Imagine, you've seen the world, fought wars, studied international relations, and yet, your toughest battle is the one within. This episode, we tackle the rarely discussed topic of mental health within the military. Our guest, a retired veteran, is candid about his personal journey of recovery, offering us a glimpse into a world that often goes unseen. We discuss the importance of open communication, therapy options, and the need to normalize mental health discussions, especially in the military.
Finally, we lace up our shoes and delve into the world of marathons. Our guest shares his experiences training and the role of setting new goals in healing and recovery. We also touch upon the importance of physical health in improving mental well-being. By the end of this episode, you'll be left with a nuanced understanding of the military, mental health, and the power of physical wellness. It's an episode you don't want to miss!
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Imagine, you've seen the world, fought wars, studied international relations, and yet, your toughest battle is the one within. This episode, we tackle the rarely discussed topic of mental health within the military. Our guest, a retired veteran, is candid about his personal journey of recovery, offering us a glimpse into a world that often goes unseen. We discuss the importance of open communication, therapy options, and the need to normalize mental health discussions, especially in the military.
Finally, we lace up our shoes and delve into the world of marathons. Our guest shares his experiences training and the role of setting new goals in healing and recovery. We also touch upon the importance of physical health in improving mental well-being. By the end of this episode, you'll be left with a nuanced understanding of the military, mental health, and the power of physical wellness. It's an episode you don't want to miss!
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Welcome to another episode. I'm here today with Dave Snell, a retired Lieutenant Commander from the Navy. How are you doing, dave?
Dave Snell:Doing great. Thank you, Sam. Pleasure to be here.
Thad David:Dave, I'm. It is an honor to have you on. I've heard your story, I've listened to some of it and just from getting to know you, I'm really, really excited to unpack it and just to learn from you. I've been very anxious to jump into this. Yeah, if you could, just Very much, well, thank you. Thank you for doing everything that you're currently doing to help veterans. It's pretty amazing stuff. Just to give everybody some insight into you, what did your military careers look like? What did you do in the military.
Dave Snell:Yeah, I went to the ROTC program at Georgia Tech and commissioned out of there in June of 1995. I was a surface warfare officer. I knew that I was always going to be a cryptologist and after a sea tour I became a cryptologist. I did a tour at Fort Corden, georgia. It was my first introduction to joint work very early in my career. I ended up back at sea again one more time, which led to some post-traumatic stress issues which sent me back to the cryptologic community with a couple of tours at the National Security Agency, where I deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq supporting special operations community in particular. And then it led to six years out in the Pacific with special operations command, pacific and the Pacific Fleet, studying China, and then back here to Norfolk, virginia, where I retired in 2015 as the director of special technical operations. So I've had a varied career with a lot of different opportunities. It was a very exciting time.
Thad David:Yeah, it sounds like a very exciting time. What did you do and how was it in that six-year period? That peaked my interest when you said studying China for six years. What was that like? Just that whole experience?
Dave Snell:It was very interesting. We were at a different time. This is 2006 to 2012. So we were very heavy into Iraq, afghanistan, the Surges, so it was really getting a little less, or not even a little. It was getting a lot less attention. So we were trying to shape the battlefield at the time without a lot of attention from Washington DC, and gave me a great opportunity to understand how China operates and predict where they were going to be going and where they've come. Now we're talking 10 years after I left there, 11 years later. Now, caveat that when I was at SOC PAC, we were terrorism focused but we always had a support mission for China. So I've kept my year to the ground on China for a very long time and frankly I have to be quite honest, I've been studying China since universities, since Georgia Tech, so for over 25 years now I've in some way been looking at China.
Thad David:Is that what led you in the military to end up over in that region, because you had been studying it so long?
Dave Snell:Actually no. So my dad was a cryptologist. Long story short is, my dad went to Georgia Tech. Same ROTC unit, same secretary was there when my freshman year is when he graduated Ms Barbara Hale, believe it or not, I'll never forget her name. He commissioned me at Georgia Tech. He was a surface warfare officer that went to Georgia, went cryptology. So I followed in my dad's footsteps almost lockstep. And the last connection I'll make is that we both got married. We're both divorced and our second wives were both from Hawaii. So we're right on the same path with each other. And that's what got me into the Navy.
Dave Snell:Okay, third generation military. My grandfather and some of his two of his brothers were in the military World War II, my dad and his brother and then myself. Really, you know when your, when your father's a cryptologist, he's out on submarines and you can't really talk about what he's doing in general because you don't know it's classified. It kind of piqued my interest and you know I always joke, especially as we go into Veterans Day weekend here. I know this will be presented later, but it really wasn't service, because I was having so much fun because I saw what my dad was doing and it's just really, you know a lot of, a lot of excitement, you know, to go do the job.
Thad David:Oh yeah, it's a ton of excitement. It sounds like it was a blast for you to be able to do that, and I'd imagine it had to be a unique feeling to just kind of peel back that you know, just as a kid, not knowing what he was doing, and then, as you're following in his footsteps, to kind of see a little bit about what that life looked like.
Dave Snell:It's really funny because I got so. By the time I got in we were in Iraq, afghanistan. I didn't get to go on the submarines like he did, but I was right into some of the same programs that he was and I didn't know his exact missions. But it gave me an insight into what he was doing, how he was doing it. And there's a book that came out in 1998, and I was going to cryptology school called why Man's Bluff, and it's about the submarine Cold War efforts that we had against the Soviets. And he read it and he calls me up. He's like, yeah, I found out I have a new award that I didn't know I got for a mission that's in the book and I'm like, oh, let me go find it.
Dave Snell:Wow, you know, it was really really a good parallel in our lives to be able to understand what he did. And he understood what I was doing when I would go to the desert, while he didn't know the details. He looked at me one time was about to go to Iraq and he said, oh, I know where you're going and I know what you're, who you're working for, and I was like, well, yeah, how do you know that? He said, well, the address you gave me is in the news and I was like no, it's not, it's it's, but really it was. It was Task Force X, battalion Y, which was the task force we were really in, and it was all over the news, right, but it was one of those units that we're not supposed to talk about. Got it?
Dave Snell:He knew exactly who we were going after. In fact he, he called me, or he texted me, rather, june, june of 2006, and told me I bet you you're pretty happy right now, and I hadn't even. I was in Hawaii. Now, six hours behind him, and he tells me that Abu Musaib al-Zarkawi was killed and I said, well, how do you know that I was looking for him? He goes, dave, come on, we went through this Task Force thing before he knew. I knew who we were hunting and I remember waking up that morning. It was five o'clock, I got the text and I had a beer. It was a Friday morning and I went into work. Never forget that.
Thad David:Yeah, that's really really cool that you were able to share that with him. I'm sure that he absolutely loved it and, from his side, kind of getting to relive some of what he did as well, and that's a special thing. And he said something earlier that piqued my interest and I know we can't go too deep into the weeds with it for probably more than one reason, but I'm curious. You said you were mentioned earlier that you were predicting, that you'll try to predict what China was doing, and that was, you know, 10 years ago.
Thad David:And without getting to or more detailed than you want to, how accurate were your predictions? You know, as you know, that that's in the past.
Dave Snell:Well, I was classified about what we were thinking. I mean, we're seeing. I mean, if you look at the 2008 Beijing Olympics, we knew that they were a new world power. You know there was their coming out party. We predicted then they were going to grow exponentially. We knew and it was in the news. It wasn't even. There's some I guess there are some predictions I won't get into, obviously but you know, we knew that this was where they were going. We knew the islands were going to be built in the South China Sea. We knew they were going to militarize them. We could see all these things happening at multiple levels, but even in the press it was almost blatant. The Chinese Communist Party is a different animal altogether. It's similar to the Soviets, but they have much more organized and I think, personally, professionally, I think it's a much more nefarious purpose in their intent than the Soviets ever were. You know, for their time.
Thad David:And that's a bold statement considering what's going on right now. You're saying that they're much more nefarious, so I mean that sounds like it has a lot of potential to our future. Will be very interesting with China.
Dave Snell:Yeah, I think I have. I didn't know we're going to go down this path. It's great, don't get me wrong. I love it. You know, I like, if you know, a lot of the books behind me are historical. I'm very, I consider myself an amateur historian.
