Ep.46 Living with Loss + Sallyjo Cook

Sallyjo Cook shares her story of losing her husband, mother, and father to cancer, all within several years, and how loneliness tries to pervade our lives when walking through the grief of loss. She not only bravely shares her story, but also speaks about what has helped her through these years, what has hurt & helped most from friends, and what she knows to be true about God.

If you or a close friend are walking a grief journey, Sally’s story will encourage and inspire you to keep fighting for your friendships and clinging to the Lord, even as the waves of loneliness come.

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Transcript

Kimber: 0:09

Hey friends. Welcome to the, your sister Kimber podcast. My name is Kimber Gilbert, and I'm really glad you're here. I believe the conversation we're having today is such an important one. My friend, Sally Jo cook was so generous in coming on the podcast to share with us, her story of losing her incredible husband to cancer about five years ago. Today, we're talking about the loneliness that she experienced during that time. How her relationship with God was impacted and how her friendships felt the strain of this incredibly difficult season. I truly hope her wisdom helps you learn to love your friends, walking a hard road, better. And to help you grow authentic community and friendships in your life that ultimately honor God and draw you closer to Jesus. I really wish that Sally could share her story with us over coffee today, but this is the next best thing. I'm so glad you here, friend. Let's get started. Sally. Hello. Hi, Kimber. How are you? I'm good. I was joking with you before we started recording that you're gonna, I'm gonna have to like stay awake to keep up with your wit tonight because you're, you're really quick and it's kind of late for me. Maybe it's late for you too. Are you a morning person or an eight owl?

Sally: 1:29

I am a morning person, but just so you know, that's like a lot of pressure you just laid there Like now your audience is gonna be like, what is she talking about? That lady's kind of thick as a brick. I don't know what she meant.

Kimber: 1:44

Oh, no way. No way. I love it. Well, friends listening, today I get to talk with Sally. you are such a special person in my story. and I feel like you were really foundational to when we first moved here. Like we moved to Alaska back in 2014 and we met then through some mutual friends and we had like driven into Alaska mid-April, I think, and it was Easter and we came to your church. Yeah. And it was like one of our first Sundays, in Alaska and it was Easter and um, I'll never forget. Tom was like, nice to meet you Sean. And in like the next breath, he invited us over for Easter dinner at your house, Even though he like did not know you at all, And I just remember I was standing there, I don't know where you were, but I was standing there and I was like, assuming Sean would be like, okay, thanks, but no, we're good. But he was like, okay, And I was just like, oh, okay. Like we're doing this, we're going over to a stranger's house for, for Easter dinner. But it was so good and you guys really just like became like a HomeAway for home for us, I would say. And it was just really, it was really wonderful. So, thank you for your hospitality then and um, I'm just really honored that we could talk today. So thanks for chatting with me.

Sally: 3:08

Yeah. Well, on that regard. what is just so clear to me is, uh, already with the Kleenex,

Kimber: 3:15

what we knew was gonna happen,

Sally: 3:19

you know, God is so forward thinking and, you know, we don't know what we need. Yeah. And you know, maybe that was a moment where you felt welcomed and you didn't have to spend Easter alone. But the truth of the matter is when everything blew up, I mean, Kimber, let me just do a quick little thumbnail list of how you blessed my life. One, you helped me finish out my school year, which was huge. Yeah. And you helped me. Well, frankly, you cleaned up my dog duty in the yard. Yes. Like, oh my

Kimber: 3:56

gosh. That's right. I forgot about that.

Sally: 3:59

Let me tell you another thing you did. Mm-hmm. You, you stepped in and you asked Thomas what you could do for his mom because it was Mother's Day. Mm-hmm. And obviously he couldn't do anything for her. And I don't know, it was just an amazing example of just creative helpfulness. Mm-hmm. And I, I think that really worked out well because you did know us. Mm-hmm. You'd spent time hearing us and dirt biking with us and doing things and, you know, I think it's really hard to help somebody if you don't know them. Yeah. I mean, you could be available and you could say good words, but when you know somebody, you can go right to the heart of what their gaps are. Yeah. And. and you guys did that and you were just little tiny children, You were just little babies and you figured out how to do that. And that has to be the Holy Spirit. It has to be. Yeah, it has to be. because I feel

Kimber: 4:56

like a lot of the time I, in these moments where it just feels like really overwhelming and you're like, you know, in tragedy, you're like, how do I love this person? Well, it just feels like, it feels overwhelming to me a lot of times. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what matters. I don't know. You know, you don't know. And, um, because you're not in it, right. But yeah, I think you're right that when we do have the relationship established with the person, we. know what those needs are, maybe more, or at least be in a place where we can ask Yeah. Um, and be able to step in. And it's funny you say like those things, I don't remember like a lot of that. And so I think that's just a reminder too to us that like, often I don't think we know in the moment what blesses someone, but God uses it. Right. Yeah. And, um, you know, that's what matters at the end of the day, so. Yep. Yep. Well that's really sweet. Thanks for sharing that friend. You know, I were joking about the tissues, but like, I knew that this was gonna be a harder conversation, but it was one that I really wanted to have, in this series on loneliness because I just feel like we. you know, we talk about, oh, like I've experienced loneliness in my friendships, through a friendship breakup, or a move across the country or something like that. And, those things are real and like they impact us for sure. But, today, I wanna talk with you about loneliness through loss. And specifically you lost your husband, um, was it five or six years ago? Five. Yeah. Yeah. Five. And, man, that to me, I think that's probably one of the weightiest things in the world. Well,

