The Kingdom Investor

49 - Finding Freedom in Prison | Mark Whitacre

February 17, 2023 Daniel White Episode 49
The Kingdom Investor
49 - Finding Freedom in Prison | Mark Whitacre
Show Notes Transcript

We continue with the concluding part of our interview with Mark Whitacre. In this episode, Mark shares stories of his eight-and-a-half years in prison and reflects on his life in confinement as the most productive years of his life. Mark discusses the ensuing relationships with key people who introduced him to God, transformed his life, and enabled him to find freedom in prison.

Mark speaks about his personal journey of being addicted to materialism, greed, and ego, and how God transformed his heart to enable him to find peace, freedom, and purpose in prison. He shares about his current work with t-factor and the Faith-at-Work movement as he has dedicated his life to servant leadership. Having lived his life full circle and fully appreciating his life purpose, he now helps business leaders and owners to leverage their influence within their businesses for God's kingdom. So sit back, relax, and get ready to be inspired by Mark's powerful story. 

Key Points From This Episode: 

  • Mark tells the story of his life in prison and reflects on the eight-and-a-half years of incarceration as the most productive years of his life.
  • What did Mark consider as the real prison in his lifetime?
  • How does Mark characterize his relationship with his wife, Ginger, throughout the years?
  • How did Mark’s family survive the years of his imprisonment?
  • What are the t-factor and the Faith-at-Work movement?
  • Why is the workplace the best place for ministry work?
  • How can business leaders and owners leverage their influence within their businesses for God's kingdom?
  • What are some key pieces of advice on how business leaders can make a difference in the workplace?
  • Mark reflects on his remarkable story from being addicted to materialism, greed, and ego to God’s transformation of his heart teaching him how to live as a servant leader. 
  • What is Mark’s key piece of advice on living a life of purpose?
  • Mark answers the mentor-minute questions.


“Those eight years in prison at $20 a month were the most productive years of my life.”

“Evangelism and discipleship are the purposes of our lives.”

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Mark Whitacre website

Operation Timothy

Corporate Chaplains of America

Coca Cola Consolidated

Faith At Work Network

Surprised By Faith by Dr. Don Bierle

Life In The Presence of God by Kenneth Boa

Limping With God by Chad Bird


The Kingdom Investor Podcast on LinkedIn 



ANNOUNCER: Imagine taking your generosity to the next level, impacting more lives, and leaving a godly legacy for generations to come. Get ideas and strategies to do just that when you listen to these personal stories from high-level Kingdom champions.

The Kingdom Investor Podcast showcases business leaders who have moved from success to significance, sharing how they use worldly wealth for kingdom impact. Discover how they grew in generosity, impacted more lives, and built godly legacies. You'll find motivation, inspiration, and practical steps to grow as a Kingdom Investor.

Daniel White (DW):  Hello, and welcome to The Kingdom Investor Podcast. This is your host Daniel White. Today we interview Mark Whitacre. Mark's life story is so incredible that they made a movie out of it starring Matt Damon as Mark Whitacre. Mark is currently the Executive Director of Coca-Cola Consolidated. He has a Ph.D. in Nutritional Biochemistry from Cornell University, and has been blessed with an incredible wife, Ginger. 

In this two-part episode, Mark tells us how he went from having his own private jet to eight years in prison, and how God has transformed him and redeemed his life in the process. 

If you enjoy this episode, please share us with your friends and write us a review. 

And without further ado, let's jump right into the show.



Mark Whitacre (MW):  And he said he had a Bible study called Operation Timothy, a tool that CBMC Christian Business Men’s Connection uses. And he said he was going to introduce us. This was September 1997. And he said I'm going to take you through that, I'm going to introduce you to God before you go to prison. And he spent several hours a week even though he didn't have the time with his position, CFO of a biotech company, young family. I know he didn't have the time, but he invested six or seven hours a week with me going through Operation Timothy and introduced me to God. And he started to give me hope to the point, I thought I was gonna take my own life before I went to prison, it brought me to a point where I saw a little bit of hope. 

