Western States 100, Explained with AJW

Western States 100 has a strange power over people, even the ones who swear they’re not into hype. We talk with AJW, a 10-time Western States finisher, coach, longtime volunteer, and storyteller with deep roots in the race, to put real words to what makes this ultramarathon feel like sacred ground. From the nonprofit ethos to the lived reality of the course, we get into why this event keeps its mystique even as trail running grows louder and more commercial.

We also go practical. AJW lays out what to handle months in advance so race week stays quiet: lodging, crew and pacer plans, vehicles, and the Memorial Day training camp. Then we zoom into the Western States 100 course itself, breaking it into four sections and highlighting five pinch points where runners often lose the plot. We talk wet feet, river crossings, shoe changes, aid station spacing, and why “it’s all downhill” is one of the most dangerous lies you can believe after Foresthill.

Heat is the final boss, and we treat it that way. AJW shares how he approaches heat training with sauna-based heat acclimation, what “cooling” really means in the canyons, and the rookie mistakes he sees every year, from hammering the opening climb to trashing quads on the descents. If you’re chasing a sub-20 Western States finish or just trying to make it to Auburn with a clear head, this gives you a roadmap that’s equal parts strategy and respect for what the day demands.

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Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com

Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Sacred Venues And Sacred Miles

SPEAKER_03 0:00

I talked at the outset about Churchill Downs and Augusta National. I would argue that the Western States 100 course is right up there with them on the Mount Rushmore of sports venues that are incredible and that can change your life just from being a part of them. You know, people ask, people ask, why is the number of starters so limited at Western states? Why not just reroute the course around the wilderness area? And the board says, well, you know what? Then it wouldn't be Western states. There's nothing more both inspirational and aspirational than that. Long after we are gone from this world, Western states will continue. And people will spend years and years and years trying to get in. And they'll finally get a chance to put their feet on that sacred ground, and they'll, and at that point, they'll get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I'll see you at States. See you at States, man. Welcome to On Your Lead, the show about the miles that make you better at life,

Meet AJW And His States Story

SPEAKER_00 1:14

leadership, and everything in between. I'm Thad David, a Marine Recon Scout Sniper veteran, speaker, and endurance athlete. Let's get into it. Welcome to another episode of On Your Lead. I'm here today with a very special guest. I'm extremely excited. We have AJW in the house. AJW is just an incredible human being. And for those of you that don't know, he has so many ties to the Western States 100 endurance run. He's experienced it from almost every possible angle. He's a racer, a 10-time finisher, seven of which were in the top 10. He got second place in 2007, only behind Scott Durek, who that was his seventh win. Joked offline that Durek is now a jerk to me just because he stole this clearly. AJW is also a coach. He's a volunteer at States, parking cars, aid stations, intersections. He's announcing finishers for a couple hours. He also hosts the podcast Crack A Through with AJW, which I highly, highly recommend that you go check out. It's a ton of fun. And then he also writes a running article for iRun Far called AJW's Tap Room. I hope I got everything in there, which it still doesn't seem like enough to describe you, AJW. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 2:36

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Yeah, you got it all. You got it all. Although, oh not not to correct. I wish it was 2007. It was 2005. I know there were a lot of sevens in there. 2000, because I know that there are people out there that will listen and be like, AJW got fourth in 2007. Uh, but it was it was 2005. But yeah, uh, yo, you got everything, and and thank you. That's a fantastic introduction.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

I think uh for anybody that isn't aware of you and what you've done, it just it must be said. Um, I appreciate you jumping on here. And uh, you know, for us just unpacking and having a conversation about the Western States 100 run, I've got a ton of questions for you. Um, I know we spoke about it offline, that I got

Raffle Tickets And The Mission

SPEAKER_00 3:24

a random, one of the, I don't know what the best way to put it, one of the raffle tickets, the charity raffle tickets for 2027. So I've been deep diving into this race. I have a million questions. I'm a big obsessive person with this race. And for me, I'm curious to know, just like being this exposed, because it's been, I mean, 25 years, is that accurate that you've been a part of this race?

SPEAKER_03 3:44

Yep. Yep. I ran it, I ran it for the first time in 2001. So yeah, this will be my 25th year going up there. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

It's in just in, I mean, amazing to think about. And when you think about Western States and all the years that you've been a part of it, like how would you describe it? I mean, is it a race for you? Is it a community, some weird ritual? Like, what if it's for you?

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Well, first of all, congratulations on getting in. And and I mean, if if listeners are out there saying, hey, how'd this guy get in? The raffle ticket system is an entirely, and in fact, it's part of answering your question. The the race has has offered up raffle tickets for about 20 years now, and people will buy raffle tickets. And if they get drawn, these are this is different than the lottery, but if they get drawn, they can be in the race or they can transfer that lot, that raffle ticket to somebody else. And as long as they run a qualifier, they can go to the race. So, first of all, and all of the proceeds, and I know this for a fact, all of the proceeds from those raffle tickets, and it's thousands and thousands of dollars every year because people realize it's it's not a bad way to get into the race, um, go right back into the core mission of Western states, which in this, in most, in the case of the raffle tickets are for trail work, trail design, trail preservation, and the medical research that Western States has been doing now for you know over four decades. You know, to me, Thad, Western States is way, way more than a race. It's um, you know, it there's I when I first ran it in 2001, of course, I thought it was a race. As I went through years and years of running it, it would, it took on more special meaning as as a as an event, as a as at once kind of homecoming weekend and family reunion and a competitive historical uh event all rolled into one. And and now in the dozen years since I last ran it, I last ran it in 2014, it's certainly become a community. There's a vibe about it. There's something distinctly unique about Western states in the, I believe, in the entire world of sports. You know, I would I would say you might you might find parallels, a few parallels with things like the Masters Golf Tournament or or the Kentucky Derby, where history and a venue and a desire for competition and enough attention that it really doesn't, it it perpetuates itself. You know, the race is it per whether it's because it's a it's a nonprofit organization governed by a nonprofit all volunteer board, just a few paid staff members, that's it. And yet it sustains this incredible mystique, I believe, that um that is really unique. Or as I mentioned, there's there's only a couple of other types of sports events that that have this same thing. It takes place at the same place every year. It has there's so many parts of it that are that are you know that just everybody knows about, whether it's the rucky chucky river crossing or the fact that it's usually 110 degrees, or that you can only, there's only 369 starters every year. I mean, there's so much about it that's like, man, that just being a part of it, for me being a part of it, first as an athlete and now subsequently as a volunteer and a member of the media and and everything else, it's just I mean, it's the best weekend of the year, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Well, I'm I'm so excited. Uh actually, because

Why You Have To See It

SPEAKER_00 7:33

you mentioned the media as well. Actually, this year I volunteered to run cameras. So I'm actually coming out this year, even though the run is that I'll be racing it or running it next year. So I'm excited to experience it there. But you actually hit on something that I'd like a little help with because I struggle with like all of these things. You mentioned Kentucky Derby, the Masters, all of these huge iconic um events that just try to express the magnitude of it. But when I when I mentioned to people, for instance, the day that I got in, I was with a buddy in California. He's like, Oh wow, like what happened? I was like, I got into this this race. I mean, it's incredible. And he just said, Oh yeah, my mom signed up for a half marathon here in town. And like for him, that was the comparison. I'm like, no, it's but I struggle to put into words for anybody that doesn't know. So, like, for you, how do you describe this event, this race to people?

SPEAKER_03 8:29

I mean, there's for years you could kind of say, oh, it's the Boston marathon of ultras. If people know Boston, then you might be like, well, it's it's kind of like so, like everybody wants to qualify and run Boston. So if they understand marathons, you could say, well, it's it's that. It's the Boston Marathon. If they don't understand that, but they've maybe heard of ultras, they'll usually say something like, Well, is that like that run in Death Valley? You know, bad water, because people a lot of people have heard from bad water in sort of the mainstream world. But honestly, and this is part of the mystique, it's like you got to see it to believe it. I have a story about this. My mom, still alive, lives in Massachusetts. When I first started running Ultras in the mid-90s and then started running 100 milers in 2000, 2000, she just did not understand it. She literally did not get it. She was like, why do you do this? You're gonna die out there, your knees are gonna explode. And I said to her, you know what, mom? You know what? You got to get on a plane and fly out here, and you've just got to see it. And honestly, Thad, to me, that's what really makes it come alive. So you're gonna come to it for the yes, you can see it on the live stream, you can see all the videos, you can see everything that all the brands put out. But until you're on the ground in Olympic Valley and at Robinson Flat and at Michigan Bluff and at Duncan Canyon and Dusty Corners and the Rucky Chuck, until you're on the ground and until you're on the ground, especially at the Placer High School finish line, it's really hard to get it. It's really hard for anybody, even someone like myself who's been in, you know, engrossed and embedded in the event for 25 years, to really do it justice by explaining it. As soon as my mom went out there, obviously she was cheering me on. She was part of the crew. This was 20-something years ago. She did get it. You know, and now every year she's like, oh, you're going back to States again, aren't you, Andy? You know? And I think that that's it is unfortunately or fortunately, it's one of those things where you've got to sort of see it to believe it. But to a one, to a one, people who get frustrated and angry that it takes them 10 years to get in at the lottery, or they're like, oh, this thing is overhyped and I don't want to go. I'm much more in tune to just running on my own in solitude in the mountains. I have had for now two decades people come up to me. Maybe they come, they maybe they've been running ultras for 20 years and they finally go to Western states. They'll come to me, you know, we'll be hot and exhausted, you know, at the high school after the award ceremony. They'll be like, AJW, I get it now. I get it, you know. And somehow, somehow, and this is the brilliance of the race, and this is another parallel to like the masters in the Kentucky Derby. The brilliance of the race is they can balance this incredible tradition and history and culture with all the new stuff, with innovation, with technology, with live streams, with brands coming in and doing activations in the middle of the road at Forest Hill, you know, Nike putting up a two-story thing or Hoka creating their entire village, you know, they're able to balance that with being the core greatest ultra run in North America. And kudos to them. And when you're there, you'll see it. I mean, you'll see it. And it's you and it gets in your blood.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

