From the heart-wrenching tale of Sue Johnson, a retired Army veteran and an adoptee from Vietnam, to the candid accounts of veterans grappling with PTSD, this episode is a tapestry of stories that explores the power of forgiveness, the journey of self-discovery, and the resilience of the human spirit. Sue's riveting story offers an insightful glimpse into the essence of identity and the significance of giving back. The episode further unravels narratives of veterans, their battles with their past, and how supporting each other provides a unique therapeutic comfort.
The episode later takes you along the Camino de Santiago, a path of reflection and healing that mirrors the veterans' journey towards inner peace. Through the lens of this 713-kilometer trek, we explore the importance of solitude, self-analysis, and the courage it takes to lay down one's burdens. There's a deep dive into the world of a chef-volunteer at Team Rubicon, a disaster relief organization, and the sense of fulfillment derived from serving others.
The episode's third act focuses on mental health of veterans. Here, we tackle the unique struggles female veterans face in a predominantly male environment, as Sue returns to shine a light on these challenges. We contemplate the hidden indicators of a veteran's cry for help, the essential role of therapy in untying past traumas and the significance of addressing childhood experiences in therapy. Concluding the episode on a hopeful note, we highlight the power of awareness, the importance of taking small steps towards positive change, and the impact of creating a ripple effect of change in the world.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
From the heart-wrenching tale of Sue Johnson, a retired Army veteran and an adoptee from Vietnam, to the candid accounts of veterans grappling with PTSD, this episode is a tapestry of stories that explores the power of forgiveness, the journey of self-discovery, and the resilience of the human spirit. Sue's riveting story offers an insightful glimpse into the essence of identity and the significance of giving back. The episode further unravels narratives of veterans, their battles with their past, and how supporting each other provides a unique therapeutic comfort.
The episode later takes you along the Camino de Santiago, a path of reflection and healing that mirrors the veterans' journey towards inner peace. Through the lens of this 713-kilometer trek, we explore the importance of solitude, self-analysis, and the courage it takes to lay down one's burdens. There's a deep dive into the world of a chef-volunteer at Team Rubicon, a disaster relief organization, and the sense of fulfillment derived from serving others.
The episode's third act focuses on mental health of veterans. Here, we tackle the unique struggles female veterans face in a predominantly male environment, as Sue returns to shine a light on these challenges. We contemplate the hidden indicators of a veteran's cry for help, the essential role of therapy in untying past traumas and the significance of addressing childhood experiences in therapy. Concluding the episode on a hopeful note, we highlight the power of awareness, the importance of taking small steps towards positive change, and the impact of creating a ripple effect of change in the world.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
I like your PTS right. You don't know what your PTS is all about, you don't like? I had a good friend of mine who was killed in Desert Storm and a couple of ones that were injured because of his. He was, you know, and I looked back and I was very angry with Phillip for a long time because he did injure other people, because he was naive and dumb and didn't follow orders. So, but I was angry and it took me forever to figure out how to forgive him.
Thad David:My name is Thad David. I'm a former Marine recon scout sniper with two deployments to Iraq. As a civilian, I've now facilitated hundreds of personal and professional development trainings across the country, and it struck me recently that the same things that help civilians will also help veterans succeed in their new roles as well. Join me as we define civilian success principles to inspire veteran victories.
Thad David:Welcome to another episode. I'm here today with Sue Johnson. How are you doing, Sue?
Sue Johnson:Doing great, doing great. Nice and chilly morning in Colorado.
Thad David:Yeah, it's a. It is a chilly morning. It really dropped down. It seemed like last week we had some warm days, but it dropped down pretty substantially.
Sue Johnson:Unfortunately. Yes, yeah, that's okay. It's what you get when you live in Colorado.
Thad David:Yeah, well, and I know, sue, we actually met at the airport kind of randomly. I know that I saw that you had a team Rubicon shirt on and I walked over and kind of introduced myself, and that was probably six months ago, which led to this conversation here.
Sue Johnson:Yeah, I think we were. Weren't we coming from Florida? I think you're on the same flight, I don't. I thought it was Florida. It could have been something else.
Thad David:Yeah, I don't remember which flight it was, but I remember seeing you on the airplane and then I was like you know what she looks like, a really cool person that I need to connect with, and I remember finding you a baggage claim and just saying, saying what's up, and that brought us to yours. I appreciate you taking some time. And just so everybody knows a little bit about you, you were retired medically from the Army. You were in for 13 years. Is that correct?
Sue Johnson:Yes.
Thad David:What did you do in the Army? When were you in?
Sue Johnson:I was in 1988 to 2000. I had originally I was in college. At that point I was like right below age of 18. And I decided to follow in the footsteps of my father, who was a Vietnam veteran. I was adopted through and it's kind of like the story of why I joined is because I had family members that were in the military and then my dad was in Vietnam and I was adopted from Vietnam. So it gave me a sense of okay, I want to give back to a country that gave me my life, to be able to start fresh. I was a baby when I came over, so I don't remember any of it, and I decided that I wanted to give back to a country that you know I was lucky to be able to live in for most of my life.
Thad David:That's incredible. Have you gone back to Vietnam to visit at all? Is that something you do?
Sue Johnson:I have. I went back once by there was a lady, her name was. She was a nun from Australia. Her name was Rosemary Taylor. She has since passed away, but I went on a it's called the Motherland tours with a group of nuns who worked with the orphanages and helped get the babies out, the orphans out of Vietnam, and so they, basically, when I went to Thailand the year before, rosemary said you must go back to Vietnam and I had met her by a real weird fluke, like she was happened to be just in Thailand at that moment because her sister had gotten into a really bad car wreck in Australia, so she had traveled back for a minute. I got blessed by a monk.
Sue Johnson:I know this is a weird story, but it that's how it evolved to where I finally got to meet the woman that really saved, you know, thousands and thousands of orphans' lives in Vietnam and a war to our country. And she continued to do so after, even though she probably could have been, you know, killed and sent to the camps after the fall of Saigon. But she said you need to go back to Vietnam and understand the history of where you came from and stuff like that. So I did, I followed her advice. I got to meet sister Mary Nell Ruth, who was the she's phenomenal woman too. She was a pilot with American Airlines back in the day but was never able to fly because she was female, but she got her pilot's license. So it's interesting that you were talking about how your wife was getting her pilot license, because that kind of like it's so interesting how far women have come in in just in history in itself, being able to do jobs that are male dominated and put air quotes there. But I saw that's why I went back to Vietnam and I learned a lot about myself. You know, I was like, oh, this is where I came from and it was. It was really cool, like a really great experience.
Sue Johnson:I gave Rosemary Taylor my Matoria service medal, which I got after I got out of the military. Took me six months to get it, but you know, you know all the paperwork trying to get all those awards signed before you get out, and I handed it to her and I said I would not ever been able to get this award without you literally saving my life. And so I gave back to, you know again, gave back to a country that basically saved my life. So that was really a big, huge pivot moment of going okay, get your shit together. Sue Got it Like somebody saved your life for a reason and I think that's that's. It was a new beginning for me at that point. It was 2000,. Maybe three or four, I don't know. To be honest with you, everything's a blur, but that was back. That was back then. I wasn't in the military. At that time I was working for the Army Fisher House program when I went over to Thailand and when I went to Vietnam.
Thad David:So yeah, so that's it. Well, so what was it like for you? I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking you, what was it like for you being adopted from Vietnam and growing up here in the US, I mean prior to joining the military? Obviously I could see where that would spark an interest in joining, but what was that like for you?
Sue Johnson:You know I'd be honest with you, like I have other siblings that were adopted and they had a hard time dealing with the fact that they were adopted. And I came from abused homes. Or actually my older sister she had really hard time with it and I'm not, but I had not. I didn't remember anything, so it wasn't one of those things that I regretted. I just knew that if I had not been adopted I wouldn't be alive, and I know, I knew this. My whole my whole life. I was like, oh yeah, I mean my life, my childhood was the best in the world, but who's is it? But I know there was a. You know I had a relationship with my adopted parents in a way that I knew that they saved my life. So there's that.