Dave Snell:If you look at the way World War this is something we were joking. I was a contractor for a little bit till earlier this year and Manchuria was really the start of World War II, the Japanese invading China. And if you look at parallels, we were saying that well, instead of you know, and our bigger threat from our perspective was in the West and in Nazi Germany and the Soviets to a lesser degree because we saw them, you know, joining hands for a little bit in the late 30s. Well, if we look at Georgia today or Ukraine today, it's just a reverse China is our number one threat, not Nazi Germany. So are we starting to see, you know, especially with Israel and Iran being a proxy for you know, using proxies in that effort, are we starting to see parallels into history that we're heading down another path Now with China?
Dave Snell:Their best bet is to not go to war but to do it through what we call irregular warfare. You know methodologies. You know not having to go to war. Sun Tzuyan thinking. Just like with Taiwan, their best bet is not to fight but to subdue them through other methods. Why is China's best bet to not go to war?
Dave Snell:Well, they can do it through a way that doesn't look aggressive outright, without killing anybody, creating a negative perception of them in the populace. Hey, we just got to. You know, we got to absorb. We joined them willingly, taiwan in particular, I'm thinking. Got it and they can maintain their military balance in their favor. They don't lose anybody. That makes a lot of sense.
Thad David:I appreciate you sharing some of your wisdom with us. I don't know, but just some thoughts that you know I'm not.
Dave Snell:There are guys who are looking at this. I got some friends up in the Pentagon who are looking at this every single day. I'm just throwing my little two bits to them and they're just like. You know I'm not my little two bits to them and they're not throwing me out the window. You know saying I'm crazy, but at the same time I'm not on the inside anymore either.
Thad David:I just started this interesting book and it goes through because everybody's looking for what's going to change and what's the next big change. What's the next big thing in this book that just came out a few days ago and I'm thoroughly enjoying it it's called Same as Ever. And it goes through, what doesn't change, what will never change from it.
Thad David:It was the same 500 years ago, same as today and 500 years it'll be the same and I love how you brought up history, because that's what they do in this book is like what are the comparables that this leads to? This leads to this, and that's going to happen every time and that's what's never going to change, and so I really appreciate how you shared, you know, the basis for your knowledge.
Dave Snell:Yeah, I mean, if you also look at China, they're very much about changing the dynamic of the world order. They're usurping what you know, the Washington paper I think it was a Washington paper, not the Washington conference. Anyway, there's a Bretton Woods. I'm mixing things up in my head, I apologize. You know how we established the new world order after World War II, that the US dollar in the West and how we would control economics markets. You know culture. They're trying to turn that on its head and they've been outright about it. And if you go back to the 1920s still trying to find the exact time he said it. But Mao even said the goal of this Chinese Communist Party is to overtake the United States as the future power, and it was 20s or 30s he said that. So if you look at a lot of people say that Xi Jinping is anything but Mao Zedong and has reason to hate Mao. Mao he's, he's a, he's a mini Mao.
Thad David:A mini Mao.
Dave Snell:You quote me on that one.
Thad David:Yeah, no, that's that's. It makes perfect sense and it's such an interesting thing to think about. But at its core, and if you think about just the way that the world is, it would be weird if they weren't. You know, if we were in China, we would want a better, stronger nation, and so, while I don't support China in any way whatsoever, it's just kind of it's not a far-fetched statement what you're saying. So I know that I discovered you just from hearing your story and I appreciate you sharing a little bit of what you did in the military and your knowledge. It's fascinating to me. I think we could do a whole nother recording in that direction. And the reason I wanted to talk to you and just bring you on because you've you've got a pretty amazing story about recovery after the military and would you mind sharing just whatever you're willing to share? What did that look like? What got you started down that journey and brought you to where you are now with it?
Dave Snell:Yeah, I mean, I'll go back to the roots and I'll bring us up to today if you don't mind. Okay, please. So I'm very open about this. I dealt with emotional, physical, verbal, some other abuses as a child and what I call little tea traumas. When we think of post-traumatic stress, we think of that. You know, war, the battle, or even in the civilian world. You know, you see an accident, you see somebody murdered. That's a trauma, that's a big tea event that affects you and at the same time we can have micro, little tea traumas that compound on themselves. Yeah, you can have one and it'll ebb, but if you have another before that first one ebbs, it'll just compounds into a big tea and we can have a lot of emotional physical responses that are the same as if we just had one single event.
Dave Snell:So I came into the military with some baggage, no doubt. Then, on my second ship the reason I went back to cryptology, into the National Security Agency I had a captain who was just ruthless on me, you know, just would not let up on me, and at the same time I had a new spouse who didn't understand the Navy and were in Japan post-911, by the way, just after 9-11. So we're all on heightened alert, especially in Japan, against China and other terrorist organizations down in the Philippines and Thailand, malaysia and I ended up attempting suicide during my time in Japan. I got better. I deployed to the Middle East, like I mentioned earlier, with the Special Operations community, and then I retired and then I was lost. I didn't have a purpose anymore. I didn't really know what I was going about doing things. I had jobs it wasn't lack of work but I still hadn't dealt with the traumas With the military.
Dave Snell:We get help through meds oh, you're depressed, here's some pros and cons, here's some low-butture, whatever works for you and we'll give you some therapy. And the therapy is good and I don't fault anybody at all in the military for this. But their main focus is to get us back up to a point where we're quote fit to fight. And then they say, okay, we may not have resolved everything, but you're qualified to go back to sea, to go to war, to go back to mission if you will. Okay, and then it's kind of till the next time.
Dave Snell:And I had a couple of ups and downs through my career and it was the pandemic. Just before the pandemic I'd left my family. I was just depressed. I had no intention of committing suicide, but I ideated which is a big piece and I think a lot of folks go through every day. But when we get to a constant ideation it becomes very disturbing. It's not the right word, but worrisome might be a better word.
Dave Snell:I knew I would never, would again. I never will try again. I have a beautiful, you know, 15-year-old daughter who I would never in a million years want to hurt like that. So just as the pandemic was kicking off, I had a new therapist and she said stop lying to me, stop BSing me. And I said what are you talking about? She goes you're not lying outright, but you're not telling me the whole story and until you do, we're never going to get to the root, we're never going to be able to not solve, but get you beyond the trumps. I said, oh, okay, well, so we tried some new therapies that didn't quite work, but got a little bit further.
Dave Snell:You know, through my honesty and it was December 29th of 2019, again just prior to the pandemic I got on a scale and I was over 200 pounds and that was a number I said I will never get above. And I called my old skipper one of my old skippers and he had become a health coach after running a number of triathlons himself. He said I'm just too heavy, I need to lose weight. So he did. He lost 50 pounds and now he runs, you know, lots of marathons. I called him up and he got me on a weight loss program. Now it doesn't look like it now, but I was. I dropped 50 pounds, which was 20 pounds ago. I've gained 20 of it back, so I'm about the weight I was when I retired. But I look thinner, I look healthier, I'm holding it better than I was eight and a half years ago when I retired and I was step one. I got on the physical side of diet, exercise and the impacts that those have on your brain and your mood and your mentality and your depressive state or excitement.
Dave Snell:My therapist got me on a new treatment for me. Well, it's called neuro stimulation and Vegas nerve reset. She did these two things simultaneously and the nervous, the the neuro stimulation is. Our brain operates on different frequencies in different parts of our brains at different speeds. If it's going too fast, then different parts of our brain is anxious. We're anticipating the future, we're worried it's going too slow, we're depressed and after doing a brain map on the four different frequencies our brain works at, they came up with a treatment plan and said Okay, we're going to, we're going to find a way to get back to middle or as close to middle as we can.
Dave Snell:And I tell you what the first time she did that, bam, I felt better. But it took about a year worth of these treatments once, twice a week to build up a tolerance so that the speeds stayed where they should. But the real one that really got me that, I think, helped was the Vegas nerve reset and I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Vegas nerve or anybody else is, but it's the largest nerve in our body. It touches all your major organs in your body and it's the messenger to say, hey, what state are we in? Fight, flight, freeze or fawn? I think is the new. You know, I always remember fight, flight or freeze, but I guess they've added fawn, I'm sorry.
