Real Life Investing With Jason & Rachel Wagner

49. Life-Saving Swim Lessons with ISR Instructor Jamie Berger

• Jason & Rachel Wagner • Season 3 • Episode 21

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Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with our children's ISR (Infant Swimming Resources) instructor, Jamie Berger of Safe Swim LLC. 

In this episode, we promise you'll gain a deep understanding of the benefits of ISR lessons over traditional swim programs. Unlike conventional methods, ISR lessons are tailored to each child's needs, featuring frequent, shorter sessions that enhance retention and effectiveness. 

Jamie also discusses the common misconceptions about ISR, and if you and your child understand the concept of "skills before thrills," you can expect to achieve incredible life saving results.

A must listen for any parent with young children!

If you are interested in getting in touch with Jamie, below is the best contact information:

Jamie Berger
www.safeswimisr.com
Email: Jamieberger@infantswim.com

Rachel Wagner:

Welcome back to another episode of the Real Life Investing Podcast with Jason and Rachel Wagner. Today we have a very special guest that we're going to introduce, ms Jamie Berger. Ms Jamie and we say Ms Jamie because she is an instructor for our children. She is our swim instructor for ISR and she has been the most influential teacher that our children have had. You guys are going to make me cry. Well, I'm not kidding. Every single day, our youngest Layla, wakes up and asks me, as I'm changing her diaper am I swimming with Jamie? Today Is today swim with Jamie. I mean, they just adore you and they have learned so much from you. So we are so excited to have you on the show and share our ISR story and, more specifically, yours and how you got into this and what it is and what it means for kids. So, and how you got into this and what it is and what it means for kids. So thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jamie Berger:

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.

Rachel Wagner:

Yeah, we are so excited. So ISR I'm not going to give the history, I will let you do that, but I will just share that we found ISR about a year ago when we bought our house, because we were buying a house with a pool, which is something I never thought I would do because, of obvious reasons, had young kids and the risk of drowning obviously was a top of mind. So I started doing research and came across a swim program called ISR and said, jason, we have to do this, we have to do this. So, jamie, can you share a little bit what? What is ISR?

Jamie Berger:

Yes, so ISR stands for infant swimming resources, which is kind of it's a little bit misleading because we can teach from six months old to six years old. I've taught nine-year-olds and stuff before too, so it's not really just a specific age group. But there is a guy named Harvey Barnett and he started ISR many, many, many moons ago. So he was just like a surfer dude that lived in Florida, lived at his parents' house, I believe, and in Florida there's pools in everyone's backyards, and so he was kind of getting tired of the continued story of children drowning in his parents' neighborhood. So he was like, how can I fix this? You know, how can I solution for this and help these kids survive if they were to make their way to water by themselves? I believe he started with five-year-old boys, came up with the concept of swim, float, swim. You know, if you can self-rescue, you can get on your back on your own and then find your way to the side and get yourself out. Then you have much more of a chance. You know, obviously pools and open water are very different concepts, but from a pool standpoint or a lake or a retention pond those kinds of things. So he started with five-year-old boys and then kind of just expanded from there and then I think once he got a lot of traction from that, then he started training people to have a similar concept as what he basically taught himself.

Jamie Berger:

Fast forward a number of years. He then basically got like an honorary degree from a behavioral psychology standpoint, because a lot of what we do it's science-based. You know it's all based on reinforcements, you know, positive or negative and allowing kids to actively engage in the environment in a safe way so that we can kind of teach them. You guys have witnessed it. There's there's a lot that goes into it. If you met me when I was in my first, probably two years of teaching, I didn't do a lot of talking to parents. But now I can kind of build a relationship with the parents while I'm teaching, because you know I've taught well over 800 kids now at this point and so I can kind of pay attention to the movements and things that are happening and reinforce that as I'm building relationships.

Jason Wagner:

And honestly I want to point out because when I would go to some of these lessons with you, you were talking to me and I'm like at first I was like, well, is she paying attention to what's going?

Jamie Berger:

on in the water.

Jason Wagner:

I'm like, obviously you were but like you just had so much confidence in, like, what you were doing and this was my first time and I was just like I don't really know what to expect here. But you know, you just kind of think of it like okay, I know they can't swim, you've got your hands very much off of them, you've actually got your phone taking pictures of them in the water and I'm like she really knows what she's doing. You know, like you just got that sense and then you would tell me like okay, I'm doing this and this, and like you're talking to me that whole 10 minutes and again, like that's just a skill set that I'd never, ever seen before, right? So that's just like there's a master in the room and we're really learning from you. So that was cool. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for saying that, sure, sure.

Jamie Berger:

I think a part of that is also, you know, I my background. So I originally I was a vet tech for a number of years. I did ER and ICU overnights for a long time. Then I was in day practice for a while and so dealing with emergency situations, you have to think about a number of different things at one time. Then fast forward. I went from being a vet tech, got married, realized I didn't really want to work overnights we were probably going to have a family at some point. So switched to the corporate world. I was in sales and then worked my way up through project management and then, while I was doing that, I was pregnant, had my daughter and I was like I, the regular swim lessons just don't quite make sense to me. So then found ISR, had my daughter go through ISR. Then fast forward a little bit. I worked for a medical waste me. So then found ISR, had my daughter go through ISR. Then fast forward a little bit. I worked for a medical waste company.

Jamie Berger:

So 2020 was really hard. I was working all hours of the day because I supported global efforts and I was like I don't really want to do this. I don't want to be the mom that's missing bedtime, that's missing dance, that's missing dinner, and so I was like maybe I can be an ISR instructor and, crazy enough, I made it happen. But I think my history of having to juggle so many different things I was able to once I honed in on the skill set of not being so nervous. Teaching the kids, then building relationships is is something that's so important. You know, on mom, talking to another mom, that's how I get my business Right, and so building relationships is is huge, and you guys probably know that from the real estate standpoint as well.

Jason Wagner:

Oh for sure, yeah, yeah. I mean when you're like a master at your craft, people want to refer you and like that it's very clear and obvious. We're only with you for 10 minutes really 20, because we have two kids with you but 10 minutes is all it takes and it's very, very impressive what has gone down. So can we kind of compare, because actually, rachel, we've been through like a traditional swim class.

Rachel Wagner:

Yeah, so actually we started both girls at swimming lessons at like four months old with like a swim school where they just did traditional once a week 30 minute lesson and with us until like two, two and a half, until they basically didn't listen with us in the pool anymore. Then they moved to like the instructor leg classes, but we did that like very pretty consistently. Obviously there was some interruption from COVID, but you know we did those lessons and there was a comfort in the water that certainly existed.

