The weight of a service member's armor never fully lifts, even long after the battlefields have fallen silent. Marshall Spring, a former Marine Corps canine handler, joins us to navigate the labyrinth of veterans' mental health, illuminating the darkest corners where depression and suicide lurk. His story is a stark reminder that the fight for our veterans' well-being continues on home soil. Together, we dissect the subtle cues of a mind besieged and the imperative call to action for community support, shedding light on the raw truth that the count of veteran suicides is likely more harrowing than we know.
Our dialogue extends beyond identifying the crisis to actively constructing lifelines. We venture into the transformative potential of camaraderie and shared mission, discussing innovative programs that blend adrenaline-pumping activities with the introduction of therapeutic practices. The power of peer support is championed as an essential force in steering veterans through the maze of support organizations. I share a personal narrative of loss and the pivotal shift towards helping others, exploring how the Warrior Path program and other resources can cultivate post-traumatic growth and a renewed sense of purpose.
As we conclude, the realities of post-military life emerge as a collective journey that veterans must not walk alone. We delve into the complexity of veterans' internal battles, from grappling with guilt to the quest for reintegration into society. Marshall provides guidance on reaching out to the Combat Recovery Foundation and the importance of open dialogue within the recovery community. Our episode underscores the urgency of connection and the collective responsibility we bear to uplift those who've shouldered the weight of our nation's armor.
Contact Marshall and his team on their website below.
https://combatrecoveryfoundation.org/about-us/
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
The weight of a service member's armor never fully lifts, even long after the battlefields have fallen silent. Marshall Spring, a former Marine Corps canine handler, joins us to navigate the labyrinth of veterans' mental health, illuminating the darkest corners where depression and suicide lurk. His story is a stark reminder that the fight for our veterans' well-being continues on home soil. Together, we dissect the subtle cues of a mind besieged and the imperative call to action for community support, shedding light on the raw truth that the count of veteran suicides is likely more harrowing than we know.
Our dialogue extends beyond identifying the crisis to actively constructing lifelines. We venture into the transformative potential of camaraderie and shared mission, discussing innovative programs that blend adrenaline-pumping activities with the introduction of therapeutic practices. The power of peer support is championed as an essential force in steering veterans through the maze of support organizations. I share a personal narrative of loss and the pivotal shift towards helping others, exploring how the Warrior Path program and other resources can cultivate post-traumatic growth and a renewed sense of purpose.
As we conclude, the realities of post-military life emerge as a collective journey that veterans must not walk alone. We delve into the complexity of veterans' internal battles, from grappling with guilt to the quest for reintegration into society. Marshall provides guidance on reaching out to the Combat Recovery Foundation and the importance of open dialogue within the recovery community. Our episode underscores the urgency of connection and the collective responsibility we bear to uplift those who've shouldered the weight of our nation's armor.
Contact Marshall and his team on their website below.
https://combatrecoveryfoundation.org/about-us/
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
You can identify pretty easily if someone's feeling really depressed.
Speaker 1:But a funny thing about suicide not funny, ha ha is that sometimes when people decide to kill themselves, they actually display a huge uptick in mood because they just came up with a solution to all their problems that have been bothering them. So it's about watching for those deviations from the baseline. And then the next thing would be you know, when someone's in a suicidal crisis, it's often an impulsive act and so it's happening now in the moment, and I've worked with a lot of people who have lost children to suicide and often I hear I knew something was wrong on Tuesday, I scheduled something on Friday, they died on Thursday, right, and so it'd be about. You know, you can't schedule around it. If you identify a person in crisis, it's got to be addressed right now, in the moment, and then knowing the right questions to ask and giving as many people involved as possible, building a community around them. One of my favorite things to ask people is who do you like to talk to when you're sad? And that I get that person involved as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2:My name is Thad David. I'm a former Marine recon scout sniper with two deployments to Iraq. As a civilian, I've now facilitated hundreds of personal and professional development trainings across the country, and it struck me recently that the same things that help civilians will also help veterans succeed in their new roles as well. Join me as we define civilian success principles to inspire veteran victories. Welcome to another episode. I'm here today with Marshall Spring. How are you doing, marshall?
Speaker 1:I'm well. Thanks for having me on Thad.
Speaker 2:Oh, marshall, I'm really excited. I've heard a ton of great things about you and just what you're currently doing, so thanks for taking some time. Yeah, absolutely, I know you a little bit. That I know about you were a canine handler in the Marines, is that correct?
