On Your Lead
On Your Lead is a podcast about the miles that make you better at life, leadership, and everything in between.
Hosted by Thad David — Marine Recon Scout Sniper veteran, speaker, and endurance athlete — the show explores what it really takes to lead when things get hard. Through conversations with elite athletes, military leaders, entrepreneurs, and high performers, On Your Lead digs into discipline, decision-making, ownership, and the long work of becoming someone better.
This isn’t about quick wins. It’s about earned confidence, taking the long road, and learning from people who’ve carried the weight before you.
And learning from people who’ve carried the weight before you.
Whether you’re leading a team, building a business, training for a big goal, or navigating a hard season — these are the miles that shape who you become.
On Your Lead
Dean Karnazes — Thinking Is the Problem
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In this episode of On Your Lead, I sit down with Dean Karnazes to talk about endurance, discipline, and what actually carries you through hard moments.
Dean shares how he approaches pain, uncertainty, and long efforts — not by overthinking, but by quieting the mind and focusing on the next step. We talk about why suffering doesn’t need to be dramatic, how preparation creates freedom, and why some of the most important breakthroughs happen when you stop trying to control the outcome.
This conversation isn’t just about running. It’s about leadership, decision-making, and staying steady when things get hard — whether that’s on the trail, at work, or in life.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
People say, you know, what do you think about when you hit the wall? Um, thinking is the problem. All I do is focus on taking my next footstep to the best of my ability.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to On Your Lead, the show about the miles that make you better at life, leadership, and everything in between. I'm Thad David, a Marine Recon Scout Sniper veteran, speaker, and endurance athlete. Let's get into it. Today we are joined with ultra legend Dean Carnassus. He's an author, uh, one of the athletes that really helped put this sport on the map. I really truly brought endurance running and ultra running to the forefront from running 350 miles nonstop without sleep that I'm kind of excited to dive into. Uh, multiple Western States finishes, 50 marathons in 50 days. And it's honestly the list for you, Dean could go on and on and on. Um, it's incredible. How are you doing, Dean?
SPEAKER_01:I'm well. I'm glad that thanks for having me run by. I'm glad to be chatting with you. We um we spent a lot of it's like an ultra-marathon to get this interview scheduled.
SPEAKER_00:There was a lot going on. Well, and you are coming to us from from Greece right now, back in your hometown, getting set up for an event. How's everything going over there?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Athens is an amazing city. I mean, you know, uh uh arguably the greatest city um of all time. Uh, you know, it's just because it's it's um a city that has such incredible history. You know, in the U.S., if something's 200 years old, we say it's ancient. You know, if something's 2,000 years old, it's not even that old here in Athens. So uh the birthplace of democracy, you know, the birthplace of the Olympics, and the birthplace of the marathon and the ultra marathon. So it's it's good to be here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Uh what is your I was just talking to somebody about my hometown, New Orleans, and just I always like to ask people what's your favorite place to go when you're there. Uh when you are landing in Athens, um work aside, what's your number one thing that you're like you're amped up and ready to go do when you get to Athens?
SPEAKER_01:I, you know, I I like um running in marathon. So marathon is actually a place. A lot of people are surprised. You know, I think marathon is just a race, but it's actually a place in Greece, and it's a beautiful coastal city. Uh, I love to run there and uh and jump in the sea and go swimming. You know, it's uh the Aegean Sea, so it's a lot different than my um, you know, my home state of California, where the the sea is rough. I mean, here it's it's calm, it's nice, and uh it just gives me the chills, you know, to think that 200, you know, 2.5 uh thousand years ago, the marathon started right where you know you're swimming, literally.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's an that's incredible. So no surprise that you get there and you go run a marathon.
SPEAKER_01:Um of course the best way to get over jet lag or um you know sleep deprivation is to go running.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I would agree. Um so I mean, one thing that I I was there's a couple of things I'm excited to ask you about. Um, but if you had to look at your career looking back, what's one thing, one run that permanently changed how you think about endurance as a whole?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I think it was the you know, the first ultra I did, which, you know, to tell your audience the story. Um I, you know, I left to run when I was a kid, and I ran competitively until it was a freshman in high school, and then we won the the um cross-country uh championships, and I thought that's as far as I'll ever take my running career, so I'm done with that. And I stopped running when I was 15. And then uh flash forward 15 years and I'm in a in a bar in San Francisco on my 30th birthday, uh, doing what a lot of us guys do on our 30th birthday. I was in there drinking with my buddies, and at at midnight I told them I was leaving, and they said, you know, where are you going? Nice young, let's have another round at tequila to celebrate your 30th birthday. And I said, No, I'm gonna run 30 miles to celebrate my 30th birthday instead. And they looked at me and they said, But you're not a runner, you're drunk. And I said, Yeah, I am, but I'm still gonna do it. And I literally, I walked out of the spa in San Francisco. I didn't even own running gear, but I had on these comfortable silk boxer shorts, like silk underwear. And I remember peeling off my pants and throwing it, throwing them down the alleyway and just stumbling drunk uh south into the night, into the darkness. And knowing there was a town called Hapmoon Bay that was 30 miles away from San Francisco, I thought, oh, I'm just gonna run to Hapmoon Bay. And, you know, 10 miles down the road, I I sobered up and I thought, what the hell are you doing? So this is a really bad idea. But it just felt right. I don't know what it was. Um something clicked that night. And I thought, just keep going forward, just keep putting one foot in front of the other. You know, it hurts like hell. Uh, but just keep this relentless forward progress and and you'll get there eventually. And you know, by sunrise the next morning, I I arrived in Happy Moon Bay, and you know, that run forever changed the course of my life. I, you know, I hung up my um my corporate, you know, my corporate uh tie at that point and said, screw it, I'm gonna be an ultra marathoner. And you know, that was over three decades ago.