Rachel Wagner:

And there was a little bit of like listening skills that were starting like they'd kick your feet when you told them to kick your feet, but you're holding them the whole time, you know. And so when we bought the house with the pool, it wasn't enough for us to feel super comfortable, you know. So I guess you did mention a couple of things. One, jason you've mentioned a couple of times that the lesson's only 10 minutes, so that was certainly like a head scratcher. And then you shared too that they're very different from traditional lessons. So can you share a little bit about why they're different and how they're different?

Jamie Berger:

So lessons are like up to 10 minutes a day, five days a week, for about five to seven weeks. It depends on the instructor, it depends on the kid. You know some kids could take 14 weeks, Some kids could take three weeks. You just never know. And so I will say any swim lesson is better than than no swim lesson.

Jamie Berger:

If you would have talked to me in the first two years of my ISR journey, I would have had very strong feelings about traditional lessons versus ISR lessons. Honestly, it's really hard. It's really hard to get access to ISR lessons. You know there's not a lot of us out there. It's hard to get on my schedule. My schedule is built around my kids' schedule, right. So it's hard. So any swim lesson is better than no swim lesson, but I will say so. The concept of the 10 minutes a day, five days a week you know you don't learn to walk or crawl practicing once a week for 30 to 45 minutes, right. If you compare ISR to traditional swim lessons, or even if you think back to kids learning to hold their head up, you practice tummy time to get them to hold their head up five minutes at a time, three times a day, right.

Jamie Berger:

And so kids fatigue really fast. Physically they fatigue, temperature-wise they fatigue. If you're tired you're not going to retain a lot of information. So within those 10 minutes we do work them very hard. I have so many people that reach out to me that want to get on the wait list and they're like why, like what? Can you just extend the lessons? Like just come and see a lesson and then you'll see why 10 minutes is enough? And so you know, we teach them for those up to 10 minutes, give them a 24 hour break and then that compounds over the six weeks.

Jamie Berger:

But every kid's very different, so we teach. It's not like I go into every lesson and say this is exactly what I'm doing today. Today we're working on kicks, or today we're working on breath control, or today we're working on floating. Like I just teach what's in front of me that day. Kids are different every day. They're moving target. They could be teething, they could be tired. They could be teething, they could be tired, they could. You know, I don't they. They could just not feel it Like same thing, like same thing with us. We may be just having a day, and so I try and meet them where they're at and then decide how to approach it from there.

Jason Wagner:

And that's, that's the beauty of just like one-on-one instruction, because it is very personalized and and you are able to kind of read the room of what's happening with that child.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, and I think, like with ISR, with being one-on-one and then traditional lessons being more of a group setting, it's hard, Like their attention span doesn't last that long. The pool may be a little bit colder. You know, I've had a lot of swim families, you know, say they have three kids and I've taught the two younger ones and the older one. Their schedule is a little bit harder because they're in school full time. The parents have done a cost comparison, a time comparison, all that stuff, and they end up paying loads more for the traditional lessons because they're like my seven-year-old still can't swim independently, but my 18 month old can, and that's you know. And then they go back to those traditional lessons with the seven year old and they're like well, my kid's really only swimming eight minutes of the 45, you know there, and so I'm paying more because think of how the years taking longer too, yeah.

Jamie Berger:

And so it it's. It's an investment time financially blood, sweat and tears because there are some tears, yeah, and but like it pans out. You know you guys have said like I am looked at in your kids eyes, like this very special person totally, totally, yeah, if you would have asked them week one, two, three, maybe three, maybe not, maybe the whole first session.

Jason Wagner:

They were a little fearful of you when they first started, but let's kind of get into that, because I think there's kind of I guess you could say controversy around it, like, is that a thing?

Rachel Wagner:

Well, and some misconceptions, because I certainly had them, because I didn't consider ISR lessons until we bought this house and I did my research and my misconception of it Well.

Jason Wagner:

how did you hear about it first?

Rachel Wagner:

Well, yeah, I mean I didn't know ISR specifically, but I knew there was this other lesson out there that would just throw kids in the pool and see what happens.

Jason Wagner:

Sometimes. That's how I explain it to people.

Rachel Wagner:

I'm just like you know, but I do it as like a guy thing. That's what I thought it was. It's much more gentle, yeah, it's way more gentle than that, like that was so not?

Jason Wagner:

yeah, most people I talk to they're like what is ISR? I'm like have you ever heard of like people? They just kind of chuck the babies in the pool and they just like you know, it's kind of like that, but I say it in more of a comedy way, right?

Jamie Berger:

yeah, for sure. I mean, you have to bring light to it yeah, how right, it's because the other side of it is really sad.

Jamie Berger:

So I like to explain to people if you're not good at something, you're not going to really want to do it. Right, like if I don't know how to golf. If I went to go learn how to golf today, the words that I would be saying would not be very polite, right, I'd be like I'm terrible at this, I never want to do this again. So it's the similar concept. Right, you're not going to feel comfortable until you have the confidence. We like to say skills before thrills. Right, when you finally have the skills, then the thrills can come. But when you practice and you start to realize that you're being independent and you start to realize that you're the one making the decision in the water, like, meaning the kids are and I'm not the one guiding you anymore, then the thrills come. But I wouldn't want to do anything that I wasn't good at.

Jamie Berger:

And they're not really good at it until they learn it and they might also have like for older kids. When they start they're like well, I go to this one pool and I just sing songs and I have a lot of fun and then I come here and I have to work really hard and I don't want to work really hard.

Jamie Berger:

Who does? And so I would have big feelings about that as well. But then you know a lot of it is because it's kind of a balance there's. You know the hot topics of gentle parenting and stuff now. So it is a hard thing to see your kid crying in a stranger's arms because you know you guys don't really know me yet. Once you get to know me, then you realize like I'm not a bad guy. But it's hard to see that and hard to talk them through it.

Jamie Berger:

So fear is a learned behavior and so, for example, if you are jumping off the couch maybe not the smartest decision If you get hurt jumping off the couch, you're going to be more hesitant to do it right Because you're negatively reinforced by getting hurt jumping off the couch. If someone says, don't jump off the couch, you're going to get hurt, then they're also a little bit more hesitant. But kids are a hundred percent curious, so they're going to try and find out on their own. And so if you take that concept, if you continue to say it's okay to be afraid, they're going to think that they need to be afraid. So I, we are big on word choices in our family, and so it's more so like it's okay to be nervous. You can do hard things. I do hard things every day.

Jason Wagner:

I love that you say that to them, because that's consistently yeah you you say that all the time, and I think that's a really good motto is that you can do hard things. Yeah, yeah, I love that You've like tagged that as your thing.

Jamie Berger:

I have had so many people tell me stories of like we were at the park the other day and I was asking my kid if they needed help doing something, and they're like mom, I can do hard things, or like parents being like I'm going through a rough time and because you tell my kid every day that he can do hard things, I know that I can do hard things.