Dave Snell:Well, I'm not sure what it is, but I've read a couple of times these four. But let's go with flight, fight or flight and that's your trauma response. You know, again, go back to big T, little T's, these, these things, these events that happen. I'm not a fan of the word triggers, but when we get into certain situations our body starts to react. You know, the fight or flight starts to kick in when we see things that are similar to what we experienced to build the trauma. And what this does is it calms the Vegas nerve so that when you're in those situations again they don't have the visceral reaction, the anger or the freezing or the, you know, just inability to respond appropriately. I'll just go with that so it really calms me down and set me on a path that I could. I could be in situations that normally would give me the butterflies in your stomach, which is a Vegas nerve, you know reaction and just go Okay, look, I can deal with this.
Thad David:What? What did it? Just for, for clarity on it for anybody listening, because this is a very interesting stuff. What did the neuro stimulation and I know right now we're talking about the Vegas nerve reset and I'm going to ask the same thing about that but what is it specifically? Because I know you said it the first one. You instantly felt better and then it took about a year, which makes sense, but what is? What is that? What did they do?
Dave Snell:All they did was put a couple of electrodes right behind my ears and a couple on the back of my head and it's I always liken it to. I'm I'm sure people are familiar with the stem Easton or Sten's unit for muscle, where it just kind of shocks and the muscle kind of contracts and gets relaxed afterwards. It's the same concept, it's you know, these two, these two you know just kind of a frequency, pulsing rate that over time the brain starts to realize okay, I can calm down or I need to speed up, depending on where they've put them and what frequency they. I'm not sure the exact details. I'm not a I was a cryptologist but I'm not that technical on this.
Thad David:Yeah, no, I mean just for anybody listening might want to go check it out that it might remove some of the barriers. If they don't know what you know, yeah, it's just, I would just.
Dave Snell:The basic answer is it's like a Sten's unit or 10's unit on your muscles, but you're doing it to your brain and the vagus nerve reset is even easier. They put little I call them magnets or magnetrons of some sort little black boxes that they fit you with a felt head covering that comes down your chest and they put these on with Velcro, two on each side of your head, two on your collar bone, because that's the closest the vagus nerve comes to your surface, and then two right under your rib cage and you sit there for about 20 minutes and you just. I had a normal session of therapy with my therapist and that was it. Wow, it was an hour. Like I said, twice a week, sometimes once, depending on how bad, or I don't even want to say how bad, but how much therapy, you know how much recovery you need. It could be twice a week.
Dave Snell:You know, in my case and I don't like to compare traumas you know I'm this bad, you're this bad or I went through that. You can't be that bad. I went through worse. That's not healthy for anybody because it's any trauma any person goes through. Is that person's trauma? You and I could be in the same combat situation, but I end up with post traumatic stress and you go out and party that night. It's just our bodies, different reactions based on our experiences in the past, that affect how that particular event affects us, and I don't want to say that someone is more is worse off than I am or better than I am. They're there, they're where they are and that's where they are.
Thad David:Well, it's definitely. Then there's no prize for trying to compare it anyway. You know it's not like what's the point. You know the point is for everybody to get into a good headspace, so it really doesn't matter where you're at comparatively. And that was one thing that that struck me after getting out, because now we saw, we saw quite a bit of stuff. I did the initial invasion, iraq. I was back a year afterwards and it was interesting to see how all of our good friends, how everybody managed everything very differently. And it was that we all saw the same things but every many managed it differently. And I wonder how much of it. You mentioned the little t, big t and the compounding effects of it and it made me think of, you know, the. It's almost like a square root, like they multiply, and it's like a bunch of little t's equals equals a big interest in a bank.
Dave Snell:It's compounding. You know again, a little bit may ebb, but the next one's going to compound on top of the other one before it and that that has its effects and people don't realize them, because there's such subtle events happening in our lives that we don't realize what's going on.
Thad David:Well, and it made me think of it because I heard about it with pain, just a pain threshold, but also a trauma threshold, and the thing that gave me clarity with it was just the thought that and this is I'm going to use a positive thing to describe a negative, and so I don't want to mix those up. But if you're going to go work out, you know when I first started working out, 50 pound dumbbells, that was a lot.
Dave Snell:Yeah.
Thad David:Now 100 pounds. I'm doing incline with 100 pounds. Well, that's my a lot, whereas 50 is not even a warm up for me. And on the opposite end, if you've got a bunch of that stuff, that what seems like a lot to you, it's not a comparable thing because everybody's in a different space with it.
Dave Snell:And the goal at the end is to help us look at it. Absolutely brilliant.
Thad David:Everybody's in a different space and, again, we just want to help each other. So I thank you for sharing that. So you just went to and I would say just as because most people don't go to therapy, and so I don't want to minimize it because I think it's great that you stepped into it Is that something? If somebody was interested in exploring that neuro stimulation, the vagus nerve reset, when did you find a therapist? Where should they go? Is that a VA thing? Outside of the VA?
Dave Snell:I think it's. I think it's a. Well, how's this? You know, being a retiree, I'm on TriCare. Tricare covers it, okay.
Dave Snell:First, it's a matter of finding the right therapist who provides it, and I just happened to look into it. To be honest with you, I was seeing my therapist for about. Let me go back a step. There's another treatment which is much easier to find these days is eye movement, disassociation and reprogramming, emdr, and a lot of therapists are doing that these days. And I just lucked out with a friend of mine's.
Dave Snell:Wife was friends with this therapist back in high school, or maybe oh, you know what it was was. My friend's wife was had dated my therapist husband back in high school, so they're local to this area, they knew each other for 30 years. And she said why don't you call up Lindsay and she can help you out? And Lindsay was a miracle worker, in my opinion, because and I say that because she joked that we were going to work a miracle on my brain and get me back to normal normal whatever that is, or less traumatic responses, anyway. So I started with her in July of 19. And she happened six months later to change practices and the practice she went to happen to offer a neuro stimulation of vagus nerve reset.
Dave Snell:So you want to find I think the easiest way to sum this up is you want to find a therapist that is focused on brain function more than just therapy for talk. And the reason I'm saying it that way is because the places I've noticed that talk about neuro stimulation have brain somewhere in their, their company name, as opposed to just. I'm a licensed social worker, therapist or counselor. I really don't know how to tell somebody to go find the right people. You got to do some research to say hey, and I will say this with any therapist talk to them before you go there and ask them what kind of therapies they provide.
Dave Snell:Are they strictly a talk therapy? Are they strictly, or are they also a holistic mental health provider? The VA, I'm pretty sure, covers neuro stimulation, vagus nerve reset. I'd be surprised if they're not. It's becoming a little bit more mainstream and I did some research when I first heard about it and it was very scant. I couldn't find this four years ago and I'm seeing more people talking about it on blogs, podcasts, posts, and you can find more articles about it now, I think, than you could four or five years ago.
Thad David:I'm going to dive deep into it and really check it out. It's fascinating to think about. And I have another question. I know you just recently gave the step one that you had stepped into, and I was wondering if we could go back just slightly, because you had mentioned that you had attempted suicide and then you had bounced that thought process around. Would you be comfortable with sharing some of your mindset during that time frame?
Dave Snell:Yeah, here, let me start with this. I'm open to talking about just about anything.
Thad David:Okay.
Dave Snell:And to anybody who's listening afterwards. We can share how to get in touch with me. I'm open to talking to anybody, and my goal and my why, my meaning, which we can get into later also is helping people understand that there is life beyond these thoughts, beyond the depression, to beyond the anxiety, to beyond the traumas. There is life, there is a way to get beyond it. Yeah, I attempted suicide on April 18th of 2020, or, sorry, of 2002, mixing up my numbers, I apologize and I had this plan that I was going to take a number of pills just before I got on a plane back to the States from Japan and I was just going to fall asleep and nobody would know until they landed in LA.
Dave Snell:I felt worthless. I wasn't able to get anything right at home. I wasn't able to do anything right at work. People were just on my back about everything. I was about to get divorced. I felt like I wasn't worthy. There was no other way out from this. At the time, it felt like it was the right answer. Now it was definitely would have been the long-term solution to a short-term problem. Lots of people go through divorce. Lots of people have trouble at work. There are ways out. Again, like I said, there is a life beyond the traumas, the depression.
Thad David:The reason that I really appreciate you being so open to sharing and I just wanted to make sure that, as we dive into this, everybody listening knows that you're very open to sharing, because anytime, especially when a suicide hits close to home with a veteran, that it's a common thing. I usually, if somebody reaches out and I just start talking to them, the number one question that they ask is why didn't they say something? I wonder, why didn't they say something Just knowing that you were there in those shoes? That was the one question I would just curious to know. Have you thought about that? Why not reach out? Maybe you did. Did you reach out for help? If not, why?
