Triggers & Spiritual Medicine
Triggers & Spiritual Medicine
Because You’re a Man, This Is Your Moment: Actionable Steps You Can Take Today
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In this episode of Triggers and Spiritual Medicine, host Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney and guest Ukumbwa Sauti come together for a grounded and honest conversation about rape culture, accountability, and the role men can play in creating real change.
This episode invites listeners into a deeper understanding of how harm shows up in everyday life not just in extreme cases, but in language, silence, dismissal, and the normalization of harm toward women and girls.
Rather than staying at the level of awareness alone, Laura and Ukumbwa focus on what comes next: ACTION. Together they explore practical, real-world steps men, parents, and women can take today such as believing survivors, interrupting harmful behavior in the moment, supporting organizations that serve survivors, engaging with policy and legislation, and actively unlearning patterns rooted in patriarchy.
The conversation also highlights the importance of raising the next generation differently.
That means teaching consent EARLY, modeling emotional responsibility, and challenging harmful ideas about masculinity in homes, schools, and communities.
At its core, this episode is a call to responsibility without shame, and action without delay.
If this conversation resonates with you, please like, follow, share, and subscribe so others can hear it too.
You can find this podcast on most streaming platforms and YouTube, or listen directly at:
https://triggersandspiritualmedicine.buzzsprout.com/
Because change doesn’t start later, it starts with what you choose to do TODAY.
ABOUT TRIGGERS & SPIRITUAL MEDICINE PODCAST:
Real talk. Let's address the elephant in the room to the growing "sickness" in our society, address root issues and provide sustainable solutions.
We hope by addressing the intersectionality and connect the dots like a web of many of society’s challenges, we can help others understand the trauma infection that impacts all areas of life – addiction, domestic violence, racism, homelessness, sexual abuse, chronic health issues, cancer, environmental issues, climate change and more.
In this NEW collaborative program, we hope by highlighting these infected areas and what they share in common, a new perspective of solutions, healing, and resolutions can be birthed.
Each episode addresses a certain trigger while offering the spiritual medicine with at least 3 tips or actionable steps our listeners can take and implement.
Please consider becoming a Patreon supporter to support our social justice initiatives https://www.patreon.com/HealingWithSpirit
WEBVTT
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hello, hello.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Oops.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: And good morning.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Good morning.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: How are you?
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I'm here.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: I hear you.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I am here.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: At least I… at least I whipped up an outline, and some thoughts, and things like that, and…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Cool.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Gotcha.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, um… yeah, that's where my brain goes. My brain functions better in the morning on this stuff, but I figure we would talk about our history and how many times we've talked about this, basically, you know, and…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Oh yeah, okay.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, true. Oh my goodness, yeah, this… we go way back, actually, kind of.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know?
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: addressing this, you know? And how, since we've been addressing it, it's gotten worse, and combining our experiences there. So, I don't want to go too much into, like.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Oh my goodness.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Yeah.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: rehashing what everything's going on, but we have to kind of tie it in, I think.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, because what I really was thinking of focusing on is, um, some of the notes I wrote was kind of, like, tying in what people were responding to, like, action steps.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: that men can take. And then I was also thinking action steps also for parents and women, like, on how to, for yourselves, but also for your children, your boys.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: who are exposed to this culture right now, especially your teenage boys. You know, when the majority of sexual assaults.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Are gonna happen before the age of 25.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, and a lot of the perpetrators are under the age of 25.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm. Right.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, so, um… so I don't know, that's kind of what I was thinking, just your thoughts.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, that sounds great, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, I think, um, we're…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Whew, you know, I think the nature of men's responses to things, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Literally gonna let my hair down here, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, kind of forces the context to just be so responsive to men's.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Dismissiveness and whataboutism…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: that we often don't get to action steps. You know, we, um, often…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: And then, you know, a lot of times people ask, I know a lot of times people ask, and they're not actually interested in the outcome.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, they're not interested in the, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: in that information, you know, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: And I wanted to say it was so, um, I appreciated on my post.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: When that guy had said, oh, what can we do, or whatever, and you just went, boom! 7 things.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: and… and I was…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: trying to do something different with him, but you just went, you know, like that, and I was like, well, there it is.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Well, there was a woman there, too, that I think I challenged, and I think her name is Bea, something like that, Bea, depending on how she pronounces it, you know?
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, possibly.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, um, I know people that spell it that way have different pronunciations, so…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yep, for sure.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, so…
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And at the end, like, she really got defensive with what I had to say.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And so I said, just so you know, like, yes, the minute you go.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I agree with you, but…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You now… you now centered something else, and what I'm asking you to do is sit with that, and she got really pissed at me.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm… yeah. I hear that.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know? So, you know, so I think that's the conversation that we need to have, is, like, those little intertwinings.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And when you are… like, I'm doing a whole thing on being triggered and the difference between triggers and harm.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, mhm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: is I think people have a misconception that every trigger is a harm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, and so… and I think it's overused, and…
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, or it's, I'm traumatized because you said that. No, deal with yourself. Take responsibility for how you're showing up.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Mm-hmm.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And, um, so… yeah, so I was thinking, and then at the end, I was thinking, you know.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: ending it with, like, there's a process that I work with my clients on.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But I have a… I can probably link to another episode if I can find it, that really addresses, like, if you don't know what actions that we mentioned to you today, if you don't know where to start.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, this is a process that I've helped clients with, you know, stop, pause, breathe.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: When you do that, you create the space, and then you can use discernment as a key to know which action to take.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So the fourth step is action. And if you need help with the processing, you've got two people here who've got a lot of experience that can help guide you through the process.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, to book a session with us, and blah blah blah blah.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yep. Mm-hmm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, yeah. Does that sound like a plan?
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yep. Yeah, that sounds fine. I'm hearing a little, um, echo of myself in the system, I'm not sure exactly why.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, I don't know if I need…
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I'm not getting it on my end, just so you know.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Okay, well, that's good. That's great. That's great.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, I've been having… I'm not getting, like… it's funny, like, when I hear myself talk this way, it sounds clear.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But when I play it back, I think I have to change out either my microphone, because all the microphones I'm having has, like, a…
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, kind of like I'm in a big room, you know, it's not… it's not, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Okay.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, when I'm listening to myself talk right now, it sounds fine. When I play it back, I'm like, that sounds very tingy.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I haven't been able to figure that out yet, but I'm saying, it, it's not about how well it sounds, it's about what we're talking about, so…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, the content. Yeah. Yeah, you know, having flat walls behind you and around you, you know, makes that happen.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, the reverberance, and I just have a lot of crap in here. And, you know…
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Well, so do I? So if you see where…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: So, okay, right. So, yeah, it's easier to… that breaks it up a little bit more. Yeah, it'd be worse for both of us.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know?
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But your sound sounds fine, you know, and I even have this nice soft thing behind me here, you know?
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Okay.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, right.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Alright, and I even brought the mug, you know, your son is better than you, and the t-shirt, so…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Nice. I just have my, um, my sea turtle.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We can do our merch, do our merch, like, plug. Alright, so you ready?
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Take a deep breath, I'm going to hit record.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: I think I am.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: There we go.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hi, welcome! This is Laura from Healing with Spirit, your next episode of Triggers and Spiritual Medicine.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We're going to be talking some pretty heavy things, so you might want to make sure you're sitting down.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Uh, not driving, all these things, but our hope today, really.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: is giving folks action steps, and if you're not… if you're new to this podcast, this podcast is really about.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Addressing the triggers, the things that make us sick, the really facing the hard things, knowing how to dig deep to the roots, whether it's through racism, cancer, all these, all these things, systemic oppression.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Domestic abuse, you know, environmental things, all these things that make us sick, and then what's the spiritual medicine?
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: At the end of the day. So, I am so excited to have my friend, Kumbwa Sauti back again. I think this is the third or fourth time he has been on this podcast.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We have been talking about these types of.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Issues for quite some time, um, addressing…
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, issues around racism and patriarchy and men's work and accountability.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because again, this podcast is about what happens when harm is real, and then what do we do about it? We cannot heal.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: if we don't face the hard truths and the root issues. We just put band-aids after band-aids after band-aids. And in a way, this is why we are where we are.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: globally, because we have put band-aids on things, and now finally those band-aids aren't working anymore, and now we've got.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: A pandemic of cancerous issues that, um, are really infecting our society.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, you know, my work for those who aren't familiar is I'm a multi-generational healer and intuitive. Um, I have been addressing trauma and domestic violence for over 20 years as part of my work, not as my primary work, but I'm also an author, podcast host, obviously, and um, so we're going to be bringing in my expertise and training.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: and work with Ukumbwa's work around, again, racism, patriarchy, men's work, accountability.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, and the fact that we're still having this conversation, Ukumbwa, is like… and that things are actually escalating. Remember, like, the numbers used to be 1 in 4 women were, you know, impacted by domestic violence or abuse?
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Exactly.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And now it's 1 in 3, like, and those numbers have escalated dramatically just in the last 10 years. And I question how much of this is because.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: of influencers, like the Andrew Tates and, you know, our lovely person sitting at the top seat of the office type of thing. Um, you know, and all those people who.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Who we elect into positions of power, ignoring accounts of.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: rape, sexual assault, um, child sexual abuse, all these things that we go, yeah, but, yeah, but, what I keep hearing is, like, the yeah but, yeah, but.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, for those who are listening, we're not going to rehash, like, what's wrong, because I think there are so many people that are addressing what's wrong.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: What I think we're going to be trying to highlight is not only what's wrong, but how rape culture has been normalized, how harm has been minimized, how accountability is basically non-existent, and then what actions both men, women.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: parents can do now, and then what process that I use with my clients to.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: discern which actions are appropriate for you today, and welcome, Ukumbwa. You know, um…
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I know in your work, for instance, please, like, introduce yourself, but I'm just curious, because, like, this is, like, I just want to get this out, like, how do you distinguish between people being triggered.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And what is actually a response to what is ongoing.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: systemic harm.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Let's just start there.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, well, and thank you again for having me with you, and giving me an opportunity to talk about things that are important to me, I know are important to you.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, you know, and precisely because we care about people. And, um, you know, we want to see healing and liberation happening in a very challenging world, so…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, yeah, just want to say thank you for that. Um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: And, you know, yeah, you had just mentioned about…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, you know, triggering and real harm and things like that, and what it immediately raises to me.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Is, in the context of what we're talking about, in context of rape culture and men's violence against women in the queer community.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, you know, we have a lot of men responding, you know, they're not using the term.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Triggering, but they're actually responding in fragile ways.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: To information to the voices of women and queer folk, um, about… about the experiences they're having with men.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: And I think one of the things that gets, um, distorted within, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, the power of patriarchy, the power of systematized misogyny and misogenoir. Thank you, Dr. Molia Bailey, for that term and the writing on that subject.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Around African women, um, and, uh, African and Black women, but, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: That men feel set upon because women are telling the truth.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, so we respond in fragile and reactionary ways, um…
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Ukumbwa Sauti: And I'm glad we're not saying that we're triggered by this, and what we are is we're very reactionary.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, to this, but there is a difference between that, how men feel and, you know, I really hate it that we have… are having this conversation about we're caught up in our shame and blame.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hmm.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, when women on the other side of this power differential are bleeding out, are absolutely bleeding out, and have been doing so for a long time, and we're getting caught up in how we feel about what somebody said.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, which to me is a tremendous difference than being targeted by a global system of patriarchy.
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Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hmm.
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Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, that is just brutal and, and 24-7, you know, I mean, and, you know, I was talking to a woman friend yesterday, and, and the term 24-7 came out that this.
00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: That these attacks on women, again, and queer folk are 24-7. It's, you know, kind of what a lot of people wake up to, it's what we go to sleep with, it's… and…
00:15:57.000 --> 00:16:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And literally go to sleep with the harm because it's in our homes, you know?
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, we bring that harm.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, right? I mean, people forget that the most dangerous place for a woman to be.
00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Is in her own home.
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: 95% of domestic violence related homicide.
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: and familicite is committed by a man. As we have seen in recent stories and highlights of the travesties.
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:32.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It is 95% men, but when a woman does it.
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:37.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's like, that hits the headlines, like, all over the place, and it's so funny, like.
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: it's like we want to trash the mother. Trash the mother because she's behaving in a certain way, but the man, you know, oh, he's got mental illness, oh, he's got this, oh, he's got that. Well, he coaches Timmy's.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Which is a dodge.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:17:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Timmy's baseball team, and, you know, he donates so much money to this cause, and, you know, he was the pastor of that church. By the way, like.
00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, we talk about religion, like, the two largest areas I know that traffic children legally, or abuse children and get away with it more times than not, are pastors and priests and the family court system. Like, let's just…
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm.
00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Call the kettle black for what it is.
00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah.
00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:25.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And we cannot… I'm a firm believer, we cannot fully heal.
