From Clashing to Collaborating: Using the Enneagram to Lead Like a Pro

Let’s be real: working with other humans is one part strategy, two parts vibes, and sometimes just a teeny tiny dash of emotional rollercoaster.

That is why in this episode we're digging into the magic of the Enneagram! 

We’re joined by Sarah Wallace, founder of Enneagram MBA and host of The Enneagram at Work podcast. She’s breaking down how understanding your type (and your teammates’) can transform your leadership style, fix messy communication, and make your meetings way less awkward.

We cover:
 👉 The real reason your Type 6 teammate isn’t trying to kill the vibe
👉 How Enneagram types show up at work (and where they totally clash)
👉 The compatibility tricks you didn’t know you needed
👉 How to use your instinctual subtype for smarter branding + marketing

Whether you’re a team of two, twenty, or just trying to vibe with your VA, this episode is a masterclass in working better together.

Work With Sarah: https://www.enneagrammba.com/

Follow Sarah on IG: https://www.instagram.com/enneagrammba/

Checkout the Enneagram At Work Podcast :  https://www.enneagramatworkpodcast.com/

🏁 Connect With Us On Instagram!

• Not Nice Clever
• Candice Carcioppolo
• Kat Torre

📣 Amplify by Not Nice. Clever. is the ace up your sleeve. It's a hands on, workshop style delivery full of replicable frameworks, and actionable strategies that you team can put in place right away.

Find out more HERE.

🎙 Book Kat and Candice to speak at your next event, summit or workshop HERE

Transcript

There are skeptics out there. I did not create the Enneagram, so I am not offended if, you know, people think it's astrology or, you know, want something else. There's a lot of different ways that somebody can define it and think about it. It could be a personality assessment. It could be just the diagram. Enneagram means nine types on a diagram. I really like to use it as a problem solution.

framework. I have found it to be the most useful and the most sticky unless somebody is deeply steeped into Myers-Briggs. They don't always remember their four letters or the order and they definitely don't remember their coworkers. Whereas the Enneagram can be a quick, type nine. I tend to strive to feel at peace. And my coworker type seven striving to feel excited. Okay.

that can be a launch pad for me. Like that's a little bit easier to remember. How do you see this show up and help teams? It can impact everything from giving feedback to somebody to how does my leadership style impact my team and their effectiveness. What are some signs or symptoms of communication breakdowns that you see that could be supported by your, you the work that you do with the Neogram MBA?

I think the most common one by far is around a teammate being perceived as negative. So this happens a lot to our type six teammates who are seen as complaining, as being the Debbie Downer, the devil's advocate, the skeptic. They are the people that are thinking, wait a minute, do we have a parachute just in case? Do we actually have a net below?

And they're asking these really important questions, but seem like they're popping the balloons of all the exciting ideas of people who want to go far and move fast. Okay, clever crew. Today we're diving into a powerful concept that is going to be a game changer when it comes to how you communicate and manage your business as a busy entrepreneur. And I'll share with you today that we've got an incredible guest. name is Sarah Wallace, founder of Enneagram MBA.

and host of the Enneagram at Work podcast. Sarah's a go-to expert for helping professionals use the Enneagram to grow their business, communication, and skills. Sarah, thank you for joining us on Not Nice Clever today. All right, well, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to this. Yeah, and Clever Crew, for those of you listening in, Candice submitted her questions ahead of time because she wasn't able to make this recording. So I'm doing it solo. I'm going to do our Clever Crew justice here.

And don't worry guys, Candice brought the heat with her questions. So we're going to get into it today. And I think Sarah, where I'd love to start, because if you're listening and you've been a part of the crew for a while, we've touched on this topic before, but nowhere in near as depth that you cover it. So for those folks, Sarah, who maybe are thinking a neogram, like what, like what is it, how are you defining it and how do you see it? Just, I think that'd be a great place to start today.

