In this episode, Father Stephen Sanchez helps us explore the intricate symbolism of wine in the sacred context of Jewish marriage. From the Talmud we uncover the cultural and theological significance of Jewish nuptial customs and their parallels in Catholic theology. This episode isn't just an exchange of ideas; it's a celebration of the sacred union that mirrors the church as the bride of Christ, inviting you to savor the theological nuances and ancient customs that have shaped the Church's theology.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
In this episode, Father Stephen Sanchez helps us explore the intricate symbolism of wine in the sacred context of Jewish marriage. From the Talmud we uncover the cultural and theological significance of Jewish nuptial customs and their parallels in Catholic theology. This episode isn't just an exchange of ideas; it's a celebration of the sacred union that mirrors the church as the bride of Christ, inviting you to savor the theological nuances and ancient customs that have shaped the Church's theology.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Speaker 2:Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend, the Friar Father Stephen Sanchez, a discalced Carmelite priest. Good morning, father, good morning. How are you? I am doing well, since I survived the cat attack, cat explosion, the cat tornado.
Speaker 1:That's the next science fiction movie, cat-nado.
Speaker 2:Cat-nado.
Speaker 1:That'd be interesting.
Speaker 2:Oh, we're going to be rich, we're going to be millionaires. You know how many people are going to see that. Oh goodness, I realized a couple things lately listening to some of our episodes. One you're not being silly this morning because you've been making me laugh a bunch when we introduce or start the episode. Two did you know that, at least at the time of recording this, whenever this is, we've released 77 episodes? Really, yeah, I didn't realize it. I, I was, I don't know, I was digging through like the metrics that the the thing captures, the, the podcast platform thing captures, and it was 77. Wow, like that's a lot, that's a lot of content man, I have to go back a lot.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of history to go over too. I know I was thinking I should go back and listen to some of them because, if I know myself, I won't remember half of the things that we talked about and be like oh this is so interesting, we should talk, or I'll hear something, we should talk about that, and then we forget about talking about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I thought that was really cool and that's, I think, a great reason for people to share the podcast with others, because there's so much content, there's so much good stuff for them to listen to and dig into and learn from and educate themselves and contemplate.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, in fact, there was something that came up the other day. I was thinking about something. I was like, wow, we haven't talked about that. It had to do with one of the martyrs. Maybe it was the North American martyrs. I don't think we did the North American martyrs.
Speaker 2:No, we didn't. Did we do the martyrs of Mexico?
Speaker 1:We did, we did do Mexico yeah the Cristiana but the martyrs of North America, Cristiana but the martyrs of North America was going like we haven't done that. I don't know why. We had some celebration or something. I was like, hmm, Anyway.
Speaker 2:The Mexican martyrs. I think we tied it in with World War II because I think it was kind of close in time. But that one I didn't know that it was against the law to be catholic in mexico until like the 90s 1990s until um pope paul, the pope paul, pope john paul visited mexico and then mexico.
Speaker 1:Very awkward yeah, awkward yeah.
Speaker 2:That was it was super interesting listening to all those that was and that was something. That kind of ties in late with what we have spoken about relatively recently, which was the and I forget how we said it, but basically it was denominationalism kind of that concept. Yeah, and so how quickly everything shattered and splintered and fractured after the Martin Luther's revolution or reformation or revolt, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, but, yeah, lots of martyrs, especially the ones in France. Holy cow, that was nuts, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's unfortunate that a lot of people just don't know that history. They're not familiar with that history. They're so stuck on some other stuff right there, distracted by other stuff. I should say yeah, stuck on some other stuff right there.
Speaker 2:Distracted by other stuff, I should say, yeah Well, speaking of history, this is kind of this topic is a little bit of history that you and I are learning about, because basically, what happened here is my wife had shared something with me that she had, I don't know, found in some corner of the internet kind of thing, probably on Instagram or something. Right, she goes, have you ever heard about this? And so I looked at I've never heard about that. And so I asked you and you're like I don't know. And so we decided to investigate, and so this, in a nutshell, what it is, is she had heard, or the thing that she had shown me was that at a Jewish engagement, the husband hands his betrothed a cup of wine and she drinks. If she drinks from it, then she's accepting his marriage proposal, and the suggestion is then that there's something worth considering, with Jesus's first miracle being at a wedding and the last quote, unquote last miracle kind of thing, his last supper, because wine is central to both the Passover and to the wedding, and then, kind of secondarily to that, that the church is the bride of Christ. Right, and so the historical part.