Jason Wagner:

Yes.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah.

Jason Wagner:

I have to remind myself that you actually impact the parents more than the kids, I bet.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, you expect your kids to sit up, you expect them to crawl, you expect them to walk, you don't expect them to self-rescue, and so the profound moment of proudness that you have when you see your kids self-rescue independently is a feeling like no other, and I witnessed that as a swim parent myself, and then I wanted to share that feeling with everyone, like it's just, it's so cool, but, yeah, and I also like working with kids. You're kind of like a stay at home mom, because your bosses are these, you know, little kids that are going to yell at you all day, and so the parent, the adult interaction that I get is with you guys poolside. So that's probably also another reason why I talk so much now is because I'm like this is my social media adult, yeah, yeah, adult conversation.

Rachel Wagner:

Yeah, Okay, there's so many things I want to go back to. Well, I guess I'll just also say, like, with the like us following how you talk to the kids, and specifically our kids, I feel like I have mimicked you a lot and and changed the way that I talk to our kids too. And I've caught Scarlett at gymnastics. Actually, when she goes up on the high beam she's like talking to herself and talking herself up. I can see it in the video and she's like okay, one, two, three, you know. And I have heard her say I can do hard things.

Jason Wagner:

Oh, I have heard her say I can do hard things. Oh, I've heard her say I can do hard things.

Rachel Wagner:

Yes, she talks herself up.

Jason Wagner:

I can do this, Like you know, like she throws her arms down and she closes her eyes and like she's imagining herself, like doing it.

Rachel Wagner:

Yes, yeah totally and that 100% came from you.

Jamie Berger:

That's a you thing. It totally is.

Rachel Wagner:

So it's not just in the water, and that's why I say you've been the most influential instructor for them, because it has really spilled over into so many other areas of our life.

Jamie Berger:

I mean, we even do the high five knuckles, jellyfish thing like all the time, and that I have to give credit to my master instructor because he created that handshake and then I adopted it. But he also taught my daughter at a certain point too. So I was like you know, I'm a swim parent, I can steal this. It's so fun to see so much count, like when they realize that they can do something hard.

Jason Wagner:

They can do all other hard things, yes Well and like I kind of want to point this out, because when our kids, like they, just start crying, they, they break down and again, your lesson is only 10 minutes. So like for me to get Scarlett to want to do something if she just starts crying and for me to kind of like push her to continue doing it for the next 10 minutes is nearly impossible. But you have these little tricks, which which is the handshake, and you know just these small little things that you tell them. Somehow they're able to calm down and continue with the lesson, so that it's not just 10 minutes of crying and not doing anything, like it's, it's just like pure mastery what you're doing and so cool.

Jamie Berger:

I want it goes back to like the behavioral psychology of a lot of it too, and word choices. I I say a lot when, and then I'm not giving you a choice. When you do this, then we'll do that right. Like I'm not above bribery or bargaining. I use it at home too, like when you brush your teeth. You know, in the morning when you brush your teeth then you can fine have a piece of candy. You know I'll lose that battle today, but there's no if. If you brush your teeth then you get candy. You're giving them a choice to say no, no, it's when, when you choose to do this Right.

Jamie Berger:

So then I use that a lot in lessons where it's like, well, when you do this swim for four seconds, then we can do what you want, and then you know, and then we just kind of go from there. But I also don't really give them the opportunity, we just work them really hard, tire them out. You know, kids eat better during lessons, they sleep better during lessons. They are a little bit nicer. You know, I experienced that as a swim parent myself. It's a different type of workout.

Rachel Wagner:

Oh yeah, for sure, definitely sleep great on swim days oh, for sure, um, so there was a.

Jason Wagner:

There was a lesson where we had scarlet and layla. They both came in their full outfits, yes, and their clothes, yes, walking clothes. Can you talk through like what that whole concept is?

Jamie Berger:

absolutely so, I think. I think the numbers are like 86% of the time that there is a aquatic event, it is during non-swim time. So that's this is when you're packing up the bags to leave the beach, or packing up your your pool bags, you know, folding up the towels, putting them in the bag and they just run back to the water. They think that was something that I was having a lot of fun doing. I'm just going to go back, or it's. You know, you run inside to grab a hot dog and they're running back in.

Jamie Berger:

And so the concept is is that we want them to practice fully clothed, because if they're to make their way to water by themselves alone, it's likely that they'll be clothed to some capacity, and so it. For me, it kind of depends on the time of year, and you know ISR is offered all over. There were a few people that I added to my team a while ago and their master instructor came all the way from Portugal, so you know it's offered over in Europe as well. So seasonality comes with it. So, like right now, if I was to do a clothing lesson, I'd probably do one day of like pajamas or summer clothes, and then the next day would be like fall clothes, so like cool night by the lake, and then during winter we do like normal day, whatever they'd wear to school that day, and then full winter clothes.

Jason Wagner:

So like the parka.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes parents are like, well, you know, like this time of year they're like can we do three days and we do full winter gear the third day? I'm like, absolutely Like, if you want to see that I have no, I have no concerns with doing that at all. But it's also like this time of year all the kids have grown since last year Like, do you have the sizes available for full winter gear? And our winter concept of clothes is very different than Florida. Right, our fall clothes is winter's Florida clothes or is Florida's winter clothes? So, yeah, it's really cool when you see it.

Jamie Berger:

It's a little bit daunting when you see it, sometimes too. Like for my daughter, when she did her winter clothes the first time, we had to do it twice. She was. She was only like eight and a half months old when she first started and so she was her. The coat was way too big. And now again, as an instructor, I've made those adjustments so that my families don't have to experience that where her her body was horizontal, face down in the water, but her face was actually up above the water.

Jamie Berger:

Like she was breathing underneath the hood but she was too small to like get the hood off of her face right, so she was up like she was breathing, but she wasn't on her back yet and she had a really hard time getting on her back because the winter coat that we had at that time was just too big, and so sometimes it's. It doesn't always go as planned. Sometimes there are kids that have a lot of movement in their float. So there's also the concept that, like sometimes, I'll put the kids on their back and in their float and parents will be like, oh great kicks. And while I appreciate the encouragement, I'm also like I never get in the way of what parents are saying to their kids. I just teach around it because you guys are going to be with them most often. But we actually try and slow down those kicks when they're on their back, because if they're kicking they're just going to totally flood their face with water or like with Scarlett she's a little bit older Sometimes those feet drop right.

Jamie Berger:

Which now we've pretty much corrected it and we've changed the way that she does kick on her back, so it's a little bit more productive. But sometimes I'll use layering clothes on them to slow down some of that movement. If I can't do it, based on reinforcements and they're just, like you know, a rambunctious wild kid and there's always, they're always in a constant state of motion Like I can work with that. But let's weigh them down a little bit and make them realize oh, I don't have to work that hard. Floating can be a lot easier than it is.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, yeah, I didn't learn to swim this way at all. Oh no, did you no?