And then my second week in prison, Chuck Colson showed up. He read about me in the Washington Post. Chuck Colson was the White House Counsel under President Nixon, went to prison for the Watergate Scandal, and became a Christian during that brokenness. During the Watergate scandal, changed his life, and became the president and CEO of Prison Fellowship, the largest prison ministry in the world, he found it. This would have been the 70s. And he's shown up and talked to me in 1998. And then he's also at Breakpoint Radio and I didn't know who he was at all. I was in high school when Watergate happened. And so when he showed up to see me, and he said, he read about me in the Washington Post, he saw a lot of his own personal story in my story. 

He went to Brown, I went to Cornell. He went seven years to be a lawyer, I went eight years to get a Ph.D. Both of us highly educated, Ivy League. He said that he got caught up and addicted to power. I got addicted to power and greed. And both of us ended up in prison at 40, at $20 a month by the time we were 40. Both of us. He was just 20 years ahead of me.

And I told him about Ian House. I told him Ian House has been talking to me about God for seven months. And he said, Mark, if you have given your life to Jesus and I said, Chuck, I want to, and I've got some hope. But I've got eight years of college saying if you're a scientist, if you're a Christian, you can't be a scientist. I've got eight years of education telling me there is no God - Big Bang Theory, Darwinism, evolution. He said, Mark, do you think there's a Ph.D. scientist who believes in God? And I said, Chuck, I don't think there's one in the world. 

And he started showing me article after article and book after book, some of the best scientists in the world that believe in God. Even Albert Einstein wrote an article that only God created man, and only God created the universe. And then he showed me Francis Collins, who discovered the human genome is a Christian. And then Sir Isaac Newton wrote as much about Jesus as he did about science, and then he showed me a book by a guy named Dr. Don Bierle a scientist, and in Minnesota who was an atheist. He had the same education as I had, a Ph.D.biologist, and I'm a Ph.D. biochemist and he heard all these professors say you can't be a Christian. So, he became an atheist just like I was.

And he started studying and researching and he wanted to prove once and for all, to all the believers, that there is no God and he wanted to do it scientifically. And he studied it for years, years of exhaustive study scientifically. And at the end of those decades of studying it, he's still alive today in Minnesota, Dr. Don Bierle, B-I-E-R-L-E. He wrote a book, Surprised By Faith and his conclusion was God exists and Jesus is the Son of God. And he became a Christian. And I finished that book and I got down on my knees in a prison cell. And I gave my life to Jesus Christ in June of '98, my third month in federal prison. Because after everything I had read plus adding that book which was the last straw on the camel's back when I read that book, and everything else that Chuck Colson shared with me, I concluded, how can you be a Ph.D. scientist and not believe in God? 

And I became a Christian on June 4th '98. I had just turned 41, the month earlier. I was on my third month in prison at eight years to go. And I look back, and I will say this, I felt a certain calmness and certain peace that I've never felt. And I finally said, you know what, I get it. I get why I have to spend this way this past decade. I get it. And I started praying, I said, God, I have eight years of prison. There's no parole in the federal system, you get 15% off on good behavior. So, a 10-year sentence that I had, you have to do eight and a half years, you get 15% off. 

Parole is for state prisons, not federal. So, I'm gonna have to do eight and a half years on a 10-year sentence. And so, I'm not getting till age 49. I said God, what can my purpose in prison be? And I prayed about it. I prayed about it. Chuck Colson helped me build my quiet time and my prayer life and he discipled me and helped me grow in my faith. And I prayed about what my purpose would be. And I looked at that Bible that Chuck Colson gave. I looked at those Operation Timothy books, the Bible study that Ian House gave me, and I thought, where in the world are people more hopeless and helpless than federal prison?