SPEAKER_00:Well, so as you think about that, I mean, was because I know you you talk about this a lot in your book. Was ultra running for you to say, screw it, I'm gonna become an ultra ultra runner, was that a really big thing? I mean, really, did a lot of people know about it at the time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, this is 1992. So I didn't even know about ultra marathons. I, you know, I I thought, wow, I ran because someone told me a marathon was 26.2 miles. I thought I ran beyond that. Maybe that's the farthest anyone has ever run. And then I met these two guys that were training for this 50 mile race. And they were like a different species. You know, I thought, my God, these guys are they're beastly. And I I couldn't, I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of running 50 continuous miles. And, you know, I said, you know, we're the hotels, we're the campgrounds. They said, no, buddy, the gun goes off and you know, you stop when you reach the finish line. And, you know, his buddy kind of elbowed him and said, if you reach the finish line, I'm looking at me like, there's no way this joker would ever reach the finish line. So I went to the library, and I'll never forget there was the Dewey Decimal system, all right, the microfiche. And I looked up this race and I I got the address and I um I filled out the application by hand, you know, mailed in my check, and went and did this 50 mile race, and it was the toughest thing I'd ever done. I mean, I thought I was gonna disintegrate. I couldn't believe how brutally painful it was. But I finished and I'm in the medical tent at the finish, and I see these same two guys, and they're high-fiving each other, saying we qualified, we qualified. I'm thinking, what'd you qualify for? The insane asylum? And the guy's like, No, we qualified for the Western States 100 mile endurance run. I say, what? 100 mile endurance run, like twice this far? He's like, Yeah, buddy, twice this far. And I said, and he in LA, he said, yeah, it starts at the base of the ski resort. The first five miles are climbed right to the top of the ski resort, and then you run 95 miles through the Sierra Nevada. I'm like, those are mountains. He's like, Yeah, they're mountains. He said, You cross a river in the middle of the night. I said, Holy, you run straight through the night. He's like, Yeah, you try to finish under 24 hours, you gotta run straight through the night. I said, Well, how do you see? He said, You put on a headlamp. I said, What, you know, where do you eat? He said, You eat while you run, you do everything while you run. And the last thing they said to me before they left is, hey, buddy, you qualified as well. And when they said that to me, it just gave me the the chills. I mean, I knew that I would never live down that moment unless I tried this race. Like I had to, I had to sign up for this race. Otherwise, my whole life I'd be saying, wow, I qualified for this hundred-mile race, and I I didn't have the guts, you know, to toe the line. So I did the my the first Western chase I did was in 1994.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So you had this 30-mile middle of the night run, 30 birth 30th birthday, which did you have any, just looking back at that too, I found myself wondering. I mean, I know you ran as a kid and then just kind of put up your shoes for quite some time. Was there any inkling that maybe you were going to start running again? Or was it just truthfully, randomly out of the blue at this bar, you were just we're doing this?
SPEAKER_01:No, I mean, there's there's more of a backstory. And, you know, if if anyone listening to this is is interested, I have a book called Ultra Marathon Man that you can look, you know, you can either listen to or read. But uh my my sister died in a car accident, and we're really, really close. So it kind of put me in this you know spiral of uh downward um emotions. And, you know, I crawled into a bottle and started drinking pretty heavily just to numb the pain. Uh and then I got really into my corporate job. I thought, you know, just get yourself into the corporate world and make a shitload of money and you'll be happy, you'll forget about everything. And I was I was miserable. I hated being a business guy. I just it, you know, even though I was successful, I just wasn't who I you know who I was. And and I think it all came to a head on the night of my 30th birthday. Um, and I just remember how running gave me this great release, this great sense of freedom. Uh, and if it was empowering, and I wanted that back in my life. So I think it was, you know, it it although it was a spontaneous idea to go run that night, I think it was, you know, it just my life came to a head. Um and and the bad tequila, one of the drivers. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Which and I love just not to give away too much, because I would say with that book as well, I've listened to it a couple of times. It's kind of like if somebody asked, if if some people like to sit on the couch and just watch reruns of TV shows and movies, um, one of my favorite things is out on a long run, re-listening to good books. That ultra marathon man is one that I've listened to a couple of times. So anybody listening that hasn't read it should go check it out. I love at the end of it. There's definitely a little Taco Bell stop, which it's almost like of course you managed to get Taco Bell in uh after tequila, even at the end of this or in the middle of this run, which was fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:I think it saved me that like this middle of the night burrito. Yeah, it was before there were yells or anything. I didn't I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I had no energy else or nothing like that. So I had I had like$20 tucked in my sock, and I remember going up to the the drive-thru at Taco Bell because it the doors weren't even open, like it was you know, it was closed, but it was uh I went through the drive-thru uh window and ordered.
SPEAKER_00:And just fascinating. I love it. And you mentioned no no gels, another thing. I think that is another question I wanted to ask you about too, because you've seen just so much take place in this sport that you've spent your entire lifetime in. And you know, looking back at 1992, getting started in this 94 first Western states. I mean, what do you think about things that have changed? I mean, what has happened inside of this sport? How do you feel about it? What are the biggest changes that you've noticed?
SPEAKER_01:You know, this the sport has changed incredibly. It's um definitely democratized. I mean, when I first started, it was mostly men and you know, kind of a very obscure sport. And you know, most of these guys that I was running with were, you know, they were they're kind of the you know, the reclusive and you know, loners, if you will. And so nowadays, um, you know, that you see type all types running ultra marathons. So it does, it's you know, it's about half and half, half women, half men, which is I think is great. Uh, you know, it's also become more competitive uh on both ends. You know, that the the slower runners have gotten slower and the faster runners have gotten faster. So it's broadened quite a bit. Uh it's it's big business now, it's legitimate business. I mean, you know, if you look at a race like Western States or UTMB or any of the big races, you know, these are big events. These are big, professionally produced events. Um there's lots of money, you know, on the line uh with sponsorship dollars, and you know, and and there are, you know, when I first started out, uh, you know, I remember this um runner Ann Tracen, and she was just the most badass, I mean, she was unstoppable. She'd win every race, she'd win the women's, you know, division of every race she was in, and she'd win a lot of races just flat out. And I remember talking with her, and she said she was having a hard time, you know, making a living as an ultramarathoner. And I thought, that's crazy. I mean, this woman is, you know, she's a a goddess. And and nowadays, you know, people that are, you know, have some social media following and are decent can make a pretty good living just as an ultramarathoner. So uh it's provided a lot of opportunity for people, which makes me proud because one of, you know, one of my charges is to grow this sport. I thought it's a wonderful sport, and I don't see any downside to more people being in it other than you know, these big marquee races like Western States, it's nearly impossible to get into these races through the lottery system. But I think, you know, ultrarunning, uh the it's a great community. Uh I think ultrarunners are, you know, they're um supportive people, positive people, they're very environmentally conscious. So, you know, if if there's one way you can waste um, you know, eight or ten hours instead of streaming Netflix, you can go run an ultra marathon. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that makes that ton of sense. It is fascinating to think about somebody like Ann Tracen, I think what 14 time champion of Western states. I mean, it's just such a legend in this sport. And to think that she was struggling to make a living is is absolutely insane. Um But if you think about your training, uh one thing I I would love to ask you about too is what is a typical, you know, day-to-day? How do you spend your time training? What is that what does that look like for you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, one, there's there's almost no typical day. Uh, you know, I change things up a whole lot. I'm also traveling a lot. I mean, I still spend a lot of time on the road. I'm going to events. Almost every weekend I'm in an event somewhere uh in the world. So I'm traveling internationally. Uh, you know, if I can get a solid training block, um, I'll take it. But a solid training block nowadays to me is a lot less base miles. I mean, I remember running sometimes 100, 150 miles a week, sometimes more. My body was fine with that. Now that would that would you know hobbler me. So I'm doing a lot less um running and a lot more cross-training. Uh, either um cardio cross-training, either, you know, on an elliptical or a treadmill or um actually uh uh stationary bike. I'm also doing a lot more strength training. Uh I'm never doing something that most people do all day, and that's sit down. So even now I'm standing up. And I have this commitment, you know, from the moment I get out of bed to the moment I go back to sleep, I'm not gonna sit down. So all day I'm standing up. Um I'm doing all my writing, all my emails, all my correspondences while I'm standing up, um, bouncing on my toes constantly.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And I've got this, you know, I've got this HIT training routine. So it's about a 12 or 13 minute uh routine of just body weight hit training. So it's um, you know, push-ups, pull-ups, uh, sit-ups, chair dips, and burpees. So I cycle through that um four or five times during the day at this routine. So I'm constantly I'm it's I'm not just you know saying, okay, I'm gonna go to the gym for one hour. I'm working out throughout the course of the day as well as running.
