avoid sick persons, because sick persons were obviously punished by God that was the theology of the time right and associates with the poor and everything and so like. There is something there that really is moving her and maybe even is a sign of God's mercy and love right for her, and that is the faith that she has. She has a faith in God's fidelity and Jesus has the sign of this fidelity of who the Father is, or, yeah, father, because Son of God also can refer to Israel.
Speaker 2:So, again, and there's something here, and this is what Mark is trying to get across. Mark is trying to get across what, again? This is again remember, this is post-resurrection, this is early communities and as he's recalling Jesus' ministry and stuff, he decides to use this incident to retell or to recall. And there's this healing of this woman who basically had spent all of her money trying to heal herself, going to physicians, going to doctors, going to this and that, and had used up all her money and she was in a place of desperation, she had no one else to turn to but this itinerant preacher, holy man. So, yeah, there's a lot there that can be unpacked so why do we?
Speaker 1:why is it then that we just keep doubting who the son of man is right like, or who god is, who jesus? Why do we just keep? I guess I take solace because Paul talks about it too, right.
Speaker 2:He says why do I do I keep training, yeah, why do I do the things I don't want to do and don't do the things I do want to do? Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't want.
Speaker 2:I train, so I wouldn't be disqualified at the end kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I think part of it again goes back to the whole idea of relationships, in that I think for us, and a lot of times for believers, jesus is an abstract thought, an abstract concept, and we really haven't entered into a real relationship with him, right. And so at least we know who he is, right, at least we have the desire to want to enter into that relationship with him and there is that hope and that possibility for grace. And I think part of it too is, I think we don't really think about the consequence of the fact that Jesus has come into the world, has assumed our humanity for me, to save me, and there's a lack of appreciation and thankfulness for Thanksgiving, for the fact that that is, that is how deep his love is. In fact, one of the Eucharistic prayers for reconciliation, I think it's in the first Eucharistic prayer for reconciliation where the, the prayer says and now you have united yourself to humanity by a tie that cannot be unbroken in the incarnation of Jesus' meaning right. So I think we don't ponder or consider this truth enough and commit ourselves to that relationship and that transforming relationship, that transforming friendship with Jesus Christ. So I think that's it right.
Speaker 2:I think and we talked about this earlier like if everybody really knew who Jesus was and everybody really knew what the blessed sacrament was and the real presence was, everybody would be in church. I mean everybody. We'd all be in there giving thanks, worshiping and crying and all those things that happen. But again, it's up to us, it's up to what we decide to invest in. What am I investing my time in? What relationships am I investing my time in? What relationships am I investing my time in? Am I investing my relationship in the Lord and trying to grow in that unconditional love that is not measured? Right To love without measure without measure.
Speaker 1:It was funny when you were saying if we understood he was really there in the Blessed Sacrament and stuff like that. I was thinking about adoration, because I was thinking if you really believed that that was Jesus, why would you be anywhere else, like if you really really believed. But then something popped in my head and the transfiguration Peter's like we're going to make some tents.
Speaker 2:Let's stay here.
Speaker 1:We're going to stay here forever, and Jesus is like no dude.
Speaker 2:You're going to leave. Go and immediately after that, immediately, immediately, it's funny immediately after that they run into the possessed boy who his followers cannot cast out the devil oh really yeah and yeah, they're like how come we can't cast this one out?
Speaker 1:he's like this it takes a lot of faith or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah prayer and fasting or something I forget now what it is right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess is that when he does the whole. If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, or you'd tell the mountain to move.
Speaker 2:I think that's afterwards. Yeah, but the first thing they encounter is coming down from the moment of glory down into coming down to real world stuff, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:Well, and I guess that's interesting too, because, yeah, if God wanted all of us in front of him, I think it'd be that end time kind of thing, yeah, and that's what the end time is. End time kind of thing, yeah, and that's what the end time is. And so just that story just reminds us that I guess, and you know what? I guess, there again there's that tension. I should desire to be nowhere else and I should also desire to do nothing else but not be there so I could be with other people to bring them to him, and so just that tension in between.
Speaker 2:Going back to tension, yeah. Ding ding, ding, ding ding ding.
Speaker 1:It's good stuff. Yeah, the interesting, like the thoughts that come from just hearing other people talk about Jesus.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Just the things that pop in your head.
Speaker 2:And getting back to this, the mystery of Jesus and the fallen angels, right, or the fallen spirits, yeah, I think. Again, I think that's very much part. Again back to speculation. I think there are some separated brethren who also kind of follow that speculation, but I have heard a priest say like oh yeah, they knew, and I'm like dude man, go study, Go read.
Speaker 2:And again, it just doesn't make sense because I think I, I think when you and I were talking about this earlier, I had quoted paul, where paul says if is it the lords of this world or the, the kings of this world, some see something about that. The powers of this world had known who he was, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they wouldn't let it happen because they'd know that that would be the end for them. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That would be the end for them. I think it's in Corinthians, I'm not sure. I'm not a Protestant.
Speaker 1:I don't have my Bible memorized you heathen, I am Just a heath, just that you've been Catholic. That's me cool, alright. Well, thank you for chatting with me, that's it. I can't wait to see you next time, because I don't know what we're going to talk about next. It's just fun, okay, alright, love you everybody. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, love you too. See you all later. See you, bye, bye. See y'all later. See you, bye, bye.