Have you ever wondered what it's like to make a combat jump in the midst of the Vietnam War? SL Waller, a seasoned US Army veteran, takes us through his riveting journey, beginning from the moment he enlisted in November 1964, through his first combat jump in 1967, and beyond. His story doesn't just end on the battlefield, but extends into his journey reintegrating into a society deeply divided over the war.
Join us as we navigate Waller's life post-war, where the challenge of adjustment is a battle in itself. But with the steadfast support of his wife Phyllis, Waller finds a new purpose and a way forward. His account provides a stark depiction of how veterans had to adapt after returning home, offering a fresh perspective on what it truly means to serve your country and then come back to a civilian life that can seem alienating at times.
Lastly, we delve into the often unseen aspects of being a veteran - the treatment by the VA, the impact of the PACT Act, and the evolution of civilian attitudes towards veterans. Waller's insights illuminate the importance of community, his personal coping mechanisms, and his views on the changing societal perceptions. Whether it's his first leap from a plane or his advice for fellow veterans transitioning out of military life, Waller's captivating narrative offers an enlightening look into the lived experiences of a soldier during and after the Vietnam War.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Have you ever wondered what it's like to make a combat jump in the midst of the Vietnam War? SL Waller, a seasoned US Army veteran, takes us through his riveting journey, beginning from the moment he enlisted in November 1964, through his first combat jump in 1967, and beyond. His story doesn't just end on the battlefield, but extends into his journey reintegrating into a society deeply divided over the war.
Join us as we navigate Waller's life post-war, where the challenge of adjustment is a battle in itself. But with the steadfast support of his wife Phyllis, Waller finds a new purpose and a way forward. His account provides a stark depiction of how veterans had to adapt after returning home, offering a fresh perspective on what it truly means to serve your country and then come back to a civilian life that can seem alienating at times.
Lastly, we delve into the often unseen aspects of being a veteran - the treatment by the VA, the impact of the PACT Act, and the evolution of civilian attitudes towards veterans. Waller's insights illuminate the importance of community, his personal coping mechanisms, and his views on the changing societal perceptions. Whether it's his first leap from a plane or his advice for fellow veterans transitioning out of military life, Waller's captivating narrative offers an enlightening look into the lived experiences of a soldier during and after the Vietnam War.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Welcome to another episode. I'm here today with SL Waller. He is a Vietnam veteran, former US Army. How are you doing, SL?
Speaker 2:I'm fine here in McKinney, Texas.
Speaker 1:And McKinney, texas, and I met you here in Fort Collins, colorado, where I live. I know you were here visiting your granddaughter, is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, granddaughter at Colorado State Starting her second year, so we came by there after we spent a week over in Warner Park.
Speaker 1:Wow, man, I'm really grateful for you taking the time. I know I randomly grabbed you on the side, but I saw your Vietnam veteran and I just wanted to hear a little bit about your story and I appreciate you taking some time to jump on today, my pleasure. So what did it look like before you even joined? I always like to ask people like why did you join the military, what did it look like for you?
Speaker 2:Well, I was actually living in Albuquerque, new Mexico, when I joined. I had been there for well about a year and a half, almost two years. My dad got transferred from Amarillo, texas, to Albuquerque, new Mexico right in the middle of my senior year of high school. But I was ready to go do something different anyway, so I didn't mind going to Albuquerque and finishing up my last half of my senior year, and after a year and a half of not accomplishing much other than pumping gas at a gas station and working on old cars, I decided I needed to change. So I went downtown Albuquerque one day and the Marine deal was too far to walk, so I joined the Army.
Speaker 1:Fair enough. So they just had the great placement. Let's get it a little bit closer. Yeah, all right, and what year did you join in?
Speaker 2:I joined in November, actually November 10th 1964. I think that's almost Veterans Day.
Speaker 1:That is.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:And that's when you went off to basic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I went to Fort Polk, louisiana, on a train. Actually they didn't have many airplanes that went from Albuquerque to Louisiana, so we were two or three days on a train and back in those days the sergeants that met you at the train station were pretty scary guys, but that was early mid-November so it was colder in Louisiana than I expected and we got to go home for Christmas and that was a welcome break from basic training. And then for Benning, georgia, for Infantry Field Radio Mechanics School, and I heard these crazy guys in the morning at five o'clock running around in circles hollering airborne, airborne, and I didn't know what they did. But when I asked around I found out that they were earning $55 a month extra for jumping out of airplanes. I said, well, hell, I can do that. Double my pay. I was making $78.50 a month as a private then, and so I was right there at Fort Benning, the departure for school. So first five airplanes I was ever in I jumped out of. I had never been in an airplane before.
