Christian Nationalism Panel: Navigating the Crossroads of Christian Nationalism and Society: A Discourse on Faith and National Identity

Grapple with the concept of Christian Nationalism as we traverse its theological underpinnings and societal implications. Prepare for an enlightening journey through the challenges and opportunities that arise when faith intertwines with national identity. Joined by the insightful perspectives of Voddie Baucham, Tom Ascol, and William Wolfe, we dissect the delicate balance where Christian culture can enhance our spiritual journey without eclipsing the primacy of Christ's lordship. This episode promises to sharpen your understanding of how Christian values can influence society while guarding against the distortions of nationalistic fervor.

As Elder Michael Tolliver, I'm thrilled to lead you through an intricate discussion on the Baptist doctrine of church-state separation, the Biblical interpretation of civic obedience, and the church's role in discipling society. We scrutinize the tension between patriotism and resistance to authority, especially in a time of political and health crises. Our candid dialogue outlines the distinct spheres of family, church, and government authority, shedding light on their interconnected roles and the church's sovereign duty to guide without overreach.

Concluding our profound exploration, we encourage a revival of Christian ethos starting within our homes and local communities. Our episode underlines the importance of fostering a society that resonates with Christian values, confronting national sins like abortion and historical injustices, and the pressing need for spiritual renewal over political activism. Together, we examine whether a government structure can ever be divinely endorsed and how Christians can actively participate in public theology, resisting secular nationalism. Tune in for a deep dive into the ways we, as believers, can influence the public square while steadfastly upholding our faith.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:33

Welcome to Biblical Talks. My name is Elder Michael Tolliver. What is Christian Nationalism? For those unfamiliar with the term, christian Nationalism is the belief and hope that, by God's grace, through political means, christians can restore their country to the kind of nation it once was, when its laws and customs reflect a common belief in the gospel and the teaching of Scripture. Now, reformed theology emphasizes the authority of Scriptures. Christians who hold a Reformed perspective recognize Christ as King and acknowledge his authority over all things, including the nations. The Great Commission in Matthew 28 would be central and would emphasize the call for discipleship in all nations.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Listen, while Reformed theology does not teach that cultural Christianity can save sinners, it recognizes that a Christian culture can be an opening to proclaim the gospel. Christian nationalism can easily drift into idolatry if the nation identity becomes more important than the faithfulness to Christ. Let me say this one more time Jesus Christ is king and his authority is over all things. The church primary mission is to proclaim the gospel of Christ. Let me say that again the church primary mission is to proclaim the gospel, and cultural Christianity should not and cannot replace genuine faith in Christ. Listen, reformed theology encourages cultural engagement but places Christ's lordship above any national identity. Don't get me wrong. I thank God for the United States and Christian nationalism can be a positive force for moral influence when we understand theological boundaries to avoid the pitfalls of idolatry and misplaced concerns, false idolatry and misplaced concerns. I want us to listen to this Christian National Panel with Valdem Barcom, tom Asgore and William Wolfe. They were talking about Christian nationalism. I thought it was a pretty good discussion.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Votie Tom, thank you so much for having me up here to interrogate both of you after that wonderful presentation. I think you guys really laid out for everybody listening, everybody live streaming, the definitions and denials pertaining to Christian nationalism what it is, what it isn't, what it could be, and I think, when we approach the subject, that careful approach of definitions is incredibly important. So, just to kick us off, we'll keep things easy, keep things softball here. If somebody says you know, are you a Christian nationalist? What is your 60 second response to that? Ask Bodhi, ask Bodhi. All right, bodhi, are you a Christian?

Speaker 3: 3:54

nationalist. It depends Okay, like I said, it depends on who's asking, why they're asking and what their definition is. And usually, most times, if somebody's asking the question like that, almost always when I find out what their definition is and why they're asking, almost always it ends up being a no. Because if somebody comes up and they go, are you a Christian nationalist? They're usually talking about that wide-eyed rep, the Bible and the cross and the flag. You know what I mean? That caricature that almost nobody is, you know. So what I found is when people are asking the question that way and you press back, you know what do you mean? How are you defining it? The answer is almost always a no. But when people are, you know, like when you're reading, you know Taking America Back for God, and you look at the list of questions, you know I've finished that and I go. Well, yeah, yes, of course I am.

Speaker 2: 5:07

you know, Sign me up at the State Department. I'm a new ambassador for Christian nationalism.

