The Town Church / Fort Collins
The Town Church / Fort Collins
Introducing Formed!
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Welcome to Formed! Formed is a new podcast that explores topics around Christian formation—the process by which God graciously grows our love for him as he reveals more of himself to us.
In this first episode, Vince and Eric explore our fall 2026 formation focus of Corporate Worship by considering the significance that it is corporate.
Some questions that come up include - What does it mean to gather as a church for worship each week? What's lost if we cease to gather? What's the difference between gathering for corporate worship and gathering with Christians at other times? How often should I attend corporate worship?
You can subscribe to Formed on your favorite podcast app or by visiting thetownchurch.org/podcast.
Hey, this is Eric Reeves, a pastor here at the town church. I oversee Christian Formation. Hey, we started a brand new podcast called Formed to really explore Christian formation in general. For this fall, we're looking at specifically corporate worship, so we're just dicing it up in different ways. And then the other half of the podcast are focused on questions and topics that have been sent in by the people of the town church that we get to explore. So every week I have a different guest on and we have a conversation about it. If you would like to engage in Formed, you're going to need to look for it. You can just search the Town Church Formed on your favorite podcast platform or go to our website, thetownchurch.org slash podcast, and it's right there as well. Hope you enjoy, and I'd love to hear your feedback. Thanks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was a great intro. I think that's gonna I think that'll be the we just cut that and put that at the beginning of every episode.
SPEAKER_02Uh we're calling this this podcast formed. It's gonna be different than the other ones that we've done before. Um and it's we're making this for the lovely folks at the town church, particularly around the um topic of Christian formation. I'm Eric. I'll be hosting this through this fall, and I get a pastor here at the town church, and my role is Christian Formation. Before we get into this particular episode, let me give just a big overview of what this is and why we're doing this. Um as Christian formation, since this is growing out of that, what we mean by that is really our growth as Christians. We're trying to describe what it looks like to mature as a believer, to be formed by the Holy Spirit. This maturity is described different ways in the Bible. Sometimes we see it described as being formed to the likeness of Jesus. Sometimes we hear it as being renewed, renewing of our minds. Sometimes it's as being holy as God is holy. But then God, through Moses in Deuteronomy 6, and Jesus Himself puts it as a love of God with all of our being. And that's the love language that we've adopted and picked up on as a way to describe this: that our Christian formation, our growing maturity as Christians is a growing love for God, and then as a result, our lives look like it. So our approach to this is to realize that we actually can't force our love for God to grow, which is interesting since it's a command, the love command. But rather, our love for God grows in response to God initiating and revealing more of Himself to us. Now, God can He uses all of life to that end. In fact, it's one of the Holy Spirit's main jobs is to show us more of the Son and the more of the Father. But God commonly uses certain rhythms to show them more of himself, and we as a church have identified at least four. Um, the rhythms of regular rhythms of Christian community and doctrinal formation, Bible and prayer, and then also corporate worship. Which brings me to the reason for this podcast. A year ago, we began to focus on different rhythms of those four each semester. So we looked at Bible, we looked at prayer, and this semester we're gonna look at corporate worship. That's our focus this fall to explore that some more. So here's the plan, or at least the hope, with this podcast. We'll see how it actually goes. I think hope is a better word. Here's my desperate hope. Yeah. If I'm in the room, plan is probably not a good word to use. I have like words on pages, but we don't know if that's how it's gonna go. No, no, that's not. It's yeah. Uh every other week, I'm gonna invite on a guest to have a conversation about a particular element of corporate worship in particular. So we're gonna look at things like word and music and liturgy and service. And then on the off weeks, we're just gonna explore questions in general about Christian formation that have been sent in by people in our church body. And there's been some really good questions and topics sent in. So we'll look at those on the off week, and I'll have different guests I'll invite in to have a thoughtful, hopefully thoughtful conversation about it. So, this week, our very first week, we get to explore a specific element of corporate worship with a special guest. I'm honored. I'm honored. The topic we're gonna explore within corporate worship is the corporateness of worship. Like, why is what's the significance that it's a gathered worship of the local church? And so my guest, you've already heard his voice, is Vince Black this week. This is the little bio I put down for you, Vince. Oh, yeah. Let's listen. He is the lead and founding pastor of the town church. Vince's role is primarily focused on preaching and big picture vision of our church. How's that?