Rachel Wagner:

No.

Jason Wagner:

Like the whole concept of you know Scarlett and Layla, so they'll swim forward and then they'll get tired and they'll like quickly shift to their back and Layla can do it like so fast she's so fast, she's just like.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah.

Jason Wagner:

And she can do it the full length of our pool, and how far would you say that is Our pool? I?

Jamie Berger:

don't know, 15 yards 10 yards.

Jason Wagner:

I don't know Something like that. It's a big pool back there, right, and you know, and she was doing that while she was still two. It's just, it's just incredible the skills that that come out of this and so how far so. But kids, you said, can start at six months. Yeah which is shocking. Yeah, and then how far do you end up taking them again?

Jamie Berger:

So if they start around six months, between like six months and two, I personally like to just teach the rollback to float. They're closer to two, then I'll teach the full swim. Float swim you can. If they can walk, then we can teach the swim. I just find that sometimes the swim is not as productive, at like 15 months, 18 months, and so, yeah, they're, like you know, swimming face down for a few seconds and then they turn onto their back and then they float for a few breaths and then they turn and swim again, but they're not going to be able to have the endurance to get across the whole pool, right? So in an aquatic emergency, from my perspective and all ISR instructors could probably have different opinions on this they're going to float and wait for help, right?

Jamie Berger:

If they're at a pool that they don't know exit points. You know they're just going to float, so I find that I keep them in their float a little bit longer and then, around two, then I can start transitioning them towards the swim and then, when there's enough willingness of participation, if you will, then I can start teaching them some strokes. Not all ISR instructors teach strokes, but I have a competitive swim background and so it's been really fun for me to challenge myself to teach strokes at a really young age. But, like you know, with Layla, she's two and she's doing elementary backstroke. She's starting to do regular backstroke, right.

Jamie Berger:

Next thing I would work on is breaststroke and then freestyle arms, and so ISR students it's actually much easier to teach them side breathing as well, because so many kids are so used to like doggy paddling. You know they're holding their head up above the water. They're a little bit more vertical and it's not a very productive swim. They're not getting where they need to go very fast, and so with ISR students, they swim face down in the water. You know, which is something that I think as a community, or you know, we just we need to normalize seeing kids' faces in the water in a safe way. So when they're face down swimming for about four seconds or whatever, and then they turn on their back, we call that a rollback. And so when you, when you eventually teach them freestyle, they're already doing that rotation. You just stop it from going fully Right, so they already have the positioning down.

Rachel Wagner:

It's so much easier. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Jamie Berger:

But the key is the willingness of participation at that. For for strokes, right, you know they have to want to engage in that and they have to want to learn. And then sometimes they get to a point where they get too comfortable with me, or then they're like playing my heartstrings and they're like, but but, miss Jamie, I don't want to do that today. And I'm like ah, okay, well, what do you want to do? Because now we're at the point where we're having fun, yeah.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about a little bit of your competitive background that you had. How long have you been swimming and what was that like?

Jamie Berger:

Yeah. So I started swimming on swim team probably at like five and a half. You know I don't really know how great of a swimmer I was then, but it was. You know I didn't learn through ISR. My parents say that it was like, yeah, we just threw you in and you just figured it out. I don't think it was really that dramatic right. Just like people saying that about ISR, it's much more gentle than that.

Jamie Berger:

So I was a competitive swimmer. I pretty much my whole life I swam all year round, was on varsity at Stevenson freshman year, then kind of got burnt out. You know Stevenson is a very competitive school. I was not very good at academics. So academics on top of you know, five afternoon practices, three morning practices and meets on Saturdays, it was a lot.

Jamie Berger:

And so I stopped swimming freshman year of high school and then picked it back up again junior year of high school for just a season and then stopped again. I didn't love practice. I tried every way to get out of that and but yeah, it's crazy because people knowing my swim journey and how, how good I was at a swimmer or as a swimmer they're like never would have thought that I would have given up a corporate job to put on a wetsuit and be in the water every day, but I'm providing such a skill for kids. That's also. The other thing is a lot of people were really surprised that I ended up working with kids because I wasn't a huge kid person but, I can come up with a few funny things to say every 10 minutes.

Jamie Berger:

right, we can come up with the handshake. We can come up with like the bargaining, and you know, having my own kid it helps kind of teach you how to engage with kids and stuff.

Jason Wagner:

But yeah, I just want to say that you said you weren't the strongest academically yeah. No, you said you weren't the strongest academically yeah, and. But you had this competitive nature and now you run your own business, which is obviously very successful, and that's just funny.

Jamie Berger:

It's crazy, it's really crazy. You know, my husband is a lawyer, so he did you know everything to the, to the top degree, right. And here I am like never really graduated from anything. I'm like, did I really graduate from high school? I don't know. No, I did, but, you know, went to like a few.

Jamie Berger:

I started as a nursing student at Harper and then realized maybe I don't want to work with people that closely and then vet tech stuff. Then to the corporate world. But I think the corporate world really set me up for knowing everything from start to finish. From a business standpoint, I helped with global process improvement and implementation and that kind of stuff, and so I worked a lot with the executive team. So it gave me that creative and critical thinking mindset to be able to run my own business. There's a lot that I really would like to improve within my own current process. I think it's okay right now, but you know it does the job, but it's hard. I'm in the water six to nine hours a day and then on top of that I have to do several hours of admin stuff. But for the families that know me, I'll be like you know that'll ask about scheduling. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm behind a little bit.

Jamie Berger:

You know, I'll get to it. You know, I'll eventually get to it. But yeah, I think you know and it goes back to just trying to win. You know, and I tried to lead with you know. It's again, it's a time commitment, it's a financial commitment, all that kind of stuff. But I try to just teach as many kids as I can and then the finances are secondary. Right, if I can reach as many kids as I can, then there's more people out there that are safer and have a chance.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, yeah. Do you have any like not that I want to go into the bad stories, but do you have any like kind of scary stories that you've kind of come across?

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, yeah, we work with families all the time that have lost kids due to drowning. I worked with a student a few years ago that actually had a drowning incident himself. He was hospitalized in the ICU for a few days. Now he I got text messages this summer.

Jamie Berger:

Now he's on the Barrington swim team and so for a little while like teaching him I was a new instructor when I first started teaching him and so I was a little bit nervous because I was like his association with water could be different. You know, he did have a trigger where he, if he would get water in his mouth, that did trigger some panic, which is valid, and so for years we kind of had to work through that. Like he had the skillset really fast. I was working on strokes with him within that first session and he was only like three and a half and so he picked it up really quick. But it was like when he would take his skills, and then we I like to say when he realizes that his skills are portable so not just my controlled environment of my pool, but taking these skills elsewhere he would get triggered and kind of panic sometimes and go really vertical and it wasn't great. So then I had to meet them like at a public pool Cause I was like I got to see what's going on here. We, we worked through all of that and, yeah, now he's on swim team and loving it.