SPEAKER_00:And would you would you look looking back at the training that you've done, because I've definitely read about quite a bit of it. Would you look back and give uh fresh starting out dean some different advice about how he attacked training?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I mean, I remember earlier I I, you know, uh I didn't know what a training block was. And, you know, there weren't professional coaches, so I just kind of, you know, put in a lot of base miles. Um, you know, I did a lot of hill repeats, thankfully, so I, you know, could probably help my VO2 max. But I didn't know what I was doing. I remember running, you know, I ran Western Stays my first year and and you know, board shorts and surfing in the surf shorts. I mean, I I didn't own, you know, running shorts. Yeah. I, you know, I think I would have taken it a little more seriously. I never, I never raced either. I mean, there was there was one race where I said, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna actually race this, the Badwater one year. I said, I really want to win the Badwater. And I won the Badwater. But other than that, every race I entered, it was always just for the experience. Like I didn't really give a rat's ass if I was on the podium or not. Uh maybe I would have taken it a little more seriously, um, you know, in in hindsight. But the other thing that I'm thankful for is, you know, I've done a lot of cross-training and I, you know, maintained my overall body strength. You know, a lot of runners can't sustain a career for over three decades in ultra running. I mean, they just they just wear down and break apart where I've been hitting it really hard for for that long. And, you know, sure my knees are not what they used to be, and I'm sure I have osteoarthritis, but if you compare me with some, you know, a peer of mine that hasn't run, I'm probably in much better shape than they are.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, absolutely. I mean, just definitely in much better shape. It's interesting you would say that that looking back you would compete and race a little bit more. What what makes you say that you would look back, you would go do that?
SPEAKER_01:I I probably could have had um, you know, I could I could have had uh more top finishes if I'd taken it more seriously. Whether that matters in hindsight, I you know, I mean, I haven't I haven't won as many races as as some runners, but I've won a lot more races than most runners. So I probably could have won more races. For what that's worth, I don't know. It might have taken the joy out of it for me. I know a lot of guys that I ran with, they were hyper competitive. They burned out. Where for me, I've always just loved running just for the act of running itself and the the pure joy of it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I wonder what, in hindsight, the correlation there is between that two, because you just mentioned your longevity in the sport and staying healthy, that not going 110% on every single race day that you had. I I wonder how much of that correlates into not getting burnt out mentally, but also physically being able to hang on and continue to do what you love so much.
SPEAKER_01:I I think mentally more than physically. I mean, physically, I was I definitely pushed it more than I think anyone I know. I mean, I've raced back-to-back hundred milers consistently. I mean, I was when I had my foot on the throttle, it was it was full on. I mean, I was racing way too many races a year, including marathons. I mean, I've run over 300 regular road marathons where most ultramarathoners, you know, might sprinkle in a marathon or two throughout their career where I'm, you know, like I ran the Athens marathon a couple weeks ago. I I ran I probably ran half a dozen road marathons this year, along with probably a dozen ultra marathons.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I definitely did not mean to suggest you aren't foot on the gas at all times because you are. I mean, look thinking about you running 350 miles nonstop without sleep is is mind-boggling. But it was an interesting thing that I I was thinking about as I was getting ready for this interview because when I got into the sport, it actually wasn't even somebody invited me to run the Pikes Peak Marathon. I was a bodybuilder, more of a weightlifter. And I've never run a marathon. My first marathon ever was to qualify for that one. And so it was entry intro into the sport uh was just getting prepped up. And he sent me a handful of audiobooks. He's like, hey, on your runs, listen to these. And one of them was Was your book. And so for me, you're definitely a lot of people's entry into the sport. I mean, you're you're the person for a lot of people that really we discover it, we find out what this looks like. Um, and I was reading about it though, and just kind of looking at your career as a whole, and it was interesting that there is some criticism that I've never even heard of or thought about, whereas some criticism on like how much you actually did win, and you just kind of referenced it that you know you you probably could have won more races if you were kind of up front on that. How do you handle that type of criticism now if you think about it? And I don't I didn't even know that was a thing. Is that something that you you deal with? And how do you handle it?
SPEAKER_01:No, I mean it's it's really not a thing, and I I I haven't dealt with it in a long time. I mean, I think people, you know, like were comparing me with Scott Jurik. Scott's, you know, he's won a lot more races than me. There's no I'm I never would deny that. Um a lot of times the criticism, like people say, Oh, he's never won a race. I'm like, come on, look at my you probably don't even know what I've done or what I haven't done. I've won plenty of races. You know, I haven't won as many races as Scott Jurik, not in close, but I've I've, you know, Scott's a, I think he's a much more competitive and a better competitive runner than I am. I I know he has a better competitive runner than me. So I think I have a good sense of my place in this sport. Um, you know, some of the criticism I think uh, like I said, is you know, people don't know my career. They really don't, like they say he's never won anything. I'm like, come on, it I could go down, I've got a roster of events of races I've run or won. But I I just haven't promoted myself as the the winningest um runner because I'm not. So but I probably have done more races than any other runner. I would say marathon or ultra-marathon, more varied races. I mean, I've done six-day races, I've done um self-supported races, I've done half marathons, I've done mountain runs, I've done trail runs, I've done snow runs, I mean, I've I've done so many varieties of um races that you know I pride myself on that.
SPEAKER_00:For sure. Well, and and you should. I mean, and just to be clear too, because and and a little quote out from uh ultra marathon man, I am definitely team dean. And you know, when I read it, I was like, ooh, that's I don't even think anything this says is accurate inside of this paragraph. Because in my mind, you you're at the forefront of the sport for so like I don't know that the sport would be what it is today if you weren't creating the awareness about you know through writing books, things like that, because I think that was what I was talking about too, is like the promotional stuff around it. And it was just interesting to me because nowadays, if you open up social media, like there's so many influencers that don't even run any, like that just they're plugging the sport and and doing, you know, in in today's age, kind of what you did with books, they're doing on social media now. So I was just curious to if you ever thought about that at all.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I mean I don't have any regrets about it. I you know, I'm certainly I'm I'm winning my age group now, but I'm an old part. I'm the only one left in my age group, but you know, I still win my age group, and sometimes I win the age group um, you know, a couple years, a couple decades younger than me. So I'm you know, I'm I'm still going, I'm still running. And maybe the people are criticizing me aren't running it even anymore. I don't know, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I you know, I would say that maybe they've never really run because I think they always say criticism doesn't come from above, it always comes from below. And, you know, it's uh I'm just grateful for what you've done, and that's why it just kind of it rubbed me the wrong way, but I was curious to ask you about it if you had ever seen it. I had never seen it until the other day, so I was like deeply researching, and I just thought it was an interesting, interesting piece. But I just know this port wouldn't be here if it wasn't for you doing what you did.