Speaker 1:Yes, it was.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then I know you just went to a retreat just recently. I'd love to dive into all of that stuff and if you could, let's take a step back to when you joined up. When did you join the Marines? What made you join and what did that look like for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I joined the Marine Corps immediately after 9-11 because of 9-11. At the time I kind of thought it was my generation's Pearl Harbor. And yeah, I was in the delayed entry program for a while and I ended up going to boot camp in May of 2002.
Speaker 2:Okay, so May of 2002, and then how did you get into handling canines and what was that? What was that? Like, I don't meet too many people that actually did that.
Speaker 1:So my first choice of MOS for the Marine Corps was I wanted to be a medic and they told me we don't have medics and I said okay and they said we have MPs and that sounded interesting. So I became an MP military police and then they and during MP school they asked for people to apply to be canine handlers. There was an application process and SA and an oral board and they selected four of us to go on to canine school and did that, went to school and worked as an explosive detection dog handler for my entire enlistment.
Speaker 2:Wow, how was the schooling for that? To get trained up to actually handle canines?
Speaker 1:It was a great school. It was particularly fun for me because the Marine Corps is the only branch that pipelines directly into military police school. For the other branches you have to be an MP for a while and then usually, once you're an NCO, you can apply to go to canine school and the school is on an air force base. So after going to Marine Corps boot camp and then MCT and then military police school, going to an air force school with a bunch of NCOs was a total change in my experience up to that point and got treated a lot differently in that school than I had been being treated up to that point. So I had a blast down in Lackland Air Force Base in Texas.
Speaker 2:So I take it, because you had a blast, you got treated with a higher level of respect, is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because everyone else is an NCO. It was a bunch of sergeants and staff sergeants in the school, so there was I don't know how to say it just a lot less. There was a lot nicer.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, that I wonder. It makes me wonder because you always hear great, wonderful things about the air force, about every. I always tell people if you're smart, go into the air force. You're much smarter than me. But was it? Did it have anything to do with the fact that it was an air force school as well? Do you think that it just wasn't just that in your face, or was it just the NCO portion?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I would also with it. I don't know why my bubble just popped over of my shoulder. I don't know. With it being an air force school, it was a much more mellow experience than the Marine Corps schools I'd been into up to that point, and the food was better.
Speaker 2:I bet that's well good for you. And so you did that, and then you eventually made your way over to Iraq.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was deployed to Iraq 2004, 2005 to the Ramadi area.
Speaker 2:Okay, ramadi was a busy place to be spending some time.
Speaker 1:It was a kinetic deployment, had a lot of interaction with locals, both positive and less positive.
Speaker 2:Okay, what was your? How would you summarize that whole deployment? What was it like, Especially handling canines and that your bomb detection is that correct?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I would often be out in front of patrols sweeping for explosives. You know, force protection was really what I spent my time doing and I worked with a couple of generals jumps their security details, but because I was an attachable asset, I was a force multiplier. I didn't spend all my time working with one group. It was. We have all different kinds of units come by and request a canine and we go out on their missions. So that was a great opportunity to support a lot of different units and do a lot of different type of mission sets.
Speaker 2:How was it bouncing from team to team? Because you do so much training, going up to a whole deployment, that everybody spends so much time being with their teams, whereas it seems like you just bounced, you would be in one unit, head to the next unit. What was that like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there wasn't a lot of continuity, and I know now veterans talk about catching up with the people that they spent time with in combat, and that's not really much the case for me, because I would work with a unit three, four times the most spread out over a period of time, and so it was just a different type of an experience, pretty unique as far as Marines go.
Speaker 2:I had just imagined that, just a very, very different way of going about it, and I know you did that, and then you got out. How long did you spend in and what caused you to get out?
Speaker 1:I spent four years in the Marine Corps and, gosh, I got out. I guess for a few different reasons. Probably one of the biggest was I was tired of living in the barracks and I liked to cook and I didn't have a kitchen and I just wanted to get on with my life. Do different things.
Speaker 2:Okay, and now that brings you into you do a lot of suicide awareness for veterans. Is that accurate? What are you currently doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so since 2019, I've been focused on suicide prevention for veterans.
Speaker 2:Okay, and how does that work? What does that look like? And how does it go? I'm very curious to learn about what you do with that.
