On Your Lead
On Your Lead is a podcast about the miles that make you better at life, leadership, and everything in between.
Hosted by Thad David — Marine Recon Scout Sniper veteran, speaker, and endurance athlete — the show explores what it really takes to lead when things get hard. Through conversations with elite athletes, military leaders, entrepreneurs, and high performers, On Your Lead digs into discipline, decision-making, ownership, and the long work of becoming someone better.
This isn’t about quick wins. It’s about earned confidence, taking the long road, and learning from people who’ve carried the weight before you.
And learning from people who’ve carried the weight before you.
Whether you’re leading a team, building a business, training for a big goal, or navigating a hard season — these are the miles that shape who you become.
On Your Lead
The Process Is the Prize | w/ Kilian Korth
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Elite ultrarunner Kilian Korth is known for winning the Triple Crown Series, finishing as the first male at Cocodona 250, and pushing the limits of what humans can endure over 200-mile races. But this conversation isn't really about ultrarunning.
It's about how to think.
We explore why achievement never satisfies the way we expect it to, the discipline of falling in love with the process instead of the outcome, and how intentional routines shape the way we perform under pressure. Kilian shares his approach to recovery after injury, why he protects his mornings from distraction, what philosophy has taught him about resilience, and why community may matter more than competition.
Along the way, we discuss Stoicism, meditation, books that have changed his life, training the mind for discomfort, and what the world's best endurance athletes can teach all of us about living with purpose.
Whether you're chasing a finish line, building a business, leading a team, or simply trying to become a little better each day, this conversation offers practical wisdom that reaches far beyond the trails.
Contact Thad - VictoriousVeteranProject@Gmail.com
Thanks for listening!
Achievement Vs Loving The Process
SPEAKER_02Achievement is this tiny ephemeral moment that you can appreciate it for what it is for a short time, but then it's gone. It's like gone forever. Like you can sort of go back and and be like, oh yeah, remember when I crossed the finish line at Cocodona, how good that felt? But you're getting this like two percent sliver of that feeling, and achievement is just it's it's it's gone forever. So it's like you have to love the process. And if you don't love the process, achievement's actually not gonna really get you anything that lasts and is is eternal in life at all.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to On Your Lead, the show about the miles that make you better at life, leadership, and everything in between. I'm Thad David, a Marine Recon Scout Sniper veteran, speaker, and endurance athlete. Let's get into it. Welcome to another episode. We're here today with Killian Korth, the King of 200s. How are you doing, Killian?
SPEAKER_02I'm doing pretty well. Thanks for having me on. It's great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00And well, thank you so much for jumping on. I know you are just extremely busy. You got so many things going on.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I'm I'm excited just to have a less busy nowadays.
SPEAKER_00Well nowadays with uh recent injury and surgery.
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep. Less busy. I'm filling my days with uh with you know arbitrary objectives as opposed to like actual
Injury Pivot And 75 Hard Structure
SPEAKER_02career objectives.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, I mean, I actually wanted to jump into that too, because I think I got a ton of respect for that pivot shift. I think a lot of people see an injury and they just stop. I'm thinking about now an amateur like myself that I like to do ultras, but when I say I do ultras and you do ultras, that's two different people doing ultras uh and running. But for you, I mean you picked up right away and you seemed like you picked up the 75 strong. Did I say that right? 75 hard, yeah. 75 hard. Yeah. So what I mean, what made you do that? What was the mental thinking with that? Did you have a game plan or just looking for something?
SPEAKER_02So it was like semi-impulsive in the sense of, you know, I'm just like looking for something to fill my days where running would normally be taking up like 24 hours of my week. So I've got this like massive chunk of time that I just want to be doing things that aren't, you know, useless distractions. I mean, I I I think there's probably a time and place for thoughtless distraction, but it's not the thing that's gonna like make you feel as if you're being productive. And so I'm a writer, and so I feel I've I've had a lot of time to write, which has been kind of a blessing. But then, you know, I I want to stay fit. I would like to continue to get my fix of endorphins every single day. Like I genuinely characterize my relationship to exercise as a reasonably healthy addiction, but like, you know, my brain functions better if I've had a morning workout and that sort of thing. So it was it just felt natural to just sort of, okay, what can I do that's realistic, that's not gonna interrupt the process of my ankle healing, but allows me to kind of pursue other things. And so 75 Hard was a way to do that. And for anyone who doesn't know, 75 Hard was uh a like 75-day project invented by uh Andy Priscilla, uh who uh and it entails basically two 45-minute workouts, one of which has to be outside, uh, 10 pages of reading of a nonfiction book, uh drinking a gallon of water, have taking a progress picture every day, and I might be missing one more thing. Oh yeah, no alcohol. That's not a problem for me, neither is the reading. A lot of it is just like stuff I do anyway, but it's just kind of nice to you know have this list of options for my day that I I can pick from that I know are all gonna be productive. And I added some things in for myself too, like 30 minutes of meditation and at least an hour of writing. I'm gonna start taking Sundays to not touch my phone, so try to be more present even though I'm not able to do the thing that I most want to be doing, which is running. And uh so it really is really just a way to like help guide myself toward being productive and like having ways to feel good about myself, as opposed to kind of sitting and you know, lapsing into the negative thought process that would tend to accompany an injury. I had about three days of feeling miserable before I kind of told myself I was like, okay, you're done with this. Like, this is this is where you're at, you just have to accept it. And then it was like, what's next?
SPEAKER_00So I and my mind goes into two different directions with that. And I know you're I've listened to several of your podcasts. Uh, I know you did the one with Cam Haynes, which I really dove into your background and kind of I thought it was a fantastic, it looked like I really like you guys had a fun time, but it was a great energy that dived into a lot of um your history and reading. I wondered one thing was just have you read or heard of the book with winning in mind? I haven't. It's a fantastic book, and it's about a precision shooter, which um my old I was a um Marine Corps scout sniper and a recon team like way back in the day. And my old marksmanship instructor, I was kind of catching up with him and he recommended it to me, and I went, P he's like, this is my favorite book. And so I picked it up, and this guy was an Olympic shooter, and he said his he actually his whole goal was winning a gold medal in the Olympics. And he said his most depressing time ever was the day after he won the gold medal. Yeah, and it was his wife, he just yeah, didn't have any goals and have anything going. So the moment I saw you pick this up, I was like, oh man, he's you know, you clearly have that mindset. Like we're moving, we have to have something, we have a plan. Um, but yeah, that's really amazing. What do you think people could take away from that? Because I think far too far too many people don't have game plans during their day. Like we don't wake up, we don't have game plans. I mean, how do you think that correlates even without injury?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think, well, there's there's a lot there to unpack. First of all, I just uh typed into Google with winning in mind, so that'll be uh a book that I I order here pretty soon. Just a kind of interesting little connection there is uh there's like probably some
Building A Daily Menu Of Fulfillment
SPEAKER_02genetic propensity in in my history to be interested in that sort of thing because my um biological grandfather who I never met, he he died in Vietnam, but he was uh a marksman and was a couple months away from competing in the Olympics when he died. So there's you know an interest I'd have in that just from a you know family interest perspective. But anyway, um it that totally makes sense that he would say to me that he would say the day after winning a gold medal is like the hardest time because achievement isn't what we think it is. It's not actually something that's going to make us satisfied with what we've done in life, where we are at in life. Achievement is this tiny ephemeral moment that you can appreciate it for what it is for a short time, but then it's gone. It's like gone forever. Like you can sort of go back and be like, oh yeah, remember when I crossed the finish line at Kokodona, how good that felt? But you're getting this like 2% sliver of that feeling, and achievement is just it's it's it's gone forever. So it's like you have to love the process, and if you don't love the process, achievement's actually not gonna really get you anything that lasts and is is eternal in life at all. So um that's just a lesson that I think doesn't intuitively arrive until you feel it for yourself. But uh in terms of arranging your day, I think the way that I would analogize is like if you've got uh if you if you if you're following a diet and you go to a restaurant, like the mindset I've always had when I've I've been on a strict diet is like, okay, I I don't even have options for my my literal menu. You know, if you're gluten-free, pizza and pasta aren't on your menu. And so if you think about the way you arrange your diet or a diet, then you can think about the way you're arranging your day from an option of life choices. So that's like why 75 hard providing a structure is so good, is because you just have this list of choices that you all know. Like I'm gonna push this button and I'm gonna be productive in this day. I'm gonna push this button and I'm gonna be productive in another way. And uh if you can arrange your day to have only a menu of fulfillment, like your day doesn't to me, I think of like video games as the classic example of kind of meaningless distraction. There's probably gray areas where if you're like playing with friends, you know, you're spending time with community, it could be different. But there's no time that I've like felt worse about myself than the few times in my life I've just like sat in front of a TV and played video games for multiple hours. So that's just me though. But uh if you if you arrange your daily menu so that you don't have the options to do the things that you know are gonna make you feel like you wasted time, like like doom scrolling on Instagram or any of that sort of time-wasting activity, then you can just pick from the list of things that you might describe as productive, healthy, fulfilling, like however you want to think of it. And so that's typically how I try to picture arranging my days, whether I'm healthy or not.
SPEAKER_00And so this just made a natural shift into this is now my menu for this current season that I'm in right now?
SPEAKER_02For sure. I mean, for a while, all that was on my menu was for the for the three days of being miserable, all that was on my menu was sitting and thinking about all the things that I'm not gonna be able to do this summer. And so if you're if when you get in when you get stuck in that, it can be pretty hard to get out of it. So it's like that's it's a tough place to be, but ultimately what I think in moments of where you're down or moments where you're up, the character of your thoughts and what you like the story you're telling yourself about your day is actually what affects your mood and whether or not you're going to be thinking positively or negatively about like the experience you're having. And so if the character of your thoughts is just like purely negative, it's like what can you do to change that? And a lot, most of the time, it is just accepting the circumstance and understanding that you have this like tiny sliver of control. And so focus on that. It's like that's the lesson, that's a big lesson with ultras, and it's a big lesson with life. It's like if you have if you can control 2% of the variables, that's all you need to worry about, and the other 98% will take care of itself.
SPEAKER_00That's just beautiful life advice, just in general, focus on the controllables, and the rest is gonna do its thing. I think in with that too, so many people wake up every day and wonder why they're struggling in certain areas. But we check, I mean, I like when people ask me questions like when I'm facilitating a training, one of the things I check in, well, what are your daily habits? Like, what are you doing every day? Let's walk through a typical day, and usually there is no plan. Like we don't have a plan and we end up grabbing the quickest, easiest thing to fill our time. You know, you mentioned video games, tube scrolling.
