Your Sister, Kimber
Your Sister, Kimber
Ep.60 Does Grief Impact Friendship? + Julie Lynn Ashley
Kimber talks with grief coach Julie Lynn Ashley about how grief, particularly from a death loss, impacts our friendships.
Julie Lynn holds a Masters of Science in Thanatology (death, grief and bereavement), is a member of the Association for Death Education and Counseling, mom to Landon and Kyle (both in college) and wife to her very best friend of 27 years, Doug, who is a lead pastor in Texas. Julie Lynn has worked and volunteered in the hospice industry for years and there developed a God-given passion to support grieving people. She now has her own grief support ministry (both in person and online) where she works with people one on one who need support following a death loss. Learn more, find vetted resources, and get support from Julie Lynn at julielynnashley.com.
Resources Mentioned by Julie Lynn:
What's Your Grief (15:23): https://whatsyourgrief.com/
Nancy Guthrie Video (25:21): https://youtu.be/hEVEB3DEK7Y
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Hey friends. Welcome to the, your sister Kimber podcast. My name is Kimberly Gilbert, and I'm so glad that you're here today. It's possibly one of the things for this, from our minds when walking through grief, but these seasons of life do impact our friendships. Whether we're the ones walking through grief and struggling to know how to handle our friendships through that time. Or if we're the friend trying to walk well alongside a grieving friend, such an impactful time in life will naturally have ripple effects into our friendships. And so today we get to talk with grief coach, Julie Lynn, Ashley, and Julie Lynn has worked and volunteered in the hospice industry for years. And there developed a God given passion to support grieving people. She now has her own grief support ministry, both in-person and online, where she works with people one-on-one who needs support following a death loss. I pray our conversation today gives you practical ideas to love your friends well through this season. And if you're walking through grief right now, yourself, That it gives you hope and direction for how you can relate to your friends during this time. I wish that we could have this talk over coffee across the table, but this is the next best thing. I'm so glad that you're here, friend. Let's get started. Hi, Julie Lynn. Hello. Hello,
Julie:hello. Thank you so much for having me, Kimber. I'm excited to have this conversation today.
Kimber:Yeah, man, I am too. Uh, we got connected a, a while ago through some kind of crazy, different connections that I actually don't still fully understand. But, man, you've been such a blessing to our community here and I'm so excited to talk with you today. Um, we're not talking about a. Topic that is super easy. We're talking about grief today, but man, I think it's so, so important and, I know that it's a big part of your work and so I'm really excited to learn more from you today.
Julie:Yes. I'm excited to talk about, even though it's a hard subject. Yeah. There's, um, a place for us to walk with grieving people and then to get to talk with grieving people directly. So I'm excited for all the facets of this conversation.
Kimber:Cool. Well, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to our friends listening who may not know who you are.
Julie:Okay. I am Julie Lynn. Ashley, and I'm a grief coach, and so I work with grieving people all over the country and now internationally that's happening a little bit, which is exciting. Yeah. Um, I'm mom to Landon and Kyle. They're both college age and then wife to my very best friend Doug, um, for 28 years. And Doug has been a pastor that entire time, so pastor's wife on top of all this
Kimber:too. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you enjoy like the quote, traditional role of pastor's wife, or do you like rebel against that a little bit?
Julie:I've kind of charted my own path with that. Yeah. Um, and that's something that's actually been really fun and I have been, um, so grateful to have congregations. That, um, support that, cheer that on. Mm-hmm. Um, and so yeah, I've charted my own path. I'm, I'm not really, and you hear a lot of people say this, I don't fit the mold, but I don't think anybody really does.
Kimber:That's kind of the point of being an individual. Right? Right. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. And you mentioned that you were a grief coach? Yes. Yes. Is that what you, how you like say it to most people? That is correct, yes. Okay. Will you tell us a little bit more about just like, what that involves for you? Um, how you, I. Kind of got into that realm, like, yeah. What was your story with that?