Speaker 3: 5:11

Yeah, absolutely so, and it may sound like I'm being coy or, you know, trying to dodge or whatever, but it's not that. It's just that this is actually a tool. It's meant as a pejorative, you know, and it's meant as a dodge. So that that's why it's this approach. I mean, I'm not a guy who's embarrassed or ashamed of you know who I am or what I believe, or whatever, but I'm also not a fool who's going to let myself be trapped, you know, by questions like that.

Speaker 4: 5:47

Yeah, it's fascinating to me. I've had three reporters over the last three months contact me because they wanted to interview a Christian nationalist. I gave them your number when as a where they get this you know, uh, I mean, it was really funny.

Speaker 4: 6:03

One guy called me a christian nationalist on social media and uh, I think I said something like you know you're a liar or something. Why would you say something that you don't know? It's true, he took offense. So we, we talked back privately and I said what do you mean by Christian nationalism? And so he gives me his litany. I said I'm not that. He said, well, I thought you were, because you know you're against abortion and you know you don't think LGBTQ stuff ought to be publicized. And I said, yeah, but I'm not what you just said, I am. And in his mind there was just this you know, obvious connection that if you have those views and you've got to be everything else they accuse you of.

Speaker 4: 6:41

Another guy, CNN reporter contacted me. He said we want a leading voice in Christian nationalism to be represented. So who told you I was that? And some leftist journalist called me. That one was Vody. Yeah, okay, and I said well, you send me a list of questions and I'll you know, I'll answer them. So he wrote a list of questions. I answered him and he writes me back. He says thank you, this is very thoughtful. So I don't think I can use any of this.

Speaker 4: 7:06

That's not what I was he said, but I would love to talk to you later because I might want to do another article you know about. So, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm. I'm a little bit put off by the question. I don't answer it straight up typically.

Speaker 2: 7:21

Well, I think that both of you, in your talk and even just now, kind of relayed that groundwork of the need for Christians, for pastors, to be careful when approaching this conversation, this topic, and so when other people define it in a certain way, you'll be inclined to say no or you won't give them what you're looking for. You formulated, via Paul Miller, a definition of Christian nationalism you would be OK with. So we can sort of take that to the bank Votie. Is there a definition of Christian nationalism that you would put forward as a positive definition?

Speaker 3: 7:54

I can work with that. Yeah, I can work with that. And again, I'm not trying, though, to define myself or not define myself. I think, tom, you're saying the same thing that that's one of the definitions that you look at and go okay, if that's what you mean, sure, and that you know that's one.

Speaker 4: 8:14

Yeah, the issues that are raised under that banner in this debate. Those issues are important, yeah, they're important, and I'm happy to talk about the issues and nail my colors to the mast on those particular issues. But just like that guy I forget where vice, I forget what outfit he was with, but he just in his mind he could not separate the fact that you could believe in that life begins at conception and that there ought to be equal protection under the law for pre-born babies the way there are for anybody else outside the womb. And you think drag queen story hour ought to be criminalized, and you know the of things like that. They're just moral absolutes for me.

Speaker 4: 8:57

He couldn't equate that you could believe that and not believe the Bible ought to be wrapped in the flag and that America is in covenant with God and all the wild stuff that gets lumped into it. In his mind it was like these things are just logically connected to each other. You have them all. You don't have them at all, and it just shows the ignorance, the theological ignorance, on the part of a lot of the people that are trying to drive this train. And it is a play. It is indeed that it is that they're attempting to marginalize, if not demonize, people that they oppose on these moral issues.

Speaker 2: 9:35

Okay.

Speaker 2: 9:35

So on the question of if it's a play, I want to dig here and we were talking about this because you both have made this clear connection which I think is undeniable in terms of the actors involved, right, same actors pushing CRT, pushing wokeness, pushing, you know, sort of like a new racism under the guise of racial reconciliation in the church, channeling Marxism.

Speaker 2: 9:58

We saw them pivot to Christian nationalism but, unlike in the CRT fight where the faithful said, no, this is wrong, there are a lot of men, brothers, who are actually saying well, wait a minute. I actually think Christian nationalism has some historical roots, has some biblical basis, so I'm going to try to run this play back on you. So I would like to get you guys to speak to that particularly. I think the success of Stephen's book points to that that Christian nationalism has sort of become in some ways, a rallying cry for young men, in a way that CRT never was. Those same men that rejected CRT actually want to identify as Christian nationalists, and I think it's because there's a very significant historical context that exists for Christian nationalism that didn't for critical theory. So I'd like to hear you guys speak to that, yeah.