Sue Johnson:I don't know I was a. I was a crazy kid, you know. I didn't. You know I was probably always in trouble. I was. You know I was the middle child, but the first child, which is interesting. I was the first adopted child of my parents and child period and then I ended up being the middle child. Do the factors three? Three younger and two older siblings?
Thad David:What was? Yeah it's interesting. Yeah, there's so many studies done on the birth order and what that does, so I wonder how that follows up. Like what's it like being first but not the oldest?
Sue Johnson:I don't know, it's like I never really thought about, because there was such an age gap between all of us. And you know, my oldest siblings came from a very abusive families. That's why they came into our home. And then the younger two siblings, or three siblings one was my older sister or younger sister, has you know had problem about being adopted. And then there was too biological. My mom wasn't supposed to have children and all of a sudden she had two and so that was like, oh the miracle baby. So it was, it was.
Sue Johnson:It was definitely interesting being. I saw probably 10, maybe 10, nine or 10 when Amy was born and then Mick was born about two years later. So it's like you're you're helping raise two, two infants and two. You know, you don't even know it. Maybe that's when my mother, the instincts came in which I'm not a mom at all, love children but I don't want them. So there's that. But I think that's what helped me develop into being a kind of a caregiver throughout my life is because I did take care of my younger siblings.
Thad David:And that makes a lot of sense, the, the giving nature, because you mentioned afterwards you were working for the Fisher house, which I'd like to dive into that later, as well. Were your other adopted siblings. Where were they? Also from Vietnam.
Sue Johnson:No, my foster sister Bob yes she was. She was from Vietnam. She'd come over on the boats. We'd sponsored a boat family at 15 at one point, and that was right after the fall, and Bob basically was being abused by her mother, and so the priest came and asked us if we would take take her in as well. But she's gosh, she's probably in her seventies now, so she was quite older, like she was 16, 17. So there's at least a 10 to 12 year age gap between us. But she lives in Enid with her husband, got married very, very young. But I guess it's a Vietnamese culture you marry young. She got married probably at the age of 17. But her husband was like the same age, maybe a year older, and they have two kids that are grown up, so it's like they're my age now. So it's like, yeah, so that's the only one that was from Vietnam, but the other were from all over the world.
Thad David:That's pretty amazing that they stepped in to do that, and so you went through. You decided at what age did you decide that you were going to join the army?
Sue Johnson:Probably after I had no idea what I was going to do with after college. It's like yeah, I didn't. I joined listed. I didn't want to be an officer. I didn't like I don't know why I didn't want to be one, but I just didn't want to be one.
Sue Johnson:I didn't. I thought that because I was in ROTC and I was, you know, I did some, you know, training because I was pro. I was delayed entry because basic training I wanted to do it during my summer breaks and so I was in a reserve unit and I guess I just saw, because I was, you know, I didn't have any rank right, because you did learn in the military they it was. You could see that the NCOs, like enlisted, ran the military and I saw that immediately and that's why I was like, oh, you know what I'm not going to. You know, I definitely want to be on the boots on the ground, getting you know shit done and basically doing cool stuff that officers, as you've learned in the military.
Sue Johnson:I don't know if you're an officer or not, but what I learned in the military was that you know, yeah, they had their role, but they respected NCOs Most of them did, I think, the higher ranking that they went. They respected that. The NCOs were the back-loaded military and I saw that. So, and I had a lot of great mentors, both officer and enlisted mentors. So that was kind of why I went that direction.
Thad David:And so you had a college degree and decided you were still going to go on this Correct. That's amazing.
Sue Johnson:Yeah, it's interesting and I didn't want to. I don't know, I didn't it was. It is what it's like. It made me who I am today. I truly believe that I think it was. I learned a better way to lead people without you know, being a dick.
Thad David:Alright, so you joined in in 88, and what did you end up doing in the Army?
Sue Johnson:So my first job, my first MOS, was 71 Golf, which now I think it's all 90 series, but it's 71 Golf was a patient administrator. That was just female role and I, you know, it's just like you did what you could do. There was not many roles in the military at that point for women that you could get into, which was ironically weird, but it's like alright. So I did patient administration with the Port Sam Houston and then I decided to. After I got out of college I decided to go active duty and so I couldn't go back into that job. Yeah, so I had to go and find another job. So I went in as a 77 Foxtrot, which is petroleum supply specialist. So I ended up going to Germany for four years with that.
Sue Johnson:I went to Desert Storm, drove an 18-wheeler, you know five ton fuel truck around, did both retail and book with that job. Did that for four years and then I couldn't get promoted. Like it was just crazy, because it was point systems and it was just so hard to get promoted and because it was like, unlike the infantry, which you know their score, you know their point system was like 350. Like I was 899, which was the max, was 900 to get promoted and I was like no, this is ridiculous. So I went in as a 63 Bravo, which was a light, real vehicle mechanic, and I did that for about three years, got promoted and then I had a skin disorder from Desert Storm, which is psoriasis, which is an immune.
Sue Johnson:It's actually an immune deficiency. It's like it's the disease. You don't know about it until it just shows up all of a sudden. You're like what is this? I did biopsies. They didn't know like first. You know the test was an eczema, so I couldn't be a mechanic anymore because of the chemicals and stuff like that was just irritating my skin so bad.
Sue Johnson:So then I went back into so they call it MMRB, basically it's a medical review board to send you. So thank goodness I had another job that I could go back into. So I went back into patient registration and I went to Launceville, germany, and I ended up in the AirVac position and because at the time Launceville was army, ran by the army, so the Air Force ran the Air Medical Station Facility but we ran the AirVac offices. Okay, we went out to NATO ERMSI, european Regional Medical Command and Launceville Regional Medical Command, so we ran all those offices and so I ended up being that. I just said I was a travel agent for the sick and the dead at that point, okay, and so that is like.
Sue Johnson:Yeah, I know kind of like people are like looking at me, like what that's like? Well, it's true story. It's not like. That's really all I can talk about. That's all I can really say about it. Really, it was a lot of movement of that's where logistics came in my home I could move thousands of patients a week. Funny story where the US military are the only military in the world that has an air evacuation system in its military.
Thad David:Why is that?
Sue Johnson:I don't know, I just think it's a lot of money. I mean, we would have to say it's a. We had a, like a NICU baby had to be moved immediately to Philadelphia to chop what's due, as we sent it to, and you'd literally find the plane that could take this baby and all the doctors that went with it, the family, and they would literally fly that baby and the family and all the doctors on a C5. If that's what they could find, wow, yeah, so it's just like huh, and then they or they would bring in the doctors like, and so I think it's because of cost and I don't know we uh, there was Russians. It was going to Russians get.
Sue Johnson:I think it was during Bosnia, but they had gotten injured and they brought them to Launstool. Germany did not want anything to do with that, so we ended up having to medivact them because the Russian government just wanted to send them on a plane. But these guys were hooked up like pins and they're still in bed like really messed up, and so we flew them back to Russia on a plane. So I think that's probably cost. I don't know. It's weird. I never really thought about why. We were the only ones that did it. It's very, it's very expensive.
Thad David:And you would be the one, logistically, to help coordinate all of that.
Sue Johnson:Yeah. So we would like the doctors would submit a form and saying, okay, this patient needs to go to so-and-so hospital. Most of them all went to Walter Reed, some went to chop, the veterans went to their. The VA took them to their closest VA, what they were assigned to. But they would be seen and then I would, we would get them on a plane.
Sue Johnson:Basically the Air Force would screen them, I would get them the information and I would write all the orders for them inpatient, outpatient and we would get the influx of all the injured down from down range. Cause that was the thing, like everybody had to go through Germany at that time, which is okay, why don't you just send them to the U? S? But for some reason there was some regulation out to that they had to go through Germany. So once they got there, then we you know we send them forward to wherever the doctors or they would send them back to their unit, but that, and then we'd send them all over Europe as well, cause all the hospitals in Europe would send retirees or patients to Longstool. They get treated and then we would send them back home.
Thad David:Hmm, and you said you were in, and it's kind of backtracking a little bit too, but you were in Desert Storm.