Yeah, there's a lot of different ways that somebody can define it and think about it. It could be just the diagram, is any a gram means nine and then, you you're on a diagram, nine types on a diagram. It could be a personality assessment. I really like to use it as a problem solution framework. And so rather than spending

too much time looking at, okay, which box do I fit into? It's understanding why something keeps happening or why there is friction in a relationship or kind of understand kind of the reason behind something and using it more as a tool than just kind of a fun description.

love that because we're huge fans of frameworks over here at Not Nice Clever. Candice is a former middle school history teacher, so we love a good framework. And I'm curious, how did you get started in this? Because there's so many personality assessments out there. There's so many different ways that you can assess your skills and your strengths and your opportunities to improve. Like, why, why enneagram for you? Where did that start?

Yeah, that's a great question because there are skeptics out there and I did not create the Enneagram, so I am not offended if people think it's astrology or- Right, right. See, and I love astrology. It's just like so... Everybody has their own flavor, right? There's things, yes. There's things you can glean from all of it. I have found it to be the most useful

and the most sticky. And that is why I have chosen it as, you know, compared to all the others. A lot of ones that I'll run into are Myers-Briggs and also can be incredibly helpful. And I know that one has a long history. Most of the time though, unless somebody is deeply, you know, steeped into Myers-Briggs, they don't always remember their four letters or the order and they definitely don't remember their coworkers.

Whereas the Enneagram can be a quick, type nine, I tend to strive to feel at peace. And my coworker, type seven, striving to feel excited. Okay, that can be a launch pad for me. Like that's a little bit easier to remember. And I have found a lot of professionals using it, more and more being open to it. I think for that very reason, for that,

team collaboration, as well as self-awareness. It's just something that can be, that people remember a little bit easier. And then we try and make it fun and really useful at the same time. Yeah. And so what is a Neogram MBA's like TLDR of each of the nine types? Like what would be the elevator pitch for each of, cause I know everybody listening is going to fast forward to their number if they know what it is when they're.

watching this episode. Okay. We'll do it short and sweet. And the way that we approach the types isn't necessarily as a noun, but it's more of a verb. So this is what you tend to do, not necessarily all day, every day, every single time. But we tend to have a go-to tool or strategy that we use. And I like that rather than saying, this is who you are, Kat. That seems a little bit, yes. And so

We'll go kind of around the diagram. Our type ones are striving to feel perfect, right and wrong, good or bad. It's a focus of theirs. Type two, striving to feel connected, very relationship oriented, rapport building. Type three, striving to feel outstanding. They want to be seen as successful in whatever it is that they do and they make that success typically look very easy.

Our type fours are striving to feel unique. I want to be one of a kind, different, do something that's totally never been done before. This is kind of that Steve Jobs. I want to make things beautiful and make a dent in the universe. Type five is striving to feel detached. I want to be self-sufficient and I really expect you to be self-sufficient as well. Type six, striving to feel secure, safe, assessing risks.

planning contingency plans for what might go wrong with all those risks and threats out in the world. What might go wrong? Our type sevens almost the opposite, striving to feel excited. They're more focused on what might go right. What are the possibilities? Glasses have full rose colored glasses. I'm drawn towards new and exciting adventures. The next new idea. Type eight, striving to feel powerful. And this isn't, I think some people have a...

a feeling about this, maybe women more so than men, but it's really just the power to produce a result. And I want to be in control of myself in this situation. And then last but not least is our type nine, striving to feel peaceful. I want to feel peaceful inside and I want to be in a peaceful environment on the outside.

And so I'm going to avoid conflict. might avoid difficult conversations. I want to maintain my comfort and really work towards harmony with my group, with the people in my life. Well, that is a fantastic mini masterclass in all the different types. I love that you said that it's a verb too, instead of like your whole identity. I feel like that's an important distinction when using this as a tool. And OK, so let's get into like

You mentioned team cohesion and team dynamics. Let's talk about compatibility. Are there some standard rules or rules of thumb that you operate by when assessing compatibility or being least compatible? What do you look for when you do read and work with teams? OK, this is a top question, very common question. And I wish there was something really fun that would be like, type this and type this, really compatible or not compatible.

At the end of the day, comes down to how self-aware is that individual? How much personal professional growth have they done? How much emotional intelligence do they have in order to be compatible? Some tendencies of each type, like kind of the what might go wrong of the type six that I mentioned versus what might go right in a type seven situation.