Speaker 3: 10:47

And I think that point yes, and I'll come back to that but I think there's also this tendency because it was kind of my tendency too right where if those guys don't like it, then I probably am that.

Speaker 1: 11:04

Right. I mean you know, just for fun, there's some of that right, there's some of that going on?

Speaker 3: 11:09

When you see the list of people you know who are having a problem with it, then you go yeah, that's probably me, you know. So I think there's some of that. I think there's also a sense in which people recognize that those who are throwing that term around are at war with Americanism. You know, they're ashamed of being American. You hear them talking. It's like America is this horrible place that's responsible for all the horrible things, and so people are pushing back against that and they're going no, are we perfect? Absolutely not. But no, that's not who we are. So I think you know, when you combine those right, the us versus them and then this sort of pushback against people who are I mean, I don't know any other way to say it other than they're just, they're anti-American.

Speaker 4: 12:14

Yeah, and I think it ties in as well to what we've lived through the last three years, four years where, uh, we had our supposed betters telling us you know, romans 13 says you've got to obey the government. And who are you and uh to? To not go along with all the medical recommendations and mandates? And I mean, we just had so much that shoved down our throat, and the good thing that happened in response to that is people started reading Romans 13. And so, oh, wait a minute, he's God's servant for good. This ain't good. So what he's doing is wrong.

Speaker 3: 12:50

And reading what people have said about it, reading what Puritans have written about it.

Speaker 4: 12:55

That's right. A lot of this stuff just got uncovered and recovered, which was good, and so that opens up the whole world. It moves a lot of people out of this subjective, mystical pietism. And they were forced to. They were forced to because their families falling apart, business falling apart, their families falling apart in ways they never could have imagined and going back and realizing wait a minute, yeah, this is not the way they told us the Bible actually reads, and we got a lot of ammunition in our history. We got people saying things that resonate with what I'm reading in the Bible, and so I think that whole awakening to historical awareness of how Christians in our heritage have dealt with political issues just kind of, you know, primed the pump for a book like Williams to come along and say Stevens, yeah, don't confuse those two because they're not the same guy.

Speaker 3: 13:54

Yeah, I did it earlier, it's okay.

Speaker 2: 13:58

I told Steven when he was publishing. I said, look, all the criticism is Stevens and all the praise is Williams. There you go and we'll split it up like that, yeah.

Speaker 4: 14:06

So I think that that kind of awakened people to look at the history, to read it, and it's readily available. I mean the stuff you're doing on the colonies. I looked over that this afternoon. I was just everybody. All of them had it. It's not hard Ten minutes, you can figure this out.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Well, the COVID stuff, I think, is actually a good example of where, as Baptists, we would have some disagreements with Stephen in particular and in the book, of where, as Baptists, we would have some disagreements with Stephen in particular and in the book and as a Baptist, because I would like to see the church have a much more robust posture in terms of telling the government, you know, not in the Lord's house and not on the Lord's day, like what you were saying.

Speaker 2: 14:43

I think that's one of the things that makes this conversation so tricky is it's a merger of sort of the civil and the ecclesial lanes and people are confused about the authority. So maybe for our listeners, for the live streamers, if you could just sort of chart out how you understand that authority structure to work, because many of sort of some of the individuals you even named, like Russell Moore, they would say you know, not in the Lord's house, not on Lord's day with a flag and the Bible and the cross, but then they'd also say keep your Christian faith in the Lord's house on the Lord's day and don't take it into the public square. So help our listeners and our audience sort of understand those different lanes of authority that God has given to the church and to the government. That's really the core of this question.

Speaker 3: 15:26

Yeah, spheres Spheres of jurisdiction, sphere of sovereignty. In the simplest terms, god has given us three spheres. He's given us the sphere of the family, he's given us the sphere of the church and the sphere of the government. The family has the rod, the church has the keys and the government has the sword. Those are the three spheres and those are the areas where they're sovereign. And I think sometimes, especially as Baptists, you know, for us we tend to be unique in that many of our other brethren want to unite the sphere of the state and the sphere of the church. Right, and so you do. You have state, church. And Baptists are unique in that we are those folks who say no, state, church, right, but yeah, for us, those three spheres, sovereignty within those three spheres, and the church is the one that ministers to and disciples the other spheres.