SPEAKER_00That's that's good. That's good. I I kinda I'm kind of going back to I'm a special guest. You are, you're very special. Yeah. I want I don't know if I want you to define special though. That may be where it goes off. You might mean special in different ways than I'm hoping. But yeah, here I am. Thanks for having me. Our special guest, welcome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks. Yeah. How about we just start here? Let's, as we get into thinking about exploring, what's the significance that this is a corporate worship gathering? I'm thinking on Sundays in particular, a gathering of our local church. Yeah. What's your own background and maybe how you grew up and perceptions of the church in particular with it being gathered?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's yeah, I mean, I I have a I have a I I my history is a love hate and love and then hate and then love, roller coaster relationship with the church. If I think I've voiced this before, if the church doors were open when I was younger, we were there. Yeah. Whatever it was. I mean, the I I get a little um little twitch in my neck whenever I hear that we're gonna start doing potlucks, because I mean I grew up on potlucks. We're doing a lot of potlucks as well. Yeah. Um, but if the doors were open, we were there. My parents were both heavily involved in the church, um, in the in the gathering of the church. My dad was an elder for a season, my mom was involved and invested in in a lot of different ways. And so that was my my growing up was that. I d I didn't know a category. I didn't have a category for not being involved in a regular gathering of the church. Um I don't I can't remember even if we were traveling, we would went to a church. So I you know, there were seasons when I as I got older as a teen and in in uh my especially my later years, I didn't love it. Um but it was a rhythm to the point where when I went to college and was kind of sort of um in a place of looking for my own way. Um and everything like I I had in the back of my mind I could abandon this if I wanted. I could abandon what I grew up in. That that's an option. Um I found myself in a place of of just knowing, well, that that's not even an option really. Now that I'm in that place, I I don't want that as an option. The local church is something I want to be a part of. Why is that? Well, I th I think it just very simply it was just a rhythm. Uh huh. So I I don't know that I had the the tools to know why it was good for me in those years. I j it was just a rhythm. It just it felt strange to you know, wake up on a Sunday and not be a be with other people. It was just such so much of a rhythm. Yeah. I don't know if my love for the local church grew until um to the point where now where I am now, until I was involved in um in some w in some ways of leading in the church. Um I'll fast forward. There's a there's a long story and we don't have a t a ton of time, but uh I mean it until I got to North Dakota and I was a pastor in North Dakota, and it was a I mean it was in a s a town of about thirty thousand people, so a small town um and the church was a lot um a lot of the church was made up of rural people, uh farmers, people who had lived in North Dakota for a while, so very different than what my experience had been, and very different than me and what I wanted. Um, but I grew to love the local church in part because they loved us. Um and so whenever we began, I mean we Kirsten and I had begun to think about missions, is that our future? What do we do? Where are we headed? Um in the in my mind it was like no my I have a deep love for the local church and see the beauty of the church by um knowing how to love people but also being loved by those people from some very we'll get into this, some from some people who I probably wouldn't have rubbed shoulders with outside of um the the church. So it wasn't until then, but was that 2005 to 2009 or ten where I really had a deep love for the local church? How about you? What's your history, background with the church? Sure.
SPEAKER_02So then you're leading this, you can do whatever you want. Oh, I like that. So then in 2009, you move here, yeah, you plant this church. Have like give us an insight into your affection, maybe lack thereof at times for coming on a Sunday morning and gathering with the church. Is that is it sometimes is that a battle? Or is it for you, have you seen it mostly as a joy, or does that vary a bit?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a it it's a hard question because I'm I'll put to put it crassly, I'm paid to be here. Um, but there have been seasons where, depending on what's going on, whether it be conflict or hard things that are going on in the church or hard decisions that we've had to make as elders that haven't necessarily gone well, there are seasons when it it is harder for me to be involved and invested on a Sunday morning. I feel the tension, I feel the um some of those things, the conflict, and so that's been hard. But I would say over the last four or five years, and we've talked about this a lot, our church has changed, and we have a a group of people who I love being here. And I've a I have a hard time not um being here. Even you know, if I have a Sunday off or I'm on vacation or whatever, I I long to be here, be with these people. It's a a weird group of lovely people. Our people are amazing. Yeah, that's what that's what I meant. What did I say? Yeah, they are. What's your background like?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh so I grew up in rural Iowa and we were always going to church. In fact, we moved to the small town that I grew up in because of the church. So we were plugged in every Sunday. We had a wana on Thursday nights. Um we were we were always there. I would not have been able to articulate the what the beauty or the value of the gathered church is. It's just something that we did.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, I don't know that I really ever questioned it. Uh certainly as a kid growing up, there's weeks I don't want to be there. I want to leave sooner than my mom wants to leave, for example. We'd be sitting in the car like for 30 minutes. Yeah and and she's still engaging with people in church, but we're ready to go. That was that was frequent. So it was just something we always did. I didn't really question it, something we always did. When I got to when I moved out of the house and college, same thing. I went to the same church because I went my college with my hometown. Um then when I moved to Denver, we started attending um a couple different churches regularly uh for a few years. And then there was a church that um had like a ministry as an offshoot of the main, I would call it the mother church that was like for young adults, like people in their 20s, basically, maybe 10 to 15 people. Some leadership changes happened there, and so that kind of spun off and became his own house church-ish kind of thing. I helped to lead that for a little bit. Um and then uh that stopped. And I I felt uh this is a longer story, but kind of burned out in different ways. And I didn't there was a season in there when we were living Aurora where I didn't attend a church at all for uh several months, and my rationale was because we don't really do what we say we're gonna do anyway at the in the church. Um I feel like we don't really take it all that seriously. We say we want to do or should do all of these things, we don't. I'm just kind of I guess jaded or cynical or something. And so instead I take a bike ride on Sunday mornings with my wife, and that felt amazing. She's actually the one who got me going back to church regularly. She found the church and got me plugged back in. Um so I've been I was through a season of that. We moved up to Fort Collins, we started plugged it plugged back into a church right away um and landed in the town church and been regularly um attending ever since.