Sally: 6:37

I to walk through. I think when, uh, when somebody does lose their spouse, and let's face it, it's going to be more common that, men die sooner. Mm-hmm. And so you know, a lot of times it's a woman and she's having to deal with this and, I think what happens is you lose your past because all of those little inside things, those inside jokes, those inside moments that you share, you can't, recreate them with anybody else. And so they kind of get fuzzy. They kind of get, dark and when you lose your spouse like that, you lose your future too. Mm-hmm. because we are starting to talk about retirement and we are, you know, what, what's the new life that we're going to, carve out? You're always dreaming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, so it's, you know, obviously you, you lose your best friend, but you lose more than that. You lose your past and you lose your future. And, golly, it's. you're faced with a choice that you're not equipped at that moment to make. And that is, am I going to stay in the absolutely honest, truthful place that this is not fair and it's not right, and it's terrible. Are you gonna stay there or are you going to, I don't even know what to put there. Are you not, are you not gonna stay there? And, everybody has to come to the point where they, they have to de decide, am I gonna stay there or am I going to start seeking and searching for the answer to the fact that that dance is over? Hmm. And I don't think God wants us living lives without song and dance and comfort. Yeah. And, uh, I, I, I feel like my story isn't really complete that I lost Thomas. I mm-hmm. I, I think when I was, I'd only been married a year and my sister, it was never really clear if she committed suicide or if she was murdered. I think the answer to that is somewhere in the middle. Hmm mm-hmm. Um, and so the man that was, I think, responsible for her death got to go on with his life. Mm. And my parents were devastated. And I was devastated. And because it was such a, ugly, yeah. Unsure. Mysterious, angry, violent thing. I couldn't talk about it. Mm. and it really was just devastating. So that was kind of my first, real look at loss and death. And I, I absolutely know that we, I did not do it right. Mm-hmm. Something about my parents did do it right, because they clung to each other. Mm-hmm. And somehow they came out stronger and better for it. but then years later, you know, Thomas was diagnosed as having cancer in February. Mm-hmm. and, you know, you have to hope. Mm-hmm. you know, there's not any 100% anything. There's no guarantee of a hundred percent cure or there's not. There's not even a guarantee of a hundred percent this is going to be your death. Like, yes. You don't know. Yes. So we marched on and we made plans, and by June he was in hospice and there was so many, amazing blessings. As I look back. Providence Hospital, gifted us with what, a month and a half of, of hospice care, right. In their facility. It was a little apartment and we had 24 hour nurse help. I, I can't even, I, I don't even know who else has had something like that. It was so amazing. Even though it felt horrible, it felt like a terrible thing. We just don't know what blessings are until we can get past things and take inventory. So he was diagnosed in February and he died in June and he died just, um, just six days before our 30th wedding anniversary. And I don't, what is a number? I don't know. That doesn't really matter, but it, it's, it just seemed like, uh, right,

Kimber: 11:01

it what is, what wasn't, it was significant stuff. Yeah. It wasn't

Sally: 11:04

long enough. And, by the beginning of July, which was just two weeks later, my mom who. was under a tremendous amount of pressure and she, she just loved Thomas so dearly. Mm-hmm. I mean, I was the child that she had cuz God made that choice. Hmm. But Thomas was the one that she chose Mm-hmm. And that was such a beautiful, sweet relationship. And as time has gone by, I, I have found little things that Thomas didn't even share with me of financial ways that he helped my mom and dad and he kind of stopped telling me that he was financially helping them because it just

Kimber: 11:42

made me so mad. Right. that's a different relationship, mom. Yes. And kid versus in lie. Yeah. Yeah.

Sally: 11:50

and so by July and August we knew she had brain cancer and I had to close her business and. I don't know, Kimber, it's like I didn't have enough time to, to say goodbye to Thomas before I had to deal with this next thing. and so she passed in February and it was very peaceful and she was well taken care of, and she died here at home. But there were some things about my mom that just weren't unresolved. Hmm. And I was, it is very hard to have someone die that you're mad at. Oh, yeah. Because where does that go? You know? Yes.

Kimber: 12:29

What do you think with

Sally: 12:30

it? Yeah. Right. and then by the next, so that was February. That was our second February. And then, um, by May. and we found out that my dad had cancer too. Mm-hmm. and I got to have him till the next February. So. Mm. I wanna be on the record as saying I hate February. I

Kimber: 12:51

hate February, man, I got to talk to a friend who lost her dad in February recently, and she, also got divorced in February. Like, yeah, I think we just chalked February up as a loss. I

Sally: 13:05

don't, maybe, maybe it's God's gift that that's the shorty month, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, I don't know, I just, um, I just survived that month every year. Yeah. So that is, um,

Kimber: 13:17

that is, it was a reveal after ordeal, after ordeal for a bit there. Yeah. Yeah.

Sally: 13:22

But I wanna tell you about, because you brought up Easter. This is in my mind just a really. Beautiful thing that happened. two Easters after the dust kind of settled. Well, the first Easter after the dust settled, so to speak, I was sitting in my crying chair. So that's another piece of advice I have for people. Like, keep Kleenex close, cuz you just don't know Yeah. When that's gonna happen. Every chair,

Kimber: 13:49

every

13:50

room.