I'm couldn't be more excited to see it, to experience it. Um, specifically, I I've heard you reference how much it can actually like runners can struggle with it if they if you experience it for the first time when you're going to run it, that it can almost be overwhelming that you show up and there's so much energy. And that part of that was just listening to the advice that you gave. I was like, I think I need to go this year. One, I can volunteer and help out, but two, just to get the hopefully some of that excitement dump uh out of the way so that next year I can fully focus on that.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

So it's yeah, it can, it can, it can be an overwhelming experience for for newcomers if they've never been there. Um but but I also think, you know, depending on the kind of person you are, it can also be really exciting and exhilarating. So uh but it's good. I mean, I've I've often said to people if they have a chance to go and volunteer or pace a buddy or crew a friend or you know, or or just be part, be part of it. Just even if you just go to cheered forest hill and go to the finish line, you know, you'll you'll get you'll get you'll you'll get an understanding of what it's all about. But there's nothing but there's nothing like running it. I mean, there's nothing like running it.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

That's that's everything I read, everything I hear, everybody says, and I've heard you mention it a couple of times that when you get in, it's worth every it's ever every day that you had to wait, it's worth it. And so it's it seems like a very special place. And just a special race that it's been able to hold on to it for this long. So I'd love to dive deeper into now, not

Control Logistics Before Training Peaks

SPEAKER_00 13:36

and I guess this would not even be quite the coaching side just yet, because I love listening to unpacking what it looks like. But there's so many things, it's tough to find information on the western states. You know, somebody that wants to go out there, you know, like I had to really dig deep. Like, where is it located? Where in I know I know it's in Olympic Valley, but where specifically is it? Um, there were things that I it it wasn't an easy thing to track down and find. And yes, I found it, but as a runner, and you let's say you're coaching a runner, what do you tell them to prep for heading into, you know, where right now it's happening next week. So I'm sure you've got a handful of people you're coaching for it. What are you telling them to do? Where are they staying? How are they getting ready right now? As they think we're we're you know, 10, 10 days out, maybe eight days out.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Well, I mean, the the training, the the haze in the barn with training, uh for sure. Um, you know, typically at this time, literally a week before the race, depending on where they're from, the biggest like we're just gonna I'll I'll go backwards on this. The biggest thing they got to be doing right now is is heat training. You know, maybe they come from Minnesota or wherever. They've got to be heat training, even if it looks like it's not gonna be a hot year, which it does look like this year is gonna be a hot year. It's trending hot and it's it's probably gonna trend hotter, just as I've as I've trended, as I've seen the weather, the way it plays out each and every year. I think it's gonna be, it's not hot right now, but it looks like it's gonna be a pretty steep ramp. So that's the first thing. You got to heat train. But I tell I mean, as soon as I get in, is I typically get calls, you know, right after the lottery or or you know, after someone gets in and they're like, oh, I I want to, I want you, I want you to coach me. You know, the first thing I'll say, and I and and I'll and I'll preach this is take care of everything that you can control now, right? So book your Airbnb. Figure out who's gonna be your crew and pacers. Figure it out if you're gonna have one crew or two crews. If you're gonna have two crews, where where is the one gonna go and where's the other one gonna go? Are you gonna go to Memorial Day training camp? Are you are what what do you have in your life? How can you map out your life over these next six months to make sure that you don't get bogged down with too many things that might be unpredictable? You know, too many, you obviously life, life is life, you know, stuff's gonna happen. But you don't, this is not the time to, you know, do a major house renovation or or move or something unless you have to, right? You wanna you this is like six months to to to zone in on what would will likely be for most people a once-in-a-lifetime experience, right? So take care of what you can control and do that stuff. Do that in January, February, and March. So when you get to April and May and it's like all about the training and dialing in, you know, you know where your Airbnb is, you your flights are booked, your rental car is booked, you know your your two buddies who went you went to college with are going to come out and pace you and and all. So then you can just sort of let the quiet settle in, you know, and go. Now, I do advise, I don't insist, but I do advise if people can go to the Memorial Day weekend training camp. And if the listeners don't know about this, it's three days over Memorial Day weekend. Runners can cover 70 miles of the course. To me, it's the best, it's actually one of the best values in ultra running. The first day costs 60 bucks, the next two days cost 50 bucks each. They have bus, they provide bus transportation to the start of each day's run. They have full Western states quality aid stations, just like they do on the race day. I mean, it's incredible. And and whether you're from right around the corner or you're from across the country, obviously not a lot of international runners can come, but being able to see 70 miles of the course over three days without having the stress and the panic of like race day, it's really valuable. So, I mean, those are the kinds of things that I sort of, in sort of outlining an entire plan for Western states, I do, you know, you you're better off coming into Western states over prepared on all the details and logistics, and even a little underprepared in terms of the training. You know, you want to you want to be primed and ready to go. But you know, training for a hundred miler, you might have a little, you know, an achy hamstring or a little plantar fasciitis that flares up or an ankle issue. And you want to use this time where we are right now to let all that stuff settle in. So when the gun goes off and the adrenaline starts pumping, you know, all that is is by the wayside, and all you got to do is get to Auburn.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Removing as many decisions, any of those things as possible.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Control the controllables.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

I love how you casually throw out like a little planner if SGI does just, you know, and it's just a normal part of you. Like if you're running ultras, like there's gonna be things that are that are hurting. Um on a side note, too, it always makes me laugh because I've I've heard you mention um in a previous interview that don't start a house rent out right before don't and it makes me laugh because last I ran the Leadville last year. Yeah, and we also we sold our house. Um, and the day that the only day that we could move when we bought a new house and sold was the day before I drove up to Leadville. So and then a whole like we moved our entire house, it just was the worst possible thing ever. So it's like, yeah, AJW knows what he's talking about.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

Yeah, don't don't sell your house next year in June.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, no, we don't want to. It's definitely not gonna happen. Well, and one of the questions I actually had, and this is from the perspective of having

Crew Strategy And Course Geography

SPEAKER_00 19:29

never been there, and I think I've read a stat, was it 80% of Western States runners are new runners, first-time runners. And so for me, I want to ask questions from that perspective because I hear people discussing it, and I don't fully understand the why behind it. Like it makes sense to me. But for instance, you mentioned crew one, crew two, and I get that it's it's kind of an access point. Like, why is it that you can only have one crew going in one direction? Like, I is it we're we're popping the canyon. Like, what is that that stops that?

SPEAKER_03 20:04

All right, a couple things to address there. First, on the so I've actually tracked this. I'm not a scientist, but I've tracked the the 80% um our first timers since just since 2021. So the you know, the COVID, the COVID cancellation gave us a lot of time to sort of regroup and and and so from 2021 to the present, I've kind of kept track more unofficially of kind of the starting list and how many people are starting the race having never run the race. And I I think the average over the last five years has been about 82, 83 percent. So literally four out of five runners that are on that trail when the race starts have never run the race before. Now that's there's a reason for that, right? I mean, you gotta wait a long, long time to get in. And unless you're you know a super elite runner, once you get in, let's say you wait seven years and you finally get picked in the lottery, now you're back to zero. So the likelihood of you getting in again, in you know, it you you would just have to be the world's luckiest person. So I think for that, in and of itself, is why you have so many new, you know, first timers. And I and I don't anticipate that that changing very much, you know. Um, with respect to the cruise, I mean, the course, the course design is absolutely brilliant. Of course, the course design is is the way it is because it's the way it's always been. I mean, that's Western states. But you asked the you asked a really important question. Once you leave Olympic Valley and you climb the escarpment and then you go across um the Granite Chief Wilderness and you get into the first aid station at Lion Ridge, you're on, you're literally on a ridge. And you take that ridge all the way to Red Star Ridge, which is basically along that ridge. It it mostly trends downhill. But it's and it's it's a ridge that, you know, the east side of the ridge is dry or drier, I should say, and the west side of the ridge is is wet or moist, right? It's the that's the side of the ridge that goes towards the Pacific Ocean. Now, you might be saying, well, this is weird. I thought western states trended east to west, and it does, but this is at a point where it's sort of trending eastward and westward. So the eastern side of that ridge is where there are two key aid stations, Duncan Canyon and Dusty Corners. They're mile 24 and 38. And the west side of that ridge, the wet side, if you will, is where um Robinson Flat and Michigan Bluff are. And just by virtue of the fact that it's a huge, a big mountain ridge and the way the roads are, there's no way a single crew vehicle could get to all four of those places. To get from Duncan Canyon across the ridge to Robinson Flat, back across the ridge to Dusty Corners, and back across the ridge to Michigan Bluff. So racers have to make a couple of decisions. And by the way, you're asking what I would ask race, I would have asked them to make this decision a long time ago, too. If you're going to have one crew, where are they going to go? Are they going to go to Robinson Flat and Michigan Bluff or Duncan Canyon and Dusty Corners? And then they might say, Well, AJW, where do you think they should go? And I'll say, okay, well, this is, I'll give you the choice. If you go to Robinson and Michigan Bluff, the driving is really easy. There's not a lot of curvy mountain roads. There's some, but not a lot of curvy mountain roads, no dirt roads, no, you know, but it's a pain in the butt to park. You have to park, then you have to get on a shuttle bus, then you have to take that shuttle bus to the aid station. So if your crew would be cool with that, then they do it. If not, and you and you only have one crew and you want them to go to Duncan Canyon and Dusty Corners, they're going to drive remote mountain roads, twisting and turning. It's probably going to take an hour and a half. You don't want your sister who always gets motion sickness to go on that side, you know? And then you as a runner have to ask, where do I want my crew? Do I want them at mile 24 and 38? And then again at 62, which is Forest Hill. By the way, the two crews would then come together at Forest Hill, mile 62, and they're together for the whole rest of it. And so that's why it's a thing. And if, and a lot of people will just do one crew and then they just decide which side they want to go on based on whatever factors. You know, for people who would rather not have, you know, on the Duncan and Dusty side, you don't have to get on a shuttle bus. You can just park and kind of walk up to the aid station and set up your stuff. There's there's less crowds, there's less noise, there's less media. It's just a little quieter over there. That's kind of why I go over there. I go to the Duncan Canyon side, but I also go over there because parking is a big issue. You have to, it's a it's a very, it's a dry area, it's prone to fires. Like the parking, you got to make sure people are parking correctly. And and so when I first started going over there, they sort of sent me over there because they were like, well, people will listen to you. And so if you if I just tell them, you know, you you can't park here, you have to park there. And now that I've been doing it for seven years, you know, I I I think I've kind of got it figured out. But that's the crew one, crew two thing. And and those are those are kind of important decisions to make, um, even you know, five, six months out of the race.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Well, and that that gives me great context too, because in my mind, I was imagining, are we flip-flopping between a canyon? I'm even looking at the elevation profile, and you just, you know, you see this line jotting upwards and then mostly downwards. But I'm wondering, is it a ridge? Is it a canyon? And then do they actually, there's one crew that's on one side, do they both meet up, or does somebody have to double back around through Tahoe and they have a couple extra hours of driving?