Speaker 1:Wow, so that's impressive. So you're just your first five ever. Those were the ones you were like. Well, I'm going up, I'm going to jump out of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and. I didn't know what landing was in an airplane until I went home on leave one time. So yeah, it's an interesting thing. But there were C119s left over from Korean War, so we were glad to get out of them actually.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I think they still keep that tradition alive. I think we had all the aircraft I was ever in was left over from the Vietnam War and it was definitely. We always joked that if it wasn't. You know, if you're in a helicopter that wasn't making some weird noise or leaking some fluids, that's when you knew you had problems. As long as it was leaking or making weird noises, you're good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we jumped, I made 18. Yeah, I made 18 jumps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we jumped out of the old C119, of course, in jump school. But then at Fort Bragg, north Carolina, where I went, I was 82nd airborne there for about a year and when I got to Fort Bragg, north Carolina, they had just left for the invasion. They sent two battalions to Dominican Republic to prevent another communist rebel guy to take over the Dominican Republic. So we took care of that and we stayed down there for six months. So we got from. In my case I went over down there in June, got home in December and we prevented that communist takeover of the Dominican Republic. Not too many people remember that war. It even had a operation named Power Point. I think it was or Power or something. We have a little high school annual looking thing that describes what that war was about. But it was a short war but we were getting combat pay for six months, so it was cool. So that's another 65 a month.
Speaker 1:Okay, so he's tripled, tripled everything really quickly.
Speaker 2:What was it like?
Speaker 1:down there in the Dominican Republic.
Speaker 2:Hot, sticky. We lived under a bridge for three months, the Duarte Bridge. The rebels were across the bridge and an old I think it was an old cotton mill or something like that and we were on the other side of the bridge and they take pot shots at us all night long. So you learn real quick not to go out to the front of the area to go to the bathroom at night, because they would take a shot at you if they saw you. But eventually we took care of them and we did not jump into the Dominican Republic. The Marines, thank you, took the airport and then we flew C-130s in. Okay, we thought we were all okay when we got back to Fort Bragg, north Carolina. We weren't going to have to go to Vietnam because we had already done our war for six months and we were wrong.
Speaker 1:So and did you see a lot of conflict there? I mean, were there a significant amount of firefights? What did it look like for you?
Speaker 2:Well, the fighting only lasted about three weeks. We killed about 300 of them and they killed about 30 of our guys and the rest of it was police duty. Basically, our particular group of battalion was responsible for guarding the access of the bridge coming in and out of the San Domingo. And the rebels, their idea of armored personnel was impolos, chevrolet impolos, with no windows, with machine guns sticking out of me, so it was an interesting day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's very interesting, and so you were there six months.
Speaker 2:I lived there six months from. June until December, and then everybody came home.
Speaker 2:Actually, the Navy brought us home on old flat bottom LSDs or LSTs, I don't know what the Navy calls them, but we were glad to get back to North Carolina. And then, five months later, they started sending us to Vietnam, to the 173rd Airborne Brigade, who had actually come from Okinawa. The 173rd Airborne Brigade, the entire brigade, moved to Vietnam in May of 65. So when we started replacing them in May of 66, we were replacing the guys that had done their 12 months and they were coming home, or we were over there replacing them one at a time, 10 at a time, whatever in the place right near the Benoit Air Base, which became the largest air base in Vietnam, still is. I guess it's not ours now, though.
Speaker 1:No, yeah Well, so y'all were essentially just dropping in and replacing people that were. They did 12 months and then you were dropping in to replace them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, most, most of the Army guys were 12 month service in Vietnam and you hope you lived the 12 months and you came home yeah.
Speaker 1:What was that like? Because for us we would drop in and replace a whole unit, and it sounds like it was more of a handful of people would go in and just replace a few people. So you weren't actually with all of your buddies that you had trained up with all the people in your unit state side that you knew.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the best example of that was Forrest Gump. Him and his friend Bubba in that movie were replacements, and so they had to learn from the guys who had been there for a year or six months or two days, and so that's the way that war was run until 1973, when we turned it over to the South Vietnamese.
Speaker 1:And so would you say, and I would have never thought to bring up Forrest Gump, but since you did, clearly you've seen it was at a pretty accurate representation of a lot of things that were, that were happening over there.
Speaker 2:A lot of people asked me that in the last 50 years and I think the answer is some of us had it easier than others and some of us had it harder. I was probably in the middle of that continuum. A whole lot of guys had it a lot worse than I did up north, but we were only about 100 clicks north of Saigon, so we were going into the Arn Triangle around Tay Nhan and everything north of the Ben Wire base to keep the enemy at bay, which worked okay until the Tet Offensive in January 30th or 68.
Speaker 2:But I was already home in college by then. But you learn from the guys in that part of that movie that's what they were doing, learning from the guys in front of them, because some of those guys that I replaced had left Okinawa, had been their career guys, who had been their whole careers in Okinawa. Because Okinawa became a large US Army military deal after World War II. So they created the 173rd Airborne Brigade, I think in 1963 maybe, and so they're now. Last I heard they were in Italy.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That brigade.
Speaker 1:So what is it you mentioned? You get asked that a lot over the last 50 years. I'm curious to ask you what do you not get asked that you wish everybody knew about?
Speaker 2:Well, one of the questions they always ask is how many people did you see die, or how many did you kill, or those kind of questions, and my typical answer is you know, probably the answer is too many of both. We lost 58,000 troops in Vietnam from 1964, basically all the way to 1973. And then we left there in a hurry, as you recall, with the embassy in Saigon and.