00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: from our wounds, if we are not addressing root issues and root systems of harm, which is what is being elevated now, right? Like that.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: whole Telegram thing that just came out, right, with the 62 million, you know, motherless, right? And when we really look at that, it's something I've been seeing other people write about, something I've been hearing.
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, and really sitting with motherless… well, it's true. I mean, like, family courts are giving, for instance, custody to documented abusers, rapists, and pedophiles at a rate of up to 80%.
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: In family courts, like… and they are… any mother that challenges that is being met with severe harm, incarceration, um, being severed completely 100% from their children, being threatened to have their nursing babies.
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: remove from them. Um, this is the culture, and then when we add that to our great mother, how we're raping our earth, our trees, our land, without sustainability, we wonder.
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:34.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: What has gone wrong, right? Because we have forgotten.
00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The importance that all of us are alive here today because of the mother.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And if we are focused on being motherless.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: then we are perpetuating harm, right? So I want to ask you, you know.
00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:18:51.000 --> 00:19:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Speaking of this, and patriarchy, I know, is really, like, you know, your need and experience, too, is a learned behavior, and the role of race and power, and…
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, the cultural reinforcement of this harm, right? So a lot of people think of rape culture as, like, extreme cases.
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But I want to ask you, like, how does it actually show up in everyday behavior, language.
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And what gets normalized, or what gets ignored?
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Well, part of it, um, as I have seen it, and as I've learned about it, is…
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Is a profound dehumanization of women and girls.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And to not only make the assumption that women and girls have less value.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: and of course, with women of color, BIPOC women, um, that takes on a more heinous level, you know, because we know that.
00:19:47.000 --> 00:20:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Black girls are adultified, you know, much more, you know, said that they're fast, and they want these kinds of things they led people on, um, which is also generalized for some girls of certain ages.
00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, but… but this dehumanization and this stripping of the humanity of women and girls, which allows us to objectify and harm.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: um, you know, that was written into the… it's still written into the, you know, United States Constitution about.
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: about African and Black people, you know, that were 3 fifths human, you know, that kind of thing.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So, you know, this is a systemic kind of messaging that's happening. So that dehumanization, you know, we talk about, you know, rape jokes.
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, which are never jokes, you know, they're never funny, they're never good, they're never right.
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, but that, you know, we have this talk about that, and we allow it. You know, we have this concept of locker room talk, how we talk about.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: About women, um, and how we, you know, talk about, you know, things like body count.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, like, how many sexual partners does a woman have, and if it's too high, then they have lesser value, or something like that, when for men, you know, a high body count…
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, content is very masculine and manly and valued very highly by men.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You're a stud. You're a stud.
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, right? You know, so there's a definite double standard, um, going on there. Um, and so, you know, things like that, you know, not listening to the voices of women and girls.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Mm-hmm.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, you know, children and adults, um, and, uh, diminishing those ideas.
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Those voices, which happens all the time, which is happening now because of the, you know, the motherless.
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: um, the news and talk about motherless, you know, so many men are saying, well, it can't be, you know, it's not all men, you know, it can't be that bad, you know, I don't see anything like that. I don't hear, you know, a situation of women having this kind of harm.
00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, things like that, so, you know, diminishing and devaluing the voices that are very direct, that are having the experience that women are having of men.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And men reactively, not with any principle of compassion or love.
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Or, or, um, or care, or, you know, any of that good stuff, you know, that we hopefully want throughout the…
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Curiosity.
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, throughout the world, um, you know, are just pushing back at these voices, and we do it all the time.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, so, you know, we really have to look at language, we really have to look at relationships, we have to, you know, start, you know, we want to, you know, so many men are saying, well, 62 million doesn't mean this, it doesn't mean that. Oh, it's actually the visits on that day, which is…
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Still horrendous!
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:56.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And let's just go back, like, that means 80… I think it's, like, 85 million views in March, so let's just stop the numbers. The numbers aren't getting better, they're getting worse. And it brings me to a thing of, like, you know, when I was trying to get the nonprofit going, you know, Maso, which is.
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: horrendous.
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Right.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Massachusetts Survivors Outreach, which was for survivors of abuse and healing programs.
00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, and I think this was, like, I'm trying to think of the year, it must have been, like, 2010 or something like that, right around there.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But, um, I remember one of my interns had come to me addressing a situation where they were.
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, sexually assaulted in college, but they were drugged.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And so I had to… I'm not going to go too much into that, just because of… just the sensitivity of it, except for the fact that one statement stood out.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The reason why they did not go to the police department.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: was because how many people on the campus were saying, oh, well, it couldn't have meant anything. Well, at least I don't remember, so then it wasn't harm.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:56.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I think that's part of rape culture, and that you can just take somebody… people don't realize when you have sexual intercourse with somebody.
00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: there's an energy exchange that the cellular body doesn't forget. Just because the mind may not remember, because you were drugged.
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The body does remember.
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And there's an energy component to it of force, control.
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: um, you know, property, you know, all these things. And the body does remember.
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And so, I found it quite disturbing that the rolling conversation on the college campus.
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: was about…
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: How women were discouraged from reporting sexual assault because they didn't remember.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because they were drugged, which then goes into why men drug their victims, or why pedophiles choose children under the age of 3.
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because they have a higher rate of not remembering to be able to enforce the laws. And this is a huge problem that men can only really fix.
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. Yeah.
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? So, there is this disparity and justice, the protection of power. I mean, look, we knowingly.
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: 40… 30-something percent, 33% of 34% of the American population.
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Knowingly voted for, and that includes women and men.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:25.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I think 40% of women voted for a convicted.
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: rapist, right? A rapist with.
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Absolutely.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:37.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: With credible allegations stemming back 20, 30 years of.
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: sexual inappropriate behavior with children to the highest office, and we did that knowing this information and did not care. So the protection of power, the cultural messaging that basically normalizes this, and.
00:25:53.000 --> 00:26:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Around, you know, for instance, whose safety matters, right? So when people seek a lack of accountability.
00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Right.
00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Whether in everyday situations, right, or at the highest levels, like I just mentioned.
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: What does that teach society about whose safety matters and whose doesn't?
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Well, you know, one of the things that came up as you were speaking, you know, is that, you know, the Founding Fathers were traffickers.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, were, you know, involved and leading a system of human trafficking and chattel enslavement, which included systemic rape.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, which did not avoid the rape of white women also.
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: that was happening too, you know? But the deepest part of that was the torture and harm that was coming to African and Black women during that situation. And again, we often, you know, push that to the side, and we don't want to think about that as trafficking. We don't want to think about, you know, we don't want to place, you know, Christianity and its…
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, and it's privilege that it has in a place that was defined by the doctrine of discovery, you know, defined by the papal bulls that dehumanized.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Whole swathes of humanity across the globe, so that.
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:22.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right. Can we just even talk about the Magdalene Laundries that didn't end until 1994 that legally trafficked babies under the guise of adoption in Ireland? Like…
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, absolutely.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. Right.
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: That practice started in the 1600s and didn't end until 1994. Like…
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right?
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, and, you know, that makes me think of the, you know, so-called residential schools or concentration camps that the indigenous people on, you know, Turtle Island, North America have been talking about and trying to get people to understand, and also, you know, that our great hero, Criminal Columbus.
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, instituted rape as a weapon of war, you know, and this is the guy people still want to have.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:57.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: a, you know, national holiday about. Um, so, you know, this, this cult.
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: of, you know, patriarchy has… and empowering men and others who support those systems has been around since the country has been around and before, you know, at least 500 years or more, and yeah, let's talk about.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, the burning times in Europe and what the Inquisition and, and, and, you know, was all about, and, and even the German book, the Malius Maleficarum.
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: That, that, uh, that codified, uh, torture, you know, at the time that the Roman Catholic Church adopted as its text.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, for how to bring people into line, and how to, you know.
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: In an imperialistic fashion, spread this kind of, of, you know, cancerous, you know, Wedeko disease.
00:28:44.000 --> 00:29:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, around the globe. So, you know, that we have that now should not be surprising, in a way. It's horrendous that it happened, you know, that, you know, that we have this history, this recent history of this man, you know, being put into this powerful place.
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But it's not new that that happens. And, you know, that's one of the steps, I think, that's so important around getting, you know, men on board in particular. Women have.
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: been on board. Y'all had to be on board, or else… yeah, and you know, your lives have been at stake, and your livelihoods, at the very least, have been at stake.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We're tired. We're exhausted.
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But your actual lives have been at stake for thousands of years, let's just say that, you know, through patriarchy in different parts of the world, but, um…
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And very generally now, you know, that a lot of these dynamics are really globalized.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, um, and so, um, just knowing that this happens.
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It is fascinating to see how it's all hitting globally right now, you know?
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah.
00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: All these factions, right?
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And the resistance even within the so-called good men, right? The fear, the conditioning, and the social consequences, too, you know?
00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I will say, with all of this, I have seen a lot of men tackle these issues.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But I'm finding it also interesting, the ones that are tackling the issues of violence against women.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Are those that were sons witnessing their mothers.
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: either be murdered or abused by their fathers. They're the men that I've seen rise to the occasion.
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:31.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But I haven't really seen a lot of other men address it, or if they have, they're silencing those men, or they're bullying those men, right? So, in your work with men.
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:42.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So I'm curious on this. What do you feel are some of the biggest barriers that stop men from stepping into accountability, and what actually helps them move through that?
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Well, the one thing that I always try to bring up, um, whenever I talk about these things is power.
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:54.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, one of the things that's happening, um, is that men know.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, consciously and unconsciously, that we have a place of power within this society.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And so many of us don't want that challenged. We just don't want that challenge. We have a level of control.
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, and that… and that's not applied, you know, evenly or monolithically, you know, amongst men everywhere, you know, and yes, particularly Black men, I think we have a… what I call a.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Provisional or conditional level of patriarchy, you know, um, which, you know, gets destroyed within racism.
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But, you know, our negative connection to that is very real in our own communities and beyond, um, and we have to own up to that.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But, um, but we also have to understand the generalized power that men.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: accept as part of their masculinity and manhood, um, in the world, and that we… that's one of the reasons we don't challenge it. I have to say that first, because some of the other things are like.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: well, we're not sure, we don't know. Um, you know, we're caught in the shame and blame cycle, and things like that. Oh, you're blaming all men when I didn't do anything, I didn't kill a woman, I didn't, you know, I didn't sexually assault them, you know, that kind of thing, but it's like, well, you are part of a system.
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: That does, that says that that's okay.
00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Or… and don't sit there and tell me, because the stats are there, right? But you didn't hear some crude joke about somebody's spouse, or somebody's sister, or somebody's mother.
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, exactly.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:23.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Or some girl walking down the street, and, you know, um, or that you were… you crossed a boundary with a woman.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:45.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, and maybe you… maybe you're older now, and you regret that, because you see now. Like, these are things that you can talk about. I've seen some men talk about it with some backlash, but I think there needs to be some grace if you have harmed, and you recognize, and you're learning.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because of the conditioning of what you were taught, that's different, and that needs to be shared.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:33:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, exactly, and there, and men need to create those spaces. You know, one of the things that I've seen in over… and I'll just say, generally, about 10 years.
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Of looking at it much more closely, you know, when I actually defined, you know, what I call men's work.
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And have started naming it and hashtagging it and things like that. Um, what I've noticed is that when women talk about their experience of.
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: of harm. You know, men jump in and always say, well, what about men? You know, sometimes women harm, even though… and that's true. I've had that happen to me. And, um…
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, though it's more likely a man that's gonna harm a man than a woman that's gonna harm a man.
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:32.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's, like, 95%.
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, exactly.
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:42.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, 95% of the homicides of women are by men. So, you know, 1 in 3 women.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Uh, it's just the numbers are higher. It doesn't mean a woman doesn't do it. It's just that a woman.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. Right.
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: A man doesn't walk out the door.
00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: and wonder if a man… if a woman… I mean, a man doesn't walk out the door and wonder if a woman's gonna accost her, make some sort of sex calls, wonder if she's gonna be… if she has to have eyes behind the back of her head, does she have her mace or her…
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: blowhorn or whatever, because some dude is following her, right? So, like, that… a man doesn't have to… have to deal with that every day, or a man doesn't have to worry about losing his job, because you tell a man… you tell your boss to keep your hands off of you.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And, you know, so… and it needs to be separate. So the minute you… that happened to me, my first job out of college, I was fired because I just went to my manager and said, can you tell so-and-so in this department to keep his hands off of me? Because he would literally grab me every day, and…
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You're out of it. Right.
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: like, tell me all his sexual fantasies. The guy had 3 small children at the age of 7, and, like, you know, and I just said, can you please just tell him to keep his hands off? Like, I just want to be able to do my work, and…
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Oh my goodness, yeah.
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I just left with that, figured that that was it. I came in the next day, I was fired.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. And that happens so often.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, men don't have to experience that.