SPEAKER_03 26:01

No, no one has to double, everyone has to double back through um Forest Hill. So um, you never go back up to Tahoe. Once, once you leave Tahoe, you drive down, you basically every everybody drives down to Auburn. They turn, they get up, they get on the Forest Hill Road and drive up the course to Forest Hill. If you're going to go to Robinson Flat and Michigan Bluff, you just keep going straight. If you're going to go to uh Duncan Canyon and Dusty Corners, you turn right on Mosquito Ridge Road and you make your way up all the way to Duncan Canyon. So, and then when when you're done, when that's done, so when the runner, when the runner goes through Dusty Corners, that side, those guys just drive back and sit there at Forest Hill. And when the runner is done at Michigan Bluff, those guys just drive back and wait at Forest Hill. Usually what people do, if they have two vehicles, they sort of merge those vehicles into one. They wait for the runner to get through Forest Hill, then they drive down to Auburn, drop off one of the vehicles, and then go back up and meet the runner at the at the river crossing.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

That makes sense. And you mentioned the river crossing too, which is recently had another thought that came up. I didn't obviously know about the the river crossings that are there. There's

Wet Feet And River Crossings

SPEAKER_00 27:14

some pretty iconic pictures that come from it, different things like that. Yet it sounds like your feet are wet for a large portion of this race. Is that oh yeah? Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Yeah, yeah. You're even if it's even if it's not a very snowy year, like this year won't be very snowy. I mean, there's a section, I mean, from mile five to eight where you're kind of running through sort of a creek bed and there's a lot of runoff, and yeah, your feet get wet right then and there. Um, when you go through Duncan, so after the Duncan Canyonade station at mile 24, about a mile later, you cross Duncan Creek. They usually have a rope there. It's not like going across Rucky Chucky, but you can't, you can't like rock hop across that. It's in any given year, it's it's knee deep to waist deep for people. And then um, and then when you get when you get to Robinson Flat, you could put on dry shoes and and you could run pretty much all the way with dry feet if you wanted to in a non-snowy year, kind of all the way to volcano canyon. So the canyon that's between Michigan Bluff and Forest Hill, there's not a bridge going across that creek, and your feet are gonna get wet in there. Um, and then of your of course your feet are gonna get wet at Rocky Truckee River Crossing, because that's I mean, even if you even if you're even if they're doing boats, this year they're not gonna do boats. When the when the river level's really high, they do boats, but you're gonna have to wade across and it's gonna be like up to your chest for most people. Like you're holding the rope. And so yeah, your feet are I mean, if if you don't like running in wet feet at western speeds, you have to you have to really plan your shoe changes and your drop bags and everything. Now, once you get across the river and now you're at mile 78, you can pretty much run the rest of it with dry feet. So you you'd have to plan that out. But yeah, I mean you're you're gonna have to think through that if you're not used to running in wet feet.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Well, that's I guess it just didn't hit me how much. And it makes sense, but up in the high country, way up there, I just didn't imagine that there would be that much water. And it was, I mean, that to me that's just good to know because that's bland.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

I have a well and think of and think about it too. Like it's western states, you've got to do a lot to cool yourself down. So even at eights, I mean, people are dumping ice on your head and sponges, and I mean, people will try to keep the water out of your shoes, but it's it's kind of hard. You know, if you're if you're throwing a big, huge ice bandana on and ice in your backpack and whatever else, I mean, there's water everywhere. So um, most most most western states veterans would tell you you you should probably practice running with wet feet.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Well, that was what I was actually thinking. I'm I'm down in Florida right now. The humidity is through the roof. I've I did a little 12-mile run this morning, and my feet were soaking wet with sweat. And I was like, this is probably good training just to have wet feet. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

Oh, and that and that sort of humidity. I mean, when I lived in Virginia and Arkansas, yeah, I'd get back from runs and like I could wring my socks out, you know. So yeah, you want to you want to get you you want to be you want to be ready for that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah, that's and it just didn't cross my mind. And again, I'm thinking about these first-time runners that maybe don't know. I have a uh a buddy of mine, I actually met him at the lottery. Um, his name's Neil, just a fantastic guy. He's an amazing story. He's actually been applying. I want to say he's applied for the last 14 years, and he had a little gap where he had a um his son was born, he stopped applying. Neil, if I'm misquoting you, I apologize. But in any case, very long time. This was his 10th year applying. Um, and he's in the race this year. And so I was kind of messaging him and just chatting with him, and it's like, man, what questions? What are you thinking? And he was actually one of the things he had mentioned too is just shoes. And this is what like, how many shoes do you coach people to bring? Are you actually coaching them

Shoe Changes And Drop Bag Planning

SPEAKER_00 31:18

to change shoes often? Are you saying, like, is three enough, four enough? Um, or do you just run one pair of shoes the whole time?

SPEAKER_03 31:25

I mean, I mean, shoes are that the the shoe thing is is very, very personal. I mean, my I I I ran, uh, so there's there's uh I'm just I just had to look this up. There's Neil Kelly from Tell Your Ride and Neil Feldman from Boylston, Massachusetts. Neil Feldman, 55 years old from Massachusetts. Look at him. 512 tickets and got in off the wait list. We got you gotta be rooting for that guy.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Gotta be rooting for that. He is a he's a saint. Like we get we ran me and my wife randomly sat next to him and just a super kind human being in general and just rooting for him. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Yeah, so so I mean, if you're if you're gonna change shoes, um you I would strongly recommend doing it at Robinson Flat. You're out of the high country. In fact, even in terms of like the type of shoe, the most technical, quote unquote technical part of Western States is the first 30 miles. So maybe you would use something with a bigger lug or with a little bit more grip or something like that. Once you get to my Robinson Flat, you could shift into something with a with a more mellow lug, you know, something that drains really well, but you know, you don't need, you don't need a big, beefy trail shoe like you'd need for something like hard rock or UTMB. And then you could run the whole rest of the thing uh without changing shoes. But if you do want to have dry feet, then you'd definitely want to change shoes at Forest Hill, because you would have just come through Volcano Canyon, and then you'd want to change shoes either at the river crossing or when you get up to Greengate, which is the aid station, two miles above the river crossing. So let's see, what would that be? One, two, like three shoe changes. So start with a pair, change at Robinson, change at Forest Hill, and change after the river crossing. I don't think you'd need to change anymore. Now, a lot of people will change socks but not shoes, um, just because they like the shoes they're wearing or whatever. And and socks or something, they're easy enough. You could just throw them in your pack and and change socks anywhere. You don't need to have a crew there or anything like that. So um a lot of it, a lot of it's sort of a matter of personal taste, but uh, but I think at at a base level, as I'm coaching people, I'd say, yeah, you know, travel and they're traveling, I'd say, hey, travel out with with four pairs. The full the pair you're gonna start with, and three others that your crew is just gonna have, just in case.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

That's makes a lot of sense. And I'm really glad I asked because it's something that uh to me, I just like to train for things and get ready for it. So before we jump into the race, because I want to really break down and hear, Isaiah, I want to hear you break down the course and what it looks like. But as you think about race week and getting there, so if we're gonna

