Steady Leadership Under Pressure - Christine O’Hara

Some leaders sound amazing in meetings and still leave a trail of burnout behind them. Others build teams that trust them, take ownership, and grow into leaders themselves. We sit down with Christine O’Hara to talk about the difference, and why the “steady state” matters more than hype when your company is moving fast and the pressure is on.

Christine connects ultra-endurance racing lessons from Moab 240 to modern leadership development: decision making under fatigue, staying emotionally regulated, and committing to a clear plan even when chaos shows up. We get practical about servant leadership in sales and in life, including how often to connect with your leaders, how to protect your calendar, and how to simplify priorities so you stop trying to do seven things at once.

We also dig into coaching vs telling, why asking better questions creates better managers, and how high performers can get trapped by over-preparedness and the need to have all the answers. Then we flip it and name what poor leadership looks like in the workplace: low self-awareness leaders who say the right things but do none of it, and fear-based leaders who silence honesty and shape teams through manipulation. If you lead people, want to lead people, or are trying to survive a bad manager while keeping your standards high, this conversation gives you language and tools you can use immediately.

If this helps, subscribe so you don’t miss what’s next, share it with a leader who needs it, and leave a review with the leadership habit you’re working on right now.

Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Charisma Without Self-Awareness

Christine 0:00

One of the worst ones actually is the lack of self-awareness. And what I mean by that is they think they're a good leader. So they say the right things, they're incredibly charismatic, but behind the scenes, they're not doing any of it, right? But again, they think that, but there's no there's no self-awareness, right? To to understanding that they're not they're not really hitting the mark or doing what they they they believe they're saying. So like, you know, whether it's the language of we're removing barriers and we're coaching and developing our people, and it's um, you know, I want to make sure that they all shine and uh they say the right things, right? But at the end of the day, they're they're really not not doing it. And I think the job of maybe their boss or anyone really is to to be aware of that. I always think I think looking at results and actions and and the team under them, like, is this actually happening? Um, because I think that's probably one of one of the worst ones, just because there is a lack of self-awareness, but they get away and they can stay in an organization for a really long time because of them being incredibly charismatic and again saying the right things.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Welcome to On Your Lead, the show about the miles that make you better at life, leadership,

Welcome Back And Training Update

SPEAKER_02 1:15

and everything in between. I'm Thad David, a Marine Recon Scout Sniper veteran, speaker, and endurance athlete. Let's get into it. Welcome back to another episode. We're here again with Christine O'Hara.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

She finished DFL at Moab 240 in 2025. We actually did a previous recording with her, and uh, we both felt like the conversation went so well that we wanted to jump on and talk again uh about a couple of things. But uh, how are you doing, Christina? What's going on with your training?

Christine 1:43

Thanks for having me back. Uh I'm great. I'm I'm doing well with training. I don't have any big races planned this year. I do plan to do some ultras, some running races toward the end of the year. I took a lot of this first half of the year to focus on strength and mobility. So I'm actually doing the very trendy high rocks um at the first half of this year. So I'm excited about that. So it's interesting to see how a lot of that, like strength and mobility, translates into running, which has been really fun and be part of that community too.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

I love that. And just for context, too, because I know we talked a little bit about it, and it's a very humble approach to say not very many big races. Uh, but just for anybody that doesn't know, not many big races is just a handful of 50 milers, which is those are huge, huge races. But I guess when you've done the Moab 240, uh, those are not big races. Um with that, I'd love to just kind of piggyback off of that Moab conversation, which I I really enjoyed. I actually had two people message me today specifically. One is a she's a mother of two, she was having a tough day. And actually, I sent her one of the video clips that we had made, and she just sent me this really nice message that said, You have no idea how much this means to me to hear Christine's message from this. And then a gentleman this morning that was dealing with a leg injury, he listened to the podcast last night, and he said to tell you thank you for your messaging and what you bring to the table. So thank you for that.

Christine 3:12

Thank you. Thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yeah, it was really powerful stuff. And when you think about that and just what have you learned as you've been unpacking and processing,

Moab Lessons For Work Leadership

SPEAKER_03 3:21

is there anything you knew you've taken away from that Moab 240 finish and the experience you had out there?

Christine 3:27

Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it, you know, I've a lot of it's translated into how I even continue to evolve and approach as a leader. And I I think about, you know, my capacity continues to grow as I grow in my career. So capacity meaning, you know, what I'm taking on, whether it's more people to manage or projects to lead, and they're at a bigger scale. And I think that can naturally happen in a career. And a lot of that happened. I was given a whole new team at the beginning of this year at the company I work at, um, as well as my current team, and asked to kind of scale and manage in a different way. And it's interesting when you go back to to Moab or you go back to ultra endurance sports or racing, you think so much of um what we experience in that is decision making under fatigue, but also decision making under fatigue, but also some chaos and unknowing. And how do you stay steady in that? And so one of the biggest things, especially these past few months as we've started the new year, is that piece on commitment, staying steady, that emotional regulation and that continual focus that's so important for yourself, but ultimately the teams you're leading.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

So you feel that that's been a big correlation of taking that away, of like being steady in Moab and staying committed through? How have you seen that show up with the steady commitment that you deliver as a leader?

Christine 4:52

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, it's always been there. But when you go through these races, and we we've talked about it briefly, but when you go through big races like this, they kind of condense your these life lessons and experiences in over a five-day or couple day period. Um, so years of experience get condensed down and lessons learned. And I think how I show that steadiness, we I'm at a company that is growing rapidly. It's growing, you know, 100% year over year. And that means a lot of change. So you're adding, you're adding new tools and resources and you're scaling at a rapid rate, you're adding headcounts, you're onboarding, but you're developing future leaders, you're um driving results because I'm in sales. And so as you think about all of these things, it can get incredibly overwhelming, especially overwhelming for your team. So I think when stepping back, when you think about that steady state, being steady and really just emotionally regulated for your team, they follow that lead. They feel that because they're already, they're feeling impact of change around them. It's not that they're not passionate or don't want to be at be doing what they're doing, but when the change is is so constant and so big, that piece of the steadiness is is ever present and ever important for you as a leader. And so a lot of that has, I think, been made stronger because of Moab.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

I can really appreciate that, just to thinking back at changes that I've felt at companies that um I've worked with and worked at watching how they roll out change, that studying even Kiel from a leadership perspective is a very, very valuable thing. When you think about just leadership in general, I'm curious to

Defining Leadership As People First

SPEAKER_03 6:39

because that I this is uh specifically what I want to dive into with you too, but just when you think about leadership as a whole, like what comes to mind to you when you hear the word leadership? Like how do you define it? What do you think about with that word leadership?

Christine 6:52

Yeah, I think it's such a good question because I've reflected on that a lot. Like, why do I want to be a leader? What's my leadership philosophy, right? How do I lead? How do I evolve as a leader? And I think, you know, you I go all the way back to high school and sports and being class president, captain of my sports teams, and how that continued to carry. And I also go back to like why? Like, why, why have I stepped into these leadership roles from a young age and then continued to in 20s and 30s and now managing big teams? And I think, you know, for me, there is this, it really comes down to people, and it comes down to really bringing out kind of the greatness in someone else, helping them not only understand their potential, but also achieve it. You know, I always say to where I'm at now, and I I manage directors, but my goal when I hire someone, when I develop someone is I want to work for them one day, right? And I think that that comes down to just a really big passion of how can we use people to continue to have that further impact on other people and and bring out the best in in everyone. So there's always been kind of that passion. I think that's been the kind of the link through the high school till now that's carried me and just a big passion for helping and bringing out kind of that that greatness. So for me, leadership is all about people and building connections. And then there's, of course, integrity and accountability and and those things are incredibly important as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

I want to pull back from something you just mentioned, because you kind of lit up when you shared it, and it's very intriguing to hear you say that you want to work for them someday. What is what does that mean?