Speaker 1:So initially I was hired by a nonprofit to stand up their veteran suicide prevention efforts and then in September of this year I started my own nonprofit, combat Recovery Foundation. Okay, we have a three-prong approach to address suicidality. One is peer support and what I like to call being a resource guide. So to kind of go into more detail on that, there's a lot of organizations that seek to help veterans and that's a bit of a double-edged sword. Obviously great that there are so many resources out there, but a couple of problems with that are one that not all organizations are as effective as others. Some a few are pretty unaffected or really don't do much of anything and just use it as a leverage point to get donations and grants. Another issue is for a veteran who's struggling. You know well, for anyone who's struggling with acute depression, a minor road bump can become an insurmountable barrier, and one of those barriers can simply be the large number of options that there are out there and which one to choose and which one's right for me. And if that veteran should find themselves interacting with an organization that is less effective, that could really sour their experience for seeking resources. It may be the first and last time they do seek resources. So I think it's important to have people who are familiar with all the resources available and that can direct veterans to the resource that's right for them. So that's the peer support resource guide angle. The second thing is what I call advocacy, and that's just the work that I'm doing in the space. For instance, I've been a big part of getting the Veterans Court started in the county that I live in and I serve on the VA Suicide Prevention Coalition doing podcasts like this.
Speaker 1:I write articles and just draw attention to the issues surrounding suicidality amongst veterans, one of which is that it's actually grossly underreported. We hear the number 22 a day get thrown around a lot, but there's a couple of misnomers there. One is that when a person kills themselves or when a person dies of any cause, there is no database that you can plug that person's name into to identify whether or not they're a veteran. So that right, there is a reason that a person might not be identified as a veteran in a suicide.
Speaker 1:Another thing is the coroner is the person in the jurisdiction that determines the cause of death, and that's an elected position and, depending on the jurisdiction, there's actually maybe no requirements around that person being a medical examiner, just kind of like a sheriff, doesn't have to be a police officer to become elected a sheriff, and there can be a lot of pressure put on the coroner's office to rule a suicide and accidental death through insurance companies, through surviving family members. There can be a lot of pressure and in speaking to coroners honestly, if there's not like kind of a clear cut indication that it was a suicide, like a note, or that there really is no other possible cause, it will likely be ruled an accidental death. So we've got to take a hard look at the amount of accidental deaths in an area and understand that a lot of those are actually suicides, and so best estimates are that the true number of veteran suicides is really more in the neighborhood of 44 a day, and it could be higher than that.
Speaker 2:But where did they get that from? Because I thought you were going to when you initially mentioned it. It kind of sounded like it was going to go in the opposite direction and that like there's no way to actually accurately track who's a veteran. I mean, how do they know it's double without knowing who's a veteran, who's not a veteran?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is no accurate way to track it. It's through looking at the rate of likely suicides being ruled accidental deaths, and, at the end of the day, the amount of deaths attributed to suicide vastly eclipses the amount of deaths that we've seen as a result of combat. And so our war fighters are taking their lives way, way more than any enemy of the United States is killing them.
Speaker 2:And I'm still just I don't know why I'm wrapping my head around this idea that how do they even know that any veterans are? Obviously we know that veterans are taking their own lives and we need to do stuff about it, but where are they actually finding that? Because if there is no indicator, if the coroner is there, there's no paperwork that says this is a veteran and they send this body off. They don't even have a place, if they knew as a veteran, to enter it in. Where are we getting this statistic from?
Speaker 1:Well, coroner's medical examiners will do interviews with family members and come up that they're a veteran or if there's paraphernalia on the walls, that kind of thing. Those are indicators that they'll use to say that they're a veteran. But coroner's offices and the way that they do business varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. So at the end of the day, suicide in general, and particularly with veterans, is vastly under researched and we really have no idea how many people are killing themselves of any demographic. It's interesting.
Speaker 2:I had not thought about or considered the fact that once because there's a whole business behind somebody's death and that somebody dies, like you mentioned, insurance, the family that's there there's so many people that are going to step in and then have a voice or want it to look or be perceived in a certain way, which I hadn't even considered in Ziltos now.
Speaker 2:So I appreciate you sharing that and circling back to something you said earlier, which I find is interesting, because I actually did a podcast where I just mentioned recent this one was a recent, but I mentioned the fact that we really don't have a shortage of veteran support groups. I mean, there is a plethora of. I think at the time that I was looking it up, there's 40,000 plus groups and organizations that are there to help veterans and it always seemed like we had a shortage of participation and not enough veterans jumping in to actually participate, and I love the again. Another thing I hadn't considered till you brought it up is the idea of the analysis, paralysis, that even if I wanted to get help, how do I pick one? Because there's well, there's so many, there's too many options, versus whittling it down and actually being directed to where to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Analysis paralysis is a great term. I'm going to steal that and I'm using it. I love it. Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. And that brings us to our third problem, and that's where we're going to. We're putting on events to bring veterans together and and create community opportunities for community, which addresses purpose and belonging. We can talk more about those in a moment and then at those events, we'll bring practitioners of resources to the event so that veterans have the opportunity to track things out that they may be resistant to, to engage in otherwise.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so what are those events look like?