Sue Johnson:Yes, uh, huh.
Thad David:Yeah, what did you do during Desert Storm?
Sue Johnson:I was a petroleum supply specialist, so I drove a field truck throughout the Desert Storm until I became a commander's driver. I don't know why I got picked, but I mean the commander was he wasn't from our unit. It was kind of weird because I think I don't know the rules of the war, but he, he was a major, so or not a major? He was a captain. But I think in the medical field you have to it has to be a major to command a medical company, which is okay. But he came from the reserves because I guess our commander at the time I guess retired or something.
Sue Johnson:I don't know what happened, but he ended up and they were looking for a driver. It's like, all right, I guess I have the best driving record. I don't know. I mean, I'd rather wish I'd stayed with my, my, my, my platoon. But I learned a lot from them and you know it's just like driving. You know misstays you around. We ran into a lot of. You know wire was great. We had the old cut Vs back then. You know the unleaded or the leaded vehicles and you can see anything at night. We didn't have home Vs just yet. They weren't even painted. So we were brought running green vehicles they, but so that's kind of what I did. Yeah, after I got picked to be a commander, I'd love to.
Thad David:I would, and I would imagine to. I think, looking back at my time in the military, you know I had buddies that had several years of college done, or did have a degree, but decided to go enlisted as well, and you know as much as I didn't want to admit it at the time, but you could just tell there was definitely an intellectual level above where we were at. I mean, not to mention the fact that there there's four years. I mean an 18 year old is very different than a 20 year old, aside from the college. So I would imagine you you carried yourself in a very highway, much like you do now, and that's probably why you got selected to do that.
Sue Johnson:Well, you know, I or I was a sucker, I'm not sure which You're doing this like really. I mean, I kind of fought it for a minute but I was like whatever, I'll just do whatever I need to do.
Thad David:But I love your humility with all of it and, as a Desert Storm veteran, you know it's interesting and I love to talk to each kind of. We all have our generational war, or just the battles that we ran. What was that like after that was over? Because there was a you know a period of time before the Iraq war picked up. There was you know quite a large chunk of time. What was it like as that was over? Is it similar to now? Is it different to now, you know, with our veterans that are getting out these days or spent, that have spent time in the second war?
Sue Johnson:Well, I think I think being a Desert Storm veteran is where we're in a whole different entity. Like we have the Vietnam veterans that weren't accepted back and I think Desert Storm, because we were accepted, people started to forgive whatever happened in Vietnam. I met so many Vietnam veterans that realized they finally realized that we, they belong in society as well, and I think Desert Storm helped kick the public to understand that war is not about killing people or babies. It's about how going out and supporting a country that can't support itself and be part of that bigger picture of we need to support these veterans that come back. Did we think that? I mean, it's a hundred, what a hundred hour war, the ground war, right, so was it a significant chunk of change like Vietnam war or two or all the other wars before us? Absolutely not, but it was significant enough that it did have big impacts in my life, probably 10 years on down the road, when I didn't realize I was having these problems.
Thad David:What impacts would you say that was?
Sue Johnson:Yes, right, you don't know what your PTS is all about, you don't like? I had a good friend of mine who was killed in Desert Storm and a couple of ones that were injured because of his. He was, you know, and I looked back and I was very angry with Phillip for a long time because he did injure other people, because he was naive and dumb and didn't follow orders. So, but I was angry and it took me forever to figure out how to forgive him and Team Rubicon. Ironically, we went to a small town called Marcel's, illinois, and it was 2013,.
Sue Johnson:Maybe this is the one and only Middle East conflict memorial that's sitting out there, and the whole time I was there, I was so busy doing logistics, trying to keep the teams together, because at that point, you know, there's different typings of and it was like a type 3 flooding that just flooded the whole city.
Sue Johnson:So we went out there to help and towards the end, somebody said, oh, we took a picture in front of this memorial wall because we helped move all this debris from the wall. And somebody said, oh, you should, you know, look at this wall because it's you. This is every conflict up to Desert Storm in the Middle East, and so my friend was on this wall and I had no idea that his name was on this wall and so at that point I think my healing it started because I was not angry with him anymore. I was able to see a name and be mad at him for a minute and it's like and then, so that changed. That changed a lot of in how I looked at different things, and not that I not that I immediately got help right after that, but I knew there was a long road, that I wasn't, I was angry. I was angry, little person, you know and then I realized, oh, that's nice, this is so dumb to be so angry. And so I started forgiving.
Thad David:What do you think that was? Because it's interesting. You said you saw his name. And why do you think it was that you started healing at that point?
Sue Johnson:Because I was able to yell at his name. I wasn't able to yell at him before because he died so quickly and it's like I mean he could have stayed in the truck. You know, you didn't have to get out of the truck. We told you not to get out of the truck. But I think part of it was that angry, as me, being a leader at that point, was like okay, you made me mad, now you've injured yourself. You killed yourself and injured all the other people. So I was just mad and I think a lot of, I think a lot of guilt is part of that associated with that.
Sue Johnson:I mean, I think I talk for most veterans of when they lose a friend as a comrade and arms. You lose a friend, like you have this guilt thing going on. But I don't know if it was guilt, I just just hang with the whole time for years I think. Finally I was like, oh, you probably need to forgive them. And you know I have on my wall. I have a you know I took you know how they have the little transparent. You could mark the wall you know, scribble the name. So I have that with my words and stuff like that, and I think I look at that and go, okay, yeah, so I started healing and forgiving and I think that helped me be a better leader in Team Rubicon.
Sue Johnson:It kind of helped me heal a part of me, that that I didn't want to be mad anymore. So I was like I don't want to be mad anymore, so it's like it's okay. But I, you know, I'd gone through quite a bit, you know, from 2009 to you know, I really went through a huge time in my life where I was like, oh, and 2010, 2011 is when I finally, you know, I went and got help, you know, and I realized that, oh, probably I need therapy and it was the best thing I ever did, absolutely. And I, you know, I have friends that I was like, yeah, I'm not your therapist, you probably need one. You know he was looking at me like, no, I'm dead serious, I'm not kidding. It's like you, your friends can't help you deal with some of the stuff that they're trained to deal with.
Thad David:So, I think for that I want to ask. I made a note. I'm going to have another question with that, but there was something intriguing about what you mentioned and if I'm off base, let me know but it sounded almost like you had a large period of time of several years where you were dealing with a lot of PTSD or symptoms of it that you didn't know that that's what it was.
Sue Johnson:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Sue Johnson:Like I got out of the military, I wanted to be in 30 years. I wanted to be the Sergeant Major of the Army. That was my goal, but medically I couldn't be a leader of soldiers anymore, and so I felt like this was the best option, not for me particular, but because I couldn't be a, I couldn't be the in seal that that my soldiers would need, and so I had to make that. It was a hard decision. It was a really hard decision, yeah, yeah, so, and it took me, yeah, so my wife passed away in 2009. That's what took me. That's just spiraled me out of control and it's like, okay, I need to get help.
Sue Johnson:Like I, this is time, and I think it's like, you know, not that death is great, but I think her passing away made me realize that I was struggling this whole time and I didn't realize it, but that was the catalyst of me trying to finally getting help, and so I took that time to figure out what is. Am I perfectly healed? Absolutely not. Do we still have a lot to work on? Absolutely, in our lives, and I think everything I do since then I've given back to organizations, to other people and my friends. You know, they kind of like me, you know, because I'm a really good chef. But I just think it was one of those things that you know. If I don't think, if she had not passed away, I think I still would probably have those problems. Or if I had not gone to Team Rubicon, to Marcel's, Illinois, and did this, saw the wall, I don't think I would have ever forgiven. You know, fill up. But I was just like, oh, like huh, there's something that was, you know, slowly, but I threw everything into Team Rubicon to hide or mask my wife's passing. But I knew it was still there and I think it was a big change in my life, but for the better.
Sue Johnson:I'm sad, sure, I miss her every day, but I think part of it is that you have to. I figured out how to move on and give her what she needed, you know back. So she's like, oh, she's like, look, it was like, oh, you're still being dumb. Okay, yes, yes, hon, I'm still being dumb. But she, I just know she's like you know, I think she would be very proud of what I'm doing. So, and you know, my family's very proud of me.