Christine 8:35

Yeah, you know, I think when I, especially when I hire someone, and now that I've had a lot of different career experiences, working for a lot of different types of bosses and companies and people, as well as managing different types of teams and people and goals and in a bunch of different conditions, I think I've had the opportunity to see many different styles, but also styles that I would want on my team, styles that I know will complement me. But I think when I want someone to work for someone one day, I'm at really at this point now where, you know, I want to continue to be the best leader I can be. I think a leadership journey, you're never gonna fully realize it. It's it's a journey, right? So when I retire one day, you know, I want to be the best leader that I could have ever been, but that's gonna be years and ongoing, and you're constantly learning different things. So when I say I want to work for the people I hire one day or develop, it I truly believe that I am now taking a lot of the different experiences I've had. And I like to say I hire really well. And I get, I get excited about them reaching that full potential and and truly, you know, you can be great as a leader, but to bring up that greatness even better in someone else, where then you you do get to potentially work for them one day is an incredibly exciting and an inspiring thing when you're leading a team.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

And I think that's such a great perspective to think about because you said you're you manage directors.

SPEAKER_04 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

So you've got you're a leader of leaders that are leading other people that I'm imagining middle-level managers that are leading people and cascading down. And so your fingerprints are on many levels of leadership. But I've not heard of it put in that way that from a leader's perspective, would I work for this person? And what would it look like? What do I need to provide for them? And and how do I mentor and coach them to be where I would actually be okay? I would look forward to working uh for this individual as my boss. So I thought that was a really great way to put it. Thank you for expanding on that.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

So you've always had a leadership role, it sounds like even back in

Servant Leadership Starts Early

SPEAKER_03 10:47

high school, you were captain, class president, just wherever you could put your fingers in. What do you think drew you to that at an early age?

Christine 10:55

You know, I think it comes back to impact, right? I uh, you know, I say people, right? Like I really like finding different groups of people to bring together and bring out kind of good things, but bringing people together to drive, you know, when you think of impact, really positive impact. And so whether, you know, back class president days, whatever we're doing, changing the lunch menu or doing yearbook, whatever was important at the time.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

And you think about you know, hockey, you know, Captain. But it's true, like that was whole episode.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

I just love the jump from Moab 240, director of directors, to get the lunch menu. Jet is it's so real. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

It's so real. But it is, it's all empathy. It starts and it compounds. I always say that leadership does compound.

Christine 11:45

Um, but that was whether it's there, hockey, right? I think being being captain of, you know, hoc, you know, sports teams, I'll I'll mention hockey. It's just, you know, I think a lot of it is having being drawn to something like that. Like, yes, the people the class votes for you as class president, the the team votes for you as captain. But I think with that always came a lot of responsibility. And I think a lot of it came down to yes, impact, but also I took a lot of pride in just being good and being consistent. So whether that was always at every practice being the hardest worker, um, whether that was always looking out for someone on the team, seeing if I could encourage them or point something out or bring them into a different drill with me to do um outside of that. How could I kind of create that camaraderie? That was something being good, consistent, bringing people together, those are just core things of who I am, right? Like I want to be better in things that I do. Um, I want to bring people together, I want to be kind. Um and I think those pieces have led me into leadership positions.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

It makes a ton of sense. And bringing back up the menu change for a moment because I didn't early exposure to leadership. It's I'm here to I'm here to serve. You know, I'm getting this role because like the lunch menu, that's something that's extremely important. You know, I've you know, we've I know we've talked about our kids, um, that you you've got two kids, I've got two kids, and like hearing about what's for lunch that day is a a highlight of the day. And if it's not good, it's uh you know, it can impact the day. But I think it's interesting that it's that servant leadership that starts at a young age, where if somebody's first leadership exposure is after that, then they might not have that servant leadership aspect where it's like, I'm a leader to serve you versus I'm a leader because you work for me.

SPEAKER_04 13:49

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Type of thing. So I'm there was an interesting just piecing that together from what you just shared that.

Christine 13:56

Yeah. Yeah. I think servant leadership is probably the biggest, it's the theme, and it you're and you've experienced this too. You see the difference between those two types of leaders, right? Um, people want the title, they want to move off, it's they they feel like they have to have that versus someone who not necessarily has to have that, but their their mindset of what they want to bring to people, a team, an organization is, is, is different.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

So when you think about your team, so you've got your directors, your managers,

Coaching, Focus, And Cadence

SPEAKER_03 14:32

what advice, what do you offer up to them with leadership and how to be better leaders? Like where do you see people possibly struggling and what advice do you give to them as far as leadership goes?

Christine 14:42

Yeah. You know, I have I have people who've never managed people before, and then I have people who've been leaders for a really long time. So it's different, right? Depending on on what goes into each. But one of the biggest themes, and I think we all practice and get better at that at this is coaching. And how do we coach our people and have those conversations, knowing there are different unique things? I think a lot of times where you see leaders struggle, whether they have a ton of experience or are new, is wanting to do too much, whether it's wanting to give too much feedback or getting caught up in some of the performance or the results and then doing seven different things versus what they were set out to do from a strategic standpoint for the quarter. And I think it goes back to when I when I coach all of them, what is the one thing you want to develop in that person this quarter? Bring that up every single time. What are the three to five key strategies that you believe you're gonna hit your results with? How does how does that then dictate your schedule every week and month for the rest of the quarter and how you coach your team? Because things will change. But if you believe in our steady state with those things, you may have to pivot. And you know, that's when we talk about it. But those are the things that I really go back to. And it comes down to simplification and focus.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Steady state and having this clearly planned out. What is your cadence and what is your steady state with how do how often do you link up with people that you lead just out of curiosity?

Christine 16:10

I mean, we talk probably in some capacity every day, whether they're texting or calling me, but I do keep formal one-on-ones where we talk about performance, we talk about their teams. Um, if there's anything urgent, we'll we'll find find different time because I'm I'm pulled in a lot of directions and a lot of different meetings. So I one of my big things is being very protective of my calendar and of my time. But that's very important to me. And I think it is a balance, right? Like I said, you know, sometimes the newer managers might need more time than someone who's had more experience leading people. And so you can kind of balance it that way. But I I sync with all of them at least every week in some capacity.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Which is a very powerful thing. One thing that

Telling Versus Coaching In Practice

SPEAKER_03 17:12

when I don't remember where I grabbed this from, so it's definitely not mine, but uh I loved this definition and differentiator of leadership and management, and that management could be defined as like a good manager gets a task done, like just getting the job done, no matter how it gets done, like did your team achieve the goal? And then leadership is how it felt to get the job done, and specifically how much force was needed to be applied to get it done. And so it it uh what always makes me think about it is like with my kids. If if the goal is to get backpacks ready, packed up, and get to school, how much force is, you know, yeah, not physical force, but how much force is needed to get that done. And I was just curious to know like what thoughts do you have about that?