Julie:So when Doug took the pastor job here in Texas nine years ago, when you move to a new town, you're looking for how can I get involved in my community? Mm-hmm. And make new friends. And so I had an acquaintance at the time say, Hey, Julie Lynn, you should come and volunteer at this hospice where I work. Mm-hmm. And I thought, well, I've never done that before, but it's a new chapter, a new day, so why not? Yeah. And when I got there, I immediately, God drew my heart toward the bereavement side of hospice. a chaplain that I met there told me about some grad school programs, um, so that I could be more educated, um, on the, um, academic side of grief. Yeah, I had the empathy, but I quickly realized that wasn't gonna be enough. Right. Yeah. Totally. Um, for what I wanted to do. And so, um, that began, uh, the, the challenge and the mm-hmm. New journey of grad school while my kids were in high school and I had sworn up and down, I would never go back to school. So, um, I, I challenge anyone listening, um, that you just never know when God might give you careful what you say. Yeah, that's right. Um, I, I had a bible study leader once. Say, you know what, Sarah got her biggest assignment when she was 99, so, right, true. So you never know when God might drop a big old assignment in your lap. And I loved learning. Um, graduated, uh, with a Master's of science in Thanatology. The, the Greek word for death is Santos. Um, and so this is the study of death, grief, and bereavement from a lot of different angles. And then I'm a member of the Association for Death Education and Counseling for ongoing education in this field because just like medicine, just like teachers, I mean, the field's changing all the time, and so you wanna stay up with the latest studies and, and all of that. So, um, now I work with people online, all over the country, people here in my town, and now people internationally working with them one-on-one after a death loss. Um, and, and supporting them very specifically, very uniquely, um, in that way. And it's been the journey of a lifetime. I feel very privileged to hold some very sacred
Kimber:stories. I. Hmm. Yeah, man. I bet. Wow. How do you feel like your heart does with like working with this kind of thing, like on a daily basis? I just think that that would be such a challenging thing because even if you have a heart for it, I think, I mean, it's still heavy. I. Yes, yes.
Julie:Um, this element of self-care was really emphasized very strongly in the work I did in the hospice industry and then also in grad school. They really, really emphasized the idea of self-care. So some practical things that I do is I do not schedule back to back appointments. And I'm also intentional about going out for a walk, um, after an appointment. Mm-hmm. Or something that's not a Netflix flick binge. This is something that's gonna get endorphins going. Um, and so knowing that this is a marathon, not a sprint, um, and so that's some of the intentional self-care pieces. Um, and God's given me such joy mm-hmm. In helping people. Not the circumstances. The circumstances are heartbreaking. Right. But the joy is in this wild journey that I've been on. Mm-hmm. And getting to help. That's the joy in it. Yeah. So,
Kimber:wow. I just think that's incredible because It must be something that God puts on the heart of an individual and like equips you for, because I don't know if I could do it, you know? So thank you for the work that you do. I think it is really important, and
Julie:I echo what you just said. He absolutely equips you because standing in front of grad school, I was like, there's no way I'm, I'm in the car line in the afternoon. Like, old people can't do this right. And I was, I was like, This was so much fun to get to work towards something that I knew was gonna help people. Yeah. So you, again, you just never know what God might do. Mm-hmm. With this little seed that for me, he planted back when I was in the sixth grade. That's how far back I can trace this. Wow.
Kimber:What do you trace to the sixth grade? Like what is that seed you
Julie:say? I had to do a report, um, in the sixth grade, on a biography. And I chose, um, the story of Alex, the Life of a child. It was, um, by Frank Deford, who was a sports writer, and he wrote about losing his six year old daughter to cystic fibrosis. Wow. And as a sixth grader, I was completely captivated by this story. Wow. The anticipatory grief. He was experiencing the grief for the family afterward, and that's where, God, I can trace it back that far. God planted a seed back then. Wow. Because what sixth grader would care,
Kimber:you know? Right. No sixth grader, just usually, I feel like you don't quite have the capacity. No. Most kids, like I used to teach high school. I don't know if you knew that. And I worked with freshmen mostly and. Like, yeah. Just a lot of them. It's just you're very, um, self-focused still. Yes. At that point, developmentally. And so it's hard sometimes to enter into other people's grief. Yes. Yeah.
Julie:So that's how far back I can trace it. And obviously it took years and years and years for God to develop this, um, to this point. But it, it makes me smile now to think that Wow, like he had this in mind for so many years. Yeah. Um, and now bringing it to fruition now has just been, um, a joy in really difficult circumstances.