SPEAKER_02How many of those people wake up and immediately open their phones
Phone Hygiene And A Better Morning
SPEAKER_02and just start having their day dictated to them by algorithmic content? That's I I can't think of anything worse than doing that. Or or like you wake up and you turn on CNN or Fox News, like you turn on cable news, and you're just like given this slowly this not even a slow drip, but just constant drip of outrage. Like it's and and that's what you're gonna get with a lot of algorithms and everything like that. And it's like, so I mean, simple hygiene-wise, just don't look at your phone for the first hour or the last hour of the day. Like if you you can be you could be an a relative addict to the the phone slot machine, as it were, in the middle parts of your day. But if you I think if you have like reasonable hygiene surrounding it, like that's gonna set you up much better than if you're just like letting it take control of you from the very start.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I love the uh slot machine reference. What a great tie-in, because that's what it is, and it's so powerful too. I mean, your mind is just waking up, and to get bombarded first thing is I mean, that's gonna dictate the majority of your day. So I love that just so are are you in the practice of you don't use your phone for the first hour of your day?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, my phone is my alarm, so the only time that I touch it the first hour is to turn off my alarm. And then I typically almost always, is there's like a few exceptions, you know, some there's some alpine starts that happen uh in the summers when I'm fully healthy with that are like 2 a.m. and I'm I wake up at 2 and I'm moving at 2.30. So this doesn't happen on those days. But uh typically I give myself a full hour to read and drink two cups of coffee. So I'm sitting in my recliner right now, and this is where I sit for the first hour of my day. You know, I open my back door, listen to the birds wake up, and it's nice. You know, it's like sets you up for the day, whatever I'm reading uh is often, I mean, I I think of reading as like a solid mixture of entertainment plus like uh self-improvement, you know? And so you're learning, you're engaging with another human's thoughts, whether it's literature or or uh nonfiction, and it's just like a good way to set yourself up for success. And then I go straight from an hour of reading, and right now it's 30 minutes of meditation, but typically I do 10 minutes if I if I have other things to do that day. And so then I'm just like, I've gotten my relaxation time, I'm awake, my the coffee has taken effect, and then I'm like mentally stable to kind of get ready and attack whatever I'm doing that day.
SPEAKER_00That sounds like a just an amazing way to start your day, period. And so when you have those early runs, though, you said those don't happen, you just kind of hit up and get on and go.
SPEAKER_02Oftentimes I will get up extra early to allow myself for the uh to like take the time to still do that. And like, but there's there's certain days where like if I'm doing something huge in the mountains, it's gonna take like 10 hours, and six of those hours is gonna be above tree line, you know, it's like you have to be I'm trying to be below tree line by noon, so uh to avoid thunderstorms, and so you're like you're just constricted by time, and so that's really the only time that uh that morning routine doesn't happen. Um, and I mean I I think it's worth acknowledging up front that like living the life of a professional athlete, like I do I'm like very fortunate with the amount the the way I'm able to arrange my days. I don't yet have kids, so like I I can have this morning routine free from many obligations, which I'm sure that lots of people can't have, but what most people probably can do is not look at their phone. Like, even if you have to wake up and be productive right away, you could wake up and not be productive and distract them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. When I I mean that shows the wisdom that you have because I think I know for me when I didn't have kids, I did not know the level of difficulty that it was, you know, and so the fact that you recognize that speaks volumes to the wisdom that you have, and just acknowledging that there there are things you can do, and that gets back to that 2% of control that you were talking about. Like, what can you control? Um, I find one thing that I've got in the habit of on the weekends is just drop them out and very intentionally. I have phone's my alarm as well, but I let I like to let my wife sleep in. She's been working, I'm usually traveling during the week, so let her sleep in whatever she's been working the hardest all week with our kids when I'm out traveling. But I if I leave my phone on my nightstand and I just go make breakfast with my kids, I find that so much more in tune and present with just you know, and I look back at what did I get distracted with? Is was that worth it, or was it that 20 extra minutes with my kids worth it? So I I love that you're able to point that out and identify it. I'm curious to ask when you sit down and read, it sounds like you're on a chair, you're
Why Physical Books Feel Human
SPEAKER_00reading um actual tangible physical books, or what's your preferred okay?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm I much, much prefer a physical book to the point where we need to buy more bookshelves to fit the books that I I have in my house currently. So yeah, no, I I really love the feeling of holding a book in my hand and just like I I'll especially with philosophy or nonfiction and and certain certain literature, like you, you know, if it's Dostoyevsky or Cormac McCarthy or something and you're trying to like parse what's being said, like writing in the margins, you know, and you can't it's you can't really do that on a Kindle. And then there's also this I buy a lot of used books, and so I I I dog ear my pages, and I I love the feeling of like getting to a place in a used book that I purchased and getting to a spot where someone else dog eared a page that that read that book. And then I feel like I'm connecting not only with the author's experience of writing the book, but like the whoever it was that first owned this book's experience of reading it. It's like, oh, we paused at the same place. Like, did you pause because this is the time in your day where you had to move on? Did you pause because that was a really thoughtful chapter and now you're thinking about things? Like, so there's something like very human and uh tangible, you know, about a physical book that you just don't get with with the digital side of things. Um, I'm not I I'm not even I'm not making really a value claim. It's just it's it's a preference claim for sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, I it speaks volumes for I I love that you mentioned the connection to the author, but also the used book connection to who last read it, which I had never thought about in that way. And that's I I just got a actually the used book that just showed up from you know thrift thrift books, and it had a um this little receipt thing shoved in a page, but it was clearly somebody that had read it before. Um, and now I want to go back and see if I can find the page. Like, was that a placeholder for an important page or a random place to shove something when you're boarding an airplane? Like it I'd never thought about that. That's a very cool connection. And yeah, it's nice.
SPEAKER_02I like I've I used to kind of be into collecting records too, and it was the same thing there where like you you get this used thing that somebody went out and intentionally spent their money on. You know, I have like I accidentally bought one time a copy of uh like a second printing of the Beatles first album, Please Please Me. And it was a second printing from England in like 1964 or something like that. Um, and it was I I bought it for like 30 bucks, it's worth like 350 or something like that. I had no clue what I was buying, but I just like imagine the human experience, like that person's going to buy their first ever Beatles album, and now I'm getting to hold this physical object that probably brought them so much joy in the moment. And like that type of uh connection through time, you know, it's similar to why I love ultrarunning. It's like uh it's this like ancestral human feeling that you don't get from a lot of uh our modern kind of screen-based digital interaction, you know.
SPEAKER_00And and it brings a lot of clarity to it. And and before, I mean going down that thread, it it made me think I want to ask too, because I we had this one guy that we knew in the military that he was a sibling, and one day he just hit us up. He's like, Hey, will you come show me how to clean my guns? And we're like, okay. And went over to his house and he had all these like tons of guns. This older guy just had collected them up, and they all had original packing, not a single one of them been fired. Like they had brand new packing, like we opened them up, and I was like, not a single one of this, this wasn't even used, none of these were. And then totally like completely, yeah, I know we're going back to the books now, but have you ever, I mean, do you ever open up a book? Like, I don't know, this one ever got enjoyed. It says used, but this one was awful in the shelf unused. So it just yeah, made me think of that reference. But so I I want to ask you too, though, like being a big and
Favorite Books And Stoic Lessons
SPEAKER_00avid reader, what's your favorite? I've been if you had top three, top five books, I know that's a tough thing. Um, but what are your favorite books?
SPEAKER_02Uh Blood Meridian is my favorite novel. Uh Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. I think it's the best novel written in the English language, and I'm willing to like die on that hill forever. Um, so that's that's my like number one recommendation. Uh I recently finished a book called Determined by Robert Sapolsky. One of my like little obsessions philosophically is uh that I don't believe in free will, and we don't have to go down this rabbit hole. Like, there's a uh plenty of of me talking about that on on other podcasts. We can go down that rabbit hole if you want to, but it kind of gets long-winded. Um but Determined is a really good book that explores both like the physical processes of how uh like so much about our world is determined by things that we have no clue, like what's going on in the background. You know, like like easy example, um in in sentencing, like in a in a courtroom, if a judge hasn't eaten for a certain number of hours, like they're likely you know, some giant percentage likely, uh more likely to give a severe prison sentence for the same crime to the same person um than if they had eaten an hour before. So it's like there's so much that determines the way that we think we are reasoning. Um, but anyway, that's one of my favorite nonfiction books I've read recently. And then for philosophy, there's just like nothing better than meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Um that's another one of those situations where like Roman Emperor has the power of like a you know divine right emperor, but is this like incredibly down-to-earth person writing in a journal that he never meant to be published? And so you're getting to interface with the private thoughts of someone from you know 2,000 years ago almost, who got to witness uh like plagues and wars across the Roman Empire. Like he's basically where you can like start. Okay, the Roman Empire is declining with Marcus Aurelius, and uh the like equanimity and poise that he somehow manages to show through that is just like beyond what seems like we should be capable of. And so learning from that, I think is is really cool. So those are the those are the three. I've got you got one fiction, one nonfiction, one philosophy.
SPEAKER_00I just pulled up Blood Meridian. I'm going to grab the other two. Do you have to be You had man best book ever written in the English language, which is fantastic. I mean I'm I'm going to have to check it out. And meditations are great. What's your favorite takeaway from meditations?
SPEAKER_02I mean be the rock that the wave crashes upon is kind of the the classic stoic metaphor you know like you just you want to be able to take take blows and enjoy the the ups and downs of life for what they are. So like my big takeaway is if you picture your moods as you know a sine wave basically and you know you have highs and troughs uh you want to compress that sine wave. I do think like a fair criticism of the Stoics in general is that they tend to be a little bit joyless. But I think that if you can compress your sine wave to where you still have highs and lows but it's not this like near manic like wow everything's great everything's terrible everything's great everything's terrible and you can just kind of be more in that middle zone that's that's the big takeaway from meditations is just allowing the natural process to take place without giving too much validity to either the good things or the bad things.
SPEAKER_00So be the rock and it makes me think
Using Stoicism In Ultra Highs
SPEAKER_00and very very curious how do you take that into ultras I mean you're you're you're going into the storm when you go around the 200 mile race I mean to that's you know you're going to the storm so how do you take that mentally into those races?
SPEAKER_02I mean there's a lot the the the controllable aspect that we've already talked about with general life is something that you have to take into ultras too and that was a learning process you know I think in in a race in a 200 mile race maybe you control 30% of the variables let's say you know so focus on that sliver. And then I think it's the with the highs and lows piece there's been 200 mile races where I've never I haven't gone through lows but that's been the but that's like the exception as opposed to the rule. So you want to assume that you're going to have some pretty significantly low moments. You're going to have the thought of why am I doing this? Like typically it's the second night for me. I just get at some point I'm like what in my life like what series of life decisions led me to be running through the woods at 2 a.m and I've slept zero minutes in the last you know 40 hours? Like what am I doing? And uh so you have to know that you're going to get there. And it's just this like learning process of allowing those thoughts to come and go and then believing that you can you can make it out of the low. So like at Kokodona for instance when things started to go wrong for me I entered one of the lowest points I've ever been at in a race especially a race that I didn't end up DNFing and not finishing. But there was just like you have to believe that there's light at the end of the tunnel. And so gliding that low and experiencing that trough as just part of the journey and knowing that it doesn't last forever. Like everything is temporary. And that's another big lesson from the Stoics is that just stuff doesn't last. And so if you can take that lesson into the low moments it allows you to deal with them more gracefully thoughtfully efficiently from a more practical standpoint.