Speaker 2:North Vietnamese took over within 24 hours, just like Afghanistan just happened. So history repeats itself. But as we, as you know, we weren't welcomed home by and large Because of the late 60s. Our country was in a mess with anti-war protesters and the LBJ deal and Robert McNamara, the Secretary of Defense, who wanted numbers. He wanted body count. So we'd give him body count. We don't really know if it was true or not, but you say well, how many did you get today? And he said well, I think I got 20, if you're out on patrol this last in three weeks, or maybe you get, well, I need more. Okay, I did 50. So that's the way that war went.
Speaker 2:Because there was no internet or cell phones, we stayed over there 12 months until we got to come home. So the Westmoreland and the other generals could not do their jobs because the politicians wouldn't let them do it. But the Vietnamese people are wonderful people. They've been fighting for their independence for hundreds of years. They fought the Japanese, they fought the Chinese, they fought the French and they fought us and they beat them all. So lesson learned stay out of civil wars.
Speaker 1:That is, yes, a great lesson, and I think about that. And when I ask you too, what does it make you think? Because you mentioned history repeating itself, because I still have questions to ask you about your time in, but just you mentioned everything with Afghanistan. What thoughts do you have about being able to? You saw it happen with your time in and seeing it with our generation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the domino theory that's how we got into Vietnam. The domino theory that I don't know who started it, but LBJ says we don't want a communist running Vietnam. And now they do and they're doing a pretty good job. I've been three years in a new house here and my right-armed fence came from Vietnam. A lot of my clothing comes from Vietnam and so they're a great trading partner right now and they have a good country. We have a good country, as good as it can be right now, politics as it are. But they were people who had fought off all those other invasions to their country, and the French in particular. It was Saigon. It was called the Paris of the Orient, I think, and the French thought they were running things there. And Ho Chi Minh had a different idea and he was educated both in Russia and the US, so he knew that the hearts and minds of the North Vietnamese people went over and he was right.
Speaker 1:Well, I always love hearing comparisons about it and somebody mentioned and. Then there's a book, the Infinite Game, where he talks about just what you're fighting for and they actually use that as an example. Whereas other countries that go in are fighting to win, whereas they were fighting to survive, for them it was a survival thing. What was it like for you to experience that? Must have been a really long 12 months. What was that like for you?
Speaker 2:Counting Santa Domingo for the six months in Vietnam for 12 months. I went in when I was age 19. So my 20th birthday and my 21st birthday were both in combat, earning combat pay, and we were just doing our jobs. We volunteered. I did volunteer. As you know, more than half the troops were drafted, so they're in for two years and here us volunteers were in for three years and in fact when I joined I didn't even know for sure how many years I was in for I just wanted to go do whatever I wanted to do in the Army. It's just you're doing your job, you're out of the politics. Because I didn't understand the politics. All we were told was Ho Chi Minh was a bad guy and he was trying to take over South Vietnam and LBJ didn't want him to. So we were trying to prevent that takeover. And that was old news for the North Vietnamese. They had heard that story and they thought they had a better idea politically of how to run that country. And now they're doing a good job of it.
Speaker 2:So the soldiers were just doing our jobs. We weren't asked about the politics, we were just told to go on this operation and 12 months I was over there we did. I think it was 12 or 13 different operations that lasted anywhere from two weeks to three weeks. You'd go into the iron triangle, you'd take over an area. You might find some trouble, you might not, and then you'd come back and drink beer and eat steaks and enjoy life and take a shower. Then a week later you'd jump back on the helicopter to Huey's. Back then there were Huey's and you'd jump back in the helicopter and go out. So you were out in the bush two weeks, maybe sometimes three weeks, sometimes only a week. Most of the time it was in and out on a helicopter, but a few times we convoied in.
Speaker 2:But there aren't a lot of roads in Vietnam. That Highway 1 was still there. Of course, when people go back there on vacation, a lot of Vietnam vets do. I have not or do I plan to Not opposed to it. I just don't see any benefit. There's things that would have changed. Obviously, in 55 years the village I was near wouldn't even be recognizable. It was just a small Vietnamese village and we took it over and built an airport there Benoit Air Base.
Speaker 1:And so I mean it's shocking to me you talk about just doing your job and it really is giving me a moment of pause. I love that you have that outlook on it. What was it like for you getting out? I know you said because that was a very different experience, I think, than the generation and then our war that we had to deal with what was it like getting back from Vietnam?
Speaker 2:Well, you recall, short. If you had a week left, you're really short. The short you could sit on the edge of a matchbox and your feet would dangle. If you're short six months, you're not very short. If you got six more months in the bush, you got 50-50 chance coming on the live. So being short was a good thing. So in fact I came home in May 5th and I went out on an operation in March and April and I didn't want to, but my job was as a field infantry radio mechanic. I had to keep the radios working, but when a battle started up you weren't worried about fixing radios, you were worried about defending your position and staying alive. So we were glad to be short and on our way home, but we had, I think, camaraderie with those that are still there. You had to continue to do your job for the whole 12 months, whether you like it or not, and that represented only about 30% of the people in Vietnam.
Speaker 2:It was a support war. There was six or seven people supporting what? 25% or so of the soldiers who were actually doing the battling that needed. You needed ammo, you needed food, you needed water, you needed Agent Orange and all that other stuff the Air Force. We only made one pursuit combat jump over there in February of 67. And we were happy to do that.