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, not for those reasons, yeah, definitely not for those reasons.
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Not at the same level, so it's different. So, when you say, yeah, but, like, I love these, like, yeah, buts, right? Yeah, but, or men too, like, I want to go.
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:04.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah. Oh, clearly not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:18.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The body bags don't add up, okay? The body bags don't add up.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Exactly.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay? So…
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Before we go down those rabbit holes, I'm just curious here, because I really want to focus on action steps too, you know? Because we can go into all the things, right?
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Well, I…
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. And if I may jump in just for a second, I just wanted to finish my thought about men.
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:33.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, and for those…
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yes.
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, because men have pushed back and said, what about ism, and but, you know, men get harmed. You know, what… the thought I just wanted to finish was that the challenge for men is to create our spaces for ourselves for our own healing.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
00:35:50.000 --> 00:36:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: To create spaces for ourselves to face these dynamics, to face these realities of what we've been involved in, what we've been complicit with, with other men.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So that we can do that down-and-dirty work together, so that we can get beyond it, so that we can heal ourselves from our complicity within a system of harm, you know, for women and others, and that includes other men.
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, so that we can get beyond that and heal and actually step into fully a system of… a process of liberation, equally with… with those around us, with women and queer folk and… and, and, you know, other men who are, um…
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, marginalized by patriarchy also, you know, which we all take a hit with it, but we're still in power, that's the thing. So yes, when we use our power.
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:34.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: To create those spaces of healing, um, that's where, you know, the rubber hits the road. And, and we have to be…
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:45.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Absolutely.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Conscious of what we have done collectively as men, globally as men, locally as men, and even in our families as men.
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because this is how we teach the younger generation, right?
00:36:53.000 --> 00:37:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And we need to find places, absolutely. And they have to see us doing that. You know, our sons should see dad and uncles having a conversation in another room and say, yeah, they're cleaning up their crap.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yes, they have to model it.
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, um, that has to happen. They have to say, you know, we have to be able to tell our son, hey, son, you know, I'm going to my men's group meeting, I'm going to my anti-patriarchy meeting, and we'll see you later, love you, you know, do your homework, and we'll see you in a little bit.
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, that needs to be normalized. Yeah.
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And it also doesn't negate that there are, clearly based off, I go by voting election, there are 40% of women.
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: that have to also unpack their inner misogyny and their inner patriarchy, too. So, those women also have to look at themselves and how they're supporting these systems that are harming their own… like, they're shooting ourselves in the foot.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Right.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We're harming our future generations, 7 to 10… all… any action we do today lasts 7 to 10 generations to come. We're impacting those generations to come.
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:57.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I… it brings me to a thought before we go into the next segment, is…
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, please.
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I had this one client that changed me several years ago, um, that passed away from dementia.
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:14.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And he taught me a lot around the issues of men's work, and I think he was really ahead of his time. He was in his 80s.
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And back in the 70s, he just started getting together where one person was having marital troubles or something like that, and…
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: They would just meet over coffee, and just chat and support each other. It wasn't like a session, it was a support, right?
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Simple.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Simple. Yeah.
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, over, like, I think the years, like, when I went to the funeral, to make a long story short, like.
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: There were 10, 15 men that for 30, 40 years.
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Who had been consistently showing up.
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And the things that they said about the importance of this men's group that they formed.
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Was life changing.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes.
00:38:55.000 --> 00:39:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And it is… it is not seen in today, and how needed it is that men need their own groups.
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:06.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: To allow themselves to feel.
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, that hugging is not feminine, right? Like, all these things that men are conditioned to think, you know, you're gonna cry, you're a sissy, right? Like, I remember growing up hearing that too, right?
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:37.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like… like, those are all not normal, right? The reason why men are bottled up with anger and rage is because they don't know how to tap into the other emotions, right? So the… what I would like to tap into, for those who are listening, we're not ending the conversation with just awareness, because we want to really move into.
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, right.
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Actionable steps. We're going to talk about actionable steps first with men.
00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:39:43.000 --> 00:40:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, so of men that are listening, you know, there are some tangible ways to interrupt that rape culture starting today, and we're gonna go over that. And then we're also gonna go over, like, if you are a parent, or if you are a woman, and what are… what actionable steps can you take today to help.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: make these changes. Like, these are things you can start today, not tomorrow, right? And then I'm going to take us through that process. We're going to take through that process of how to discern which actionable step is right for you based on where you are in your life, in your journey, in circumstances.
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? So, let's engage that right now with men, you know? So…
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: I don't… I know.
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: what are some steps that you see? I know, like, the other day we were talking that you posted something on social media, and there was a man that commented, for instance, like, I don't know what, you know, nothing's working, or whatever, and, you know, it doesn't matter what we do, or…
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, that type of mentality, and I think I just said, here are actions you can do, and I just gave 7.
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yep, yep, I appreciated that, yeah.
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I went boom boom, boom boom boom, and I think the response to that was pretty good, and.
00:40:54.000 --> 00:41:11.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And not just there, but I share that at a deeper level on other platforms, so can you… let's just talk about that, because I think that is what I'm not seeing on other platforms. I'm seeing a lot of men's behavior, and how we should, and what we shouldn't do, what we should do, and how we need to be.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, I noticed.
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I'm not seeing actionable steps that men can do today.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:25.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I think that's important, right? Because men need a direction on options of what they can do to show up better.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And understand, men that are listening, again, I'm going to re-emphasize, any actions you take or do not take today impact generations 7 to 10 generations after you.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, that's important.
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah, and we need to be about breaking those cycles of silence, those cycles of harm.
00:41:47.000 --> 00:42:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: those cycles of acceptance, and, you know, one of the things that, you know, I suggest to men is, first of all, is can you just click like on… on… when women speak about their experiences.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Can you just, first of all, just click like on it, click love on it, click that, you know, compassion button. Just let people know that you've heard them.
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And also, advance that. We all know what clicking things does, you know? It brings attention to a thing. Just do that. That's number one. It's the easiest thing you could ever do.
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: The other thing you can do is say, I've heard you, you know, and say, yeah, and ask questions.
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Or I'm listening, I'm learning, I'm here, I'm listening, and I'm learning.
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah.
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And not necessarily to put more, um, you know, emotional and intellectual labor on women and queer folk, but, you know, yes, to ask questions if it's appropriate to do that, but also just to go study.
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, figure out what's happening. You know, there's any number of resources where we can find out what is the lived experience of women under patriarchy, and also what's the lived experience of men under patriarchy.
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, you know, also, that means we can, yes, definitely create.
00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: groups where men can share this information and do this work. We can also do political work. You know, there's a group of men, um, I think they're… they might be veterans for Peace in Boston on Park Street Station, and I remember talking to them, and they said, we're always out here, every weekend.
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: this group of men with signs saying, you know, no to war, and things like that, which is a patriarchal emanation. You know, global war is patriarchal. You know, we don't know any women, you know, sending Scud missiles or whatever they got now.
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, across continents and ICBMs and drones. No, that's not happening. Yeah, women are in the military. But these are controlled by men.
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, um, so…
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay, men, let's just be clear, right? Men are responsible for the majority of wars, genocides, mass shootings, domestic violence, violence on women, violence on children.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Patriarchal, uh, um…
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: religious harm as well. So, like, men, like, 90 to 95% are responsible for all of that.
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes.
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:06.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because we're living in that patriarchal society, and we have stripped out, like, the one thing that is good with this whole.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: thing that came out the other day, you know, regarding motherless, is that it's a highlighting that we are a motherless society. We have abused and raped the mother to such an extreme. Even our Mother Earth is fighting back.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:33.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And she is on… we are facing potential extinction level crisis in the coming decades. And, you know, until men.
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Kind of cop on and women that are endorsing and, you know, supporting this.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We need to unpack that. So that's, I guess, for me, I want to say, let's unpack this. Let's unpack, you know, where we're hiding our inner misogyny, our inner patriarchy.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:45:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: our inner harms without shaming ourselves and just saying, okay, I was conditioned. Holy wow, now I'm awake, now I see, so how do I.
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: take the next step to learn how to unpack this in a way, while also monitoring when I get triggered because I'm getting defensive.
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: maybe because of something I did, and a past harm I did to a woman or a child, and… but maybe at the time, I didn't think it was harm, because at the time, I was conditioned that that was how men should behave.
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:32.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? Or maybe I didn't address something in the locker room, right? Because, you know, it was normalized.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: All the guys were saying it, and they all laughed, and if I go against that, you know…
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: then… then I'm ousted out of the… whatever, the boys club, right?
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, out of the in-group, yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? So… but I want to go even beyond just that. I want to say, like.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hm?
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Engage in policy. You don't just have to have opinions, and even if you're just learning, and you're just.
00:45:53.000 --> 00:46:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I always say we're going to make mistakes when we're in the learning and unpacking process, okay? So…
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You also have to have a sense of awareness to know when you start responding in a reactionary way and be able to pause and pull yourself back.
00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And recognize that that may be not a time to respond if you're in that triggered state.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:28.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: that, um, but you can do certain other things, like engage in policy. Almost every state, I'm sure, has some form of domestic violence legislative bill pending.
00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: In Massachusetts, for instance, we have the litigation abuse bill, so it's genderless, but if you help support the litigation abuse bill.
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Then, we're stopping the perpetuation of bankrupting families and allowing the, um, family courts to con… using the family course to continue patterns of abuse.
00:46:50.000 --> 00:47:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: As a result of litigation abuse, domestic violence-related suicides are also skyrocketing, because victims, when they engage in… and they're stuck in family courts.
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: they're literally feeling like they have a noose around their neck, and as if they are basically enslaved in a system that they can never break free from. So the suicide rates are skyrocketing. So you can be part of that by saying, you know what, I'm gonna call my legislator and say, please support this bill, right? Or.
00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Donate, right? So engaging in policies, and engaging when there are teachings in how can you do better?
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:35.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I will say this, if you're a man that enjoys controlling women.
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:42.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, that enjoys subduing women from a power and control place.
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Use of power.
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you're going to be outed, because we're beyond that stage. The level of awareness is there, so if you're even coming on this platform to see what you can siphon, so you can weaponize what we're doing, it's not going to work anymore.
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, right.
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:57.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I'm just gonna say, it's not gonna work anymore.
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay? Because we're at that turning tide. This is something that is, like, beyond…
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: that tipping point. So you can contact your legislators between pending laws, you can call your Congress whip. Here's a big one.
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:18.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You can call your congressperson and demand that the ERA gets published.
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:33.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The ERA has already been ratified, which gives… if you don't know what that is, that's the Equal Rights Amendment. So you can contact your con… if you do nothing else, like, you can call your con… you can call your congressperson every day.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And say, why isn't this published? My mother, my sister, my daughter deserve to have equal rights under the Constitution than that man, because SCOTUS, when they overturn Roe.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: They deem that woman was not a person. Therefore, women are not protected under the Constitution. The ERA is critical.
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The ERA has kind of gotten quiet, and I don't know what the status of it is, but that is something that we can do. These are actionable steps, man, if you're looking.
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: This is, like, where do they stand? What actions are your congressperson or your legislator doing?
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, equal protection under the law should not be debatable. And so the engagement around legislation and policy for women having equal rights.
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:33.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: is important. We're not going around regulating men's prostate, testicles, and penis.
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: No, not at all.
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Not at all. Mm-hmm.
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay.
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:45.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We have more funding going towards Viagra than we do about women's trauma and reproduction issues.
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And reproductive health, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, like, these are things that shouldn't be debatable that you can do today. Like, that's just one, right?
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, exactly. Exactly, and… and I always, you know, would suggest.
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: That when men see women stepping out of their homes to, you know, raise their placards, raise their voices, raise their, um, thoughts and intellectual labor around things like that, around legislation, and around other cultural and social issues, like.
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: protecting, um, you know, Planned Parenthood or other resources that are helpful to women.
00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:24.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, and others and everyone actually, you know, I've utilized services of Planned Parenthood myself.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, but, um, that men go with them, but that men go with them in a principled way.
00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, not dragging their feet, not saying, when are we leaving? Can we get coffee? But standing beside the women in their lives, standing beside… Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, you know, we get all…
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Truly holding space.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: chest puffery about, oh, we're the protectors and providers. Well, go and protect. Be quiet and let them speak and be in a space where you're, where they know they've got.
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You're, you know, you've got their back, you know, at least that.
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Can we just re-emphasize that again? Can we just say that again? Like…
00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, to guard and protect, right? And to… like, that is not sitting there going, well, it's time to go, I've got this, and I've got that, I've got to be with the boys, I don't have time for this, right? It is doing what you just said. I want to really emphasize that.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, right. Yeah.
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:23.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, it's like, go with them, you know, and, and again, ask questions of the people you say you love, and, and many times, you know, men are not loving fully because we're not willing to be there fully.