Sue Johnson:I've come a long way with being a stubborn little kid to where I am today. So you know I'm proud to be part of these organizations that do help people in the worst day and I think that that community draws me back to like being in the military, because Team Rubicon is a veteran led disaster organization but also I was, you know. You know you're involved with other other entities that, oh yeah, people, you are helping people in the worst day. It doesn't mask, it doesn't help mask the pain that you're going to personally, but it helps you realize that you need to not mask that pain and you need to live your life the way you should love it, not for somebody else.
Thad David:Just knowing you and I told you earlier I was talking to my wife about just the few times we've been on the phone. Every time I talk to you or just get the honor to talk to you, You're just such an amazing person. I'm like I just want to go hang out with you Because you're just such a joyful. You're just a joy to talk to you and it's well I. You said you like to think your wife would be proud. I know for a fact that she would be. You're doing amazing things and I'm sorry to hear about your wife passing away.
Thad David:The question I have with that too, because A lot of veterans, I think they can't put a finger on what's going on. I don't know what the catalyst needs to be for veterans, but since you have it, if you look back and reflect on it, do you have any indicators that you looked back on prior to your wife passing, that you look back and you're like that was something, that, in hindsight, that that was an indicator, that was something I should have known then, that it was time for me to get help. Do you have anything? And when you reflect on those times prior to that, no, absolutely.
Sue Johnson:I think that's years of therapy also pulled all that out too. One thing about when I went into therapy, the first therapist I had went back to my childhood. There was a lot of drama in my childhood just coming from a war to our country. It was hidden all this time deep down in our subconscious. It's hidden because we don't want to face it. Or you blacked out half of it. It's not that I was drunk or blacked out, because that's not the reason. It was the fact that I mean, I'm not drunk at six years old. But there was things that I know.
Sue Johnson:I remember as I got done with Desert Storm. I didn't want to talk about the war, I didn't want to talk about what I did. I didn't talk about Phillip, I just didn't talk. I didn't talk to my wife, I was always doing something. Like today everybody says, oh so you're never home, you're always traveling. But I think and that's a part of our, that's part of PGS and I didn't realize that that you're not sitting still because I can't sit still. It's part of your PGS, that's part of it. You've got to keep on doing something to feel like you're doing something.
Thad David:Why is that part of it?
Sue Johnson:Because you don't focus on you. You do everything to help everybody else, but you forget to focus on you. But I think and we'll probably talk a little bit more about veterans on the Camino, and I think that's was there was a point after the Lahaina Fires, because I had accepted about a year ago to the got the application for veterans on the Camino and I'd always wanted to do it, but I never took time for myself. But it took all these years for me to finally do something for myself, even though I felt I was doing something for myself with Team Rubicon and Evacuate Our Allies, mobile Medics International going to Haiti and, you know, just going to the Ukraine, that kind of stuff. And so it was just like huh, now that's not me doing something for me, that's me going to help, because I thought that was helping me. It wasn't helping me, it was like I was helping other people. But and I realized that on my long walk and it was just like huh, oh yeah, all right, so better, better year, you know, moving forward.
Sue Johnson:I just think and I actually, you know my psychiatrist and a therapist said hey, you know what? You moving around doesn't help the problem, you're just. You're just in a different location with the same problem and that really resonates with me in a lot of things that I saw in the other veterans that I work with, with Team Rubicon and the Evacuate Our Allies, when I went to the Ukraine, and he's like you know, you see this, you see this problem that keeps it. It's like it's this circle you can't get out of until you decide to make that, make that exit out of that 360. And I don't think that we, we don't think about that and you know I don't think about that. Right, I was like, oh, nothing's wrong with me, nothing's wrong with me at all, you know. But you know, I I'm like, you know, as Pete said, and I truly believe this statement is that I am tough because everything bothers me, so I add empathy, compassion and resilience to my corner.
Sue Johnson:Being a good human is what is most important, and I think that's a true, true statement is that I can lie to you all day, so nothing bothers me. No, everything bothers me, like because I have an empathetic heart. Or I like I want to fix people or things or situations, but I have to, but I can't help anybody else if I don't fix me and understand that, yes, I am broken and we can. We can go on and move forward and, yes, we can still help people Absolutely. But you have got to figure it out for you.
Sue Johnson:You know, as another quote, you can't, you know you can't wait for life not to be hard anymore, to be happy. That's a quote from a singer called Nightbird. She died of her cancer so I followed her to her journey and I think that was a. It's a very you know, it's a. It's a quote that I try to to to live every day and it's hard. I I'm not gonna say it's not hard, but I think you know, I don't know.
Sue Johnson:There was times. That's like somebody asked me you don't have any burdens because on the Camino well, not to digress off the conversation, but there's a, there's a big cross that you're supposed to like lay your burdens down, or like people carry rocks around. It's like why would you carry rocks around? It's already your backpacks already heavy. But people did, they had their names on it. They put the rock on the cross and I was like somebody asked me so you don't have any burdens?
Sue Johnson:I'm like I thought about that. It's like I don't think I do, like I truly don't think I have a burden that I felt like I needed to put on this huge cross out of the middle of nowhere and then face, you know, at 12% downgrade of climbing down slated rock, because all I was thinking about how bad this road is going to be on my knees. But I really thought about it. I was like no, no, because I think I really did a lot of my forgiving way before I did the Camino. But I've learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself on the Camino.
Thad David:So and just because we're talking about it, what is, what is the Camino? For anybody that might not know what did you, because you just recently did- this as well.
Sue Johnson:Now it was an intense. It's called the Camino de Santiago, brad. I met Brad the founder in 2016 with Team Rubicon and he had just started this. He had done the journey, and so he takes veterans from all over the world and they apply, you apply and then you get to go do this, this trek. We started. We did a 713 kilometer trek, so we we walked about 18 to 20 miles a day and I didn't stop. I was like, no, if I stop, I will not get out of bed the next day, but we'll not keep on going. So I just plugged away and you know, I spent the majority of the walk by myself, because I have really short legs and everybody was taller than I was and so I would. Just, my journey was my, our journey is our journey on the Camino, and that's what Brad wants us to find, figure out, and I think it helped me realize that I like being by myself, like I like my life the way it is. I love to have my friends around me, but I also love the fact that nobody's talking to me right now.
Sue Johnson:I didn't. I didn't listen to music because the bikers were crazy, but I didn't listen to music and I did that for a reason because I wanted to hear what was my surroundings. A lot of people do listen to music and they're they're tuned in to that focus, but I wanted to focus on every step I was taking. It was probably the hardest journey I've done in forever and I was just like, oh, what am I doing this? Every day I was like what am I doing? Why am I doing this? I was like set day seven. I was like, okay, I think I can do this because your legs are like my. It took a week for my legs not to be sore. But every veteran I was with they had their own journey and I was like it's a, it's a great thing. It's like I think Brad has a great idea. I have a lot of feedback for him, but it's really good. You know constructive criticism of of how we can get do better. Like, let's cause I didn't know much about it. Like it's like I had no idea what the train was like I did, I did train with the, my friends here in Fort Collins and I trained at altitude and I don't think if I had done that or not been on my bike, which I'm going to biking later, cause it's now what?
Sue Johnson:59 degrees. Uh, I just like I really feel like I don't think I would have gotten back, you know cause I'm in the best shape that I've been in since I was probably in the military now and I lost 20 pounds. And that's a lot for me to lose 20 pounds. And I was, but I didn't and I really thought about every day on the trail, like going, I'm carrying a 12 pound ruck, a backpack. How in the world did I carry a 60 pound ruck at the age of 18? That didn't fit me. It was half my size, cause I weighed 95 pounds to 105 pounds. So how times in the military? How did I do that? But, uh, and I, yeah, I think, I think every veteran should do pieces of that walk. You don't have to do the whole 713 kilometers or the from St John.