Speaker 2:You and I didn't really know how much was really there worth considering, and so we had to go digging back through Jewish tradition and kind of historical practices and how you know what does it look like in modern times and things like that. So it was really interesting and we thought it was something worth sharing, something worth talking about. Before we get going into this, I do want to ask, because what we're going to be looking at is kind of the signs and the symbols and the mystagogy of a lot of our faith, of a lot of our faith is there something there that people should be careful with? Like don't get too caught up in looking for mystagogical experiences or for the signs and symbols in the Bible, like it's interesting but it's not worth, you know, getting too wrapped up in. Or is it something that is good and people should embrace the things that they come across if it's helpful to them?
Speaker 1:Like what do you think? I think there is always a possibility for a deeper appreciation, understanding the signs and the symbols, right? The problem is that sometimes people can get overly focused or obsessed, right? And then that's not healthy in terms of overvaluing the sign or the symbol at the cost of the other signs and symbols that they're all part of, right? So there are signs and symbols that we have that are of it's like, levels of importance. So, like, okay, so is the sign and the symbol of.
Speaker 1:Excuse me, when I go into the church and I sign myself with holy water, make the sign of the cross with holy water. Well, that's supposed to remind me of my baptismal promise, right, my new life in baptism. How often do people think about their baptism when they make the sign of the cross when they enter? I don't know, but you have that. That's that sign and symbol. Then you have the sign and symbol of peace. Then you have the sign and symbol of the white candles, or candles that should be at least 51% Beeswax, beeswax.
Speaker 1:All those are signs and symbols, right? So the most important sign and symbol would be obviously the altar, which is the sign and the symbol, and after the altar, it would be the most important sign and symbol would be actually, then, the liturgy itself, right, the liturgy of the word and the liturgy of the Eucharist. Obviously, we have the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ in the two species that are consecrated. But I think sometimes people can get a little wrapped up, like people can start to get overly obsessed with angels, overly obsessed with devils, overly obsessed with you know, and they become focused on one aspect, which can be detrimental to the balance that is required to understand all things right, all the—appreciate the value of all the signs and symbols that are part of our faith. So, when it comes to these sorts of things, it's good to have again catechesis education so that we can appreciate again catechesis education, so that we can appreciate.
Speaker 2:But then again there can be a tendency for some personalities to be overly anxious or worried about things, right? Is that maybe the same kind of consideration we should take with Sorry, bertha's climbing in my lap now? We've talked about the danger of what do we call them? The rad trads, right, everybody who's like well the Latin. Mass is the only Mass. The trads, right, everybody who's like well the Latin.
Speaker 1:Mass is the only Mass, the only Mass.
Speaker 2:right, they're too focused on, I guess, the religiosity, not religiosity, the ritualistic part of everything. The ritual part, oh that wasn't done right, so it's invalid. And sometimes that's really important, right so it's invalid or whatever, and there's sometimes that's really important right. Like an invalid baptism is much different than something going a little awry on accident during Mass. So is it the same kind of?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, there are personalities that tend to obsess right, or to be overly focused or overly rigid, and so, again, what happens is in, and that's how a lot of problems started in the beginning of the church. Right, all the heresies, most heresies. It's an overstatement of a truth, right? So, it's an imbalanced excuse me, not enough coffee an imbalanced presentation of a truth. So, for example, jesus Christ say true God and true man. Okay, so if you overemphasize the humanity, well then that becomes a heresy.
Speaker 1:If you overemphasize the divinity, well then that becomes a heresy. So I mean, again, it's part of the human element of the church again is trying to keep it all balanced. That's why, again, that's why catechesis is so important, that's why educating ourselves is so important, and that's one of the reasons why you talked me into this podcast, so that we'd be able to talk about these things and dive into the truth versus what people perceive to be the truth, or trying to make a distinction between preference and teaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and kind of like you were saying in one of our more recent episodes too, when you were asking your community to consider something to do with, well, not salvation, but life after death and all that, just because something, there's a lot that is worth considering. There's a lot that is worth considering, and I think most things even are worth considering, but just because you consider something doesn't mean that it should become the primary focus of whatever Correct yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're going to look at three kind of main symbols here from Old Testament, three kind of main symbols here from Old Testament, and you can guide us through the Jewish marriage kind of part of this first, and then afterwards we'll look at how that relates to the New Testament and just depending on how this goes, this could be two episodes. So the first symbol is blood right. Well, I don't know if blood symbol is the right word. The first thing that is going to be symbolic is blood right. It's the source of life, it symbolizes life. And why is that?