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, let's just say that, you know, which points to, you know, men having to do a lot of inner work and a lot of external work around these issues.
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, and once we, again, realize that we've been dehumanizing women forever, and we often dehumanize our partners.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, we sideline their needs, we sideline their ways of communication and what they need from us. So, yes, we need to have their back, we need to be behind them and beside them.
00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, we don't need to lead women anywhere, you know, we're not just natural leaders. Many people say that men are naturally submissive, because one of the things we do is we listen to other men all the time. It's like, you know, they say, oh, go bomb people of color in another pla- you know, in another country, we're like, yup, we'll go.
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay.
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, that kind of thing. So, you know, we have a lot to learn, but we have a lot to support. Women are already blazing those trails, and we just need to step onto those trails.
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: We just need to step on. And then we can build our vocabulary of advocacy for women, which will include our language and vocabulary of challenging other men and our violence against women that have.
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: propped up these systems that women are saying, no more, it's not happening, we've had enough. You know, and like you said at the outset, Laura, you and I have been having these conversations.
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: for way too long. Both of us know that this doesn't happen overnight, the change doesn't happen overnight.
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:49.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, I think, I think…
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But, but…
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, I think I would like to just add, like, resources for folks to start to learn about these things, right?
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um…
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, in Massachusetts, we have Jane DOE Inc. that addresses, and also addresses how men can support, and they have training, and they have workshops, and.
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yep.
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: They have all these things that you can attend. We have, um…
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Well, the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center.
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Awesome.
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yep, and we also have, um… I'm also thinking of domestic shelters, which is national.
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: It's a really great resource.
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:32.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, which has a lot of data and stats and on learning about the impact of women and children, and as well, because there's stats on men there, too.
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:45.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So it's… it's… so it gives you the full educational thing. Then we also have the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence. So, like, those to me would be great organizations to learn, to unpack.
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:57.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: to really get educated from an education standpoint. Like, we also have to, like, education is not the Andrew Tates of the world. Like, we have to… or Donald Trump's of the world, like, they… they…
00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: That's miseducation, yeah.
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's… it's… influencers are not educators.
00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:04.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: No. Generally not.
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay? They do not have the data and stats and the numbers and all these things. So another way, leaning into this, another action step that you can take is put resources where crisis is.
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: For instance, in Massachusetts, Moore Healey cut 10% of domestic violence funding and sexual assault funding, yet domestic violence-related homicides are up 40%, and the need for services.
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:37.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: has skyrocketed, so the services were already underfunded to begin with. So donate to your local shelters.
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:42.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Financially. So even if you don't know what to say, or what action to take.
00:54:39.000 --> 00:54:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:54:43.000 --> 00:55:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: money in grassroots places matters. These organizations are underfunded, over capacity, and many times serving life and death needs, and you can also look into the National Domestic Violence Hotline.
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: to help as well, that's important. So, if you have the means, this is not charity, it is intervention that can save somebody's life.
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: A woman dies every day because of a man.
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Absolutely.
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: In their home who takes and turns love into abuse and violence and control and then takes her out.
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:33.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And deems her less than in the end. Many times it includes the children.
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I guess another thing would be another action, right, would be…
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: How do we demand accountability?
00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: from our leadership.
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:49.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Let's… let's address that, because we saw this happen in the last election cycle, right? On…
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The gaps between accountability and sexual assault and pedophile and rape and domestic violence claims.
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: In abuse cases, and we elect these people into positions of power.
00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. And that's another place we've seen men be, you know, horribly silent.
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, we didn't speak up, you know, and it's not just about the Epstein files.
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, there's much more going on than that, but that's another heinous outcome of all this stuff.
00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And of systemic patriarchy and child abuse.
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:28.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But we stayed quiet on that, and we have still been quiet on that.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And we've also stayed inactive about it. No, nobody stepped up to the Capitol steps.
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, um, and said, nobody leaves until we do this, you know, again, you know.
00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You're not seeing men doing that, right? You're not seeing them, like, doing sit-ins.
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: We are not seeing men do that. We are not necessarily organizing politically around these issues.
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, so, um, I think that's important that we notice that, and that we seek to change that.
00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, and I also wanted to, if I may, just add, you know, the Love Life Now Foundation, run by Laverne Gordon. I wanted to mention, uh.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:04.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yes.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: the network LaRed, which has, you know, a lot of resources.
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, for people who are experiencing, you know, violence in, um, as we say, intimate partner violence.
00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, also rain, which, uh…
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: I wish I could remember the… the words behind the acronym, RAINN, which their website just put those letters in the… in the search bar.
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:28.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Mm-hmm.
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And it's a powerful, powerful, uh…
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: resource, uh, for people, you know, with statistics and things like that. We talk about learning what's at stake here.
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Uh, Rain is a very good, um…
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: place for that. Also, organizations like Men Engage Alliance, Next Gen Men, A Call to… A Call to Men with Tony Porter.
00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, the work of Jackson Katz, almost anything that Jackson Katz.
00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, has fall out of his brain is really good.
00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah. Well, I'll also…
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:07.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I'll also say, like… I'll also say, like, what Tim Tebow is doing is really good, too.
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know…
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: For sure, for sure.
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know? Um, he's doing some really good work addressing men's work.
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I think, you know, and saying that we have a lot of work to do. We are the problem. Um, and I… I just want to give a shout-out there, too, because I have noticed that.
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Exactly.
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:31.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's really important. Um, and I… but I also think we have to demand accountability from our leadership.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely, absolutely. Which takes voices and bodies to do that.
00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And we have to demand… I mean… but it's… and it's not just the political sphere, because I've seen this, you know, because of the work I do, I've also seen it where I've talked to firefighters, or I've talked to police officers and other people, and a woman will be harassed or assaulted on the job.
00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: by another officer or superior, and the way to… the way I've seen it locally, like, for instance, the town of Hingham, I think it happened with a police officer.
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:04.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Recently, who reported sexual, um…
00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:11.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Inappropriate behavior of a… of another of a firefighter, and they…
00:59:11.000 --> 00:59:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: gave her basic… they called it a settlement, but basically it was a severance of her pay for the rest of the year.
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: They gagged her from ever speaking about it.
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And they promoted him into a position of power.
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:31.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, like, that's the accountability. We need to stop promoting these people to get the story to stop.
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:37.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The bullies are gonna bully, and they're gonna just bully harder if you promote them into power.
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, you know, and so we have to stop promoting in corporations, in, um, you know, civic groups and organizations. I've seen it… I've seen it across the board, even in spiritual communities.
00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
00:59:50.000 --> 01:00:04.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: where, like, oh, well, we're diverse and inclusive, we can't have this person, you know? And I stopped supporting and publicly ousted a major drum… drumming circle community because they were knowingly allowing.
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: A domestic abuser to prey on women, and after the 6th victim.
01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, that resulted that reported domestic violence of this man that they met at these drumming circles, they finally did something, but 6 victims were left in their wake. And, like, this is the accountability.
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:34.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, yes, blocking, if it's a corporation or a group, organizations that are supporting.
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, rape culture is a big deal. That actually is what is working in the Epstein files, where people are boycotting.
01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Products and corporations that are supporting rape culture, right?
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So that's accountability. By putting your money where your mouth is, if you don't know how to speak about it or how to address it while you're learning, these are actionable steps.
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay? And also counting on and saying, I… what are we gonna do? How do we get this? Because if we have one person that just says, how do we get this judge removed, that raped a child, for instance.
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Then, you know, that's not gonna… people are gonna throw in deaf ears, but if we have…
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:24.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: hundreds and thousands of… they're gonna do something. It… this is the power of the numbers that work, okay? And so…
01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:23.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes. Yeah.
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:37.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: we are here, we are at these things, but these are actions that nobody else can do. If you want to see the change, be the change by taking at least one of these steps. Start somewhere, right?
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And as we talked earlier before, right, that we need to start doing the inner work.
01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: not only doing the inner work, but one of the things I think is helpful is men sharing that vulnerability of the mistakes that they have.
01:01:53.000 --> 01:02:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Done and things that they are learning to do to unpack and want to, the transparency that they are doing.
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: To hold themselves accountable, and to be… and to model the right behavior into unpacking, like.
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:14.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: That's important, too, right? Can we talk that, too?
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, in some of the one-to-one work I do, counseling with men.
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: um, involve some of that, involve some of that vulnerability in what I call strength and vulnerability. And I've heard some men be very powerful in the sense that they're being really honest about their lives, about what.
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: They have done before. Um, that… and some of the things have not been mistakes. They've been things that people have done.
01:02:36.000 --> 01:02:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, to get certain needs met, which include power, you know, over their partners and in different situations.
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, and so I'm hearing that in very personal ways, and it's very powerful for men to engage that, and we can also have, you know, public conversations about this. You know, we can have public, you know, conversations about accountability.
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:56.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, you know, those are things I want to be a part of also, and, um, and am available for, but, um, we have to, yes, you know, look at these systems of power. We have to disempower.
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: These men who do this, but…
01:03:13.000 --> 01:03:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Also, disempower the men that allow it to happen and who, you know, take steps.
01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: To make sure that men are still holding power in this abusive and manipulative and oppressive way. Uh, we have to be honest about that, and part of that for me is, and I call it cracking our hearts open, we have to start to feel.
01:03:35.000 --> 01:03:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: what women are saying. We have to start to feel what is going on for ourselves, and we have to apply that in a principled and political way to our actions. Again, like we said, stepping out, doing the legislative work, supporting the legislative work.
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: If you can't give money to an organization, tell people about that organization. It's what the internet is made for.
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Click and send. Yeah, you know, uh, you know, just send the information, share things in their circles, you know, um, and if men do more of that.
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: That's what social media's meant for, right?
01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: sharing some of these resources, sharing what you're doing, you know, sharing, um, you know, say what Stacey Patton is talking about, Desiree Lawrence.
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, Zerlina Maxwell, all these voices of power.
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Rick Fargos has been doing a lot, too.
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Say again?
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Britt Fargus has been doing a lot, too.
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes, yes. Bridge Feltus?
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:34.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yes, sorry, yes.
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. Yeah, no, got it, yeah. Um, yes, they have been, and are doing some great work. I have a…
01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: a very good friend who's doing some work with, uh, finishing up some work with Bridge Feltus. And, um, so there are any number of resources of people that are available.
01:04:50.000 --> 01:05:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: To help us along this path, but we have to do the things that we know already to do. You know, I find it a little disingenuous when men say, well, what can I do? You know, I think that.
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:05:01.000 --> 01:05:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: possibly comes from a good place, but it's like, well, you know, again, it's not like we don't know Google's there.
01:05:07.000 --> 01:05:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And that's why I always say that it's important for us to have the language, because once we have the language, and we have the language by listening.
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, but it's…
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Because, again, women, you know, and the queer community have been saying this for a long time. They've been giving us a language we haven't been listening.
01:05:27.000 --> 01:05:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So, we don't know, but that's on us. That's not on you, you know, so…
01:05:30.000 --> 01:05:39.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, but I think… I think at least they're… I don't want to shut down men that are asking what can we do, because at least they're asking, you know?
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: The path is there.
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: No!
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:52.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And yeah, I know, like, folks like myself are frustrated because I want to be like, you should already know, you know? And I get that, but I also don't want to shut down men that are asking, and it's okay to ask, and.
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: No. No.
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: It is okay to ask. It is.
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But also be ready. Prepare yourself, right? Because I also want to say, like, growth that stays private.
01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:57.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: It is.
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:06.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, if you're just doing the work on yourself, and you're just kind of hibernating, and you're in your own little cocoon, it doesn't shift a culture.
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The rape culture got shifted worse and more in a very dangerous way, like what we're seeing play out. It's because.
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: All these perpetrators felt comfortable to talk openly about what is wrong, and we didn't have enough people, enough good men, and enough good women.
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: That didn't challenge these paradigms. It didn't say, okay, this is what I did, this is how I was conditioned. I didn't realize that what I did when I was 15, 16-, 17-year-old boy was harmful because I thought this was what men did, you know?
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And, you know, I learned now, and now what I'm trying to do is figure out how do I make reparations, how do I.
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:06:51.000 --> 01:07:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: How do I talk about this so my son doesn't make the same mistake I did and change the generations moving forward? That accountability modeled out loud is what shifts.
01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: culture.
01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Right. And that's why, you know, and I've… I think it…
01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? Right?
01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:24.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: was a blog post that I wrote years ago that was called, you know, Up From Digital Silence, you know, because men weren't even showing up online to, again, click like or to share, or to comment or anything like that.
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hmm.
01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, and we weren't asking the questions, and yes, we need to ask those questions, but we also need to listen to the answers, and we have to move our bodies and move our.
01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Without the yeah but.
01:07:36.000 --> 01:07:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Our voices without… yeah, exactly. Accept it. Accept that story as a real story, because you accept.