SPEAKER_00Do you find yourself taking those because that would apply to those high moments too then especially during the races but in life do you take that same level of thinking into that those high moments of the race?
SPEAKER_02Yeah I think so I think letting yourself get intoxicated by the high moments isn't the way to go. I think appreciating the high moments and more and more I've just dis I I'm just leaning into gratitude like I have a a draft on my Substack called gratitude is the master virtue and I think that that is where my head's at more and more and so it's like if you can you know if you picture the process of of being in a low whether it's life or an ultra and you are are are tr like just swimming through the depth at that point. And then you get to a high it's like you want to enjoy it. You want to let yourself take the deep breaths you want to let yourself feel the sun rising you know that's often something that will uh usher in a little bit more of a high in in one of these races. You want to let you want to let yourself feel all of that joy but you also want to know that it's temporary. You know it's sort of like I I think death gives life meaning to some degree or another and I think the lows give the highs meaning but knowing that they're temporary allows you to actually appreciate them more. And so it's like you don't want to have you don't want to be chasing peak experiences. Like that's not the way to live your life because then you're just a dog chasing cars and you don't know what to do and you get there. It's like if you're living in the present moment you are more able to feel the gratitude that you should be feeling in the high moments and more able to see the light at the end of the tunnel in the low moments.
SPEAKER_00So I do think like the the equanimity piece uh applies whether or not you are struggling or whether or not you're doing really well and you mentioned I mean the dog chasing cars and approaching that in an ultra and I love that takeaway just the tie back to what you were sharing earlier about being intentional about your mornum too I mean you can chase an easy high of feeling like you're you know cable news great example but you get an instant like you know you get a high from that and you feel like it's there or you could take the the more neutral road so I love to see that practice in your your running as in your day to the life. So one thing because I I listen to a lot of audio books when I'm running
Silence On Trails And Mental Clarity
SPEAKER_00and that's when I find I get a lot of reading in um not necessarily the preferred method but just that's what I do. What do you do when you're running on your training runs or even in races? What do you listen to?
SPEAKER_02Almost always nothing at all. So most of the time I'm running on trails and I want to be able to hear what's around me. I'd if I'm in the mountains I'd prefer to hear the bear uh crashing off in the woods uh than not but in the in in races like if I'm by myself and I'm running in the middle of the night I might listen to some music out loud very infrequently I will I will listen to podcasts. Sometimes if it like where I live it if it rains I I can't really go run on too many trails because it's all going to be muddy and so sometimes I'll do a road run and I'll let myself listen to a podcast. If I if I feel really unmotivated on a day that I need to go out and train I'll I'll I'll allow myself to listen to music on that run to just like give myself a little extra reason to get out the door. But no most of the time first of all I find that my thoughts are often pretty entertaining. So like running is kind of when I figure out like oh what's the next thing I want to write about if oh I'm having this problem in life this is my time to solve it. And then two I just it's like I just love being on the trails. So it's like I want to experience the the sound of my feet on sandstone and feel the winds running through my hair and all of those things. And if like that that is interrupted by the process of listening to anything. And so most of the time I am uh I'm I'm going we're going pretty raw with the uh with headphones but yeah no if and if I do listen to something it's mostly going to be music and oftentimes in a race I'll save it for when I need it and it's like let's use music as a drug in that instance.
SPEAKER_00Very intentionally placed that and that makes a lot of sense actually the moment you said being on a trail whenever I can make it up into the foothills or up in the mountains for that reason I'm I'm not listening to anything. But for whatever reason I don't I don't know why it doesn't apply but I do a lot of roadrunning um just traveling a lot and that's when I end up just checking out with a book and then listening but yeah that makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_02So yeah roadrunning is less engaging. I mean so it's that it makes sense for sure.
SPEAKER_00But uh I when I'm you know
Why 200s Hurt And How You Train
SPEAKER_00at my best I I'm doing very little roadrunning well and uh yeah well given what you do I mean the Coca-Dona just I I'm still blown away by the numbers of of that I know all the 200s have just extreme elevation but it's what it's close to 4000 vertical. I mean that's a you're you're climbing a lot so I would imagine every run you're you're covering quite a bit of vert included yeah for the most part I mean what's ironic about Cogadona is that compared to the races I like best like Kogadona is is flat like the uh the first 30 you get 10,000 feet of climbing but then the rest of it is like far too far too much running for me.
SPEAKER_02So like my my my favorite race is the Bigfoot 200 which is you know 50 miles shorter but has 45,000 feet of climbing. So it's like a lot more up and down in a in a more compressed uh amount of miles. And so like the end of Kokodono for instance when you get to the last 50 miles is just like all douchegrade just like slightly uphill stuff that you have to run but you desperately want to walk and that is my least favorite uh thing to be doing in a race ever. It's it's terrible.
SPEAKER_00The just like having to run up a slight up uphill or is it just specifically because it's at the end of the race?
SPEAKER_02Uh having I mean it's mostly because you're when you're really tired. Like sometimes running up a little bit of an up is is actually sort of fun when you feel fresh. But when you're tired and you just have to force yourself to be running like 10 30s 11 minute miles when really like the only thing that your body wants to do is walk it's that's that's one of the hardest things to do. And uh that's like really what separates people who finish these things quickly from people who don't so that's the one of the separators and so how do you do that? Like what's the secret to to mentally saying it's time to engage you just have to be able to sit on the edge for a really really long time. Like you just get better and better at just like holding your yourself like right at the point where everything's about to break down. And I mean things did break down for me in Cocodona so maybe I was too far uh maybe I was over the edge but it's like you there's there's this mental muscle that you have to flex to keep yourself running and and it's trainable. So I I have been it was something I specifically worked on in my training block for Cocodona was just running things that I didn't want to run which during training runs takes the form of something where that is like steep enough that in a race I would definitely be walking it. But it's just about flexing that muscle where like oh I'm at the end of 120 mile week I'm at the end of my 30 mile long run and I'm I have a two mile climb to do that I'm gonna force myself to run. And then you can translate that in the race to okay I have 40 miles where I'm gonna climb very slowly climb 3000 feet. Like I have to run the whole thing. And that was my plan going into the race and uh it mostly it worked until it didn't but uh yeah it's it's it's hard to describe but it does just feel like you're sort of you like if if you use the the metaphor of hitting the wall it's like you're just like you're you're like on a treadmill with your head against the wall the whole time. You're never quite hitting it with your whole body but you're just like right there. And uh yeah it sucks but you you get used to it you get better at it and it is super rewarding. You know it's like this is this is what you're there for. That's the test and you just have to embrace that moment or moments hours.
SPEAKER_00Well yeah I was gonna say I was gonna say that's a is a long long moment that you're describing um the long moment. But it it's interesting too the you know pulling this thread back from just the difference right here. I'll say amateur runner professional runner you know listening to stuff while I'm checking out while I'm you know what I mean while I'm running and you're intentionally focused on the mental side of how's this going to feel at mile 210 or 220 and and really flexing that mental muscle because it's more than just getting the miles in mentally prepping for those moments. So it's it's pretty amazing that you do that. How do you sit on the edge like that? And how do you know that you're not I know you said kind of went a little over which I I think you've still absolutely crushed this last race. I know not the end outcome um obviously with an injury but how do you sit on that edge and know I mean think about an amateur runner or how would you coach somebody to know that it's it's time to keep pushing or you might want to hold back so there's no good formula for this.
SPEAKER_02You know it's like I I can't translate what I'm feeling in in my body
Coaching The Edge And Racing By Feel
SPEAKER_02my mind to like what you're feeling but what I tell athletes that I'm coaching is I would prefer you blow up and have a horrible last third of the race than get to the finish line and have anything left in the tank. So I think you just have to be willing to to take the risk up front of okay I might be mortgaging the last let's say you're let's it's 100 miles is easy to do the math like I might be mortging mortgaging my last 30 miles in order to try to hit my A goal which is whatever time whatever execution it doesn't matter but it's like you just have to be willing to take the risk up front that you know you could be signing a warrant for you to death march your last 50k and if you're not willing to do that that's okay. You know it's like finishing the races is a fine goal. You know it's like you don't have to be uh pushing to an empty tank every single time in my head I I would say why not like that's unless you're like doing a specific project where you have like a series of races and you have to be ready for the next one blah blah blah it's like there's certain instances but if you're not like you're there to test yourself and why not test yourself to your full capability um so I think it's it gets it gets easier to know the more you race any specific distance. So I would have real trouble knowing where the edge is if I was running a fast 50k because I don't do those but in a 200 miler I've got lots of experience at this point. And so I kind of I have an idea of like what is possible here like what is going to be sustainable. And so I sort of know what I need to be feeling in that moment. And obviously with training and year by year you're trying to get a little bit better. So it's not like these races get easier because you just start running faster. So if anything maybe they get a little bit harder as you get better. But uh yeah it's this is not a particularly this isn't an answer that like people can totally go just apply but it is this process of experimentation where like if you're unwilling to take risks like you will not be able to find your balance which is okay you know you don't need to take the risks I'm not again at these is these aren't value judgments. This is just if you want to be on the side of like hey let's empty the tank uh every time and so ultimately like I'm gonna I and I have made mistakes in previous 200 mile races where I've I've gone out too fast and all those sorts of things and I'm sure that at some point in my career I'm gonna make that mistake again and I will end up having the worst last third of a race of all time. But you just have to be if if you can't accept that as a possibility you you will not reach your full potential.
SPEAKER_00But then I appreciate where you went with it because my mind was thinking pushing yourself on the back end and you started at the front end of where like that's where it starts literally when the start line happens um so with that potential are you coaching people to go like I love like heart heart rate just to going off a heart rate is that what you push it off of or are you flexing into just really pushing your limits um all around like how do you know what that looks like for somebody let's say you're coaching so I think of all numbers data as the all that should be used to inform your RPE.
SPEAKER_02I think you want to you know you want to get to a point where your RPE meter in your head is good enough that you should be able to guess your heart rate at whatever effort you're at and you should be right 95% of the time. And so I encourage most of the people that I work with to in a race forget about all the numbers. Go all purely based on feel like yes sir there's gonna be some like racing in here like in Coca-Dona did I run the first 50k a little faster than I wanted to because I was with Rachel and Joe and like yes okay so those things are going to happen in a race. And that's fine. But for the most part I think if you're paying attention to your heart rate and it happens to be a little bit higher or it happens to be a little bit lower like this is just a way to like screw up your brain and screw up your head uh or something really long. I think there's probably differences when you get like to 100K like if you're around like a race that's going to take 12 hours as opposed to 60 there's differences here but I'm working with most a lot of people who are doing hundreds and two hundreds and above. And I think that you you want to you want to go by feel. And so it during training I really encourage people to A play that game with their heart rate and then B trying to just really dial in like what is my I can run forever pace. You know what does that feel like it doesn't it is like it doesn't matter about the number because you could be on technical terrain you could be on easy terrain you could be up down uphill downhill it's like you want your forever pace to have a certain feeling and if you can find that like that's the sweet spot for running a 200 uh or a hundred uh anything that's going to take over a day really and so that's I I am much more holistic in that sense as opposed to being super data oriented because I think data I mean I I know people who get their heads messed with by data you know like if especially like there's like sleep stuff. You know if you're measuring measuring your HRV overnight and you do you get a bad score in the morning like do you actually feel bad or are you letting the number tell you that you feel bad. And I think that more often than not in my anecdotal experience working with people it's the latter. It's like they're letting the number dictate how they feel as opposed to the other way around.