You could see somebody who operates with that lens of the world, they might butt heads in a group dynamic, but that doesn't mean that sixes and sevens aren't necessarily compatible. They can be incredibly compatible and bring, fill in the gaps for one another. And if the six is really dialed in and self-aware and the seven's really dialed in and self-aware, they could be a great team because they see kind of different pieces.

Something else that can come up between types is their relation to kind of jumping into action or wanting to slow it down and be a little bit more thoughtful. Our threes, our sevens, our eights tend to be more, let's jump in, let's go far, let's go fast, leap in the net will appear. And we have other types that

sixes, ones, well, really the others for one reason or the other. Kind of want to slow it down and let's think about it. Let's do a pros and cons list or let's ask the rest of the group. What do they want to do? How are they feeling about this? And then let's make a decision. So again, it can be really compatible, but that could also cause some friction in a relationship.

but it does come down to self-awareness. I think that that's a common thread that we've heard. Just any tool or modality you use to thine own self, you know, be very aware and true. Okay, so Candice actually just texted me. I wasn't lying, guys, when I said she's like in on this and has all the questions. So she's curious and I am too, you she's asked it. Candice is a neogram five and I'm an an an an an an an an an an an an an

And she and I are friends as well as podcast partners in crime. And we have known each other for three years now, three and a half years. So what would you say our compatibility is or like dynamics for us to be aware of so we can work even better together? Okay, so well, and I don't know the two of you personally, so I'll be very careful and just kind of general speak of those two types, those traits.

A type eight, as I mentioned, tends to jump into action and a type five is going to be very thoughtful. So an eight tends to just kind of, hey, I said what I said, take it or leave it. It's kind of on you to handle that. Whereas a five, before anything comes out of their mouth, they're going to have thought about it. They're going to have done the research, analyze it. And so whatever they say, they don't talk a lot, but when they talk,

It is very thoughtful. And so that can be a great duo, whether it's podcast hosts or business partners, because you kind of, I'm say balance, but certain situations require different energies. And so you can kind of, one person can take the lead because you have that strength and you can kind of push each other or maybe pull each other back when needed. Type eight,

And again, I'm not saying… No, I'm not going to take a person. I love information. It's all good here. Tend to be a little bit more emotional. Just a little. Have some emotional intensity. And eight would say, gosh, I'm not mad or angry. am just incredibly passionate about this topic.

And so other people are going to experience them as maybe dominating the conversation, maybe a little intimidating, and they're saying, well, I'm just really intense because I feel strongly about this. Whereas a five may get overwhelmed by that eight's intensity because they're a little bit slower to process information. They're a little bit, they're not going to be as emotionally

They tend, yes, they tend to be very not, I'm not super mad. I'm not super happy expressive wise. And that can be incredibly calming in a chaotic situation to have that steady like groundedness. On the other side of that though, it can feel incredibly exciting to be led by a type eight.

leader who is passionate and who is incredibly confident and decisive. don't know, you know, I'm not going to look at all the numbers necessarily. I just have this gut instinct that this is what we need to do. And a type five is going to want to slow it down a little bit and go through the numbers, do the analysis. Again, they bring great things to one another. And there could also be some friction points because of those different lenses.

It's us guys. It's me. It's me. It's Candice. I mean, I, I see it play out and I see us also kind of toggling between the two as well, because I feel like I've learned a lot from observing Candice and how she conducts herself in business. And just as we've gotten to know each other as friends, but, yeah, the don't show me the data. I'm just going to go off my gut. And then Candice saying she wants the receipts and then we'll make a decision, but it's

It's good because we come to an agreement and we can both, we're both able to express our different viewpoints without taking it personally. And I wonder when you work with teams, because you do this all over the country, how do you see this show up and help teams like when they start to understand their verb and how they show up? How does that help them at work in the workplace?

You know, it can impact everything from giving feedback to somebody to group projects. How do we start a project? How do we brainstorm together? How does my leadership style impact my team and their effectiveness? How do we work with other departments and cross collaborate? be something that just happened with a group that I did last week.

did one group one day, the one group another day, and then the third day, they kind of came together on their own and had a conversation about their different team dynamic and team maps. so it's, I mean, it can be as simple as somebody who is typically using striving to feel connected. Relationships are really important. Rapport building is really important. Somebody who operates as a type three.