Speaker 2:And some general I think his last name was Dean, general Dean. He wanted a combat jump ribbon on his chest so we jumped about 800 and guys I think it was 820 people jumping out of C-130s near a place called Tay Ninh in February of 67. In about 30 minutes we put 800-plus guys on the ground to block a group of North Vietnamese regulars from going into Cambodia. So that was in February of 67, and I was due to go home in May, so I was not too excited about doing that one. The Air Force did their job. They took us out there and dropped 800 of us on the ground and that didn't stop the North Vietnamese. They all went to Cambodia quickly through one of our companies and most of that company was lost.
Speaker 1:What was that Phono in?
Speaker 2:Sh suspected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was it like to do to actually be on a combat jump?
Speaker 2:Scary, had more gear than you normally have. You have more ammo than you normally have. It was basically a short drug zone, so it was kind of like a rice paddy, but not as deep water, and the jump went quite well. There was pictures I have of one guy that got caught in a one large tree and he hung up there in that tree for a while. But the real battle started. As they were, the North Vietnamese regulars were heading into Cambodia and there was a lot of talk about that particular. The 173rd Airborne was pleased to do it. It was the second battalion of the 503rd that jumped in that day. There's been no other battalion jump, I don't think in any of our wars since then.
Speaker 1:I know you mentioned it that a general wanted to get his combat jump wings, and it's interesting how time that's also repeats itself, because I've heard many of stories of just even throughout when I've seen it where officers are trying to get certain things knocked out that are rarefeeds in combat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he wanted that deal and he got it. I think he claimed he was the first guy on the first plane, but I'm not sure I believe that.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating to me how, being separated by 40 years, how similar some of this stuff is for our time, how people chasing little accolades and war time. So did you actually jump down into combat or did you all jump into it and patrol over to combat?
Speaker 2:They were shooting at us as we were coming down, but they weren't very good shots. I'm not aware that anybody got killed in the air, and when you're jumping in at somewhere around a thousand feet, you don't have very long to think about it anyway, right.
Speaker 1:Well, but it's still. I mean that's got to be just very scary to jump into people shooting at you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you change your mind about jumping out of C-130, there's a very large fellow in the back of the plane called Jumpmaster that's willing to help you out.
Speaker 1:I think that also hasn't changed in the army as well. And so you did that. And what was it like returning back in back, to getting back stateside, because you did your two tours of combat duty. What was it like coming back to the states?
Speaker 2:You know I don't guess I understood what was going on, particularly the way the war was going. Particularly the worst of it, I think, was in California because of the liberal nature of their politics out there. That was true now and it's true back then. And they had protesters that had a permanent job, if you call it a job of making sure we were not welcome home in our military uniforms. And to the Oakland, san Francisco.
Speaker 2:Most of us came back through that Oakland terminal, as I recall there was some base near there I guess I really don't remember the name of it, but I went to the.
Speaker 2:Whatever the airport was it had to be San Francisco or Oakland, I guess to get back to the Dallas, texas area and I personally don't recall being abused or I've heard stories of guys that were called baby killers and spit on them and all that stuff. And the protesters were back then we called them liberal hippies and they believed what they believed and the 60s were a terrible, terrible time for our country and so we were not welcome home by that group. My mom and dad were glad I was back home in Amarillo, texas, but I didn't pay much attention to that stuff. I just got on another airplane, probably out of Dallas to get to Amarillo, and as I recall it was a propeller airplane from Dallas because when I got to the Amarillo Texas airport, which back then was a B-52 sack base of the way it's still the longest, widest runway in the USA actually in Amarillo Texas because they flew B-52s and it was a backup landing site for the space shuttle but we landed there and.
Speaker 2:I found my way to home and dinner and see my family again. It was a good day.
Speaker 1:So I mean, you tell it so nonchalantly and maybe that's how it is, because I guess when we hear, we see stuff, we hear about the stories of how bad it was for several people coming back, it seems like you got back, you hopped on another plane, went back home and just started living your life.
Speaker 2:I did. In fact, the next day my dad and I went and bought me a new Oldsmobile 442 hot rod car, four on the floor and a hot rod. And that was what a lot of Vietnam vets saved their money because, remember, we're making combat pay, paratrooper pay, jump pay. So I was nailing down about $350 a month, so I was rolling in money and most of us saved up $2,000, $3,000. So I bought that new car and that's where life really began For me.
Speaker 1:How so.
Speaker 2:After leaving Albuquerque joining the Army, I knew what I didn't want to do, because the Army had offered to re-up me and send me to Germany. I said no, thank you, I'll be in Fort Hood Texas, if you need me. And so I said I'm not going to Germany and I'll be in Amarillo.
Speaker 2:So about three or four weeks later they sent me orders for Fort Hood, Texas, and I spent the last three or four months and then I got out like two months early to go to college. So I knew that was a smart thing to do. My dad had tried to, mom and dad had tried to send me to college back in Albuquerque after high school, but I only made it for six weeks. I found out that you actually had to go to class and I chose not to, and they chose to ask me to leave the University of New Mexico. So I was a Lobo for just a short period before I joined the Army. But two really good things happened. I got to Dallas, Texas, from Amarillo to see my sister. She hooked me up with a blind date for the woman who's right over here in our living room, who I met about six days after I was home from Vietnam, and we've been married 55 years now.