Speaker 4: 16:36

Yeah, that's right, and there's overlap, you know, because I'm in all three spheres I'm a member of a church, I'm a member of a family and I'm a member of this nation, a citizen of this nation. So there's overlap and sometimes there's questions about okay, does the government really have the right to tell me, I can only drive 55 miles an hour on this highway. And you can get some philosophical debates about where those lines should be drawn, Usually under 10 over. That's not what it is okay. But with the fundamental understanding that Jesus Christ is Lord, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to him. So every other authority husbands, elders, kings, presidents that they have delegated authority. It's been delegated to them to operate in their spheres. And what we saw happen during COVID is some of our civil authorities started acting like they were popes and monarchs and could dictate everything.

Speaker 4: 17:40

And the family and the family.

Speaker 4: 17:42

And the family yes, right, and that's where clarity needs to happen. How's that going to come? It's going to come from the church, because God's given the word to the church. We are to be the disciples. We are to be the disciples, we're to be the ones that are to teach.

Speaker 4: 17:56

And here's another point that I think is really important on this the threefold use of the law, you know, to bring about conviction, to be a rule of life for believers. The second, sometimes called third, use of the law is one we've neglected a lot, and that is to be a pedagogical influence on culture, to restrain evil in the world, and I don't think we've seen that and applied that enough in our generation. We need to be proclaiming God's law to everybody. You may not have your brother's wife, we just need to be willing to say what God says, because that has a restraining influence, not going to save anybody, but it is a revelation from God, to whom everyone will give an account, and if the church doesn't do that, nobody else has been delegated that responsibility. We are the ones who are the stewards of the word of God, the gospel and the law, and we've got to be the teachers of it.

Speaker 2: 18:53

So I think a real key part of this conversation about Christian nationalism is the state wielding the sword still does it under the authority of God. Absolutely, you guys would both agree with that, all of them it has to be All of the spheres Right.

Speaker 3: 19:07

All of the spheres do under the authority of God.

Speaker 2: 19:10

And so, while God has not licensed the state in any way, to hold a sword at your throat and demand that you confess Christ as king first of all, that's an impossibility. They can't make you actually believe that. What's been lost, I think, in American culture and in secular culture is the idea that the state could actually wield the sword for Christian ends, for Christian ends that aren't necessarily matters pertaining to the gospel and salvation. Thoughts on that, what do you mean by Christian ends?

Speaker 2: 19:39

Well, laws like laws based on Christian morality. You know the idea of, you know the fact that men are men and women are women, that Obergefell should be overturned.

Speaker 3: 19:49

That second use that you just talked about, Right like what Gil was saying that.

Speaker 2: 19:52

Gil quote that Christian kings have a particular interest in the enforcement of both tables. So there would be many of our Baptist brothers would leap and say no, no, no, no, no. The state doesn't have the authority to do anything that is related to the name Christian. But if it's not about the gospel, do they have a concern for that under God? And feel free to rephrase it if you want to engage it differently. But I think this gets at a lot of what again Stephen's arguing, and even somewhat people would say if we don't have a secular state, then what kind of state do we have?

Speaker 4: 20:26

Well, I'm a little nervous about what Gil said. Okay.

Speaker 2: 20:29

Yeah, tease that out, I love.

Speaker 4: 20:30

Gil and appreciate and learn a lot from him. But uh, you know, the thing that gives me pause about just dismissing it out of hand is that gil said it and you know the fact that gil said it.

Speaker 4: 20:44

A peon like me needs to be pretty hesitant to just dismiss it out of hand. I need to be thinking about what did he see what? Why was he saying that? What's the context and all of that and that's what I think has been lost in our day is, man, you make a statement like that and you are. You are absolutely advocating for a church state, you're advocating for everything that baptists got killed for, right and protesting and gills, not that. And so in his mind which nobody ever accused him of being simple-minded in his mind he could make that statement and see it as somehow consistent with all of his Baptist distinctives and commitments. So I want to. I mean, it's an area that I think needs to be openly discussed. I'm free to, I'm wanting to do that, willing to do that, but I have to say you know I looked into that, that's. That's a little uncomfortable there.

Speaker 3: 21:38

Yeah, you know, one of the most popular books in the in the early colonies, Of course you know you have your, your Bible, your, your, your Geneva Bible. But you also have Blackstone's commentary on the laws of england. And you know, I don't know how many of you have seen blackstone's commentary on the laws of england, but it's kind of like you know webster's 1828 dictionary.