Race Week Traditions Without Burnout

SPEAKER_00 34:17

let's say somebody gets in town on Wednesday, um, are there some things that are just must-do items for you that you tell people, hey, you're here, you gotta do this, and then other things that's like you need to get some time off a feet.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Um you know, there's there's so much hype and and stuff going on at the at Olympic Valley on race week that is really, really super fun for people who aren't in the race, but maybe a distraction for people who are in the race. And so I'd I would highlight a couple of things to to consider for like let's say you got in on Wednesday, um, for the for and this is specific to the runner. Um if they if you get in early enough on Wednesday, I would certainly say, you know, hike the first two to three miles up the opening climb and just hike it, just to just to see it. There's so much hype. People you've seen all the videos, you've seen all this, just and with your friends, with your family, whoever, just hike up it. Um, and you know, you'll have you'll meet other people who are doing that. You're not running up it, you know, you're just just to just to see it. Hey, ah, we're here at Western States. I'm gonna hike up and I'm I'm gonna see this. Um the board, Mo Livermore and uh uh John Trent and some of the more historic uh Western states kind of icons organize what's called the flag raising at Emigrant Pass on Thursday morning. Um some people hike, and that's the climb all the way to the top of the escarpment. Some people hike, it's I think they leave at 10 o'clock in the morning. Some people hike, hike the whole thing, but in recent years you're able to take the tram up to the high camp and then just hike the last mile up to the top. And up there, up there, if you're if you're at all interested in kind of the the history and the traditions and the things that make western states great, um, that's a fantastic thing to participate in. They every year they they recognize the Western states um luminaries who've passed away since the last year. You know, they kind of do a tribute to those people who've who passed during the year. They they read some some writings from Wendell Roby, essentially the founder of the race, you know, big guy in the when the horse race was the only thing. Uh, and just um just an opportunity to be together up there. It's it's really, it's really, really cool. Then the next day for like crews and pacers, there's uh there's a run. You can you know Hoka puts on a run. You're the runners don't want to do that, but it's a good thing for pacers and runner and crew to run off a little energy, just like leave the leave the runner in the Airbnb with his feet, his or her feet up and and do that. And and then, I mean it's mandatory, but you've got to go to the pre-race briefing. And and the pre-race briefing at two o'clock on Friday, it's it's kind of an event in and of itself. You get to see, you know, they bring out all the you know, all the top runners, and you know, there's uh they get introduced. There's there's usually uh greeting from from the race director, from the chairman of the board, from it it's a real good, and again, it's like everything with Western states, it's it's understated. It's not like there's a lot of music playing or or you know, lights flashing or everything else. There's it's just it's just the the opening ceremony. It it always lasts exactly one hour, like it doesn't drag on or anything like that. And and so I mean, I would say those would be kind of the keys uh for for a runner. Um, but but I also say, I also will say to a lot of if I'm coaching a runner in the race, I'll say, you know, and I'll ask them, are you an introvert or an extrovert? You know, do you get gender, do you, do you gain energy from being around people, or do you gain energy from being by yourself? Because we know there's both of those types in trail and ultra running. And if you're if you're a true introvert, it could be absolutely overwhelming just walking down the main plaza of Olympic Valley. Whereas if you're a true extrovert, you're gonna be like, oh, I know that guy and I met that guy, and I want to get a selfie with that guy and and all this stuff, right? And so that's the kind of thing you want to think through also before it, because you know, it's this once-in-a-lifetime thing. Um, but that would be, that would be kind of, I think that that would sort of summarize what I would think. There's all sorts of other stuff going on, activations and interviews with the elites and and you know, this, that, and the other. That you, you know, crews and pacers love that stuff. I encourage racers to sort of steer clear of that.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Well, and that's to me, that's that preparation. Have enough things decided before you get there. Yeah. Because I'm I'm gonna be just I'm the extrovert. I, you know, I need to have a game plan of shut it down, or else I'm gonna be out moving around, which I think could be detrimental if, you know, when it comes time to actually run it, could be detrimental to spend too much time wandering on my feet. So I think it's I mean, it's great advice that if you're here, like you said, I heard you and Coop reference it. I I really enjoyed y'all's walkthrough of it, but it's that once in a lifetime, but also first in a lifetime thing that it's like that's a great way to put it. That that's a it's a have a plan for what success looks like. So I I really appreciate that. Um, so as you think about the race, the course, I think I've I've heard

Four Sections And Five Pinch Points

SPEAKER_00 40:06

it divided up into a few different ways, like four kind of sections of the course, but also what around five pinch points. And I was hoping you could just walk us through those four sections and the five pinch points or and anything else that you have inside of that.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

Yeah, so I I adhere to the tradition, what what I would call the traditional way of dividing up the course into four sections. The the high country, and and by the way, these are not equal in length. It's not like you can take western states and divide it into four 25 mile chunks, right? You've got the high country, the canyons, Cal Street, and the finish. And I call it the finish, but it's 22 miles, but it's it's the sort of the final, the final street. Within those, I've identified five what I call pinch points. These are places where, in my opinion, over years of running it and observing it, both from front, middle, and back of the pack, these pinch points are places where you could you could win the race, not just literally win the race, but like figuratively win your own race, and you could lose the race. So I'll I'll kind of run through this. The high country is the start to Robinson Flat. It's called the High Country. Most of it is above 6,000 feet. It tops up at about 8,800 at the top of uh the escarpment, and it sort of gently runs downhill with a few ups. I mentioned the ridge, the ridge that divides the wet west side from the east side. Aid stations are pretty far apart. Um, you know, you have an aid station at mile 10, an aid station at mile 17, an aid station at mile 24, and then you get to Robinson Flat at mile 30. So first thing to think about there is, you know, what do you need to get between those aid stations? I mean, they're not like distances we see these days in 200 milers, where there's like 22 miles between aid stations. But for but for typical hundred miles, 100 milers, you know, seven miles between aid stations is pretty far. So you're gonna want to think through your hydration, your nutrition, whether you whether you put a drop bag at Red Star Ridge or not. You know, those are the kinds of things you want to think about, especially if you are deciding to not have a crew go to Duncan Canyon. But, you know, you start, you bump, bump along. My first pinch point, and the only pinch point in the in the high country, is Duncan Creek to Robinson Flat. So you get to Duncan Canyon Aid Station at mile 24. You cross the creek. This is where I said the first place, second place, your feet are going to get really wet at mile 26, and you have a four-mile climb up to Robinson Flat. And it's a gradual enough climb that you feel like you should run it. It's early enough in the race that you have the energy to run it. Um, and it's way too early to push yourself. In addition, the first half of the climb, the entire first two miles, is really exposed because there was a fire down there now, 20 years ago, and nothing has really grown back. So you're, and it's really the first time, especially if it's gonna be a hot year. Think about it, you're you've you're at mile 25. So with a 5 a.m. start, maybe it's 9.30, 10 in the morning for like a 24 hour hopeful. It's the first time where you're gonna get an idea about what the heat will be like for the race that day. And so it's really, really important for people to pay attention on that section. Not to mention the fact you can't really get out there and train before the race. It's usually snow covered and you know, until late into the season. So you're even if you go to Memorial Day training camp, you're you're only going to see. That section on race day for the first time. So you get through the high country, start to Robinson Flat, and then you begin the canyons. I think most people, if they know anything about Western states, they know that runners have to traverse three steep, hot canyons in the middle of the day. These are canyons that date back to the gold rush days. They go through like iconic old gold mining towns like Last Chance and Devil's Thumb and Michigan Bluff. I mean, these are places from the 1850s and 60s. That's the whole reason the trail exists. And in fact, there's even some sections as you're leaving Last Chance and beginning the descent to the swinging bridge before climbing to Devil's Thumb, where you have old broken-down mining equipment like on the side of the trail. It's really cool. What happens though is a lot of people go through the first canyon, Deadwood Canyon, go through the second canyon, El Dorado Canyon. They get to Michigan Bluff, mile 55, they see their crew. They're like, oh, thank God I'm done with the canyons. And then they're like, no, no, no, no, no. You've still got the sneaky little sister of canyons, Volcano Canyon, which is the one from Michigan Bluff to Forest Hill. It's seven miles. Some of it's on road, some of it's on pretty sketchy single track. You cross a river at the bottom, you can't help but get your feet wet. You have to grind back up. Then you get out on a paved road that's usually always hot. You have to run up this paved road for about another 1.2 miles before you finally make the left-hand turn and get down into Forest Hill. And that's pinch point number two. It's just, it's just a pain in the butt to get through that canyon. You get to Michigan Bluff, you're like, yeah, it's over. No, it's not. And I want to I want to tell a little bit of story here because I had a terrible time in that canyon. The first time I ran the race in 2001, and I was talking to my wife about it. I was like, why did I have such a terrible time? And she was like, well, maybe you don't know it enough. And if we were living in the Bay Area at the time, and so I went down in the spring of 2024, which was the next time I was in the race, and I literally ran from Forest Hill to Michigan Bluff, back to Forest Hill, back to Michigan Bluff, back. I did it twice. So I basically just only did that. I did whatever that would be, a 28-mile run, just back and forth, back and forth, just to sort of just to be like, okay, now I now I understand why this sucks so much, but at least now I've done it a bunch of times that I'll at least know what I'm in for on race day.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

What did you guys?

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Oh no, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

No, you go.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Well, I was gonna ask you just I'm so curious because I've heard that reference several times by you, and it looks scary, which by the way, I talked to Neil because he did go to uh the training camp, which he second, he said it was fantastic, great time, but it it surprised him, and he's a veteran ultra runner. He's done he's done the lead man, um, he's just done a ton of hundred-mile races, and he said he was blown away by how steep everything was, that it just doesn't do it justice. But like devil's thumb is a steep, steep climb. So for volcano canyon to be pinchpoint, like what what is secret did you find? Like, what was it that you uncovered that was the secret to getting through that one?