SPEAKER_01:So I got some criticism when my first book came out that I exposed the world to the holy grail of of running. You know, I told the whole world about ultra mare or ultra running because of my book, and then people were pissed off about it. I'm like, all right, you know, that's fine. Yeah, you know, everyone has a right to their opinion.
SPEAKER_00:I I you know, well, and I mean, with that too, I I could I could see that's kind of like giving away the the the best fishing spot, letting everybody know about it type of thing. Um and on the flip side though, somebody like an Ann Trayson, if she was around now, like I mean, I think of Courtney DeWalter, you know, she's definitely not struggling to get paid. Uh at least I I hope she's not. I don't know what she gets paid, but it's because of the promotion and the growth of the sport, which is because of your books. So um Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I mean, and you know, there's a lot of open trail out there. You know, you know, give like I I respect I'm a surfer as well. I'm like, you just you just don't tell people if you find a great surf spot in Baja, you know, you don't you don't tell people about it because you keep it for your friends and your buddies. That's cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:You know, or a great fishing spot, like hey, you know, I I found this great with my dad, you know, we're hiking, we found this great pond or whatever. But you know, ultra-marathoning, the more the merrier. There's a lot of of trails out there, there's a lot of innovations and types of races. I mean, you know, there's backyard ultras, all kinds of stuff popping up. So I I don't, you know, I don't think there's any uh shortage of races for people to choose from because I, you know, I brought more people into the sport.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And again, I'm one of those people. I've I've just had a blast diving into it and uh very grateful for everything you've done. You know, if somebody that's never done an ultra or ever even considered it, you know, what would you tell them? Like why should they jump into the sport? Like, why should they push those limits? Why should they even consider it?
SPEAKER_01:I think it'll, you know, if you do something that you you know once thought was impossible, it breaks down barriers, mental barriers. And it those lessons carry over into everything in your life. I mean, I you know, I I do a lot of um talks at uh, you know, running clubs and at expos for running events. And, you know, I tell people they should run a marathon. And they say, oh, you know, what I I can never run a marathon. And I tell them that's why you should run a marathon, because you think you could never run a marathon. And when you do it, you prove to yourself that nothing is impossible. And it it changes, it changes everything about your constitution and your outlook on life. You you know, I mean, I want to ask you how bad did your first marathon suck, because that was not a flat marathon. It was like you chose a Chicago marathon. No, it was pretty flat. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:All of it was it was horribly amazing. You know, the actually, and so my qualifying run was the fall equinox, and I'll never forget. I sat next to uh uh um this girl on this thing, we were all loaded up on this school bus, and she said, you know, what how many marathons have you run? And I said, zero. And she's like, What are you doing this for? I was like, Well, I have to have a qualifying run for the Pikes Peak Marathon, and she started laughing out loud, like just yeah, like, what are you doing? Have you did you do any research on this run that you're about to do? So even that one had a couple thousand vertical because they drove us up into the mountains. And um, but it was it was crazy. And I remember thinking, this is it. This is I even told my wife, like she still tells me to this day, like, do you remember when you told me Pike's Peak was gonna be it, the Pikes Peak Marathon? And it's like, oh yeah, I remember. And then you know, you do it, it hurts, and then not 30 minutes or an hour goes by, and you start thinking, huh, I did that. What else could I do? And it just it's stacked from there. So that was my my first experience. I appreciate you you asking about it. So definitely it unlocks something back to your point that I think everybody should experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I um, you know, the I I would say run pike speak as your introduction, but you know, go somewhere that's flat near sea level.
SPEAKER_00:And I yeah, I I would definitely recommend that. I definitely I tend to go all in on things, maybe a little bit um maybe a little bit too too soon, but I I I that's how I'd like to go, is just let's do the thing. Uh I did I actually I got to run Leadville this this past summer, which was my first hundred, and that was just an absolute blast to be able to just complete it and do it.
SPEAKER_01:So you finished it, Bravo.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh yeah, well, yeah. It was it was a tough one. It it definitely stuck with me for a bit. It was a tough one to recover from, but it was great. I'm excited to do some more.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean it's right there in your backyard. Uh I mean it's not too far from Port Call. And did you get up there and train a bit on did you go over Hope Pass a couple times? Or I'm curious how you trained.
SPEAKER_00:I did uh I went to the Leadville of the training camp, which I'm not sure if you're they that was actually a fantastic training camp. I think that was I would go do that just for if you like running, go to the Leadville training camp because they you actually run one direction of the entire course. And so you you know you cover 50% of it, but you're you know, it's a it's an out and back. So if you cover one version of it, you've essentially seen the whole course. And they did a great job setting it up. I know Leadville gets a lot of slack from the Ultra community, um, but that the camp was really well set up.
SPEAKER_01:Um did you start in Leadville or like or finish in Leadville? Which direction did you go? I'm curious.
SPEAKER_00:For uh the camp.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the camp. When you did the training camp, you said it was one way.
SPEAKER_00:They um they would shuttle you around wherever they wanted you to go. So for instance, the the first night we got there, they drove us out like 13 miles, I think, out to Mayfield, and we just ran that back. And then, you know, you get back in and they had a breakfast burrito's waiting for us. And then the next morning we woke up and they drove us to Mayfield again. We ran in the opposite direction to Twin Twin Lakes. So you get we got to see all of the course in one directional piece, but they just did a good job of navigating it and shuffling us around, I thought, uh, just to gain exposure. So that was a big training piece. And then I really stick to zone two a lot. That's a big, big thing for me, which actually loops into another question I had for you, uh, which you kind of talked about it now with what you do um currently with some of your HIIT workouts, things like that. Uh, but on top of that, if you didn't already mention it, but what's one habit or tactic that people would be surprised to know that you do for training? You know, just that ultrarunners wouldn't expect.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, one thing I've really um gotten into is nose breathing. And just during my workout, I mean, there's this whole school of thought, you know, always breathe through your nose. And these people are pretty fanatical nose breathers, but uh just as uh a means of forced hypoxia. So only breathing through my nose and pushing as as hard as I can push. So, you know, doing hill repeats, just breathing through my nose. And I mean, you are you're at a slow walk going up some of these hills, and your heart rate is I mean, my I get my heart rate to 180, which is theoretically impossible at my age, but you know, I should be dead. But you, you know, you're just boop, boom, boom, boop. And I've never, you know, I I moved my uh my VO2 max up by almost 10 points just by doing that. And VO2 Max is notoriously difficult to nudge at all. And just from this nose breathe, this forced hypoxia, it's made a uh big impact on my overall um level of fitness, my cardiovascular fitness. So try it. I mean, um it's not easy to do because you just want to, you know, when you when you're ready to collapse, you just want to get air into your lungs however you can, but force yourself to breathe through your nose, and it's a lot less impact because you're going slow, and you know, you get you get that um I think a great uh return on your you know on your uh workout value. So a lot, I mean, I'm barely running any base miles nowadays. I mean, I'm literally racing, you know, recovering, uh tapering, and then racing again. Uh so I'm I'm basically most of the miles I'm getting in are race miles.