And I started discipling guys one by one taking them through Operation Timothy, taking them through Bible study. And I ended up taking 61 guys through it during my 8 years, one-on-one. It's a couple of years program to go through it. I had 24 hours of free time for eight years and I wanted to use that time productively. A lot of those guys didn't have their GEDs so I helped them get their GEDs. Some of them I helped get a two-year degree in correspondence, an associate degree. And I looked back, those eight years in prison at $20 a month were the most productive years of my life, at $20 a month. And I can tell you, Daniel, I became a free man in prison.


MW: And the prison in my lifetime was when I was addicted to greed. When people would drive by my house and say that man has a jet, has a mansion, has an eight-car garage filled with Ferrari and eight cars, that was prison. That's addiction to greed and materialism, and trying to live the way the world lives. That was prison and there was no amount of money that ever filled that void in my heart. I could have gotten to the level of Bill Gates and that void would have never been filled. And I'm in prison at $20 a month and that void in my heart was filled. I was a free man. And I couldn't wait to get up in the morning. Thank God, what do you have in store for me today? To speak through me. Let me be a vehicle for you. There are 700 inmates in this prison. Most of them don't know you, a lot of them have never heard of you. 

And I said, just use me anyway, you can use me. And what a great way to share the gospel when you're helping somebody get their GED and you're helping get them educated. I help Spanish guys learn how to write English and speak English. And then I share the gospel. I mean, God just put so many opportunities on a daily basis to be a witness for Him and share my own personal testimony like I'm sharing here today with these inmates. Most productive years of my life. 

Just look at my family. Divorce rate if you served five years and longer is at 99% divorce rate. 99% if you serve five years and longer. 78% divorce rate if you go to prison at all. I'm married 43 years and I had a 99% divorce rate because I serve eight and a half years. It is 99% if you serve five years and longer. My wife moved to each prison. With good behavior you move to a good place. I was in Yazoo, Mississippi. Ginger and my kids moved there this very weekend. Good behavior, I got moved to South Carolina. Ginger and my kids moved there. 

My last five years, I was blessed to be on the Pensacola Florida Navy base. In the navy, working for the navy for $20 a month. But I'm with the navy, I'm in a good place. There were no fence, no razor wire, I was basically with the navy but $20 a month. That was the way the navy can get low-cost labor from educated people. But then they put me also in a good place. So, in return, I get a good place and they get free labor. I had my own office, air condition, ordering equipment for them on their navy base online. And it was amazing. It was my last five years. But all these places I had inmates that I could pour into and share the gospel with and help them get their GED and so on. 

So Ginger's visit every weekend, she was about ready to move back at home with her mom and her children because I had $9 million in fines. I had all those legal fees for over three years, legal fees. And I left her just enough money to live for a few months. And the companies that were the victims of the case got together and they put a whistleblower reward together. Coca-Cola, Tyson Foods, Procter & Gamble, Mount Air in Little Rock, Arkansas, and several companies put a whistleblower reward together and financed Ginger for turning me in and paid for her and my children for the eight years I was in prison. The people I stole from took care of my family for eight years. Miracle of God. Miracle of God.

So, she visits me every Friday evening and all day Saturday, all day Sunday with my children. I got closer with my kids and I can remember in June of '98, the weekend after I became a Christian. All I told her when I saw her on weekends, I blamed her, I blamed the ADM, I blamed the FBI, just pointing fingers at everybody. And she came in that June of '98 weekend, and I remember telling her, she'd never forget this date either, and I said Ginger, I've got no one to blame but myself. No one put a gun to my head to say be involved with price fixing. I could have left ADM easily when I had to cross the line and do something illegally.

I said I could have left the company. I said I got no one to blame but myself. And she couldn't believe it because she hadn't heard that for all those years. Before the years I wore a wire, I blamed her. During the years I was in court,  I blamed her. But she knew something was different then and life changed when I brought God into my life. 