Dave Snell:Why did you not? Let me go back? Two months before April 18th I had started seeing a therapist. My wife at the time, my first wife we started seeing a counselor together, which was really silly because we had just been married for eight months but we had a lot of stressors put on us very early in our marriage. Then a therapist suggested I go on Prozac and that I had to tell my skipper of the ship. Hey, you need to tell him that you're on Prozac because you're a tactical action officer in combat. I would have weapons release authority. So the docs said you need to tell him so he's aware at least so he can keep an eye on you. So I went and I told him and his first response was pardon my language, I'm just going to be frank with what he said was oh, does this mean you're going to go walking all happy and shit around my ship? It was just this disconnected, inhuman, not inhuman, inhumane maybe response to someone in trouble, someone in distress. So I said okay, you're a jackass, whatever, I'm just going to go about my life and I'll get better on this.
Dave Snell:The next underway was the worst and we pulled into Busan, south Korea, went to some meetings, went and had dinner with the South Koreans and drinks, and the next day I had the duty, which meant that I had to carry the 9mm as a command duty officer. And I remember, sitting in my state room, I had put the gun on my desk. I was just staring off in the distance and I told myself it was time to pull the trigger. Now I don't remember, I've blocked. Was the gun in my head? Was the gun in my mouth? Was the gun in my chest? Did I, you know, finger on the trigger or not? I don't remember and I don't think it's important for me to try to remember. The problem or the point was that I got to a point where I said, well, wait a minute, I don't know much about guns. Be honest with you. I fired them, I can shoot them very well. I don't own any yet, but I'm not a caliber guy. I just remember hearing stories of 9mm going through different types of material and I said, well, what if the bullet goes through me and through the wall and hurt somebody on the other side? And that stopped. I didn't want to hurt anybody else, physically, at least, through my attempt. Okay, I called the doc, who was aware I was on the meds knew I was depressed and I said, doc, get this gun away from me, get me off this ship. And he sent me home.
Dave Snell:I flew home to Japan from Busan and I got the treatment I needed. Unfortunately, it led to the April 18th event where I did attempt. Now, all that to be said, bring back to your question why don't people ask, why didn't you reach out? Well, let me add to the April 18th story was, for some reason I started the pills early. I was planning on waiting until I got to the plane, just before the plane, to start taking them. I took them before I even left Yacowska and I got a cell phone call from my office at Deseron 15. I said, hey, we need you to come in for a minute, whatever it was.
Dave Snell:And I remember my buddy, jeff, who had also left my ship under mental health concerns as well. It was a very, very bad environment on that ship at the time. And he looked at me and he goes you've had a road soda, haven't you? I was like, yeah, I've had a road soda, a beer. I had them with beer. And it was 10 o'clock in the morning and the next day when I saw Jeff after I got out of the hospital he said I had no idea you'd even tried. I never even would have suspected you would try.
Dave Snell:And then the questions go why didn't you come to me? Why don't you talk to me? Why don't you do this? And the point is, when you're at that point where there is no other way, you've shut down or at least in my experience my attempt and, having talked to several others who have attempted, you don't want to hear what they have to say, you don't think you can go to them and you've already put in a process in your mind. This is going to happen and if I don't, then it's a failure. And you don't want to fail again, because sometimes that's what's led you to where you are.
Dave Snell:I felt I had failed as a husband, as a department head on the ship. So why would I go to talk to somebody about it? I wanted to get away from the problem, not to address the problem, and it is what it is today. I can't change the fact. I can only talk about it and try to help others. It's not easy to talk about, it's not fun to talk about, and I think that's part of the problem that we have in the nation we need to talk about. I don't like. Well, we can't talk about it because someone might have an idea from what you talk about. No, that's the problem. We are not talking about it, we're not addressing it, and I think what we end up doing is why didn't you come talk to me, dave? Well, I kind of felt like.
Dave Snell:I feel like at this point we were blaming them. Well, had you come to me, you never would have been there. Well, let's reverse that. Why are you know and we do this every month or so, or every couple, you know, every mental health awareness month. Reach out to your friends, talk to them, say hi, we lose connection and then we wonder why they don't talk to you when they go attempt suicide, and we put it on them, the suicide. You know the person who took their life. It's not on them to come to you. Sometimes we need to go both ways. I'm getting a little deep there, I'm sorry.
Thad David:No, I very much appreciate you going deep with it. That was my intent with asking Well, I get a little aggressive with you know it's not.
Dave Snell:let's stop blaming the person who attempted and start looking internal of why didn't I reach out to them more. If I say I care about them, why aren't we reaching out? Hmm, what.
Thad David:And then to take it one level deeper with that too, because there's the other side of that as well, because that person that I'll end up talking to usually feels horrible, because they feel like they are to be blamed.
Dave Snell:Yeah.
Thad David:Because they didn't reach out. What thoughts do you have about that person that then feels the? I'm thinking of an instant just recently where it was in a very similar light, where somebody was literally just with that person and 10 minutes later the person committed suicide and then it was really weighing on them.
Dave Snell:Yeah.
Thad David:And so what thoughts do you have about that guilt that happens afterwards for the other person?
Dave Snell:For the person who survived. Even Let me break down what you just said too. If let's say, you and I talk and then 10 minutes later I go and attempt suicide or kill myself and I don't like commit suicide because it's more legalese in there and it's negative connotation let's say I take my life here, 10 minutes after this, at that point in my mind I've already made my decision. Nothing you're going to say is going to change it. So to me the guilt it's not, it's that's a tough one. That and I'm sorry for the pauses and the Please take your time.
Dave Snell:I've lost guys to suicide and I've said why didn't they talk to me? And I've had to come to the harsh realization that nothing I would have done could have changed it. And I can't dwell on it. And what I've learned in the last four years is something I just posted on LinkedIn, someone else's post. I can only live into now. I can't let regrets weigh me down day to day and, yes, I miss my brothers who I've lost in sisters and I think about them and at the same time I know I have to go on and live. Today Someone attempts suicide, someone takes their life. I can't change the fact and I wish they would have come talk to me sooner, before they got into that Go. No go, because once you get into that go, it's, it's. It's not always certain, but it's not going to be changing unless something drastically changes in those circumstances. And it's harsh, it's a tough topic and I and I hate it that we have To talk about it so harshly and yet we've we've pushed it off so long in society as a. That person was sick. That person was ill, that person was selfish.
Dave Snell:Let me tell you a side story, if I may, please. That was 2002, april. I went home to my dad's place Mom and dad's and my dad and step mom in Florida for Christmas that year and I don't think my dad intended this, it just came out. Anybody who commits suicide is a effing coward. And I responded to him. I said well, if you then and you could see a little bit of well. I forgot what he did Because my mother and my sister are both attempted. My real mother, who I haven't spoken to in many, many, many years, have both attempted as well, and I think that's where he was coming from. I don't think he was remembering or putting in together that I had tried that year and I've noticed even. You know it's a generational thing, yes, but At the same time I've noticed within him and his friends and a few others and that generation hey, we were wrong.
Dave Snell:You know it's not cowardly. You're hurting, you're sick, there's something there. There are cowardly attempts. I get it. You know I don't want to deal with going to prison because I failed and I got caught. I did something illegal and got caught. Well, go do your punishment. I just hope that anybody who thinks that they're not good enough, that they have failed, that they don't have a meaning or purpose anymore, realize that there is a way out. And again, that's where I'm happy to talk to anybody, 24 seven, get them the help they need professionally I'm not a professional, let me, you know, let me caveat that it's all late in my career to be changing 100%, doing that, but I will help anybody anywhere, anytime, because you are good enough. There is a way out and it's not. You know, I've said before here today, it's a short, it's a long term solution to a short term problem. The problems will end, life can still go on. It's a topic that that I obviously get a little heated about or passionate about.
Dave Snell:And that's, I'll let you. I'm sorry.
Thad David:No, no, I was cutting you off, I was just going to share that. That's what I made me very excited to talk to you because you're passionate about it. Yeah, let's talk to the people that are passionate about these topics.
Dave Snell:Yeah. So again, if I can help anybody, I'll always go back to this. I will help them wherever I can, because I've been to that dark place, I've ideated since and when I've ideated since, I've said, okay, time out, I need to go talk to my therapist, or even just have a call with a friend and say, look, I don't know why I'm having these thoughts. Can we have a few minutes to talk? And I think that if we look at our lives today, facebook is great, instagram is great, linkedin is great for its purpose. They all have their purpose and people will say, oh well, you're getting the 10%, but not the crap that goes into that 10% success.