Sally: 13:51

Yeah. And you know, I just didn't wanna be crying everywhere. Hmm. It was sort of like, you know, like the timeout chair, the crying chair, like, I need to cry. I'm gonna do it right there so it's not spilling all over everywhere. Oh man, I love that. So I'm sitting in my crying chair and it's Easter and my children are not with me. And that feels a little estranged. And of course, families, you know, I'm not in the middle of a tragedy anymore. Hmm. Right. So I didn't have any Easter, invitations. Mm-hmm. Because you should be with your kids on Easter, so I'm sure everybody just assumed, and it just didn't work out that way. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I'm like, great, here I am all alone on Easter and oh my word. It was a pity party for the ages. Mm-hmm. I wept. Oh, I wept till like my face hurt. and when I was completely out of energy and just spent Kimber, I heard the Holy Spirit say to me, It was just so clear. The Holy Spirit said, I know. Hmm. I know this is terrible. Mm-hmm. and it was such a affirmation to me that I'm not crazy. Yeah. This is terrible. Yeah. This is not the way it's supposed to be. Mm-hmm. and then I, I took a deep breath and then he, he didn't stop with that. He is such a careful counselor. Hmm. Yeah. So he said, now I need you to go deliver Easter baskets. What?

Kimber: 15:27

I'm in the middle of a pity party. Excuse me.

Sally: 15:31

And it's, it's, you know, one o'clock on Easter afternoon. Yeah. Who has equipment? We

Kimber: 15:38

don't have baskets sitting around with what is the fake grass stuff? like, yeah.

Sally: 15:43

Well, let me tell you what I did. Like it was almost,

Kimber: 15:47

I'm sure you whipped something up. You're like

Sally: 15:49

that. Well, I don't know, but. My husband and my father loved pancakes, Uhhuh, And they left like 15 pounds of pancake mix and I'm looking at that and I Googled how to make sugar cookies outta pancake mix. Okay. That's a thing. Oh, interesting. Super duper easy.

Kimber: 16:11

And I suppose that makes sense. I mean it has what, just like flour and sugar? Yeah. I mean,

Sally: 16:16

yeah. Yeah. So in like 20 minutes I had, Easter, cookies in the oven and I don't know why, but I had, you know, colored frosting and I had, I'm like, here's what I'm saying. Yes, right, Yeah. But he doesn't provide, like he did with the Israelites, with manna coming down outta the heaven. He provided in such a way as I have to say, you've been up to this for a while. you were planning this and of course he doesn't plan our heartache, but he plans right. Our escape route. He plans, I'm, I'm got a new song for you. Hmm. You know, I'm sorry that the old song is canceled, but here is a new song and I'm like, where am I gonna get Easter baskets? I opened up my Tupperware drawer mm-hmm. And I had a plethora of little Tupperwares with no lids and lids with no Tupperware That is a horrible situation. Good job. So I, I just, I got out colored tissue paper and wrapped it with cellophane so it's all protected. And I just packed this with, I had gotten Easter candy that I was gonna do something with and I didn't, so I made Easter baskets and I had 12 of them. I packed them up and I put'em in the car and I hit the garage door opener and I said, Now what? Right. I mean, I've got these things ready. I don't what, what too? Yeah. Oh, and that other thing is, it was in the middle of Covid.

Kimber: 17:47

That's

Sally: 17:48

right. Oh, so we weren't supposed to see anybody. Right. So I probably did an illegal thing by, I just started out in Peter's Creek. Mm-hmm. And I went to a house of a dear friend. I rang the doorbell, put the Easter basket on the porch, and I split mm-hmm. And of course, I'm sure she could see me you know, looking out the window because I'm not really very fast But, um, and then I just got in the car and started it up and What's the next nearest friend? Mm-hmm. And I ended up all the way in East Anchorage, at my daughter's mother-in-law and father-in-law's house. And I dropped off my last Easter basket and it was probably seven o'clock at night. Mm. and Easter was taken care of, and I I was through it. Yeah, you got through it. I, I I was done. Yeah.

Kimber: 18:41

In that moment. I'm sure it just felt like moving from okay, like what's next? What's next? Like, okay, I'm being obedient, like I'm getting through this time. what do you think the Lord was teaching you in that moment? Do you think there was anything, or was it just like a gift of like, Hey, I'm gonna

Sally: 18:58

get you through this day? I think it was a gift. Hmm. Of I am big enough to handle your day. Hmm. And I did a, I did a lot of journal writing and you know, as I look back on it, some of it's like, what in the world did that mean? I don't know. But some of it's kind of interesting. And, and one thing was, I was pouring my heart out in this one journal that, you know, God, why? I, I want good things. Mm-hmm. I wanted a future. I wanted Yep. I wanted a, a companion. I wanted someone to share all this stuff with me. I wanted to be a grandparent with Yeah. With the, with someone to share that. Yeah. And I wanted to retire and I wanted to do all these things and, and it was good. They were

Kimber: 19:44

all good things, good desires. Yes.

Sally: 19:46

And, and the answer that I got that I wrote down again, the Holy Spirit's voice is just so particular. It's got a, it's got a sound and a feel to it. That's not like anything else. Mm-hmm. And he said, I know. Mm-hmm. And he's, you know, that's, that's a pattern. He says, I know, I know, but I have this new thing for you. And I retorted, like, I don't want the new thing, I don't want the new thing. Yeah. The new thing is not as good as the old thing. Yeah. But I've, I've come to the point where just the other day, Kimber, I was thinking, you know, cuz you spend a lot of time just wishing your people could be back. Yeah. Not even realizing that you're wishing that. Hmm. And then when you kind of come out of the river, you're like, oh, well that was silly, but, you know, whatever. Mm-hmm. I, I was in that river eat and all of a sudden I thought if my people came back, oh my gosh, I have changed so much of where everybody, I don't know that I have enough places for everybody to

Kimber: 20:45

be Oh

Sally: 20:47

yeah. And, and I kind of laughed and I thought, well that would kind of be cruel for me to say, oh hey, uh, you guys, you've been in heaven for a while, but could you come on back here? Cause that's what I prefer. Mm-hmm. like, no. And it, it, for the first time, it dawned on me that I'm okay. That they're never gonna come back. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna go to them. Yeah. you know, Hmm. That was kind of a, a corner that I turned. Hmm. was

Kimber: 21:15

it just time do you think? Or what helped you turn that, do you think?