We look back now and one of the most common questions Ginger and I get asked, what would have happened if I signed that six-month plea agreement? And Ginger agrees I would have never listened to Ian House. I would have never listened to Chuck Colson. And I would have said, I'm out of here in six months, I don't need the crutch, you guys. Because I thought it was just a crutch, you know, I had all this science background, blocking me from believing in Jesus. So I would have never listened to him with a six-month sentence. And God gave me exactly what I needed, which was eight and a half years in prison. I needed to be broken. I needed all those worldly distractions out of the way. And God gave me exactly what I needed. I needed to, I need to be completely broken, I needed to be at the end of myself to the point where I attempted suicide, to listen to somebody to hear the truth about Jesus and about God. 

So we thank God, I didn't sign that six-month plea agreement now even though she said back then murder was on the table even though divorce wasn't. (Speech garbled) went on national news and said 'murder was on the table'. She was so mad. But looking back now we thank God I didn't sign it. Because that's what it took for me to listen to these guys. Some people need to get a sledgehammer, and some people need to get them to themselves. And that was me. Before they hear the truth. 

Well, thank you for allowing me to share this journey, Daniel, and just a great honor to be able to share what God has taken a life from ashes to beauty. And, I'm here with your audience today as a Ph.D. Ivy League scientists that I have zero doubt God exists and Jesus is a son of God. And I don't have a doubt in my mind. And I don't live just on faith alone anymore. I've seen the evidence in my own life that God exists.


DW:  Yeah. That's so powerful. Praise God. Praise God for that story. That's incredible. Hey, Mark, would you share a little bit about what you're doing now with the t-factor and the faith and work movement and everything?


MW:  Yeah, absolutely. When I'm serving in prison, I'm helping these guys. So when I got out of prison, I wanted to stay on that path. I didn't want to fall back into that trap of greed. And I wanted to stay that servant leader because I learned how rewarding it was to serve. Prior to going to prison. I never helped anybody else. So, I never saw how rewarding that was to be a servant leader. I was a selfish leader in my 30s and I learned how rewarding it was at age 40 as a Christian to be a servant leader. So I wanted to continue that path when I got out a couple of decades ago with my family in my 40s and I'm 65 now. 

So when I got out about 17 years ago, a couple of Cornell professors bought biotech companies and pharmaceutical companies to visit me at prison, let me review their strategic plans, their patents. And they keep my mind active, you know. When I got out of prison, a couple of those companies offered me jobs the day I got out. So I joined a biotech company and a cancer research company, the day I got out. And with a Christian CEO, because I wanted to think long-term and not fall back into the trap that I was, that led me to prison. Show me your friends, I show your future. And I wanted to have, I wanted to kind of keep the life that I was building in prison, servant leadership. And so that Faith At Work movement really interested me. 

So, I joined a company with a Christian CEO. We prayed at our meeting, and prayed when we went to events, and I just loved it. It was just like continuing everything that I was doing in Bible study in prison, and I started like someone at the level like right out of college. And after a few promotions, I became the COO, the number two of that company, a cancer research company, and I was at that job for almost a decade. I'm still on their advisory board even still today. And now I work for Coca-Cola Consolidated. Coca-Cola Consolidated headquartered in Charlotte, a company in Atlanta, we're the largest bottler in America. We're a purpose-driven, faith-based, purpose-driven company. We're 23 years, a faith-based purpose-driven company for 23 years now. And our purpose statement is our purpose is “to honor God and all we do by serving others, pursuing excellence and growing profitably”. But think about that a publicly traded company with a purpose statement to honor God at all we do. And that's 23 years, we have 102 plant sites, headquarters in Charlotte. Chaplain in every plant, chaplaincy in every plant, over a hundred Bible studies and prayer groups. 