Christine 18:09

Um, and I've had to learn a lot, right? And I think when I've talked, you know, I said a little bit, it's a journey. Like I want when I'm in my career, I want to be the best leader possible, but it's a journey. And I remember when I first started managing people in different capacities, like I'm very efficient and I move quickly, and I have to really recognize not everyone's there. And so I love that part about the feeling of it. And I think there is a difference between telling and coaching. And you've got to find that balance, telling them how to do something or driving really hard to a deadline versus one, how are you coaching them so they think of it, but also how are you motivating in a way where they can meet it at a time that that is needed for a result, right? So it's finding that balance because I think when I really started out managing people, I was it was a lot of telling. It was a lot of like driving to a deadline and just telling them what to do versus coaching and bringing that out of them. Um and I think that was an evolution, probably my first year of leadership and continues to be. And now, you know, it's a lot of, okay, you can tell, but what extent? And then you step back and let them really have that space to drive, drive the results or learn on their own or come up with something. And it's okay if it's not perfect. It's okay if you fail, right? And give them that space to feel okay doing that. And then I think about kids, like you go back to the backpacks, depending on the age, right? Like you're gonna have to do a lot. But if you want to help them pick out their snack for the backpack, fill their water bottle, give them a little bit of a task, they come home, they know where to put their backpacks, they know where to put them and get them ready. You build in almost the time. Like if you know by 8 a.m. you have to leave the house, how do you start that process with the backpacks to empower them sooner, whether it's the night before they pack their snack and then they fill the water the next morning, so that it's not this, we have 30 minutes to go.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Let's get my 30 minutes, what a that'd be a dream. Uh yeah. Yeah. We are two minutes late from departure.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yes. You don't want to run out of your socks.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

And, you know, how relatable to being at some companies that it can feel that way too. That, you know, people are running around just trying to get stuff done. You you've referenced it a few times, and you mentioned that it was one of your earlier, you know, first level of leadership lessons was that telling versus coaching. And I I love coaching in general. And just I'd be curious to hear your what is coaching to you? What does that sound like? Um, just how would you define it?

Christine 20:46

Yeah. You know, I think it's it goes back to kind of what I just said, but giving that space. Um, I think asking a question versus telling them the solution. Um, it's a lot of asking some questions to get them to start to think because they could be some of their first times in an experience like that with an employee or at work, right? Or in management. It could be, they could have faced that experience multiple times, but it's a different way of thinking about it that could potentially be more productive or develop them. So I find it's a lot of asking the questions, but then giving the space for them to think, think on it and connect the dots too, so that they have that ownership in it and that growth. And so space is space for growth, right? So because I think whether they arrive at whatever solution I would have just told them, which could be fine or great, or something better.

SPEAKER_04 21:38

And a lot of times I find it's something even better. Yeah. I can really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

I find when I stop and ask a question and internally I'm like, that was way better than what I thought I was gonna say. Like, that was great. So that's I I can really appreciate that asking versus. Just telling them and how it creates this space where, you know, because now uh I've thought about mentors and leaders that I've had that I knew they always asked me questions before I would go talk to that person. I would prep answers to things and I would start solution finding on my own because I knew that the moment I go there, I'm not getting told what to do. I'm gonna get asked what did I think about this. And I think as a leader, just looking back at it, leaders that I've experienced, and just based on what you're sharing on the principle of leadership that you're teaching them how to solve their own problems and that it's okay to exert this is what you think.

Christine 22:37

Yeah. I think, you know, I just as you were talking, I was thinking

Over-Prepared High Performers And Confidence

Christine 22:41

about this. And I think, you know, females, we sometimes experience this a little bit, but I notice this a lot with high performers, but especially high performing females, is this need to have the answers and be over-prepared. Um, and I'm not gonna say necessarily perfect. And so, but it's interesting to see almost not this okayness to kind of stumble, stumble a little bit or not get it right. It's and I think when you think about that preparedness, there is almost that over-preparedness, and it's almost harder sometimes for them when you ask them questions on the spot, because if they weren't prepared or for so long they come in super prepared to a meeting with you or into anything they do, and they have to finally think just on the spot. I think that's something I notice a lot with females in particular. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Oh, I'm sorry, I cut you off what's that?

Christine 23:34

Yeah. And I'm not saying I don't want to limit it just to them, but that's what I've noticed with high-performing females.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

What I'd love to just pull on that thread for a minute. Why do you think that is and and how do you notice that?

Christine 23:47

Yeah. I haven't, you know, I can think back to, you know, I can't say why, I can't point to why. We can think about societal things. We talk about, you know, we hear a lot about things like that, like how we talk to women versus men growing up and what they believe about themselves. I think there is this piece, you know, I think about for myself. I was always super organized on top of it, a top student. You know, I believe I wanted those things, but did I want those things because I found also I got sort of the accolades from it and a lot of admiration for being a really great athlete and student and everything else, right? Did that feed it? Did I actually want that? Or was it because I liked what was happening around me? I think those are questions you have to ask. But I think as I've evolved, and I think too, as we think about our education system, you know, thinking for yourself is we're told a ton, right? I think of, you know, college and grades, like I knew how to get straight A's. I knew what I needed to write in my papers, math test. I mean, we learned it all. I could memorize it, I could regurgitate exactly what the teacher wanted and get an A. Now you go into the real world and, you know, maybe your baseline jobs, you kind of know exactly what you need to do to do well in your first line of employment, but then you start moving up. And it goes back to exactly what you said. You're starting to get asked, well, how do we solve this? Or what is the solution? You're just bringing me a problem. And I think that's where you find that piece of, oh, wow, I always had all the answers my whole life. I've been prepared. I've always known what to say, and now I'm at this crossroads where I want to move up, but I have to think on my own, right? Or what is it? Or I haven't had that experience yet. And I think that can be really daunting for some people. And and, you know, I I mentioned women.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

And I can definitely see that, especially somebody that feels a newer and a leadership role. It is I'm I need to figure everything out. I have to have all the answers. How could I lead these people if I don't know when what I'm picking up from you is sometimes not knowing is okay, and just asking a really good question is the best thing.

Christine 25:58

Not knowing is okay, but you do see a different level of it's a balance, right? Because you might see overconfidence with someone, right? Like, well, I'm just gonna have this confidence that I can can do it, which you want to a degree, but you also want them to have the vulnerability enough to be like, I don't know. Can you help me? Or what is this, or I don't understand this situation, or I haven't experienced this with an employee before. You don't, because if it and that's where as a leader, you can start asking the right questions to kind of break that down. Like, do they actually know what the next step is? Because it could be pretty detrimental depending on what that decision is, because they want to almost come across as, oh, I got this. It could be really detrimental to the team. So that also comes back to that question of you're not really putting them on the spot or saying no, but you're helping them pause too and think about the consequences of an action or how they're moving forward with something.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

You mentioned it earlier, but having that ownership piece, like now they they're gonna own it.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

That they're gonna be more invested in that action, whatever it is. Um they're also more likely to take the step because it's theirs, it's their piece, it was their idea. So that makes a ton of sense. I read this thing. Somebody gave another mentor of mine gave it to me what before one of my first management roles, and it just it was this old Stanford study. Um, it was like a Xerox from a magazine that

When Great Sellers Become Bad Managers

SPEAKER_03 27:32

old school piece of paper that um he sent over to me, but it just said that it said, why your best salesperson is going to make your worst manager. And it just uncovered, I see smile. So what is that, what stands out to you with that as far as far as like best salesperson is gonna make, and potentially could be. It doesn't mean they can't be a good manager, but it just potential to be the worst manager or leader.