Thad David:I think every I know you said you learned that you enjoyed being by yourself. I'm curious to ask cause I know you also talked to a lot of veterans there what did you take away from it? What was it kind of one of your biggest, the biggest takeaways? If it it, it might have been that. And then also, what have you heard from other people?
Sue Johnson:I think, uh well, I follow a lot of sites and I think everybody has. Everybody has their communal journey. Some maybe it's religious cause. It is a religious per se pilgrimage that started way back for you know, any of us were alive and it. I think what it did for me was I realized and I looked at it like it was I had so many forest gum things in my head the whole time I was walking. I really really felt that the communal was like a box of chocolates.
Sue Johnson:You never knew what you're going to get the next day. You could look at all of these schematics of like this year out, you're going to what percent upgrade today? And then you're going to do 18% downgrade, like and it's, this was before your first espresso. Like you'd have to walk sometimes 10 kilometers to get your first breakfast in cause. Nothing's open at six and one and you're like, hmm, all right, yeah, and.
Sue Johnson:But the communal is also about the lot journey. Your journey in life is like. Every step you take in your life is can be unsettling. It could be rocks in your shoe, it could be you have something that's keeping you from making that next step. You look at the boulders and you're going okay, I can't do this, but you have to do this or you, or you just quit.
Sue Johnson:And I think veterans have most veterans have the tenacity to keep on going. I think most of my friends I call them friends now because they love it they had. They loved it for their own reason, I think, even though there was a one guy that you know, my favorite guy. But I think hopefully he learned something that maybe a little bit more compassionate about other people, but I doubt it, you know he's just that type of person and but I think that's what I try to to bring to the table with the other veterans, just like you know what. We're all here for a reason. We all have to support each other because we have become so disconnected with the world of camaraderie, like we did in the military.
Sue Johnson:Even the military today is just like, hmm, seems like it's a more cutthroat. Everybody's out for themselves and it's like, and you meet a veteran today and it's like they're going through probably the same thing you did back then, but they're just now struggling and figuring out their journey, and I think that's what the commuter helped me figure out. Oh yeah, I, I don't have to not like how much I weigh right now, I can just do whatever I want to do and I can train for it, but you can't train enough because you don't train for life. Life just gives you, you know, a box of chocolates, and you figure it out. You may not like that cherry covered chocolate, because I don't, but I ate it probably every day, because it's like, ah, what am I doing? You know it's like.
Sue Johnson:And then at the end I was just like you know what? I really feel like I'm going to be forced scump on day 31. We finished, I was like I really feel like I'm forced scump. I'm running this run for no reason. Well, for a reason, I figured out but and I joked about it but it's like, oh, I'm finished now, I'm just tired, I just want to go home.
Sue Johnson:People thought it was funny, but reality is that that's true. It's like I did this journey. Now what, what's next? You know? I mean, I had, I had a like a blog and I would write about it. Like you know, this, this now is where the journey begins for me. I truly believe that. So I might go back and do it again.
Sue Johnson:I kept saying, no, I would never do this again. The people are crazy for keep coming out and doing it, but I'm going to do pieces of it and I'm going to take my friends and hopefully teach them what I learned out there. And you know, because you can, you can bring you what you need. You don't need everything, but Brad says in his spiel is basically, what you carry your backpack is your insecurities. And it's so true. I was 12 pounds of why am I carrying this? Like, why am I carrying all this? It was 15 pounds. I got rid of all the stuff that would normally carry on a hike, which I don't like, so that was new to me as well, and I was just like, huh, that makes a lot of sense, wow. And so I slowly got rid of a bunch of stuff and I realized that all I needed was these things that would keep me comfortable to be able to continue my journey. And you don't know that until you get on the trail.
Thad David:So tell us some more about that, that your insecurities, what you're carrying in your pack, because that's actually what you're carrying.
Sue Johnson:Yeah, no, absolutely Like you have like some people brought. Like this was one guy and he's a great guy but he bought a 511 day pack. I'm like why would you do that? I mean it was like as wide as I was, like in the back. He's six four wearing a day 511 day back. That was extended, you know, it was bigger than his body sideways, like in the back, and so he was walk.
Sue Johnson:You got really hurt and I was like why do you have so much stuff? Like I just did blew my mind but I even had way too much stuff Because when the guys looked at my bag, picked it up, I said I had two pounds of water in there so I went and eat it because every day we had a place to get water. I don't need to carry all that water, probably regretting a little bit of that water consumption as I right now. But I just think it's one of those. It's true, like I had things in my backpack that it was comforts. I want my comforts and it was like your wooby blankets, like that's what I wanted in my backpack. But then you realize you don't need that. So you're slowly getting rid of the stuff that is familiar to you and you've used for years, and I just left it on the trail for somebody else to find, like water bottle. I got from for years ago a coffee mug, you know a shirt that meant something to me but I didn't really need it. So it's like I left it for somebody else along the road to be able to carry it or not carry it.
Sue Johnson:But that's like I think that's what. That's what I get out of what I was saying. It's like you don't need to carry all this crap because reality is you don't need it. Like you can stop in a town and grab what you need every day. Because I ate snacks the whole time. I carried probably more food snacks than anything because you know, god bless the Spanish, but the food on the trail wasn't that great. I mean, because you know I try to eat healthy, organic lettuce salad, but it was iceberg lettuce and like, so I would eat what I'd make granola bars and stuff like that water, I think that's you know, but that wasn't my insecurity. Those things I needed for a substance but I didn't need was like oh, why am I carrying this heavy water cooler that I've had for years? And it reminds me of a time that, when I first started as other organizations, I was like I still need this anymore. It's like, so I started getting rid of that, and so my backpack began to weigh nothing.
Thad David:How does that, how do you think that translates into? And you kind of tied it to where they came from. But where do you think that translates, you know, from the trail of carrying your insecurities and your backpack into our everyday lives, like what? Where does that show up for people?
Sue Johnson:Well, I think every, every day, you're like looking around, going, okay, I got a, everybody has a job Like, oh, I hate my job, why do I got to do this? And it's because people want money. They think money is going to make them happy. They think that if I have the best job, I'm going to have the best car, I'm going to have the best house. And what I learned from my friends that lost their homes in Lahaina or being in the disaster world? That can be gone in like two seconds. Your comforts are going to be gone and you're going to have to rebuild. No-transcript, those things never made you happy. You miss them now. But reality is did it really make you happy? Yes, you were a first home buyer and you lost your condo and now, all of a sudden, you're having to still pay the mortgage because you didn't have enough insurance or whatever the case may be, because I'm actually looking into that myself. So maybe I don't have enough insurance, because it makes you think it's like your insecurities are okay. People have. You've got to make money to survive in this world. And then you got the one percenters that have everything. And I don't even know, I feel sometimes I don't even think there is a middle class anymore. I think it's Uber-riched to like really, really low income and everybody's living paycheck to paycheck to paycheck, and it's sad because that's people's insecurities and I think that's what makes me realize that when I was walking, that my insecurities is definitely not needing all this crap in my backpack, because it was the nice things in life, you don't.
Sue Johnson:I want to travel more now because I've always loved to travel, but I want to travel because I'm going out and traveling for myself. I want to go visit places I've never been. I mean, I want to go to Australia because I've always thought that everything in Australia is going to kill you and so maybe I just won't go to those places that have things that'll kill me. But I have friends there. I was like I need to take more time to nurture my friends and be a part of their lives, that I haven't been in a while and I think, because of my insecurities, about being able to do those things and building a financial platform that I can do these things, that I forgot to do these things. Like every two years I travel with the friends with the boat trips. It's like the. It's awesome and I realized like I need to do more boat trips, I need to do more traveling and I think I'm going to take more time to do that, but I don't know.
Sue Johnson:Hopefully that answers the question of why I feel like people have insecurities in their life is because they can't, they don't want to deal with the reality of not having something Like-.