Jamie Berger:

But yeah, then I have a few other families that have unfortunately lost kids due to drowning, and then now I'm teaching the younger siblings. It's it's really sad. It's really it's really sad, but it's also empowering, right, when you know more, you do more, and so I think that's a hard concept for our culture, because some people are like well, we don't have access to a pool or we don't swim a lot, we don't go to the lake a lot. Well, it can happen in your bathtub, you know less than an inch of water.

Jamie Berger:

It could happen in the toilet. You know something like that, and so, while you may think that ISR might not be the best suit for you, it's safer swimmers sooner. And then at two or three you're learning strokes right, where most two and three-year-olds aren't even putting their face in the water yet, and so you kind of have to weigh the pros and cons and figure out what's best for your family. But I think most drowning families, or families that have been impacted by drowning, are huge advocates of not only ISR but just survival swim. You know there's other, there's other programs that are like ISR. I think ISR is probably one of the most well-known, but they all say now that I know better, I do better.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, how quickly can like a drowning actually happen?

Jamie Berger:

24 seconds wow wow that's so thanks right and think about how many times a day that you don't see your kid for 24 seconds you know a lot, and it's not because we're bad parents, it's just, you know, we may be going to the bathroom, we may be getting the snack that they were just begging us for, or we may be cutting the watermelon a different way because we didn't cut it right the first time, and then they just like run somewhere else and, you know, splash around and then, yeah, so it can take 24 seconds for apnea to set in, which is scary.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, that's very scary. Oh, that's why we put such an emphasis on it, just as our family, right.

Rachel Wagner:

Yeah, I wanted to go back to a little more specifics on the time commitment and financial commitment or investment, if you don't mind going into that. So we did say every day, five days a week, for 10 minutes. But that's typically just for the first session, right? So the first, like seven to eight weeks, and then after that most kids then move into maintenance. Is that a fair assessment?

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, and so it depends on, like the first session, what their end skillset is right. If they're under the two-year-olds, then they're just going to learn the rollback to float and they'll float for several minutes, which is really cool, and then we'll do maintenance, which is just once a week, a few times a year, but when they're closer to two then we'll do kind of a refresher session which is every day again for a few weeks so that we can transition them towards the swim, float, swim. So we're adding the swim in there and changing the sequence around a little bit, but they already know half of the skills. Adding the swim in there and changing the sequence around a little bit, but they already know half of the skills.

Jamie Berger:

And then, once they're swim, float swim then yeah, back to once a week, few times a year? Yeah, just 10 minutes.

Jamie Berger:

At some point, like when they get to an older age. I would love to do more, like maybe three kids versus me found a way to build that into my schedule because, you know, I kind of want to focus on the group of kids that are more impacted by the statistics and when they get to that age they're less impacted but also more likely in school, and not every family wants to come at 6am like you guys do, but I'll come. I come that early. So, yeah, when they're in school age two, it just gets a little bit harder with that. Every ISR instructor is their own independent contractor, and so pricing is determined based on them. So what is pool rental? What is all that kind of stuff? You know admin time. You know I'm not just paying myself for being in the water, but also all of the computer stuff that I have to do scheduling, invoicing, wait lists.

Jamie Berger:

you know just all the questions, that kind of stuff. And you know when I when I've taught over 800 families. Now, at this point it can be a lot. Yeah, yeah, it's a big Tetris game.

Jason Wagner:

Sure, but I love it, but you get. I think if anyone's considering it, it's like the result comes. Do you have any experiences where a result didn't come, and what was it due to?

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, I've had one student that we tried for a few weeks, I think it's. I think it depends on parenting styles, right. He was five and a half hates putting his face in the water. He did not speak English, I did not speak Spanish, so it was kind of hard for us to communicate with each other.

Jamie Berger:

Our program is nonverbal, right, like we can teach kids that's as young as six months, so it doesn't. It's all based on reinforcements and so we don't have to. But at that age, when there's such an emotional factor, it's easier if I can talk them through it a little bit. And so they, after two days of him getting in the water with me, they kind of had him sit and watch other lessons, which is then really hard because he's coming to the pool but not getting in. And then we didn't, we, he just wouldn't get back in. So one out of 800 plus isn't a terrible ratio. I do kind of beat myself up about it as an instructor because you know I haven't had that before, but you know, to no fault of any of us, we, we gave it a good try, but yeah.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, no.

Jamie Berger:

Do you think um, there's an ideal age to start or kind of like a sweet spot to put your kids in age wise, I like to say if you want to start as a floater, usually like eight to 12 months is a good age range they have to be sitting on assisted for 60 seconds to start. So not every six month old is doing that these days. Right, all of those milestones have changed and they didn't change because COVID there was a 20 year study going on prior to COVID that, like then changed those statistics of those milestones, but so not every six month old is sitting on assisted. So I like around eight months to 12 months if you're going to start as a floater. I also like that age group because they may also be transitioning to walking, which then creates a lot of interference in the water, because they realize, oh my gosh, I have feet. So, like we were talking about with the, we're trying to slow down the movement on their back. I can catch that at a young age because they're like, oh my gosh, my feet work on land, they must work for me in the water, but when you're floating on your back not so much, and so there's a lot of interference, a lot of teething going on then, which also can create some interference in the water.

Jamie Berger:

So we work through that right the first like three years of their life. They're teething, and so then they know how to do these skills with that in mind, which also goes back to like the time commitment, you know, over several weeks. We're going to catch them on a bad day, we're going to catch them on a day when they, you know, maybe aren't feeling super great, we're going to catch them on a day where they're teething. Or we're going to catch them on a day when it's their birthday and they're really excited, and then they don't want to, you know, and so we catch them in in all of the things, and so I then get to see what does this look like in a normal setting, on a normal random day, and work through that with them, because sometimes there will be some funky things that we'll see, and then you guys will see that in the pool and you'll have already known. Oh okay, miss Jamie said maybe we shouldn't do that if they're acting this way.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, awesome, anything else you got.

Rachel Wagner:

I did. I'm trying to recall them all. There's so many things that come up as they're talking.

Jason Wagner:

I'm like there was actually something that happened with Scarlett because kind of like, as she came back, so she was really good with you, you got her in a really good, comfortable phase and then we took some time off and then we came back and there was like a big regression, that kind of happened. It was like she forgot everything. I guess you know that's normal for people, you kind of get rusty of it. But I was really kind of surprised of how drastic it was, for sure.