Kimber:Yeah. That's incredible. Well, we sort of got connected, like I was saying, after, I had a conversation with, a friend of mine, Sally Joe Cook. And, uh, she had, um, a really difficult season in her life, About five years ago or a little more now, six years ago, where she lost her husband and her mother and her father, um, within a couple years to cancer. And, That conversation was really special to me personally,'cause I was very close with her husband as well. And, just like the, the willingness on her part to share her heart with that was, uh, really honor, an honor to me. Um, but you shared with me that that is, um, an, a conversation that has, That has impacted you as well, or like resonated with you. And so I would just love to hear like from your perspective as like someone who works professionally in this kind of field, um, what was it like in that episode that was, most impactful for you? Or what were you really like? Yes, yes, yes. You know, what was it that stood out to you in that conversation? So
Julie:this is episode 46, so if you're just joining, um, into the podcast, please, please go back and listen to that episode. It is one of the best I've ever, ever heard, um, on grief. Sally Jo was very real and very raw. Mm-hmm. Um, and one of the things that resonated the most with me, um, was this very intimate moment that she had with God in the middle of what she was going through, and that God surprisingly asked Sally Jo to give in the middle of her grief, and he had provided exactly what she needed to give. Mm-hmm. And there was this, the pancake mix, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. The pancake mix. Mm-hmm. Um, and the joy for Sally Jo in taking the little, that she had, the not enough that she had. Mm-hmm. And watching God multiply it like the little boy with the loaves and the fishes in the Bible. Mm-hmm. the. Incredible nature for Sally Joe of feeling like I am not a map dot God sees me. Mm-hmm. He knows where I am and he knows exactly what's happening to me and he knows that this is what I need right now. Mm-hmm. Um, And I sat at my kitchen table. I was the only one home at the time, and I was saying Amen at my kitchen table. Mm-hmm. I was just like blown away by this story of, this very intimate conversation between Sally Jo and God, um, working it out with this pancake mix. Yeah. And, and the miracle of that, that God would, see into this situation and move so mightily, and the closeness. Um, the intimacy. Um, yeah. And some in a place, so unexpected, you never expect in the middle of grief to be giving, that's a time that you would anticipate Right. Receiv Yeah. For people to be giving. Exactly. Hmm. And so that was the part of that inter, there were so many parts of that interview that, that struck me, but that was the most poignant for me. I was like, wow, God sees me. He sees right where you are and is gonna provide in amazing ways. Um, and so that's the part of that conversation that just stays with me to this day. Can't say enough
Kimber:good things. Yeah. Mm. I rem one of the things that's I remember most, poignantly from our conversation. Was she her saying that like, the Holy Spirit is such a careful counselor and like Yes, he cares for our heart so carefully in these moments that are tender and you know, full of grief? Yes. And that was, is what you're describing there is like how he is just such a careful counselor and takes such good care of us in those moments. And, I think it's especially powerful when you hear that from someone who's like in the moment or has very recently been in there. Yes. Because it's one thing to say that, but it's another to really live through it, I think.
Julie:Yes, absolutely. It, it's excellent. Please go listen to it if you haven't yet. It's so,
Kimber:so good. Yeah, it was, it was wonderful for me. man, I'm, I'm so thankful to learn from you today, We have been in, a series, this summer called Being the Friend You Need, and the series has been all about how the things that grow our relationship with Jesus, how they actually grow our friendships too, because they spill out. And, uh, it's not so much about like being a better friend, like as in try harder, but how when we are pressing into Jesus, like it's going to bless our friendships and, you know, one of the areas of friendship that we can't ignore is this side of grief, I think. And you know, I don't think we think a lot about it in our friendships until we're in that moment and then suddenly it's like, oh, like. How do I interact with the people around me, my relationships when my personal life feels so hard? Um, and so this is something that I wanna talk about today is just how does grief impact our friendships, whether we're the one in, the grief moment or if our friend is going through that and we're trying to love them well through that, because I think it's just a matter in part of. Like talking about it before we're there and if we're already there, like, you know, we can still learn and grow from that and we're probably never gonna be totally prepared. But I certainly don't think it hurts to learn about this before we're in that moment. And that's actually something that Sally Joe talked about that I remember as well was, you know, build these deep friendships before you sort of need them. Yes. And I think it's the same kind of idea with this is like, Build up these, um, almost the muscles of being able to go there in your friendships before you have nowhere else to go because that's just where you're at. Yes. So you said that this idea of like how grief impacts friendship is something you actually end up talking about a lot. So where have you seen that come up in your, with your clients and in their experiences?