01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Without the yeah but.
01:07:43.000 --> 01:07:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Women and queer folk as real humans, and that deserve to be listened to and supported and to have solidarity.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: With an advocacy for.
01:07:53.000 --> 01:08:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So that goes to me to, like, the other tip, which we kind of weaved in throughout our action step that we have kind of already weaved in here, and that is.
01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: interrupting the harm in real time, right? Can you share what that looks like for you?
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yep. Mm-hmm.
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Well, you know, one of the stories is the sexual assault of Chanel Miller by Brock Turner.
01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, the reason we know about that story in the way that we do is because two men stepped in to stop him.
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: in the spot of, of sexually assaulting her, um, in an outside, you know, they were outside of a building, uh, so two men stepped in to stop that.
01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, and Brock Turner only got 3 months out of a 6-month sentence, which should have been years, of course, because he was caught in the act.
01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, but the system of the injustice system said, oh, well, we don't want to harm a young man, so let's let him go. But stepping in and interrupting… yeah, right, harming a… did I say harm a man?
01:08:47.000 --> 01:08:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's okay to harm the woman. It's okay to harm the woman where she has a lifetime of trauma, right?
01:08:51.000 --> 01:08:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Well…
01:08:54.000 --> 01:09:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely, absolutely. So, you know, again, you know, they're, uh, privileging men. But, yes, stepping in to actual acts of harm.
01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, is very important, which may include, if you're… if you don't feel safe to actually step in physically, you can make a call.
01:09:12.000 --> 01:09:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, you can call in another man or another person, you can raise the, you know, you can illuminate that it's happening. You can say it out loud. You can say, hey, what are you doing over there? You don't even have to go near them.
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The witness, be the witness. Yep.
01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But, um, you know, we can also report a thing. We can also videotape a thing. We can say, hey, you know, I saw that something happened to you. I actually have a video of it. Do you need that in any report you're gonna make?
01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, or something like that. We can do that. We can speak up in those situations of…
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, a man saying something to a woman, um, that's negative or manipulative or harmful and disrespectful, we can say, hey, that's not okay. You know, we can at least flinch.
01:09:55.000 --> 01:10:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, I learned that in my days of wanting to be a capitalist. You know, when you're doing a negotiation, someone gives you a price, you flinch, you say.
01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, that's not right, you know? You know, it says that you're not into this, but we can also use our voices to say, hey, this is what you just did. You just brought harm to this woman, and I'm not going to allow it. I'm going to call it out.
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, you know, you say you make a rape joke. Well, what's funny about that?
01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And wait for the answer, you know? Watch them start to sweat and get nervous. We need to do that. We need to make, you know.
01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:24.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:10:29.000 --> 01:10:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Patriarchy and misogynoir and misogyny uncomfortable for those who perpetrate it.
01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, uh, just like you're saying.
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And that also includes the… and that also includes the objectification of little girls.
01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely, absolutely.
01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:52.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, the hyper, you know, sexualization of children, you know, these pageants, which we saw with, like, the JonBenet Ramsey and other things, right?
01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, the hypersexualization with makeup and jewelry and piercings and.
01:10:57.000 --> 01:10:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Toddlers and tiaras.
01:10:58.000 --> 01:11:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And things, and, um, is, is really problematic, and we have to address that as well. Let children be children.
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And stop trying to make them look like an adult, so you can objectify them sexually.
01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, refuse to normalize the… as what you just said, like, the jokes, the… the…
01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:25.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The silencing of what matters, you know, addressing the harms.
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And, you know, because culture changes when men stop performing for other men.
01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:34.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Culture changes when men stop…
01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:45.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: um, you know, being silent around other men's harps, and complicit, that's the word I was looking for, complicit. You know, I mean, like.
01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, and complicit.
01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, we call that bystander abuse. Bystander, like, an abuser only has… I've been saying this for 20 years, abuser only has as much power as the bystander is willing to let them have.
01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:04.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm. Yeah. One of the… one of the most powerful lines in the movie Spotlight, which was…
01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: an amazing film that people, if they haven't watched it, should watch it, about the Roman Catholic pre-sexual abuse case in Boston and New England.
01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: One of the strongest lines was, if it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse one.
01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:28.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, and it really talks about, you know, the grooming of a culture of, of.
01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: of the village, of the neighborhood, of the people that allows for these things to happen, and right in front of our faces. We know things are going on.
01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:39.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But if that group of people, and I think men have to be a part of this group of people, who stand up and say, we cannot allow this anymore, because not only are these our family members.
01:12:50.000 --> 01:12:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, we get all, you know, bent out of shape when, you know, we talk about, yes, we're gonna protect our sisters and.
01:12:56.000 --> 01:13:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And daughters and everything like that, but we have to see every woman as a valid source for advocacy.
01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Every single woman and every single queer person, um, is… is, um, you know, valuable to protect and to allow their voice to come out and allow for them to have agency.
01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And power in their lives, you know, and to be liberated from these systems. So, yeah, what the…
01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Mm-hmm.
01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: The group of people around, you know, victims and survivors do is really, really important, and that's why our voices are important, and we need to hear more men's voices in this.
01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, and I guess it goes to my next point. Another action step is, when somebody discloses abuse.
01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um…
01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Violence, sexual assault, any of those things, whether as a child, as a woman.
01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Doesn't even matter what gender you are. And I think this crosses all barriers here.
01:13:52.000 --> 01:13:54.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: It absolutely does.
01:13:53.000 --> 01:14:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I would say, believe survivors. I am so tired of seeing a woman go on TV.
01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Honestly, disclose abuse, knowing the retaliations, the death threats, the other things that have to uproot their families, their jobs, everything. And there was a very, um…
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:24.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: well-known Tina Swithen of One Mom's Battle just had to take a step back because of her advocacy that she's been doing for almost 20 years, because of exactly what I just said.
01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, and, you know, and her addressing some really high-profile cases.
01:14:31.000 --> 01:14:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And we have to believe survivors. We have to offer, like, a chain of strength.
01:14:38.000 --> 01:14:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Uh, around them to protect them. We have to offer resources, not opinions.
01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Help connect them to legal support, safe housing, advocacy groups.
01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because when we start saying, oh, she's lying.
01:14:54.000 --> 01:15:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: She's just trying to profit. She just wants to make a name for herself. She wants to write a book or make a movie off of this. She just wants to destroy his career.
01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:04.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The data does not support that.
01:15:03.000 --> 01:15:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, absolutely does not.
01:15:04.000 --> 01:15:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The data does not support that. So, support.
01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:22.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: isn't just saving, it is standing beside somebody while they reclaim their power, and that's… I mean, we saw that with Amber Heard. The… the level of stalking and.
01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:15:22.000 --> 01:15:31.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, the… I think it was 1 million bots were paid for by… by Johnny Depp starting 2 years before the trial. Judge shopping.
01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:15:31.000 --> 01:15:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And what was disturbing is seeing how many women were cosplaying.
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: and victim shaming.
01:15:38.000 --> 01:15:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I just… I just can't. I can't, like, we have to stop that behavior. We're either part of the problem, or part of the solution.
01:15:44.000 --> 01:15:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Stop victim blaming and shaming and stop. We have to actively.
01:15:54.000 --> 01:16:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: actively support survivors, because there's a reason why less than 1% of pedophiles and rapists get convicted.
01:15:56.000 --> 01:15:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:16:03.000 --> 01:16:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay? Less than 1%. There's a reason for that. And we're either, if we're doing cosplay of a victim, because we are a fan of the other person.
01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm.
01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:18.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Then we are part of the problem.
01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Exactly.
01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:24.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: We are part of the problem that is condoning violence on women and children.
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:33.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And that is end stop, like, that's where we draw the line, right? So another… another step I want to just see, another action step, really, is.
01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, exactly.
01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: how do we raise the next generation differently? So, whether you are a parent, whether you are a football coach, you know, whether you are a church leader.
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:52.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, or in, you know, the Boys Club, Girls Club, whatever, all these things, right? Boy Scouts.
01:16:52.000 --> 01:16:56.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: How do we raise the next generation differently?
01:16:56.000 --> 01:16:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
01:16:57.000 --> 01:16:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right?
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:04.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, one of the things I always said is we have to be able to model.
01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: What that looks like. Um…
01:17:07.000 --> 01:17:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, adults often say, and I say this because I, you know, taught college and, you know, a lot of adults talk down to students and say, well, you've got to change the world, you know, this is all.
01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, we're putting it in your hands now, you know, as they wear that square hat with the tassel on it. But one of the things that we have to continue to do as adults is to model what that looks like. We have to be involved.
01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: We have to be doing that work. We have to be modeling that for younger people, you know, as elders and, you know, older adults and adults, you know, to.
01:17:39.000 --> 01:17:50.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Uh, those coming up, young people, boys, you know, to teens, to young adults, um, and we have to be part of these movements, we have to be seen.
01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:57.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: and heard voicing these ideas. We have to let them know that it's possible to have that come out of your mouth.
01:17:57.000 --> 01:18:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: To have support and advocacy come out of your mouth and that, you know, that's a normal thing, that's a required thing. Another thing is to bring up good resources for.
01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: For men and boys to learn, you know, books that are more inclusive, or that are talking about women's stories, women's histories, queer stories, queer histories.
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, you know, we can, um, also make sure that when we're consuming media, and media will invariably be racist and patriarchal.
01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: At some point, you know, like, don't go watch something about Mary, about, you know, a bunch of men.
01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Tracking and stalking a woman and getting information about her to use against her so they could get access to her body.
01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: without calling that out, you know? Um, you know, don't allow those stories to live without being challenged.
01:18:42.000 --> 01:18:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: No.
01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, you know, part of the research I've done over the years is that that can be very, very powerful, very, um, profound.
01:18:55.000 --> 01:19:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: For children, when they have those stories interrupted, even if they're mediated stories.
01:19:00.000 --> 01:19:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:19:01.000 --> 01:19:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And now with social media, we can ask those questions. Hey, son, daughter, or otherwise, or non-binary child.
01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, what are you seeing online? What did you just… you know, what was that? You know, don't let it be a secret, because we know they're being targeted. We absolutely know they're being targeted, not only for harm.
01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But to accept rape culture as a norm, you know? So, um, we can ask them. We should ask them, hey, what was that? What did you think of that? You know, we don't have to put value on it immediately, but we have to be able to have those conversations.
01:19:33.000 --> 01:19:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Where you say, oh, really? So, you know, they said this about women? Oh, um…
01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Her body, your choice? Really? What does that really mean to you? You know, ask those questions and know enough to be able to put it in perspective for them.
01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:45.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:19:48.000 --> 01:20:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, and let them know how you feel about that, and why that is unacceptable to you, and that, yes, good men, good boys, good people, good humans do not accept those things.
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hmm.
01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Because that is dehumanizing and it's harmful. You know, and often we go back to, well, would you want your sister to be treated that way? But we should also be able to see, would you want.
01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:20:13.000 --> 01:20:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: anybody to be treated that way. It's not just about family and bloodlines.
01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I think we have to stop, I think we have to, I think we also have to stop the boys will be boys.
01:20:20.000 --> 01:20:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:20:21.000 --> 01:20:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: mentality, right? And it brings… brings me… right. Well, yeah, yeah, because I think the idea of boys will be boys is… it's… it's really saying, it's okay that you fight, it's okay that you hit that girl, it's okay that you touched her inappropriately, it's okay.
01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:24.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: We can redefine that.
01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Absolutely, yeah.
01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's okay that you, you know, whatever. Um, it's just, you know, whatever. But, you know, it brings me to a story that happened in Hingham, Massachusetts that made national news.
01:20:38.000 --> 01:20:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, we have to challenge that.
01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:20:47.000 --> 01:20:49.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And that was, um…
01:20:50.000 --> 01:20:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: A boy in middle school took the picture of his female classmate.
01:20:55.000 --> 01:21:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And… put it into AI, and…
01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Made her do things naked and the questions that the school was faced with was saying it was sexual harassment.
01:21:11.000 --> 01:21:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And I'm sitting there going, she was 15, she was young at the time, middle school.
01:21:17.000 --> 01:21:22.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I go, that is child porn, that is child sexual abuse.
01:21:22.000 --> 01:21:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I don't care if it's AI-generated, and there needs to be accountability, and we need to… that's some of the language that we also have to reframe.
01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes.
01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:39.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And understand and really teach that boy the seriousness of the consequences of what he did, because he just didn't do it.
01:21:37.000 --> 01:21:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:21:39.000 --> 01:21:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And to say, hey, look at what I created. He distributed through everybody throughout the whole school, okay? So, it's…
01:21:44.000 --> 01:21:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Teaching, monitoring digital consumption, monitoring how our children are speaking, especially our boys.