Speaker 3: 22:09

in that know you'll have these legal statements and then a scripture reference you know, um, as to as to where these things are, are coming from, um, and clearly, you know, understood and indicated there is that the foundation of this is a biblical foundation, is a biblical foundation. You know, and I think that's important, and a lot of people run away from that and immediately want to say no, you know, we're not a theocracy, whatever, but if our laws are not going to be based on God's moral law, then the question is what else do we have? You know, what other standard are we going to substitute for that that we Christians are going to say okay, yeah, I'm okay with that, because I'm not you know, I'm not.

Speaker 3: 23:09

They have to be based on God's moral law.

Speaker 4: 23:13

And you know natural law gets into this. But the natural law is also God's law. God made nature and so a lot of times that gets separated, especially people that like to call themselves classical liberals, that, you know, appeal to some kind of natural law as opposed to what God has said. But there's a big gap, there's a long way between theocracy and calling drag queen story hour a blessing of freedom. You know those aren't the only options we got.

Speaker 2: 23:42

Yeah, I think that road runs through French, but we'll see. This is what you just said. Votie is exactly right. You can't come away from this. I think you would both, of course, agree. Laws have to have a moral foundation, and it's either going to be the biblical Christian moral foundation or it's going to be a moral foundation made up by man. And how is that working out for us? So, actually, a brother raised this question with me. I thought it was a great question, so I'm going to channel it. This is a free one from the audience. Could you explain the difference between Christian nationalism as you would understand it? Try to picture a Christian nationalism. You would agree with A Christian nationalism? You would agree with theonomy and theocracy? For the audience, because a lot of people confuse those right. A lot of people confuse theonomy and christian nationalism, and those are different things, all three of them.

Speaker 4: 24:34

I mean theocracy would be the easiest one, I think, for me to talk about. Uh, because it would want to have a nation that is governed consciously by religious laws, and so you have theocracy, you have Muslim theocracies and you have had Christian attempts at theocracy and you have Old Testament, israel, theocracy, theonomy I mean, there's a theonomy is another one of these things. I cut my teeth on the Rush Dooney theonomy, the Bonson theonomy in the 70s and 80s. I mean, I had to cut my teeth on it. That's what I tried to learn. That's where I was first introduced to it and benefited from some and saw some real hesitations about it.

Speaker 4: 25:13

Today there's what is being called general equity theonomy, and to me those seem like two different things. The Confession talks about the civil laws no longer being binding on us. You know they're obsolete, except for insofar as the general equity in them can be seen and applied. Well, yeah, I mean we ought to recover that. I think that's what's happening. And the people who are recovering it, some of them say well, that's theonomy and we're general equity theonomists.

Speaker 4: 25:50

Well, where I come from, you can believe in general equity or you can believe in theonomy, but you can't do them both, and so that's confusing to me. I want to let people define their own terms, but it's just odd to me from my background. Christian nationalism again, I don't feel compelled to have to defend that or to say, yeah, let me give you a version of it that I think is right and good, and let's run the issues are important. The tag yeah, let me give you a version of it that I think is right and good, and let's run the issues are important. The tag yeah, I'm indifferent to that almost.

Speaker 2: 26:12

When people ask you are you a theonomist, do you say define what you mean by it. No, I always say no.

Speaker 4: 26:18

And most of them get mad at me and they say, but you said this and you said that. But yeah, well, once we get into the fine point of defining it in this, and you said that. But yeah, well, once we get into the fine point of defining it. In fact, I've come to agreement with some folks that call themselves theonomists and I don't, but they're talking about general equity in my mind, and so that's fine.

Speaker 2: 26:34

Votie anything to add to that no.

Speaker 3: 26:37

And this is partly a 1689 and Westminster issue, especially pre-95.

Speaker 1: 26:44

Westminster issue which is-95 Westminster issue.

Speaker 3: 26:46

That's right, which is again, that's inside baseball. But yeah, no, not a theonomist.

Speaker 2: 26:53

Well, moving on to the next topic I would like you guys to address is what is the relationship of a Christian to classical liberalism, or democracy or constitutional republic? In other words, do know, do Christians, are they obligated by scripture to prefer a particular form of government? Because when you hear from a lot of the anti-Christian nationalists, particularly like Paul Miller, whose book I recently read and reviewed, I mean the man seems to think that along with the Ten Commandments, we got classical liberalism from Moses. And when you listen to other folks in the evangelical world, they seem to almost worship democracy and anything that would infringe upon it is scary. Scary is a big word they like to use. So just tease out what a Christian's relationship should be to a form of government. I mean, could a Christian prefer christian prince if they wanted to, or is that off limits?