Speaker 1:Wow, well, congratulations on that. That's a very, very impressive thing that you don't hear about too often.
Speaker 2:Well, that you know. I said two things. The 442 Ovenmobile was one thing, but the much better thing that lasted a lot longer was Phyllis.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. You, just six days afterwards, you got set up on a blind date.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my sister. She lived here as opposed to being in Amarillo with the rest of the family, and so it was a really good thing and I spent about three months down Fort Hood, Texas, driving back and forth to date her and six months later we were married and got a couple of wonderful kids now and five grandkids. So all of that worked good. She gave me a reason to change my outlook on life. I decided pumping gas at 17 cents a gallon in a gas station probably wasn't a good career. So thanks to her, I stayed in college at the University of Texas at Arlington for three and a half years and graduated, Got a job and worked for Xerox for 34 years and retired at age 60 and living in a good life here now. But if it wasn't for her capturing me and me capturing her there in the summer of 1967, life would not have been as good.
Speaker 1:And that's really powerful. And you said that, giving you a reason and a different outlook. I know you said just pumping gas for 17 cents an hour.
Speaker 2:No 17 cents a gallon.
Speaker 1:A gallon. Okay, and what was that?
Speaker 2:transition.
Speaker 1:That has definitely not remained the same. What outlook did you have prior to that? I know that that was quite some time ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. I don't guess I had an outlook. What's a guy going to do? He's not doing war anymore, he's not educated, he's 21 years old. I turned 22 during that time, just before we married, I turned 22. And I had no plan but Going to college and deciding I wanted to be More like my dad, I guess a taxpayer, a father, a grandfather, a successful person. That that's something to shoot for. And a lot of Vietnam vets Weren't lucky. They didn't have that.
Speaker 2:In the other movies you see With whoever, all the other movies about guys who come back and Don't behave right, don't go to college or don't get a job or Well it's, it's a, it's kind of a, an odd thing, but it gives you a purpose For life. You know, because I was raised correctly. My mom and dad get a, did a really good job of raising me, but I lost track there somewhere Before I joined the army and the army gave me discipline, give them that and it gave me A chance to see hey, maybe I could go to college, because before the one try I did didn't last the 6 weeks, so College was and getting married and Then 3 years later we started having children and it was all good and A lot of that just kind of happens. I'm not pretending I planned it that way, but it's a really good thing that it happened.
Speaker 1:So and I know you said you didn't plan it yet it was a really good thing, and I know you referenced to a lot of people that came back from Vietnam didn't have that purpose. Why do you think it is that that some people find it and some people don't find it or didn't find it back then?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if I had the answer to that, I could write a book Like a lot of money but I think Somewhere along the way you have to have someone in your life that helps you Get direction. And even though my folks Were glad for me to come back, they had asked me to leave their house Before that Because I was not An upright citizen back in 62, 63. After high school, and they chose to escort me out of the house and pack my bags for me. I didn't even get a suitcase, but I realized later in life.
Speaker 2:It hurt my mom more to run me off, but it's exactly what I deserve. And maybe the answer is the other guys that I was hanging out with an Albuquerque. One of them became a Special forces guy in Vietnam same time I was and I spoke at his funeral just about a year ago. Agent Orange killed him. It just took 55 years to kill him. Agent Orange was what they sprayed on us over there and they're paying for it now, but it gave him Parkinson's and the good news is it took Parkinson's about 10 or 12 years to kill him. And one of the other guys who still alive. He didn't go to war but he was Went in the Air Force. He was smarter than us. He went to the Air Force and he he was a mechanic for how to Fix the ejection seats and airplanes, so if the pilot had to eject, he knew how to make sure that was working properly so they would throw him out of the airplane correctly. And One of the guys Didn't go to the military at all because he had asthma and I spoke at his funeral to actually about five years ago, but he just had an abnormal cancer, but he had a family and Well, a good life and two kids and successful and the
Speaker 2:other guy. The last one Was a drug addict, basically, and he died after about Doing drugs that right there in Albuquerque. So I think it's luck of the draw. You know, you're either. Maybe you're lucky and you have rich Family. You picked your mom and dad. Well, my folks were not rich, but they were. They had four of us kids and my dad worked for Phillips petroleum for 44 years and he lived to be 88 and I'm 78 now. So I think I'm going to beat him out of the deal.
Speaker 2:I think I'm getting more than 88 years out of, but I think, to answer your question, I think it's luck of the draw. You just hope you you hook up with somebody that gives you a good direction, and I did.
Speaker 1:Right, I love that your wife's name is Phyllis.
Speaker 1:Yes you said Phyllis. Oh well, I'm happy that she is. It was really nice to meet her as well. I know I interrupted your walk through old town To set this up, but it's I'm happy to hear that she was able to give you that purpose. It's, it's interesting to see all the similarities with even your. A lot of the stuff that you referenced and talk about with going to combat and, and I can't help but feel like so many similar things. You know, because right now we have people that get out and you hear about people struggling, people talking about that, and Do you pay much attention to that? Do you hear about all of the stuff that's going on with veterans getting out these days?