Christine 27:59

Yeah. Well, sales in particular, it's so when you're a rap, it's so individually focused and on your income and your output, right? You kind of do whatever whatever you need to do to really achieve that that top sort of income. And it is very individual focused. Um, and so as you think about how does that then transcend to a leader when you have to think about bringing not just your your little business together to be successful and make a ton of money, but your whole your whole business, right? And I think that's where it comes back to how can you bring out those traits in other people? Like, are you able to? Um, and then how can you think broadly speaking? Because it can be very narrow-focused when you're a top sales performer. And you want a more global enterprise thinking person when you bring them into leadership.

SPEAKER_03 28:44

That's I I love that essentially exactly what it shared there. Um, but more internally focused, which made me think about the opposite of what you had shared earlier, is like I want to better you, I want you to be the best, versus in that that role is individual performance.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

So it's counterproductive to it.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

So yeah, that's fascinating. So as you step out as you think about this with leadership in general, where do you think because one thing that I find fascinating is leadership at home and leadership at work. Do you think those things are different? Do you think those are separate uh or similar?

Christine 29:26

I think there could be similarities, right? Like even when we're talking about the backpacks, it's like I I know at 8 a.m. we have to get out the door to better set all of us up for success. How do we start that process sooner versus me just doing it for them, knowing that it's gonna be more helpful if they can start doing that? It's similar at work. Like if we know we have a goal for the quarter, how do we start preparing even the quarter before, right? For that, not only to hit that quarter, but the quarter after. And so I think, you know, with them too and their teams, like how do I get them to start thinking about their teams and the structure of their teams or where there could potentially be things we got to keep an eye on when it comes to maybe hitting those goals or developing those teams and get ahead of it, right? Or if we know we're growing rapidly, we're like, we need some headcount or double down on an account for some growth, right? I think those are things that are similar, that cross over from a theme standpoint um with leadership at work and at home.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

It's something that I juggle with often. Then I think about when I go to work and then I come home and just just uh how sometimes I I just question and wonder how I'm showing up in both places. Like, is it the same? Because it almost feels like um I almost say Jekyll and Hyde. Like I don't feel like Jekyll and Hyde, but it just feels like it should be a similar approach. Like one of them should mimic the other, because kind of the how you do anything is how you do everything type of thing. Is um yeah. So with that, as far as leadership goes in general, what are you currently working on? Like what excites you the most about leadership?

Christine 31:02

Yeah. Well, and also just to be clear, like I don't think I'm the same person. Okay. Maybe what I do. I do think there's themes that I try to do, but I mean I'm dealing with little kids here, um, which I guess sometimes you can joke like, well, your place can also be like different types of kids too. But I, you know, it's it's different, right? The approaches. And I also think you have this more relaxed nature when you get home. You almost feel like, oh, I can breathe or safe because you are running and firing on all different cylinder cylinders all day. So it's a different type of execution and leadership, right? Um, but I do think there's a more comfortability at home.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

And that's the because I guess if you're more naturally, and where I where I juggle with it is just more naturally inclined to ask questions in one area, then I'm gonna do it more in the other area as well. Like I really enjoy asking my kids questions.

SPEAKER_04 31:49

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

But I find sometimes I just, you know, if I'm just burnt out or exhausted or we're in the middle of it, I'm you know, we it's just an interesting space that I I like to just consider.

Christine 32:05

It's patience, though. So much is patience, and that can go back and forth right between work and home. It's the patience with your kids, patience at work, right? And yourself. And what races, like the patience in the present mind we have to have when it's just chaos or we don't know and we're super tired.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

A lot of it loops back for me to that steady state that you had mentioned that you had picked up is having that that steady state of being able to show up in that way. So, what what excites you with leadership just in general? And then what are you working on currently?

Christine 32:41

Yeah, well, leadership in general. Like

Authenticity, Patience, And Steady State

Christine 32:43

I get, I specifically in my situation, I'm very excited about the leaders who are under me right now. Um they're just they surprise me in great ways almost every week, every day. Um, just what they're doing with their teams and how they're growing and developing. They inspire me to be a better leader. So specifically at work, I think that that is what excites me in my current space. I think in leadership in general, when we think about it more broadly, I think we're getting to a spot where we're starting to suss out a little bit of who to listen to. I mean, we've talked about this a little bit before, but you think of all of these leadership influencers that we've had. And, you know, I look at my bookshelf and all the books that I've had, the audio books that I've listened to on a lot of leaders we've we've a lot of us have gone to throughout the years for whether it's advice, they've come into our works to speak, we seek them out. And I think we're starting to really start to understand who are the ones we want to listen to, what are the voices, what are our leadership styles that we might gravitate toward? It might not be one of them. In some ways, it might be someone closer to us, or it might be a whole different experience altogether. And so what I get excited about as I think about the leadership space, I think we're gonna start to see more authenticity in it. I think we're gonna start to see um really more credibility come along with some leaders. So, and who is gonna have kind of those bigger voices. Um, so when I say credibility, it's just people with a lot of robust experience. So I think we're gonna start to see some of these people who have worked at different companies, have had different backgrounds, come into this leadership space and speak from perspectives that that we haven't heard before, right? Um, I think a lot of people have been given platforms because they've had whether it's good TED Talks or a book hit, right? But what that, and it's not that that's not bad. A lot of that's great messaging. But now as so I think the leadership space in general is those types of influencers who are hopefully coming up and breaking into that space and who I'm even following now really excites me. And just when I say authenticity, it's like the vulnerability piece of it, the vulnerability of being a mom or a parent, um, in the midst of maybe running a company or a large team and not having it perfect, but also working out and being super fit and somehow doing it all and and taking away some of those principles, which I find to be really inspiring. So that's in general. And then what I'm working on as a leader right now is, you know, I think it's continuing to take some of the lessons, yes, from from Moab and all these races, that steady, that steadiness, because I am, like I said, our our company is growing at a rapid pace with a lot of change. And I think we're noticing everyone's kind of ebbs and flows with the steadiness. So how can can you be that that kind of constant in the midst of because the ebbs and flows of the excitement of growth.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

What do you mean with that ebbs and flows if you if you can't expand on that?

Christine 35:37

People around, I mean, you know, you there's great people and leaders all around. And I think, you know, I when I say ebbs and flows, you know, sometimes they're not always steady, right? Because they might be dealing with something really big right now. And I think when you think about the amount of change that comes, no matter what, what type of experiences you have, even if it's robust, there are things that are just gonna kick you off your rocker because you haven't, you haven't experienced it before. And there's just those are the things that you have to give what I realize in especially how we're changing is give a lot of grace, a lot of benefit of the doubt, and go back to what you can control, which is yourself. And for me, then that means to be a constant for my team. Um, I'm not gonna say it's always perfect. I don't want to be robotic, right? Like I want them to see emotion, right? If I don't agree with something, but also then how am I handling it to not complain but progress forward. So that's what I mean by that ebbs and flows. It's you know, even our top, everyone's gonna kind of go go off a little bit from that constant state. But then what I can control is is myself and how I can be that leader and show up for my team and for the company.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

It just, and I know we didn't record with this, but before we started recording, just to backfill everybody into it, because we were we were discussing just different, you had mentioned rugged trails is kind of where you are, northeast. And we were discussing the difference between that and maybe a Colorado, like a smooth California, like California trails are just these flowing trails. But you can you'll cut three or four minutes off your your mile pace because you have to jog and juggle all these routes and you're constantly mentally aware of it. And just that's what it brought me back to when you shared that that ebbs and flows of that. Is like, what is it like to be on that team? Are you giving that smooth California trail to run down where they can really get top speed, or are they having to juggle past some what feels like roots and just kind of meant more mentally hyper-focused on just that's where my mind went with it?