Dave Snell:But my point here is that it's disconnected at us from connection, from human involvement. I'll email them, I'll text them. No, call them, I need to. You know, if I'm in a depressed state, I want to hear a voice, I want to hear toe, I want to hear inflection. The text can just be I care and just I care, just monotone, and that's how I could take it. But if I hear, look, I care about you, I want you to survive, you know there's more to it. There's an inflection, there's a tone, there's a hesitation, there's, you can feel the voice coming out. That's different. I think we've lost that humaneness, the humanity behind our interactions.
Thad David:You know I had a and I want to be clear too, this is a one example where it worked out really well and I think that I can do a better job of this and it's just such a soon thing that I'd text a veteran buddy of mine that I'd met just over the years and I just ran. I was thinking about him a lot and I was like, hey, man, I know you're going through a bunch of stuff and I just wanted to make sure you're you're doing okay. How was everything? Is it okay if we jump on a phone call? And he messaged back.
Thad David:Well, we got on the phone two days later and he was so. He was like man, that was the best possible time that and I think it was a lot of luck. I think I can do a better job. So I'm not definitely not trying to put a ray of sunshine over myself because I can do a better job, but to see the impact that it could have by having that connection point of really reaching out and connecting with somebody. And it's powerful stuff that we can we can all do more of.
Dave Snell:Yeah, I'm not trying to jab anybody and say you screwed up or you should have called them if you, if you'd lost somebody. I think it's just a day to day routine change that we all need to start thinking about.
Thad David:Well, and I love that you did take a moment to put some responsibility of what we can do now as reaching out to people, but you also mentioned that in that moment that they, they it was the go, no go. They're in go mode and there's. You're not stopping it. And while you're not saying, don't reach out to people, don't reach out to your buddies, don't check in 100%, do that, but also don't feel horrible about it, because the ones that get in that go mode and, if I may correct me, if I'm, if I'm off base here, because, as you were walking us through that moment in time, because you had just met that, that buddy, that you had saw him, he'd said the road soda, I believe, is what you had referred to it as.
Thad David:And then you, you had already started taking those pills. I mean, you were, you were on that journey to commit suicide, and one thing that I didn't hear you say, that was going through your mind, was, if all of these other people that aren't like there wasn't a space of screw everybody else, that it was really a dark internal space for you, and to me that means that that person, while, yes, should take responsibility to reach out, but it's almost feels selfish to take the blame for it because it wasn't about them in that moment, it was about you in that moment.
Dave Snell:Yeah.
Thad David:And then after the fact to say, well, it was definitely on Instagram. It's like no, yes, there is stuff you could do, but also realize that they had a lot of stuff going on that we didn't know about and for us to think we could have done something is almost it's. It's not a great space.
Dave Snell:It's a hubris that we think we can solve it all. I'm not going to solve everybody's problem. I'm going to find a way, the best I can, to do so. And if I've done everything I can and something still happens, I've I don't want to say I've done to myself, to it, but I've and at the same time I've had to say, look, I cannot do it. I'll give you a good case in point.
Dave Snell:I had a lieutenant who worked for me in my last command, just before I retired. He was in for another four or five months and we kept in touch and he had some issues. And he started texting me about a year after he retired or after he left the Navy, and he was telling me how everything I'd done in Afghanistan was killing babies, the government was corrupt and we never should have been there and I was a murderer. I, dave Snell, was a murderer because I killed babies and I said I said, bro, I didn't kill a single baby and anything I did there was never an intent to kill anybody other than someone who wanted to kill us. You know, I did my job and he started talking about suicide. He was drinking a lot. I don't know that he ever got into drugs. But he definitely was right on the precipice and he called me.
Dave Snell:I was in Chicago working for a company I was doing the Monday fly up to Chicago, worked till Thursday night, fly home and work from home on Friday as a consultant and I had a meeting I had to go to and I said look, oh, let's talk. And I got people coming to me in the rotunda of this big you know office building in Chicago. Hey, dave, we got, we got a meeting. Come on. I said you know, piss off. I've got a guy on the phone and I got him to finally get online and set up a VA thing where they called him back. So there was kind of I didn't want to leave him off the phone and then go. Oh well, there's a gap in time, something could happen before the VA came in. So thankfully we're talking in. The VA called and we dropped off and he talked to the VA and he got the help and I this is not a pat on the back I'm pretty sure he was ready to. He was beyond the go, no go, and there are times again, there's different circumstances. There's not a finality. I think he was ready to do it Whether he'd made the go no go, I can't say, but I think I think he was right there if he hadn't already decided. So we got him back.
Dave Snell:It's a tough situation to be in and I did everything I could and yet when I got in touch with him later, he just railed right back at me Dave, you're a killer, you did this, you did that, the country sucks this, that and the other. And I was like I finally had to look at him and say, paul, I can't do this anymore. I've done what I can. We're done. You need to get the help you need, and I've put you on that path.
Dave Snell:I will say I hadn't talked to Paul for I was 2017. I hadn't talked to him for almost six years and he texted me out of the blue just two months ago, said, hey, I'm finally getting the help I need. I'm an alcoholic, I'm depressed. He's finally on the right track.
Dave Snell:At some point I just could not do anything more for him. He did not want to hear what I had to offer. Whether he had a prejudice against the government and I was his conduit to say I was the epitome of the ills of our nation, I don't know. And at the same time I responded to him as in Paul, I'm more than willing to talk to you. We just need to have some ground rules that we're here to get you better not to insult or assault me through words. It's there, I mean, there's always enough. I lost a chief to suicide, not because of depression. It was one of those spur of the moment. I can't lose my wife. I'm lost without her. I'm going to put a gun to my chest, and that's what he did. And at the same time, we can, through compassion, talking, expression, expressiveness, we can connect with people and bring them back from the idea of suicide.
Thad David:Really respect your ability because I think we as humans can struggle with this at times is setting our boundaries with other people.
Dave Snell:Well it might be one of the only times I've done so effectively, though.
Thad David:Well, it's not an easy thing to do and I think that more of us could take note of that as well, of just being able to stand firm that I also have thoughts and feelings as well, and I'm willing to help you, however not at the expense of me, and your ability to set that boundary is massive. And I have another question for you about this, and I really appreciate you sharing, because you walked through the attempted suicide and then earlier on you said there was a moment and time where you had kind of I believe the word was the ideation of it or just the thinking of it and what were the? Just curious to know the differences there, you know, because I wonder what's there to unpack that one of them? You attempted one of them. It was just the thinking of it and it didn't manifest.
Dave Snell:Yeah, ideations are geez. Wouldn't it be nice if I wasn't here anymore. Ideations are what if I were to drive my car off this bridge? What would happen if I took too many pills? You know, just the thought. There's no intent behind it, as opposed to an attempt, where you are setting in motion a plan I'm going to go buy the gun, I'm going to go buy the pills, I'm going to isolate myself in a room and make sure nobody else can get hurt, and I'm going to do it. The ideations are if I were to do this, what would happen? You know, there's no intent of turning the wheel and driving off the bridge.
Dave Snell:And I bring that one up in particular, because I had that one many times going to Norfolk Naval Base and they say, if I drove off this bridge, I would fall and I'd die. Is that really what I want? No, absolutely not. You go through that process. I don't really want it, but that would be a way I could if I did. I have no intent. Like I said, I have a wonderful daughter, my wife and son as well. It's another story, but I'm not doing it.
Thad David:Well, I'm so, so happy to get to know you and I really appreciate you sharing. I know that there's a lot inside of that and a lot that I can't even begin to understand. So thank you for diving deep into it. And I would love to circle back into where your passions lie now, because you had mentioned the step one of diet and exercise that you had jumped into, and I believe is that lining up with the 4M's that you have, Because I know we had talked about them, that step one.
Dave Snell:Is that something you'd?
Thad David:be willing to share.
Dave Snell:Oh, absolutely. This is the basis of how I interact with folks on the idea of getting beyond trauma, getting beyond depression or anxiety and living a more fulfilled life, if you will. So, like I said, in December of 19, I was heavier than I ever wanted to be and at the same time, lindsay, my therapist, and I were working on a plan. For the mental side, there is no doubt and there's no argument that there's not a gut-brain connection what we eat, how much of it we eat, when we have an effect on our brain, our mood, our mental state.