Sally: 21:19

I think definitely time. Definitely. just stopping to watch and take inventory of all the things. Uh, I'll, I'll use the metaphor, sprinkles that God had in place so that I could be okay. Hmm. Yeah. Um, and another thing I realized is he had his hands full. Cuz I am a mess. I, I, wow. I take constant affirmation. Mm-hmm. I am a needy, insecure absolute mess. when I first came to my parents' house after mom and dad had passed, and there was just so many things to deal with. There was a family picture on the dining room table. Mm-hmm. of when I was in the seventh grade, my sister was a senior in high school, and there was my mom and dad, who at the time I thought were really old mm-hmm. but they were probably like barely, they're like, barely 40. And like, yeah. Oh my word. Ugh. Um, and all of a sudden I just had this panic attack, like, there we are. That was my family. That's what I see myself as. Hmm. And nobody's left. It's just me. Yeah. And, my friend Bill, who you know Yeah. Um, I just started crying and Bill doesn't always know what to do when I cry. And he's like, uh, you okay? And I

Kimber: 22:45

said, bill, if you're like hyperventilating,

Sally: 22:49

Bill, all my people are gone. And he's not a sports person, but Holy Spirit gave him a sports, a sports ball metaphor. Yes. He took his big finger and he tapped on my seventh grade face and he said, yeah, but that one's still in the game. And he's got more stuff for that one to do. Hmm. And when you're going through that tragedy, you just need to be reminded of the good things. But, but the tricky thing is if someone comes in who doesn't really know Yeah. They start saying, oh, oh, uh, you're so lucky to have this. Really? I'm lucky that my life is blown apart and I have that stupid thing that's not lucky. Right. So I don't know what the answer is to help people. Say what's right, but maybe sometimes not saying anything Yeah. Is the best thing.

Kimber: 23:43

Hmm. That's something that yeah, I would love to talk more about because it probably feels, I know it feels to me, and I would think probably to other people you know, it feels like such an elephant in the room. Almost. Like, I wanna like be there for you. I wanna like care for your heart as my friend. Well, through Yeah. Your loss. But I know that like, grief looks different for everyone, right? Yeah. and it's gonna look different one day from what it looks like the next day. And so I know that I can't possibly predict that. Yeah. So it's like, you know, but I wanna honor you well, and I don't wanna cause more hurt. So like, walking that line feels, like, such an overwhelming task, And, I don't know, like from, you know, your side of being the one who probably sensed, friends around you trying to walk that line. Well, yeah. Like what were some things that seemed helpful? Some things that weren't like, you can only speak from your experience. Right. And so, right, right. It depends. But, um, I would love to hear your perspective on that. Like, having walked through not only a really heavy season, but like, it was long. Right? It was a long season of loss. what felt, what felt helpful? What didn't feel as loving to you in that time?

Sally: 25:10

Well, am I allowed to say a spicy word here?

Kimber: 25:13

You could say a spicy word,

Sally: 25:15

Okay. Okay. just days after Thomas passed, one of his, basketball coaches came by to offer his condolences. And, I knew him of course, and I knew that Thomas loved him. but it wasn't me with the connection with him. Mm-hmm. right. And. so two things on our list. Go, go where it is uncomfortable. Go to the funeral, stay longer, sign the book, shake the hand. It's not comfortable, it's not pleasant, but it's so good. It's so important.

Kimber: 25:50

why did it feel important to you? What was it that like, felt important about that lingering

Sally: 25:55

particularly? Um, it was an affirmation that, you know, in Thomas's funeral, the people that came, it was important because it made his life real to me. Hmm. Like, I didn't just make up that he was a good person.

Kimber: 26:11

Yeah, there

Sally: 26:13

were people at his funeral that I didn't even know so many. Yeah. Which means, which means Kimber that out there somewhere, and I may never know these, but just knowing that out there somewhere is somebody that could tell me something about Thomas that I didn't know. Hmm. And it would be like, I got to be

Kimber: 26:35

with it, kid. There's more.

Sally: 26:37

More. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Mm. Because one thing was I could not throw away and I still don't, and I've given myself permission to do this weird thing. I do not get rid of anything that Thomas ever wrote, like anything. That's his handwriting. It goes in a box. Yeah. And I don't know if that will always be important to me, but because he'll never write anything again. For some reason that just registered in my head, he'll never write anything again. So those strangers that came to his funeral, Hmm. Give me hope that someday I might run into a person at a grocery store or somewhere and they might figure out who I am, and they might tell me something that I didn't know about Thomas. And then I will get to see'em again for the first time a little bit. Yeah. Now, I also know that your audience may be waiting for the spicy word.

Kimber: 27:28

Yes, we are Yes, because I haven't gotten to that part yet. Yeah. Right. So yes, back to our basketball coach friend. So

Sally: 27:35

he, kind of waved at me if I would please come, you know, out the door. And it was a sunny day and so I

Kimber: 27:42

followed him when Thomas was in hospice. Yeah. Is that right? This

Sally: 27:44

is right after he passed. After he passed. Okay. It might have even been before his funeral actually. Okay. I mean, it was really fresh and he came, I didn't tell him that Thomas died because you can't just tell everybody, but somehow he knew. Right. What does that tell you? That tells you that people are noticing Yeah. That Thomas is gone.