SPEAKER_00I mean that's a conversation me and my wife have pretty frequently where you'll get your wake up, see your sleep scores like I mean I feel great. Watch says I didn't sleep great but I feel great. And then the flip side it's like says like I think I had like my highest sleep score ever on my little Merman watch was I don't know I think it was like a 96 or something. I was like I didn't even I'm for me I've not seen that. Maybe for others that's common but I just felt grocky and like it just wasn't my A game. But so one common thing and so I I could definitely see that relationship to having your device dictate how you're feeling which seems to be a theme that's coming up for devices, heart rate monitors screens um yeah a common a common thing that I hear from people and I'm just personally curious. And I say for amateur runners it's common for your first hundred people will say walk your like you should walk every uphill for the first 50 or 60 miles. And that's a like a common thing that I've heard from many people versus kind of pushing the needle. And obviously it's a broad spectrum of what was your training plan like all those things but I mean what is what thoughts do you have with that of walking every uphill versus really intentionally kind of pushing it a little bit on the first 50 or 60 miles?
SPEAKER_02I I think for to begin with I think there's nothing universal that you can say to apply to a hundred mile race in with varying individuals because certain people are going to be have have done 20 hundred K's before their first hundred miler certain people like me I'd done a 50 miler and a marathon before my first hundred miler so like you know you're gonna be you could have people doing with a lot of experience you could have people with no experience. You could have people who their first hundred miler they're going for an ambitious goal I was I I work with a guy whose first hundred miler he ran an 1806 and uh on a course of 12000 feet of climbing. So obviously he's not walking the the ups uh in a lot in a lot of cases you know so it just it's so dependent on like what that person wants to achieve for many people who are attempting to finish the race and that is that's like the goal period it's like yeah the the ultra running rule of if you can't see the top of the hill uh walk it like that makes sense you know I think that's uh that's a reasonable rule of thumb for for many people but for many others it's not and so I just don't think there's this like universal piece of advice which is uh part of the reason that you know with coaching there's like no copy and place plans. You know it's like you can't there's no way to take exactly what this person is doing for their race and and give it to to another person. So it's just it's it it's So much about what that individual's goals are.
SPEAKER_00And and what the race looks like. Yeah. Well, very true. I mean it's also different.
SPEAKER_02Um, I mean, if you're running if someone's running hard rock and that's their first hundred or URA or something, it's like, yeah, you should probably walk all the ups.
SPEAKER_00URA is I've got that dog eared for a year or two. It looks just brutal. I mean, it looks like such a brutal hundred mile. It's it I mean it it's over forty thousand and a hundred miles. I mean it's yeah, it's four forty-two thousand a hundred and two miles.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you should do it if you you should do it next year. I'll be doing it next year so we could go out there and supper together. Just go when it what time of year is it? Is it in this year it's July 17th, so it's middle of July. It's typically the weekend after hard rock.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So actually, and I got super lucky. I I I would actually do it next year, but I got into Western States 100 for next year.
SPEAKER_02Oh, awesome.
SPEAKER_00So congrats. Thank you. I got a random, they do a little charity raffle ticket thing that I was at the lottery last year, I bought it, my name got pulled, and I was like, Nice, that's cool. That's so that's the plan. Or else I would. So I've been kind of uh trailing it out, but uh yeah, maybe I'll come we'll book our usually our family will spend a week in you, Ray. They'll see if we can come book it in and watch you look at you from the hot springs, watch you run in it.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, that'll that'll be fun. That's that's my uh one of my favorite places on the planet, one of my favorite races. Like the community around it is awesome. The finish line is just two orange cones in the middle of a field. It's great.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's I find there's not a ton of stuff about like there's not it seems like it's a very unknown course still. Like you don't see a lot of stuff about it.
SPEAKER_02It's it's relatively low-key as far as ultrasoundadays. It's like one of the more old school races, and I have no real preference for like the two different sides of the spectrum there in terms of races. You know, it's like uh whether it's Coca-Dona with cameras or it's URA with nothing, and but the the community, like the people who put on the race and and everyone who comes there is really special. So plus it's just so beautiful and so difficult that it's like it'll it's it holds a place in my heart for sure. Well, it's and you've done it once before? Yeah, I did it in uh 2022.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and just no sorry suffer fest the whole way. Because I've just seen it, I mean elevation just looks like I mean it's up down, up down for 14 big climbs.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean there's basically no flat. Like that's just it's like if you if you took out all of the flat runnable chunks of hard rock, then you have your Ray. Uh so yeah, it's uh but and there was plenty of suffering. I mean, I was a much worse, I was not particularly well prepared for that race when I did it, in the sense I mean I came third, I did fine. It was early on in my career, you know. There's like a million things that I would do differently now. But uh yeah, it was it was it was hard. I uh I got I I had I I didn't go to the hospital for it, but I definitely had like some rhabdo afterwards. Like I I I've never been that dehydrated in my life. Like my pea was coffee colored, it was so bad. Um so I it was it was brutal, but uh it was a good experience.
SPEAKER_00Just a good experience. A little rhab a little rhabdo. Just a just a you know, just a fun weekend away. Just well man, I'm gonna be rooting for you out there with that one because um I just love it. It seems like it it I think I've watched one or two videos on it, and they're personal videos, like it's not one of those high polish I haven't found it yet. Maybe it's out there, but we just kinda it just remind it makes me think of what ultra running probably was 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Of it just thrown together and it just looks like an absolute blast. Like you said, the two cones at the end um is great. So is that I was gonna ask you, and we're kind of feathering around. I know right now I'm curious to ask your dealer where you just had
Surgery Recovery And Big Future Goals
SPEAKER_00surgery, how long are you out for right now, and what are your I mean you got goal you ray next year? What is that? What does all of that look like for you?
SPEAKER_02U Ray was gonna happen this year along with uh a race in Europe called Tour de John, which is a 208-mile race with 86,000 feet of climbing, so it's basically your ray back to back. Um and so that's that just got sh that just got shifted to next year. So those those two goals are just transplanted to 2027.
SPEAKER_00That's hurt me to hear you say that.
SPEAKER_02That's yeah, it's crazy. There's in there's a part of that race that's a 19-mile descent with 10,000 feet of descending. Uh and I it's like I can't even really picture what that looks like in my head. You know, like how do you how do you prepare your quads to run 19 miles downhill? Uh the answer is go over there and train on the course, which is what I'm gonna do. But uh anyway, my that my 2026 back half of the year just got moved to 2027, which is fine. Um, so you're ready and tour. But uh, yeah, just had surgery uh not this past Wednesday, but the Wednesday before. Um so I'm in a splint right now. I'm non-weight bearing, at least until Monday. Monday I'm hoping that I get out of a splint and into a boot. Um I am very already tired of being in a splint. Not being able to move my ankle is is uh starting to really bug me. Like I'm like waking up in the middle of the night with like this intense urge to point my right toes, and I just like can't do it. So it's like uh starting to get mentally tiresome, but uh that's all all a part of the part of the package. Um so I'm hopefully from the date of surgery I can start running again um slowly re-entry into running three to four months. So I ideally it'll be on that three-month side, but who knows? I'm just kind of accepting whatever happens there. Um, you know, obviously we talked a little bit about like 75 heart at the beginning. I'm doing that, but uh not doing anything to bug my ankle. So doing trying to stay active as intelligently as I can. I mean, I'm sure I'll be able to bike before I can run, so whenever I can bike, I'll start getting outside and doing that. But uh yeah, I really don't know exactly what everything will look like. I'm gonna start PT next Wednesday for my ankle, and I think that will probably be a significantly a significant process that will involve some amount of discomfort as I like attempt to loosen up how I can't even imagine how stiff muscles have to be when they haven't moved for 12 days, you know. So that'll be it'll all be kind of interesting, but uh yeah, in the meantime, it's just focusing on doing what I can to stay sane from an exercise perspective. And then like I mentioned at the beginning, it's like I've been doing lots of writing, so I've got plenty of other goals to uh to focus on that I'm uh attempting to fill my time with.
SPEAKER_00Alright. So three months back to running, hopefully some cycling sooner. And then you ray, what was that? The other I don't want to mispronounce it. Okay. I've I've heard it referenced. It actually ran uh I did it was actually my my first ultra that I did a couple years ago. And uh what it was somebody I don't know where he posted. I I remember I don't know where I was, but in any case, I saw this guy, I think it was on Instagram. He had posted up on uh UTMD, it was a the Kodiak race up in Big Bear, and he some dude just posted up, hey, I'm coming from Italy. Um, does anybody have any extra poles? And I was like, bro, like I'm I'm flying in, I have an extra set, I'll bring you some polls. And like, so like I it was a super cool thing, but I gave him these polls and we just kind of chatted for a little bit, and then I remember I linked up at the end of the race and got him back, and all he kept talking about was like, Oh, these are so easy to run. This is so runnable, and like he was so happy with how flat I'm like, dude, I just got smoked, and you're just happy as can be. Um, so I I've just heard it's just the steepest climbs over there. I mean, just yeah, so you're gonna go spend some time there and train on it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the plan will be so my plan this year, so the race is September 13th of this year, and my plan was to get there like August 15th or so and spend like my last two weeks of training um and taper, like just getting accustomed to life and getting on the course. And so I'll probably do something similar next year.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Have you and I don't I don't know that there's this secret, you know, chat room website that all the pro runners go talk to. So, but I made me think of like Jim Walmsley, his commitment to going to UTMB and living there for a season. Is that something that you've you've communicated with other people that have done that to like set up a game plan, or are you just kind of just going to see what this looks like?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think well, like the only way to train for you know that 19 mile descent is to go do it. Like we just in the continental United States, like that doesn't exist. So like how how can I make that happen? Uh so that's that's really like the conclusion. And I know a few people who've done it and attempted it. And so, and I I also just think like with travel, jet lag, it's like let's if I travel and I get sick while traveling, like I'll have the time to not be sick for the race, you know. I want I'm a very routine-driven person, like we've talked about. So I want to get into a routine with the Airbnb and wherever I'm staying and all those sorts of things. Um, no American male has ever podiumed at the race. So, and I think there's a reason for that, and I think part of it is the the climbing and descending being so I mean, we have you know, your race is ha roughly half of tour, but it's still shorter chunks of each climbing and descending at an at any given time. So I think we to have the best chance of success, you really have to invest that time up front. And it's like, I'm not Jim Walmsley, I don't have the flexibility to go there for an entire race season, but I do have the flexibility to go there for about a month.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, and and definitely not a comparison between obviously you and Jim. I just didn't know if y'all communicated or you know what I mean? Sure. Just like, what did you find is the best practice? Like, what does that look like? Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02So so far as I know, there is not a master chat room for the the the pros, but there there is uh each person's gonna have you know their own individual network, and happily I have a few friends who've who've run tour before.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you never you never know. We I actually met a uh I've met a recon marine and um also a sniper this week in eat. There is like a private Facebook group, so it's I think that was top of mind for me because that's kind of how you you always hear people talk about it, but like that's how you can validate yourself is like you're not making this up. You know, it's like it's so I've it was yeah, that I think it's fresh top of mind for me. But doing U Ray as a tune-up is insane to me. Like that's essentially just hit me. Like that's what it is. Like, U Ray is gonna be your tune-up.