Julie:Yes, I hear this. I talk about this subject with clients all the time. Mm-hmm. One of my favorite quotes, and I think we'll have this in the show notes, um mm-hmm. And resources. Um, it's a website called What's Your Grief? it's not a faith-based resource. So I tell people, use your faith filter when you're going through it. But, some excellent academic. Things to be thinking about related to grief. And one of my favorite quotes, this is written primarily by a social worker, is, um, grief changes your address book or in modern day language that would be grief changes your contact list in your phone. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and so three main areas that I hear this from clients, um, the first one is that they made new friends during their grieving period because people showed up unexpectedly. That kind of came outta nowhere. and so it's like this friendship was formed in a really difficult time because this person came outta nowhere and showed up for them and walked with them. And so they were like, well, I wasn't expecting this friendship to be born during this time of loss, but like, what a gift. Yes. Hmm. So I hear that. And then the other thing I hear from clients is, that grief, you know, conversely, I had people that I expected to show up for me that were nowhere to be found. And unfortunately sometimes this can happen, even with extended family, um, extended family that have said, I can't deal with this right now, I'm out. and how that's yet another loss for a grieving person. Right. So, and then the other one that I hear is I had friends that stayed in it with me. We were already friends and this friendship got even stronger because we went through this season of grief. and this, this really difficult walk of grief together. So those are some of the, the areas and things that I hear from clients. Um, and so it's just been interesting. It's a facet that I think a lot of people don't necessarily consider unless they've been through it. So,
Kimber:right, totally. What do you feel like are, do you feel like there are consistent things that we can see where it's like, what characterizes those friendships that like, stay in it, as you stay or stay with them through it? what do you hear as being or, or think are some characteristics of that we can, pursue that are friends who stay in it, if you will?
Julie:So it's the, the notion of, and it's a hard concept for us to grasp, I hadn't even thought about this until I worked in the hospice industry, is that this will absolutely never be fixed in their life. There will always be an empty chair at the table at Thanksgiving. Mm-hmm. Um, there will always be, something this side of heaven that's just not ever resolved. Yeah. And so, As a friend, if you're going into this, that's hard. Yeah, it's very hard. Mm-hmm. Um, and so if you're going into this as a friend with that mentality that they're not gonna be fine in a year, they're not. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, and that you are in this with them just like they are mourning and they are grieving, you're gonna stay with them in that and you're not gonna expect them to be happy and jolly and back the way things they are changing. As a person because of this loss. And so it's, staying with them through those changes. And that can be really difficult because the way they were before, is going to be different as a result of this loss.
Kimber:Right. and then the other thing is like, you don't know what that different is going to be really either, because obviously everyone handles grief and or walks through it differently and Right. Like, we're already unique people, so it's not even like you can anticipate that really. And so it sounds to me like it's this commitment of like, I became friends with you initially because, I maybe like, liked your personality or we just clicked or, you know, whatever was the reason you became friends with someone. But then it's like, if that person changes, would you have become friends with the person they are now? Right. Is. may like a question not probably worth talking about with them, but like, just considering on your own. But then it's the, the commitment of, okay, but I'm gonna stay anyway. Mm-hmm. Because I'm committed to them as a person. Which that is, that's so difficult. Like, that reminds me of kind of the challenge that we have in marriage of like it being a. Covenant like commitment versus just something that you could fall in or out of based on how you feel about the person in a given season. Right, right. But I think we don't think about our friendships often that same way. Maybe it's'cause I'm younger, like I have not had any like lifetime friends yet because like, I moved a bunch when I was in elementary school and so like all of my friends have been seasonal so far. Mm-hmm. Like the longest ones have been for, I have about. 10, 15 years of adult life under my belt and, and like, so it's just like I'm just beginning to learn what it looks like to like stick with a friend over. Like a long time as they change. Yes. And so I think it's normal that we would, as people, especially like, my, like I'm 30, so 30 something. So like people in kind of that world, like this is a muscle we're learning is how to stick with people even as they change. Because probably up until this point they haven't changed a ton. Yes. Depending on how long you've been friends with them. Right. Um, so what do you feel like are some of these like. Changes that we might be able to kind of expect or like just be open to that. If we know our friend is walking through grief, grief, that we could kind of be aware are, are possible, are there any that you can identify? Um,