I mean, it's amazing. I mean, God has just given me a second chance to say, we'll take you from the biotech industry, now in your 60s, and you don't, we're yet to use all your biochemistry knowledge. I'm going to use a chance, full time in this faith at work movement. And that's our company environment. And then every couple of months, we do what's called t-factor events, T stands for transformation. And we get 350 to 400 attendees, we just had one 3 weeks ago in December 8, where we had 373 attendees, 99 or 27% of them were from 13 different countries. So, these are international groups that are all Christian leaders. And we're able to share what we're doing at Coca-Cola Consolidated. That integrating faith and work, you do it for God but it's also good for your business. 

I mean, your retention rates will improve, your absenteeism will go down, your engagement, where you do your engagement surveys with your employees, they will feel like they love having servant leaders, that supervisors are people that listen well and have empathy and navigate for them and help them develop. Who doesn't like a servant leader? And so I mean, we share that with other companies, we’re with Christian leaders, senior leaders, where they within their organizations start integrating faith and doing a God's way instead of their way, where they build this purpose-driven, faith-based culture. And it's a tremendous culture. It's a way to expose the world. 

Our t-factor’s objective is to transform workplace cultures around the world, for good, for God and for growth. That's our purpose. And we already have over 350 attendees for our next event already registered. So, we're gonna be close to 400. And again, people from around the world that we share that with. We're basically sharing what we do internally, we share it with the world where they can integrate faith in their work because people walk out and they say, if a publicly-traded company can do this, they can have chaplaincy and prayer groups and Bible studies, and a purpose statement for God and they do well, then they can do it in their organization. So, it helps them become more bold to do the same. 

It's just such a miracle to be doing what God's given me a second chance, but this time, God's way and not my way. And I just wake up every morning, I thank God that my family stayed with me, that my children loved me today more than they ever have. They're all older than I was, my three children than I was even when this case even happened. And and I thank God that my wife stayed with me married 43 years now. And then I'm employed in this whole faith in work movement because I don't think there's any better place for ministry personally than the workplace.


DW: Yeah, yeah. We spend a lot of time at work. 


MW:  Yes, that's where people spend the majority of their time. And people just think about the people that join your company that aren't yet believers that don't yet go to church, where they're going to hear about God? What a great place for them to hear about God! At work when they see prayer groups and chaplains. And I mean, what a great way to expose them to God.


DW:  So how many employees are at Coca-Cola Consolidated?


MW:  We have 17,000 employees, we're about $6 billion in revenue, 102 plant sites headquarters in Charlotte, North Carolina. So, we're a publicly traded 17,000 people company that has a purpose statement is our purpose to honor God. And, all we do by serving others pursue excellence and grow profitably. And God, God is at the center of our company. 

DW: How many of those employees are believers? 

MW: Well, you never know only God knows, you know, we estimate, probably a little bit less than half. But, I look at how many become believers each year. And we keep track of that especially since we're having a chaplain in every plant. And it's just amazing the number of people that become believers. I mean, just in a 12-month period, we had in a 12-month period recently, 644 they gave their life to Christ based on them sharing openly with our chaplain in our plant sites. We use Corporate Chaplains of America, Frank Harrison is the one that had the vision for this 23 years ago. He's our chairman and CEO, an amazing man. He had the vision for this 23 years ago, he put one chaplain in that one plant in Nashville. Now we have a chaplain in every plant, and he's transformed our company. He fell 23 years ago, he's a steward, as chairman and CEO, it's God's, not me. He's a steward of God's resources. And he started doing it God's way. And now, it's throughout our whole company, and is making a huge impact.


DW:  That's so good. That's so good. So, speaking to business leaders and owners out there who really want to leverage their influence in their business, for God's kingdom, and make a difference at work. What would you say to them? What are some key pieces of advice?