SPEAKER_00Um I think it's interesting that neither of us uh both of us were in the church, in the building, invested in the church as kids. Every every chance it was. We I don't know that either of us could voice the beauty of it at the time. Um and while we couldn't voice it, I bet we knew it because I mean it was just a part of our lives. I and I I say that because I'm sure there are parents who might be listening who think our kids get nothing out of this, they don't see the value of this. Um but both of our stories have the same the same trajectory of no, there was great value. While we couldn't have explained it as an eight-year-old, it became a part of who we were as a regular rhythm, which is I I think a beautiful gift from God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because what you pick up on is you're a Christian and this is a rhythm of a Christian. Right. Even though I couldn't have explained all the reasons why or all that sort of thing, that becomes ingrained. Right. I'm a Christian, we we go to we go with other Christians and attend worship regularly. Right. Um which I mean it's really really valid, isn't it? That is what the church does biblically. Um ecclesia meaning assembly. Right. That's that's how that's what we translate into church. And so the church to be a member of the church is to be a gatherer with other Christians. Um and I picked that up growing up, even though I couldn't nobody explain it to me. You should pick that up. So there there is a lot of value in that as parents, hopefully some encouragement. A lot of it is being picked up. Um let me ask this question What actually are we talking about when we talk about corporate worship or the gathered church? Um it as opposed to maybe a small group or a gathering with other other Christians to do a Bible study or something like that. We're talking more specific than just Christians getting together, which in a sense is a sort of gathering of the church. Yeah. That's not what we're talking about here though. So let's just talk through through that. What is what maybe is significant or unique or a marker of the gathered local church in our setting on a Sunday morning here at the college. Nope. No, the corner of which is nothing like college, Timberline in Harmony. Yeah. There's just the building, right? That's what the church is. How however, okay, so here's a quick little aside. There is something so significant about the building. Yep. It's not the church, you're right. But there is there is it does it create a space that is needed for a gathering to take place. So, okay, yep, there's some value there.
SPEAKER_00Now the church is the people. Yeah. We've we've said that forever and ever. The church is the people. Um, the question you're asking is like, what what actually makes up the church? What's what's unique about the church? Instead of I'll I'll I'll give an example just as a like instead of oh, there just happens to be we we go to breakfast at Silver Grill, and there just happens to be six Christians there, also, that's the church, then, right? It's people. Um instead of that, what makes it unique that we would gather every Sunday?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, why are we focusing on this fall on that unique corporate worship gathering on a Sunday morning?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You're asking me that we're we're talking about this. You and I both are. So this isn't just me.