Speaker 1:So we started in September and we're in a fundraising phase right now. But when we start scheduling these things it'll look like there's a place down in Texas that does a helicopter hog hunting and I think you know that's definitely something that you know would bring people together. And so you know it's hard to get someone to show up for counseling or for acupuncture, right, or this, this other really great modality, cranial sacral therapy, which is just ideal for people who've experienced TBIs. Hard to get veterans to show up for these things, but they'll show up for a helicopter hog hunt and then if they're getting cranial sacral therapy afterward, you know, so be it. And it's a great way of kind of getting their foot in the door, of trying out these different modalities. Or another example would be transcendental meditation. You know I can get them to show up to a rappel down a waterfall, right, and then if we're doing transcendental meditation after the fact, so be it, they get their foot in the door.
Speaker 2:That's had me at hog hunt, yeah, which I think is your, is your point.
Speaker 1:That is exactly the point. Yeah, it's a hook, and then we'll talk about this other issue. So I've intervened in over 300 suicidal scenarios and something I found that is a commonality and the majority of those scenarios is a lack of purpose and a lack of belonging. And that's for anybody, but with veterans is particularly acute because we go from a purpose and belonging rich environment the military to an environment that is less so, and our modern culture in the United States has done a really good job of sanitizing our purpose and our belonging and washing it from from the day to day and so getting people together to do something really, really fun and exciting and create something akin to a trauma bond, but kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum, where they did this really fun thing together. And now, you know, relationships are forged through that and that addresses, you know, the purpose and belonging piece through community.
Speaker 2:I feel like a lot of people lack purpose and belonging and it's a very much a societal thing not just for veterans which is as we grow up and if you're not taught how to go get something or go out there and actually make something happen, like set a goal before the military. I joined up, not because I was a man I'm speaking through the lens of why I joined. I was barely graduated high school. I definitely wasn't the person that was setting goals, creating a pathway for my life. It just gave me the aha and just the thinking about just kind of the teach a veteran how to fish versus giving him the fish and really teaching him how to create this purpose and belonging, which is just an interesting concept. What was you said? Over 300, suicide awareness or suicide? What did you call it?
Speaker 1:Events, individuals who were who were experiencing suicidality, that I I intervened with.
Speaker 2:What was that experience like?
Speaker 1:Well, something I love about this work is I never have a boring conversation. It's a lot of problem solving and I don't. I don't do the problem solving, I just ask leading questions and enable people to solve their own problems. I haven't, up to this point, lost anyone. No one that I've interacted with has has gone ahead and killed themselves. That's certainly a possibility. As I continue in this career field, I imagine that that will occur, but so far I've had a pretty good success rate. One of the things I love about suicide prevention is it is so under researched. There's not a lot of money allocated to researching it and it's a very difficult thing to research. There's a bit of a taboo a cultural taboo around talking about it. It's a little bit of an undiscovered country in a data rich environment. There's not a lot of data. I get to have the opportunity to figure things out for myself and make my own observations.
Speaker 2:What sort of and I would imagine, just because it sounds like now you're stepping into a sensitive area when you're interacting with somebody that is considering suicide. What education? Where did you study them? You said you asked a lot of leading questions. It sounds almost like you're a coach or a therapist in a sense. Have you studied anything like that that brought you into this field?
Speaker 1:I don't have a degree in anything. I am certified through the QPR Institute as a suicide prevention instructor. The QPR stands for question, persuade, refer. The idea is it's like CPR for mental health, where you don't have to be a doctor to stop the bleeding, start the breathing, treat for shock and call 911. Same idea with QPR. Then I am also a certified coach. You're right, it is akin to coaching.
Speaker 2:What would be a scenario or an example that you could walk through? That would be that just showcase what the QPR is.
Speaker 1:Qpr would be about watching for deviations from the baseline and an individual, sometimes people. You can identify pretty easily if someone's feeling really depressed. A funny thing about suicide not funny, ha ha is that sometimes when people decide to kill themselves they actually display a huge uptick in mood because they just came up with a solution to all their problems that have been bothering them. It's about watching for those deviations from the baseline. The next thing would be when someone's in a suicidal crisis, it's often an impulsive act. It's happening now, in the moment.