01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: and who they are influenced, knowing who they're influenced by, because if boys… here's the thing, if boys are learning about masculinity from the likes of Andrew Tates of the world and on the internet.
01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:22:05.000 --> 01:22:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: then we have already abdicated responsibility. And we've also abdicated and endorsed.
01:22:09.000 --> 01:22:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:22:12.000 --> 01:22:18.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: harm on women and other children. And in this case, I saw that being perpetuated.
01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:28.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: In ways that I don't think people realize the seriousness or the harm that was being done, because they labeled it as sexual harassment.
01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:35.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Again, the language matters. This child was distributing pictures of a naked.
01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: girl and minor child. I don't care if the child was minor or not that did it. I don't care if it was AI-generated, because this is some of the legal presence that is going to be addressed. It's going at.
01:22:36.000 --> 01:22:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I forget where it is in the courts, but this is a huge problem, and the fact that we minimize that.
01:22:54.000 --> 01:22:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:22:54.000 --> 01:23:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And this girl had to… I heard stories of how other children had to leave the school district because of stuff like this.
01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mhm.
01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And go to new schools and how to be uprooted into new schools is a problem.
01:23:07.000 --> 01:23:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Absolutely.
01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And we have to sit here, and I remember, I think the first podcast we talked about was another thing about how adults were, in a way, not realizing how they were endorsing inappropriate behavior of teenage boys pretending that they were naked under car wash signs.
01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:28.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, I remember us talking about that.
01:23:26.000 --> 01:23:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, hey, look at me, you know? And adult women were like, oh, like, look at this, and I'm sitting there going, like, this is so problematic, and you don't know what you're teaching. What are we teaching these teenage boys who are already having.
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:23:35.000 --> 01:23:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:23:37.000 --> 01:23:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hormone fluctuations.
01:23:42.000 --> 01:23:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:23:44.000 --> 01:24:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know? And that they're being conditioned that women should be owned and controlled, because that is what is being put out there by these toxic men in these cultures, and our children are listening to this, and so us as parents.
01:23:53.000 --> 01:23:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Have to really take responsibility on what our children have access to and don't have access to.
01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. And that's why we have to start asking questions, we have to actually have the conversation.
01:24:09.000 --> 01:24:11.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know?
01:24:14.000 --> 01:24:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, um, just like, you know, Black families have that conversation with Black boys and girls about.
01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: what the world is going to be for them when they step outside that house. We have to have those serious conversations. What do you do when you get stopped by the police, you know, or have police following you, or anything else? You're in a store.
01:24:33.000 --> 01:24:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And a white person says, hey, there's dealing something or whatever. We have to have those conversations with boys about.
01:24:41.000 --> 01:24:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And obviously, we already have them about girls, you know, put the keys in your fingers, you know, have your phone on.
01:24:47.000 --> 01:24:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, 9-1, and then just push the 1, you know, and stuff like that, but what do we tell boys? What do we tell boys? You know, how do we tell them to be.
01:24:52.000 --> 01:24:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:24:56.000 --> 01:25:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: The safety instead of the danger around girls and women. You know, how do we not.
01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, right.
01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, you know, uh, touch inappropriately or non-consensually, uh, and that we should never do that, that consent is the core of good relationship, whether interpersonally or internationally.
01:25:13.000 --> 01:25:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So, um, we have to be able to have those conversations and say it out loud that this is the water we're swimming in.
01:25:14.000 --> 01:25:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:25:21.000 --> 01:25:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And this is the danger if we don't become involved in the process of learning about it, and then acting like we know. It's one thing to hear it, it's another thing to then reorient your actions and your lifestyle.
01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:31.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Bye.
01:25:34.000 --> 01:25:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: To act as though you actually want safety for women and girls, safety for boys, and, and, you know, accountability and healing.
01:25:44.000 --> 01:25:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And real strength for men.
01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:49.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right. I mean, I mean, he is…
01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, instead of, you know, oppressive power.
01:25:49.000 --> 01:25:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I mean, here's the reality, right?
01:25:51.000 --> 01:25:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I was…
01:25:54.000 --> 01:26:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Sexually abducted at 12 by somebody in their probably 18 to 22, I don't know, it was a stranger.
01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:02.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I was… I wasn't actually penetrated, so I wasn't… so I see that differently, but I was… I was put behind a shed, asked to pull down my pants, I was fondled, I was touched.
01:26:12.000 --> 01:26:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:26:12.000 --> 01:26:18.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And it was the scariest thing. I never talked about it until I was in my 40s because of rape culture.
01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. I'm sorry.
01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I was then, um, another boy I used to play basketball with at the age of 13, who was 17, forced himself on me.
01:26:26.000 --> 01:26:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay? Nothing happened there, but he also did the whole groping, touching, funneling, and I had to push him away, and I was, again, I was 13 at the time. I was then ultimately raped. By the way, this is all in one.
01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Oh, that's enough to happen.
01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:26:42.000 --> 01:26:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: suburban town. So, I'm saying this to parents who have teenage boys.
01:26:48.000 --> 01:26:59.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay, to please understand, all 3 times when I was a Sultan weren't by old 50-, 60-year-old men. They were all UN… they were all.
01:26:59.000 --> 01:27:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, when I was 13, was a teenager.
01:27:02.000 --> 01:27:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: when I was 12, was probably somebody out of high school, I don't know, just based on what the appearance was, okay? And when I was 15, I was sexually assaulted by one of my… the first boys I ever dated.
01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:24.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, at the age… he was 17, okay? His name is… and I'm gonna name him here, and I've named him elsewhere. Alan Baines was my rapist who stole my virginity.
01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay? So these are not… the rapists aren't always who you think, they're not daddy.
01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: They are teenage boys that are committing rapes. They are college boys that are raping.
01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And committing sexual assaults. So it is important to teach your boys.
01:27:42.000 --> 01:27:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: From the day they are born.
01:27:44.000 --> 01:27:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: About, you know, normalizing, you know, their emotion without punishment or ridicule.
01:27:50.000 --> 01:27:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:56.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, teaching boys about language beyond just anger, like how to deal with disappointment.
01:27:56.000 --> 01:28:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Shame, rejection, when a girl rejects you, how to deal with sadness. Because boys who can name their emotions are less likely to act out on them, on others.
01:28:01.000 --> 01:28:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:28:08.000 --> 01:28:18.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And then when we make, like, what you just said, right? Consent a daily practice, teaching them, asking permissions before touching. And it goes beyond that, just like in women, it's…
01:28:19.000 --> 01:28:20.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: touching an animal!
01:28:20.000 --> 01:28:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:28:21.000 --> 01:28:25.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Touching, you know, wanting to do this, or…
01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Taking something from a shelf and asking for permission if it doesn't belong to you.
01:28:29.000 --> 01:28:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:28:30.000 --> 01:28:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Always asking consent from the simplest little things, right? Versus entitlement of, I want, so I'm gonna take.
01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, right.
01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: That is rape culture language, and then we wonder why we get into the other issues that we're talking about. It starts simple, consent.
01:28:44.000 --> 01:28:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Ask your friend if you can touch that toy. Ask your friend if you can… ask them if it's okay to touch your dog.
01:28:49.000 --> 01:28:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:28:53.000 --> 01:28:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? Respecting no immediately, and modeling that, let…
01:28:57.000 --> 01:28:59.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:28:58.000 --> 01:29:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because your children, I learned this also too, your children are going to do what they see, not what you tell them, so this is where modeling what you said, right, is important, right? Consense isn't just sex talk, it's a life skill.
01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And it is something us as Americans have… like, I see it in the work I do across the boards, when we do spiritual work and spiritual healing, like, consent, even asking permission from your guides, asking permissions from your ancestors, asking permissions from the spirits of the.
01:29:27.000 --> 01:29:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: The land, the earth, the water.
01:29:29.000 --> 01:29:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, absolutely.
01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:35.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: All these things, that's all consent because when we start from place of permission.
01:29:33.000 --> 01:29:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Exactly.
01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm.
01:29:36.000 --> 01:29:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Then we're allowed in.
01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But we're in from… because I want this, and this is what I… and I've seen this in spiritual culture, demand this from your spirit team, because they're here to work for you.
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm. Hmm.
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: That's rape culture talk.
01:29:48.000 --> 01:29:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? Versus, I'm here and I'm asking permission to be here, I'm asking for permission for you to show me.
01:29:55.000 --> 01:29:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I'm inviting you in, that's consent.
01:29:59.000 --> 01:30:06.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Can I do this? Can I touch here? Can I, you know, be your friend? Like.
01:30:01.000 --> 01:30:02.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:30:06.000 --> 01:30:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Not just assume.
01:30:08.000 --> 01:30:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, exactly. And out of assumptions, and again, out of the desire to exert power comes harm.
01:30:08.000 --> 01:30:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right?
01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And again, that's why we need to listen to those experiences.
01:30:21.000 --> 01:30:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: deeply enough, and caring in a caring way enough so that we do not repeat those actions, and some of them are mistakes. They're definitely mistakes.
01:30:29.000 --> 01:30:31.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:30:30.000 --> 01:30:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, oh, I thought you wanted this, I thought you wanted this, I thought you wanted to do this. Well, we did this before, so I thought you'd want to do it now. No, we have to ask.
01:30:39.000 --> 01:30:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: consent, you know, goes away. You know, I mean, we have to check each time, is this alright? You know, and I think you might know better than I, when was marital rape actually even, um…
01:30:52.000 --> 01:30:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: made illegal. I think that was in the 90s, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:30:55.000 --> 01:31:00.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It was in the 90s. I think it was… I think, if I'm not mistaken, it was in the 90s.
01:30:59.000 --> 01:31:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:31:00.000 --> 01:31:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, I mean, we were to look at, like, marriage in general was actually a form of ownership.
01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:11.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, marriage, the concept of marriage with the church and stuff was… was contractual.
01:31:11.000 --> 01:31:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes.
01:31:11.000 --> 01:31:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Where the… where the women's family had to provide a dowry. It was a form of, you know, and men saw it as women were only there to reproduce and do domestic labor.
01:31:15.000 --> 01:31:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:31:21.000 --> 01:31:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and men sustain power through property titles and things like that, through those.
01:31:22.000 --> 01:31:24.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know?
01:31:27.000 --> 01:31:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: through those transactions.
01:31:29.000 --> 01:31:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Absolutely.
01:31:29.000 --> 01:31:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, and, you know, again, this is why the learning is so important, but also the listening is just so important.
01:31:31.000 --> 01:31:32.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Absolutely.
01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, for men who want to do this work, you know, for men who want to develop and be better, you know, we have to learn to listen, we have to model that for our sons.
01:31:46.000 --> 01:31:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And children, we have to show them what listening means. We have to show them what mirroring back what we heard means.
01:31:53.000 --> 01:32:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And we have to, you know, model saying, oh, and then how can I support you in this? You know, what do you need?
01:31:53.000 --> 01:31:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hmm.
01:31:59.000 --> 01:32:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, what can I provide for you? And also, coming to a place we're able to say, hey.
01:32:05.000 --> 01:32:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: I need this, because I'm in this state right now. I'm feeling angry, and I don't want to take it out on other people, so I might need some space, I might need some support.
01:32:16.000 --> 01:32:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Oh, I'm gonna go get that from my men's group.
01:32:17.000 --> 01:32:19.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:32:19.000 --> 01:32:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Because they're ready at a moment's notice, you know? And I hope that, you know, many people have that. But, you know, we know that men are claiming and having the experience of not having really close.
01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right, right?
01:32:30.000 --> 01:32:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Personal friends, um, but that's partially because of patriarchy, you know, because that kind of intimacy.
01:32:31.000 --> 01:32:33.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:32:34.000 --> 01:32:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:32:36.000 --> 01:32:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, which I have with a number of men, you know, um, in my life, and I'm lucky to have that, but we've worked on that as a group and in our personal lives to get that, which includes, you know, things like, um…
01:32:46.000 --> 01:32:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:32:49.000 --> 01:32:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, accountability, you know, to each other's lives, and with our own lives, and how we think and act.
01:32:55.000 --> 01:33:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So I guess, I guess that goes to also, I guess, another tip for parents is don't outsource masculinity.
01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I also want to say, not just masculinity to the internet, but also mothering to the internet, you know? This is why they had that site, motherless, right? We have to…
01:33:05.000 --> 01:33:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:33:13.000 --> 01:33:32.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: teach boys the importance of matriarchy. We have to teach boys the importance of loving our mother. That also includes our earth that sustains us, right? So, you know, naming the influences differently. You know, stay aware of what.
01:33:23.000 --> 01:33:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely. Absolutely.
01:33:32.000 --> 01:33:42.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Your children are consuming, and most importantly, like what you just said, just to kind of reiterate, just talking about it, asking questions, challenging these ideas together with their children.
01:33:42.000 --> 01:33:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:33:42.000 --> 01:33:52.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Especially your teenagers, because if you're not in the conversation, somebody else is, and they're brainwashing your children with very toxic, harmful ideas and.