Speaker 2:You know we hadn't talked about it yet. But After college, for about 20 years, I didn't talk about the military or the army or Vietnam or any of that, nor do very many Vietnam vets. It's only been in the last 10, 12 years that I've been more involved with the veterans group. Part of that's because I went to the VA veterans hospital up in Bonham, texas, neighbor of mine. Back in I think it was 1992 he and I went to the VA hospital in Dallas. It was the last chance they said to sign up for VA Our rights or whatever our rights were at the VA hospital. So I went with him, took my DD 214 and and we went down there and said, okay, now Members of the VA, but what does that really mean? Well, we started finding out that it doesn't mean much if you have. In my case, I worked for Xerox and I had good medical care insurance, so I didn't need the VA for anything.
Speaker 2:But as I got older I suddenly discovered that the government decided Agent Orange was not good for us. So I got more involved. I joined the Vietnam Veterans Association here in McKinney, texas, and became aware that Agent Orange was like my buddy in Albuquerque. I told you I spoke at his funeral. It's a silent killer. So just recently I've submitted under the new PACT Act P-A-C-T. The PACT Act says the veteran can submit a request for disability under the PACT Act online.
Speaker 2:And so I did that about a month ago for two problems hypertension and colon cancer. And they said oh, you're right, agent Orange is presumed to have caused that, but medication takes care of that and you're not, it's not killing you right now. It'll probably kill you later, but not right now. So they said well, we'll say that we caused it with the Agent Orange, but you get zero disability and that's okay because I don't need their money. But it's good that they acknowledge that if I was to die of colon cancer or hypertension, then my wife Phyllis would be approved for about 1,800 a month for the rest of her life. So that's the advantage, that's the payoff, I guess. And now I have submitted one for skin cancer, which is, oddly enough, not one of the ones that's approved for Agent Orange being caused. That's what they sprayed on.
Speaker 2:But if you get other kinds of cancer, like colon cancer and all it does, and prostate cancer the same thing. So they're doing a better job, I think, in getting more Vietnam vets involved and working with the VA. I've taken two or three of my buddies up there neighbors, and got them signed up. Some of them embraced it. But you have to learn to play the game, the process. You have to do it their way, and I do. I've been going to the one in Bonham, texas, every year for about 12, 13 years for an annual checkup to maintain my Agent Orange status. So they're doing a better job, but it took them probably too many years to figure that out that they were. And now in Afghanistan and Iraq it's the same thing for the burn pits. This whole PACTAC is taking care of the Afghan and Iraq veterans that may have been injured by the burn pits the silent killers I think they call them.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'm happy to hear that you were about to go get signed up for it. I hate that it took so long and part of me doesn't like that they haven't that they're making you wait for it. I am happy that you're able to get it signed up.
Speaker 2:Well, you know that's not a terrible thing because a lot of people have colon cancer or cancer spots in your once you get old like me after age 50, you go to get a colon usk beer year or two years or five years and they have little polyps on them. But when they have something called squamish, the result is a squamish cancer, then it qualifies as an age and orange caused cancer spot. But they cut it off and it's really no problem right now. But they can come back, that's the issue.
Speaker 2:It might eventually get you, but you don't really know. And the same thing with prostate cancer and Parkinson's. You don't really know if the age and orange caused it, but at least they're saying now that it does. And in fact I had a neighbor just last month that passed away. He was in Vietnam the same time I was and he had I think his primary was colon cancer, but he had PTSD and other things too, so he was 100% disabled, which in Texas that's a big deal, because you don't pay property tax then. So that's something.
Speaker 1:So earlier you mentioned that you got out and that it was pretty common for your generation after getting out, that you do spend 20 years never talking about the time in the military or your time of service. Why do you think it was? Why did you not talk about it for 20 years?
Speaker 2:I think there's still a lot of. Even in the 70s, after the war ended 75 basically, when we escaped from Saigon on the roof of the embassy there's still a lot of feeling that soldiers there it wasn't that we lost a war, it was that you never should have been there. And the liberals, I don't think, understand that we weren't there because we wanted to go over there, we were just doing our job. So I don't know, wasn't necessary to talk about it. I do recall, even at Xerox for 34 years, when somebody would say this is a bad thing that's happening at Xerox and this meeting or this event's happening, my common words were oh hell, I've been shot at, that doesn't worry me. So I think part of it's the attitude that you could take that says this is not a big deal, that's happening at Xerox, whatever it is or any other little catastrophe. I've had people shooting at me. So this is going to be easy, getting over this other easy stuff. So I think that's the coping mechanism.
Speaker 2:I used In Vietnam, one of the phrases that you heard in a lot of those Vietnam movies ain't no big deal, ain't no thing. I don't know if you guys in Afghanistan and Iraq said that a lot, but I have buddies who have sons who are over there. There's something similar, I guess, but maybe not those exact words. It don't mean nothing.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I just really appreciate your ability to take that approach to it. Did you struggle with? Because you spent 20 years not talking about it? Maybe because it wasn't as accepted back then? One thing I see as common now is a lot of veterans talk about how they get out and they struggle to get back in and integrate back with civilians and there seems to be this barrier there. Did you have that or do you feel like that was common for veterans back then?