SPEAKER_02So we get to provide some answers now, huh? That's right. Or some thoughts. We're waiting on the caller to call in. Yeah. There is something about um uh I want to use the right words here. About being in a gathering that has some structure that like a God ordained structure to it. Right. So there's certain offices of the church, of the local church, with deacons and elders and responsibilities there, and some God-given spiritual care and shepherding for the people that's unique to that particular gathering.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, the way I've said it for years in our foundations class is that we we believe the church is made up of three sort of d distinct groups. Biblically, what we see the church being made up of are the people, the the members, the people of the church. Um, and there are elders and there are deacons. And so those those are the those are the biblical categories of people that we see as a part of the church. Um, and so the gathering of the church, um, what we see regularly on a Sunday um has has those elements involved. So there's the the leadership, the the loving uh authority of the elders who are present. Um there are uh deacons who are present, um, and and these aren't requirements, we're not requiring deacons and elders to be here, but they are. Um they're present as well to serve and care for the the practical physical needs of the body, and then the people, the people who come in. And it just so happens, and we didn't even talk about this beforehand, but it just so happens that as the doors of a building are opened and the people of God are gathering, that others who are interested might might also come in who are not yet Christians. Um and and we desire that to happen as well, uh, to be a place of that too. So those are the three categories, elders, deacons, uh the people are a part of a church on a Sunday morning, those those are present. I think we um uh an elements of the church are uh the word taught, um, the Bible preached in some way or taught in some way, um, prayers prayed. Um there are the the ordinances that are practiced. Okay, uh that happens with regularity for us. Uh the Lord's Supper weekly for um baptism as needed, and we'd love to increase that as needed and see that happening. That's a piece of it. Um uh there's also um there's there's a care element there, so as the people are gathered, we're caring for one another. These are all from scripture, we're able to encourage one another, care for each other, pray for one another, um uh uh exhort one another when that's needed. Uh there's discipline that happens in the church uh as a part of the church. So um those are elements of my what are what am I leaving out?
SPEAKER_02Um Well, I I I don't know if I'm just gonna add more things uh to that list. I it made me think of uh and you're welcome to check out this article if you want. Jonathan Lehman put an article on the The Gospel Coalition about his some of his thoughts on this. And hit his approach was the the the local church is kind of like an embassy where it's an outpost of sorts of the kingdom of God, the in-breaking of the kingdom of God. And a piece of that is a gathering of people who are um corporately like a big the gathering, not just individually, giving allegiance to Jesus, worshiping and exalting God for who he is. And there's also something about oh, it being not only for believers, but there's also gonna be unbelievers there. So there's an evangelistic kind of bent to it where it clearly identifies um who's who of sorts. I mean, not only do we see that through discipline, but we also see that through the Lord's Supper, for example. When we whenever we take the Lord's Supper, we're always really clear to say this is for believers and believers only. But there's still a call there for unbelievers where the gathering of the local church, the gathering of Jesus' people together, there's several elements that happen here that you don't get like in a small group. There's some overlap, but you don't get in a small group or in a a Bible study or a bunch of Christian friends getting together to pray together or that sort of thing. Those are beautiful expressions, but they aren't the same thing.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Um I wonder I wonder if some ways to flesh some of this out is by just asking some more questions and let's see what comes up, shall we? Shall we? We shall. How about this question? What's lost if a Christian chooses to not gather or gather regularly with the local church for corporate worship?
SPEAKER_00The first thing that comes to my mind is that they they are lost. And what I mean by that is we the the people who do gather miss out on their presence. So that's one thing. And I say that first because that's one thing we'd we often put at the bottom of the list if we think about it. But when I think about well maybe I won't go to church today, I rarely think about what that might do to the people who are there. I I most often think, what what do I gain from this from being home, sitting on my back porch or whatever? But yeah, so I think that's lost. I think it's a detriment to the church when um you, me, when the people aren't there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it seems like this is going to sound like a too heavy of a word. I don't mean this harshly there seems to me to be a lack of uh I'm not gonna use that word. I think it's gonna be too confusing. There seems to be a contradiction. I'll use that word. Um so maybe a lack or a loss of I'm just gonna use it integrity. I don't mean moral integrity. I mean being who you are and then living in that way. So for example if it is true that a Christian is part of the big sea church which is absolutely true and it's also true that what the church does is gather regularly then it's a contradiction to be a member of the church without also gathering regularly. The Bible has no category for that. So there's some sort of loss of this is my identity who I am by the grace of God but I'm not um living in ways that are consistent with that particularly in this um mode of gathering. Right. Yeah I think that I think there's a loss there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I think I think those words are are helpful that there's not a biblical category for a Christian who is not a part of a local church. Now we could and we'll get into this hopefully we could talk about what does it mean to be a part what do we what do we mean when we say that um we're trying to keep it in the category of you know the the gathered people on a on a Sunday morning but yeah I think that's lost. I think um I mean we I think we could hit hit a bunch of things really quickly. I think things that are lost are um the edification of the saints is lost. I'll just I'll put it on me so I'll just say if I don't go I'm not edify I'm not encouraged and edified by the other people. I'm not challenged by other people and and I mean that in a couple different ways I'm not I'm not um I'm not known if I'm not if I'm not with other people regularly and if I'm not known by other people in some in some regular format I'm probably not challenged on the things I need to be challenged on in my sin call to my sin. I'm also not challenged in my selfishness. We come to a a gathering of a group of people who um many of them maybe all of them are not like me not like you that's a challenge right that's a that challenges our our our selfishness it it pokes at that um I I think of I often think of uh the screw tape letters when I think about this like there there are several um sections in that book where they talk about that gathering you know the the annoying person who is across the room or this person who talks too much or the person across the room who doesn't sing well and how those are are are things that get at us. But I I think our selfishness is challenged when we gather with a group of people. So I I can think of a lot of things that are challenged in that way. I mean I don't have a great voice uh but I'll be honest there are other people in our church who don't have great voices and but there it's the the joyful noise that we're making to worship God. I have to intentionally discipline myself to keep my focus on the fact that we're worshiping Jesus and me not being annoyed by this or that person. Kids I I need I need little kids running all over the place. I need to know that that's a part of the kingdom of God. Um and I need to hear the the clatter of things being dropped and the you know all all of those things. They challenge my selfishness. That's good. I'll stop there.