Thad David:Maybe think of oh, I'm sorry, no, go ahead. It just made me think of. It was interesting because you kind of looped in the middle class or lack of, but also the over purchasing of items, and that I mean I think we as a society, especially here in America, we would buy a ton and I'm definitely not preaching from the place of I don't buy ridiculous stuff because I do. You know my wife we could. She would have many things to say and it just made me think of how many people buy all these things that we don't need, that cause us to live this impoverished life, that it kind of fuels that fire of insecurity around money. And I know that it's not the purpose of the conversation or why we brought it up, but that's just where my mind went with Right, everybody we follow that whole back thing about we want to be like the Joneses, Everybody wants to be the Joneses.
Sue Johnson:But why, Right? The Joneses are divorced now and, you know, live in separate homes. Like, why are you gonna be? Like, why are you with them? Right Is the year it was down. Right, Turns out, they were never happy all along. Exactly right. Yeah, we just we thought they were yeah well, you do us a favor.
Thad David:Well, you do a ton of work now, and it's interesting that you mentioned wanting to travel more, because just knowing where you've been already, you're seemed like one of the most well-traveled people that I've ever met. You works the Fisher House and you work for Team Rubicon. Now, I mean, what do you do for Team Rubicon? Where has that brought you?
Sue Johnson:Right now I'm a lease employee contractor. When I do, when I'm an instructor, I teach people how to do things with their hands, to take drywall down for the disaster survivors, how to clear their homes. I teach people how to be instructors. I mainly love being chef-ing now because I'm getting back into that world and I really love it, so that's what I do. And then I just signed on as a contractor with Worlds Into Kitchen because I really feel like that's, because in the kitchen, even though you might have a staff of, you know, 20 people, but you're still, what I do is like private chef-ing or travel chef-ing. So it's just like I go and I'm by myself in this kitchen and I, you know, so I have help occasionally I have a sous chef and I would just, you know, it's a great feeling of being able to put a great meal on the table and everybody appreciates it. That's me giving back to, and it's also bringing me back to being, you know, a chef and enjoying that life and not being involved in the, I guess, the politics of an organization. That's still, you know, growing painfully sometimes, but I'm still being able to help the organization and we call the volunteers gray shirts.
Sue Johnson:I'm going back to Maui to help hopefully, you know get their logistics set up. I am the Wyoming Colorado, hawaii deputy log, so I fall, I'm a volunteer on that. That's all volunteers. So I I'm basically a procurement officer for every cash that is from Wyoming Colorado to Hawaii and so I try to teach people how to run their cash right, make sure they know how to do their inventories, and then the cash manager does this thing and then, if they need anything after operations or before an incident or mitigation or whatever, I try to get all that stuff from before and after Going back. We're going to do a leadership conference. We're going to do a disaster training camp which we go out and teach, like we have.
Sue Johnson:Chainsaw is one of our capabilities in Team Rivergon. Heavy equipment operators is one of our capabilities. Core operations, which is basically taking a house down to its foundation so families can come in and rebuild. That's one of our capabilities. So we Incident Management Team. Right now we have members in on the Incident Management Team at the Emergency Operating Center in Maui helping them build up their management Immersion Management Office, basically helping manage all the things that are going on after the fires.
Sue Johnson:So I've been doing that like, yeah, on and off for 13 years.
Sue Johnson:I mean, I was a volunteer for almost four or five years before I even got a contracting job. So I've done a lot of hats in Team Rivergon, but I think my favorite hat right now is being on the disaster training team or mobile training team and being able to go back to roots of being a chef and I because that's where I'm happy. So I want to be what I'm doing happy, or I'm just not going to do it. I think I've learned that years ago but I just haven't put it into play because all my friends are like well, you know, keep saying that you're going to retire from Team Rivergon. I was like, yeah, I know, I know, but there's so many other great shirts out there that I want them to have the same great shirt experience that I have. And I'm trying to keep that fire lit under the new leadership and the old leadership. You know we're still all volunteers and you started as a volunteer. Let's keep this going and be better humans to each other and it's a hard animal sometimes.
Thad David:How much? Oh, I'm sorry.
Sue Johnson:No good.
Thad David:I was going to ask you about the just helping people in general, because that's one of the common threads that I hear from just talking to veterans and kind of that help that they get, that they tend to get a lot out of helping and bringing joy to other people. Is that something that you've experienced with being able to go help people out? I mean, do you get a lot of self healing within just helping other people?
Sue Johnson:No, absolutely, and I think we everybody you know it's interesting because we have kick ass civilians that's what we call them and it also helps the civilian side of Team Rubicon understand the veteran side. And, as a veteran, it helped me understand the civilian side of the house, because when you're away from your country for years on end, you forget how this country was being ran Like. These guys are built as a tech world, the civilians and when I say these guys, that's probably bad verbiage, but the civilian side of the house they were working in the grocery stores. They're working the malls that we fucking hate, hate going to mall, but as, just like you. But they did. They kept the world moving when we were in a different country, trying to keep that world moving, and they've learned how to respect us 100% more.
Sue Johnson:And I respect the civilian counterparts 100% more too, because I realized that, oh, just because you're a veteran, like, oh, you don't belong. It's like and unfortunately there are some veterans who still don't think they should be in the organization. But what veteran in all reality, what veteran wants to be an office manager? Zero, zero, right. Nobody in their right mind, as a veteran, wants to be an office manager, and I never really thought that, I never put that together until somebody made a point Like who in their right mind wants to be an office manager?
Thad David:It's them.
Sue Johnson:Not me, you know, and I get it I was like, oh yeah, okay, that makes sense. But because so there's a need for us to be able to come together because at the end of the day we have we call it, we have a fire pit and we're allowed to buy our volunteers two beers a day, sort of like the old, you know, beer drinking in the military where you were able to drink two beers at lunch. But it's like we sit around the fire pit and whoever wants to talk can talk. But you start seeing a common picture with everybody, like everybody faced that day, not knowing what they were gonna get into, like they had a kid still living in a house, children living in a house that was totally demolished. They didn't have anywhere to live, and it affects you in a way that you didn't realize. It affects you and that opens up a whole conversation of how was your day? Are you okay? And we do believe in wellness because we've lost a lot, unfortunately, of our volunteers that were veterans and we've lost a few civilians that committed suicide throughout my time in Team Ubergon and we're trying to fix that stigma that veterans are just a bunch of crackpots that are mad and angry little humans. All the time it's like, oh no, I was there, yeah.
Sue Johnson:But I think Team Ubergon gave me a purpose again, to be able to be around other veterans or like-minded people, and so I find organizations that are like-minded like me, like this is what we wanna do, like veterans in the community. We all didn't know what we were getting into, but we all have a common goal is to finish and to find out what the community was all about. Just like Team Ubergon, helping a disaster survivor, you go out there and you go holy crap, this changes your life. Hugging that homeowner you don't want to, because I'm not like I like to hug, but it just tears me up when you're they wanna hug you, so you have to. It's like you're obligated to, but it's just like, ah, because your emotions all come out, those emotions you know. But it's just like one of those things that it drives you to be a better human because they just lost everything.
Sue Johnson:And so what I try to do now is feed the masses, of giving them a good hot meal, bringing them back to why we're all gray shirts in the first place and making sure that they know why they're a gray shirt. Is it because this is a stepping stone for you in your life, or is it you really wanna help somebody else Because there's like, and you wanna bring that back to the table and say, hey guys, you snap out of it, I'm sorry you're eating cold cereal for breakfast, but you are gonna go help a family that has no home right now and they're still probably living in their home. So let's bring it back a notch. Let's figure out why you're here, and it's up to every individual.
Sue Johnson:You can't make somebody believe the same way you do, because that's just unrealistic. But can you guide them in a way that says you know what? Look at the good things you're doing here, and not that you want cold cereal. Like, no, I'll eat cold cereal, I'll eat MRE if I have to. I don't want to, but I will and we go to disaster zones. So hello people. You know and I think most organizations I belong to that we wanna help other people and I think the camaraderie of it helps us rebuild our lives or helps us realize that, oh, my life's not that bad. I could be sitting in my house with no roof and with no power for months on end, or I just lost my whole family in a fire, that kind of stuff. So it makes you feel a little bit more grateful for me.