I'm striving to feel outstanding. Efficiency is a core piece. Probably a type eight would also relate to this. I do a little, yeah. Where it's like, this could have been an email instead of a meeting. Yeah. To kind of get to the point. say too, like our threes struggle probably the most inside of team trainings because it's, how does this have anything to do directly with my goal? Like this feels like I'm slowing down because I've had so

Efficiency is really important. So they're not going to spend a lot of, how are you? How was your vacation? Tell me about your family. And so it could just be as simple as, okay, as a two, I know my tendency is to do the, how are you? Let's talk about our weekend. And I'm going into this meeting with my boss or my coworker and they want to get straight to it. So let me bring my bullet points and meet them there. Whereas a three can remember, okay, I got this.

I got my two teammates coming in. me just add in 15 minutes to this meeting so that I don't feel rushed. I don't feel like we're getting off track. And the first 15 minutes is going to be talking about our weekends. And I'm going to put the hi, how are you in my email to them. And you might just jump into what you need to your type three or type eight teammate. So again, not always, but just even little things like

communicating and understanding what's my tendency and how does that impact them? Yeah, I think one thing Candice and I do have in common is that we are not fans of small talk. The surface level, just we like to go deep, which is why we love having a podcast and being able to ask experts like you about your your area of expertise. What would you say?

If somebody's listening in and if they're a team of two or 20, you know, we have a lot of real estate and mortgage professionals in our community and the clever crew. What are some signs or symptoms of communication breakdowns that you see that could be supported by your, you the work that you do with a neogram MBA?

I think the most common one by far is around a teammate being perceived as negative. So this happens a lot to our type six teammates who are seen as complaining, as being the Debbie Downer, the devil's advocate, the skeptic. And they would say, just don't want to, you know, lot of people are leap in the net will appear. And they are the people that are thinking, wait a minute,

like, we have a parachute just in case? Like, do we actually have a net below? And they're asking these really important questions, but seem like they're popping the balloons of all the exciting ideas of people who want to go far and move fast. And so that is a point of friction. And once you understand, I actually had a sales team that had a, I'm putting in air quotes, had a problem teammate. On a team full of sevens and eights and threes.

And he was the lone problem person, always complaining, right? Or that's what they thought. And he felt completely dismissed and misunderstood and come to find out, it's like, my gosh, this guy actually really cares about our team. And he's asking these hard questions, not from a place of negativity, but from a place of care for our team and our organization and our clients. And we need somebody like that.

on our team to ask those hard questions, to slow us down a little bit. And so that comes up most often. There's others, but that's the most ones. We're all excited and want to jump into it. And then we got this person slowing us down with their questions. Yeah. Do you, this brings to mind another...

question that's in follow up to this. Do you tend to see different types and not to stereotype, not to generalize, of course, because everybody is individual, but do you tend to see certain enneagram types in certain roles or professions or industries? Like what patterns have you seen there? I'm just personally curious. So I do a lot of work with corporate clients, whereas your groups are probably going to have a little bit more time freedom, flexibility, that

that sort of thing. And so the types I see the least amount of are fours, striving to feel unique, fives and sevens, freedom, flexibility. And so it makes sense that the typical kind of eight to five, nine to six, whatever workday for some of those types, it's like, that makes sense why I wouldn't see a lot of them. I see sevens to be very entrepreneurial or leading a new

department inside a large organization, something that kind of gives them something new. Like that newness and initiative. Exciting. Yes. Okay. We got a new project. mean, threes and eights just tend to gravitate towards leadership positions. So when I do executive teams, it makes sense that half the group, if not more, is usually a three or an eight, sometimes ones.

Two supportive roles, they tend to prefer being behind the scenes, shining when other people shine. And so they can make wonderful, powerfully influential leaders just in a different kind of powerful, influential way. But typically they prefer that kind of chief of staff role rather than the president in the spotlight type of role. I'll see fours in

graphic design or the creative department, sevens, eights, or I'm sorry, sevens, fours might be more marketing sales. I will say, again, just kind of dialing into your strengths and understanding because I worked with a, gosh, a county group last summer and it was full of judges, police officers.