Speaker 3: 28:15

I think, at the end of the day, the problem that we have is that we have an underdeveloped public theology right that that's. That's why we got iOPT right. I think, at the end of the day, christians don't know how to think biblically and think Christianly about the civic sphere. When you don't know how to think critically and think biblically about the civic sphere, you become a slave to other people's definitions, and I think that's where people are. So what happens is you find someone who says things that you like and that person identifies themselves as classical, liberal or theonomist or whatever, um, and, and so, because of the, the issues that you agree on and the things that you begin to say well, that's the camp that I'm in, but you can't define it and you can't defend it and you can't speak intelligently to what the scriptures might say about it.

Speaker 3: 29:28

And I think that's where our problem is, and part of that is because of, um, the influence of pietism. For so long you know the idea that you know real, true Christianity, is that Christianity that's about me and my salvation and my holiness? You know within the four walls of the church, um, you know and, and and not out there, um, you know within the four walls of the church, you know, and not out there, you know, you get people who've spent enough time in that. And then you get the public sphere that basically comes crashing in on us, demanding things of us, forcing us right to have to engage, and all of a sudden we don't have the tools and so we just go look for labels. Mm-hmm, was it Churchill who said?

Speaker 4: 30:12

that democracy is the second worst kind of government. And all of a sudden we don't have the tools and so we just go look for labels. Was it Churchill who said that democracy is the second worst kind of government, second only to all the rest?

Speaker 2: 30:18

something like that, something like that.

Speaker 4: 30:20

You know. I think that's right. I think you could have a Christian prince. I don't think the Bible prescribes a set form of political civil structure. I think what we have in a constitutional republic is really good because it takes seriously the theological realities, like depravity and like the flourishing and what God's designed the world to be and dominion. So the checks and balances in the system I think is wonderful. I don't think that where you would have a righteous prince or king, that that would be something unchristian or that you couldn't prosper there. I think you could prosper there. I think you have a greater danger of difficulties there because you've got one guy and when one guy goes bad you've got all kinds of problems, whereas we've got checks and balances on one guy, we've got all kind of problems, whereas we got checks and balances on one guys we got. We got old systems and parties we got to deal with.

Speaker 2: 31:15

But you're there's no, there's not going to be any utopian governmental system well, as both of you alluded to in your talks, there's far more pressing issues in the nation right now than the quote-unquote threat of christian nationalism. I mean, honestly, you could say that, say that the much bigger issue is LGBTQ nationalism, rainbow pride nationalism you see pictures of classrooms with gay pride flag, trans flag, black Lives Matter flag. It's secular nationalism and I think that I don't think. I know, I know that thousands, hundreds of thousands of Christians out there, christian families, are trying to figure out how to press back against this age.

Speaker 2: 31:54

You know, flannery O'Connor said press back against the age as hard as it presses on you. So, and I think some are turning I'm not trying to trap you, tom Some are turning to Christian nationalism as an alternative. But so then, what would you brothers say to pastors, to Christians? You know what does it look like for us to try to step out into that public square, shake off the pietism and regain ground in the culture, if we can, for a more Christian society uh, certainly more than the one that we're seeing today.

Speaker 3: 32:24

Yeah, I think that's happening and that's kind of what I was alluding to before the culture's not leaving us an option. A lot of people, a lot of pietists, believed that if we left the culture alone, the culture would leave us alone. And nobody's thinking that anymore, nobody's buying that lie anymore.

Speaker 2: 32:45

I just want to pause you there real quick. I mean, they just must not have read their Old Testament that way. I'm telling you man, Because God made it very clear that the nations weren't going to leave Israelites alone.

Speaker 3: 32:54

No, not at all. And so now, all of a sudden, the culture comes crashing in and says you must approve of this. You know you must use these pronouns, you must bake cakes for these events. You know you must, you must, you must, you must. And as a result of that, you know, now people are being awakened out of their slumber and they are running to. You know, whatever they can find, where people are are, are standing up. So, yeah, I think in many ways that we don't have to call people out of that anymore, because it's not an option anymore. You have to try real hard to not be involved in this fight at this point.

Speaker 4: 33:48

Yeah, but there are churches all over they're compromising and they're refugees from. I mean, christians are serious, love their church, been with them for some decades that just weep because of how the culture is just taken over and they're genuflecting to the high priests of culture. And so to your question. What I've said for years now, even long before this stuff broke out in recent years, is the best thing you can do as a christian to live well in this world is find a healthy church and build your life around it. I mean, do what you got to do and I agree.