SPEAKER_02Like that's gonna be like your your I mean there's enough time between them that I think I can put a big effort into your ray and be ready for tour, but hopefully I will learn some things during your ray that then I can apply to tour, you know.
SPEAKER_00So why why two hundreds? Like
Why 200 Miles Rewards Toughness
SPEAKER_00why why that?
SPEAKER_02Uh I'm not fast. So what do I have that uh makes me well what am I best at? And I think what I'm best at is the mental toughness side. I think you know as you get a marathon is basically a proxy for a VO2 max test. And uh so you as you get faster and faster at the hundreds, like what's Western states now kind of a proxy for a VO2 max test. Like uh, I'm not I'm not saying there's no other factors involved, obviously, but I'm just uh super simplifying it and as kind of a metaphor here. Whereas the longer you go, you get further and further away from those like physical metrics. I still think that I'm I'm you know, I still think that I I I can't be I'm not totally responsible for like my mental strengths either. I think a lot of that's genetic, a lot of that has to do with circumstance, blah, blah, blah. So it's not it's not that I'm like separating, you know, what are genetic gifts and what aren't, but I think I'm separating the the purely physical characteristics of a faster race to the what do we have over here for the multi-day race? Because I think what so far seems to be the case with 200s is that your marathon time has very little to do with how well you're gonna run a 200. And that's what I like most about them is it's like there's all these other variables. There's how you're gonna handle sleep, there's your aid station efficiency, there's who is willing to hurt the most for the longest, like what we were talking about, like living on the edge for hours and hours at a time. And that is what led me to 200s, is just like where do I have the best ability to compete? And I think it's at that distance.
SPEAKER_00When I do I don't want to go back down this road, but I struggle when you mention maybe your mental toughness is genetic, and and maybe some of it is. However, I I through work and just talking to a lot of high performers, it's a very trainable thing, and you very intentionally train your mind. I mean, it's very clear just speaking to you very I mean, you put the work in with how you wake up, your routines of reading, your meditation, like that is a muscle that you train. And so anybody listening, I mean, you can train. I'm not saying they're gonna get your mental toughness, um, but you you put the work in there. I mean, that that is that is daily practice that you put in uh very intentionally, and it's it's impressive.
SPEAKER_02Um I don't I don't want to underwrite the work that can go into these things, yeah, whether it's me or somebody else. And uh I do think everything to one or another degree is trainable, but like for for me personally, it's like when I was three years old, I was in swim lessons and we were getting you like got patches for you know how far you were swimming. And so most of the people my age, I think, are probably getting into the 200 meter patch, whatever. And I saw older kids getting a 1500 meter patch. And so when I was three, I was like, I'm gonna get that. And uh so I swam for two hours straight when I'm a three-year-old to get my 1500 meter patch. And like, what who is doing that? You know, like my it's not like it's not like my parents at that point had done any sort of training to be like, let's get our three-year-old to be an endurance athlete, you know. So I do think it's like that was just there, you know, and I'm I'm happy it was. And so there is obviously like with anything, there's you know, a mixture of proclivity, circumstance, and training that goes into it, but I definitely had that. There's something to do with willpower that was like the the ingrained in me from the start.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that to and not taking away anything of you and like obviously a lot of innate talent and ability. That's uh that's insane, by the way. 1500 as a three-year-old is that's a weird thing to do. We are happy our kids can swim fairly well at six and seven. And I mean, if they do three laps, you know, 75 yards is a big is a big deal. So 1500 at half the age is is incredible. Um, but finding the thing that you're where you excel, I think I think is is very admirable. But here you're not fast. Like what out of curiosity, like what would be if you had to guesstimate, like what would be a marathon time for you?
SPEAKER_02I have no idea. Uh I'm I'm feel I feel confident about saying I could run like a 245 if I really put effort into a tra in a in a into a training block. But uh I don't I don't know. I mean it's just it and by by not fast, it's like there's a sliding scale here. So it's like, sure, am I faster than average? Yes. But when I run with you know someone who is capable of a 220 marathon, and that like 220 doesn't even get you into the Olympic trials, you know. But you run with someone like that, uh it's like there is not, I I have no hope of getting there. You know, like I I I I'm I could put in all the dedicated training forever, and and that's just like not on the cards for me. You know what I mean? So it's like I'm not fast in relation to elite and sub-elite speed, like don't have it.
SPEAKER_00And that makes sense. I was curious. And by the way, too, like it almost hurt me to ask that question because one thing I personally love about trip, just trail running in general, is how it, you know, you run like a road marathon or a road race, it's always like, how fast did you go? What was your pace? Whereas a trail run. People are like, Did you did you have fun? Yeah, yeah, was it? You know, and so I personally, it's it's it was just truly, I was like, wait a minute, pretty sure you would smoke most people in this speed desk. But that that actually connection makes a ton of sense comparatively on that that sliding scale.
SPEAKER_02Um like, you know, I I've always said that there's a far, far bigger difference between me and a 220 marathoner than a middle of the pack 200 miler and me, in terms of our like in terms of what our like peak marathon time is is is potential is, you know what I mean? Like the it's like the gap between the 90th percentile and the 96th percentile is so enormous in the as opposed to the gap between the 50th percentile and the 90th percentile in like any kind of exponential curve. Like that's just the way the math works out. And so that's how it feels when you know you're like someone in my situation who's who's a professional athlete, you've just got a ton of friends around you who are like you know, professionals in another capacity, whether they're like, you know, sub 100 mile ultra fast, it's like, yeah, I'm nowhere close to them. You know, so it's just like everything's relative, and I'm talking about my own relative space. Because I don't know, I don't want to say like I'm not fast and have someone who is slower than me like feel bad about that. That's like not my point I'm making here. It's just the like ceiling of potential is kind of what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I I think that's coming across. That's how I took it. I mean, I even when you mentioned that I think a lot of it would be some um I would say humility inside of it too, you know, not a very braggadocious um individual, even with everything that you've done. You seem to be very grounded with that. So that's how I took it. Um but I was just curious to unpack it because it's like, well, hold up, because I think you're pretty fast. So have you ever wanted to do 100 just to see what you could do? Or is it just I know you did what you've done in the past, but I mean, have you ever been like, I wonder what that would look like if I just smoked it and just let loose?
SPEAKER_02For sure. I I do I I do want to do that. And I'm act I actually was signed up for Kodiak this year before I knew whether I was gonna get into Torteson. Um and I then I was planning to roll Kodiak over uh to next year, but that um is gonna have to wait probably till 2028. But I'm more I'm I'm interested in doing a race like that that's like got enough climbing, it's kind of runnable because something flat, like, am I interested how fast I could run Havelina? Like, yes. Is that going to do anything for me? No. You know, it's like if I come, let's say I run a even if I like like I'd be aiming for sub 1330 is kind of like my top end A goal for something like that, which is gonna put me 12th, you know? So it's like like my my absolute best flat hundred mile time is like aiming for not elite. And so I do think there's just like a there's like a career decision-making process that goes into like, is this gonna do anything to like help me out in terms of uh like advancing me at all? Like, no. So um that will probably happen at some point, but that's not like on the radar soon. Uh a race like Kodiak would be, I do eventually want to run UTMB. I don't think I have the the capability to compete for the win necessarily, but I think top 10 is totally a possibility. Hard rock, I think I could, I think I could win hard rock. So like there's there's certain hundred milers, like you get enough technicality, elevation gain, you know, in my backyard where I'm like, I think I have enough advantages that if Killian Journay or Tom Evans wasn't in it that year, like maybe I'd have a shot. You know, so it's like uh I it it depends on the race, but uh yeah, I it all is interesting to me. Where does my passion point? Definitely towards multi-days. It's like that's uh where I see my career going long term, and like the thing I want to do most is work toward something like the Appalachian Trail or the PCT, like going after the FKTs on those. Because what I like most about ultras, what I like most about the outdoors, whether it's a six-hour long run, a multi-day race, whatever, is that you get to be mission-oriented for that amount of time. Like I get to be doing one thing. And if you extend that reward cycle, like the the process of finishing a 200 mile race, I think is is j double doubly rewarding as opposed to the process of running a hundred miler. Like it feels it's that much better. You know, I like them that much. Much more. And so I wonder like, where's the cutoff for that? Like, does something that takes 40 days, is that going to feel 20 times better than something that takes two days? Like, maybe. Who am I to say it's not? So I'm interested in that more than I am dropping back down and distance. But I think both things can happen because the nice thing about ultra running is that you actually have a pretty long career half-life with being competitive. So yeah, I think all of it will happen at some point in the future. In what order, I do not know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and I it it seems to be fascinating the career length at which people still compete. And that I heard it compared as the being on the rungs of the ladder, and that's what endurance is. And the longer you're on the ladder, the higher you can climb it, because you can only get so much better. And to your point, it just lasts, the careers last longer. And I also just want to say, too, the I think the thing that all of us fans watching uh you guys do your thing, uh, Killian versus Killian on one course would be would be an epic, epic thing.
SPEAKER_02And we have to arrange it very specifically for the for me to have a shot there.
SPEAKER_00Well, because he does, he thrives in climbing though, too, doesn't he? Like that's his Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He is a unique case in just the sense of like, so after I won the triple crown in 2025, there was like this whole debate about 200s and 100 milers and stuff, and there were plenty of people saying, like, oh, anyone who is a fast hundred miler could go up to 200 milers and just kick all the 200 people's ass. Like that was like a theory that people had. I think there's almost no evidence to support that. But the exceptions to that rule are people like Killing Jarnay, who have done more like extensive projects like his states of elevation thing. Like nobody else in the world could do that. You know, and so it's like when you're talking about someone as talented as he is and who has like all the gifts, you know, like he talked in the New York Times interview about the fact that he almost never needs to sleep more than six hours a night. So like, and he feels rested all the time. And so it's like, okay, so yeah, you have a VO2 max of 92, you're 5'6, and you weigh 120 pounds, you were raised in the Pyrenees. When you're 12, your dad took you on a 40-day ski mountaineering trip. Like, you talk about like all the circumstances to make the perfect athlete. He has two extra hours a day to train because he only sleeps six hours a day. It's like you're not beating that. And then so it's like with someone like him, I think it's just a special case where he could do whatever he wants and you'd be foolish to bet against him. You know, like he's it's it's just a unique individual that I think we all should just instead of that I get no inspiration from Killian Journey because it just seems so unattainable. It's more like, wow, it's it's like it's like the conversation about like have UFOs visited the planet. Like, I don't really care, but if they have, I find it interesting. I'm like, Killian is just interesting to watch. Like, I'm excited to see what he does every time he does anything because you're just like, this is the absolute pinnacle, you know what I mean? So I I think the the Killian versus Killian does does not work out well for me in almost any circumstance. Maybe if we do maybe if we do a high rocks, you know?