SPEAKER_03 47:34

Well, devil's thumb is you're right, devil's thumb is very steep, right? Thousand, a thousand feet per mile. I think anybody would say that's steep. Um, but you kind of like people know that. People are scared of devil's thumb. It's like, well, it's going to be 2,000 feet and two miles um, you know, in the heat of the day. That's that's not gonna be very much fun. But um, but volcano, the thing about volcano is you're you're lulled into a false sense of security as you're leaving Michigan Bluff on this nice smooth road. Then you get on this single track that's it's gotten smoother in the last couple of years, but still there's a lot of horses that go through there. It's it's kind of rutted out. It's one of those parts of the Western States, of course, it's kind of like a ditch. It's really dusty, you know. It uh it doesn't, it's not technical, but it's just it's kind of not fun to go down. Plus, you've got 57 miles on your legs, so maybe you're starting to feel your quads a little bit going down this. And then you have to cross this creek to get your feet wet again, and this grind up this steep climb that then has this very steep section. It's only about a 400 meters long, but it's steep. I mean, it's like a 22% grade, completely exposed, like no trees, no anything. You're just right out there that leads up to this paved road I was talking about. So if you're if you're having a bad time before that, you're gonna have a really bad time, you know, going up that climb. So just preparing yourself for that is what I try to tell people. Is like, don't think you're done with the canyons when you get to Michigan Bluff.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Well, that and that makes perfect sense. I mean, that's that expectation of when you look at the when you're looking at the course profile, like those two with Devil's Thumb um and El Dorado, they like they if they're obvious. And then to have that right after Michigan, like I can see it. Like I'm mentally, if it if not mentioned, I could see that as just being a real kick in the tail.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

Yeah. I mean, if you're if you're one of those people who just goes on elevation profile and you look at the elevation profile of volcano, you're like, oh, that's not that bad. I mean, that's that's just a little downhill and a little uphill. Um, okay, so you get to Forest Hill, uh you see crew, there's all the there's all the Forest Hill stuff going on. My huge advice there is don't get caught up in it. Don't get caught up in it. Make sure your crew, they're gonna be at a specific spot. They're gonna do whatever they're gonna do, put your ice bandana on, change your clothes depending on your pacing. You're gonna have to make sure you leave out of there with a headlamp, you know, kind of do all, do all the things you do when you're 100K into a hundred miler, and then get the heck out of there. All right. Now, one of the great, and you're on Cal Street. Uh, it's named Cal Street because when you make a left turn off of Forest Hill Road, if you're on a road called California Street, you're basically on it for 100 yards, and then you cross Mosquito Ridge Road and you're on the trail going down to the river crossing. Um, big mistake, and then it's 16 miles. It's 16 miles from that point to the Rucky Chucky River crossing, mile 62 to mile 78. The biggest mistake people make on that section is they're like, oh my gosh, I'm at Cal Street. It's all downhill to the river. And the truth is, it mostly is. You know, Forest Hill sits at about 3,200, and the river crossing is less than a thousand feet. So you're you're gonna drop, you're gonna drop over 2,200 feet on gradual, nice, smooth single track, you know, all the way from Forest Hill to the river. But between Cal 1 and Cal 2, between mile, what would that be? 65 and 70, it's a five-mile section, and it is not all downhill. There are 15 rollers through there. And I I encourage people if you're listening to this and you're running a race and you're like, AJW, you're full of crap. There's no way you can you can count them. Go out there and count them. There's 15 of them, 15 uphills. Some of them are real short, some of them are longer, some of them you can run, some of them you absolutely have to walk, and they kick you in the teeth after going downhill straight out of Forest Hill. It's like, wait a minute, I thought it was all downhill to the river. What are these uphills doing here? And and they're there. And they it's death by a thousand cuts. It's death by a thousand cuts through there. And that is pinch point number three. I mean, there are people, there are people who have gotten to Forest Hill ready to break 20 hours, ready to break 24 hours. They're they're six hours ahead of the cutoffs and they're ready to go. And by the time they get to the Rucky Chucky River crossing, they're like, what the heck happened to me? Uh, and Cal Street will kick your butt, and most especially that section from Cal 1 to Cal 2. That's when the quad soreness kicks in. That's when the blisters start to hurt. That's when maybe your stomach rebels because maybe you ate too much food up at Forest Hill. So you've got to, you've got to dispel this notion that it's all downhill to the river because it's not. Um, it's mostly downhill, but the parts that aren't downhill are definitely not downhill.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

I can see it. It's just it's almost, I mean, you mentioned the death by a thousand cuts. I mean, it sounds brutal at this point because I I also because I did uh the quad rock 50 mile air, which is I live in Colorado, that's where I reside. And it's a 50-mile race, it's like 11,000 foot vertical climb. I mean, it's a it's a it's a lot of up and down, but finish, I was like, oh, that was that's tough. I mean, it's three weeks after my 100k, so I'm probably not the best, you know, probably put those a little too close together. But then when I pulled up the elevation gain, I mean you're you're covering that much in the first 50 to 60 miles of Western states. That there's, I mean, there's a lot, most of the elevation is coming right there. So to have this little meat grinder of up and down right here, I could see it as just slicing up your legs if you're not ready for it.

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Yeah. Yeah, and keep in mind too, Western States goes downhill for 23,000 feet and only uphill for 18,000. So you're going a lot more downhill, and you got to be ready for that. Then you cross, then you cross the river. Everybody loves crossing the river. It's like I've seen all the pictures, I've seen the videos, I'm I'm here, I'm 78 miles into Western States. I've made it, I can smell the barn. And then the climb up to Green Gate hits. And that is pinch point number four. It's two miles, it's not as steep as Devil's Thumb, it's not as steep as Michigan Bluff, it's not as steep as volcano, but it's a steady two-mile climb. And the euphoria of crossing the river wears off pretty quickly on that climb. You're like, your feet are wet, maybe it's dark, you're not sure if it's going to get cold or not. You're like, how long is this climb? Maybe your crew, your crew is waiting for you up at Greengate with, you know, with food and a change of shoes or whatever. That climb to Green Gate, it's the last sustained climb of the race. There's another climb, which is pinpoint five pinch point five that I'm going to talk about later. But this is the one where people will get to Greengate and sit down and be like, whoa, that river crossing seems so far away right now. It's only two miles to get here, but I got to get my act together before I head out on this, on this very runnable section from here to the finish. So it's like it's it you go, it's it's a lot like Western states. You have these highs and you have this low, and it's almost it's almost guaranteed that you have the high of the river crossing. Here I am, I'm at the river, it's so great. There's all these volunteers here to this low of now. I'm grinding up this stupid climb and it sucks. So you get to Green Gate, and then honest to goodness, it's mile 80. You have 11 miles of some of the sweetest, smoothest, mostly downhill. There's a couple little uphills, but not very much. If you were running that 11 miles on fresh legs, like a lot of Auburn runners do, you'd be like, this is great. I love training out here. I could just bop along on this all day from from um from Greengate. You go to the ALT Auburn Lakes Trail aid station. You kind of bop through there. There's a little bit of an uphill out of Auburn Lakes. You leave Auburn Lakes, you cross the bridge where the old aid station used to be at Browns Bar, you turn a right. It's a little bit technical downhill, and then you hit the Cory Road where the mile 90 Cory Road aid station is. And it's, and now you're like, oh my God, I that that 10 miles went so great. I'm at mile 90. Hal Kerner's down here, and Scott Jurick's down here, and all these cheerful people from Rogue Valley Running are down here, and and I'm on this road, and the American River is right there. So you run along the American River for about a mile, 1.2 miles, until you get the left-hand turn, the now infamous left-hand turn that Jim Walmsley missed in the 2016 race and kept going straight and hit the hit the paved road. Now they mark the crap out of it, but it's a left-hand turn. And it's some people confuse the name because you're on Corey Road and you make the turn onto Corey Trail. And it's right about mile 91.2, and you grind up another climb. And people forget about that climb because everyone has said, just like they've said, it's all downhill to the river from Forest Hill. Everyone says, Oh, it's all runnable from Green Gate. And when you get to that turn, that Wandsley turn, and you begin that climb up, it is not very runnable. It's rutted out, it's it's rudded out, it's steep, it's whatever else. You you hear a lot of cars going by on the road on the right because crews are driving back and forth. You finally cross Highway 49, where the aid station used to be. You keep climbing another eight-tenths of a mile until you finally get to the Pointed Rocks aid station, which is mile 94.7. You can see crew again there, and then you kind of have a victory lap into the finish. So, again, to review the pinch points, it's Duncan, Duncan Creek to Robinson Flat, it's Michigan Bluff to Forest Hill, Volcano Canyon, it's Cal 1 to Cal 2, it's the Green Gate climb, and it's the Cory Trail climb up to Pointed Rocks. And if you pay attention to those and you're smart enough to know they're coming, you're probably gonna be okay. But if you ignore them or overlook them or just listen to all the conventional wisdom that people will try to tell you, you might be in for a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Well, that I was gonna ask you about that. And this might be inclusive of that, knowing,

Rookie Mistakes: Quads Heat Pacing

SPEAKER_00 58:55

I mean, you have so much history with this. And knowing, I mean, there's so many new runners that I think running a course a second time, you just learn so much about the course. What are the common, most common rookie mistakes that you see people saying, like after it's all over? Obviously, hopefully celebrating uh, you know, finishing. But even if they're not, what are they like, what are the rookies saying that, like, man, if only I would have known Blank.

SPEAKER_01 59:21

What was it?