Speaker 2:You know the three and a half years I was at college at the University of Texas at Arlington. I never talked about my military experience because it wasn't going to gain me anything and there's still a lot of protesting in the streets and all that business. So I just put it in the back pocket and didn't mess with it For about six months. I was a bartender during that time in college at the VFW Club in Irving, texas, working at night, which Phyllis didn't appreciate very much being the bartender down there. But the veterans there were typically Korean War and World War II veterans and I was okay with it because I was serving them beer and liquor, you know. But I think that we just weren't. We had no parades, as you recall. We weren't welcomed home.
Speaker 2:I think the real change happened when, after Iraq and Afghanistan and the parades that were all over our country. That was a good thing because it made the citizens in this country realize that those guys are just over there doing their jobs US Army, marines, air Force, whatever they are no-transcript. You can't deny them their parade. You shouldn't deny them their parade Because they did their jobs. They might have lost the war, which you could debate, but we were prevented from winning our war. But the truth is, in Vietnam, you weren't going to win a long-term civil war, and I think we learned that in Afghanistan too. Those tribal communities in those countries, particularly Afghanistan and Iraq, were tribal civil wars and they're actually going to be back in power, and that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1:I think that and you mentioned something as you were talking about it how you were, you didn't understand the politics of it, you were just doing your job in the military. And I think that when I was returning back, I did the initial invasion in Iraq in 03. And I remember my flight back. We stopped in Germany and then we took a flight from Germany into Baltimore and I remember I was so nervous flying back in. I remember just kept thinking I don't need a parade, but if somebody spits on me I'm going to lose my mind.
Speaker 1:You don't have to thank me, but because I just felt like I was as a troop on the ground, it was just that You're just doing wherever you're going, wherever you're getting sent, is just doing your job. And I think that is one thing that a lot of our society did learn from your war going into ours, because I even had I've talked to several liberals that just said it wasn't the troops, and I think that was the one thing that I was very appreciative of that they were able to actually learn and grow from that in our society. So I hated that you guys had to deal with that.
Speaker 2:Well, and other things changed too. For 10 or 12 years ago, even at my grandkids elementary school, they had a veterans day, four veterans day, and I would go there with all three of my grandkids here in this area and I had two more out in Tennessee that we couldn't get to for that but the three here in McKinney, texas, all went to the same elementary school and every year they have a veterans day parade and about 50 or 60 of us veterans all kinds Vietnam, iraq, afghanistan would come to the school and have a little parade and the kids would all wave flags and it was appreciated because that was our parade and better late than never.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm very happy that you got one, because it was. I was wondering what it was like to be coming back from Vietnam. Just because of all the stuff that you hear about it. I see so many similarities in your time of service and just the stories that you share about being in the military. It's interesting. Do you think it's any different? Because it seems like right now, this day and age, that a lot of our generations veterans struggle just in general. Do you feel that's gone up or do you feel it's similar to when you got out of Vietnam or got out of the military?
Speaker 2:Well, we don't seem to be in a war right now. However, I read the other day we got 700 troops over in Syria trying to kill bad guys, so I know they're still happening.
Speaker 2:And I got a friend whose son was a Delta Force operator. I know there's still stuff going on, but most citizens don't want to hear about that. Most citizens want to hear about the price of gas, the price of groceries, and that's why the volunteer army versus an inscripted army. You know, I came up with a theory. I don't know if I'm right or not, but it's a good discussion. Well, we did not win Korea, it's a stalemate. We did not win Vietnam. We withdrew and turned it over to the South Vietnamese, et cetera, et cetera. And I got to thinking my dad was in the Philippines and Phyllis's dad was in Europe.
Speaker 2:In World War II. Those soldiers didn't get to come home until they won the war. Think about that a minute. They didn't get to come home after one year. They had to win the war to come home. That's a real good incentive to win the war, to get to come home, and I don't know that that's repeatable in today's world. But of course I believe that all the future wars will be handled differently anyway, with drones. And there's a bunch of Air Force guys I met at the snow skiing two years ago at the Taos New Mexico ski area and these guys are from Los Cruces, new Mexico. There's an Air Force base out there and these guys are running drones and dropping bombs in a wartime situation from drones and their Air Force pilots, if you will, and I'm not sure that's the right way to do a war, but at least it takes the human loss out of it.
Speaker 2:Remember those guys in World War II didn't get to come home until they won the war.
Speaker 1:Right, and this prevents them from having to go step into the actual war zone. However, it just hit me too that that would make you know, if we never do that, then the war. Instead of going to another country, that would probably bring the wars closer to home. So instead of watching it on TV, it's probably across the way.
Speaker 2:Boy, a drone can reach Tucson, Arizona or wherever. Yeah Right, that's scary stuff.
Speaker 1:It is, man. I really appreciate you jumping on and sharing your story and just knowing that you've, I'd love to hear about your life and everything that you've been able to do and accomplish and knowing that this is put this up for veterans to help them transition to you know, hear other people's stories to learn from. What advice would you give as we close this up? What advice would you give to any veterans that are getting out right now? What would you tell them?