Speaker 1:I've worked with a lot of people who have lost children to suicide. Often I hear I knew something was wrong on Tuesday, I scheduled something on Friday. They died on Thursday. It'd be about you can't schedule around it. If you identify a person in crisis, it's got to be addressed right now, in the moment. Then knowing the right questions to ask and giving as many people involved as possible, building a community around them. One of my favorite things to ask people is who do you like to talk to when you're sad? And then I get that person involved as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2:It seems like you're bringing that belonging in on the back end. You mentioned the purpose and the belonging that as you get that community involved, they feel that belonging and their time of need. Does the purpose come into it? Is that a part of your questions that goes in because you mentioned purpose and belonging. Does that lead them into their purpose as?
Speaker 1:well, we explore purpose often. Very often the purpose that people land on is service to others. That's certainly what made a huge change in my life and it does in a lot of people's lives. Something that you know about someone who joined the military is they chose to serve. That's almost an easy button to get them re-engaged in some type of service to others.
Speaker 2:You mentioned, that was a big thing for you. I'm curious to know. It seemed like there's something there. What was it that helped you out and what was your piece of where you realized your shift in service to others?
Speaker 1:In 2019, I owned a security company. I had a business partner who was a former Marine and he shot himself. It really took me by surprise. It took everyone by surprise. No one saw that coming. I found myself getting pretty upset with the VA and questioning who was going to take responsibility for veteran suicide. I had a bit of an epiphany that I was going to not solely, but that's something I was going to endeavor upon. That was a huge turning point for me in dealing with my own suicidal ideation and my own depression.
Speaker 2:And just your awareness of that. It's me. This is what I'm going to do serve others.
Speaker 1:That I found a means by which that I can serve the community again. Yeah, that was a huge turning point for me, and it is for many veterans.
Speaker 2:But what have you found? As you, it's easy to. I mean, just interacting with 300 people is a massive Matt. Everybody talks about helping veterans and you're actually boots on the ground legitimately helping veterans, and I'm curious to know on that just because we're talking about that how has that helped you? What insight have you gleaned from just transitioning your service to others and really stepping in and helping out?
Speaker 1:Well, it reestablished purpose and belonging for me in my life, and I was working on suicide prevention over the COVID pandemic. So more than ever people were feeling isolated and I had the opportunity to go and sit down with them in their living room and interact with them and touch base with them and then find ways that they could find meaning and service in their lives and it was impactful for me, it was impactful for them. It's never been more apparent to me we're a social species. It's kind of our secret sauce, and we've never been more isolated than we are right now in our modern era. And maybe generations ahead of us will be better adapted to this.
Speaker 1:But those of us going through the transition from being social just 100, 150 years ago the technology was not anywhere near where it is now and people were much more codependent, much more social. I mean the advent of the cell phone happened in my lifetime and the internet compared to where we are now and I don't think we're adapting very well to it. And we need to create opportunities for interactions in our lives, and not just the big ones, not just family and friends, but the micro interactions that we're losing in our day to day like gum at the checkout line of the grocery store or other just small interactions where we have the perception that we're part of a community and we rely on people and people rely on us, and that's missing now and people are adapting well to it.
Speaker 2:You mentioned even just the micro interactions, because even when we have those, we're there and we're not fully present, obviously, to it. What advice would you have for people on that level? I mean just knowing that we need that social interaction. What would you tell people listening that maybe are glued into our phones and we're having issues? What advice would you give to people?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know this isn't a moratorium on technology, because these tools are incredible and what they enable is unprecedented, and I love its ability as a force multiplier to achieve goals. But we've got to take opportunities to have meaningful conversations or meaningful conversations with people. We've got to take opportunities to interact with people and so use it as a tool, but not as a replacement for all forms of interaction.
Speaker 2:And I love that you pointed out. Obviously they're great tools. Like any great tool, like any great thing, it could be used too much, or used in excess, or used in the wrong way could very much lead to bad things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you're absolutely right. You can do a lot of horrible things with a hammer and a screwdriver, you know, but use properly, you can build a house.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the recognition of it and making a game plan of how we're going to use it. That's fascinating. So you just recently got back from a retreat yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did. I went to Warrior Path, which is put on by Boulder Crest, and yeah, they're a very effective organization. Really good work being done there.
Speaker 2:What did you do on your retreat? And just out of curiosity, how was it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was awesome. It was a week long, but in total it's a 90-day commitment, and so every day I interact with the organization and it's about reframing a person's relationship with their past, particularly their traumas. They have a whole concept that they teach on called post-traumatic growth, and this is something I talk about with my stuff as well, but it's about finding the value in your trauma.