Christine 37:36

That's a great tie-in. And it's you wanna, you know, and I think as a parent too, you almost want to provide the smooth road, right? But there are there's importance for them to experience the roots and rocks like that terrain. Like there's and you as a leader have to kind of dictate when that, and that goes back to the coaching piece. When do you let that, you know, space happen for them to kind of experience some of that and let them know it's okay, you're gonna stumble, you might sprain an ankle. Um, and that's okay. But I think removing barriers is a big piece of leadership too. And I think showing them as well, like I'm going over roots and rocks as well with you. So it's not necessarily creating the smooth road. It's just yes, giving them the space to trip, but also letting them know I'm I'm right here with you. We're gonna go on the same path together and we're gonna figure it out together.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

What do you mind just digging a little into that removing barriers? What are those

Removing Barriers By Listening Hard

SPEAKER_03 38:25

barriers that you're removing?

Christine 38:26

Yeah, you know, I think for your team, when you think about anything that's really holding them back or holding their team back, we talk about, you know, and I think that's such a buzz thing to say sometimes to leadership. So I love that you're asking this. Like, what are we want to remove barriers for our team? Okay, great. Like, yeah, what does that mean? Like, how do you define that? But you think about a lot of it is is it comes down to not only asking them some really good questions, but really listening, listening to your team and to your people. Like if something keeps coming up, or if you find they keep getting stuck on something, or if they find like there's just maybe someone who is just really toxic, maybe on their team, right? A teammate, or there's just some administrative stuff that just keeps tripping them up to be the best leader they can be, or not for me, sales, like they can't get in the field because of it. Those are the things that um when I talk about barriers, how do we now approach that, right? If these administrative things have to get done, how do we look at your schedule, right? So you can free up that time to be with your people. If there's this person on your team, let's talk about a process or a plan of things we can do to help mitigate that, right? So when I think about that, it's that really active listening to understand what are some of the things that are holding them up to be the most effective they can be for their team. And that it's not the same for every person. Um, and you can't remove everything, right? Because you're also trying to create a culture that is a winning culture, but very solution-oriented as well. So it's not everything's a problem, or I don't want to do anything. It's well, these are what we have to do. So how do I manage my schedule as such? And these are some of the problems, like these are the top problems. There's gonna be tons, but like these are the top ones.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

So here's the solutions to fix them now.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Makes me think of kind of companies who, and it sounds like your company is doing extremely well with growth in general, but a lot of company growth is the bottlenecks that kind of you know is just removing a bottleneck, so then finding the next one. It almost sounds like that barrier is the how do you help these other performers that you're leading? How do you help them remove their bottlenecks that they have um just in their day-to-day stuff that's slowing them down from doing it, whether it's a plan, a process, um difficult, you know, team number.

Christine 40:40

And we have a lot too, right? Like as you move up and or as companies expand too, you talk about red tape or, you know, all the different processes. And you also have to, you know, I think as growth as a leader and things that I I talk about, I'm I'm very efficient. I tend to move fast. I tend to kind of see um kind of the path sometimes before other people. Um, and so a lot of it's like, how do you bring people along and how do you get there? And and also understanding the process and like what it takes to kind of achieve that, like what's your company process. But I think for me, another thing is not everything is not everything is a big problem, right? So really being mindful of what am I bringing to the table and then what's that solution? Because I'm not gonna bring the 17 things I'm seeing that, yeah, I probably would fix them if I, if I could, right? But I there's probably one or two that are gonna be really important, not just for my team, but for the company. And those are the things that I'm gonna focus on. And so when I have to go through the different channels and cross-functional partners to achieve it, like those are the things that I'm gonna be consistent with versus the 17.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Is that how you because what struck me is I think that's a very common leadership thing, is probably getting into a leadership role because you're quick-moving, high performer, that you can leave people behind. And I know you said just focusing on one or two, but I think even in one or two, you can leave people behind. But what do you do to focus and to make sure you're not leaving people in the dust with your excitement of moving forward? What do you what do you do there?

Christine 42:10

I think one of the biggest learnings, and I think this can go back to if we go back to the high school.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

I was pizza referencing all day.

Christine 42:18

I'm probably gonna have pizza for dinner now just the um is the you realize also the theme is the importance of team and bringing people with you. And you really can't do much on your own. And I think that unless you're like a top sales performer and then you can just go gun and and kind of be really narrow-focused. But I think the um you really can't accomplish a lot without without buy-in and and and the team. And I think it's important to realize who are those people, what are those processes? You know, you think about racing and you think about your pacers, you think about your crew. I mean, they play such a fundamental, significant role in your success. And I think that is, I think the greatest leaders understand that a really strong team is gonna just help help propel, propel them in in a lot of different ways.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

So I really enjoy the tie back to ultra running for and back to high school, but taking that lesson back that it's a team approach. Um but also just reminding yourself that if I rush over there by myself, I might get there quicker. But if we all go together, we're gonna get there, we're gonna get further, we're gonna move to a different space. So I yeah, I really like how you put that.

Christine 43:41

I mean, you won't be creating a lot of friends if you go there on your own. Because there's only going to be, and that's where you have to think about the long game, right? I mean, if you're if you are just trying to accomplish something really quick, and you're not gonna see people or things again, maybe just rushing there. But I think long term, when you think about where you want to be and how you want to influence, there's you have to to think about the people that are important to bring along um in that process or or getting to that decision. And also back to this credit piece. I think there's a lot of times

Team Buy-In And The Credit Trap

Christine 44:15

there's a balance between credit. I think one of the things I've been finding too as a leader, I love to kind of lead through others and let them let them kind of run their business and fly. And then like I say, I'll choose my moments to to ask questions or if I'm seeing something that needs to be course corrected right. But I think empowering others to really be their authentic leadership selves is something that I really pride myself in and want to continue to work on. But I think that one of the pieces that it comes back to sometimes is is credit. And I think when you you know it's you as a leader, one of the things you have to understand is you may have the best ideas or strategy or solutions. You may be working with a team doing that and that was like all you right but that credit goes to the team or someone steps in and takes the credit right even if you're working with a peer and they step in and take the credit that happens all the time. And I think that happens throughout your career and even at the highest levels. So I think it's really important to understand a balance between what are your moments that you need to own. Like you can't be okay. Like if someone takes your idea or if you're like strategy or presents something of your solution like that goes back to that longer game. Well what's the ultimate goal? We want to get that approved so then we can open up this store to run this fast, right? So all like who cares who gets the credit, we just want it approved. But in those meetings, what are your moments, right? Like what is that not sound bite, but where are those pieces where you're going to kind of show your your role in it or help direct to get to that decision faster. And I think that's going to be a continual learning process, not only for me, but also like what I'm going to teach my team because there's very much even with you know credit for things that that I think everyone's going to continue to face until you kind of learn to deal with it of what's the goal and what are my moments.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

And it's such an interesting it's bringing up credit it made me think about other areas with it. But it almost seems like it would be counterproductive at that point because that becomes like that individual producer. If you stop put the brakes on the momentum to say well that was that was me, not you that it it's counter to getting to where we're going.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 46:43

Which I think is I love that you brought that up. Because I think it's such a big thing is like leaders giving credit versus taking all the credit. Yeah. Assigning blame or are you taking the blame? Um which is a fascinating thing.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

So with this to you because it's something I wanted to ask you earlier. And it it kind of I think it shows up here because I think this is the those are the moments when you feel like we can move quicker and faster as a leader because you you you have the vision, you see it, you got it planned out. When do you decide to to tell somebody what to do versus coach them yeah. Do you have spaces and how do you juggle those two things?