Julie:you can, some of the things that just in hearing and seeing, um, in, in the experiences that I've had is that their personality may change. Mm-hmm. Um, it, that could be permanent, that could be temporary. I, I remember seeing a widow years ago, and she was quite introverted prior to the death of her husband, and after he passed this complete extrovert emerged. Wow. Um, almost to the point of unrecognizable to a lot of people. And so it, it is, I love to use the word when I'm talking with, clients, is becoming. Um, you are in the process of becoming, I mean, we all are. but especially with someone who is grieving, they may take, I mean, the personality may change, things that they do may change. so it's just that willingness to, like you said, hang with them. Yeah. Um, as they are becoming, um Right. And know that God has something. For them in what they're becoming. So this widow that I just mentioned, she went on to become an incredible worship leader. She had kind of been in his shadow for a long time and, um, she is still leading worship to this day. Um, and it's been incredible to watch this confidence that kind of emerged Yeah. That she may never have seen coming. Yeah. but how that has touched so many people and so many lives out of a really difficult loss. So Yeah. It's, and it's different with everyone. Everyone is so unique with how they grieve.
Kimber:Hmm. I have a friend who, um, is just a little bit younger than me and, um, recently lost her husband. And so, you know, just like, especially becoming a widow so young, I think, I mean it's incredibly challenging any time, but, You just really don't see it coming. I think the younger you are right and right. people, she's told me that people have expressed the sentiment to her of when are we gonna get the old person back? Right. And, uh, it like that obviously is not. A good thing to say. No, that goes without saying. but it, like, it grieves my heart to think about that for her because, yes, she's different, but. she's still wonderful, you know? Mm-hmm. And right. So, you know, things like that. It's like, I think they, they come out of our mouths sometimes and we probably realize, I hope we realize afterwards that like, that was not, you know, helpful. but it's like, It's because we're noticing these changes, right? That you're talking about. And so hopefully we can filter and not articulate that, but when we feel that kind of tension to know that that's a normal part of, very normal of Yes. Like seeing your friend go through this is Yes. Um, yeah, they're different and that's, yeah. But that's okay. Yeah.
Julie:Because God may have things for them to do right. With these new elements, uh, that they're experiencing their personality with. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I, like I said, with this widow, I was like, she's touched so many lives with her worship leading Right. That's changed entirely from where she was before. And so God had something really cool in the middle of all that, out of a, a difficult spot. So it is, it's, it's hanging with people as they are becoming, as it, it's like a, a butterfly. I love that. Right. Yeah. It's that word becoming, and I, I, I really hang with that with my clients.
Kimber:Yeah. I love that. Mm-hmm. Man. So what do you feel like, is maybe one or two of these just kind of like common mistakes that you feel or that you see friends making with. People who are grieving, like things that, you know, we don't intend probably, but that just some awareness could help us to watch out for and just be aware of like, hey, that's not helpful. Um, yes or that's not going to help your friend heal. Um, what are some things that you see coming out? So, there's
Julie:two things that I can think of. Um, one of them is, to bring up the person's name who died. And that is so counterintuitive to us. another great resource. I will send you the link to this, that
Kimber:we should do that. Is
Julie:that what you're saying? We should bring up the name of the person that died, and that's counterintuitive to us. Mm-hmm. It's, um, Nancy Guthrie, who is one of the co-hosts of Grief Share, that's a nationwide program, grief support groups that meet all over the country, faith-based, and, she has an. Excellent video. I'm gonna send you the link so that you can put that in the show notes. I'll, yeah. And the video is called What Grieving People Wish You Knew about, what Really Helps and What really hurts. Mm-hmm. Good. And she said, um, a lot of people are afraid to bring up the name of the person that died because she says in her video, well, what if I make them cry? And I love how she breaks this down. She said, it's not like they forgot that their husband died and you just reminded them. They know. Oh
Kimber:yeah. Right. They're aware every minute. Yeah.