Sue Johnson:I'm not saying everybody's the same but, I, think that's what we try to teach and I think that's why I still stay with Team Rubicon is because I still wanna be able to teach why we're there in the first place. We take care of the gracious, because we want you to make sure that you can take care of the disaster survivors, and I think that's where my hat is now and Team Rubicon is like. I want you to be able to have the best equipment, have the best meal, to be able to go out and move on and get the disaster survivors to know what they need you had mentioned and if you're okay with me asking about it, you mentioned some people in Team Rubicon have committed suicide.
Thad David:Some veterans and some civilians Were there and definitely don't want to know anybody by name, but were there any indicators or signs, because it's interesting that they're in this helpful organization? Were there? Indicators or signs that said out that that was gonna happen.
Sue Johnson:No, I mean absolutely. There was a lot like it's kind of weird because I'm not that person that's gonna talk you off the ledge. I'm gonna find that person that's gonna talk you off the ledge and that's what I learned in assist supply, suicide, something, something. Training is basically what you learn about you and where you can help another veteran, and I learned that I am not that person that's gonna sit on the bridge with you. I'm gonna try to drag you off the bridge and get you help or find that person that's gonna help you.
Sue Johnson:But a lot of people call me because I was that first person they ever met in Team Rubicon, or I was that person that I will have a conversation with you but let me find you some help. I'm very transparent with that too. It's like I want you to survive in this world and that it's life isn't so bad. Were there telltale signs? Absolutely, were there some that were not, that were total shocks? Absolutely, but to their friends it wasn't a shock, which was interesting, because how do I call myself a friend if I knew these were the signs?
Sue Johnson:But again, I truly believe that PTS, once you diagnose, is almost like you're an alcoholic right. You have to be ready to get help, like I can't tell another veteran or another person that you need the help. You need to go get the help. I can't drag them unless they're trying to commit suicide. I can call the police and you know, but they're only in there for three days in which we've done before, but it doesn't. It only either makes them angrier or it doesn't. You know it doesn't help them because you're pushing them to do something they're not ready to do and I truly believe that we're not. Like many people aren't built to do that. Because I'm not a psychiatrist, I know I've never had any mental health training, except for that assist class, which helped me realize that I'm that person that's gonna help you find help, but I can't help you because I'm not. I'm not set up that way. I will sit and listen to you all day.
Thad David:And you mentioned that, just that they need to seek help, like that's them that needs to do it. And you had said earlier and this was one thing I wanted to circle back to from earlier and you said that therapy was the best thing that you had ever done.
Sue Johnson:As in.
Thad David:Just with your life and just unpacking a lot of stuff. I think you had mentioned that earlier.
Sue Johnson:Absolutely. I mean, it was kind of a force kind of thing that I had to do. I actually ended up at Sacramento, so Sacramento Veterans Resource Center, which was a 90 day like a rehab kind of thing. I don't consider myself an alcoholic by all means, cause I don't like right now I don't drink cause I'm got some kidney stuff after the dehydration part of veterans, you know but I don't have to drink to survive.
Sue Johnson:But what I did learn in that is that I needed to get help for my anger, my PTS. I needed to realize that I had it, and I think the VA pushed me into that because I think at that point I don't know if I was close to homelessness, but I just didn't care where I lived. I didn't care. It's like whatever. My wife passed away is like whatever. I didn't have the best relationship with her family, so it was just like one of those. It was just the odd. Everything just spiraled out of control and so I was like all right, they saw it that I needed help and I was just trying to get my disability rating changed, and so I was going through a lot of different things and after that and what I learned was that I can't do everything by myself and I finally got a therapist that and she worked for me from my childhood to present and that was the first time.
Sue Johnson:Cause military doctors, I hate to say it, they start with your military career, like the psychiatrist, I have a great psychiatrist in the and Maui. She started with my childhood as well and a lot of them start with your problem today not where it came from, but where it stem. What's going on right now? Because Oprah has a book I read it's like, where I can't remember the name, but it's a really good read about it's where you came from. It's not what happened to you. That's what it's called, the book called, and I'm not plugging in Oprah, but I think it is a really good read Cause I was like it really brought me back to my first therapist that talked to me about what happened in your childhood that made you who you are, and that the military literally hid all that and all the things I was doing. It masked my problems. It didn't.
Sue Johnson:They gave me a rating for my PTSD because of what happened to me in the military, not what happened to me as a childhood, in my childhood, or that I came from a war or a truck country. They did it because you did go to war, but it took a fight, like it was a fight and it took me, instead of the normal, like normal two years maybe. It took almost seven years to get my 100% and it was a struggle because it was like I had to open a lot of wounds and but it was interesting in my in the time, talking to all these psychiatrists and mental health people, it was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're a pretty fucked up kid. It's like, yeah, probably, but it made me a better person. And it did like I can't, like I don't.
Sue Johnson:I see a therapist now. I haven't seen him in a bit, but I go back to Maui and Napoli start seeing another one. But I just, you know this is something you wanna talk. You know what you need to talk to somebody that's you know it's not biased. You know your friends wanna help you, like I wanna help my friends. I can't help my friends, like, and I had a conversation with a good friend here in Fort Collins and I felt bad because I felt like she personally felt that I was.
Sue Johnson:She thought I thought she was broken. I was like no, I didn't, I just wanted help because you're married to a, you know, a friend of mine, a Marine, right, you know, fell a veteran and you know I was like and I you see all these red flags, you know, and stuff like that, and I love them both and but it's just like, oh yeah, maybe I was feeling that I could help guide them into a direction of do you need to get help? Like, because it's not gonna end well and I see that it worries me, but I think that's just me being empathetic and having this compassion to be a better person and help people. Sometimes it kind of backfires on me, but we're still friends. I'm just still really good friends and I try to step away out of that arena so they can figure out for themselves. But it is disheartening to see it. See the folk. You know what's happening because you wanna help, but I've learned that I can't, I can't, I can't. I can't help everybody. For sure.
Sue Johnson:I can help everybody who wants me to help them, and most disaster survivors want us to help them as much as we can.
Thad David:Well, and going back to what you had said earlier, just it's, you've gotta help yourself first and foremost, and you've gotta start there. And to thank you so much for taking some time and jumping on and just sharing your story. You're just such an incredible, incredible person. It's really just a privilege to talk to you and I look forward to hopefully some more conversations in the future. And I'd love to ask you, as we kind of wrap this one up, what advice would you have to any veterans that are listening I know you've shared a lot and just anybody listening what thoughts, advice, parting words do you have for anybody?
Sue Johnson:I think one of the biggest things I'm gonna get a tattoo, because everybody says, oh, you should get a tattoo off the venerable community. And I said yeah, because I have tattoos that mean something to me and I have this one. That was it was a quote, not really a quote, it was saying two words. She was a psychiatrist and when I first started Team Rubicon and I was like I was very rough around the edges when I first started Team Rubicon, cause you could be cause veterans, you're like knife handing and like what are you doing? Blah, blah, blah. Not. The point was being a dick to people, because that's one of our things don't be a dick. That's our number one rule. But people just didn't get me and I talked to her. I said, hey, what can they change about me to make people look at me differently and not feel that I'm being disrespectful to them or anything? And she basically told me absolutely nothing. You don't make people feel the way you do. They do they feel the way they do because that's how they feel. And I have a tattoo on my arm to remind me every day Dr Del Caprini, who's a mentor to me and has helped me with some other veterans, and I was like, wow, that's amazing. It's like absolutely nothing. And it's like it resonates with me and I put that on my arm when I'm.
Sue Johnson:When I was having some issues earlier a couple of years ago, I was like, ah, right after the Ukraine, I felt like I was, because it was a war zone. So I felt like I was back in that weird situation and I had friends that were just I just didn't weren't getting along with them, and so it's like you know what? Absolutely nothing. And I had to remember that absolutely nothing. But another Latin phrase which I really like is the momento momento worry. It means that we remember that you will die, you would live. It serves a reminder of human mortality and transient nature of life. I encourage individuals to live in the present and value every moment.