SPEAKER_00:Hmm. That makes me so are you nose breathing through those then too, or are you just nose breathing in any training runs, or are you just sometimes I shift to nose breathing when I'm racing as well.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, you know, there's a there's a lot of um debate on the uh you know how how nosebreathing changes the uh the biochemistry of your blood. Uh and I you know I I buy into a lot of it. It's it's pretty controversial, but I I do find that nosebreathing uh tends to bring down my heart rate uh when I'm racing. Uh if I'm you know not not really, really pushing. So uh yeah, nose, I I do nosebreathe when I'm racing. I definitely nosebreathe a lot when I'm training. Uh the other thing I've discovered is poles. You know, I I never used to use poles. I used to be like, come on, poles. That's that's pussies. Now I love my poles. Like the pole guy. My friends laugh at me because you're the you're like you used to tell us you know, you we were wimps for using poles. Now you're using poles on every run. So yeah, no, I'm racing whenever I can race with poles. I'm I'm using poles.
SPEAKER_00:Remember, and there's an it's in uh one of Goggins' books where he he was really struggling and and a run, and somebody handed him some poles, and he was just like, I used to hate these, but these are amazing. And just breath of fresh air with it. Uh so if I mean, and just thinking about it too, because you know I go off of heart rate for a lot of my runs. I try to just not let it get out of zone two. Um if I were to go run right now on a training run, later, like I'm gonna go on a training run later today and practice it only breathing through my nose. Or would you recommend I worry about heart rate or just let heart rate do whatever it's gonna do and breathe from my nose and see what happens?
SPEAKER_01:Try to breathe through your nose and see if you can maintain the same pace. Are you gonna do zone two? Yeah. I mean, to me, like when you're running, when I'm running zone two, for me, I could breathe through my nose pretty comfortably. I think the the benefits that I've really seen is when I when I elevate um my intensity. So try doing some, you know, just some far lits or you know, just some shorter um intervals uh at a higher intensity, just nose breathing.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And you'll see your your pace is not gonna your pace is not gonna increase too much. It will initially, but then when you start going into oxygen depth, uh you're you're gonna slow down, uh, but your heart rate is gonna be well, you know, above, definitely above what it would be at normal, you know, at that pace.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So on some of my planned more high-intensity workouts, uh, some sprints, the fart, like just any hill sprints, anything like that, practice it, let my heart rate just go out of control.
SPEAKER_01:Out of control, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Push it, just push it as hard as you can and see, you know, see which see how high you can get your heart rate. And again, you know, if you're doing a hill repeat, you're gonna be crawling. You're gonna be, you know, turtles are gonna be passing you, and you're gonna be it's great.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. People out just hiking past me, wondering why I'm why I'm dying on this hillside. Uh I mean honestly, that sounds really great because staying in zone two for a long time is very much a you're not sprinting, you're not getting the joys of of speed. So that sounds like a really good one.
SPEAKER_01:You'll definitely get um you you'll get a like a runners high um beyond what you normally would at the if you run the same distance if you try some nose breathing. Because your body's just struggling so much harder.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. I appreciate that. I'm gonna I'm definitely gonna dive into that. I I think I've heard you reference that, and I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna see what happens with it. And so you do a ton of cross-training now, um, different things, just cycling. Um but mainly you you find you spend more time just running races.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. All right. What's the most yeah? No, what's up?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, and the mo the mostly mountain races. I mean, I'm running uh, you know, I would say hilly races. Here, uh I've been racing a lot in Greece. We talked about this um before the interview. And there are some great uh road races in Greece, road ultras in Greece, that are um very mountainous. Many more than in the U.S., uh road ultras. And I think one of the reasons is you know, the the countryside here in Greece, there's just there's no one out there. So there's not a lot of traffic. So you can have uh an ultramarathon and without having to worry about a lot of cars whizzing by. So they tend to stage a lot of them. Uh because there's not the there's not a well-developed trail network um in Greece. I mean, there are main trails, but then if you go off the main trails, there's not a lot of smaller trails and they're not well maintained. So they just stage these races on the road, but they're still through the mountains.
SPEAKER_00:Got it. It's interesting, and that makes sense because it just my mind started going to here, and that's the same thing. Like even getting out of my neighborhood, getting into our the city's trail system, I have to run on some major highways, and it gets especially it gets a little sketchy sometimes. Whereas if there's not a lot of traffic, just utilize it rather than build another trail. Let's use this road that we've got here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And it's it's easier to get, you know, your if you can have crew support, easier if you want to crew, um, it's easier to set up aid stations, all those kind of things.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So another level of thinking that I want to, and you referenced it, or you mentioned Leadville, or we talked about it, is just I think most people at some point in time ended up in a in a really spot where they're hurting. And you know, for me in Leadville, it was like mile 80, my quad went out, just no more running was not possible. Fortunately, I was moving quick enough, like I had banked enough time to be able to move slowly and get to the finish line. Um, but it was those were some tough, those are some tough miles. And I can't imagine, I mean, just 350 miles non-stop, uh, you're probably in and out of different levels of pain. Like if you had to distill your mindset uh for those hardest possible miles, like into one principle, like what would that be?
SPEAKER_01:That would be to be in the present moment of time. So when things really, really uh are painful, uh don't think about anything. You know, thinking about the pain, because thinking about anything is a problem. People would say, you know, what do you think about when you know you hit the wall? Um, thinking is the problem. All I do is focus on taking my next footstep to the best of my ability. So I don't think about how much further I've got to go. I don't reflect on the past. I just put the blinders on everything except my next footstep. So I look down and I say, take your next footstep to the best of your ability. Okay, take your next footstep to the best of ability, your next footstep to the best of your ability and quiet your mind. And it it's not too easy to do. It takes a lot of discipline because our minds are so active. I mean, even now, uh as we're doing this interview, you're thinking about a thousand things. You know, what am I going to ask Dean next? What's for lunch? You know, did my wife feed the dog? Whatever. All these things are racing through your mind. And to quiet your mind uh and just let these thoughts pass like you know, clouds in the sky blowing by is not easy. But I've I've learned how to do that. And it's almost like you go into this Zen-like uh meditative state and you forget about everything. You don't feel anything anymore. You just feel like you're uh, you know, a spirit, you know, moving along a pathway. You don't feel your knees, you don't feel anything. Okay. And you know, and then again you fight it, because then and then these thoughts come in, oh my God, this sucks, and I'm never gonna make it, and I'll, you know, and then the cutoff time is coming or whatever. And but again, you you really have to work on quieting your mind, just take your next footstep.