Christine 47:26

Yeah I think there's there is sometimes an urgency where where telling is is what's needed but my expectation then is next time I don't have to tell them it could be very much their first time dealing with the situation or they're not aware of all the other things because one, maybe I can't share them with them and I have to tell them a direction we need to be me moving in and I just need them to execute. And so there's a balance there but an expectation let's say if we're dealing with a team issue or a strategic issue for their region. My expectation would be next time we run into that you're you're coming to the table with it not me finding and telling what to do that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_03 48:09

Also it made me think of too that if you are coaching more than telling probably when you tell it's kind of like okay this is you know like it just carries a little bit more weight because they're not used to it. Yeah it's like okay I better yes gonna go and do this thing right now.

Christine 48:25

So that it makes a lot of sense and it goes back to like even thinking when we were talking a little bit about I say females and high performing and wanting to have all the answers and then kind of how do you break that but that piece too about the telling it's almost that affirmation or approval constantly looking for and almost wanting that telling like is this right? Am I thinking about this right even when you're asking the question so how do you get again it's not I want to it's not you know you can see it with everyone right but how do you get those those leaders and those people to a place of of um almost confidence in their decisions too because I think their whole life they've been dealing with kind of the affirmation or someone telling um versus them really just thinking and owning for themselves knowing it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 49:17

What is the best way to teach that?

Christine 49:20

That's time. And

Direct Feedback That Actually Lands

Christine 49:22

I think you've got to be really direct and you've got to give very specific examples and that goes back to any feedback. I think we've all experienced that very vague feedback and you don't like am I doing well am I not like right like I don't I don't know what just happened there. I think we've given it too I think there was a time once I had to performance manage someone like my first one ever and years ago. And I walked away from that conversation I was like I don't know if that person knows they're on a plan right now. I was like I don't think I don't think they even know they were on a plan. I don't think I handled that well. And so I think those are the things that you learn over time. But I think that goes back to that directness direct is kind and we've heard that I think Renee Brown like who we were talking about earlier like um before we started says that right being being direct is kind and I I truly believe that but giving that specific example and then I think you have to hold firm. I think a lot of times too when it comes to to giving them the specific examples there's time for that improvement and you have to understand what that is. But I also think sometimes with feedback right there's defensiveness. And so how do you kind of hold firm, acknowledge and give space for their feelings but also make sure we're pivoting now to to execution and to solving versus the defensiveness piece.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

And I think that it answers it in a great way though because I think that that direct and being clear is very kind you know looping back to Brene Brown that when you're giving that feedback but also with people that need to just say this is what we're doing that giving direct being intentional because I think we've all been in that situation at least once in our careers where I was like wait am I felt like I was getting told to change something but also you complimented me at the end of that like what like do I just keep keep doing what I'm doing? So being very clear um it makes a ton of sense being direct. Yeah you mentioned this earlier and it was another thing I wanted to loop back to because you had said with your team currently that you're that you've got several people that you lead that excites you that you're just excited about them as leaders. And it just got me thinking like if I could throw on you know your glasses per se and just see what you see and like what is it that you see in leaders that just like wow that's a great leader just when you're observing I think it is this this it goes back to the servant leadership piece.

Christine 52:18

And that can be unpacked in a lot of different ways but how they think about their teams, how they're developing their teams, how they lead with clarity, right? Um I think a lot of that is what inspires me what their team says about them. Like I get all the feedback right so I get to see it, I get to read it, um hear it when I'm out in the field. And I think that is something that how they think differently right like they may think differently than me and be have really creative solutions to things. And so I think there goes back to what excites me is also just how they're creatively leading their regions, their strategy, their teams in particular and how they're they're igniting a a different type of motivation and discipline right in in ways to kind of drive results but also keep in mind for us our mission is really important to us and keep that top of mind.

SPEAKER_03 53:19

Love that just circling back to what you just said servant leadership and then also just talking to people this is one thing I've I've heard it said and I I really enjoyed is it just you're you're not the leader that you think you are you're the leader that other people say that you are like the like that's whatever they're thinking that that whatever they're saying like that's that's what you are. That's you as a leader.

SPEAKER_04 53:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

What advice would you give to anybody just as we um start to wrap up and put a bow on this just amazing conversation what advice would you give anybody that's that might be struggling in leadership or stepping into a leadership role?

Christine 53:56

Yeah I think there's things to think about when you're stepping into a leadership role. I think there's probably and consider if you want that, right? Like I don't think I think do you want that because you feel like you have to have that or is that something you're aspiring to and then why? Like really ask yourself why like what are those three things of why you want to be a leader and if it if team and developing people is not one of those, you should not be a leader. Um it goes and I say that with parents too if you want to be a parent or not it's like if you don't want to do this then you probably shouldn't be a parent.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Pretty derived tougher to get out of that job than it is to just now for a couple decades. No you want to be there.

Christine 54:44

Yeah but I think you know advice to leaders you know I think the one thing or a couple things would be really understanding asking yourselves like am I am I being simple and consistent? We talked of the theme of this has been that steady state. I think even if you just take away that from this conversation, am I being that steady state and then how do I practice that not just at work but in my home life if you have that and you can come from a place of calm with decision making it transcends into a lot of different things right when you're in the boardroom or when you're leading your team you're not you're not rushing to make decisions. Like a lot of times things don't need to be rushed. You're not seeking the credit right you're coming from a place of seeing the overall team seeing the overall strategy and having more of a reflection moment before making a decision, building a team and I think that that steady state that emotional regulation is is very big.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

The consistency with it being consistent is is a is a huge piece and wouldn't you say consistent being consistent with just that steady state in general?

Christine 55:56

Consistent I mean you've got it again you don't want to be they should see some of your emotions right you don't want to be this um we say steady state this robotic like it's fine it's good it's great positive and you know and this calm all the time right like they should see some emotion there and vulnerability like that gives credibility too it's a balance right um because that can be a slippery slope but I think consistency too in in how you show up in your decisions, right? How are you treating everyone with fairness? How are you handling different situations? You know, are you consistent with your your strategies and your approach to things, right? Consistency in work that can be incredibly unstable sometimes in life that we have no idea what's happening at any given moment. I think being consistent in your values and being consistent in how you handle people and situations, you know, again you're not perfect, but that's incredibly important and that gives a lot of and that builds trust. That consistency builds trust and that is so important as a leader because you know you can lose trust very quickly especially in leadership.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

I really appreciate that as something that just being consistent that I I read that just how much trust that can break down if you kind of if your team never knows what which version of my boss am I about to get today?

SPEAKER_04 57:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 57:18

What version of this person? Because it's each day is a very different thing versus being consistent and and everything with that steady state is is fantastic. You would mention this just getting credibility with it. And it was something else that I was curious

Credible Voices And Real Stories

SPEAKER_03 57:31

about with who you look to for leadership lessons. Like who do you look up to who do you study? Um but also maybe want to ask too is because clearly credibility is important to you so where do you where does that come from when you look at who you're who you're you know maybe reading books, um digesting information from like what does that credibility look like to you and and what we'll start there.