01:33:53.000 --> 01:34:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: consumption, right? So, and as you also, um, mentioned too, Ukumbwa, right, was interrupting that harmful language immediately, teaching your children, don't… it doesn't have to be ridicule, it's.
01:34:05.000 --> 01:34:13.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Teaching them, right, that this word, when you say this, do you realize what you're saying when you say that?
01:34:13.000 --> 01:34:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Exactly.
01:34:13.000 --> 01:34:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? Like, teaching the impact of harmful language and what that looks like, but then you also… you have to be able to be in a place to know how to redirect them into better languaging if you're learning it yourself.
01:34:25.000 --> 01:34:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:34:26.000 --> 01:34:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? So not laughing things off when, you know, your kids might be saying something sexist about one of your female classmates, right? Or the objectification.
01:34:35.000 --> 01:34:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. Or about a celebrity, or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:34:37.000 --> 01:34:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Or celebrity. Yeah, celebrities are a big one, right?
01:34:40.000 --> 01:34:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:34:40.000 --> 01:34:46.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? So, the correction needs to be clear, calm, not like…
01:34:46.000 --> 01:34:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You're grounded, you're this, because you don't even know how to regulate what happened, right? Because when you do that, you're just reaffirming what they're learning.
01:34:54.000 --> 01:34:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm.
01:34:54.000 --> 01:35:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? So, but when you're clear and you're calm in that correction, by saying that this is not okay, that's harmful.
01:35:02.000 --> 01:35:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Where did you get this? Where did you learn this? Let's unpack this together, right? And understand why this is harmful.
01:35:06.000 --> 01:35:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:35:09.000 --> 01:35:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:35:09.000 --> 01:35:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So you're giving them now a teaching moment.
01:35:12.000 --> 01:35:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right. And giving them a language so that they can be advocates in their lives, so that they can be the young person in middle school who steps out and says, hey.
01:35:13.000 --> 01:35:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right?
01:35:22.000 --> 01:35:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Guys, we can't be doing this. You know, they all… we all have to have agency to do this. We all have to have the ability to… to…
01:35:24.000 --> 01:35:26.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:35:30.000 --> 01:35:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, to lead, you know, in this way, and also to be part of creating, um.
01:35:35.000 --> 01:35:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: A culture of consent and a culture of, you know, liberatory, um, relationships.
01:35:41.000 --> 01:35:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Oh, yes, absolutely, and I'm just going to also reiterate, um, because I would like to move into the next section about what women.
01:35:51.000 --> 01:35:57.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: what women need to do, and tips on how to navigate the men in their lives, but I just want to add, like.
01:35:57.000 --> 01:36:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, it's important as parents to be models. Again, your children are going to do what they see, so if you're not modeling this.
01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: then that is going to require you to do some work on top of that, so you can be in a position to teach them. And I know that things are stretched and people are overwhelmed across the boards, but this is the threshold we're in. This is a fire horse year, this is an action year, this is a get-shit done year.
01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: This is… and just remember that any action you do or do not do is… it will impact 7 to 10 generations down the line.
01:36:31.000 --> 01:36:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And what I would like is, you know, what tips would you offer women.
01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: navigating event and their lives, Ukumbwa.
01:36:41.000 --> 01:36:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Well, there's so much that women do already that all I can say is continue being honest with the men in your lives.
01:36:49.000 --> 01:36:54.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Uh, set the boundaries that you know you need to set, um, and that's not always…
01:36:54.000 --> 01:36:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: help, uh, um…
01:36:56.000 --> 01:37:02.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Safe to set boundaries with men, you know, because that's exactly when men, you know.
01:37:03.000 --> 01:37:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, come into states of harm. We know that it's most unsafe for women who want to leave a man who's been problematic and violent.
01:37:12.000 --> 01:37:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Uh, when they're leaving is when a lot of harmful things happen. But that's why having circles of support.
01:37:19.000 --> 01:37:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: For women is really important.
01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And being strong in reaching out to other women, and… and…
01:37:27.000 --> 01:37:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Trusted men who they know will have their back when they are in need of help, but…
01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: To utilize their own circles, you know, which men are always belittling.
01:37:40.000 --> 01:37:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, oh, you're going to hang out with the… you know, oh, it's the hands going out to clock in the… you know, that kind of thing. It's… no, this is important for women to meet together, to strengthen each other, and to build relationships. It's sort of what women do.
01:37:53.000 --> 01:37:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, that's what… how women have been guiding culture since the beginning of time.
01:37:58.000 --> 01:38:04.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, but yeah, I suggest that women, you know, stand really powerful in their story.
01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And don't, you know, back off from your story. And yes, find the support that you need, and if you can find it in men, you know.
01:38:14.000 --> 01:38:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hold men accountable in your lives who say they're allies to be your allies, you know, and expect production from them.
01:38:19.000 --> 01:38:21.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:38:21.000 --> 01:38:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, um, and…
01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, you know, but most of it would be, do what women are already doing, you know?
01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, I… and I'm not here to tell women what to do, you know, and… but yes, I can support the things that I've already seen, which are ultimately powerful about women, that their voices are absolutely powerful and clear and concise.
01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:38:45.000 --> 01:38:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, and, um…
01:38:47.000 --> 01:38:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And that, you know, I say yay and thank you, because that's part of what guides any man.
01:38:54.000 --> 01:38:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, people socialize as men.
01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, to be good people, to be good men, um, is that we have listened to.
01:39:05.000 --> 01:39:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: What's been going on and that we're able to then move forward in that way. So you give us a great, great gift, just like when you drop those 7 action steps to that man who is actually being kind of problematic.
01:39:17.000 --> 01:39:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, as he asked about what can I do, you know, I felt that, I see that all the time. You know, it's couched in…
01:39:25.000 --> 01:39:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, um, this kind of energy, but I just so appreciated that you dropped it there. You know, I was gonna take a little bit more time to get there, but you just did it, and I appreciate it, you know, but you did some work there.
01:39:37.000 --> 01:39:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, you did some emotional labor and intellectual labor. So, yes, you know, to hear those voices of women is great, and also.
01:39:46.000 --> 01:39:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, women have been saying for a long time, we need men to.
01:39:53.000 --> 01:39:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, to back us up in all of this. We need men to take some of this heat.
01:39:55.000 --> 01:39:57.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:39:58.000 --> 01:40:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So, I… and so, you know, as a man, you know, I'm always gonna, you know, go to that space to say that, yes, men, we have to listen to what women have.
01:40:07.000 --> 01:40:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Just already been doing.
01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:21.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: it's all there, you know? And so I have to say thank you to women, thank you to the, you know, queer community, LGBTQ folks, trans men, trans women, for always holding up these higher levels of.
01:40:10.000 --> 01:40:12.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yep.
01:40:21.000 --> 01:40:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Of humanity for men that we should be following and stepping into, um, and doing all the academic work, all the activist work, all the…
01:40:29.000 --> 01:40:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: spiritual work that you've been doing, you know, and sometimes I've been, you know, very honored to support some of those processes.
01:40:37.000 --> 01:40:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But, you know, thank you for all of that. That has to be said. So, yeah, for women to find their supports.
01:40:43.000 --> 01:40:54.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, please step out of isolation, which men like to put women in. You know, if I can support, you know, that, you know, I want to say that out loud. Please know that you're not alone. There's a family of women.
01:40:46.000 --> 01:40:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yep.
01:40:54.000 --> 01:41:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, across the globe that are seeking to find spaces for their voices, and all of yours, as women, are included in that, um, as much as we can, and, you know, we know there's issues with class and race.
01:40:59.000 --> 01:41:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:41:06.000 --> 01:41:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, that have to be figured out, but… but there are growing numbers of women who are speaking out.
01:41:08.000 --> 01:41:11.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, I appreciate that.
01:41:12.000 --> 01:41:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, so please continue that process, and know that there are some men who will support you in that, but…
01:41:19.000 --> 01:41:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: But trust your guts, if anything, trust your guts. I've heard nothing. You know, a lot of stories about, well, I thought this guy was okay.
01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:24.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah.
01:41:26.000 --> 01:41:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, I had a feeling, you know, I saw the red flag, but I didn't… you know, I've done it too, you know.
01:41:26.000 --> 01:41:28.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right.
01:41:31.000 --> 01:41:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, but, um, trust your guts, your gut knows, your body knows, your bones know.
01:41:37.000 --> 01:41:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And know that you stand in, you know, a legacy of greatness with women.
01:41:41.000 --> 01:41:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, I appreciate that. I just want to kind of just summarize that a little bit for those.
01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:54.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So for women, I want to say, like what you just said, like, trust your intuition, trust your body signals, like, if something feels off.
01:41:51.000 --> 01:41:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yes. Okay.
01:41:54.000 --> 01:42:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Likely it is, and I think a lot of times we've been taught to ignore that, to not trust it.
01:41:55.000 --> 01:41:58.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: It is.
01:42:01.000 --> 01:42:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And we always… I've always said it's when we make the regrets, right? So, discernment over… is not an overreaction. This is hugely important.
01:42:11.000 --> 01:42:18.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, to set… to learn to remember to set and hold boundaries early. If a man starts showing signs of.
01:42:18.000 --> 01:42:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Love bombing. I want to marry you after 2 weeks of knowing you. If, you know, um, setting those boundaries early is important, because.
01:42:23.000 --> 01:42:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:36.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: If not, this is where coercive control and other dynamics start kicking in, if the boundaries aren't set.
01:42:33.000 --> 01:42:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:42:36.000 --> 01:42:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: early. Watch for how boundaries are received, not just what they say. So it's… it's… actions speak louder than the words. If what they're saying doesn't match the actions, and I think that's where we get really.
01:42:49.000 --> 01:42:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: In a sense, confused.
01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, like, or like, we, you know, I used to think that, you know, sex was love until I realized it wasn't.
01:42:58.000 --> 01:43:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, right, right.
01:42:58.000 --> 01:43:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, so, like, all these things we have to really relearn. Also, stop.
01:43:05.000 --> 01:43:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: having the need to explain your need for basic respect and dignity and humanity. You are not responsible.
01:43:15.000 --> 01:43:22.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: For teaching grown men on how to be empathetic, or trying to convince them to not harm somebody.
01:43:18.000 --> 01:43:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:43:22.000 --> 01:43:24.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:43:22.000 --> 01:43:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, the confusion is often a red flag, not a communication issue.
01:43:27.000 --> 01:43:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Right? So, again, right? And, um, as you said earlier, too, like, pay attention to peer groups. Get into women's support groups that are actually actively doing this work. I…
01:43:28.000 --> 01:43:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I'm not a fan of women's circles or spiritual women's circles who are not addressing the real-life issues of patriarchal, white supremacist type culture.
01:43:51.000 --> 01:43:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:43:52.000 --> 01:43:58.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: That needs to be unpacked, so it would be very discerning on which circles you associate yourself with. Um…
01:43:54.000 --> 01:43:56.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Thank you.
01:43:59.000 --> 01:44:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: you know, in these groups, you know, how do men in life behave? Does he challenge them, or does he blend them in? Character shows up most early.
01:44:09.000 --> 01:44:14.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: When it's tolerated, so this is how, like, abuse dynamics gets, you know.
01:44:15.000 --> 01:44:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: into some challenges. Also, resources and support of each other. You know, one of the things I've learned is if you have common respect and.
01:44:16.000 --> 01:44:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:29.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: For each other's bodily autonomy, mental autonomy, and physical autonomy.
01:44:29.000 --> 01:44:35.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, love is about honoring those… those partnerships, and safe contact.
01:44:29.000 --> 01:44:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:41.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And not, like, well, you know, I've been with you so much, I'm entitled, or I paid for this dinner, so I'm entitled.
01:44:35.000 --> 01:44:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:44:39.000 --> 01:44:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
01:44:41.000 --> 01:44:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:44:41.000 --> 01:44:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Like, that stuff has to end, right? So community reduces the isolation and the risk. And I would like to just say, too.
01:44:43.000 --> 01:44:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:44:50.000 --> 01:44:56.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Women did not create rape culture, and they are not responsible for fixing it.
01:44:53.000 --> 01:44:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:44:56.000 --> 01:45:07.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Although we have been sheltering probably 95% of the emotional labor, physical labor, financial labor, and, you know, spiritual labor.
01:45:03.000 --> 01:45:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:45:05.000 --> 01:45:07.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:45:07.000 --> 01:45:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: But we are powerful in what we model, what we tolerate, and what we teach the next generation, and that includes how we vote.
01:45:17.000 --> 01:45:35.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: for politicians, or for people that get promoted into positions of power at your job, that have histories of domestic violence, sexual assault, or predatory behavior of children. Like, if you are going, yeah, but, and you do it anyway, then you are.