SPEAKER_02What what do you I think maybe something else that is lost is that we get in some ways a foretaste of what's been bought for us in eternity as we gather on sunday mornings as part of the local body. So by not gathering we're losing that you're losing the foretaste yeah maybe some of the I would argue not just some of the but you you're you're losing a gift really and a joy that maybe we don't always doesn't always feel like a joy or a gift but there is a shaping that's happening that in some ways interesting to think about is preparing us for what we get to do for eternity not on a harp not playing playing a harp on a cloud or something like that but we're gonna be gathering with a whole lot of people who aren't like us.
SPEAKER_00So it doesn't be a piece of it anymore which would be beautiful. But we'll have one thing in common and that is our our worship of Jesus which is a picture of what we experience on Sunday. The problem with our Sunday gathering is we're uh on this side of Jesus restoration of us is what we're experiencing is all of our annoyances, all of our selfishness, all of our distractions, all of the things that that that blind us from Jesus when Jesus returns and renews and restores all things that the the sin will be no more. So we'll gather with a group of people who aren't like us but we won't be annoyed by the people who aren't like us. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and could it be that God's even using all those annoyances to shape us now. Yeah yeah and in some ways man could those even be gifts yeah which is which is part of the local church gathering right it's diverse people which you were getting to is the priesthood of believers which is this is plural we need each other's gifts we need each other's personalities even though we don't always like it all of those things are needed by us in the gathering of the local church for corporate worship on a Sunday which isn't fully replicated in a Bible study or in a small group um to some degree there's some overlap but isn't fully repli replicated.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything else that comes to mind that's lost that we lose out on if we're not gathering I mean yeah simple but um profound I think I think the w what we talked about even in our childhood, I think a thing that's lost in not gathering is excuse me, is being formed by the regularity of being with people. I mean the the things we do regularly form us and shape us and we can see all kinds of bad habits that have shaped us and we can name them and we've seen all kinds of good things that have shaped us and formed us. Um and so I think I think we're lo we're losing that we're losing a piece of um I don't know if this is what you're getting at earlier. We live a lose a piece of Christian identity. This is what it means to be a Christian. You gather with other Christians. Um is that too simple to say like it that is what it means to be a Christian. You're not saved uh uh alone into your own kingdom you're saved into a people you're you're purchased into a people um and so it we're formed by that shaped by that it is what it means to be a Christian.
SPEAKER_02Yeah in many ways corporate worship is the end and not only a means to another end. So for example it's not we don't just come and worship corporately because we want to see God and have our love for him grow. Allah's a piece of it we also do it because that's what it means to be a Christian. That's what we get to do. And that man um I'll I'll stop there on that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I do think it's beautiful though I I mean we've we've tried to talk to our boys about this the the um intergenerational mix that we see the diversity that we see our boys yeah I think there can can I call out names specifically? Sure. It's positive so it's not I'm not gonna I'm not gonna throw anybody under the bus. Doug Drees has been very intentional about approaching our boys at different times to just have conversation with them. And um outside of the gathering of the church I cannot think of another place where that kind of thing would happen. Yeah. There we don't have another gathering where our 14 year old son is rubbing shoulders with a guy who's got a ton of wisdom a ton of insight into this life and has been following Jesus and made some mistakes but also knows those and and loves Jesus. I think that's beautiful and we miss that our we miss that if we're not a part of what's going on and I could I could name fifty people who we see that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah there's also a sense of part of the gift I think of the gathering is that this is a long game. Yeah this attending a good local church regularly for corporate worship on Sundays shapes us over years and decades and decades. Where I think some of the tension is um I went to church this morning I came home and I don't notice anything discernibly different. So about my own life is what you're saying that's right. Did did I use my time well when I could have been doing X, Y, or Z instead. Yeah that is a strong temptation I think but uh helpful reminders and we're talking long game and also it's also to your point earlier, it's not just about how you're affected, although that's a piece of it. It's also um how God is using you to affect others and just simply the worship of him period as a value um that he has regardless of how affected you feel or not um I wonder okay so this all is an experiment. This whole podcast is an experiment.