Christine 58:00

Yeah. You know it goes back to when we're talking about what I'm excited about just in the the bigger space of leadership this authenticity piece and that credibility piece it's it's not necessarily the big CEOs even right now that I would be looking to I think they have pieces of advice it's not even the big TED talk people that have wrote written some good books and are all have great content on Instagram and good one liners like those are good. But I I love the stories behind people. And that's what I get really drawn to and that's who I start to follow. So whether it's a runner um you know we have I'll talk about Andy Glaze who just finished the the 300 in Arizona and you think about his background and his story and how funny and relatable he is but how he just draws people into him that's a type of leadership and inspiration that you can take lessons from too and where you want to follow. And it's not like he's leading a Fortune 500 company, right? I think there's this authenticity and leadership that's that's really coming out um in different ways. I think there's now you know different mom influencers that I follow that I'm very inspired by from a parenting standpoint because they're juggling so much, but also having really creative, great ideas of how you can bring this into your family life, but also into work. So those are the credibility in the people that I'm being drawn to but I'm also seeing at a more global level like a theme of people being drawn more to these authentic stories. Because people now are also really good at I want to say investigating but really uncovering and sussing out like what's real and what's not they're gonna know your story. I mean everything's really open in public right now. So I think that are searchable.

SPEAKER_03 59:49

So that's what's driving kind of that that that direction for leadership I really appreciate that I started looking backwards because I I just opened I don't know where I put it but I just got his Andy's uh new book that just came out I listened to it on audible already but I did when I got home from this work trip last night I just opened it up and I was like Andy what's that I'd love that you looped him in because you know very real just vulnerable obviously has had struggles doesn't pretend to be anything that he's not right and is very very vulnerable and real which I think you mentioned social media and just influencers but I think it has changed the game of what we actually see because you really get a glimpse into people's lives and like who they actually are right right and I think that that's where it goes back to this vulnerability piece and not being so perfect or robotic.

Christine 1:00:44

I mean there can be so many filtered things and there's so much great beautiful content out there but I think it's this raw content like even I think about what you post sometimes when you're running like it's not it's not really the perfect lighting but it's like here's a great lesson and I'm I'm running eight miles I'm like studying and maybe it's dark out whatever right and I think that that's the stuff that that's what we want now. Like I don't want the filtered I don't want the perfect curated Instagram page and colors and you know I think there's AI you know you talk about there's so much there and so I think sometimes people think when authenticity I mean you can lose your yourself in AI making decisions for you or how you look right there's so much you can do with it. But I think that's going to quickly be filtered out I think there's almost a yearning because of how filtered and filters not just looks right like when I say filtered I mean filters gone through goes through everything, right? Your content, who you are as a person, how you think through ideas I think that's where people are almost getting an adverse reaction to this filtered world we're living in and that's why they're gravitating to the more raw and authentic piece of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:59

That's a negative way to navigate into just the it's my experience with it is it started from I send out some weekly videos to people that I work with like leadership teams and it's like wow these would make good pieces of content why can't I do this? And I was struggling with how to record it and I kept wanting it to be this perfect looking video clip. And finally I was like I'm not doing anything I'm not getting these done and that's when I was like I'm running every day. Like I'm out running every morning why don't I just do it here and then that's like not to make it about me but just about that this is the window that I have like because I wanted to pick your brain about that mom influencer where it's like no this is this isn't even planned. This is just the time that I have because for the next 12 hours I'm in front of a room and let's this is just the window that I've got so this is what you get. And it's messy and there's kids stuff yeah yep yeah it is I mom influencers in a messy kitchen who right so right was like that's that's relatable you know like that's a real thing. I was at a a actually a friend of ours that we both know um I was out she's got a newborn um then just had dinner with her and her husband and her baby and everything was picture perfect and they showed me the house when we went to the basement and they were like oh don't mind the mess I was like you're a real person. Like you know it just it's you know like that's this is it's just real like this is just real life stuff and it's that it's it's very refreshing. That's like I appreciate that that credibility piece that you mentioned with looping back to that. So I would love to ask too just with that what what are some of your favorites what are your like favorite books people you look to I know you mentioned Andy Glaze a few mom influencers who do you look look to for inspiration and and what draws you to them?

Christine 1:03:54

Yeah so definitely there's a variety of people but I'm gonna point to one book

Books That Shape A Leadership Philosophy

Christine 1:03:59

in particular that I've always liked and it's been around for a really long time. It's called Team of Rivals. It's on Abraham Lincoln and the people he put um in his cabinet and they were all different thinkers. They didn't necessarily agree with them some had different political views right and I think it's we think about different people hire sometimes a lot of people like them or like minded or surround themselves with that and and he didn't and it was a very long time ago but those are you know when I think about you know when I hire people to or I want to work for them one day and we talked about a little bit of things that I see in them when it goes back to this this this team focus and them taking that back seat and something I believe I I do or want to continue to do. But I also think I want people to challenge me. I do not want people to think like how I think I want them to complement maybe my blind spots right um and so we can we can just get to to better strategies solutions growth and so Team of Rivals it's a long book it's by Dor Doris Kearns Goodwin but it's it's really good.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

So that's when I go back to I go back to a lot um in in leadership and when I think about building teams I just wrote it down I've not I actually have not heard of that and it it sounds pretty fascinating.

Christine 1:05:13

Yeah it's a good book. And then my final one final book is and I actually usually gift this to to people who work work for me um it's called the Four Agreements. So you might have heard of this book it's smaller. So you'll have Tomb Arrivals which is very thick big book. It's a wild read four agreements and those are you know those are principles and I read it once every year at the beginning of every year and it's part of my leadership philosophy. So every year I'll kick off the year with a big team meeting so every all the reps, all the directors, everyone's there. But I'll share my leadership philosophy and then my expectations and then we'll kind of go in into the year and some recognition. But I'll share it once also with the team. And the four agreements is something that I come back to but it's always too Your best. Um see if I remember them all. Always do your best, give the benefit of give the benefit of the doubt, be impeccable with your word. And and those are, you know, just just pillars to really think about and live by. Because I also think leadership is who you are in your values, right? People are, you go back to authenticity, credibility, it's who you are, it's how you're living. That's why people are drawn to you. That's why people are going to listen. Or if you ask them questions and try to coach them, or that's what's going to get them there is how you're consistently living out your values in your life. And again, it's not that you can't change and evolve and but be real with it and be open, like that you're learning through things. I think some of the times is me being vulnerable and open with my team of things I'm working on helps a lot with that respect and conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:51

The I was looking behind me because I have it um in here. I have not I don't read it um yearly, which makes me think I should re-listen to it. I know I've listened to it a couple of times. I know you went through the actual poor agreements. What stands out to you the most with that book? Like what is one of the themes or principles that you just come back to all the time? Because if you read it annually, it's there's a purpose.

Christine 1:07:18

Yeah, it's this impeccable with your word is I think there's benefit that giving people benefit of doubt, yes, but is always a big one. Because I think we can kind of question a lot of times people and motives, especially when we've been through a lot of life experience. But I think the impeccable with your word because the power of the word, you can't take a lot of that back. And you think about all of what how you what you say to people, how much you say sometimes. You know, I think like it's it's so incredibly important. I think about you think about storytelling, what is the story, but how are you saying it? Um, because that's gonna land the point that you want to make when I talk to the team. We can be very verbose with things. Can you talk 25% less?

unknown 1:08:06

Right?