Julie:Yes. But she said, when you bring it up, she said, grief is like this computer back program running in the background of their mind all the time. It never shuts off. Mm-hmm. And she said, when you bring up that name, There's tears inside that you allow them to release. And that is a gift actually, even though for it feels counterintuitive, like, oh no, I made them cry. You didn't make them cry. Um, but you have had the courage to step in where very few people will step. Yeah. And that is a power. I get chills talking about it. That is a powerful thing. It's, it's a brave thing to do and it's so, so needed. The second one, I think a common mistake that we make is the words, at least anything that is gonna come on the other side of those two words is going to be bad. Yeah, you, when you say at least, and then you follow it up with some phrase that is actually to make yourself more comfortable in an uncomfortable situation. It's not really
Kimber:for them. Like you're trying to find the reason to not be as uncomfortable, right? Yeah. Right.
Julie:And so it's much. In my, from everything I've seen sitting in silence, sitting in what I would call metaphorically, a dissonant musical chord, a chord that's not resolved. Mm. Yeah. Is, that's a powerful thing. And so those are two common mistakes that I see a lot is using the words at least, or not bringing up the name of the person that died. Yeah.
Kimber:I love how practical those are too.'cause I feel like those are things that I can remember and then apply to the given situation. Yes. You know the moment as. You know, as applicable, but that's, they're easy to remember. So yeah, I love that. Um, just with that idea of, um, sitting in silence, I feel like that is, like, it makes sense to me in theory. And then there's that moment where I don't know like what, what that looks like. Is it literally like I can show up at someone's house and I literally just sit there maybe. Um, but what do you think? How would you just define kind of. this idea more broadly speaking of like being comfortable with silence and kind of sitting with someone in grief. One phrase that I hear like kind of thrown around a lot is the idea of like, holding space for mm-hmm. Grief, right? Like, so what do you feel like more practically speaking those kind of things can look like in our relationships, whether it's like right after. A moment, um, or down the road even like six months a year, you know, what do you kind of see this looking like?
Julie:So when you go to the funeral, you normally get a funeral program that has the person who died their face on the front of it, and then the dates that they were born and the dates that they died. Hmm. Inside that program is an absolute treasure trove of follow up, very practical follow-up. And here's what I mean by that. Inside that program, you're gonna find the wedding anniversary if they were married. Inside that program, you're gonna find, obviously, you've got the, the day that they were born, the day that they died. All of those are absolutely perfect days to follow up with a grieving person. Yeah. So what I, I just did this at home not too long ago, is I'll get those dates and put them in my phone Yeah. And say text so and so on this day. Mm-hmm. Um, and it, it can be, you don't have to use words. Um, there was a, a grieving mother I was following up with, um, on the day, uh, one year later that I knew she had lost her son, and I just sent her a heart. And she knew exactly what I meant. Right. I didn't have to try and say something, beautiful or flowery or try and fix anything. It's just I see you. I know that this day is tender. And my hope is, and our hope, you know, obviously we're, we're Christ ambassadors here. This is the touch of this is Jesus' hands. Yeah. On her on this day. Mm-hmm. It's like God sees you and he put you on my heart. To reach out to you on this day. Yeah, and you can do that from this little piece of paper that you get at the funeral. Take it with you. Don't put it in the trash. Plug those dates in your phone. And, the return, the, response has been incredible. Just from those little, like, wow, you remembered, because sometimes, people in the family will forget the day of the anniversary. Sometimes they'll forget the birthday, but the fact that you remembered it is a big deal, especially in friendships. Mm-hmm. I mean in all, all across the board, but
Kimber:especially in friendships. Yeah, absolutely.'cause they're already walking through that day. And so to enter into that, I can see where that would be a way that you could
Julie:Yeah. Enter into that. Yeah. It's powerful and it, it can be so simple. I mean, it can be a text, it can be a meal, it can be a lot of different things. But when it's very specific to a day that you know is gonna be tender for them, it's, it's very powerful.