SPEAKER_03 59:24

Um, well, I mean, the fur the most obvious one is running oh, the first climb too hard. I mean, everybody is so psyched, they're they're tapered, they're ready to go, and they just bust out of the gate and they run. Gordy Ainsley used to say they get caught up in the exuberance of the morning, you know, and you you just don't want to get caught up in the exuberance of the morning. So, mistake number one. Mistake number two is hammering the downhills through the canyons and trashing your quads. There have there have been so many runners who have come into Michigan Bluff, absolutely like practically walking backwards because their quads are so trashed, because hey, I'm still feeling pretty good and I can run this downhill, and the trail's kind of smooth, and and they just get caught up in it, or maybe they're with a a couple other runners and they're chatting and they just trash their quads, you know, on the on the downhills, especially through uh through Deadwood and El Dorado. Uh, and then and then honestly, just not cooling, not paying attention to cooling. Um someone might be they might say, Oh, well, you know, it's not that hot. The fork, I I I've I'm heat trained, I'm pretty good. And and there are so many that there are so many places on the course where you can dunk yourself in a creek or you can, you know, you can pour, you can put your head under a spring. There's a there's a beautiful spring at the bottom of Devil's Thumb. It's about a hundred yards after you cross Swinging Bridge, it comes right out of the mountain. Water flows out of there year-round. You can drink it. You know, you can fill your bottles, you can dump them over your head, you can fill them up, dump them. Like, I think people make the mistake of, you know, there's so much hype about the heat and they get to halfway through, and it's like, well, it doesn't feel that hot. And then they ignore the heat protocols. Like they don't fill their ice bandana, they don't do that kind of stuff. And the heat will sneak up on you, especially because, and I've said this probably on podcasts you've listened to before, the heat doesn't only come from above, it comes from below too. Like there's a pizza oven effect where the the the canyons have pre-baked over the weeks leading up to the race. We're seeing it happen right now, where you know, when it when a canyon is baking for 15 hours a day because it's the longest day of the year, that heat comes up to you as well as comes down on you. So you've got to pay attention. So don't don't take the opening climb too hard. Don't hammer the downhills through the canyons and pay attention to cooling, even if you don't feel that hot. Those would be the big three of sort of rookie mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

I I could see those. And it it sounds like one thing I've I've wondered

Ice, Packs, And Aid Station Reality

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

too, is there ice? I mean, is it pretty much every aid station is going to have ice ready to go, or is that something the crews need to bring?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

Um No, there's ice. I and Craig, Craig will typically, Craig Thornley, the race director, he'll typically send out in his final email, it might, it'll probably come out. If it hasn't come out already, it'll probably come out in the next couple days where he will he will give the runners um uh uh some stats on the ice order. Um but typically but typically in past years, as he's done the math, there's about 250 pounds of ice per runner. I'll say that again. 250 pounds of ice per runner, right? So so you know, they have an they have an ice making machine up at Robinson Flat, there's ice at at Michigan Bluff, there's I mean, there is so much ice, not to mention the fact that there's ice being replenished. You know, there's people replenishing ice at aid stations uh throughout the day. So, yes, if crews want to, they can bring ice just so that uh runner has their own ice. But yeah, there is so much ice, you uh will not be at a loss. If you need your ice bandana filled up, if you want your bottle bottle filled with ice and water, you can get it at Western States.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

But it seems, I mean, the A stations look so plentiful, they look so healthy. I know it's a big you know, part of the mission of Western States is just creating that just a world-class running experience for every runner. And from what I've heard, read, it sounds like they do everything and then some people are blown away. But it's made me second guess. I'm usually a vest person, which I've been second guessing. Should I plan to just go with a belt and bring some water bottles? Because if they're that close, it seems like you could do that. But that also might be detrimental for somebody that is not an elite, you know, pro-level runner. Like, do you recommend people shift years and just go belt, carry water bottles or vest better?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

I think everybody, I think everybody who is in the sub-24 knows themselves well enough to know that they'd be in the sub-24 running, could could do it without a vest. Um, I mentioned earlier that the the only parts, the longest parts, and you want to think about this, especially if it's a forecast hot day, is is Red Star Ridge to Dunkin' Canyon and Dunkin' Canyon to Robinson Flat. Like those are seven mile sections. It's not yet hot. It's not most years, it's not yet hot, but it can be. I'll never forget it was in the uh Race for the Soul video that was made about the 2001 Western States. And this video picked up Ann Tracen, legendary 14-time finisher. And the camera was there, and it picked her up at Red Star Ridge getting a drop. I was like, Red Ann Tracen has a drop bag at Red Star Ridge, and all she took out of the drop bag was a third bottle. And so she was going to run the whole thing with two bottles, but she took a third bottle to run from Red Star Ridge, so mile 16 to mile 30 to cover those 14 miles where there's only one aid station in between. But I would say to anybody who who has a 24-hour or under aspiration or ability, you could totally do it with two handhelds and either pockets in your shorts or a belt to put, you know, your gels and whatever else in. If you're going over 24, you might want to have a vest or or a belt or at least a bigger belt. And and then you also do need to think about you know, do you want to carry extra batteries for your headlamp? Do you want to carry, you know, a layer for overnight if it gets chilly? I mean, it doesn't, it never really gets chilly, but keep in mind if you've been running all day in the heat and All of a sudden the temperature is 50 degrees, it might feel like 30, you know, and you might be moving slower also. So those are the kinds of things that might might make a difference as well. But you also, you know, someone in your case, you might be able to run the entire all the way to Forest Hill with just handhelds and a belt, and then make a game day decision at Forest Hill, depending on how well you're moving. Your crew could have a have a vest ready for you, right? That might have a layer on it or a headlamp and stuff. But you might be moving well enough, it's like, oh, I can do this again. And then you might just say, well, bring the vest to the river crossing because I might need it at the river crossing as well. So that's kind of what I say. Um, I mean, I think people are the some people are so used to using their vests these days that that that's what they're gonna do. And and there's no problem with that. I mean, these vests are really lightweight and they breathe and they but but yeah, you can get away with you could, I mean, I I I mean, if I ran Western States again, and I'm not, but if I ran Western States again and I'm I mean, I'm 58 years old, I would, I would probably be like a 27-hour finisher. You know, I'd probably, I'd probably do it with two handhelds, you know, and I but but that's also because I know, for example, the spring I mentioned at the bottom of Devil's Thumb, I can fill my bottles there, and that's a that's a whole nother 40 ounces for two miles. So I I mean, I would say, you know, there are definitely some places where you can fill your bottles that aren't at aid stations that I'm not and I'm not saying you're cheating, you're basically filling your bottles like nature's filling your bottles, um, that you can definitely do that. So something to think about. It's a good thing you have a year to get ready.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

No, and this is coming from my I actually peeked out and asked some other people that were running it, just curious to know some of these things as well. Um, the water bottles was a big one, and you you hit the nail on the head, and if Ant Trayson needs a third bottle at Red Star, then I'm gonna need a third bottle at Red Star because that's yeah, she's yeah, incredible. Um, I've not seen that video. I'm gonna go check it out. I thought I've seen a lot of the Western States videos.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:06

Race Race for the Soul, it was uh it was on PBS, it was a PBS produced

What Sub-20 Fitness Really Takes

SPEAKER_03 1:08:10

video. It's great, it was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

Oh, and so what you mentioned a 20-hour finisher or 24-hour finisher, what what is the differentiator between it? Because I've been trying to mentally prep of like, I'd like to go sub-20. I don't know if that's I have nothing to bear them, like what bearing, what's the separator? What's the difference between that sub-20, the 24-hour, and the 30-hour finisher?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:34

All right, sub sub-20. I mean, if you wanted to, if you wanted to look at say your times at a shorter distance race, you know, for sub-20, you'd probably need to be able to do uh 100K in about 12 or 13 hours. Um maybe a hilly, you mentioned um you mentioned Clarkey's race up in um Fort Collins. That's a little bit more of a like never, he he he does never summer up there too. Um that would be you know, maybe a 14-hour never summer would translate to a you know to a 24 or not no to a 24. Black canyon, let's say black canyon, you'd need to run like the Black Canyon 100K in 11-ish, I would say, certainly sub-12 to because that's a net downhill course as well, to to kind of be thinking of of sub-20. Or conversely, you know, you maybe go to Canyons 100K or or do just do training runs on the course to to see how you could, you know, to see, for example, if you could run um you know, devil's thumb to Michigan Bluff in an hour and 40 minutes or hour and 45 minutes, see if you could run Cal Street in um 245 or 250. You know, you you you would need to be able to see if you could run Robinson flat to last chance, which is you know basically a half marathon, you know, in about two hours and 15 minutes. I mean, there's a lot of, and I'm just spitballing these off the top of my head, but I, you know, those, you know, sub-20s, sub-20 is not easy. And and you'd have to, and you'd have to, you know, be really efficient at aid stations. You'd have to really be, you know, on top of it. Sub-24, you know, sub-24, I think, uh got a different set of aerials, maybe 14 at Black Canyon, you know, 16 at Never Summer, things like that. I do think 100Ks are a way better indicator of what kind of fitness you have going into Western states than 50 milers are. Um, and also stacking up, um, stacking up days. So what I'll do is I'm if I'm coaching someone and they're going to the, and they're going to the Western States training camp, I'll basically say, okay, well, your goal is sub-20. So here are the splits I think you're going to need to run during the weekend. And I'll just give them those splits, you know, and and they'll be able to see if they can do them or not. And then we'll, and then we'll adjust, you know, accordingly. So I mean, there's no there's no mystery about Western states. I mean, everyone knows the course. It's it's the same every year, you know. It's that the the big variable, of course, is the heat. Um, but you if everybody trains for the heat, then, and everybody should train for the heat, then hopefully they're they're ready when it when it smacks them in the face, you know, uh going up uh devil's thumb.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

Well, and that's what Neil Neil mentioned, steep and hot. And he said that very specifically, steep and hot. Um, so what is the best way that you found for heat training? Um, I

Sauna Protocols For Heat Acclimation

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

know there's traditional things like sauna, just getting out running in the heat. Like, what do you typically recommend?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:52

Well, there's more and more research on it, but I would say passive for heat acclimation, passive heat acclimation in a sauna, the data is clear, that's the best. Um, if you don't have access to a sauna, passive heat acclimation in hot water immersion. Running in the heat is fine if you live in a really, really hot area. Like I lived in Phoenix for a long time, and that was fine to just you know wait till two in the afternoon and run in 108 degrees. You know, that's gonna, that's gonna help you. What I think the science has proven doesn't work is like loading up on three layers of puffy coats and going out and running for two hours. It it it impacts your running efficiency, your form, your, you know, it exhausts you. You know, the the sauna protocol that we use at CTS where I work is a 30-day protocol. Typically you'll go into the sauna, you want it to be 140 to 160 degrees. Maybe after your run, you do an hour, you know, easy run and go into the sauna. Kind of nine, nine days, you you count out 30 days from race day, you do nine days in a row, you know, of 30 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes in the sauna. Then you do a maintenance phase where maybe every every other day or every third day you go in there, and then counting 12 out, 12 days out from the race, you're in every single day for 30 minutes. And then, you know, on the Wednesday, if it's a Saturday start like Western States, your last sauna session is on the Wednesday night or the Thursday morning before the race, and then you're and then you're good to go. A couple of important things to know about that, you you lose heat acclimation quickly. So that's why you want to do it right up until a couple of days before the race. Uh, and you want to really, really track your sweat rate. You want to track how long it takes for you to break a sweat in a sauna. Um, and you want to just make sure that you're not compromising other parts of your life, particularly the last minute, the last little bits of training that you're doing by that heat protocol. But I mean, that's what I adhere to. It's usually enough, you know, at a very high level, or if you lived in some place like Leadville or where it's never hot, you know, you may want to do like a previous, like a like a 30-day version of what I just explained in like April, where you do nine consecutive days, you do some maintenance, and then you do nine more days. Maybe you're maybe you're tuning up for you know a race, you're gonna go to Canyons 100K or Mi Walk 100K or something like that. Um, that would be the the best way to go, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