Sue Johnson:That's my next tattoo. It's because I truly believe that's. It's like huh, people have walked for me and people will walk after me. And if you look at TikTok and stuff like that, so am I gonna be alive in 2032? Who knows? Right, that's 10 more years. I hopefully. But what legacy are you gonna leave behind with your friends? Are they gonna be? I want people to think. I want people to be honest in my funeral, which is not gonna be really a big one. But I want people to be honest when they say well, yeah, sue was a dickhead sometimes. You know, sue was one of the best humans I've ever met. Sue was blah, blah, blah. But for me it doesn't matter if they say it now or say it later in my death, but I want people to understand that I try to be a good human. Everybody should try to do that.
Sue Johnson:So that's what I leave with every veteran that's trying to struggle, that's struggling out there, and women veterans have it kind of worse off. I truly believe that, but only because we have to be better than our male counterparts. Can you just?
Thad David:I would love to hear some more about that. As obviously not a woman, I would love to understand more about what that means to struggle more as a female veteran.
Sue Johnson:Because we have to be strong. We've always been stronger than men. Nothing wrong with men, but women have always had to be stronger because they don't get the same respect, especially in the military. It was always such harassment there was always. If you're not sleeping with them, then you're a slut. You're all kind of name shaming, right, or they didn't let you participate because you were a female so they didn't think you could do it. But I think the biggest part of it was that there was not enough jobs at my time when I was in that field, roles that I would rather been. I mean, I'd been loved to be a tanker, that'd been fun, you know because I rode around in a few of them. But I truly believe that you know we're.
Sue Johnson:We've lost care in the VA system, which I'm glad. I have a good friend that's part of that whole women's veterans movement in the VA and she wants to know what our problems are. It's like when we say we want a women's clinic doesn't mean that I want a man doctor in a women's clinic. Men don't understand women. Sorry, but they don't. They don't understand what our needs are medically, physically, maybe mentally sometimes, but maybe it's uncomfortable because a lot of women were sex harassed. It's huge Suicide rate in the military for women. It was a little higher last year than it was in the last few years, but it's because they have to be strong and I was talking to friends last night. Women have to be stronger than they were in the VA. Women have to be stronger just because they had a child, they might have a child and they're a single mother Not that I'm saying that men are not single fathers or parents, but they gave birth to these kids.
Sue Johnson:You, if you're a woman and gave birth, I admire you 100%. I don't want to do it. It's like I thought carrying a 12 pound rug for 713 kilometers was bad. Nope, I don't want to do that. But I think women, I think we're slowly getting there. I mean, I'm not. I'm not. I don't have platforms. My persona is not being a veteran. My persona is not being gay. My persona is not being a logistics person in T-Rergon helping people in disasters. My platform is just being better than I was yesterday and I think we have to look at that. So if we focus on the world we live in or the or our typing that the world sees us, then we're not focusing on the real problem out there. The real problem is that, one again, you have to fix yourself and figure out that you know what. You're still a great person even though you're a female in a man's world. You know there's friends that are CEOs, companies, there's friends that are like way up there in the RAN Corporation, and you know. But what I found really interesting is that I belong to an organization that there's one female in a higher tier leadership position that can actually make a decision in a, in a bro club, and I. That's part of one thing I just don't understand. I that I blows my mind. We're in 2023 and this is the organization I'm like. How is that possible? Like it's like and and it's still to this day.
Sue Johnson:I'm not saying that every man treats a woman disrespectfully, but women have to be stronger to be able to survive in had to survive in the military, had to overcome. Men aren't. Yeah, men are sexual harassed. Sure, absolutely. There are men that have been raped. Absolutely, who have, you know, military sexual trauma? Absolutely, but it's more women that have to face that, because it doesn't matter what you do or did in the military, it's what it's kind of like.
Sue Johnson:Sometimes I felt like it's what you didn't do, like, oh I, you didn't come on to my advances or you didn't, you know whatever. And blah, blah, blah. I'm like huh, and it puts you in a different mindset. Like, how can I, how can I be a better person when, every, every time I turn around, I'm getting knocked off this, this thing that I'm trying to build, because you have a job that the point system is 350 and you get out, you get promoted before I do? How, how is that? Okay, it's like this, because there was very limited jobs in the military for women and thank God we're, we're all better now.
Sue Johnson:But I think there's still a big, huge struggle within the military, within just in the world itself, in the you know corporate world, to the nonprofit world, to the you know the VA world Still a huge disconnect of how can we treat these women veterans better, how can we treat them better in the workplace, how can we not have the? You know all these big moguls, hollywood moguls, treat women the way they did, and women felt they had to, you know, scared to death, not, you know, didn't want to. But again, it's about your insecurities too, your insecurities. You wanted to be well known, you wanted to be an actor. You wanted to do this, but I'm not saying it's your fault that you had to, you know, endure this traumatic situation to get ahead, because that person was completely, 100% the male part, but there's also women out there, so I'm not male bashing at all. I'm just saying that's why I think women veterans are stronger than the male counterparts, because we focus on we want to get better for our children, or they want to get better for their children I don't have any but or they want to get better for themselves. They want to progress, they want to get on a higher tier of in their jobs. It's not about the money, it's about making a statement that I am as good as my male counterpart. And it was always you know this big, you know thing of bricks on your head every time you tried to do that, or at least back in the day when I was in.
Sue Johnson:And I think the VA needs to really get a grip on the women and how to treat a woman veteran in the right setting, because you don't know what the female has gone through in their career. Maybe they don't want a male doctor. You know, I don't want a male doctor and I didn't go through half the stuff some of my female counterparts did, but it's almost like they don't listen. It's like one ear out the other. So let's start listening.
Sue Johnson:I think if I can tell anything to the VA system or anybody in the world, it's like, look, let's start listening to these women. They actually have something to say that's not about, oh well, the you know, the Me Too movement or this, that and the other, and I think we forget that within ourselves. It's like you know we are. We can be better than our counterparts, or we can work alongside our counterparts and be better or be in the same rank structure, like because there's a lot of really bad ass women out there. I mean, just like that one gal that has her own clothing line. I mean she saw a problem and she's fixing it, so that's really cool, right, and I think that's where I hope your podcast will start.
Sue Johnson:You know talking about with more women veterans, about you know what was their stand and stuff like that. I just think it's so weird that we're you know we're still there in 2023. I'm like, why are we still here, being pushed aside Like it was nothing? But again, I'm not a platform kind of person because everybody asks oh, who do you vote for? So it's like, well, first, none of your business and I don't really care. And two, that's not what defines me. What defines me is what I do now and in the future and do getting better at it, getting better at it and being a good human. That's what defines me. So hopefully, this podcast will, you know, help some of the, some women veterans, some male veterans, and you know, my friends go, oh, my gosh, maybe she's got some. Really my friends. I was like, oh, you got great ideas, sue. I was like, why don't you have a lot of great ideas? This is what I'm going to do, but I will eventually.
Thad David:I appreciate you sharing everything there.
Thad David:For me, that's one that for anybody that's willing to share, I just appreciate being able to listen and understand more, because it's just stuff that that I just can't speak to you because, you know, I had my, my time in and it wasn't I'm not a woman and I didn't have to deal with, with what was done and I think that what's interesting to me is how much I learned and grow.
Thad David:You know, you mentioned Catherine and her clothing line and the stuff that she mentioned just kind of blew me away. I was like I would have never, I would have never thought about that, and so that's what I appreciate is just the learning and the growth and understanding more about it. And I completely agree with what you said about listening to what's going on, because I they say this step one for for helping or changing any area of our lives or changing any. There's just the awareness that hey, this is actually, this is a real thing, it's not a made up thing. This thing is happening and now we need to understand what we can do to shift and to change it. So absolutely.
Sue Johnson:I think it's one step at a time, Like the grimo for me is one step at a time. I can't change the world tomorrow. I'm not going to change the. I definitely not going to change the world before I die. I can change a person in this world or people, but I'll do what I can.
Thad David:I really I think you're doing a ton to lead the way for, for veterans and for just people in general. You're an amazing person, sue. Thank you so much for for stepping on and just sharing your time.
Sue Johnson:Well, thanks for having me Absolutely Love to come back anytime.
Thad David:Absolutely, I'll have you back on, thank you.
Sue Johnson:All right, take care.