Kimber: 28:04

Someone told him because

Sally: 28:05

someone knew he would care. Yes. Yes. And he walked me out to the, front deck and, and the door was closed and he said, I just need to tell you this so that, so that it's not so shocking. And you're a little bit ready and you won't be completely ready, but. People are gonna say some stupid shit to you. Oh, And that was really helpful to me because it gave me a little bit of a project I could see in a person's body language. I could see in a person's, the facial expression that they felt they needed to say something and they didn't know what to say. And I kind of took it on as my mission to help people not say stupid. Oh, yeah. And there was one lady at work, I, and I every time she saw me in the hallway, she would dip her head sideways and go, oh, oh my goodness. No. don't do that. People, and there wasn't, you know, I tried to help. Yeah. Um, so to get past that awkward thing, because I live in the awkward thing, so, so the least I could do is help other people not be awkward.

Kimber: 29:10

You're so generous.

Sally: 29:11

Oh my goodness. There's nothing I could do about that lady. Right. you know, you see her in the hallway and say, stop, stop, stop, stop. Don't do that thing you're about to do. I know you're gonna do it. Oh,

Kimber: 29:21

you just yell at her. Look away. Look away.

Sally: 29:24

Look away. Oh,

Kimber: 29:27

yeah, yeah. So like, it's more like acknowledging it.

Sally: 29:31

Yes.

Kimber: 29:32

that's such like, so counter, I feel like what seems like our gut wants to do, but that's the brave thing in that,

Sally: 29:41

in that moment. And maybe here's another little piece of advice, when I have run into people, I, I talked to a lady on the phone just the other day, don't even see her face. All I know is, you know, her first name, but she told me that she just had to, turn her husband's life support system off last Tuesday. And, I said, tell me something about him. Yeah. And she told me some things about him, and some were good and some were not good. But it took the pressure off me to say, oh, I'm so sorry. Something. I'm so sorry. I know what you're feeling. No, even though I've been there, I don't really know what she's feeling. And she's a complete stranger. Right. So I, you know, maybe just inviting people to do the talking. Yeah. Now if you're, you know, if you're talking to a really shy person, just say when you're ready, I would love to hear some things about. You know, to, to give someone permission to talk about something hard and sad and important and good, I think is a good rule of thumb.

Kimber: 30:41

Yeah. I love that idea. Give them like, not that they need the permission, but like inviting it. Yes. Like into your relation, like your friendship being like, yeah, this is a space where we can like sit in. Conversation that feels hard to talk about, you know, like, yeah, we can acknowledge it's awkward, but like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit here and listen. You know,

Sally: 31:05

like, and, and maybe it wraps back to, remember I was saying how, you know, there's so many little private moments that are just lost now. So maybe inviting somebody to, you know, tell me a story about your mom that's on your mind. Yeah. Like, I can't be your mom for you, but maybe I can be that place where you get to relive that

Kimber: 31:25

for a minute. Yeah. Because you don't share it with the person you lost anymore. Yeah. So you're like, yeah. Who do I share it with? Well, if someone invites you to share it. Yeah. Yeah. I can see how that would seem like a gift.

Sally: 31:38

Yeah.

Kimber: 31:39

Absolutely. Hmm. I love that. as we're talking about, like the friendships a little bit, that you had. Some of that seems more, like acquaintances, but as we're like thinking about your closer friendships, like as you walked through the loss of Tom, of your mom and your dad over those years, how do you feel like that time impacted your friendships? Like your closer friendships, like for good or for bad? what did you see kind of shift or change or develop in that time with your friends?

Sally: 32:15

Well, I will tell you, there were some that peeled away. Yeah. And that was very shocking. Hmm. you know, I have a lot of good friends and to just have a friend just absolutely turn around and walk away because it's too hard and now they're not your friend anymore. Yeah. To me that almost. makes me more bitter than just death itself. Mm-hmm. Um, cuz the few friendships that I'm talking about that are, are now over because it was too hard. That would make me bitter. Yeah. And, and so I've had to, to deal with that. In fact, we had one friend who kind of dealt with his sadness, uh, with drugs. Hmm. And he came and, you know, now I'm alone in my house. Right. You know, and. He came at a time when I wasn't there because he, you know, he would ha was a close enough friend that he had even lived with us. Right. And, and he just, he robbed us. Mm-hmm. And my dad was still with me and he's like, just let the stuff go. It doesn't matter. I don't want that bitterness in your life. You, you've got to not be bitter. Which is great advice, but

Kimber: 33:30

it's hard to live out. Yes. Hard to live out. Yeah. Yes.

Sally: 33:33

Yeah. So what I did with my bitterness on that account was another friend, he just volunteered his time. He drove me around Anchorage several evenings after school and we just collected up all that stuff from the pawn shops. Right. And, I think what that was because I didn't need that stuff back. In fact, when I got it all back, I went. Now, why did I do that? you're

Kimber: 33:56

like, I kind of wanna take

Sally: 33:58

it back to the paw shop, maybe I'll take it back and get my 40 bucks. But what that was, was sort of my middle finger to, Satan and everything accusatory and everything angry, and said, no, you are not going to make me bitter. I am not a victim. I, I'm gonna get my crap back. Mm-hmm. And so, I don't know. Every, every friend that I have had that has, you know, is still a good friend to me, just poured in something different. because they knew me from a different angle and, and cherish your friendships and make them while you don't need them, if that makes sense. Yeah. because when my life fell apart, the Hummingbird Army activated mm-hmm. And why I had gone to the same church for, well, since I was 16 years old. Yeah. And I had been a kid, and then I had been a young woman, and then I had been, you know, a new mother and then I, in this church. And not everybody can do that. Especially like the crazy military people that go, I know. Hopping around all the time.