And is it, I mean, if you own a sauna, just is it doing it daily? Is that good? Or is it truly just those nine-day windows?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:43

Oh no, if you I mean, oh yeah, if you own a sauna, yeah, that's the best way to just go in there every day. I mean, there is there is a there is a difference between the full-blown like traditional sauna and an infrared sauna. A lot of people have infrared saunas at their houses and stuff. And I mean, you gotta make sure it's hot enough. Um and that kind of number is 140, 150. I know Coop and Coop's done a lot of research on that with people like um taking those pills that measure their their internal core temperature or or even like taking a rectal temperature to just determine if they're getting up to that sort of 10 101, 102 range in their body temperature that you kind of need when you're going into a race like Western States. But yeah, I mean if you have it at home, yeah, I mean, use it, use it to your heart's content. It's gonna help you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

Um I didn't know if it was detrimental to do. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:42

I mean, unless it's unless it unless it impacts your training, right? I mean, like finish Finnish cross-country skiers are in the sauna 365 days a year, and and they seem to do okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:53

So it's they're doing all right. Um, I was uh just so excited. I think I could just pick your brain about Western states in general, just for a while, because I've been really just fascinated with this race. And I feel like the more I learn, the more I find these little, these little nuggets of things. It's like, I had no idea that was a thing. And that's incredible. Like you mentioned the the you know, the flag on, I believe you said Thursday morning, hearing a little tribute. Like that's that's amazing that it's not published. It's not, you know, unless you you know somebody that knows it. I don't know that well, it might be published, I just didn't see it. I'll say that to you. But what are some of your you know, you're we're getting ready for states, it's again next week. What are the things you'd look forward to the most? I mean, some of the things that like every

Michigan Bluff Legends And Finish Line Joy

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

year, this is what I enjoy the most about this race or run.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:53

So there's um I have it, there's absolutely one thing at the top of the list, and that is uh going to Michigan Bluff. Um at Michigan Bluff, there there's a there's a house on the corner of the course where the where the aid the aid station is set up in the lawn of this house. Carol Hewitt owns the house. Carol is a multi multi-time western states finisher from back in the 80s. I hope she doesn't get mad at me for saying this. But she brings together, I think, the the largest collection of Western states legends that are out there. And every year they just they just converge on Michigan Bluff on race day. And and if you if you weren't running the race and you were interested in learning about it, that would be the place to go. When we when when I was there last year, we kind of I kind of walked around talking to all the people and we we concluded that there were 125 give or take, 125 Western states silver buckles represented on that lawn on race day. These are runners who ran the race years ago, you know, they're now in their 70s and 80s, who come back every year to no fanfare at all. They just come back, they go to Carol's house, they hang out on race day, they get the they get the paper program, and and we sit there and say, man, can you believe how fast that guy came through or this, that, or the other game. And they're called, they have a name. They're called the Michigan Bluff Social Club. And it's brilliant. It's brilliant. And that's what I look forward to most every year, is that when I when I pack up from parking cars, and I I I I'm just a helper at at Duncan Canyon. Carrie Williams is the is the captain of that aid of that parking car aid station. He does an amazing job. I I'm just a support person, you know, with a with a fluorescent vest on. When I when I pack up my car and drive down to Michigan Bluff, I can't wait to get down there. Like I don't, I don't care at all how the I don't care who's winning. I don't care. I just want to get to Michigan Bluff and have my six hours, you know, with the with the Michigan Bluff Social Club. To give you an idea how awesome this group is, a couple of years ago, they I arrived and they um they said very seriously, you know, uh AJW, um I'm I'm not sure you you should be here. And I was like, well, you know, and they were they put on, well, you know, you're not you're not in the club. And I was like, well, well, yeah, but you guys, and they're like, you know what, we've we've planned an initiation for you. And they literally like that, and they did this whole thing, they brought me in the and it was so, and of course, they there's no such thing, but they wanted to give me grief and everything else. But like, that's that's the nature of this group. So, so that's number one. And number two, that a hundred percent is being at the track on that Sunday morning as the finishers are going in and going up and down the road and seeing the finishers come in with their crews and their paces and people who've been up for two days. And you know, John Mettinger years ago uh used to say on the microphone uh about Placer High School, he used to say, with apologies to Disney, this is indeed the happiest place on earth. And there's it's so, so true. Like, if you you cannot, no matter what you're dealing with, no matter what's wrong with the world, no matter what is pissing you off in any given moment, if you want to like feel the triumph of the human spirit and the importance and value of of people coming together to celebrate like a common thing, I can't think of a better place to go than the Placer High School track on the fourth Sunday in June. I really can't. And so, I mean, we're a week out, we're we're it's a week out from the race. And like, I can't wait to get in my car and drive down there. You know, my my my wife and kids, I mean my kids are all grown, but my wife and kids know like it's it's like code in our family that it's like it's like Western State. No one even asks, you know, where's dad? You know, it's just like, well, we know where dad is, you know. Like if you needed to find me, if if if the if the IRS needed to find me, like really, they were hunting me down because I had back taxes or something, they could go to the Placer High School track and I'd be there. You know what I mean? So yeah, Michigan Bluff Social Club and the high school and the Placer High School track, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:18

Okay. And for the social club, just because I believe I'm uh running cameras at Michigan Bluff for a small like four-hour window. I was like, do you have to have a silver buckle to get in?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:28

Or does one just kind of Oh wait, you so you've got your assignment already? You're gonna be a camera guy at the bluff?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:36

Yeah, I believe so. I w I have to go pull it up. And I told him, I was like, look, I'm gonna do whatever you want. I think they asked for what do you want to do? And I just said, I'm just I'm here to support. I have no idea what I'm getting myself into.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:49

So Michigan, Michigan Bluff is a great assignment. So I mean, there are a couple of there are a couple of things I'll have to, I mean, I will I'll have to um I'll have to teach you the password, uh, and and then there's a sec, and then there's a secret handshake, and then a couple other things. But other than that, I'm sure you'll be welcome. I all kidding aside, no, all kidding aside, the the I mean, like I said, there's not only like following the front of the race as they go through there, but there's a there's a major, and you'll I'm so glad you're going actually, there's a major medical area there as well. So, I mean, Carol's yard is large enough that and it is, and the reason I say major is it's where it's the part of the race where the largest number of people are having issues with their feet. And so um Tanya Olsen, who is a foot expert, she always sets up there. She has a team of podiatrist, both podiatrists and podiatrists, like um people who are getting their degree in podiatry, and they all come and and she holds court because you know, people will come in there and you'll see the biggest blisters you've ever seen, you know. And and I'll be sitting there making a video of it and you know, stuff like that. But but no, it's uh it is a really, it is a really cool place to be on race day. So I'm glad you're going there. And and and and and and it's good to have the cameras there too, because it's um it's like I like to say Forest Hill is the biggest, it's like the big SEC frat party, and and Michigan Bluff is like where all the cool kids go. It's like the it's like the party, it's like the party in your buddy's basement that you uh like you have to get a special invite to.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:41

Oh that makes perfect sense. All these people, because you see it when you watch the live stream, just the streets are flooded at Forest Hill. Yeah. And meanwhile, everybody, all the the people that know are over at Michigan Bluff. That's exactly, exactly. Smart enough to know not to be there. Um, well, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Um, and just everything Western states in general, everything you do. I I love and you basically just very, I think humbly, like, oh, I'm just a volunteer, I'm just wearing a vest. And to me, that's what I imagine in a lot of the the spirit and fire behind Western states is somebody like you, with I mean, just so many big finishes, such a history there, that you're just out there, how can I help? You're you know, just volunteering, helping park cars. I think it's to me, it seems like that's probably what makes it a really special thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:38

Yeah, and I I I want to get in one more thing. Um, you know, I don't and and sometimes people are surprised about this, but I think it's important to say I don't have any official role with the race. Um I'm I'm I'm I'm not I'm not a member of the board, I'm not a I'm not a I'm not a paid person. I I volunteer at the race. I don't I don't get a press pass. I don't have access to places that other people don't. I think some people think, well, that's AJW, he can do whatever he wants. And I think it's important to know that that no, no, that's not true. You know, when I go to when I go to okay, I I guess I when I go to Michigan Bluff, I do get to drive my car down to Carol's house, but that's because Carol gives me an invitation and and I'm usually bringing stuff to her. But but that's not, you know what I'm saying? Like I think it's important. Western states really does value their own as a as an event, their own independence from other events, but they also value the fact that from their very beginning, there it's been about an egalitarian race. And and from the first finisher to the last finisher, everyone is treated equally. And I think that's the same for for volunteers and for media. Sure, if you're a media member, so for example, you, you'll be given a pass where you'll be able to with a you're gonna have a camera and you're gonna be part of the live stream team and you're gonna be able to go places within Michigan Bluff that that crews can't go, right? Or that because that's that's but you're covering the race, right? You're you're there in a journalistic way, covering the race. But if you're just a if you're just a regular person at Western States, everybody is the same. You if you're Jim Walmsley's crew, you don't get to go anywhere, or Killian's crew, you don't get to go anywhere special. You know, you're you go you go where everyone else goes. And that to me, in in a way, exemplifies the ethos of the race. And and and and that's the reason I brought up the the the part about me, because I I feel like I go the to the race because what it gives me. The race, Western states give. Me sustenance and gives me excitement and gives me joy. I don't give Western states anything. I mean, maybe, maybe I do, but I'm not there to make them better. They're there to make me better. And in this, in this day and age, in this world that we live in, I am so grateful that there is an institution that does that and that I'm a part of it. You know, and as and as long as they'll have me along to park cars or help with Tonya at Michigan Bluff or to help people cross the road at Highway 49, or to announce a dozen or so names at the finish, or to run people in from Roby Point. As long as they'll have me, I'll be there. You know, and I'll pay my own way and I'll do whatever because that is at the core of what makes this sport so great.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