SPEAKER_00It is now but it won't be the next time no it'll just be a little bit you're gonna nail it Eric it's gonna be amazing.
SPEAKER_02Let's ask some questions that maybe maybe people have that don't typically ask and flesh us out some more so how about this one how many times a month should I engage in corporate worship? Like give me the give me the bare minimum or give me the the standard to which I should aspire to these are the questions be a good these are the questions everybody's thinking and wishing hoping that we would address.
SPEAKER_00I suspect there may be some yes well it says in James chapter no it doesn't say in the Bible um yeah I I mean I I don't know that it's a it's a matter of figuring out the number and the the frequency um it's both I think it's a couple things. It's one it's a it is a discipline. I mean it's a discipline to get up, get ready, get in the car and and gather. That's a discipline um so it is that and it's also something that as that discipline continues we're formed and shaped by it and and hopefully it it does become a joy. It becomes a piece of us so I'm I'm hesitant to put a I m my view is as many times as you're able to find to find yourself here to get yourself here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah it does seem like even the the word should is wrong in this question. Right? Um in the ideal world we would all we'd always every week see it as a privilege and something we get to do. Which is true but we don't always feel it. Yeah. So at least the word that we've used when we talk about this as a spiritual formation rhythm is we use the word regular. Yeah. Knowing that there's gonna be exceptions, we're gonna be sick, we're gonna be vacation those things happen. It's not a sin to not be here on a Sunday but have to be a regular rhythm is is really I think where we're gonna feel seeing it to participate in it being a gift.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I think going back to what we said earlier it is what Christians do. Yeah. So I think it ought to be the norm of the Christian life not the exception. Yeah. Um and and so I but that that my uh my hope would be is that that becomes the joyful norm. And but I think that takes discipline. I don't I don't necessarily think it's a joyful norm because of some great show we're putting on. I don't mean yeah yeah I really don't like oh I really want to be there because it's going to be amazing. They finally got air conditioning or whatever it is. But it is a it's a discipline that that hopefully forms a joyful anticipation of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah it may be helpful helpful to consider why is it weekly so our current rhythm is weekly on a Sunday morning. Well it's that way because the Jewish rhythm was weekly they met on Saturdays we meet on Sundays and the reason why we meet on Sundays is because of the resurrection of Jesus being on a Sunday so the early church moved it to a Sunday. So it's weekly but then the Jewish rhythm is rooted in creation itself God created in seven days and he took one day for rest.
SPEAKER_00That's where that came from six days.
SPEAKER_02Oh thank you created six days seventh seventh day for rest and so you could argue that this whole rhythm is rooted in creation itself as a weekly rhythm that God knew was good for humanity. And so there's there's not only oh we think here's some probably good ideas for it but this is really God's idea that's good for humanity.
SPEAKER_00What if I want to go hunting should I feel guilt about missing on a Sunday? Because you know I'm a big hunter. You're a big big hunter in the mountains.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh yeah I mean I that's where I think the word regular is helpful.
SPEAKER_00You're avoiding the question.
SPEAKER_02What what I would never encourage is like I'm just gonna take a month off and go hunting. Yeah you're you're you're missing something significant by that I think and also I think there may be a way to go hunting and still keeping some regular rhythms on Sunday morning. Maybe take some more time off and work if you really want to go hunting that badly Vince although your work is being pastor so you have some flexibility I love hunting. Yeah and you love hunting okay here's here's another question.