Kimber: 35:03

You make it a challenge. But, but I love that advice. Make the friends before you need them. Yeah. Cause you're gonna need'em. Yeah. You're gonna need'em. And it's when your life feels like it's imploding, that's not the time you're ready to pour into friendships. Right. That's when you need people to pour into you. But if we don't have'em built

Sally: 35:22

Yeah, yeah,

Kimber: 35:23

yeah. It's gonna feel way more isolating

Sally: 35:25

and, and who isolates us. Satan. Right. Satan wants us to be all alone and feel like everything's fine and then, I don't know, maybe I'm being dramatic, but I think he gets a kick out of it when we're not. Oh, yeah, I think so. So, mm-hmm. and you just gotta listen to that voice if it's, if there's anything accusatory mm-hmm. like, like loneliness is a wave and it comes over you mm-hmm. and, and it just stops, you know, depending on how hard the wave is, it, it can stop just short of choking you. Hmm. But you have to just claim out what you know. I know that this is not from God because this is crushing me and God does not crush us. Hmm. And all I gotta do is just hold on and, you know, maybe get a good night's rest. Mm-hmm. or, or you know, watch a silly TV show. Yeah. Or. Fill the moment with something that's then I, that's not gonna become a problem itself. Yeah. So I'm not talking about a fifth of vodka. Right. Don't do that. Right, right. That'll become its own problem. Mm-hmm. but, but loneliness. You just don't know when it's coming. You don't know how long it's gonna stay. Mm-hmm. you, it's almost like, I don't know, did you ever take, uh, birthing classes?

Kimber: 36:38

I did. Online. It was, you know, covid again, but it's not the same. You don't go sit on the ball and huff or whatever. But I get the gist of the,

Sally: 36:47

you just breathe. You just breathe. Breathe and say true words. Breathe and say true words until, until it passes. And, it's like crying. Yeah. You will not have strength to cry forever. Forever.

Kimber: 37:02

mm. You say, I love that, like, uh, breathe and say true words. Like where do you think those true words come from for you

Sally: 37:10

in that moment? you know what, there has been times, when all of this happened, I absolutely lost the ability to pray. Mm-hmm. I couldn't pray. I would sit down and my mind just like wouldn't pray. Mm-hmm. And I thought maybe that was me being angry at God and I, but I wasn't angry. Mm. I just was blank. so what I would do is I would open the Bible to Philippians. is very encouraging book. And see that was a piece of information that I knew before my life fell apart. I knew that Philippians was the feel good. and sometimes Philippians couldn't even do it for me. And this is gonna sound really weird, but I opened up the Bible to the Book of Job. Hmm. and I just started writing out the scriptures. Yeah. Like literally verbatim. It gave my hand something to do. Something to do. Yeah. It gave my eyes something to look at. Yeah. in those years, Kimber job was my peep. Yeah.

Kimber: 38:10

I, was doing some thinking about that actually, because I'm sure, did you hear that a lot? Like, I felt like you, you guy, you were living job during that time. Yeah. Did you hear that a lot or no?

Sally: 38:22

I, I don't know that people really use the word job. I'll tell you what I did hear a lot, You're so strong. Hmm. You're so strong. Oh. That used to just make me so angry. It would crush me. It would terrify me because if they're Right. Kimber, I gotta figure this thing out. Hmm. If, if they're right and I'm strong, then I'm on my own. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. And, I had to work through the fact and I worked it out, that what they're saying is, you're doing this in such a way that you're being maybe an example to other people. Hmm. So I, when the people would say, oh, you're so strong, I would try to hear what it was they were really saying, and then I would try to just say the truth. Like, actually the truth is I am a flipping mess. Yeah.

Kimber: 39:17

Hey friend, forgive me for taking a quick moment in this conversation to ask a favor of you. I hope my conversation with Sally is blessing you today. If so, would you take a moment to rate and review the show on apple podcasts? Reviews are so important in helping new friends find the show and bonuses. I love reading. What is blessing you from the podcast? You can find the link to leave a review in the description of this episode. So thanks so much for doing that. Okay, let's get back to our conversation. it's almost more of like a, the faithfulness of job because like, he wasn't strong really, but like he does keep turning his attention to God. And that's like, That's the strength that I think is so like, to continue posturing yourself that way. Even if your, your posture is that way and you're mad or you're blank, like you say, but you're still, your posture was still towards scripture. Like, that to me is strength in that moment. And that's not a strength that relies on you. you can be a puddle of mush on the ground and still be facing a direction, you know, and Yeah. but I think the way I thought of it was just like, the long suffering

Sally: 40:37

job goes

Kimber: 40:38

through. Yeah. It's like, it to me came into my mind as just a like, complaint to God, honestly. Like, like it's too much. It's too much for one person to go through all of that. Like what job went through all of that? It's too much for one person. It's too much person. Yeah. And I felt like that with you. Like it, it just kept coming and that to me felt like such an injustice and so it's like, thinking about you writing out job, I don't think that's crazy at all. I think that's probably right where you needed to be was like with someone who went through too much as well. So that sounds, that makes perfect sense to me. on that subject. job He had friends. in that time with him. Yeah. Yeah. And some of them were lame really well, and a lot of them did not bless him. Right. Yeah. Um, and so how do you think the people around you impacted your faith positively or negatively during like walking through this time of loss? Like how can we bless our friends in their faith supporting them when it feels like they don't have the ability to pray like you're saying or like, or don't know what to say or, you know what I mean? Like how can we. maybe walk with our friends spiritually, through these times of loss in a way that blesses them rather than, you know, being that person who's like, oh, you know, God has a plan or whatever. Yeah. Other crap gets spewed, you know? Mm-hmm. what do you, how do you see kind of walking that line is maybe looking like,