Kimber:Hmm. That's so good. What do you feel like is, You know, one or two things that we you know, as friends, we don't think of, when our friends are walking through grief, what do we not realize that our friends really need from us? in these moments? Moments. So I think
Julie:one of them is, um, grief is lonely. Um, it's very lonely. there God only made one of the person that you lost. Yeah. And so there is a wide majority of your circle that is not gonna understand. and so just that awareness, that grief is lonely. And so if you're on the fence about whether or not to lean in, go ahead and lean in. Mm-hmm. Because there's a high probability that nobody else in their circle has asked them about their grief today. Um, and so just that awareness that it can be very lonely and very isolating, um, because most people aren't gonna bring it up at work. They're not gonna stop by your office or stop by your workstation and say, so how, you know, they're, they're just not gonna ask that because they're afraid. Right? They're afraid of making you cry. Yeah. Yeah. So lean if you, if you're in doubt, lean in.
Kimber:Yeah, especially like down the road, I feel like that probably becomes less and less right. Because That's exactly right. People move on with their lives and like forget things, you know, when they're not right in front of them. so I love that idea of like putting the dates in our phones, you know? What do you feel like the fur like, so quote, the further you get away from a moment of grief, um, what do you think is most important for friends to be aware of? Like the further our friend is away from the mo, the initial moment. Um, how does that maybe change? Or like what, what is something that we should be aware of the further away they are from it? Yeah.
Julie:The further away that they get from the grief, um, the less relevant that their person that they lost is to the world. Hmm. And so when you bring up a story, a memory, it's like for a minute, they're back with them for just a second. Yeah. Um, and so I've watched this, um, with clients be so healing when they can hear from family members and friends like, Hey, I remember a time that, you know, we laughed together doing this. Or, we did this in a really practical way one year at our blue Christmas service here at our church. Um, you know, if the paper chains that you used to make as kids. Yeah. Um, we wrote memories on those and then gave them to someone who was grieving and they created these memory chains that they could put on their Christmas tree. Oh, wow. And so that's cool. Um, that is just one really simple idea, of how to really, link back to, the, the relevance. That their person that they lost had on this earth, obviously they're not here anymore. And, that is really hard for a grieving person, who's trying to go on, right. with the person that they lost being less and less relevant as time goes on. And that's really hard. So when you bring up a memory, when you bring up a story that is such a big gift. Yeah.
Kimber:Wow. I love that idea. And I, I think that could be even Something that you could do as like a community, like, you know, if you have like a friend group or something that, all knew that person that you lost or, or in a family even, to all kind of like, almost like get together and do that. Like, you know, write as many as you can and then make the chain together or something. Yes. That would be, that's really cool. Yes. I love that. Because you're celebrating their life then, not just Exactly. Mourning the loss. Yeah.
Julie:Exactly. We, it was, it was an amazing thing to watch widows walk out of that service with this, you know, they have the, the means to make this chain of memories to put on their tree about the person that they loved and lost. And so it, it's a very special thing to get to do that. Yeah.
Kimber:I love that. Wow. Um, Julie Lynn, would you say that you primarily work with people who have, who are grieving because of a death that they have lost? Yeah, that
Julie:is correct. That's my training. Okay. Mm-hmm.
Kimber:Yes. Okay, gotcha. Um, because I know that like, A lot of, uh, we experience grief with like this, uh, preemptive sometimes, like the leading up to, or even grief that we experience in like other circumstances in our lives. Like, you know, friends who are walking through fertility challenges. Yes. Things like that. but the finality, I suppose of grief that comes with a death, Is probably changes. How it impacts a person. Because like, you know, I think of with, my friends walking through infertility, that grief, I feel like it, it seems like there's potentially a horizon on the other side. Mm-hmm. Right, right. And, but how do you feel like, it changes the grief when there is like the the finality aspect of it and it's like there's nothing like you said that will. make this part better, right. Or like, change this outcome. Um, how do you feel like that changes the grieving process itself?
Julie:There's this deep yearning that can't be fixed or met or mm-hmm. Um, and that's the, the frustrating part for a grieving person is right. Um, this, I, I wish they were here for this. I wish that I could talk with them about this challenging situation. And we always used to talk about this, and now they're gone. Yeah. Um, and so that's the, the part, that in terms of working this through with clients is so challenging because there is this side of heaven, there's a permanence to it. Right? Um, so, and that's, that's the part that, and again, um, I think that's why people are so intimidated to bring it up because there's nothing they can do. To bring the person back, to fix it, to, to, um, restore. And so that's, I think why we're so intimidated to bring it up and talk about it.