Speaker 2:Finding the value in your trauma. What would be an example of finding value in your trauma?
Speaker 1:So my friend Al killed himself and that was a traumatic experience for me and now I leverage what I learned from that experience to help others, to prevent them killing themselves. And so now that I can identify some small pieces of value in that tragedy, it makes that tragedy less impactful.
Speaker 2:Was your buddy Al? Was that the one you owned the security company with?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so you did a week long retreat, and now you have a 90-day commitment to stay in touch.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So every day a new video comes out and it just kind of reinstills the teachings and the values that I learned at the retreat. And then they actually have a whole social media app that you have to be a graduate of this program to have access to. And so right there there's your community and your purpose and your belonging. And so now if I'm feeling lonely or if I'm feeling depressed or that the world is overwhelming, I can show up for them if I don't want to show up for myself.
Speaker 2:How many, and I love that. It gives you that piece right there, and I just want to gloss over it because it's an amazing opportunity when you don't want to show up for yourself, you can show up for others, and I'm curious to ask you how many people showed up or how many veterans were in this group when you went through the retreat.
Speaker 1:There were eight in the group.
Speaker 2:Okay, was you seem like a very big advocate? Obviously, you run your own organization, you started up your own, and what was the catalyst that got other people to show up, just out of curiosity?
Speaker 1:Everyone had a slightly different story, but for some it was their spouses or their children seeing that they needed help and encouraging them to do something. For others, it was just the desire for self-improvement. For me, I feel a sense of responsibility. If I'm going to be putting my hand in the air to help people out, I need to be bringing the best possible version of myself to the table, and I can't be bogged down by my own trauma while I'm trying to address someone else's. So it was about trying to sharpen my pencil and just be a better version of myself.
Speaker 2:And I think it speaks volumes that you do that, because you're, in a way, eating your own cooking and you're going to ask people to show up to better themselves, and I love that. You are yourself, as you put it, sharpen your own pencil, but you're out there getting better, which is a great thing, and I would imagine learning a lot along the way. And so how do people find if someone and this was back to that analysis, paralysis if somebody was listening to this, how would somebody, if they were, said you know what? It's time I want to find an organization, how would they actually go out and find a worthwhile organization that they should go see?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, the simple answer is to look at Boulder Crest and their program Warrior's Path. Can't recommend it enough. But if people are wanting other options, you know there's so much out there. You can learn to play guitar, you can go fishing, you can go hunting. You know there's a lot of options and opportunities out there and that's what we want to do is provide a guide to finding the right resource for you. You know, if you're a person who's lost their faith as a result of their you know their traumatic experiences, then we can find a faith based organization for them to talk to. Or if you know, if that's not their particular brand of help, you know we can find a non, a secular organization for them to go to and, more importantly, help them to avoid going to the wrong place for help.
Speaker 2:Do you think because I'm always fascinated with the fact, you know, you said it seemed like people were in all levels of kind of where they were dealing with their trauma when they showed up to this retreat and I'm thinking about somebody that's listening if they're constantly, if they're possibly processing, maybe I need to step into it. You know, it seems like a lot of times in a lot of ways that we kind of wait until we're in a really bad spot before we step in and get help. You know, like I step in to lose weight, not when I gained five pounds, but when I gained, you know, if somebody gained 50 pounds it's like okay, it's time to change gears, whereas the indicator was at five pounds, and do you find that something that that holds true with? This is kind of we get to a I don't want to say a breaking point, but getting closer to that breaking point before we step in for help, is that more of the common thread?
Speaker 2:And why would yeah?
Speaker 1:Well, that's one of the things that I'm trying to get in front of, and so I'm interacting with some Marines who were in the withdrawal from Afghanistan and they're in their early twenties and for me, you know, if I had someone like me one, two, three, four years after I got in the Marine Corps, you know, putting resources in front of me and encouraging me to take advantage of them, I'd probably be in a better place than I was for the last, you know, 10, 20 years, See what yours is. So I got out well, not quite 20 years ago, 15 years ago.
Speaker 2:So yeah, we're there, yeah, we're there.
Speaker 1:And so that's, that's one of the things that I'm trying to learn from my experience on and do better for the, for the future veterans, the veterans that we're making today.