SPEAKER_00:That makes a lot of sense. Just quieting the mind. And it just made me think of one other thing, too, and it's something that I've done um just a handful of of ultras. But I find myself thinking about just the uh two types, and there's I'm sure there's more, but the idea of like running chasing Cutoffs and or you know running away from cutoffs or running towards a goal time. Uh have you ever found yourself in any one of those, or do you prefer? I know you said you just quiet your mind in those painful moments, but have you ever thought about that, just how it feels to be chasing cutoffs versus chasing a goal and how that applies into life in general?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there hasn't been too many races where I've actually missed, you know, been timed out, thankfully. But um I'm sure that is isn't not a fun experience, especially if you still have some fight left in you. Uh but I think you know setting micro goals is always um, you know, uh a really good um strategy. So uh, you know, I think a lot of racers come in with a plan. I'm you know, it uh I can't remember who it was, maybe it was Courtney who said, you know, plan the race and race the plan. But for me, every time I have a plan, it's then I need a plan B because plan A doesn't go how it was supposed to go. And then plan B you know falls apart, and then I've got plan C. So, you know, I have I have some time goals, but I try um to adhere to those loosely until you're within you know gravitational pull of the finish line. You usually know by that, you know, if it's like lead vote by uh you know, twin lights on the way back, is it gonna be a good run or not? You know, and then when you get to Mayfair, fuck yeah, I got it in me. I'm I'm you know, I'm gonna turn on the afterburners, or you're just gonna say, I'm I'm cooked, there's nothing left in the in the tank, and I'm gonna walk it in and you know, thank God I made it before the cutoff. I'm gonna get that belt, you know, like that diesel plate buckle, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, that's the uh I haven't but been fortunate enough not to get caught into any cutoffs, but it's definitely something just you know it let just then on an out and back, you know, any out and back race where you end up seeing people that it's like, okay, this person's in a different mindset than I am right now. And that I like I never want I want everybody to finish and do well. But it's just where I just find myself thinking about it on those big because you're out there all for many, many hours. And so that's just something that that comes to my mind is is just comparing it. That you know, are you running away from things or running towards something and just that different feel that it brings to the table? Um yeah. What are you most excited about right now? What are we gonna look forward to seeing from Dean? I mean, John, just so many, so many things with your life. Um, what are you most excited about?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I have I have this dream. Um, I was planning with my friend, another ultramarathoner, Charlie Engel, to run from the the lowest point on earth to the highest point on earth. So you probably know the highest point on earth. It's not a trick question. Yeah, Mount Everest. To know the lowest point on earth.
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:It's um uh the Dead Sea in Jordan.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So starting at the Dead Sea and running to the top of Everest. I mean, obviously not, you know, running as high as we can, definitely the Kathmandu, maybe to base camp, uh at least shuffling as fast as you can to you know to get to base camp, and then yeah, obviously, you know, climbing to the top of Everest, but you know, that that's our goal.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So when is this? It sounds like this is happening. When is this gonna take place?
SPEAKER_01:It was uh in 2025. Okay. Now it was in 2026, but uh probably in 2027.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it's just it's such a tricky thing to line up all the um the passports and the permits and you know the the route, the quickest route goes through Iraq and Iran. And you know, the those are not stable countries. So the more northern route goes um through the stand, so through Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan, and that adds a lot of of distance and a lot of complexities.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And so are you all just navigating, getting through Iraq and Iran right now? Is that the We're coming?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we have a plan A, which is going through Iraq and Iran, then we have a plan B, which is you know, this more northern route. And then, you know, Charlie Charlie's got this plan C that I don't want any part of, but he's like, let's just get in a a kayak and we're gonna row across the Indian Ocean, and then we won't have we can that's yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I I love that. So what is that distance? Like, what is that timeframe? Like, what is the distance from that Dead Sea to Everest?
SPEAKER_01:It's it's about um uh 3,000 miles. So it's like running across the US if you can go through Iraq and Iran, and it's about 5,000 miles if you can't. And it's much more mount, it's much more mountainous. And you know, the part of the tricky thing is, you know, there's a you have to arrive at base camp within a certain window, you know, to climb Everest. So you can't you can't miss that window or else you know the storms come in, you're shut down for the year. Trying to plan how to get there within that window isn't is you know the the real complex thing.
SPEAKER_00:What have you guys logistically juggled if you were to make it through Iraq and Iran, that 3,000 miles? What does that time frame look like? That's um it's about 75 days. Okay. Yeah. Oh, when you ran across the US, that's what that's about how long it took you as well? Yeah, that was about all, yeah. Um which is I mean, just to talk about another amazing feat that we didn't even talk about earlier, running across the US. Uh and so you think you'll be able to, you guys are gonna plan on that 50-ish. I think you'll rent you ran like 40 to 50 miles a day type of thing?
SPEAKER_01:That'd be the yeah, that'd be our plan. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I'll tell you, I you know, I ran 50 marathons and 50 all the 50 US stakes in 50 days, but that was that was a little tougher, I think, than running across the U.S. because of the logistics. You know, every day after I finished the marathon, we'd have to move around. Like some days we'd drive for eight or ten hours in a school bus after running a marathon. Where when I ran across the U.S., I kind of just, you know, where we stopped, we kind of slept right there, got up the next morning and and kept going. So there's a lot less moving around, and it seems to make it easier.
SPEAKER_00:I could see that. Well, and then navigating Alaska, Hawaii, because those are that's a I would imagine that that just threw a big curveball into it. Um interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I ran the I ran the San Francisco marathon, then I swam to Hawaii and and and then from there I said Charlie out of his way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was just gonna say, Charlie, that's that was his game plan. We gotta swim there to make this happen.
SPEAKER_01:Um that's no yeah, those two flights were tough because um, you know, running the marathon, getting on a plane, you know, flying to Hawaii, running, and then getting on a plane, flying to Alaska, and then getting on a plane and flying to Seattle. Uh that was that was tough.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think about, and it's it's fascinating to think about this, that how we look at what's possible and how you look at what's possible, and then you do it. Like, oh, what else could we do? And it's, you know, logistically speaking, navig connecting all those flights, not having any delays, not having any flight cancellations, like so many variables out of your control that you you know manage to sync up with. And now, more extreme thing, let's see if we can talk to these two countries that you know, relationship-wise, conflict-wise, all these things going on, uh, and see if you can navigate that so you can get passage through.