Christine 1:08:06

Because you're gonna lose them otherwise. I have to practice that because I can talk, talk. So I have to practice that, right? Um, and I don't always land the point. And so those are things I practice, but you think about what you say to your kids, what you say to your friends, what you're saying that the word is so powerful, and so that is the one I come back to a lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:29

Great ones, and I appreciate how you really built around that with it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:34

Um as we wrap up, thank you so much for for taking some time and chatting. I always really enjoy our conversations. I feel like I learned so much from you and just how you show up in all areas of life. Um, is there and I'll say what is there that we haven't talked about leadership-wise that that you just want to share or talk about?

Christine 1:08:58

I love that question. I think you know, leadership is such a fascinating topic. And it's, you know, we we talk about how you hear it all the time, right? And and what does that mean, right? And it can mean something different to different people. But I think ultimately it comes back to if we bring it back. I truly believe, and I said this if people are considering leadership, if you do not have coaching and developing people on there, that you on that list, like that is leadership is probably not for you. Leader is truly bringing out the greatness in other people. It's building and developing really good teams and coaching people to the best of their ability. So, yeah, maybe you do work for them one day. They become greater than you. Like these are the things that that that is leadership. And I don't think it's black and white when it comes to that. So just something I would really want to leave with is that packaged point in particular.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:49

We've talked a lot about good leadership qualities and just good leaders,

Bad Leaders: Charismatic Or Fear-Based

SPEAKER_03 1:09:54

how to be a good leader. I'm curious to ask you the flip side of that. What stands out to you with just recognizing poor leadership in the workplace, whether it's you know, somebody that, you know, in your case that you uh have you lead leaders or if you're working for a poor leader? Like what stands out to you when you think about poor leadership?

Christine 1:10:14

Yeah, I think we can all sit and think about a poor leader, right? Whether it was, you know, back in the day, whether it was a teacher or a coach, whether it's someone or somewhere we're working for now. And I think so much of leadership is kind of learning from those people, but you have to make that choice to learn. But really, what stands out is, you know, there's a couple variations of poor leaders, right? I think one, one of the worst ones actually is the lack of self-awareness. And what I mean by that is they think they're a good leader. So they say the right things, they're incredibly charismatic, but behind the scenes, they're not doing any of it, right? But again, they think that, but there's no, there's no self-awareness, right? To to understanding that they're not, they're not really hitting the mark or doing what they they they believe they're saying. So, like, you know, whether it's the language of we're removing barriers and we're coaching and developing our people, and it's um, you know, I want to make sure that they all shine and uh they say the right things, right? But at the end of the day, they're they're really not not doing it. And I think the job of maybe their boss or anyone really is to to be aware of that. I always think I think looking at results and actions and and the team under them, like, is this actually happening? Um, because I think that's probably one of one of the worst ones, just because there is a lack of self-awareness, but they get away and they can stay in an organization for a really long time because of them being incredibly charismatic and again saying the right things. Then there's the other, all right, there's another poor leader that that's also scary, but I think some of us have experienced it, and that's really fear-based, right? They actually could be really strategic and smart, but they're incredibly can be incredibly manipulative. Um, they have worked their way throughout the organization and have the right people potentially on their side, but you know, a lot of people around them or surrounding people kind of live in fear. So they feel like they can't speak up or speak out. Or so when that feedback does come, where you can kind of give feedback end of year, mid-year, whatever it is, right? On those leaders, you you don't speak up. Um, I think there's a lot of that. And so they also have a way of being charismatic in their way, right? Um, so they can kind of hide behind some of some of that. But I think it's really important for organizations as they think about their leadership teams and especially at the highest levels, like not just the length of someone's been around, but are these people truly following them? Are we getting the results out of it? Do people feel like they can be open and honest? You know, we do one of the things we talk about in sales a lot is my team goes out in the field. We call them, they they're shadowing their reps. So they're spending multiple days and they mix it up throughout the quarter with with whatever reps they can see them in action and give coaching and feedback. You think about that even with leadership. I think sometimes we get to certain levels and then it just kind of turns their head, well, oh, they're at this level of leadership, so we can kind of just, you know, let them go. But I think there's maybe there's shadowing that needs to be done with some of our leaders and companies and organizations so we can start to see, you know, because that impacts your future. That impacts who stays, who goes. And we know the number one indicator of people leaving a company is a manager. Or sometimes maybe people want to leave, but they can't because of the economy or family situations or for a variety of reasons, and they have to navigate working for someone like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:37

And it makes me think of just a very resentful, you know, employee that just feels trapped. They're not they're not doing well, let alone just how nobody wants to have an unsafe feeling employee, like somebody feeling unsafe. But on the performance level, they're not going to be performing well. Um it also it it made me think of it when you when you just shared it, and I don't know that I've thought about it the way till you till you just shared it, but when you said that they kind of say the right thing, you know, like I'm um I'm I'm here to make them shine. That even the way that was said, and I think it was with intent, it was look at how good I am at making them shine. You know, it's like it even in that, like trying to point that finger versus like good leadership that that I've heard. I'm just I've heard leaders just I don't even know why I'm here. Like this team has thrived, like they are doing it, you know, and that's a totally different space. And anytime I hear a leader say that, I'm like, yeah, okay. Like I get that, but it's definitely good leadership. But um just how you said it was it was just interesting. That's like, oh, they're subtly taking credit for it.

Christine 1:14:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:51

Um yeah. What do you what do you recommend people do with that? Because I think there's different levels of um and I love that ride-along piece to locate it, by the way, of are we having a ride along with our leaders, just like you're having leaders ride along with sales reps. Um, yeah, whether they're and I think this is a multifaceted question, because you could have somebody that's you know, that's their boss, somebody that that's their peer, so we're across, or somebody that's the owner of a company uh that's having to chuggle this. Like, what do you recommend people do in that situation when they start to notice it?

Christine 1:15:26

Yeah. I think if you're you're heading a company and you see that, I think maybe

What You Can Control At Work

Christine 1:15:30

putting in some of those practices of how are we looking and doing pulse checks on our leaders right now? I think you can't always sometimes feedback people are nervous to be honest, right? In those feedback surveys that companies tend to do. I think sometimes people are nervous about going directly to someone to share. I think what are other leading indicators can you start to look for when you want to look at at your leadership team and if and making sure that they're really being who who you need them to be. Um, I think, and what are the processes you need to put in place to do that, whether that is a shadow or or something else, right? But I think that's gonna be really important for companies to start to look at if they haven't already, or if they're leading companies or big, big leadership teams. Um, and then I think if you're in it, like if you're in the situation, you know, I don't think there's any flawless organization with perfect leaders, right? And, you know, I'm certainly not perfect at all. And so much to grow and develop as a person, as a leader, right? Um, so very far away from even where I want to be. But, you know, I think the biggest thing is, you know, we talk about how you can only control your reaction. And that goes back to even races, like you can only control, you can only control so much. And how can you react and be who you need to be for your team in the moment, right? There's only so much in as you're trying to navigate getting things done under certain leadership that you just have to be mindful and wary of. But then how are you helping just just develop and improve your team too to kind of achieve what you need to achieve? But it goes back to that what can you control um within yourself as a leader when you're kind of dealing with something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:15

Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah. I appreciate you. And I look forward to the next time we get to connect.

Christine 1:17:21

Yes. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:23

Thank you.