Speaker 4: 34:24

For people there's no health, no churches and 100 miles of me and, uh, that's, that's sad. Move, move Well, but I got business. What's more important to you? You can have your business over here and lose your children, or you can move and maybe have to work at a 7-Eleven and help build your life around a healthy church for the welfare of your children. So there's no substitute for that. But a healthy church is the key, a church that's going to take these things seriously and is going to push back against the darkness that keeps encroaching in.

Speaker 2: 35:00

A couple of rapid-fire questions here. So cultural Christianity good or bad?

Speaker 3: 35:07

Yes, Voting Absolutely yes. Okay so it's both, and I'm going to give you an example of that. You know, I read the statement from the preamble of the Zambian Constitution and people hear that and they're always like you know, yeah, amen. You know, I wish we had that in our Constitution and the Zambians wish they had our Christian heritage, because they don't, and the Christian heritage is far more important than the statement in the Constitution.

Speaker 2: 35:41

What a bunch of white Christian nationalists.

Speaker 3: 35:43

Yeah, yeah yeah, so the foundations that we have, that we are now despising. That's what differentiates us.

Speaker 4: 35:55

Yeah, the cultural Christianity as an inevitable effect of vital Christianity, that's great, because it doesn't exist except where there's vital Christianity. The attempt to try to replicate cultural Christianity because you like being able to sleep with your doors unlocked and you just wish you could get back to Mayberry, you know? No, that's goofy, that's silly, it's not going to happen. You're trying to get the cart before the horse. So if cultural Christianity exists because of vital Christianity, cultural Christianity carries with it its own set of problems. Everybody thinks they're a Christian. You know, I came from Dallas before I moved here and we had like.3 Christians per capita in Dallas.

Speaker 3: 36:37

I mean, everybody was a Christian two or three times over there had to get them lost before you could get a save.

Speaker 4: 36:41

That's exactly it. I'm a Christian. I say no, you're not. Let's just start there. So it is good and bad. The good is whenever you've got the real. This stuff trickles out of it. The bad is whenever you look at the effects, the good effects of having a neighborhood that's safe, that's trickled out of vital Christianity, and you start going after that. You think, oh, we've got to recreate that. Well, you've forgotten how you got that and never let the cultural Christianity become a substitute for the real thing.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Well, and that's where I think Francis Schaeffer talked about, the cultural Christianity become a substitute for the real thing. Well, and that's where I think Francis Schaeffer talked about you want to pray for spiritual revival in churches and work for cultural renewal, and those can go together right at the same time Reformation and revival. Should nations be Christian? Should nations aspire to be Christian? Yes or no.

Speaker 3: 37:34

Yes.

Speaker 4: 37:35

In the sense Votie, you defined it yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:37

Okay. So when you say yes Votie, how are you envisioning a nation aspires to be Christian?

Speaker 3: 37:43

Listen. Acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. Kiss the son, you know. Kiss the son. Recognize that. Recognize the Lordship of Christ, you know, blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. So yeah, and I mean in that sense, we, just we absolutely should be praying for, yearning for and striving for that.

Speaker 4: 38:08

You know, a question that started rattling around in my mind the last couple of years is if this generation of Americans had the opportunity and were given the assignment to create a new nation, we couldn't create what this nation is. We couldn't do it, we'd create a monster. I mean, why is that? Because we don't have the benefits of godliness that came about from the massive deposits of vital Christianity over centuries that God did in the purity movement out of the Reformation and the awakenings that we had in this colonial period as well. All of that provided a moral capital that was utilized in the framing of this nation that we're.

Speaker 4: 38:56

We're bankrupt today and if you look at it that way, what is our greatest need? It is revival, and, and that's why the church cannot get caught up and say, hey, we're going to go change society. You know, man, we're going to go out there and we're going to get our politicians doing our stuff. You know that there's a place for christians to to be concerned about that, but if you're more concerned about that than you are about God sending the spirit down with power, you're just not thinking as carefully as you ought to, as theologically or historically as you ought to, about how we got what we benefited from for so long.

Speaker 3: 39:34

And we're also thinking too big. Everybody's thinking nationally and not locally. Yeah, and if COVID taught?

Speaker 4: 39:45

us anything.