Speaker 2:And that would be a, I think, a huge thing. I know when we got out, I got on no five and I would imagine yours was very similar, but it was just kind of like yep, see you later. And we legitimately just checked out. I know we had to go through that. I think it was the TAPS program, which definitely didn't talk about any type of hey, you just did two deployments to Iraq. You know, you just went through. You know several instances of combat, here's best practices and I think just the fact that there's awareness of it and then making it okay. You know other people like there's a, there's a pathway that other veterans have gone IEU and making it okay, I could see that as being a huge guiding light. You know, if you can in a way to help people know what to do and that it is okay to go, do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the military's mission is to win wars right, not to create great, well-rounded citizens, and that's no criticism, that's just a simple statement of fact. But you know, 7% roughly, of people choose to serve in a uniform and when these people take the uniform off, they remain some of our greatest cultural assets. But so many of them are languishing through you know depression medication. You know our comatose on a couch for you know, and we would be well-served to rehabilitate those people and get them back into the machine and working toward a better tomorrow for everyone, because I strongly believe that our uniform service people are the most compassionate among us, even if it's displayed in a dispassionate way.
Speaker 2:What do you mean by that? With that, they're the most compassionate among us.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that it's. I think it's extremely courageous to put your life on the line for your fellow human. And so you know, military people don't necessarily come across in the most obviously perceivable compassionate way, but their actions at their core are the most courageous and the most compassionate.
Speaker 2:It just made me think of. And he's a good. He's actually a Marine as well, but he's a bike club a motorcycle club is what how he refers to it but it's a group of some of the nicest people ever rough exterior, yet if you jump in and get to know them, it's like some of the nicest people ever. I would never cross one of them, but you know genuinely good people and it just for some reason it just made me think of that, maybe because Jim is an actual Marine as well and we did some. We actually went. I met him working for a private security company after we both of us had gotten out. But yeah, that's interesting and you brought up something earlier and it made me think of this book that I read recently and he talks about how we all want the cure for any brought up cancer.
Speaker 2:Just like the cure for cancer, what's the cure for? And like billions of dollars has been spent on the cure for cancer and that's really like the sexy topic. It's. The sexy talking point is how do we cure this thing? But he said that I don't remember his title, but the head in charge of everything. He said you know, if we put a fraction of the dollars we're putting into this trying to find a cure for cancer, into preventing it, we would have saved just half of the people, like so many people get saved, just because we got into. But he said it's just not a sexy conversation. You know, getting out ahead of it is not. It's not an intriguing, it's not a conversation somebody wants to jump into because it's like well, eat, healthier exercise. You know where's the other side. It's what is the magic pill to cure it. And I'm seeing parallels with this as well and I love that you're taking that path less taken Like, how do we get out in the front side of it versus being there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's a great point, and it reminds me that you know, if you add up all the deaths attributed to murder, war and terrorism in a given year will not equal the amount of people who kill themselves in a given year. It doesn't even come close. And we've already talked about how that number of suicides is vastly underreported in the first place. So, but you know, the attention is on those more salacious topics.
Speaker 2:And another thing that it made me think of earlier as well was just the military being a business like they're in the business of being creating warfighters and winning wars, and it would be. You know, I met a lady recently who's a sales trainer, sales coach, and so she goes to all these businesses like she works for I don't remember the organization. She goes into different companies all over the country and just trains them on how to sell, and she actually gets contracted out by the branches of the military to train the recruiters on how to sell. And it made me sit back and think I was like man. I never really thought about it.
Speaker 2:But the military, the Marine Corps in our instance, like their job is to sell you on being in the Marine Corps. And it would be very similar to like if you went to a car dealership and you had a salesperson and I'm like no, no, no, you don't want one of these, you know it just, it would never happen. Like the military has to do their job in order to keep and create this machine of winning wars and it just wouldn't be good to step in. And well, it just it wouldn't be a good look, I don't think, but I love that you're stepping in to help out.
Speaker 1:Well, and you know you made the point that you and I are getting old, and so you know it's incumbent upon us, as we move into our middle age and like true, true adulthood, you know, to dictate what our and the generations behind us, you know what the post-military reality is going to be for them. You know generations have come before us and they've done what they've done, but now we're moving into the driver's seat.
Speaker 2:What would you say? One thing that, as I do more interviews and I and I think this is going to be a big one for the younger generation, which is what made me think of it as you saying, that is, you had mentioned earlier that we put our lives on the line and I find, as I talk to more and more of a younger generation of veteran they have. They really struggle with the fact that they didn't. They feel like they didn't get a chance to go put their lives on the line, ie go on a deployment overseas, and it seems to be a big struggle right now that a lot of people struggle simply because they signed up and they didn't get to go into any sort of combat. Have you, do you see a lot of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I see, I see depression around that, but you know that that was, I think that was present for the Vietnam era and I'm sure it was present for the for the Korean World War era as well. Is is the people who didn't have the opportunity to serve, and particularly in a combat role. I think some of them carry some regret and guilt around that and that is its own, that is his own trauma and that that that is its own, that that fuels depression as well.