01:45:26.000 --> 01:45:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Note 2.
01:45:29.000 --> 01:45:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah.
01:45:35.000 --> 01:45:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Perpetuating the harm, recognize it, because we're witnessing it play out.
01:45:40.000 --> 01:45:43.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:45:40.000 --> 01:45:42.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Now, back to Matt.
01:45:43.000 --> 01:45:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And for those men that are listening, none of what we have said today.
01:45:48.000 --> 01:46:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: replaces your responsibility. It only reinforces, basically, how urgently you are so needed in to change the dynamics of what we are facing. If you're concerned about fascism and Christian nationalism, it is rooted in the very things that we are talking about today.
01:46:08.000 --> 01:46:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: and how we view women. So, you know, for men, it's action.
01:46:15.000 --> 01:46:25.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: For parents, it's reshaping. For women, it's discernment and boundaries, and it becomes a whole ecosystem of change. Not just one group.
01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: carry it all.
01:46:27.000 --> 01:46:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right.
01:46:27.000 --> 01:46:34.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Any final words you would like to share before I kind of go into, or just, actually, just add real quick.
01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And your discernment process, I teach this with my clients, one-on-one.
01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:44.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Whenever you're responding, or you find yourself being reactive or triggered.
01:46:44.000 --> 01:46:50.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: My process is always, stop, pause, breathe, continue to breathe.
01:46:51.000 --> 01:46:53.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Create that space.
01:46:53.000 --> 01:47:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So you can get clarity to know which action step to take. There's so many options we gave you, but really sit with what feels right for you, that you have the capacity.
01:47:05.000 --> 01:47:10.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: To do today, while you're working on the other ones you would like to do tomorrow.
01:47:12.000 --> 01:47:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Right, exactly.
01:47:12.000 --> 01:47:17.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: There's my thoughts. Final word.
01:47:14.000 --> 01:47:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah, and I, you know, yeah, I always appreciate that, and yeah, you know, one of my thoughts would always be, you know, checking out men like Jackson Katz, who have.
01:47:26.000 --> 01:47:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: always for years and decades that I've known about his work, said that this is a men's problem.
01:47:31.000 --> 01:47:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, that has been made problematic for women. You know, women have inherited the problems of men, and the power and oppression of men.
01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:46.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So, uh, men have to be a part of this dismantling of patriarchal systems.
01:47:47.000 --> 01:47:57.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Which includes, you know, communication networks, which includes medical systems, which includes the injustice system, which includes education, which includes just social things like organizations and.
01:47:57.000 --> 01:48:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Corporations like you're talking about, and even, you know, ones that are set up for, um, liberation or mutual aid.
01:48:05.000 --> 01:48:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Have to be really assessed, uh, for how patriarchy and other intersectional oppressions live within them.
01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So, um, men have to take on, um.
01:48:15.000 --> 01:48:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: This mantle of… of work, you know, and that's why I call it men's work.
01:48:20.000 --> 01:48:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, and other men do too, you know, but that's why I think it's important to define it as work, because that's what it is, and that's what it becomes when you see what we're up against and what we have to do.
01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:32.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Hmm.
01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, to bring the world back into balance.
01:48:34.000 --> 01:48:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's very true. You know, we're beyond the phase of…
01:48:38.000 --> 01:48:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Stick our heads in the sand, numb our way through life…
01:48:40.000 --> 01:48:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Hmm.
01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:48:43.000 --> 01:48:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, um, we want the change, we have to become the change that we want to see.
01:48:48.000 --> 01:48:51.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Not just talk about it, but actually walk it.
01:48:51.000 --> 01:49:04.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And, um, if somebody wants to either book some consulting with you, or speaking, or to work with you one-on-one, or anything like that, what's the best way that folks can find you, and find your work?
01:49:04.000 --> 01:49:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Well, I would hope that people would check out my Linktree, um…
01:49:08.000 --> 01:49:14.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And if you can share that Linktree link, that would be great. If you find me on Instagram.
01:49:14.000 --> 01:49:16.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: or Facebook, uh…
01:49:16.000 --> 01:49:22.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Uh, and I believe also Substack 2, you will find that, um, Linktree link that gives you, you know, my bio.
01:49:22.000 --> 01:49:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: some of the things that I offer, um…
01:49:25.000 --> 01:49:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: uh, testimonials, things like that, and some of the services that I provide for people, you know, which is one-to-one counseling.
01:49:32.000 --> 01:49:35.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Also, working with groups, organizations.
01:49:35.000 --> 01:49:42.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, and communities, um, to look at these issues, to really face this, to bring accountability around issues of.
01:49:42.000 --> 01:49:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: of anti-patriarchy and anti-racism and consent. I've been teaching consent for years now.
01:49:47.000 --> 01:49:53.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, um, and again, I look at it as a broad scale of things from the interpersonal to the international.
01:49:53.000 --> 01:50:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, so, um, yes, reach me by, you know, looking at my information there. I want people to be able to see who I am.
01:50:00.000 --> 01:50:08.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, um… and where I'm coming from. But also, email is the best way to reach me, and that's my first name, Ukumbwa at gmail.com.
01:50:08.000 --> 01:50:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And that would be the best way to reach me.
01:50:11.000 --> 01:50:17.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, to book some time so we can talk about how we can work together, what that looks like.
01:50:18.000 --> 01:50:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, you know, how much time we want to commit to that, and what your goals are, you know, for either organizational, group growth or personal growth.
01:50:27.000 --> 01:50:33.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And… and accountability. So, um, yes, looking at my Linktree is… is, is one of the best ways to find out.
01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:38.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: what I offer and who I am, and then to email me would be the best way to contact me.
01:50:38.000 --> 01:50:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Beautiful, beautiful. Well, for those of you who lasted this long on this podcast episode, thank you so much for staying.
01:50:47.000 --> 01:50:52.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: on this episode of Triggers in Spiritual Medicine. If you found this episode.
01:50:52.000 --> 01:51:03.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Um, helpful and informative. Uh, we are a grassroots community, non-commercialized podcast, so your share.
01:51:03.000 --> 01:51:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Your like, your comment, all those things, your subscription.
01:51:09.000 --> 01:51:15.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Really helps sustain, um, our growth and our reach.
01:51:15.000 --> 01:51:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's, uh, very, very important. So, and until next time, um, for the next episode of Spiritual, uh.
01:51:23.000 --> 01:51:30.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Triggers in spiritual medicine. I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you so much for joining.
01:51:28.000 --> 01:51:30.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Thank you, Laura.
01:51:30.000 --> 01:51:32.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:51:36.000 --> 01:51:38.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Okay.
01:51:37.000 --> 01:51:39.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: 4.
01:51:38.000 --> 01:51:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So… how did you feel? How do you feel about that? You good with that?
01:51:42.000 --> 01:51:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Good. Yeah, good. Um…
01:51:45.000 --> 01:51:51.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, as I will probably say until I die, we could always use more time to talk about these things, and also to.
01:51:51.000 --> 01:52:01.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: motivate people to do something, you know, um, so, yeah, um, if I didn't have a call at 12, I'd say, yeah, let's give it another hour, you know, not, not that, you know.
01:51:59.000 --> 01:52:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Alright, alright?
01:52:01.000 --> 01:52:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: We just have a few more things to say.
01:52:02.000 --> 01:52:09.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Well, we kind of… yeah, we kind of delved into two different podcasts, but we got a lot in.
01:52:09.000 --> 01:52:11.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: There's a lot of teeth in there.
01:52:09.000 --> 01:52:13.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.
01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:16.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know, I'll probably… I'll probably have my assistant do 3 reels.
01:52:16.000 --> 01:52:18.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm. Oh wow, okay, gotcha.
01:52:16.000 --> 01:52:23.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: So, I'll ask her to do 3 reels, because it was long enough. We… there's enough content there to do at least 3 reels.
01:52:22.000 --> 01:52:25.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, there's… yeah, I think there's plenty of stuff there.
01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:27.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: If not more.
01:52:25.000 --> 01:52:31.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and as always, yeah, I hope what I've said is helpful, and um…
01:52:31.000 --> 01:52:37.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, meaningful to people that you have follow you, and stuff like that, so, um…
01:52:36.000 --> 01:52:40.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's always helpful. I love these conversations with you.
01:52:39.000 --> 01:52:44.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Thank you. Thank you. So do I. Thank you very much, I appreciate that. Yeah.
01:52:41.000 --> 01:52:48.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know? And, um, you know, I value… I value your friendship and… and input.
01:52:49.000 --> 01:52:55.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And it just brings to mind of actually reaching out to the town of Hingham and.
01:52:55.000 --> 01:52:57.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:52:56.000 --> 01:53:01.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Seeing about doing a presentation on… because I really want to focus on the action step piece.
01:53:01.000 --> 01:53:03.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:53:01.000 --> 01:53:05.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: And how do we stop the perpetuation of this.
01:53:04.000 --> 01:53:09.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, mhm. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that sounds great.
01:53:06.000 --> 01:53:08.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: You know?
01:53:08.000 --> 01:53:14.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Because I think, I think we know enough about what's wrong, we're not talking about the action steps.
01:53:15.000 --> 01:53:27.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah, and I think the, you know, uh, accepting the what's wrong is really important to the action steps. I think no one, you know, no man's gonna change their behavior.
01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:29.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Unless they feel…
01:53:29.000 --> 01:53:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: That the need for the shift is really important. They have to be motivated into this.
01:53:34.000 --> 01:53:40.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, as you know, it's not just a mathematical or, you know, kind of…
01:53:40.000 --> 01:53:47.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: brain thing, oh, well, there's such a thing as oppression, I guess I should do that. But there's a price to that that I think people have to feel.
01:53:47.000 --> 01:53:49.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, and…
01:53:49.000 --> 01:53:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Um, yeah, one of the posts I shared, someone shared with me, had a picture of a man.
01:53:55.000 --> 01:54:05.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And, like, there was a heart in front of him, and it had cracks in it. And I was like, oh my god, that's what I've been talking about. You know, we have to be able to crack that piece open. We have to have that compassion.
01:54:05.000 --> 01:54:12.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, that radical compassion. So, yes, you know, we have to talk about the action steps, but we have to want action steps.
01:54:12.000 --> 01:54:20.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And I have to admit, you know, and this may be a bias of mine, you know, when I've heard men ask, what should I do next?
01:54:12.000 --> 01:54:14.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Mm-hmm.
01:54:20.000 --> 01:54:26.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, I'm always like, where are you coming from right now? And I will give them resources.
01:54:26.000 --> 01:54:34.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: You know, and stuff like that, but I'm like, why did you ask that way? You know, in a kind of self… me-deprecating way.
01:54:34.000 --> 01:54:41.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Or a woman, you know, deprecating way, you know, you said that. And, you know, so, anyway, I have to figure that out for myself.
01:54:42.000 --> 01:54:48.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: I have to check myself on that, but… but I'm, you know, very concerned about how we ask.
01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:55.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And what that means, and yeah, we're not asking enough, and I hope people are already.
01:54:55.000 --> 01:55:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: you know, looking into things, but I know we have to have conversations to get there.
01:55:00.000 --> 01:55:02.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Yeah, we do.
01:55:01.000 --> 01:55:10.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: So that's part of what I want to… you know, of course, as you know, I want to be a part of, you know, my byline is, let's talk, you know, so let's, you know, I want…
01:55:10.000 --> 01:55:15.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: people to… you know, I want men to open up our dang mouths and our ears, and…
01:55:15.000 --> 01:55:19.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: go, really? What's this all about? You know, I want to have that question, you know.
01:55:18.000 --> 01:55:28.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: I mean, I'm just trying to be very mindful that the changes that we want to see probably may not happen in our lifetime, because it really is…
01:55:26.000 --> 01:55:28.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Oh, I know they're not.
01:55:28.000 --> 01:55:31.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: It's really gonna take…
01:55:32.000 --> 01:55:39.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: a re-education, and those men, like, I said it all, I said, I've been saying it for a long time.
01:55:34.000 --> 01:55:36.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Absolutely.
01:55:41.000 --> 01:55:43.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Men under the age of 30.
01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:45.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:45.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: have been raised…
01:55:45.000 --> 01:55:47.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: Most of their life.
01:55:47.000 --> 01:55:52.000
Laura Bonetzky-Gaffney: with Andrew Tate's and Donald Trump's and Elon Musks as their role models.
01:55:50.000 --> 01:55:52.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:55:52.000 --> 01:55:54.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Mm-hmm.
01:55:54.000 --> 01:56:00.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: Yeah. Yeah, and those guys in the Inside the Manosphere documentary.
01:56:02.000 --> 01:56:06.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: And as, you know, kind of… I don't know, um…
01:56:06.000 --> 01:56:11.000
Ukumbwa Sauti: somewhat useless as I see that documentary, um, though I think it's helpful. It can be very helpful.