MW:  Well, I always say to them the following - that there's no better place for work for ministry than in the workplace. That would, you know, when we go to church on Sunday, and they are fed and they are nurtured, be equipped. What we don't want to do is on Monday morning, God does not want us to turn that switch off on Monday morning. I've even seen a book by Doug Spade that he calls That Monday Morning Atheists. It's a Christian who turns this switch off on Monday morning, and turns it back on Sunday the following week when he's back at church. We don't want that. God doesn't want that. Think about Colossians 3:23. Colossians 3:23 is the following: whatever you do, do it with all your heart, like you're working for the Lord, and not for man. So, that means no matter if you're in an Uber car, you're at home, you're in a grocery store, you're at work, no matter where you're at. God wants us to seamlessly integrate our faith and our work. But I would tell that business leaders that are on this call, there's no better place to integrate faith in their work. It's in the scripture, God wants you to. And what a great place to transform your company where people feel they can bring their whole self to work.


DW:  That's good. That's very helpful. Thank you. And then I also wanted to ask you, you know, you have a really strong and powerful story of being addicted to materialism, and greed and an ego. And then God transforming your heart and now, you know, living as a servant leader, can you talk about that? And just like, you know, somebody who may not realize that they're in that because you don't really realize that you're that way until you come out? Maybe, but can you maybe speak to that a little bit?


MW: Yeah, I would say this, that, and I see lots of Mark Whitacres out there and I love to reach the Mark Whitacres, the ones that are obsessed with materialism, and they're caught up in the world and their whole world is their business card or their title and, and I love to disciple guys like them because that was me in my 20s and 30s. And I will say this, that with someone that's obsessed with that and they start seeing the rewards how rewarding it is to serve others, just like I did. It took me going to prison to realize that but when someone is so caught up in themselves, a selfish leader basically, when they see how rewarding it is to serve others, they will be on fire to serve. Those are great people to also reach. And I thank God and I just highly recommend, never give up on those people. Think about it. My parents prayed for me my whole life. My wife prayed for me for 10 years. And I thank God they did not give up on me. I thank God they didn't.


DW:  So Mark, if you could be remembered for one thing, what would it be?


MW: I would want to be remembered, if I can be remembered for one thing would be to that a godly man, a man that serves God. Second Corinthians 5:20 clearly says is, as believers, we are ambassadors for Christ. So as a believer, Second Corinthians 5:20 says that we're an ambassador. The only question is, how effective are we? Are we going to be up in the stands, watching the game? Are we going to be in the field in the middle of the game and be engaged? And I would like to be remembered as an engaged ambassador for Christ. In the game, every day, until I joined Jesus in heaven. 

DW: Yeah, Amen. Well done, thou good and faithful servant.


DW:  So Mark, before we jump into the mentor minute and round out this episode, is there anything else that you can think of maybe a key piece of advice or, or, or an action step that we can take to move towards this?


MW: Well, the only thing that really impacted me, I kind of started in 98, when I became a Christian 25 years ago, pray, what's the purpose of my life? And I wanted to be, you know, what, biblically, what would God give me is the purpose of my life. And I really feel strongly this, where God has led me and I'd love for your listeners to think about where God's leading and they had to pray through that themselves for God to give them clarity, and God to give them wisdom. But God gave me the 'why' that I do what I do. In the Second Corinthians 5:20, as an ambassador, that's what I do, I'm an ambassador for Jesus, an ambassador for God. That's the 'why'. And then how you do it. God has given me scripture, Matthew 28:19, and Second Timothy 2:2, that how you become the effective ambassador, in the gate, engaged in the field is to evangelism and discipleship. Plant seeds, lots of times to actions, not words, plant seeds, for those who don't know God yet, which is Matthew 2019. Go make disciples of all nations, and then disciple important to ones that know God and help them grow in their faith. That's Second Timothy 2:2 where Paul equipped Timothy and told Timothy, go share with others what he learned from Paul. And so, I believe evangelism and discipleship, Matthew 28:19 and Second Timothy 2:2 are the purposes of our lives. I couldn't agree more.


DW: I love it. All right. So who is the most influential person that you know, and how have they impacted you?