Kimber:Yeah. I think that that's true. That at least resonates for me. Mm-hmm. I, um, am such a fixer. And so I feel like, um, as we've been, Leaning in on the podcast over the last like year or so into talking about grief more is, I think that it's been such like a good learning experience for me in, um, there are just things in our friendships that they're not gonna get, they don't get fixed. Right. Like, they just don't. And that's part of, I think just being an adult with like grownup problems And that is really hard. but I think that it can actually be good because it forces us not to rely just on like good circumstances in our friendships, but rather to rely on the Lord and like actual authentic love for our people. Yes. Not just like, easy circumstances because Right. Easy circumstances make easy friendships, but they don't necessarily make like deep, authentic friendships. Exactly. I think
Julie:situations when you walk through, um, a grief with someone, there's this depth, there's this richness that forms in, in the relationship that you might not have had if you hadn't walked through this really dark valley.
Kimber:Mm. Wow, man. Well, I love to kind of wrap up the podcast, with just some encouragement to kind of send our people off, and we've talked a lot from this focus today about, How to be like a good friend to someone who is walking through grief. but I think for our final encouragement, I would love to hear, um, just kind of your heart towards someone who is in that grief moment. And so for a friend listening, if If she is the one who is walking through grief, whether it's newer or like you said, like this doesn't go away. Like, you know, maybe this is years ago, but it's still like a part of your heart. and she feels like it impacts her friendships. Um, and it's like maybe she doesn't have a lot to give in this moment, or friendships feel strained, or a challenge. because of her grief, What do you feel like you would say to her in that moment to encourage her heart? I. So
Julie:to the person that's grieving, especially one that, where it's been very recent mm-hmm. Um, I would tell that grieving person, um, that you are doing things, that are very difficult that the rest of us take for granted. And what I mean by that is getting up out of bed, getting showered. Paying the bills and going to work. We take that for granted. We get up and just do that rotely. But for you, it's really, really hard work right now. Hmm. And so it's okay to stop and be kind and gentle with yourself and celebrate the fact that you did those things today that we're really, really difficult to do. Hmm. Um, and. In the middle of what you're walking through. Um, don't be surprised. if God, who is the God of miracles, the God of unexpected mm-hmm. The God of the extraordinary might ask you to give. In the middle of, a dry season. And you will know if that happens, that he's the one that did it, and that he sees you just like you did with Sally Joe. Mm-hmm. Um, and you will know that he loves you and he sees you, um, and he has not forgotten you. Um, so those are the things I would say, um, to someone that is, especially someone that's just been through a loss, Is that, you are loved and you're doing the extraordinary.
Kimber:Yeah. Hmm. I love that. Well, Julie Lynn, thank you so much for just spending time with us today and just sharing some of your, um, wisdom and experience with this it's not something that we just know how to do automatically, and so I think it's like so good to give ourselves grace, um, and also to seek that, you know, that growth and truth and how we can, Love better because think that our friends really, really need that from us, especially in those moments. So thank you so much for sharing with us today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Julie:Bye bye-Bye.
Kimber:Friends. I'm so glad you could join me and Julie on the show this week. Grief can seem like such a hard space to enter into with our people, but it's truly one of the areas we most need our community in. If you would like more support from Julie Lynn, I encourage you to visit her websites. Julie Lynn, ashley.com. And it's in the episode description. And in there you can learn more about the services that she provides. She has tons of vetted resources available as well. And you can also find her on Instagram At Julie Lynn, Ashley. Well friends, here's where the rubber meets the road. As we seek to lead the way by being the friend, we know we all need in our lives. I pray that you would find ways to enter into a friend's grief this week in either a small or a big way. And if this conversation blessed you, would you share it with a friend this week? Taking these conversations beyond the podcast player is my greatest desire with this series. And so I hope that this can act as like a springboard for some good talks as you go about your week. Also make sure you've subscribed to the podcast wherever you listen. So you don't miss an episode. And you can also sign up to be part of my newsletter crews so that you get a weekly preview directly to your email inbox of what will be on the podcast that week. Just visit your sister kimber.com and subscribe there. Friends. Thank you so much for spending part of your tea with us until next time. It's your sister Kimber.