SPEAKER_00We don't still everybody would watch it. And I'm sure he would be down for it too. Like he seems like a pretty uh down-to-earth. He seems great. Yeah. But also, I mean you mentioned FUSUFOs visited. It's seems like they did, and they dropped off Killian for all of us to watch, like to watch him do his thing. Um, there's an interesting book called
Second Night Weirdness And Hallucinations
SPEAKER_00Stealing Fire, and I'm gonna thread this back into something you shared earlier. But he talks about um, I actually got because I I for I spent a couple years just researching and looking into PTSD for veterans specifically, and kind of things that help him out. But he references these things in life that take full brain power, where you don't focus on skydiving's one of them, where you don't think about anything else when you jump out of an airplane. It's this. And one thing that I found talking to uh she was Mike Retrieved, she's a friend of mine, she actually was at Moab last year for um her friend actually finished DFL of Moab last year, which was which was cool. Um but one thing that she referenced, it actually made me think of something you just shared too, that that full presence of it. She just said, I love going to be a crew, she just is like, I don't have any interest in running, but I know that when I go crew an ultra, I'm just here and everything else just kind of goes away. And so that's something that you referenced as that you just enjoy that. And I love how you want to see, like, well, how many days can we expand that? How far could we take that and still get the enjoyment out of it? And I just I really appreciated that. So it's it's a cool part about ultras.
SPEAKER_02It's a great feeling. I mean, it's like, do I wanna like after we're done chatting, like at some point today, I'm gonna have to cook and clean and do things, you know. Like when you're running an ultra, you don't have to do any of that. And like you just get you just get to run. And it's like you get to have one activity that you love that you have decided to do. It's not maintenance, you know, it's not it's not your daily task, and it's like that is a special feeling. And I think it's like one that to like have the opportunity to be able to do it is something that I think you know, 99% of humans are not afforded, and so it's just like being able to live a life where you get to pursue those types of goals is just I mean, there's no better gift.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I I really enjoy that. Just that thought process with it, because it's something that just as you mentioned it, it's I personally enjoy it. Obviously, not on on the caliber of races, but it seems interesting now, makes me more intrigued by a 200-mile race. Um, hoping my wife doesn't listen to this.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, that's obviously I think you should do one. It's uh the you you don't know what a second night is like till you get to a second night, and then you're just like, oh, all right, this is different.
SPEAKER_00This is it. This is where well this is that's where you said that that tends to be the toughest one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's brutal. I mean, I haven't entered many third nights, but I assume a third night's hard too, but it's yeah, it's like the the the once you're I I feel like for most people it's like kind of around the 40 hour mark is like where the sleep deprivation really starts to play a factor. And like that, that's interesting mentally, you know, like hallucinations, real yeah, it's just like I don't know, there's there's been points in races where I've like I've in my head, I've been like kind of awake and running, but also dreaming. Like there was one time where I was uh like trying to order at a German bakery in my head for I I don't know how long, but I was like having like attempting to remember the words and blah blah blah, but I'm just like running through the woods, and that's all happening somewhere in the background. It's like what your brain is capable of in those moments is a very strange thing, and it's cool to experience.
SPEAKER_00So uh I'm curious to ask randomly, what was it that hallucinating you so many miles deep, nights deep, into this race was trying to order from the German bakery?
SPEAKER_02Like what was man, so it's ironic is that I I have since the last time I've been to a German bakery I've I'm gluten-free now, which is just so disappointing. But uh I was probably trying to order a cage song, which is like a a cheesy bread, basically, but like a German cheesy bread that's like don't think of dominoes, think of like the the best possible version of that thing.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I mean just all over Europe too. Like they're the breads there, the bakery, like it's not even comparable when you go and sound better. Oh, it's it it's calling them the same foods is just it's not even the same. It's two different things.
SPEAKER_02No, it's it's not fair to uh a European bakery.
SPEAKER_00No, it's we we were um I think last time we went to Spain like two or three summers ago, and just to be able to walk into one of those little deli shops and be able to grab you know two sandwiches, I think in like two beers, and it was like ten ten dollars total. Like it was just super cheap, best meal we've ever had, and it was just great. Yeah, so not comparable at all.
SPEAKER_02Um, for sure. That was uh that was one of the more pleasant daydreams for sure. You know, I'm like, well, hey, this is this is distracting. We'll lean into this instead of how bad my feet hurt.
SPEAKER_00Some German cheesy bread. Um 200 miles uh
Longer Adventures And Volcano Racing
SPEAKER_00is the like right now that's where you're at? Are there I mean if you looked at like the what's it the monster 300? How do you consider that bad boy?
SPEAKER_02Uh it has too much pavement. I don't wanna I don't want to run through the city of Tucson. So there's like 60 miles of pavement in the middle of that race. That just doesn't interest me. Um so I mean I'm down to run longer distances, but uh not that specific race. There is uh in 2028 I've been invited to participate in a 360-mile race uh that's a point-to-point non-repeating course in Hawaii, and that I plan to do for sure. So there will be uh that will hopefully happen in 2028. Uh there's plenty of things around the world that I want to do. I mean, um I just got a message on Instagram that I I haven't even responded to, but uh about like there's a race that apparently traces the Spartans our Spartan army's path to Thermopylae, um, where you know the 300 story took place. That would be awesome. So there's there's lots of things that I'd like to do. And uh yeah, I don't even have like having a comprehensive list like isn't possible because there's just so many options, especially when you start adding in FKTs, long trails outside of races, that sort of thing. It's like it's almost endless.
SPEAKER_00Um there's definitely far more opportunity if you were to go solo. Um what about I mean, have you considered or have you I mean you may have even done it, but Nolan's uh 14?
SPEAKER_02Uh that's yeah, that's on the books too. That's requires some scouting, so it's like there's some upfront uh you know time you have to spend to be able to like really make that happen. But yeah, that's that would be interesting. Um, I mean, I think sometime in the future I think attempting Barkley would be interesting, but for that, like I need I need to learn how to read a topographic map a little better than I currently can. Like I can I can do it, but I'm not that good at it. And could I do it when I've had no sleep and I'm 50 hours in and it's foggy and raining and I'm covered in thorns? Like, probably not. So uh I would probably want to take some classes and practice some skills there. But uh yeah, there's there's just like there's so many interesting things to do. That's why I haven't repeated a ton of races. I mean, I say that I've done Kokadona four times because it took four times to get it to go, you know, mostly okay. And uh yeah, it's like I just I want new experiences. I mean my my biggest why, I guess, is the adventure side of the the sport, and that is ultimately what I am chasing.
SPEAKER_00Which I mean, and that makes a lot of sense. Lots of opportunity, you know, why sticks are just one thing. I'm curious to ask what really quick, was that did that happen to be that's not the spartahlon you were referencing, is it?
SPEAKER_02It's not the spartaphlon. Uh I I think there's a I think that's not it because um the race that I got a message about was mostly on trail, and I think the Spartahlon's mostly on roads. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I well I didn't know if it had that much elevation. But and then the one in Hawaii, you said it's a non-repeating course in Hawaii.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh. Yeah, so it's on the big island, and uh yeah, it looks awesome. Like there's uh you climb both volcanoes, so there's only 65,000 feet of climbing over the course of 360 miles, which really isn't like a crazy amount, but 20,000 of it comes in 40 miles. So you've got like you you like go from sea level to 13,000 feet twice in the space of uh 14 40 miles, which would be an insane experience. And then you spend like a lot of time traversing the volcanoes, and in the little runner guide that they put together, they've got uh, you know, they're like you must carry at least an N95 mask with you in case you encounter poisonous clouds of sulfuric volcanic gas. Which uh I I don't know what it says about me, but that detail, I was like, sign me up immediately. That sounds so awesome. So yeah, that uh that's good thing. It's called the Hamakea 360, and that is uh that'll be the inaugural year for it, and yeah, that will be very exciting.
SPEAKER_00I love that it's uh that's that's it. The N95 mask required, that's what got me. Let's go. Man, that's just fascinating. Well, I we all love to see. I mean, we'd love to, I say we just fans of the sport, love to watch it. I know you had you referenced that Forged and Failure that I
Film Release Plans And Screenings
SPEAKER_00um heard you reference it. Is that I I tried to look for it the other day, I didn't see it. Is there a timetable? Is it out?
SPEAKER_02And it is not out yet. So um it took a little while to get some footage that we wanted from previous iterations of Cocodona was kind of uh one of the major delays and just like getting putting everything together. But uh we're supposed to get the rough cut um to look over like this weekend. And so hopefully we are looking at kind of an early July sort of release. Um I know you're based in northern Colorado, so uh we're hopefully gonna do a screening at the Lyric. So um well, if if that happens, I will I'll definitely let you know, and we can we can meet in person and um hang out with some some of the community there. But yeah, we'll hopefully do some live screenings and that'll obviously be a YouTube release and everything. So when that happens, um I will I will obviously be posting about it. Hopefully I will be putting in lots of time promoting it because I don't have anything else to do.
SPEAKER_00So well, we're I'm I'm excited for it. It sounded um pretty amazing um from just from getting to listen. I mean, the only reference point was in that Cam Haynes podcast is where where I heard about it. Um so very, very excited for that. You know, what and I'd love to ask you too, just
Low Hanging Fruit For Better Running
SPEAKER_00getting outside of that, I know we had talked about a little bit about just amateurs and how they show up to big races, but what do you think? And every just coaching and talking to people, what where do you see as like just low-hanging fruit for the average just person that's interested in ultrarunning or just running in general? Like, where do you see just pretty common threads for them that they can tick it up and match?