MW:  For me, the most influential person that I know would, would be Chuck Colson. Just had a tremendous impact on my life was like a father to me. Passed April 2012, April 21, 2012, over a decade ago, and I miss him greatly, had a huge impact on my life. I can remember even my quiet time, when I got out, I was busy again and had quiet time, but it was little less than I had in prison. And I told Chuck, now busy again, executive at a biotech industry, definitely having quiet time and following God, but not as much time as I had. And I remember him quoting and he said, Mark, I want to go to Martin Luther quote, in this quote, this would have been in the early 2000s. And he said, Mark, he said, here's Martin Luther's quote, "I have so much to do today. There's no way I can get it all done. Therefore, I'm going to pray for three hours, because that's the only way God can accomplish it." So in other words, when you got so much to do, and you're busy, you got to pray more, because that's the only way God can accomplish all those, all those tasks. So don't pray less. pray more.


DW:  Yeah, that's, that's very powerful. All right. And then what book or podcast would you recommend, or maybe has changed your life?  

MW: Well, one book that definitely changed my life early on was the book by Don Bierle Surprised By Faith by the scientists that studied, was trying to prove that God did not exist and it proved to him that God does exist and Jesus Son of God, by Dr. Don Bierle, Surprised By Faith. And another book that's been a great impact for me, a couple of books recently, Kim Boa, Life In The Presence Of God by Ken Boa. That came out 2017. That book I've read twice since then that's had a big impact on me in terms of how I become more spirit-led in all I do. Life In The Presence Of God by Ken Boa. And another one that I'm kind of really enjoying is Chad Byrd’s “Limping with God”. And it's about Jacob, and all the flaws of Jacob and how God still uses him. And even to the point where you know, Chad Byrd says, don't trust a person without a limb, that, that, you know, we grow from these. We grow from these mistakes that we make. And that book just came out a few months ago. It's been an excellent book to limping, living with God by Chad Byrd.


DW:  What is the greatest lesson you have learned about leadership?


MW:  Greatest lesson I've learned about leadership. And it's been the last bit in the last few years is really to a different level of listening, listen well, and have empathy. Matter of fact, our training that we do with Coca-cola Consolidated now is the word called LEADS. And L is for Listen, E is for empathy. A is for advocate, D is for develop, and S is for self-reflection, but especially that, that listen, and empathy. When would employee see that you really listen, and you care about them as a person and their family and their life, not just the tasks that they're accomplishing, and have empathy for them? It makes a huge difference when you care. It's amazing how it changes, how it transforms your culture, where they see that your leadership really listens. And that's empathy.


DW:  All right, Mark, last question for you. How can we be praying for you and your family?


MW:  Well, 65 now, my wife, 64. She's heavily involved in ministry too, and still leads a couple of women's groups that speak also all around the country. And I will say this, that I just pray that God will use us, we want to finish strong, both Ginger and I. We feel so blessed about taking our life from ashes to beauty, and just pray that God will use us until we join him in heaven. We want to finish strong. And every day we want God to put people on our path that we can impact, nonbelievers that we can plant seeds, and believers that we can help grow in their faith. And we just want to do that too until we join Jesus in heaven.


DW: Mark, can I pray for you now? 

MW: Yes, please. 

DW: God, I thank you and praise you for Mark and Ginger and just how you've redeemed them from ashes.  Lord, we just marvel at your goodness, your second chances, your pursuit of us, even when we are running from you, rejecting you, and turning away from you, God, I pray that you continue to allow them to be fruitful and that you would get all the glory from their story in their life in ministry. I thank you for them. And I thank you for this time. And I pray that You would help us to learn and grow from this. In Christ's name, I pray.


MW:  Amen. Amen. Thank you, Daniel.


DW:  Mark, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. It was amazing and just miraculous. The end. 


DW: Thank you guys for listening to another episode of The Kingdom Investor Podcast. We will catch you next time.



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