Speaker 1:In the Old Testament, blood is considered the life source, and because it is considered the life source, it is therefore connected to the divine, and if it's connected to the divine, then that makes that thing a holy thing.
Speaker 1:And in the Old Testament it's very strange, the Old Testament, it's very strange you have different categories and ways of categorizing things that are clean and unclean, things that are pure and unpure, and so the impurity that can happen is if you touch something that is sacred and you're not supposed to, then that renders you unclean, for example, blood. So touching blood, it's not that blood is icky, it's that blood is the source of life and therefore something that only God has a right to, and by you touching it you have profaned it, and yourself by touching something that is sacred. So here, then, this is part of that, by touching something that is sacred. So here then, this is part of that the richness of life. That is something that only God has a right to or power over. So this is part of that blood symbolism that you started bringing into this whole consideration of wine and blood and the marriage ritual, the Jewish marriage ritual.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it's weird because wine sorry, and I misspoke earlier there's two symbols blood and then wine is the other symbolic thing, but blood it both symbolizes life, but it also cleanses. So those two things together and it's weird. But if you touch it inappropriately, you're not cleansed, you're made unclean.
Speaker 1:Right, it is very strange, right, it has to be a ritual application. And so this is then the blood of the heifers, or the lambs, like they pour blood on the altar to purify the altar and then they sprinkle the people with blood to purify the people, right? So again there's a holiness and a life that is associated with blood. Again, going back to this whole idea of the life source, because it is something that is divine and it is in this ritual, in this understanding, in its context, then the sprinkling of the people with blood is something that cleanses them because it is in its proper ritual context, right In connection with God, and that's why, in another case it cleanses, as in the other case, if it's not in a ritual context, you touch it or somehow you're exposed to it or something. Then all of a sudden you're rendered ritually impure. It's strange, but anyway, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the goal here is to help us to properly order the things in our lives around us. To properly order them Right. So same thing Like you couldn't eat blood around us. To properly order them Right. So same thing like you couldn't eat blood. And so and it's not because it's bad for you or something like that it's because you have to understand that that life and that cleansing comes from God, not from something that you are trying to do yourself, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, really interesting. The second wine is interesting too, because wine many times symbolizes blood, maybe because of the color, whatever, and both wine and blood are poured onto the altar as forms of offerings and sacrifice.
Speaker 1:In the Old Testament.
Speaker 2:yes, yes, yeah, super, super strange. Okay, so now we kind of set that stage. What does any of this have to do with marriage?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the wine is both a sign and a symbol of life, of sanctity, but also is a sign of joy. In the Old Testament, Wine is also joy, so it's multifaceted symbols or signs right, symbols or signs right.
Speaker 2:So it is pregnant with life, joy, divinity, blessing all that is part of what wine, then can signify right, so okay, so when we now, as we're, exploring marriage, where did you get? So you got most of this. Well, I think you got it. You have a book, of course, because you got a book for everything. Yes.
Speaker 1:But most of this, the explanation of the rituals and whatnot, they're not biblical, they're from the Talmud right. Yes, yes, and so the book that we used in our Jewish history, in theology, when I was in Theologet, which is a postgraduate school, it was written by Leo Tre and it's entitled A History of the Jewish Experience Eternal Faith, Eternal People and it's interesting and again this goes back to a whole Catholic understanding of Scripture as well that for us, as well as the Jews, you have your Scripture, but then you have your commentary. Then you have your commentary on the Scripture. You have rabbinic teaching on the scripture. All those are parts of them that are considered an understanding, right, how you understand, for example, going back to the Ten Commandments and then the fact that eventually you had like 600 and something prescriptions of the law based on the Ten Commandments. Well, that was considered rabbinical teaching, that this is a correct interpretation of that scripture. And that's why we, as Catholics, also have the oral tradition, right, you have the apostolic tradition, which is both scripture and the oral tradition. So, anyway, so this is where most of the teaching from marriage comes in, of course, because Judaism also is something that has developed over the centuries. The idea of marriage has also developed. The ritual, the rite of marriage has also changed across the centuries. So when it comes to marriage and this quote is from this book by Leotra Jews used to marry young. The Talmud suggests the age of 18. Frequently, the young man was unable to support a wife at that age, and so, rather than postpone marriage, the girl's father might support the new family.