Jamie Berger:

So for Scarlett specifically, a lot of it was driven emotionally. So physically she remembered the skills. There was a little bit of tuning up that needed to be done because, as their body which is why we love maintenance maintenance is like just so fun to see because that's where you see the skills turn to thrills. But as their bodies grow, their body feels very different in the water. So one day they may be like I was really good at that, and then today I'm getting in the water. So one day they may be like I was really good at that and then today I'm getting in the water, my body feels totally different. I'm not so sure. And so when it's emotionally driven there's kind of a ripple effect of them, like there's hesitation again because they're like this is going to be hard, but I can do hard things Right, and so it's when we can keep up with that we stay ahead of those emotional curves.

Jamie Berger:

I think a lot of like Scarlett specifically. She does really well, knowing the concept of why she's doing this Right. When we take the holidays off, she's like I'm not swimming a ton, you know. But then when your pool is back open she's like ah, this is why I go there. So I bet you this next time, when we take a break over the holidays and stuff, you won't see that again, because she's old enough and then she's been through it before and she has the concept of these skills aren't in just just Mitch, miss Jamie's pool, they're everywhere. I have to do this. I have to do it in my backyard pool. I have to do it at midtown.

Jamie Berger:

I have to do this I have to do it in my backyard pool, I have to do it at Midtown, I have to do it everywhere, and so I think that's why I love maintenance. If we can stay ahead of those growth curves and those emotional ripple effects, then it helps their confidence levels this at lessons all the time and it was so helpful and even enlightening for me.

Rachel Wagner:

You're like, well, she's probably gone through quite a bit of a growth spurt too, and I did go back and look and I'm like, wow, over the last 12 months she's gained or she's grown three inches. Three inches and like seven pounds over the last year, like huge growth spurts, right. And when you're like her body probably feels different in the water, right, like her legs are longer, she weighs more, it's a totally different feeling and that's a lot of change in a short period of time. You know we really only took off one session, so she was swimming, I think, up until November, december, and then we braked until April, so it was like four months. But considering, you know, all that had changed, it was significant.

Rachel Wagner:

And then I was going to say too, you were sharing like the confidence thing and kind of like the power struggle as you were describing that. I'm like that is literally Scarlett, like she does not want to do things that she's not good at and it takes her like we were going through this at the playground yesterday. She wants to win and everything. She's super, super competitive, but if she can't she wants to give up and fall away, right. And so we were able to witness that through the lessons that you were doing with her. She just had to gain the confidence, and now she's doing flips off the deck into the pool because she's so confident, right, it's all thrills now.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, it is all thrills.

Jamie Berger:

Sometimes, I have parents come back to me and they're like waiting for that moment when the skills turn to thrills, right.

Rachel Wagner:

And then when they turn to, thrills.

Jamie Berger:

They're like well, we go back. Yeah, it's too much where they had a little bit of caution, because now they have the skills and they have the thrills. They can just launch themselves in the water and be totally fine, and the parents are like but like, maybe I don't want them to launch themselves in the water exactly.

Rachel Wagner:

Yeah, a little too much thrill yeah but you helped me with that too. Where you're like okay, you just have to reinforce, you know, before too many thrills come into the pool or before we're agreeable to put on your pedal jumper, you know cause your friends have it on and you have to show me X number of floats and X number of swim, float, swim. So I know that that skill is still there for this session in the pool.

Jamie Berger:

Yep, so that's the when and then. Right, when you show me that you can do X, y and Z, then you can play around for 20 minutes or two hours or whatever it is. So I look at it as the concept of you have to earn the right to goof off and then, at the end of the day, you also have to show me again, because after goofing off, you have to prove to me that you've still retained your skills, and so if there's a little bit of funkiness happening, okay, well, next time we go to the pool, you're not getting in for the first five minutes or whatever it is. Or if in the beginning you don't want to show me your skills, you're going to have to sit poolside no fingers, no toes, no, nothing for like two minutes. Right, I've had to do that with my daughter like twice, and then never again.

Jamie Berger:

I look at the water, as it is a privilege to be able to be in the water. If you're not respecting the privilege, then you don't get it right. Like, the water is a serious thing. It is the most dangerous thing on the planet for our kids, right, five and under, and so it's the number one reason that they don't make it to kindergarten, which is really sad. It's above car accidents, it's above birth defects, it's above all of that. So you have to respect it, even though you have these skills and I know you have these skills like you have to play by my rules in and around the pool. There's no options.

Rachel Wagner:

You gave me some other tips because I said we've only owned the pool for a year, so there's so much to learn right away and I was wondering if you could share some more of those tips. I'll give an example of when you gave, of when you're wrapping the kids in a towel by the pool. You know I did this all of the time. I actually catch myself still doing it. Sometimes I'm like no, no, no, where you wrap them up and then kind of tuck the towel in so then they don't have to hold on to it and they're all bundled and warm. Well, pool safety wise, that's not a great choice because if they fall in they can't release their arms and their legs. So even if they have the skill, they're not going to be able to float. So do you have maybe speak to that a little more and other tips for pool safety?

Jamie Berger:

Yeah. So you know, there are a lot of kids that will have the other side, the unfortunate drowning side, because they were bundled up in a towel and people just see a towel at the bottom of the pool which is like really awful, right, and so you kind of want to extend their arms out, let them grab the ends of the towel with their hands and then they wrap their arms around themselves Because then, if they were like to take a tumble, they can release themselves on their own. I think number one is always being in the water with a parent, right, I mean, I think you guys get to a certain point with Scarlett where, like, you guys can sit poolside and you trust her and she's fine. But you know, the two-year-olds, the three-year-olds, you're probably going to want to be in the pool with them all the time. We create that routine without really saying it during lessons, because you guys hand them to me, right, at a certain point they walk, walk or run up to me. But we're kind of creating that concept of like you're being invited in by an adult. I think, as the kids get older and they have more of a concept, talking to them about exit points, you know, once they have these survival skills. You want to talk to them about exit points, right, hey, there's a ladder right here. Hey, there's a ledge right here, hey, there's stairs right here. And then kind of, when they're practicing their skills, talking them through that, hey, where do you want to go? Where do you think you should go? When they're in their float, they can listen to you, whether they choose to or not. That's a different discussion, right, but they can definitely listen to you. So those types of things Also.

Jamie Berger:

Water watchers, designating water watchers. Right In the drowning community, we always say if everyone's watching the water, no one's watching the water. A lot of drowning incidents will happen at a party and it's like there were 15 adults right there, but that's because somebody thought somebody else was watching the pool, but nobody was watching the pool, right. And then those layers of protection which go. You know locks which you guys have on your house, you have alarms, you have gates.