SPEAKER_02So for most ultrarunners that I I work with, like what I spend my time doing is telling people to do less. And a lot of really dedicated people, whether you're front, middle, back of the pack, it's like you have these like ambitious goals, and a lot of these people really sacrifice sleep. And so if if you're if your sleep schedule isn't working, like that's the first thing to try to adjust, you know, it's like, okay, instead of instead of trying to cram in miles where they don't fit, like how can we adjust this so we're focusing on quality over quantity? The analogy I use is if you picture your life resources as a pie graph, like you might have you have a certain percentage of that pie that can be devoted to running, and that includes recovery, mobility, strength training, all of those things. And I've worked with people who have 5%, I've worked with people who have 20%, 50%. Me as a professional, I probably have like 80 to 90 percent on any given week. So everybody's different, right? And if you've you you can't make your pie graph bigger, you can just adjust the slices of the pie. And so if you're trying to fit too much in, like the graph's gonna break, you will break. Uh, and so the low-hanging fruit is the focusing on on quality over quantity. Um, that's that's like the easiest thing. Well, I'd say easiest. That's the thing that most people could use to change that can often take, like, that's where a coach can be really helpful because it takes a little bit, I think, experience, expertise to look at like a schedule and holistically assess like where can we place training? What makes the most sense here? Um more practically, if you like, you know, if you don't have you're not interested in working with a coach, or you know, you feel like you have all of that under control, fueling, fueling is huge. Like everything, most of what we know about how to fuel for endurance sports has been learned in the past five years. Uh like the gels are way better than they used to be, like snacks are way better than they used to be. So I think if most people, if if not aiming at high carb, should probably aim for higher carb um intake. I think obviously that comes with a cost too. So, you know, there's some can be some cost-benefit analysis. Like, I think training like you plan to fuel on race day on all your long runs is a great idea. If you don't want to do that for every run throughout the week, because gels are expensive, like that's understandable. Like, where can you purposefully put fueling like around intensity and around around duration? So adjusting um like that, I think a lot of runners don't strength train enough. Um, even if you know you're doing two 20-minute sessions a week, like that could make a big difference. Uh, protein is another big thing. You look at any kind of surveys of endurance athletes, it seemed like seems like endurance athletes are probably widely protein deficient. So, like those are all low-hanging fruit that you can make relatively easy life changes and adjustments that don't require like this like massive shift in anything and make significant improvements.
SPEAKER_00Uh I love that you brought up sleep and first. I was watching um uh Hans Troyer was talking about it. He was answering some question or something, and he had said honestly, like pro he had mentioned too access to resources. Yeah, I think he like as a pro, like becoming pro, like he's just like, I just have easier access to resources to like get stuff done, which I think you had maybe on a parallel similarity to that pie graph that you mentioned, just having a bigger piece of that chunk. But he said that's a big focus for him is like everybody's training super hard, but I want to recover the hardest. So he's like, that's been his shift, and it really made internalized for me because I started looking at my sleep, not I would not ideal. So what would be, and I know everybody's different, like what do you look for? Some of your coaching, like how much sleep are you hoping somebody gets permanent?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think for most people, uh for most people, roughly eight hours on average, I think, is like a good thing to aim for. Like that traditional wisdom seems to hold up um anecdotally. But you know, after if you're if you're doing a six-hour long run, you probably need nine hours. You might need ten hours, you know. Like I I try to have at least one day a week where I don't set an alarm. So I'm just waking up whenever I wake up. Uh, but you know, if it's it's a kind of around the margins. Like if someone's getting six a night, can we get can we try to get seven a night? If someone's getting seven, can we try to get eight? If someone's getting six, but their sleep quality is terrible, like they have all these bad habits surrounding their sleep, can we get six quality hours in? You know, like this kind of goes back to the phone hygiene, that sort of thing. So it's it's on a case-by-case basis. You know, if people have really busy work lives, they have kids, it's like it can be really complicated, right? And so it's like, where can we realistically make gains? Um, whether it's a training, sleep, fueling, recovery, all of those things. And you just kind of have to assess like what is going to be sustainable there. And sometimes that results in a reduction in training hours and an increase in in uh in trying to increase sleep time. Sometimes it results in, okay, this person needs to sacrifice like we've got some wasted time here in in little chunks, you know. They've they've spent a little bit of time doom scrolling or whatever doing that. It's like, can can we eliminate that, you know? And it's not like I'm having this type of in-depth conversation with everybody because I sort of let athletes like dictate how much they're telling me about like their life as a whole, you know what I mean? I'm not trying to overstep my bounds as like their running coach, but when someone's training for an ultra, especially working with someone who's training for a 200, it's like this needs to be a significant portion of your life for you to reach your goals, right? And so it's like how can we best fit it in? Um, and so it's about making gains from wherever they're at. It's like you have to lose sight a little bit of what's ideal and just be like, how can we improve the person as opposed to how can we get to the North Star, you know?
SPEAKER_00Well, that I mean that's fantastic advice. Um yeah, really, really great advice. And you mentioned the sleep hygiene too stuff like I mentioned in that one hour of no phone before you go to or when you wake up. Probably applies to right before bedtime too. 100%. Just to help help wind down things like that for ensuring to get to sleep. So uh one of the things it'd be uh I'd love to ask you about if you don't mind, I'd love to
High Carb Fueling Without Gut Trouble
SPEAKER_00ask you about that high carb fueling, if that's okay, just to pick your brain. Um because you see it a lot, and as a just as a fan of the sport, it's obviously something that everybody seems to be talking about, referencing. So my last my last two I did a desert rats hundred K well in your area actually, just um I've done it the last two years. I it's a great, that's a really fun race.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, that's a that's an awesome trail system, the Coca-Poly system. It's great, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's I I really thoroughly enjoyed it. But this year I did I experiment more with the high carb stuff. And I would take uh one tailwind high carb. I think I was pulling in like 120 grams of carbs per hour. And nice by I think my first year that I did it, I think I was 1630. Um this year I was just over 13 hours, so I was happy with my time drop and like getting improving. But I got really full. My stomach wasn't turning, but I got super full. And it got me thinking, I was like, I have no idea like how many carbs should I take. You know, and I started like researching, like what do I do? Like, how do you figure out what does that look like? Because I wasn't my stomach wasn't turning, but I was really full. So I stopped taking it in, which meant I stopped taking water. And by the end, like had it been 100 mile rates, it would have been a different problem. Uh fortunately I was like, I have 10 miles left. Let's just push this through and finish it. But how do you dial in how much to take? Like how much you might actually need.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what your heart rate was roughly for that kind of effort?
SPEAKER_00Uh it was zone two mostly, um, which for me was in the 130s.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um, so I I would say like zone two, most people don't need to be at 120 an hour. So like uh I have experimented um on some like higher intensity runs being at like 140 an hour, but that's when I'm like, you know, on uphills, I might be bumping very close to, if not above, threshold for like uh short, short periods of time, right? And my like average heart rate for a four-hour run when I was doing 140 grams of carbs an hour was like 155, um, 150. You know, so more so pretty, pretty high. So when uh I I think a lot of people, um men and women are a little different. Women typically need fewer carbs because they're just naturally more efficient at burning fat than men are. Um plus they have typically uh they're typically smaller, so it's like even smaller men need lower carbs because of metabolism and like the requirements to fuel. So it's all over the place in terms of like it's gonna be unique to the individual. But really, like the the kind of golden rule is like higher intensity, higher carbs, lower intensity, lower carbs. So if I was running, I'm gonna just talk about me because I know me best. If I was running, you know, Desert Rats 100k, I'd probably be aiming at somewhere in the mid eight hours, right? And then so I'm like, I'd be I'd be roughly a heart rate of like 145, 155, probably a lot of that race. And I'd be shooting for probably that 120 grams of carbs an hour kind of um goal for me, and I am uh 5'9 and 175 pounds, so um that's roughly like where I sit. And then if someone who was 6'3 and 190 was trying to go run the same time I'm running, like maybe they're gonna be at 140, 150. But um it's it's it's like a sliding scale for the individual. And so it sounds to me like you were probably overfueling uh and like weren't at a level where you were actually like your furnace wasn't burning hot enough to actually use all 120 grams. And so like that for me, like that's presented as a problem in 200s, where typically for the first hundred miles, I've aimed for something like 90 grams of carbs an hour, and then I drop it down to about 60 for the the second hundred, and it's not perfect because it changes a little bit depending on the terrain I'm in, but these are like rough averages, and so like as intensity drops, and a way to notice this, like for me, it's just you start having some stomach issues, some farts you can't trust, like that sort of thing, uh, in the second half of a race. And so, like, that's when you you pull back on the carbs, like that's a practical sign that you're you know the stomach's not working um at the intensity that you want it you want it to. So it's like this experimentation process with with each person, and so like what I typically will say for most people, because a lot of people I work with come to me and they're like, yeah, I'm getting like 30 to 40 grams an hour. So then it's like, okay, let's get up to 60. Like I think 60 is a really good place where most people will feel better, um, regardless of intensity. And then it's like, okay, so is this person happy at 60? And is is like, what are their goals? Are they are they finishing races? Are they trying to compete? Like, what are we doing here? Are they running 100 milers or are they running 50ks? Like, and so then you go for like, okay, I'm higher intensity, let's ratchet it up, let's train our gut on long runs, that sort of thing. Um, so it is a little bit all over the place, but in general, I think most people uh underfeel in my experience.
SPEAKER_00Okay, which and I I I could say for sure that I had in the past, that's why I was interested in it. But that makes sense. Is it and it just to regurgitate what you had shared there, the furnace not burning hot enough? Like in the because I know that at some point it switches from burning fats to burning carbs. And so if your plan is to go high carb, should you be trying to go at that higher intensity of heart rate, essentially, just to be burning that fuel source versus the lower one is what you're sharing?
SPEAKER_02Basically, yeah. So if you're it just it just depends on the timeline of your race, because like you know, for most people, if you're running western states, you're not finishing in 14 hours, right? So it's like your muscular endurance is going to be the factor as opposed to like your cardiovascular capacity more than anything else. So like if for depending on the timeline of the race, like the answer to that question is a little bit different. But for in in general, I'd say like loading up the front half of your race with more carbs as opposed to your the back half is the way to go because your metabolism over time slowly shifts from carbs being preferential to more fat preferential.
SPEAKER_00That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. That was something that just I forgot I didn't like I wanted to circle back because I did the quad rock 50 and I had the same exact thing happen um where it just I guess wasn't going going hard enough. Um it just felt full stomach mount turning, but definitely over fueling with it. So it's part of that unique puzzle to dial in. So for sure.
SPEAKER_02It is just like a mat like and especially getting longer and longer, it's like you have to do the races, you know, because it's not like most people can go out on 50 mile training runs, and it's not something you can do every week for sure. So you just don't you only have a limited amount of opportunities to experiment, and so it is just this kind of slow process over the over years to learn like what's working for me, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I appreciate all the time that you've spent and
Writing, Substack, And Future Books
SPEAKER_00just uh all the good conversation. Um, I would like to ask, as we put a bow on this too, you've mentioned writing a couple times. Um, and I'm just curious as somebody that likes to read and anybody that's listening that might want to read some of your stuff, like where are we gonna find it? What do you like to write about?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's uh I have a Substack. Um it's uh RunTough Mindset on Substack. Uh so it's Substack.com slash at sign runtuugh mindset, just exactly how it sounds. Um and mostly I write, you know, I've got race reports when I'm in training. I'll do a training log every week, that sort of thing. I mean, um right now it's kind of a little all over the place. The the last the title of the last article I wrote is called You Are Not a Snowflake.