Speaker 1:Okay, so first the Talmud, the Talmud and Talmud is a Hebrew word that means teaching. So the Talmud is the central text of rabbinic Judaism. And the Talmud, then, is the primary source of Jewish religious law, halakha, and so it is the source of Jewish law and Jewish theology, right. So the Talmud has the teaching, this oral teaching, this rabbinic teaching, that the Talmud has two components, two components One is called the Mishnah, which is a written anthology or compendium of the oral Torah. So people write down these rabbis that are teaching. So people write down these teachings. So you have a written compendium of the oral tradition that is passed on, old tradition that is passed on. And then you have the Gemara, which is a commentary on that written tradition of the oral tradition. So it gets a little complicated there, but that's what the Talmud when they're talking about the Talmud, then that means then rabbinic tradition, or teaching or oral tradition. Was then that the idea is that they marry young at the age of 18, right, so that was what was considered.
Speaker 1:And again this is a cultural thing too. The life expectancy, I'm sure, back then was a lot shorter, so you had to marry a lot younger, because part of the whole idea of the marriage, too, was to be fruitful and multiply in order to, or in hopes of then bringing forth the Messiah right, what they understood the Messiah to be. So again.
Speaker 2:so yeah, is this teaching? I guess a good parallel to say how we have non-inspired Christian writings and catechisms and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Because the true teaching is the Scripture, the sacred Scripture. But you have all this wonderful, these thoughts that are captured to help us understand and expand upon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then you have your philosophers and theologians who expand on the teaching, or expand on the scripture, or how to interpret that right. How to interpret that right. So, getting back to the Talmud and Jewish marriage, to prepare us for this idea of the engagement cup and this wine right, how they propose to each other, or how the proposal of marriage is made. So in the Mishnah, which is part of the Talmud, which is then the written compendium of the oral Torah right, the Mishnah states that a wife may be acquired in three ways. The Mishnah says she's acquired by silver, through contract or through marital cohabitation. So the three ways are silver, contract, cohabitation, okay, and then a commentary on the Mishnah, or part of the Mishnah. Then one of the rabbinic sayings is as husband and wife are worthy, god's glory dwells in their midst, so somehow they're associating. Then this is where we get the sanctity of marriage, somehow they're associating them.
Speaker 1:This is where we get the sanctity of marriage. This is where, according to the life lived together in that marriage by the husband and the wife, then God's glory dwells in their midst. So that's part of their theology or the rabbinic ideal of marriage, right? And so then what's happening here is that there's two aspects of this husband and wife makes the union somehow connected to the glory of God or the divinity, right? So somehow it is divinized or sacralized, right? That's part of that understanding of marriage, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, in ancient Israel, betrothal and marriage were kept about a year apart. You would stay engaged for a year, right. We would say engaged or betrothed for a year, and I shouldn't say engaged, because engaged is a different meaning. Betrothed is like I am committing, I am promising, I am committed to we are going to get married. Engagement nowadays tends to be like eh, we'll think about it and we'll see where we go from there. Yeah, so, but the betrothal was a commitment to marriage, so they could not live with each other, because if they did, then that would be marriage, right. So the betrothal right. So they could not live with each other. Neither could they get a separation from each other without getting a legal divorce, binding here too, and legally binding meaning probably within the, the judaism right, legal, religious right, understanding. So the day of the bride's wedding she binds herself again to her betrothed, but now it is full marriage bonds, right. So both legal and divine. So the Jewish wedding rite today comprises both the ancient act of betrothal and the vows of marriage.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of developed since then right yeah, kind of condensed down to a more modern timeframe, yeah, synthesizing it, right, yeah, so then the first part.
Speaker 1:So betrothal is actually the first part of the marriage ceremony. So betrothal is not a part from marriage. It is the first part of the marriage ceremony. So it is a legal act. So there's two witnesses that are required and they cannot be related to either of the two parties that are getting married. So the rabbi makes sure that they are entering into this marriage freely. That's the consent that we have in Catholic marriage, right, the freedom of consent. Then the rabbi raises a cup of wine. The rabbi blesses God, by whose word betrothal and marriage have come into being, and then the couple share the cup.