Speaker 2:It was something that I, again, before interviewing and interacting with people on a deeper level, I never would have thought of. You know, because I never throw shade at anybody that didn't deploy Like man, thanks for serving. Nobody asked me if I wanted to go, I signed up, and it was just. They just said you're going and it wasn't really a choice, and I think that that's how I've always viewed it. But I can definitely understand why there would be some just some hard feelings If you wanted to deploy, like you said, you signed up because of 9-11. If you didn't get to go, there would easily be some hard feelings with it.
Speaker 2:It also made me think of and you brought up Vietnam and I was talking to I know we are coming through, it was Brad, that's how I got your information and he's done so many interviews with Vietnam veterans, world War II veterans and he was talking about the Honor Flight and that the first time they integrated the Vietnam veterans on those Honor flights that he said it was a very difficult flight because the World War II veterans kind of just looked differently at the Vietnam veterans just because it was a you know, they said it was a different war, and it makes me want to explore more. It just gave me the thought here and I wanted to ask you if you've seen a lot of it. But it seems like there's a lot of veteran versus veteran conflict as well, whereas I heard recently some people say whether combat veterans which kind of anybody that wasn't would feel less than because of it Is that? Do you see that as well as where there's almost internal conflict between veterans?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see it happen. I know that also there was with the VFWs and those type of clubs. There was a lot of conflict between the older generations of veterans in the Vietnam era. It's. You know I don't necessarily understand it and you know it's unfortunate. People like to be tribalistic. You know they like to have a group and then a group that's other than and people will find all kinds of reasons to draw lines in the sand around. You know their differences and that's sad and I wish people could could focus on what they have in common more than they have. You know what's what's different?
Speaker 2:And it's man, I completely agree, but finding the commonality inside of it, it just it struck me because there's one thing that I saw and then, once he mentioned it, it almost gave me peace of mind, knowing that it happened in every generation's wars prior to ours, that there, and it doesn't make it okay, it doesn't mean that we don't have something to do. But for a long time I was like man, I can't believe that we're doing this to each other, because it seems like veterans having conflict is like wait, it's. We're not in this great space where we can afford to, you know, rock the boat. We had a lot of veterans struggling, whether they went to combat or not.
Speaker 1:So I don't know if you ever heard this joke, but it goes. What did the first ever Marine say to the second ever Marine? And the punchline is you should have been in the old core, right. So you know, I guess, going back to you know, we're, we're the role models. Now we're in the driver's seat, now we have the opportunity to dictate what veteran culture looks like going forward. And so I guess you know, talking about this is important and you know, and also walking the walk about it and demonstrating it and calling it out when we see it being done wrong is are all things that we can do to try and improve that.
Speaker 2:I love you mentioned that, the calling it out because I think all too often when we don't speak up, that the silence lets the other person know that we probably agree. I mean when somebody, when nobody says anything, everybody that was quiet they see that as, oh, I'm doing the right thing here. Other people agree with me, but the moment we step up and say, hey, let's, let's have a quick conversation, this isn't okay.
Speaker 1:So it's not so well. There's no lack of courage in this community, and so let's, let's leverage that to to have, you know, uncomfortable conversations around being better people. I mean, why not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, marshall, thank you so much for jumping on. I really appreciate it. I love all your insight. If somebody would love to get in touch with you, what are the best ways for them to reach out, find you and to really dig into more of what you're doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can find us on our website here at combat recovery foundationorg and I've got a. I've got an email on there of my my phone numbers on there and you know. If you want to talk about any of these topics or anything else, I encourage you to look me up on there and let's start a dialogue.
Speaker 2:I would definitely encourage you to reach out. I know I've reached out recently and Marshall has been just very giving of his time and conversation, so definitely reach out to Marshall and check out his website and Marshall, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for thanks for utilizing this platform to get you know good messages out into the world.
Speaker 2:I find that I didn't know that I wanted to do that and then, when I started this, it once I saw the benefit of just having these conversations and it's just there's so many people doing great things like yourself and just helping to raise awareness, for it is a massive, massive thing. So thank you Great.
Speaker 1:Thank you.