SPEAKER_00What if I just rather I don't know be some other Christian friends we'll talk about the Bible a little bit and we'll pray together and we'll encourage each other and that feels way more significant anyway because I like them and they know me more can I just do that instead yes but I yeah like I mean we're we're beating the same drama I think you can um I think you're missing out and I think the church is missing out the gathered church is missing out on you too there's something unique that happens on a on a Sunday morning at a gathering of the people that doesn't necessarily happen in a group of four or five or six people around a you know fire in the mountains. There's something unique that happens here under the leadership the loving leadership of elders under the the taught word of God um the the ordinances celebrated um and also I'll I'll keep going back to what I've said there's something unique and uh it's a unique gift of God to be with a group of people who are not like you and who who are not just the people you want to hang out with. It's a gift of God to to be in a room and to be encouraged by and challenged by people who you might not ever circle up with. Which is why we have for years tried really hard to not segregate out different age groups and categories. Of course those groups form and we see some some uh benefits in the in peers gathering with peers so children's ministry and youth and that sort of thing and um but we really have tried hard n in our you know even in our small groups not to section them out by well this is the young adult small group and this is the there's something unique that happens on a Sunday morning by being with a group of people who are not just like you. So is it wrong to circle up with a group of friends on a Sunday instead it's not necessarily I wouldn't say it was sin, but I think you're missing out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I think it's also important to note what we're not saying. What we're not saying is that um corporate worship needs to be a certain number of people sure a certain size. What we're not saying that um it has to look just how the American church does it. Right. The global church can look very different. We're also not saying it has to be on a Sunday morning.
unknownSure.
SPEAKER_02There's not sin in having a Saturday evening gathering of the local church for corporate worship. We're not saying that um and so if if there's some variance in what it can look like to be a part of the of corporate worship um what what about those who hesitate to engage because they're just having a really hard time finding what they feel is a good local church. Maybe bouncing a bunch church to church maybe just really hesitant to engage in general so maybe we're watching a live stream of a church that we actually are fully behind but then it's in a different state what's maybe some encouragement for those who are struggling regularly gathering the local church because they have a heart they feel like they have a hard time finding a good local church.
SPEAKER_00Yeah that is a great question I think I think probably that's experienced by a lot of people um probably a lot of people who have landed at the town church have settled at the town church right yeah yeah some compromises maybe yeah and and that's uh I think it's beautiful that they've settled that they've that they have you know given up on some of the things they've they've held on to with a tight fist.
SPEAKER_02Which as a quick aside I would imagine that you and I Vince both have preferences that the town church isn't doing that we hold with open hands as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah yeah so um yeah I wouldn't I would say that um at some point uh you the person has to see the value in gathering regularly presently physically with other people that there's value in that that that you weren't and and no one else was um saved into the kingdom alone um but you were saved into a group of people and those people um being present in your life uh is very valuable um the the thought came to mind I thought you were going a different direction with the question like there are some people who um j just for years have bounced around different churches in Fort Collins and they see that as positive. Oh I know I love it. I love I'd love to see what other churches are doing and and I see myself as somebody who um who's able to encourage different churches along along the way um which oh that's beautiful I mean that's a beautiful desire I think though that you're missing out and and a people are missing out in being known regularly um being really known in a place with a people um so I guess my encouragement to those who have a hard time finding a fit is uh this is gonna sound really like practical and maybe over oversimplifying something but choose a choose a time frame and say by the end of X time I'm going to connect to a church with all of its problems of which I'm bringing some of those to the church of with all of its problems I'm gonna commit to a people in a church a church that I can commit to at least in for the most part doctrinally and I can commit to uh with to the people I'm gonna be there. Kirsten and I we um when we moved to Chicago I was going to graduate school uh we looked for churches there are a million churches in the Chicago area and we looked for churches um we started looking and we said by the end of I think it was by the end of October and we moved there in August. By the end of October we will choose a church and we just set a date set a time and said this is it. And the church that we we landed on wasn't the church that was like it it you know checked all the boxes but it was a church we said this is the one we're gonna commit to and we were there for over three years and really grew to love some of the people who were a part of it.
SPEAKER_02Well and that's part of it isn't it making sure that um you're holding tightly to certain boxes that should be checked like are they are we preaching the gospel is this rooted in scripture those sorts of things as well as having a willingness to hope hold with open hands maybe the secondary and tertiary things. Yeah and then commit um and be and be willing to be shaped by that people by God's grace and join into the church.
SPEAKER_00Yep. So the the other side of that when when should I leave a church?