Speaker 2:I would. I'd recommend any veteran in particular to hang out with the right kind of people. If that's not your family, go find some people to hang out with, whether it's a military group, vfw, vietnam veterans, guys at the coffee shop. Stay busy, don't let. Don't let what happened that one year or two years of your life determine how you're going to behave in the next five years of your life. Find someone to care about, whether it's a wife or a significant other or friends, or, and stay busy.
Speaker 2:As you saw what I sent you the other day, I've got some backpacking buddies and we've been backpacking in the Rocky Mountains, taking a 120 mile canoe ride down the Yukon River. Every September we go somewhere and we do an adventure, some of which almost killed us, but that's okay. We took a river raft from Moab to Lake Powell, utah, climbed to the top of five states Kingspeak in Utah, mount Whitney in California, mount Hood. This group of guys the two moons hiking club is, and I know about it because I'm the trail boss. I plan the trips. So get involved in something, whether it's a library or hiking trips or canoeing or whatever floats your boat. Stay involved and get out of yourself. Get out there with others and have some friends, have some associates. If you're lucky, you get married to a good woman, like I did, and have a couple of kids and five grandkids, and that's really important because the grandkids get to pick your nursing home.
Speaker 1:What do you mean? And I think I know. But I love how you frame this up community and staying busy, but then you mentioned to get out of yourself what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:If you just stay thinking about for me, here's what I did. I've got Agent Orange or I've got this or that, and I don't pretend to know what PTSD is. I may have it and not know it, but you can't let that control the rest of your life or it'll take your life. And I'm not educated enough to know how to get rid of it. But I do know that medication is not the answer and that's what the VA gives you for that crap. They give you medication. So I don't know if it's counseling or therapy or what the answer is, but there's educated people that can hopefully help without medication.
Speaker 1:I. You said there's other people educated on it. I don't think there's anybody more educated on it than than yourself, having done what you've did in the military and Having lived this, this amazing life that you have, knowing that that anybody that's been overseas, anybody that was in the military these days, definitely have nobody that I know has done anything to the caliber of what you've done in the military. And so I Take everything that you say very heavily and I think it's Words of wisdom, to get out of yourself and Don't let it take your life, because it will.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I appreciate your Podcast, all the things you do to get the word out. I've watched three or four of them now. There's some good stuff there. I'll particularly like Social awareness of the woman you had about we didn't have the right armor for women, mm-hmm, I mean I never would have thought about that because we had no women in Vietnam other than nurses.
Speaker 2:Yep and a couple of reporters, and so the world, the world has changed and you know she, she was a real pioneer to figure out women need different kind of clothing or armored for various reasons which I can't really discuss now. That that's important stuff, because if they're gonna be there they need to be protected hmm, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I love that you were able to check that out. And then she is an incredible woman. I'd love to see what she's done and I I appreciated. The one thing that I've Learned that I didn't know that I was gonna appreciate so much about being able to jump in and and host this podcast was how much I love getting to learn from other people like her and like yourself. It's been Something that that keeps me very, very excited about the next conversation and the next person I get to know.
Speaker 2:so Well, and next time I'm in Fort Collins, my wife which, seeing my granddaughter graduate, I presume in two more years Contacting we can go downtown and have a cup of coffee, and if you want to go climb Longs Peak, we're Rocky Mountain National Park. I'm up for that too.
Speaker 1:I will take you up on that and Definitely definitely go with you at very least to get the cup of coffee, and if you're up for Longs Peak, let's make it happen. I just did that one a couple weeks ago and and it's a good one.
Speaker 2:I was at 11,900 feet About two weeks ago in the Lizard head wilderness south of telluride. But the weather turned bad. We got rained off the damn mountain. So we headed back to the car and went to National Monument down in New Mexico and got warm.
Speaker 1:Hmm, well, and for those that that don't don't know, because I have the visual of SL, sent me a picture A week ago to check in about this and he was like hey, just finished up this rock climbing trip and I had to stop and show my wife this picture because it's him on this side of this mountain with a buddy like roped in. So it's when he says climbing, they were doing some legitimate rock climbing up the side of his mountain is very, very impressive.
Speaker 2:It's called. They call that via for redder. There's via for redder there and tell you, rad, there's a via for redder challenge course in Ure. And so Spend a couple hundred dollars and and you're hooked in with cables and hooks, which spent about four hours on the mountain and you got pretty good tow holes so you got to be able to lift your own weight, which was a challenge, but we got it done. And yeah it's. But if you're afraid of heights, it's a thousand foot drop, so you don't want anything to do with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very impressive that that you're able to and and please, definitely let me know the next time you're in four columns I'd love to grab a cup of coffee with the end. Know that you probably saw, when we met the first time, my two kids running in the background. So, yeah, you'll probably get to meet them the next time that you guys come to town. Yeah, I look forward to it. All right, so thank you so much for taking some time today.
Speaker 2:It's time for a bowling now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, sir, always staying busy just as practicing what you preach. I love it. Amen let's talk to you today. You too.