Sally: 42:25

well, I, I guess it's, a delicate thing to say because I, yeah. I don't wanna say what this is, what needs to be done, because honestly, we don't know. We don't know. Yeah. And that's true. so let me give you maybe some, adjectives to shoot for Yeah. Um, consistent. Mm. Consistent eyes on your friend. Mm. Consistently. speaking truth. Mm. Consistently asking them to stay with you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. asking them to not shove things in a corner like, like we were talking about. You know, tell me about your mom. Right. tell me about your dad let's just celebrate some good things. That were there so that the bad things don't overshadow and steal it all. Yes. Okay. Okay. Here, here's a practical thing. Mm-hmm. call me if you need anything. Holy cannoli, How am I

Kimber: 43:25

supposed to call you? That's like overwhelming. That's not helpful.

Sally: 43:29

Is that what you saying? No. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. so, I'm gonna bring you a pizza tonight. Is seven o'clock work, right? Yes. And then I can say, you know what? I don't like pizza and I'm, I'm gluten intolerant, but thank you so much.

Kimber: 43:43

Right. You have the opportunity to still reject, but it's not like you have to ask,

Sally: 43:48

and I don't have to think. How am I gonna remember to call you if I need something?

Kimber: 43:53

I don't even, I totally felt that. Even just, uh, postpartum, like with baby. Yeah. Which is obviously very different, but it's just like that again, like the mush brain. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know what I need, like you know, probably you have an idea maybe of something I might need, like suggest it. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. with the dog poop that you mentioned, like you're never gonna ask someone that.

Sally: 44:17

No. You came over and you said, I'm going to help you clean Uhhuh What do you need? Cleaned? And I think I, I cocked my head and I went, my gosh, the dog Poopoo And you're like, you had these, boots that had like little, octopuses on the inside. Yes.

Kimber: 44:35

I still have them. Yeah. They're my doves. Yeah. I don't

Sally: 44:39

know if you sanitize them or what, but

Kimber: 44:42

they've been through a lot. So they, it's washed off by now,

Sally: 44:46

And I'll tell you, you were there, you showed up and you didn't say, call me if you need me. You were just right there and you said, I'm going to do something. what it would be the thing that you wanna do. Least well pick up the poop no matter where I am in the tragedy, continuum spectrum is what I wanna do. Least Yes. That's a hundred percent true. And also maybe you were a dog owner, so Sure. Remember I was saying each friend kind of poured in according to Yeah. What they had. Mm-hmm. But yeah, cleaning up dog poo was kind of kimber's. She kind of knew about dog poo, you

Kimber: 45:28

Oh no, I love that though, because I think it's so easy for us to focus on like what we lack, like what we feel like we don't have to bring yes to someone who's in need But I love that you recognize Different friends have different things to give and that's okay. and,

Sally: 45:45

and that's wonderful. You have lean

Kimber: 45:46

into it. Yeah. Yeah. Cause no one was probably your everything. Right. You know, you needed, you needed a, a system. And I'm sure some people were more close to everything than others, of course. But like, there's those close people that provide more, but still, like, you need all of your people. And so that's an encouragement to me for sure.

Sally: 46:06

That's good. You know, Let me maybe just say this, I think is a skill that people can work on, no matter if their life is going well or if they're in the middle of a, poop shower mm-hmm. Um, you've got to learn to sort. the voices. Mm-hmm. there are two voices coming at you. God's voice is coming at you. The still small voice, it's coming. Mm-hmm. And it's there. Yeah. And, and the world's Satan driven loud voice and you've got to hear the difference. And it seems overwhelming and like, how am I supposed to know the difference? I think it's simple if it's encouraging. Mm-hmm. if it's true, if it's edifying, if it's heart melting Hmm. Then it's from God. Yeah. That is the, that is the whisper of the Holy Spirit. Hmm. If it is accusing, if it is causing fear, yep. If it is causing feelings of inadequacy and loneliness, it's not from God. And you may have to hold on through it. You know, if it's not a faucet that you can just turn off, you may have to hold on through it, but you don't have to listen to it. You, you don't have to accept it. You, you don't have to say, yeah, that's what I am now. Yeah. and, and if you will hold on long enough and you will speak words of truth, it will get clearer. It will. Hmm. Yeah.

Kimber: 47:36

I love that because in those moments that is what we have to guide us when we don't have anything else Yeah. Like, you know, but it can feel overwhelming, I think, to try to discern that voice in the moment. Maybe if we haven't ever tried to discern it before. Like you say about like, build your friendships before you need'em kind of thing. Yeah. But like, learn to listen to the Holy Spirit before. that's like all you have to clinging to, you know? And so I, I love that encouragement to pay attention to what we're hearing. Yeah. You know, and and what, and sort it believing sort

Sally: 48:11

it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because you, there's a different flavor. It's a different taste, it's a different tone. Like whatever fits in your understanding when you start sorting it like that, it's really clear. Like right now I'm really fighting. you know, I've gone through menopause and, you know, I'm never gonna be young again. And that's sad. That is a, that's a grief, you know. Sure. and so I, I, I've always fought this a little bit, but lately it's like, oh my gosh, I see a picture of myself and I just wanna, blah. I see myself in the mirror and I'm like, oh my gosh. And that's not from God. Nope. That's accusing. Mm-hmm. Satan is the accuser. Yep. So when I feel that coming up and I'm feeling that reaction, I just snap my finger and I say, God made that. Hmm, God made that face. And if you're doing something to make it worse, then you need to stop that. Like, maybe you should work out a little bit more. Not that could be true. Sure. Uh, maybe, you know, you need to visit the L'Oreal store, whatever do your best good stewards. Sure. Um, sure. But if it's making you I don't know what that word is, like, kind of despise yourself, like Yeah. Ugh. you are listening to the wrong voice. Hmm. And, I'm pointing my finger at that and I snapping my finger and saying, God made that. And I know that's a silly thing to say, but it's just a little reminder of Yeah. What you can listen to. Yes. I love that. And when I walk into a room and I see a friend or I meet a stranger, I don't see any of them barfing. No. They're not seeing my face. And, you know, doubling over in pain So it's not true. Yep,