Speaker 1:Right, so that's part of the marriage ceremony. Now, right, the marriage ceremony. Now right, the second part of the marriage ceremony is any one of three legal acts that bind them together. Right, and going back to the Talmud and the Mishnah, the marriage ceremony today now includes all three. So the legal acts of the marriage ceremony are you know, we said that cohabitation is what the Talmud says. So the legal act is two people may become man and wife by living together and building a home. The second one is a man may acquire wife by silver, by handing something to her of value with the expressed declaration that he wishes to marry her by this gift. As she accepts this gift, she is not just betrothed, she becomes his wife. That's part of the legal act of marriage.
Speaker 2:And this is like the ring.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's where we would get the ring, or before it would be. Like you know, like I'm going to give you, I'll give you six cows and three camels for her right.
Speaker 2:And it's like okay, yeah that's better. Betty probably would have taken the animals.
Speaker 1:And then there is an actual contract, contract that legalizes the marriage. So you have the building, the home together, the silver and the contract. So today the ceremonies, the Jewish ceremonies, bring all three legal acts together. So the ceremonial home that you see, the little canopy that they build for when you see a Jewish in movies, when you see a Jewish wedding, right, they're under this little canopy and that's kind of sort of like a ceremonial home. They call it the chuppah, so the canopy is under. They take their vows under the canopy, which is representative of their home, with the rabbi there, right. This is where the ritual is held. So under the chuppah, the groom places the silver or the ring on her fingers with the words Be thou consecrated unto me as my wife by this ring, according to the law of Moses in Israel.
Speaker 1:Then the rabbi reads the contract previously witnessed and agreed upon. So there's an actual contract that they read and sign or approve of before they sign, and they sign it there at the ritual. Now this is the part where you talk about not just the engagement cup, but how the cup has become a part of the wedding ceremony itself. Whereas before it was a sign of betrothal, now it is part of the marriage ceremony itself. So then the rabbis give what is called the divine blessing with the cup of wine. So then the rabbi raises the cup of wine and then he recites the blessing which is Blessed be thou, o Lord, who created the fruit of the vine. Blessed be thou, o Lord, who creates all to thy glory. Blessed be thou, o Lord, who has created man in thine image and likeness and given him the capacity for eternal self-perpetuation. Blessed be thou, o Lord, creator of man. May Zion, childless, now rejoice when her children are gathered in her midst in joy. Blessed be thou, o Lord, who gives joy to Zion through her children.
Speaker 1:Make these beloved mates to rejoice in great joy, as once thou didst give joy to thy creatures in the garden of Eden. Be thou, o Lord, who makes groom and bride to rejoice. Blessed be thou, o Lord, who has created joy and gladness, groom and bride, jubilation and exaltation, delight and satisfaction, love and brotherhood, peace and friendship. Blessed be thou, o Lord, who makes rejoice the groom with his bride, and then that's the blessing. And then the rabbi gives the cup to the groom. The groom sips and then shares the cup with the bride, and then the rabbi pronounces them, husband and wife, and then the rabbi pronounces them husband and wife.
Speaker 2:Okay, now I need you to do all that again in Hebrew.
Speaker 1:Hebrew yeah. I don't remember any of my Hebrew, sorry.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is all really really interesting because if you I imagine, especially way back in the day, if you're a good jew right and you you're well catechized and you understand all the symbolism and everything that's going on and you know the story of your people and all that kind of stuff, that this is probably not just a personally powerful moment, but it's probably it feels like you are a part of your people's history and you're continuing something that is divinely motivated.
Speaker 1:Right right, motivated right right. This is. This is again very um. There's a greater awareness of again this, this, uh, historical connection to the past. Right, there is a greater awareness of that history and where this is coming from so again for the. I guess I guess for judaism. This is coming from. So again for the, I guess I guess for Judaism, this is very much part of their whole identity. Is recalling this particular history right.
Speaker 1:And just for us. We have our own history that we recall. Every Sunday and every day we celebrate the Eucharist. So just a different focus right, a different part of history for each group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, so let's go ahead. Let's go ahead and break this up. Let's do so when we come back next time. We'll just we'll quick recap and then we're going to see how all of this starts tying into Jesus's ministry and how he fulfills his role in our salvation. Super cool, thank you for this father. You're welcome Everyone who joined us. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Podcast with others.
Speaker 2:God bless, we'll see you next time, bye, bye.