SPEAKER_00So uh I think I saw a reference to that one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'll I'll I'll write sometimes kind of about mindset things and and just um you know I don't I I we we uh we both commiserated before this about like yeah, we would don't get into political issues, but I I will get into just like some societal things where like I think these are things we can in my opinion all be doing to like make ourselves better day by day. Um I do, you know, I it's just kind of whatever I want to write about, you know, and so often it's gonna be running related, sometimes it won't be. I'm working on uh uh an article right now about why I think you should stop listening to music on Shuffle. Um, so you know, that's gonna be related to purposeful consumption of content, that sort of thing. Um so a lot of it's gonna have gonna have to do with mindset. And sometimes I write about existential stuff. I've got a draft and in a folder um called Universal Consciousness and Ultra Running. And so it's just like whatever interests me, it's the nice thing about having your own subsack that I'm not on a publishing schedule, I'm not interested in monetizing it. So it's just like whatever comes to mind, that's what's gonna happen. And if my wife uh you know edits it and says it's good enough, it'll it'll show up there.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Well, will we ever uh have the opportunity to read a book kind of uh with your life in it? I mean, uh do you have future plans for that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, actually in the time since surgery, I I started on like some memoir style essays. So I've got uh some drafts of those started. I mean, I've written three novels um that I've I haven't published, but uh one of them I think is actually good, and so maybe someday I'll I'll get around to like finishing a process for that and attempting to publish it. So maybe you'll eventually read one of those. But yeah, I've got I have lots of ideas. I'm not I'm much better at having ideas than following through on them, which I think is a very common theme among writers. But hopefully at some point there will be something in book form that we can all hold in our hands.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, that's something that I I personally enjoy hearing people's stories with make them tick, and you know, you live such an interesting life and are living such an interesting lifestyle that it's it's I personally enjoy reading about that stuff. There's a couple people like uh Courtney to Walter. Um I would love to just hear just glimpses of her life. I think she's such a unique interest. Everything I've seen from her, she just seems like what a wonderful person that I would love to learn more about, you know. Just so um if you're listening, Courtney, please write your book because we would love to know just more, right? And uh it's and yeah, no pressure, but it's just it's it's fun for me. It's something I enjoy. So and I I'd love to just hand it over to you as we as we close this up. You know, what what are some things? I mean, one thing I'd love to ask is what do you typically not get to talk about that you wish you got asked more about? And you can close it off with this, and maybe it opens up the second chapter of those.
SPEAKER_02You know, what uh what do I not get to talk about? Um I mean I I've enjoyed the conversation. I think it's been it's nice that I think you know there's like a lot of there I've done enough podcasts at this point that you know if people are interested in hearing about the Triple Crown from last year, there's places they can go, and you know, even Coca-Dona, it's like there's there's recaps of that. So I appreciate that we just kind of dove into to ultra running related topics, but not necessarily I I feel like we didn't repeat a lot, which is which is great, and not always something I've said about every every podcast I've been on. So I appreciate that. Um but what do I not get to talk about? I mean oh I
Escaping Outrage Culture With Community
SPEAKER_02think that and I've probably talked about this too, but this is just something I've been thinking a lot about lately and relates to the last article I wrote. I think that we are in like a cultural place where we have like so much nihilism and negativity. It infects everything, you know. Like, like people get upset. We've we've we've referenced cable news. It's like it's like a good use case for it. It's like algorithmic content and cable news are just delivering outrage to people on conveyor belts 100% of the time. And our brains are evolutionarily wired to pay attention to negative stimuli more than positive stimuli. Like we, it's it's more useful for our survival to remember where grandma got eaten by a leopard as opposed to where we found a tree filled with delicious bananas. So it's like that mechanism isn't useful right now to many of us living in the affluent world, you know, in the United States, Western Europe, those types of places. And so, like, I I'm really disturbed by the amount of like pessimism I encounter amongst young people. And I think that there's so much positivity in the world. Like, I'm so happy that the World Cup is going on right now because and I'm happy that it's in America, because I think that people all around the world are traveling here and learning that the United States isn't just a succession of news stories that go viral. Like the United States is a place filled with people, people who are different and people who some of them are not awesome, but most are great. And like, like, you know, the one of the stories that I've been so uh happy to see is like the Algerian World Cup team in Lawrence, Kansas. Like this this like small town, middle America being so welcoming and enthusiastic to a completely foreign group of humans, and they're so stoked to be there. And it's like this is the world that we're actually living in. Like we're not living in the world of outrage and fury, and when you talk to people, whether they believe different things than you or they believe the same things as you, like most people are nice. And it's like if we can f if you can figure out a way to orient your life around focusing on those things and like giving yourself the opportunity to appreciate the fact that you have this one shot on this beautiful planet, as opposed to just lamenting the fact like of whatever circumstances might not be working in your favor, like that is where we all need to put our focus because that's the way we're going to get out of the problems we have, and that's the way that we're going to be able to like once again pull together as a community. And that's what like I think the World Cup does so beautifully, is like it's the big is like the single biggest example of collective effervescence effervescence. It's the it's bigger than the Olympics. Like more people watch the World Cup final than any Olympic event, and that that happens every single time. And so it's like that's that's what's been on my mind a lot lately. Yeah, like pulling together as humanity and trying to be charitable to to fellow people, even if they are saying things that you disagree with. Like if we all zoomed out at the highest possible level, it's like, what do most people want? They want the most amount of flourishing for the most amount of people. And everything else of in terms of how to get there is just details. And so if that's what we can base your human relationships on, like that's the path forward. Um, and that is just not what I see happening around me a lot. And that is is like what I hope to be like I hope my example of pursuing my passions and hopefully being grateful and like nice in the way that I interact with other other humans. Like I I want I want to be a part of that cultural change. Um, so yeah, that's that's like what's been occupying a lot of my mental space lately.
SPEAKER_00When it wanna ask too, the recipe for for people to get out of it, but it also, and I don't want to answer the question, but it seems like you live that life too. You know, I think a lot of what we opened up and talked about, that living intentionally, not letting it dictate your day with you know, in the morning, first thing, but just intentionally, this is what I'm reading, this is what I'm focusing on. Um, now I'm meditating, which is a totally different practice. But I mean, what would be the tools? If not those, what additional things would
Meet People And Practice Meditation
SPEAKER_00you give to, you know, uh this anybody that's feeling pessimistic about the world around them?
SPEAKER_02I mean, the the answer is go go meet people. Like that's it's I will when I was giving a talk at a at the college in Grand Junction, Colorado Mesa, um, someone asked a really good question, and they were like, you talk a lot about the team aspect of ultra running, and you also talk a lot about individual responsibility. Like, how how would you uh tell people to balance both of those when we live in a very individualistic society in America? And I thought that was a really thoughtful question and not one that I expected to be asked. But uh my answer is basically it's like, okay, so we do live in a more individualist place. Like in in China or or other more collectivist societies, like even Western Europe, it's like there are facilitated ways of connecting with people that have been there for years and years and years, and tradition, and and and there's more of a shared past than there is in America because we are the melting pot. We have the we're not an old country, like all of those things. And so like it is it requires you to go to places. Like, um, there's this really famous book by this uh political scientist called ro named Robert Putnam called Bowling Alone, and he basically like charts the death of um bowling leagues as like a way to kind of show the slow collapse of American civic society. Um and that is one of the big problems. Like you just we we need people to be going to physical spaces because what all what being online allows you to do is allows you to read the words totally lacking tone and body language of someone who disagrees with you, and then say, you know what, giant F you, middle finger, you're a terrible person, like blah blah like all these things you would never say to someone in person, most likely. Um and so if you can go to physical spaces and interact with people, like that's the way to feel better about things. Because like, do if I were to have like sit-down conversations with all my neighbors about like specific issues, like I'm sure we're gonna disagree about things, but I know that I could go to my neighbor's house and be like, hey, like I have an emergency, I have to go out for the weekend. Can you feed my dog while I'm gone? And they're gonna say yes. And I hope that they know the same thing about me, right? And so like that's the connection. Um and I think that people don't have that. Like in my article that I just wrote, if there's there's just like a lot of disturbing facts about loneliness, you know, like um, something like 54% of American adults report feeling like nobody knows them, you know, and like how like that's that is so sad in a world where materially we are doing better than ever. Like there's just there's like all these divergent facts. Um, when you look about like like people living longer 50 years ago, pulling people out of poverty, like all of these things, but then like we have this crisis of of loneliness. And I I think unfortunately, fortunately, I I love the rugged individualism of America, but it is on you to find community. And so I think doing that in a physical space is is is probably my best suggestion. I also think just to circle back to meditation, I think meditation is as close to a panacea as it comes. It's like being able to pull back from your thought process is a superpower. Like you're you you start you start going down a negative thought spiral, being able to just have the impulse to be like, I'm gonna take a deep breath. Everything's okay. Like that alone does so much for you, and it requires practice. So that's why meditation is a practice.
SPEAKER_00The uh tipped me over the edge on it was something that I was looking to explore because I've not explored it, and now I'm like, I've I feel like I have to make a commitment, even just to if I can get a small window in. It made me think of and you mentioned that getting people together. We had um Ryan Reynolds came out randomly and did a talk for this big conference that I was at, and just total totally random. I I know uh doesn't seem like belongs in this conversation, but he shared this one thing that that I think applies here. He just said the conversation changes when there's blood in the room. And it was such a it just made me feel that right there that when you have two people interacting together, everything changes. That it's it's easy to when everybody's separated. Um and so just uh and I love the connection, just your neighbor having that personal connection, even though you disagree, you're still helpful, that sort of thing. So and I'm I'm telling you right now, uh my viewpoint has changed of you, Mr. Korth, is that I think uh of Korth 2028 uh shirt that needs to get made and not and not for your Hawaii race.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I uh it's funny you say that. I went to school to college thinking I wanted to be a politician. I have a I got a I have a bachelor's and a master's degree that I was planning on putting to to use in DC. And uh there is literally nothing that sounds less appealing to me in the entire world than doing that. So all right. Well we'll take I'll take the the maybe that'll change at some point, but uh man, hopefully I can uh I can you know i i have a good influence on some amount of people in some other fashion because whole no.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Could be the ultimate uh 200-mile race. Yeah, just the big slug fest through politics. Um and I I really appreciate you taking some time and and sharing all of that. I think we could unpack and just dive into that last piece right there for
Final Thoughts And Thanks
SPEAKER_00been an enormous amount of time, and and maybe one day we can, because uh I really appreciate your viewpoints and thank you so much for for taking some time and joining us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you for having me on, and this was really fun. And uh yeah, I mean I appreciate the chance to just sort of like soliloquize about uh what's been on the mind because it's you know it's you it's like I'm I'm blessed to have a venue to be able to do that, so I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00And it's nice to see somebody with the venue doing great things and spreading um like good word for doing good things. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you.