Jamie Berger:

Knowing CPR and first aid is also really beneficial as parents, because if something was to happen, there's a lot a huger success rate on the backend If you can perform CPR right, right away and then survival swim on top of that too. But one day I hope that I have enough time to maybe do like a CPR class, like host it at the hotel that I teach out of, but I just haven't had the time. Like I keep saying to people the last like three summers too, I'm like for whoever has a pool in their backyard I'll come and like teach out of your pool for one day. You know, do like a donation lesson or something, but I just I haven't had the time.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, yeah. How did you choose the hotel and the?

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, I've taught out of like aquatic facilities. I taught out of the JCC for a little while too. Honestly, I just really like having the pool to ourselves. We can also change the temperature of the pool a lot more, so I like, cause I'm in it for so long. You know, we keep it about 88 degrees, which is still 10 degrees colder than your normal body temperature, and so hence why sometimes I wear a wetsuit. I'm also allergic to the pool. I'm allergic to the chemicals which is crazy.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, I'm allergic to bromine, didn't have that allergy growing up, still have no problem with chlorine, but the hotel that I teach out of right now is bromine and it has caused some issues, but that's okay. So I really like just when I taught out of aquatic facilities. Sometimes I would be teaching during aerobics and the older ladies in aerobics hated crying kids in the pool so they would come up to me and scream at me saying I was torturing kids and so it just wasn't always a welcoming environment. And then like so me as an instructor, it would rattle me and then it would also like I just feel bad for the parents.

Jamie Berger:

You know, I don't want. I don't want as a parent myself. I don't want anyone to judge the decisions that you're making as a parent. So it is no one's business what you're choosing as a path for your kid. And eventually we all know that those tears stop. And so it was funny because when I was eventually leaving those facilities they'd be like oh, but it was so fun to see the kids actually gain the confidence in their skills. I'm like well, you're kind of the reason why I'm leaving.

Jamie Berger:

But also, you know, I pay rent, and so rent at a hotel is a little bit less expensive than like an aquatic facility.

Jason Wagner:

All good stuff here. How do you deal with that? I guess when you were first starting and all the crying was happening, like, how do you stomach that You're a mother? I mean, rachel always tells me that whenever she hears the kids crying, it impacts her differently than it does me.

Jamie Berger:

You know, and now, now I think it's reversed in my family, because I'm so callous to it, because I hear it all day. And so then, like my kid will be crying and my husband will be like do you hear her? And I'm like no, actually, no, I don't.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, so when I first started out, well, so my daughter, when I was in the corporate world and she started the lessons, she cried the whole first session like screaming, wailing, crying. And so I have that experience as a swim parent sitting poolside and I was like I don't know, I don't know, but like this is cool, I don't really know what's happening yet. But then when I saw her self-rescue and I saw her floating for two minutes by herself at eight and a half months old, I was like that's worth all the tears. I kind of joke with parents now that, like, if they cry throughout their first few sessions or whatever it is, until they decided, like decide to relinquish the control, they just have a built in alarm system. Right, if they make their way to water by themselves, they're probably going to be mad about it. So you're going to hear it, you're going to hear it first before you see them. So it's also kind of like when I was in the vet industry and we dealt with euthanasia and stuff like that all the time you become callous to that as well. So the crying it doesn't really bother me anymore.

Jamie Berger:

I feel that sometimes I can like feel the parent's energy next to the pool, and so that's where I like I'm doing a lot of talking, I'm explaining a lot of things, or if the parent is still just like kind of in their mind of like I don't, I can't listen to you while my kid's screaming and like uncomfortable, so then at that point I'll just, you know, not talk and skill the kid and try and skill the kid really fast. So then the parent sees what they're capable of, and then that's where we all come into the. I can do hard things.

Rachel Wagner:

You know the fascinating thing about the crying cause. I've obviously seen both our kids scream in the pool initially for a long time. But the fascinating thing I thought about it was I really can't think maybe there was one or two lessons, but I don't even know if there was that every time with the crying there was still skill building happening. Like Scarlett I remember crying the most. Layla adjusted a lot more quickly as she was younger, but Scarlett kind of had that power struggle for a really, really long time and, and I think, fear like lack of confidence or whatever, but she was still doing the skills you know, and she was still progressing in the skills each time and then the second she got out she was done.

Rachel Wagner:

And then it was like okay, bye, miss Jamie, thanks, I get a sticker. Awesome. You know like it was. It was really just for that 10 minutes and there was still progression happening. So it was really more of like I felt like eventually it was really more like a complaining that I had to do it and not as much of a fear because at the end you know she was fine with you. You know it's like it was just hard. It was hard to get through.

Jamie Berger:

It's the moment before the hard workout you don't want to do. Yeah, you know how many times have I sat outside the yoga room and been like I'm at the gym and I'm convincing myself in my head that it's okay to just go home, yeah, and how many times I actually did Right? I don't want to admit that. Yeah, why would you want to work out really hard?

Rachel Wagner:

Yeah, I think that was a great way to explain it. When you explained it that way earlier. It's like nobody wants to do things they're not good at, that's totally scarlet, and like it's hard until you know skills and then thrills Like. That was just such a great way to explain it.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually my big takeaway from this whole episode is the skills before thrills and just understanding that that's a concept. And once you know that that's a concept, you get a lot more comfortable with it. And I think, as a parent, we have a very hard time reacting to our kids when they are crying and when they're in a potentially they think dangerous situation, because, like you said, the water is one of the most dangerous things on earth and I think the there's. There's a lot of work that parents need to do internally when they step into this type of thing, but knowing the results are going to come, yeah, and like once you know that, like the results are going to come, like it's like learning how to ride a bike.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, that's not easy, right. Learning how to ride a bike, yeah, that's not easy. We're dealing with the struggles of that right now. I could probably do it and teach it, knowing what I know about. Like teaching kids in reinforcements in an hour, right, but I, my brain sometimes just is exhausted from thinking and talking and stuff like that all day. But it is not easy. It is hard work to learn how to ride a bike.

Jamie Berger:

There's a bunch of things that are happening all at once and it's not very enjoyable for kids right off the bat. Right, there's falling, there's crying for everyone involved and it's similar. But once they then realize that they can do it, they're having a ton of fun. Realize that they can do it, they're having a ton of fun. So it's not just swimming, but it's a lot of things. You know how many kids go to soccer and hate it right away. They're like running. I don't want to run that many times. There's a bunch of kids running at me, there's balls flying, a coach is yelling at me I don't know what's happening Screaming colors I don't even know all these colors. But then once they like go a few times and they practice, they get more comfortable. I think that's with everything, right.

Jamie Berger:

Literally with everything it's with us as adults too. Like in our generation, like we get uncomfortable very easy and we just want so, we want to fix that for our kids. But there, our kids are so much more capable than we ever give them credit, and I think that's also something that you see through. The progress of ISR is that, oh my God, I'm just doing all of these things for my kids, sometimes as us, as parents. It's just easier for us to just do it for them, but they are totally capable.