Speaker 3: 39:45

it taught us that it's more important who your sheriff is than who your president is. Yeah, that's right. Right. And so if everybody is just looking for the next great president, who can fix America? And that's not how this works, that's not how you build this. You know, it's a small local me, my family, my church, my community, you know, yeah, you don't get there by. You know, let's put the right guy at the top and then everything will filter out. No, that's not how it works.

Speaker 2: 40:24

Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought up localism. I know that there are a lot of folks interested in Christian nationalism in this conversation who regularly say well, you know what about localism? And I think that's right. Edmund Burke called the family the little platoon of society, and that's what you want to focus on Again. In ways, I think this resonates with young men and young women who are seeking to sort of break out of the you know hyper-sexualized dating, you know app culture and actually pursue a healthy church, a healthy marriage, a healthy family and sort of starts at home.

Speaker 2: 40:55

Back quickly, though, to the Christian nation question. So, between sort of a Jonathan Lehman and you brought out some of these critiques too. You said Stephen's assessment of calling a nation Christian you know, attenuating from a Christian man sort of falls apart a man's repentant. On the other side of things, we'll have someone like Jonathan Lehman and also a Baptist saying, well, you can't call a nationian because the nation can't be regenerate. But both of your brothers just said nations should aspire to be christian. So, you know, do you think that that's an approach? You do think that that's an appropriate label a nation could assume for itself when you use bode's qualifications about ethos.

Speaker 4: 41:33

Yeah, I mean, of course it's the effects of vital christianity. It's not saying this is how you get vital christianity by pulling the right levers in the voting booth and getting the right man in office. It's not that. It's an acknowledgement that there's god in heaven and he sent his son to this world. He's spoken to us in his word. His law is true and right and good and we're going to honor that. And how do you get there? You get there by people coming to know this God. I mean and again, that's what the church's assignment is is to make disciples. So when that happens, you know, is my family Christian? Yeah, when before my kids were converted, we were a Christian family, they could say my father's God is my God, even though they had not been born again yet and they knew that in our home we were going to worship jesus christ. That's, you know, that's just that was a significant part of their identity. Did that make them christian? No, but I don't have any qualms about calling that a christian home and lehman's.

Speaker 3: 42:33

lehman's argument breaks down very quickly, because you know, a nation can't be Christian because it's not regenerate. Ok, how about a seminary? How about a college?

Speaker 2: 42:48

Right, or an institute of public theology. How about a church?

Speaker 3: 42:52

How about a church Right Again? In that sense, I mean, if you, if you want to be that reductionistic, it just it doesn't work. That dog won't hunt.

Speaker 2: 43:04

It's interesting you say that how about a church? Because even as somebody who believes in regenerate church membership, which you both do as well, we do recognize that, even with a body, that we are practicing church discipline to ensure that everybody is regenerate, not everybody is going to be regenerate Right, and we still call it a Christian church, right.

Speaker 1: 43:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:21

Even if you practice that carefully, I think we're running up to our time here, so this might be a little bit of a tough one. You can take it quickly though, but I know I've also heard from a lot of faithful believers who say weep over the present evil of abortion. Or we look at past sins of slavery and segregation in America and say how could you call us, how could we ever say we were a Christian nation? We enslaved people. Or how could you ever say we are a Christian nation? We're slaughtering millions of unborn in the womb. You know how do we deal with sort of national sins, even in the context of something that could be called a christian nation yeah, it's the same thing.

Speaker 3: 44:04

We're talking about our ethos, we're talking about our foundation, and the flip side of that is we have an answer and remedy and we have something to call our nation to because of our ethos, whereas if we're just a secular nation, why are you complaining, right?

Speaker 4: 44:24

right, we, we can only complain about those evils and call them evils because we're not a secular nation amen, yeah, that's right, and the heritage is there, just as in the civil rights movement, the abolitionist movement, to say we need to live up to what we say, we are and what we have been. And I think that's the argument today against abortion.

Speaker 2: 44:48

Well, brothers, thank you for your time. Closing comments. Encouragements to this crowd and to our listeners, you know, as they walk out from here, what should they think about Christian nationalism?

Speaker 4: 45:02

Be a real Christian and act like it. That's all I know.

Speaker 3: 45:07

Amen.

Speaker 2: 45:09

Amen, let's give a round of applause. Thank you, brother. That was fun. Thank you, brother. Yeah, that was fun.

Speaker 1: 45:19

Thank you for listening. Go to biblicaltalkscom and leave me a comment on what you think about this panel. Have a blessed day.