Dave Snell:So changing my diet, losing the weight, gaining the energy, really had a positive mental effect on me and as I lost the weight and gained that energy, I had a more positive perspective on how I felt and looked and it's very shallow okay, I look better in the mirror. So I'm going to feel more confident. I want to do those things that I normally wouldn't have, or I'm going to go talk to somebody when I wouldn't have. I'm just going to feel better about myself. There's an aura lifted, you know, you kind of feel better.
Thad David:Why do you think that is that Just hit me. Why do you think we call that? Because, to think about how healthy it is, we assign a negative connotation to it, to call it shallow, and I know that that's what we talk about society-wise.
Dave Snell:I'm sorry, no, I was going to say.
Thad David:I wonder how much that negative connotation that we have towards it, Because it literally like step one of feeling better about yourself is to feel better about yourself, and yet we call it To self, as you are. And to feel confident, yet we assign that negative, shallow connotation to it. And that it just hit me struck me just the irony of that.
Dave Snell:That's the healthy path, I think I said shallow because I think as we look at society, we always think oh well, she's hot, she's pretty, she's gorgeous.
Dave Snell:We don't think about well, is she needy, not mean happy? Is she even happy in life? You know she's just. That's a beautiful woman. I go with women because we're guys, but it goes the same way Are you a good-looking guy? Is he a good-looking guy? I don't know. I mean, we look at the exterior first. That's why I say shallow, because we're not thinking of a deeper I definitely understood exactly what you were saying.
Thad David:I wasn't talking about that scenario, I know, but just to me it just struck me as just interesting that we assign this negative connotation, which is step one, to the. Being healthy is just feeling good about yourself, and so it just, I just wanted to make the space that it is definitely okay and step one of feeling healthy is to start feeling that.
Dave Snell:So sorry to cut you off in the middle of that? No, absolutely. I think it's a very important point. My confidence is really it's a personal, internal thing and we've got to feel good about what we're doing and how we're doing about things. So I started running again. I had this idea. I've been a runner and I played soccer up through high school, a little bit in college on the intramural teams for soccer, but I was never really a big runner anymore after high school. Yeah, we do our Navy twice a year a mile and a half, the three mile club. I really wasn't that fit while I was in the Navy, to be quite honest. But as I started going through the pandemic and I'll go through each one individually and how I came about it as I lost the weight, the energy came. I started running again.
Dave Snell:I had had in my mind that I would never run again. My personal trainer insists she loves the fact that I kept telling her in 2018, I'm never running again. I just physically can't do it. My back hurts, my knees hurt, my arms hurt, even because I've got some neck surgeries that I've had. Okay, well, movement. Movement has an effect on the brain, the mood, our personalities, our ability to do work, focus on work. I notice, on days where I don't go out for a run or go to the gym, my mood is down, my focus is down, so I go for a run.
Dave Snell:The next step you mentioned the four M's. Let me back. It's movement, mind, meditation and meaning. And the next one is mind. And when you're dealing with traumas, trying to solve these by yourself is ridiculous in my mind. We need to get help and we talked about how I did that through my therapist, lindsay, who got me to the talk. Therapy, emdr, neuro stimulation, vagus, nerve reset, and that is good for a period of time, but I don't want to see Lindsay for the rest of my life. I don't want to see any therapist. I don't want to keep seeing therapists for the rest of my life, whether it's one or any others. I want to get to a point where I can live without needing to see them. And I don't remember exactly how the next step came about.
Dave Snell:I've always been fascinated with meditation and I've always been told hey, you just got to blank the mind. Well, the mind can't do that, the mind has to. If I were to tell you, don't think of an elephant, you're going to start thinking of an elephant, a pink elephant, a floating elephant and different. The first thing that went in my mind sorry, I'm a Winnie the Pooh fan is the Heffa, lumps and Moosles scene in that movie. You're just going to have all kinds of images of elephants. And I learned and it was very thankful for the pandemic because it gave me a lot of time to read, to watch videos, to listen to people going through guided meditations.
Dave Snell:And it's not about blanking the mind, it's about focusing the mind and, in particular, the easiest one is breathing meditation, focusing on your breath, inhale and exhale through the nose preferably, if you can, and it has a relaxing effect on your muscles, your brain, just the entire body if you really focus on it. And when I say focus on it, so in what way I think about it, is as a surface warfare officer we're taught to think. You know, gas turbine engine, like molecule of air, enters the intake, goes to the first blade, second blade, gets compressed, gets burned and expands and now it's an exhaust. Okay, that molecule of air. Well, think about it as a molecule of air going through your nose, down your trachea, into your lung. Okay, it's in your lung, goes out the ally, after the bronchus and all that Goes through the blood comes back out, and then think about the reverse. Well, that's how I, when I meditate, I'm thinking about that molecule of air going in and out.
Dave Snell:Okay, so when I can't see a therapist, or I'm not seeing a therapist, or those times where I'm just stressed or I'm penned in, I just had this happen last week. I was in the in the SuperMiranda commissary, and the lady in front of me wasn't moving. I was in the aisle you know in the cashier aisle already, you know the candy bars on both sides and this guy came in behind me and penned me in, because my cart was behind me as well, and I was just like I can't, you know. It reminded me of some instances in the desert and I just I started to panic subtly. It wasn't a panic attack, don't get me wrong and I just said, okay, oh, hey, look that just that helps.
Dave Snell:And I did three or four of those breaths. Okay, I'm in a situation, it's not dangerous, I can move on. I don't need to panic, I can sit calmly and wait till she moves on and I'll get out Easy day, right. So meditation gives us that opportunity to move through the day. You can meditate anywhere. I just did that. One breath is a meditation. We think of meditation as this blanking the mind and you know nothing can disturb you over time. With that, you're doing it. But even that one breath, I was in the now. I was in that moment not thinking about anything else but my breath, so nothing else mattered, right? So there's the first three movement, mind, meditation.
Thad David:And with that too, I love that you mentioned that the I've heard of it referenced like micro meditation, yeah, but you just reminded me of a past interview that I have with Steve Haman, and as he runs Hives for Heroes and he's very big into beekeeping and the bees saved his life and he shares an example of when he's collecting honey, of if bees actually make it into your suit, it just made me think of what you were talking about in that micro moment of, because I think a lot of people are faced those situations where they might feel trapped and then there's starts to ruffle up some stuff, and he actually shared that the worst thing you can do in that moment is panic, because the bees are going to stay in you as long as you remain calm, and it's a practice of that breathing that sets you free, and so I love that you shared that. And so step four yeah, is meaning.
Dave Snell:So part of the weight loss program I went through they had to. You know what's our why. Why am I doing this? Why am I alive? Why? What is it that makes me do what I do? What's my purpose for losing the weight and living life with health? Kind of, you know, kind of cheesy. But so I said OK and I wrote out my why and I have it right here. It's on my desk every day on a three by five card and I see it.
Dave Snell:But OK, three m's and a W didn't really kind of make sense. So what's another word for meaning or purpose? Why our purpose? It was a meaning. It just kind of lent itself to the four m's.
Dave Snell:And the way I think of this is this I can have movement, I can have meditation and I can have my mind all balanced, but they don't mean a thing if I don't have a meaning. And I think of it as kind of a three leaf clover, if you will. The stem is the meaning and those other three kind of balance on the stem, because if the meaning isn't there it all crumbles down. You can lose one of the. You know I could not move for a little while but I still have my meditation in my mind to kind of balance me out and stay on that at stem, ok, and I get the movement back and I'm balanced again and I can lose the meditation or the mind and movement will keep me balanced. That meaning, that reason for why I do what I do, keeps me going and remembering why I need to go for a run, why I need to think about meditating, because I'm panicked, because I want to stay on my case. I want to set a good example of physical and mental well-being for my family, my friends and anybody else who needs help. That's really what it comes down to. So this really all came to a head.
Dave Snell:I put them all together the last two years where 1993. I was a junior in college and I think the Marine Corps Marathon was still in May at the time and I said I'm going to run the Marine Corps Marathon, I'm going to do this great big thing. And I never did and I came up with every excuse I'm not good enough, I'm not physically fit enough, I've got schoolwork, I've got drinking to do, I've got whatever you know. And then I joined the Navy and we deployed and we're on ships and doing all these things 2003,. I tried again and in this case I thought I had a good purpose. I thought I had a good meaning and it was so two days after my attempt this is kind of a sick twist of irony, I don't know what the right word is. I still feel some guilt over this.