Rachel Wagner:

They're so much more capable than we give them credit for yeah, yeah, so much, totally capable. There's so much more capable than we give them credit for. Yeah, yeah, so much more capable.

Jason Wagner:

So early. Yeah, yeah, so sorry. How we end up wrapping up these shows is just kind of the biggest takeaway, and we each kind of kind of go down from the conversation. So that was mine, which was the skills before thrills. Rachel, it was your kind of big takeaway from.

Rachel Wagner:

I have two. The last few episodes we've had. I've always had two, because I can't decide. One is a quick one, though the time it takes to drown. I think you said 24 seconds, 23 seconds, that was way shorter than I was even thinking. For some reason. I was thinking it was closer to a minute. So that was a big takeaway. That's quick.

Rachel Wagner:

And then the other one was the analogy we're just kind of talking about. It is you don't learn to walk or crawl or stand up. You know once a week. You know for 30 minutes or whatever. And I I've talked with you about this. I the whole like concept and structure of how ISR is set up kind of opened my eyes to how to get your kids to learn something and like this private lesson, short period of time, but repetitively, five days a week. You know for seven or eight weeks or whatever. They learn so much more in that type of setup and then you can move to like a weekly maintenance lesson. It's opened my eyes to other activities that our kids are in and thinking, okay, does it make more sense to make an investment on the front end? So I've talked about this with gymnastics, because I was so frustrated with gymnastics for like a year.

Rachel Wagner:

Yes, I'm just like there's so many kids in the class and they do like an obstacle course type thing and it's great, she's exploring, she's learning, she's building you know strength for sure by walking around those mats.

Rachel Wagner:

But I'm like she'll get to a section where she's supposed to do a somersault, for example, and she doesn't know what to do. She just kind of flops on the mat and then keeps going because there's nobody there to show her. And I just had these moments, like if she just did a few lessons where they showed her one-on-one what to do at each station, she then would get so much more out of the class and more independently because she would know what to do. But when she doesn't know what to do and no one's there to teach her, you know it's just kind of a waste. And so we have talked about this so much of like does it make more sense to do an investment on the front end for other things, for a specific coach, and then move more into, like, the group setting, because then their confidence is so much higher, they're going to get so much more out of it and It'll be more thrills than you know scare and lack of confidence.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, I mean when you said that analogy.

Rachel Wagner:

You don't learn to walk or crawl. You know in a day You're right.

Jamie Berger:

You don't learn anything that way, we've definitely talked about the gymnastics.

Rachel Wagner:

Yes.

Jamie Berger:

Because I've said it with dance too. I'm like if they would just do this twice a week for 30 minutes instead of once a week for an hour.

Jamie Berger:

This was like back when she was in like tap and ballet, I'm like, and then if you, if you just ask, if you teach them a two count for a whole 30 minutes and then the next time you do the two count and then the four count, like you're gonna see so much more progress than trying to teach them an eight count once a week for an hour, like they're not listening after 10 minutes, right, or you know, probably in those settings maybe more like 20 minutes, like they're not listening after 10 minutes, Right, or you know probably in those settings, maybe more like 20 minutes or like not listening anymore.

Jamie Berger:

But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, I mean. I mean, individualized instruction is always the best way to go. It's always the financial commitment, though, and is it worth it? Right?

Rachel Wagner:

That's that's what everybody just kind of their heads. In this case, when you're talking about swimming safety, it's like a thousand percent worth it. Oh, this is the best investment we've made in our kids. Yeah, yeah, hands down, I would do it over again. Oh yeah, over again, oh yeah recommend it to anybody.

Jason Wagner:

So awesome, miss jamie. What was your big takeaway from this conversation?

Jamie Berger:

that I'm like just a great person in your kids' eyes.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, I love hearing that feedback. It really makes me so emotional because you know, I it is. It is hard. You kind of have to be a little bit crazy to do what we do every day and deal with crying kids every day and nervous parents and all that stuff. And that's just in the water, right, and then all the admin stuff that comes with it. And that's just in the water, right, and then all the admin stuff that comes with it. But knowing that I'm making a difference in people's lives and a topic at the dinner table, it just it warms my heart and makes it all worth it.

Jason Wagner:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're definitely a big topic at our dinner tables.

Rachel Wagner:

Yeah, seriously, every day. I can talk about you every day. I think Scarlett made a picture this morning asking me how to spell your name. I love it.

Jason Wagner:

It's funny, like whenever we pick out the outfit for the day, they're like oh, are we going swimming with Miss Jamie?

Rachel Wagner:

I'm like no, I'm putting on a t-shirt Every single day, every single day.

Jamie Berger:

Those 6 am time slots Right, yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, that's the reinforcement there.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, it's so funny. Well, thank you so much. I guess if somebody wanted to get a hold of you to kind of talk further or sign up for maybe your schedule, if they can squeeze in, what's the best way to get in touch with you?

Jamie Berger:

The best way is to start off by my website, so that would be safeswimisrcom, and then you can also email me, which is jamie J-A-M-I-E, dot Berger, b-e-r-g-e-r at infantswimcom, and either of those work really well. I do have some openings for August and for October, and then I'm starting to plan for 2025.

Jason Wagner:

People are already signing up for January and April next year.

Jamie Berger:

Yeah, actually, you said something offline earlier where you said that doing the lessons in the fall and winter is actually preparing you for next swim season, right, yes, Teaching in the fall and winter is my favorite time to teach new students because we have time in the state of Illinois, right, we have time before you're really in a pool again, so we have the time to get from skills to thrills, right, you do that initial session, they take a little break, process everything that they've learned, come back for some maintenance and you're ready to go.

Jamie Berger:

I don't teach new students in the summer anymore because my philosophy is is that I want you to be ready for summer before summer. These are really hard skills to learn and so if I'm teaching them for 10 minutes a day but then they're going to a pool for two hours, they're unlearning a lot of things. So it just takes a lot longer and again just creates more frustration for the kids. So that's why I you know, I just do maintenance, really, in the summer. I teach new babies of families that I already know in the summer, but outside of that then I'll just do new students all throughout the rest of the year.

Rachel Wagner:

I like it. Yeah, that makes sense.

Jason Wagner:

Yeah, that makes sense, all right. Well, thank you. I guess we'll wrap up here and thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Jamie Berger:

It was great.

Jason Wagner:

You were fantastic, thank you. Everything you said, like there's so many takeaways here. So if you found any value in the show, we would really appreciate it, and I'm sure Miss Jamie would really appreciate it too If you did share it so many nuggets in this one. So thanks again for listening and we will catch you on the next one.