SPEAKER_01:So, well, I mean, then you know, the ironic thing is that uh I've mentioned this in a couple of interviews um before, and I've gotten so many messages from people in those two countries, uh, mainly Iran, that have said, hey, Dean, you guys show up at our border and we will escort you across our country with a hundred runners surrounding you. They're like, Well, come, we're runners just like you guys, we love you. Let's do this. Let's do it for humanity.
SPEAKER_00:So, I think that would be that gives me chills. I'm sorry, I cut you off.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. But the State Department's not buying into my? Well, they're they're just saying, like, are they gonna stop uh terrorists, you know, these hundred runners? And uh, you know, I I don't know. I mean, I see it both ways. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Do you have to get the State Department approval?
SPEAKER_01:You don't have to, but it's good to have their blessing because I mean, you know, if if you don't have their blessing, you know, we're U.S. citizens, so they're gonna come to your support if but if if you do it without their blessing, you know, you're kind of on your own.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. So having their blessing.
SPEAKER_01:There's a lot of benefits to being a U.S. citizen.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And having the blessing to go do that. You know, I I do hope they're they allow you to to knock that out because that what an incredible journey. Uh the lowest point to the highest point. And I don't know, and I quickly when I Google it, uh what is that elevation at the Dead Sea?
SPEAKER_01:Uh it's my I think it's minus. I can't remember exactly myself, but I know it's I think it's 450 feet below sea level.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So it's not there. I mean, it's uh below sea level, all the way up. And then you are you gonna go like the goal is to summit Everest? Summit Everest, yeah. Oh yeah. What an epic journey. Would the plan be to I mean it build a social media following? Are we gonna be able to watch it? Uh get updates on it each day.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I mean, we hope to have a film crew with us, at least part of the way. So um, and the you know, and um Charlie actually is a documentarian, so he, you know, we could film each other as well. So we definitely, you know, we'll we'll make it a public um sort of thing. And yeah. And you know, if you want to come, if you want to come crew for us, you're welcome.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, man, I would I was just gonna say I would love to uh make it out there, see if I can see what I can do, which part of the journey. Um, but it sounds like you're gonna have tons of people from all over the world. And again, the impact that you've had on running.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's part of the beauty of it. You know, I think that um it you know, running is something that a commonality that all humans share. I mean, let's face it, there's so many things in this world that divide us, right? I mean, you know, the language we speak, um our nationality, the color of our skin, the God we worship, whatever, socioeconomic level. But running is a great unifier. You know, when we run, we're it's the same, no matter what language someone speaks when I run with them, there's always joy between us. It's it's it's like a transmutation. It's no words need to be spoken.
SPEAKER_00:Such a such a true statement. I was just I was running with somebody this last weekend. Uh, I flew out to the Western States lottery and I just jumped on the trail because I said, well, I'm here, I want to see what this epic trail is all about. And uh ended up linking up with two other ultra runners, and that was a conversation we had is that no matter where you end up, uh it's just if you're in another country and you're out running, uh you'd link up with people, and it's just all of a sudden you are together and you're one unit. It's hand.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, maybe one day we can we can all share down the Western States Trail, but until then, good luck with the lottery, right?
SPEAKER_00:And it is a that is uh it's wild to think. I mean that one's just I think with the laws in place, that's what keeps it so much smaller. I often wonder if they're constantly trying to trying to get more seats for it. But as of right now, is it 369 that's allowed to run it?
SPEAKER_01:That's it. It's um it's it's a quirk with uh the national parks that you know goes through some national park um areas. Uh they had to they helped like they were not going to be allowed to do the race. I can't remember what year it was, and and they got permission to hold the race, but they said you can never have in future years you can't have more runners than this year. And that year they did it. I don't know, it's maybe 15, 20 years ago. Yeah, there were 369 runners. I know they're trying to buy some of the some private property and potentially reroute uh the race slightly to avoid that limitation. But they still, you know, I I know the president of Western States pretty well, Tilfer Gaylord. And that you know, the the ultimate goal, if if possible, would be more like 500 runners. So it's still not going to be like UTMB.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, where it's I mean just thousands, yeah, thousands of people. Um well, even that. I mean, I there was a guy that uh ended up sitting next to that he had it is his tenth year play at 512 tickets, and he had 79% chance of getting called, and his name still didn't get called, which was just mind-blowing to think about how difficult it is. And fortunately for him, I mean, because he's just a top-notch guy, he's been running, trying to get in for the last 10 years uh into this race. And uh fortunately they put him up to the front of the wait list. So he's he's gonna run Western States this year. But just to think that I thought for sure his name was getting picked, and it was it was not to be.
SPEAKER_01:So well, uh, you know, and I have um a 10-year finisher buckle. I think I've done it ther I've done 13 times. And you know, nowadays that that thing is priceless because it's how can you possibly get in 10? And it's not like there aren't other athletes who could complete Western states 10 times. Yeah, but just to get in, you know, you'd have to be 300 years old before you got in ten times.
SPEAKER_00:Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Unless you're you know in the top ten finisher, which is just uh those times are getting so fast.
SPEAKER_01:So fast. And I mean, you know, the golden ticket. I mean, you look at the gold, I mean, you you yeah. You know, even someone like David Roach, I mean, who's you know, he got in, you know, uh with the golden ticket. Can he do that for 10 years? He's a great runner, but I mean there's there's younger kids coming up. Yeah, so it's it's it's yeah. It's I'm holding on to that buckle. Of all my buckles, I'm gonna cherish that one.
SPEAKER_00:Is that your favorite one?
SPEAKER_01:Uh maybe. You know, Western Taste is my first hundred miler, and you know, your first is always your best. And certainly to find it, you know, to get a 10-time buckle is is pretty special.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it's like you said, that's a rare run. I don't know um how many more they'll be able to give out uh over the years because that's it's such a tough one to get into. It's a tough race, just all around. So that's yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And say I've got a 10-year finisher uh at Badwater as well. I think I'm I think I'm the only person that has a 10-year finisher, uh, 10-year, 10-time finisher at Bathwater and Western States. I don't know if anyone else I know there's I know people that have finished Badwater ten times, people have finished Western States ten times, but I don't know anyone who's finished both of them ten times.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I did not know. It's a big deal, but I don't I don't I'm trying to remember. I don't think there is. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. It's a very big deal. The fact like doing Badwater one, like you're a Badwater champion. You won it one year. Like that's massive. Finishing.