Dave Snell:But April 20th of 2002, I lost one of my best childhood friends it was a Marine in an air show accident, andy Muse, called Simon Mutt. I've known Mutt since I was five years old and now we're talking 25 years later. He was killed in an air show accident. So I said, okay, I'm going to run this Marine Corps marathon in Andy's honor and I injured my knee, I think, during training and then kind of fell off in 2003. And then I started deploying to the desert.
Dave Snell:Another excuse came up, other reasons why I couldn't do it and then in 2013, I told an Air Force friend of mine who I'd worked with in Honolulu actually Pearl Harbor said, hey, I'm going to run this thing before I turn 50. So well, dave, you got nine years. I said, yeah, I do. I said okay, and I kind of fell off again until the pandemic and I started getting my energy back and my physical fitness back and my purpose back, my meaning, and they all came together last year, really, when I did my first Marine Corps marathon. I had the diet right, I had my movement right, my mind was right. I was still seeing my therapist at the time. I meditated throughout the race. Every 20 minutes or so I would take three deep, intentional breaths into the nose, now through the mouth, to kind of calm my mind. And I would always go back to my purpose and, honestly, the marathon last year. I didn't train for it properly.
Dave Snell:Ten days before the race last year, my running partner who I think Joe, at the time of 61 or 62, calls me up right out here in my court. I just finished running two miles, struggling through two miles. Now we're 10 days out from a marathon and he calls me up. I'm all my earbuds because I was listening to music, whatever. He says hey, you ready for this thing? I said nope, I'm deferring to 2023. He goes the heck you are. I said what are you talking about? I could barely do two miles. Joe, I'm not ready. He goes I'm about to go through chemo and radiation diet 10 days after we run this thing. You are going to do this race and it was important to me because the community, the friendships, the connections go back to that humanity, the personalization of pushing me along. I was ready to give up again, despite my meaning and my purpose of why I wanted to do these things, and he said no, you're not. You've talked about it for too long. I'm going to make sure you get through this race. And I actually did it.
Dave Snell:At the 20-mile mark, I remember looking at Joe and saying I feel effing great. And I did, but I had totally mentally, meditatively, whatever I blocked out any pain. I didn't even notice the crowds. I was in the moment, I was in the now and I think that's very important. I can talk about more than now. We're going to live, we're here, we're right now. I can't worry about the next meeting, I can't worry about the last meeting or whatever's not right here. And that was really important during that race. And I say that because half a mile later, joe looked at me and he said I can't go, I want you to finish before five hours. You're going to leave me and we went through the whole. I'm not leaving you, we're going to finish this together, back and forth, not leaving a man behind. Ok, rah, rah, and I finally did. And a half mile later I see two EMTs giving CPR to a guy and I'm like, oh shit, what did I just do? I left a guy with cancer throat cancer a half a mile back and I said, ok, wait a minute. I calmed myself and I went through the breathing again. Ok, wait a minute, I'm going to see him because we're going to do this through Crystal City. You counter flow against each other. I was like, ok, I can do this, I start running again. I didn't see Joe in Crystal City so I deflated. But I finished and that was the key and I did it under five hours.
Dave Snell:This year was a struggle. I went into it feeling confident I've done one before, I better train for this one. But then I didn't realize it was 20 degrees hotter than it was last year. This year it was 65 degrees at start. This year, when it ended at 65 last year and this year ended at 85 degrees. It was a brutal run and it was yet, at the same time, a great testament, I think, to my abilities through those four m's, because I had to consistently and constantly remind myself of each of them.
Dave Snell:So this year, instead of running with Joe till 20 miles. I let Joe go ahead of me. I stopped telling him I need to stop running, just go without me, and it allowed me to internalize, without somebody else pushing me to really dig deep and go. Ok, I trained, my body can do this. Mind, you're in a good place, you're worthy, you're well qualified, you are good enough and that's an important one.
Dave Snell:I've said a couple of times through the time here, because a lot of people who attempt suicide don't think they're good enough. But I was able to. Just OK, I'm good enough, I'm going to breathe, I'm going to calm myself down, I'm not going to panic and then I'm going to remember. I said it. I could quit right now. I could walk off this course and just find my way back to my hotel, and yet I can't, because I know that I'm trying to set the right example for others. That it can be. You can get through any trouble. That's ahead of you. I have 16 more miles to go, but I'm going to do it. I have 10 miles to go. I'm going to do it. The hardest mile was the last half mile, because you have a uphill right at the end of the Marine Corps marathon. Ok, I'm going to do it.
Dave Snell:So I was able to take, because I was by myself, I think more importantly show that I could step through movement, mind, meditation and meaning to finish that race on my own. And I did it worse than last year and that hurt, I mean it killed me. I was just beside myself like dang, dang. What did I do? I failed. No, you finished the race. You weren't trying to do it for the podium, you weren't trying to get an age group win, you just wanted to show you could do it. I did it. Nothing I could have changed in my training would have changed the outcome. Potentially because the out of your control elements, the weather, are beyond your control. You just have to deal with them.
Thad David:Yeah, it's such a beautiful example of it, and I'm curious to ask you because one thing that we talk about often, especially on this show, is just taking action and getting started, and you had mentioned how many times you'd said that you were going to do this marathon, and then you even said, like nine years before you had said, all right, I'm going to do it before I'm 50. I was like, oh, you got nine years, and then what was the initial spark that actually forced you or, and I would say, forced you, but created that urgency for you to go do it?
Dave Snell:It was the pandemic.
Thad David:Okay.
Dave Snell:It was the. Again, I'll go back to the diet, the change of intake, the loss of weight, the energy that I regained. And then I've known Joe for a while. I didn't know how much of a runner he was, let me caveat this. So he comes up to me. He's like, hey, I hear you're getting back into running. Like, yeah, I want to do this Marine Corps marathon finally before I turn 50 in a couple of years. And he said, okay, let's go for a run sometime. And so, okay, next week, we'll go for a run next Saturday. And this was like on Sunday or Monday.
Dave Snell:And I met up with some other old shipmates for a work or something. They're like, oh, you're going to go run with Joe. You do know that guy runs 100 milers for fun, like just on a weekend. And I'm like, oh no, I had no idea. And okay, well, I guess I'll try this. And he was. He understood, I'm a new runner again, let's work through getting you built up. And I said, okay, joe, I don't want to go right into a marathon, I want to build up to a marathon. And I mean that not just in the training plan, I mean I want to do some other races in between. I want to get used to running in crowds. I want to. You know, I think that's really the biggest one. I want to be able to run other things and say I can build up mentally, I can do a five kag and do a 10 kag and do a half, show that my body is incrementally getting better. So he ran.
Dave Snell:So the pandemic canceled the local half marathon marathon here, but they did a rolling start. It was not a okay big group of people and then you have a finish line. At a certain time you got to be done. They started like between seven and 10. You could just choose your time to cross the marker, your bib would set off the clock and you'd run the race. Okay.
Dave Snell:So he met me at mile five and he ran me for the next. He ran me to 12 and a half yeah, about 12 and a half miles. We're on the final stretch, on the waterfront of the beach, the boardwalk here in Virginia Beach, and he said, okay, last, last half mile is yours, you're on your own, and I just, you know, spread it down the boardwalk and finished, and just under two hours, I think. But it was again the community, somebody helping me, pushing me a little bit. And again, we can't solve our problems all by ourselves. We need other people to help us. And he got me through that first half marathon. I said, okay, half marathon with help I can do. And I did.
Dave Snell:I think it was, you know, 21. And then, august of 21, I did the rock and roll half marathon here in Virginia Beach. It was the last one they did and I tell you what it was a struggle, you know. I got in my mind again I had to start. Okay, I don't need someone to push me, I need to dig deep to get through this.
Dave Snell:So I did the half marathon and this year, you know, I did the full marathon last year. This year I did the Marine Corps 17.75 kilometer, which is about 11.06 miles, and that was a tough one because I hadn't trained for hills this one's in a state or national park up near Quantico. Hadn't trained for hills Uh-oh, that's a trouble. And it was cold and wet in March northern Virginia's Many know it's not a pretty place Did the Marine Corps half marathon respectable time. But again, it was by myself. So I'm starting to build up these again, just like the traumas you know they compound on your experiences.