I think to me, I know you say you don't give anything to it, but I say you give ever you give so much to everybody that gets to witness it and be a part of it. Because again, I I think from the outside looking in, that's what makes it special. I think it would be easy to to throw a you know say a cloak over it and kind of well, nobody else gets to be a part of this. This is our fun thing, or to have the growth that it's had. I mean, I the fact that there's not a ton of really upset people over the extreme growth that Western states has. You know, the fact that you could run it 10 years in a row and all of a sudden now you have to wait 10 years to run it once.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:40

Well, of course, you're top 10 finisher, so you'd be running it anyway. But just point being that it's just grown a ton and it's managed to hold on to that. It seems like they've held on to it. And I believe it sounds like for people like

Nonprofit Ethos And Tradition Versus Innovation

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

you.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:52

They 100% have. And that's what I said at the outset. They have figured out a way to manage the explosive growth and maintain what what makes them what's at their core. And uh, and and I and I'm sure it's not easy. I remember interviewing Diana Fitzpatrick, was the previous uh board president, and I and I interviewed her for my podcast um when they rewrote the mission of the race. They they hadn't rewritten the mission statement for about 20 years, and they they hired a consultant. It was great. They did the whole process. I'm sure you're familiar with this kind of thing, given your line of work. They they hired a consultant, you know, they did the did the whole thing about you know rewriting a mission statement. And, you know, at the core, aside from creating a uh producing an uh an experience, an elite level experience for every single runner, it was to successfully, to successfully seek to balance tradition with innovation. And I was in a I was interviewing Diana Fitzpatrick about this, and she said, you know what? Everyone involved in the race, from Craig Thornley, the race director, all the way down, works on that every single day, whether they're interviewing a new sponsor or trying to figure out what they're gonna do about a course change or anything. It's how do we balance all this new growth and explosion and innovation and money and all the stuff that comes with it with what makes us who we are. And man, man, what an admirable goal and not an easy one to achieve. It would be so easy to sell out to the money and be like, oh yeah, we'll do whatever you want. Or it would be so easy to dig your heels and be like, screw you guys, we we know who we are and we're just gonna do our thing. But they're they're working hard to do both. And when she said, you know what, Andy, everybody associated with this organization, from from me, the board president, to Craig, to everyone all the way down, we balance that all the time. And I thought, man, you go, girl.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:04

So this you mentioned not selling out, which it was something else that I think not a lot of people know. But and correct me here, where I may be off base, but Western states, endurance run is a nonprofit. And what does that mean as far as the race goes? Because if I mean, if they're a nonprofit, like could they they can't sell out?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:26

Right. There are they're I mean, they're a they're a is it a 501, they're a 501c3 nonprofit organization, right? You can you can look up their 990s on on GuideStar and see what Craig Thornley's salary is and all that stuff. Like a class. I mean, I I come from a a previous career in education as a nonprofit head of school. So I understand like the whole thing. And yeah, I mean, well, what I mean by sell out is not literally sell out. I mean sort of figuratively sell out, right? To to sort of take take the money and run, so to speak. And in and instead, right, what they do. So, yes, of course, you have sponsors, big money sponsors now, like Goo and Hoka, Hoka, the presenting sponsor. And let's face it, Western States has had has had presenting sponsors for a long time, going all the way back to North Face and then Ultra and then Montrail and now Hoka. There's a lot of money to be a presenting sponsor of Western States, and there's a lot of exposure that comes with that, and et cetera, et cetera. But at the end of the day, they are a nonprofit 501c3 governed by a self-perpetuating all-volunteer board, whereby all of the proceeds, whether they're the proceeds of the entry fees or the proceeds of the like the raffle tickets that you guys bought, go back into the race, just like nonprofits who now maybe they go to pay salaries, right? There are some, as I mentioned, there are some paid employees. I don't know, I don't know any of the details of this, by the way, so I don't pretend to know. But they also, I mean, they have a warehouse in in Auburn. One would assume they have to pay rent on that warehouse. They have to um, you know, rent a large number of rooms for people up at Olympic Valley for to come and stay, their board members and everything. Like there's a there are a lot of expenses related to the race. My goodness, they have to produce sterling silver belt buckles for every 24-hour finisher and bronze belt buckles. People might be laughing, listening to me, but you know, though that I have 10 of them, so I know these sterling silver belt buckles are not your little like made around the corner store belt buckles. They're made by a company, a silversmith over in Carson City, and they make them custom for every finisher of Western States. This stuff doesn't come cheap. So 100%, they are a nonprofit and they are proudly a nonprofit. Yes. Do they have associations with profit companies? Absolutely. But again, they are an independent, like there's lots of nonprofits who who have who have relationships with for-profit companies, but that doesn't necessarily uh impact their own status. And I think that's the that's one of the greatest things about Western states, frankly.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:23

And well that what I meant too is not the like and I understood this the selling out piece, but when you think about there's a lot of races that are currently, there's a lot of financial um investment into the sport of ultra running right now, where people are buying up races, and it's just it's interesting that Western States has this ethos. And you mentioned the pay for um different members and like the race director or assistant, because I've talked to Carrie a couple times and with just getting set up with a lottery and went to do my qualifier this year because I had to redo one. Just hearing her schedule and talking, like the amount of hours that she puts, I don't know what she makes, but I can tell you it's not enough. You know, like I seriously doubt that it's for the amount of time and and so few people that organize this, I don't think it's enough. So I get that like they need to get, they deserve to get paid. It's a full-time, it's more than a full-time job. Um, but it's it's it's amazing that they've held on to it. But thank you so much for all of your time. And you know, I'd I'd love for you, if you don't mind,

The Origin Story And Final Sendoff

SPEAKER_00 1:36:27

as we send off here, I'd love to just pass it over to you. And just as you think about people that don't know much about Western states or maybe are got a ticket to run or they're ambitious enough, they want to do this for the first time. What sort of closing message would you send them off with?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:43

You know, Western States is, and thank you, by the way, thank you, Thad, for having me on. Thank you for indulging me with all this time. I uh as I as I think any listener can tell, I love I love this race, I love talking about it. Um I think the amazing part about it, and the and the part that I think would appeal to anybody, whether they're a runner or a non-runner, or someone who's just curious about you know what all the big deal is, is this event which started in with an incredible story of a of a man who was a horseman and his horse went lame and he decided to run it, you know, to a group of four people who had this idea to make the horseback ride into a run, and had the brilliant vision to connect, you know, the high country above Lake Tahoe to the gold country uh down by Auburn, the foothills of the Sierra, and and and traverse the canyons where so many people, you know, made a fortune and and lost a fortune and and did everything in between. Like the wisdom and brilliance of that elegant beginning has created something that captures the attention of thousands of people each June and and does so in a way that is so classic. It's so I I talked at the outset about Churchill Downs and Augusta National. I would argue that the Western States 100 course is right up there with them on the Mount Rushmore of sports venues that are incredible and that can change your life just from being a part of them. You know, people ask, people ask, why is the number of starters so limited at Western states? And the answer is well, the race goes through the Granite Chief Wilderness between mile four and mile 10. And as a result of that, it's a wilderness area. The race has been grandfathered in to have 369 starters every year because they they wouldn't, you're not allowed to have a public event in a wilderness area. And you're you're lucky to have this. And and people will say, well, why not just reroute the course around the wilderness area? And the board says, well, you know what? Then it wouldn't be western states. It would not be western states. And you know what, Western states is western states because of where it started, where it is, and where and what it will become. And to me, there's nothing more both inspirational and aspirational than that. Long after we are gone from this world, Western states will continue, and people will spend years and years and years trying to get in, and they'll finally get a chance to put their feet on that sacred ground, and they'll, and at that point, they'll get it. And that's the core of Western states, and that's what it means to me. And that's frankly what it means to all those folks at Michigan in the Michigan

See You At States

SPEAKER_03 1:40:33

Bluff Social Club, and all those folks hanging around Placer High School track who have no desire to run the race, and all those folks right now that are sitting at home with one week to go, nervous and and packing their drop bags again and again again, you know. Oh, yeah, dump it in.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:53

Wait, AJW said four shoes. Okay, we're gonna dump these bags. Well, thank you so very much. I I appreciate your passion, your willingness to share it. And um, for anybody listening, uh truly I cannot recommend it enough. Just getting prepped for this, checking out um Crack A Boot Brew with AJW is a fantastic podcast. I thoroughly have enjoyed listening to your interviews. I love your interview style, your prep questions. So anybody listening, go check it out. It is is well worth a listen. And AJWAP, I'm I'm excited. I can't wait for next week and excited to close out with. Uh I'll see you at States.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:34

See you at States, man. And and hey, hey, come find me, come, come find me at Michigan Bluff.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:40

I definitely will with this the secret handshake and everything.