Kimber: 49:52

Absolutely. Anyway. Hmm. I love that. Yeah, man. Sally, thank you so much for just telling us what's up. I love it. It's good. Well, thanks for, for sharing your story with us and trusting us with it. I'm really honored.

Sally: 50:07

Thank you. You know, it's important to, and it's been enough time that it's not really the thing that comes up all the time anymore. Yeah. But I love this story that God gave me, not just the good Barts. but the hard parts too. Mm-hmm. So thanks for giving me the opportunity to, to remember.

Kimber: 50:25

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that is just one of the, like, things that stands out to me most through our conversation is just inviting the opportunity to remember can be one of the most important things we can do for our friends in Yeah. In these hard spaces. I. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah,

Sally: 50:43

thank you.

Kimber: 50:44

Oh man, I love it. Well, Sally, to wrap up the podcast, I used to, ask my friends who I got to interview, about their plants or like their gardening or whatever, but I've taken a pause from that. But with spring, like teasing us out there, I feel like with the sunshine right now, I was thinking about it and you are like a master gardener. So I wanted to ask you as we wrap up here, what is like just one thing that you want to make sure that you get to do outside this summer in the realm of gardening? What's like your number one

Sally: 51:19

dream? Well, that's a hard one because I have moved to a place where there's not as much sun. Yeah, so I'm kind of having to change my go-to plants. Yeah. But you know, you asked me the last time you were over for dinner, what are you doing for fun? And that question has haunted me because I'm not doing my goodness. Anything for fun right now. It is all work, it is all toward this goal. And I don't know, God has put Kimber in my life like, you need some rose pushes. Yeah, you need some hanging baskets

Kimber: 51:51

because Sally, when I think of you, you love fun. Oh, you do. I mean, that's how I imagine you, I mean, I'm sorry to be the, source of the word,

Sally: 52:03

but No, it, it's good because I don't, it's probably a good one to pick at. I don't wanna lose myself, so Yeah, I want to have, geraniums everywhere because geraniums are so sturdy and some people hate geraniums. And I'm, in fact, some people say geraniums smell like cat pee but I've smelled cat pee and it does not smell like geraniums but they're just so hardy and if I neglect them for a little bit, yes, they'll be okay. And that's

Kimber: 52:31

why I love platoons. I feel like Yes, they can see it

Sally: 52:34

through. Yeah, absolutely. They're fine. Yes. Yes. So yeah, maybe I just need to go to the blue collar flowers. while I'm doing this hard thing, I've, I've gotten a job and I'm working 40 hours a week and I've never done that in my life. Because I used to work 60 hours a week. Oh, okay. I was gonna say

Kimber: 52:52

we were both, we didn't really talk about this at all, which cuz we could talk about a billion things. But Sally was an English teacher for, what, 25 years Did you retire? Or 24? 33.

Sally: 53:02

Whoa. Oh really?

Kimber: 53:04

I think you were at twenties only. Okay. I'm behind obviously Um, I was like, you have for sure worked a 40 hour week if you're a

Sally: 53:11

teacher. You know what though? When I'm with kids it doesn't feel like work. Oh, it's different. Yeah. Yeah. It's different. It's true. That's a good one. Anyway. Yes, geraniums, petunias will throw in some boones and Yeah, I, I've always tried to winter over roses. Yeah. And I just can't, I just can't figure out how to do that. Okay. So you. I was gonna buy new ones. Yep. Because give some fresh roses. Give

Kimber: 53:37

me some new annuals. We'll, work fine.

Sally: 53:42

Yeah. Thank love. Thank you. So keep bugging me about that because you're right. I, I need to have beauty in my life. That's why God sent me you.

Kimber: 53:50

Oh, likewise my aw Thanks so much, Sally. All right. Have a good night.

Sally: 53:55

Thank you. Bye.

Kimber: 54:01

Friends. I am so glad you could join Sally and I this week on the, your sister Kimber podcast. I'm really honored that Sally would share her story with us today and her wisdom on being good friends to our friends, walking through. And living with loss. I hope it helps you be a blessing to your people. They need you friends. So don't let the devil keep you living scared to love them. Well, And if you're wanting to grow an intentionality with loving your friends well, My new digital resource might be a help. It's called 20 facts to know about your friends. And it's going to give you the ideas to bless your people and love on them in tangible ways. It's a free PDF that you can download and either print or just even text it to a friend to fill out for you, then save those ideas in your phone, under their contact card for when you need it. Like Sally told us, make your friends before you need them. You can get this resource on my website, which is linked in the description of this episode. And if you haven't yet joined my newsletter crew, will you visit your sister kimber.com to subscribe? When you subscribe, you get my weekly newsletter directly to your email inbox, with a preview of what will be featured on the podcast that week. Plus a link to this month's blog posts and some other resources and tips to help you grow friendships, the honor, God and Dre, closer to Jesus. I hope it blesses you. Friends. Thanks so much for being part of this community until next time. It's your sister Kimber.