SPEAKER_02Yeah I I tend to view this question um I probably lean toward uh sticking around maybe even a little bit longer than what some would with a couple caveats. One being are they still preaching the gospel? Yeah. So is there like a a primary theological Adherence to what the Bible says is true. If that shifts, then I then I think there's a strong case to make. That's probably the biggest one. The other ones, I think, is actually a harder case to make. Often I see people bouncing from churches because they have a hard time finding community in a particular church. Community not to downplay it at all is extremely important. But I I sometimes wonder if we're a little too quick to move on to someplace else if we don't if we don't feel like we've gotten community within the time frame that we think that we should have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I don't know. What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think uh I think that's a big one. Gospel, if the if the gospel is not being proclaimed, if the word of God is not primary, if it's not the authority over all things. Yes. Um I do think uh we may disagree here, or there may be some disagreement about this, but I do think some philosophical choices may be a reason. Uh meaning, you know, like uh this church or that church chooses to put all of its money toward this thing, and philosophically I just can't get behind that. Um so I think that might be um I I I I I'm gonna say this somewhat loosely. I think um a conflict that is unresolved and you see no way that it would be resolved in such a way um that would allow you and the other person to continue to worship um freely. Um that that one may be pushed to the front of the list for a lot of people. Well, I I had a run in with this person, it's over, I'm done. Um so I I say that one somewhat loosely, but I I think there are some cases to be made there. I think with all of these things, no matter what they are, um one should never leave a church um without talking about it with the appropriate people, with the leaders of the church. Um, with it could be because maybe there's something that's a blind spot that the leaders want to know about and they don't, or uh they they don't know about it yet. Um so I think in in all of these cases, just leaving a church, as the kids say, ghosting. Um is that what they say? I I think so. At least they used to, uh, two old guys sitting in a room talking about what the kids say. Uh yeah, I think just leaving without saying anything is is is detrimental for everyone, you included.
SPEAKER_02And the big point with this particular podcast is if you do come to the point of leaving a church, it's not an option to then just not plug into another one. That's right. That's not what a Christian does. Yeah. That that's that's really strong.
SPEAKER_00But I don't think it's strong. I think it's right. I think it's true. I think the a cr this is what a Christian does. They gather with other Christians. So to leave a church based on whatever reason and to not then find another one is not what a Christian does. I'm not saying therefore you're not a Christian. Yeah, I'm saying therefore you ought to connect to a church. Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm j I don't know if I want to go here. I'm just thinking that there's so many people's stories include a lot of hurt from the church. Yours and mine included, right, Vince? Yeah. Um, and often that is used as a reason to no longer gather with the local church. Like the phrase, I love Jesus, but I hate his people kind of thing. Um my encouragement is to not allow that to work its way in as an excuse to stop gathering with the local church for corporate worship. All right. Well, hope I don't know if this was helpful for our listener or not. If we're gonna have any listeners, I don't even know. I don't know. On a scale of one to ten, Vince, what do you think? Will that be helpful? I'm gonna say I'm gonna say it was a 6.4.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm gonna try to get a 6.5 then next week. No, I think it I I I'm hoping it was helpful. Yeah, and and you said this before, but I want to say it again. Our desire, I think, our desire in this, my desire, at least in the things I said, were not to guilt anyone. It wasn't to guilt anyone or pressure anyone or force someone's hand into doing something they dep they don't want to do or don't see that yet. My hope, our hope as elders, is that w we are the kind of people in the kind of place, the kind of gathering that, yeah, we've got some quirks, we've got some baggage, we've got some herds, we've got all of those things, but we're the kind of of people in place that that regular gat regularly gathering would become become a joyful discipline. That's my hope. And it may take time. And that's okay, there's grace for that. It may take time for people to connect and plug in and and see the value of that. But I'm confident I'm confident uh uh that you you will see the value only by being a part of experiencing the value experiencing it. I don't think reading a book or being forced into it is going to do that. You're going to see the value by experiencing the value.
SPEAKER_02Over time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Here's the plan for this fall. Next week podcast, remember it's every other week, it's an off week next week. We're going to look at some topics and questions that have been sent in by others at the town church. If you have topics or questions that you would love to be considered, um ask me. Uh, there's a link that went out through the top three things. If you didn't get that, no, actually I just sent out a message to church center. If you didn't get that, let me know. I'm be happy to send you that link or just email me, eric e-r-i-c at the townchurch.org. Um, I think next week we're gonna look at some man, some some really good questions. Um two weeks. And two, no, next week is the one that's church source questions and topics.
SPEAKER_00Don't listen to me.
SPEAKER_02Listen to the one after that, we're gonna look at liturgy as part of our element of corporate worship. So if this was helpful, maybe let me know. That way I can adjust things if I need. And if it's not helpful, let me know too. But be kind. Okay. Love you. We will talk to you later. Bye.
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