SPEAKER_01:I tell people I I don't tell people I won. I say I I survived the fastest. Badwater is about survival.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the it's just fascinating. I I just didn't know that, you know, and that's what I think is is just impressive with it, and you're very humble with it, but you've got so many accolades, it's tough to keep up with your act like the things that you've done in the sport, you know, and that's what's I I think is fascinating with you is that I mean your your career's ultras, but you've made it an ultra career because you just you're always in it, you're always doing it now. The Dead Sea to the top of Everest, it's just it's it's fascinating. I mean, your your life is an ultra, and that's pretty great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know I'm I'm for I mean I'm fortunate that I've been able to live the life I have. And um, yeah, and I'm glad to be able to share it with people. Yeah, yeah, and and and that's that. You know, I mean, you your story m is incredibly inspiring to me. I mean, this story, Pikes Peak, your you know, your second marathon. Uh well, you know, I mean that like I people say, oh, you're so inspirational, and then I start talking to them, like, God, you're so inspirational. So it's you know, inspiration is a two, a two-way trail.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I appreciate it. And I it's it's it's kind words, and it's uh I just like like you brought up earlier, and you brought up with the one thing I find is a common thread with ultras is just full of good people, just everywhere. It's just really good folks. That it's it's such a great community. I found out something interesting recently. We have a friend that so my crew chief, that's all she just loves crewing uh for Leadville, and she just that she loves ultras. She says, I don't want to be an I don't want to do an ultra, but I want to be around it. And her friend just did Moab this year. And she finished, and it's it's DFL, Dead Epping Last. And yeah, I it was something I didn't realize what a celebratory event that is in the Ultra community. Uh, do you know much about that?
SPEAKER_01:DFL, yeah, yeah, the golden hour of yeah, yeah. I remember when then the whole thing started coming in past.
SPEAKER_00:To suffer the most, that it's like they they did this big, huge like the whole camp, there's a big video of it where everybody shut down and it was like it was almost like she won. If you watch this video of her, you would have thought she won the race, but they celebrated because to your point, like you you finished the quickest, or you how did I don't remember exactly how you said it, you suffered the quickest.
SPEAKER_01:Survive the fastest.
SPEAKER_00:Survive the fastest. Yeah, whereas like to survive the longest is a different thing, and they celebrate. It was an interesting, interesting thing. So we got you uh lining up Dead Sea to Everest. Um that's on the horizon. Is there are you already planning on what's next? Is there another thing as well?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I I I'm gonna um be part of the uh Olympic ceremony in 2028. So if the Olympics are coming to LA.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Uh so um, you know, I've I've carried the Olympic torch twice. Okay. And um, you know, being a Greek uh that was born in LA, so you know, Greek ancestry, uh, with you know, the Olympics began uh and then having it come to LA, uh, you know, hopefully um I'll be pretty steeped in in the Olympic ceremony. Um but that's something I'm looking forward to very much.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. That's I would imagine that that's not something that gets old is be able to be a part of something so monumental.
SPEAKER_01:Uh and and knowing the history and yeah, and and knowing the genesis and going to ancient Olympia. I mean, here in Greece, you know, you can visit um the birthplace of the Olympics, and it's it's it's fine-chilling to go there because you can walk around the ancient grounds, and you know, like this time of year, there's no one there. You're you're by yourself. And it's uh it it's you know, if the if this was America, you know, there'd be park rangers, there'd be guided tours, you know, it'd be buses, and it's Greece. You just go there and I think you pay five euro and you go walk around these grounds and you see where the you know the first Olympics began, the first track where they had the first you know Olympics in 776 BC, and you're just standing there. It's it's incredible.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Wow. Are you I mean my first thought, which I feel it might be very touristy, I'm gonna say it anyway, because I paused with it, was like, do you ever just do a jag around it? Just uh is that even allowed?
SPEAKER_01:Like I feel like I probably can just like no, I run I I run around there all the time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you can go on the track. I mean they just let you go run on it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's incredible. That's so amazing. And so what you just like going to be a part of the history of it and just walking around and part of the history?
SPEAKER_01:You know, part of um the lore, uh, you know, there's a there's a there's a an ultramarathon, a 110-mile ultramarathon that finishes on that and that ancient track. And I've done that, and that finish is amazing. But I mean you literally finish, and there's a couple people standing there, like, hey, congratulations. If this is America, you know, it'd be 10,000 people, there'd be banners, you know, corporate logos, and you just finish this race, but I'm like, ah, it was cool, 26 hours. Congrats.
SPEAKER_00:What's the name of that ultra? If you can give away, I feel like this is that secret pond that you're given of this, the fishing hole, the best surfing spot. Uh, what's the name of that one?
SPEAKER_01:It's called the um the Olympia race. Like ancient Olympia. So it's called the Olympia race. Uh I'd love to see more Americans come over here. I'd love it because it's it's 95% Greeks. I mean, there might be an Italian, you know, maybe a Croatian, maybe a Romanian, maybe uh uh, you know, someone from the UK. I didn't think any there's two guys from the UK this year. Um one of them DNF'd. Um I'm not sure if the other the other one was crewing for him. So that was it. There was no not I was the only American. And I'm not even a real American. I'm like half American.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But I'd love I'd love to have more. It's the Olympia race. Yeah, I'd love to see more people showing up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's fascinating. Well, that's something that we, you know, I read about when you think about Western states, how difficult it is to get into and these big races, just the lottery systems in place. Uh, one thing I do read about is just how many wonderful ultra races there are around the world that nobody knows about or that just not as many people show up to. That there's kind of this horde of people trying to show up to one uh or two races versus exploring the vast uh the wide array of different ones out there. So I think that's another example of just a really cool, a cool race. So uh man, thank you so much, Teen. I appreciate you uh for joining in. I do have one closing question. It's a selfish one, uh, because I did actually get in to Western States via the charity raffle.
SPEAKER_01:Ah, you got in. Congratulations. I didn't know that. Okay, you said you're best relaxed. Yeah, you're the best relax. Yeah, well, congratulations. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Well, is not in the the lottery because I only had two tickets. I got in the charity raffle, so it's that's why it's actually in for 2027. So I have 18 months, which I actually really enjoy that I have that kind of a runway to to get ready for such an iconic race. So I'm jazzed out of my mind. Uh, what's the single best piece of advice you'd give somebody heading into this window?
SPEAKER_01:Train for the downhills at Western States.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:That's that they'll trash you. And not only that, don't just run hard downhill straight, run switchbacks hard downhill.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Where you're cutting corners because uh I'm amazed at how many really, really good runners um just have their quads turn into hamburger meat from these this downhill. Western States is mostly a downhill race. I think it's there's like 21,000 feet of downhill and 16k of uphill. So you're gonna be climbing, but the it's the downhill that uh you know is gonna get you um hopefully a silver buckle.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, that's the goal. Train through the downhill. Train the downhill. That's what that's what I'll do. Uh that's yeah, I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Enjoy the nose breathing. Try the nose breathing and the downhill. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Nose breathing and the downhill. I'm I'm definitely I'm excited to give it. My next sprint is gonna be nose breathing, and I'll be thinking of you, hopefully cursing you during it and then thanking you when it's done. All right. Dean, enjoy your time out in Greece. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for having me on.