Dave Snell:Then I did the 10-miler here. I did the Army 10-miler three weeks before the marathon, which I went out to do as a training run and I ended up PRing it from the race I had done three weeks prior. And what I've done now is I've decided I've got new goals. You know we shouldn't rest on our laurels. We need to have to continue the healing and the recovery. If you will, I'm going to do the same races I did this year. I've added on another half marathon. I'm going to add in cross training with bike and swim so that in 2025 I can do two things January of 2025, I want to do the dopey challenge at Disney World.
Thad David:Yes, that's what I want to do. I love that you're 10K, half and full.
Dave Snell:So I'm going to do those, hopefully January 2025.
Thad David:That's my goal.
Dave Snell:And then I bring up swimming and biking, because the gauntlet has been thrown, the challenge has been accepted and I'll do a triathlon in 2025. So I've really gotten into this idea of endurance sports. I don't consider myself an endurance athlete. I've done two marathons. Okay, they're guys. The Moab out in Utah is 238 miles. Those are endurance runners in my mind. I'm just a guy who's trying to stay healthy through long distance running, and that's where I'd rather be focused on is the mental state that goes into it and helping others get there as well.
Thad David:I don't know how much you've looked into it, but this has been a recent passion of mine through some other things, and I discovered zone two heart rate training. I don't know if you've Okay.
Dave Snell:I've failed that many, many times, but I want to keep pushing.
Thad David:I was able to push through and get into a good spot with it and it's pretty amazing. It's pretty.
Dave Snell:It's been tough for me to get to that. So I'm not a fast runner, I'm a 930 pace roughly guy. Now generally maybe 10 minutes. But to get to a zone two for me required me to get to like a 12 minute mile. Going that slow is like walking fast and I just I haven't mentally been able to make that shift to slow down to go faster. Yep, and I say that half jokingly, because my training runs are often at the 10 to 11 minute pace, knowing that it'll build up for the longer, faster races but the the the 12 minute pace. I just cannot slow down enough to go faster on that one.
Thad David:It's definitely. It's a mental challenge and I have to I've always had to prep myself for it, but it's in my limited experience with it over the last six months it's been it's been pretty fruitful.
Dave Snell:Well, I'm. I'm thankful that, for I wanted to do the dopey challenge this January and I'm thankful I didn't get in, because I don't think I'd be ready at the rate that I've been going lately and I just missed it. It was, it was really, it was an irony. I thought the registration for the dopey challenge started at noon on a day in April. It started at 10. And had I known that or remembered that, I would have been in and maybe that would have changed my training Cycle and plan. Yes, but I actually had to go to my uncle's funeral up in DC, up in Maryland, and I, just as the, just as the priest was coming out, I'm like on my phone Disney run Disney. I missed it. Dang it, okay back.
Dave Snell:I'm focused on my uncle and I say that jokingly my uncle would have more than understood he was. He was a prankster he was. He was a retired cryptologist as well. His, his, his card that he gave out was I hope you laugh at my funeral because it means that you were there. You know the true story. The guy was he was a great class act. Well, some would say he was a crass act, but he was a class act. He was actually in Beirut when the bombing happened in 83. So very he was a warrior. Just quick note on a warrior gentleman, best cryptologist ever that I've worked with and I'm missing.
Thad David:But well, I Appreciate you sharing that and also these goals that you have within it, because you mentioned the meaning and I know it started from the why, and I'm deviating even further from it potentially, but with a goal, because I read this gentleman's book. He was a gold medalist in the Olympics and he had spent 25 years chasing this gold medal dream that he had and the most depressing time of his life was that one week period After he won his gold medal and his wife, he was like just so depressed. And his wife grabbed him and was like you realize why you're depressed, right? And he's like I have no idea. And she's like well, you've had a goal for the last 25 years and you just hit it.
Thad David:Yeah and now he's a big proponent of always having your next goal ready to line up, because and I know that's goals Different than meaning, different than why.
Dave Snell:However, there is a parallel there that you don't have it, you you may feel lost and, most likely, you will but I think that that also gets to the, the greater human Nature of I Got what I was grasping for, the old Greek mythology, or reaching for the stars, reaching for what you want, but then what? What does it mean? You know, back in 2018, I went to a therapist before I went to see Lindsay and he asked me. He said hey, you know what'll make you happy? I said, well, if I moved to Florida, that'll make me happy, because no, they'll just change your circumstance.
Dave Snell:Your happiness is what you make of it. Again now here, what's gonna make you happy right now in your day-to-day routine in life? What meaning or what purpose gets you to the point where you can just you can be happy, and how you define that is. You're relevant. It's really what makes you satisfied with what you have done. At that moment, you grasp that gold medal, but you're happy. Then what's gonna happen the next day? You have to have the next goal, the next attainment, that the happiness is not gonna come from that gold medal. Happiness is gonna come from your family and support system, your day-to-day routine that made you able to earn that gold medal, mm-hmm. And we forget that. We think that happiness comes from things when it's it's internal, from from a few small external, you know impacts on us.
Thad David:Beautifully said.
Dave Snell:I occasionally have a, have a fruitful fruit, fruit of wisdom. Word or two.
Thad David:You've got that's been plentiful. This this entire, this entire Time we've been able to spend together. Man, I do have one, one final question, that that I thought of earlier, that I want to close out with and I'd love to ask Really quick, I know so you said people can reach out to you what are the best ways for people to reach out and get in touch with you? Before I ask you this final question I'd love to to get that out there what are the ways for people to get in touch with you?
Dave Snell:The best way honestly is through LinkedIn.
Thad David:Okay.
Dave Snell:I'm always on LinkedIn. I actually get a lot of, so LinkedIn is the best way to get old of me. I'm so in my day-to-day routine I'm a cybersecurity consultant. I have my own company, snow advisory group, and At snow advisory comm you can find me there, so you'll see my day-to-day work in there for the cyber security. I'm also a private investigator, which ties into protecting information and people, but in there is my public speaking page. Where they can, you can reach out to me through there. There is a contact page in there and, again, I'm happy to talk to anybody anytime, whether it's, you know, in an environment like this where we're talking about mental health mental fitness is a term I prefer or if it's you're struggling and you want someone to lend a near, I'm happy to do so.
Thad David:Oh, I'm gonna definitely post it up. When we do this, when I post this up underneath the bio, I'll share your website, I'll tag your link, your LinkedIn, and my final question for you is Really back to what we were talking about with suicide and and people heading down that road, because I know right now I actually have a few buddies that are, that are on that path, and you know you're always seeking out what to do, what to do. However, knowing that you've been in that position, what advice would you give to somebody right now if they were listening to this, considering suicide, and what advice would you give to him? What would you tell him?
Dave Snell:First and foremost is, like I've said before, there is, there are other paths that are more fruitful than suicide. Life goes on. Beyond whatever you're going through right now, please reach out to somebody, whether it's 988, a Professional, a family member, a friend. Recognize that life Is beyond. There is life beyond what you're going through at this moment. It's temporary and remember why you're alive. What do you bring to the table? We all bring something to somebody and without you here, we lose that, they lose that, the world loses somebody. It's tough and I understand it's tough. I've been there and I don't want to lose any more people. I don't want to lose anybody To such a, such a, such a, such a case. I don't know the right word, I'm fumbling here. I Just don't want to lose any more to suicide. If we don't have to, it's, it's unnecessary.
Thad David:I I Completely agree, which is why I wanted to ask and I'm so grateful for you to reach out and and share as much as you have, and I think, about.
Dave Snell:I think that we need to open up more about it. I know there's a lot of resources out there. I'm just one who's telling his story. Some people have told me it's too much, and I think that's the problem.
Thad David:Hmm and that gets back to the stigma of what we place on it, back to the Just my micro, small, a ha calling shallow, where it's like, well, they actually need that right now. They need the confidence, and you know the story is Is the story for for that person. And Well, thank you very much, dave. I really appreciate everything you're doing, everything you continue to do, and I'm really looking forward to just staying in touch and and seeing all the great things, all the great things you do, we finish with happy birthday. Thank you.
Dave Snell:He's the Marines court Marine Corps birthday it is our day this weekend.
Thad David:Thank you very much and happy Veterans Day to you as well.
Dave Snell:Thank you.