And there was a judge. Oh boy. Yeah. And there was a judge. And for those that know the Enneagram, I mean, me, even I am guilty of stereotypes. I'm thinking, oh, know, type one, right and wrong, law and order, black and white, what's the rules? So I'm like, okay, this judge, probably a one or something, maybe an eight or something. And she said, you know, I'm definitely a seven. And I thought, oh wow, out of all the types, wouldn't have seen

I've that because sevens love flexibility and not following the rules. But what she said is that even though I'm in this role, my strengths are painting a picture of possibility for this person who just spent the evening in prison. And I want to say that this is the start of your new life, the next chapter. And so was a very hopeful, inspiring message.

Hopefully I don't ever get arrested, but if I did, I'd want Yeah, not going to be like, where's the wood? I'm going to just like right here. So any type can kind of be anything. And it is interesting to see how people bring out their strengths in the different roles that they're in. I don't know if that answered your question No, it does. It's always a complex and layered answer.

I'm curious, because one thing that we've noticed, Candice and I, about our work is that, and we say this to our clients too, you are the same person when the camera's rolling and when the camera's not rolling. business is personal, and we bring a lot of who we are to what we do. And so I'm curious for you, Sarah, A, what is your enneagram verb or show up? how have you used it over the years as you've grown in your own life to help you?

see myself most of the type seven striving to feel excited. And typically, you know that you have landed on your type when it's the one that you just really do not want to be. It's like all the things that bother you. You're like, you don't know me. I felt that way when I got my result too. was like, I'm not this crazy power person. And then I'm like.

Wait. Wait. yeah. that's typically, it's like if you love your type at first, it's like you may not have the right type. Great, checked. Yeah, great, great, like kind of test right there. And I have used it and continue to kind of dial in. And, you know, not that I can't lay out policies and procedures and

I struggle with that though. That is not a natural thing that my mind just naturally thinks about and then is easy for me to do. It takes a lot of energy and a lot of sometimes force to do the things that you have to do to run a business or to serve your clients that require policies, procedures, that sort of thing. And so what I've had to do is change the story that

being more organized, having more processes and structure in place will actually allow me to be more excited and to have more freedom rather than trying to be somebody else that's changing that narrative. And my whole job is to travel to these clients. So two to three times a month, sometimes more, sometimes less, I get to meet new people and I get to go to a new place.

and somebody who loves doing new things, exciting adventures, you know, that's perfect. So that really fills that bucket. Whereas, you know, five years ago, I was doing a lot of things via Zoom, one-on-one, virtual groups, which we still do a little bit of that, but now it's group work and typically it's in person.

And so just that little thing I've noticed about myself and the question is, okay, how can I do more of that? And then the stuff that I have to do that I don't necessarily love to do, it's how can I reframe that story that I'm telling myself about what it means to be structured and organized and actually align it with feeling more excited? I think that's a really valuable call out because there are...

there are pros and cons to everything. There's a light side, a shadow side, there's strengths and there's opportunities to improve, but it's all in how you frame it because it's not going to change. So you have to be the one to kind of like change that story, like you said. I really like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if you would relate to this or not, Kat, but one of the

opportunities for growth for an A is to tap into one of their connecting points at the two, which is interesting that you and Candice are connected. I don't know if you've seen the Enneagram diagram. So you have your type and then each type is connected to two other types. So yours is the five and then the two. And two, striving to feel connected, that can feel really vulnerable sometimes. And so the story for an A is how can actually opening myself up.

and having, you know, allowing people into my inner circle actually make me more powerful rather than keeping people at a distance and feeling powerful that way. So that tends to be an opportunity for growth for eight set times. No, that resonates with me. Like I'm a very, I like to think of myself as a very open person, but there have been times where

my default in situations is to trust or maybe not quite trust, but definitely verify. And until things are verified, I do not open up right away. so just trying to not immediately get into that defensive stance is something I've noticed about myself, particularly in the last few months. So very timely, Sarah. Thank you for that reflection. Yeah. Wait, let's talk about the connection point. So

with the Enneagram diagram itself. So eight, five, and two are connected, Candace and I in partnership. I wonder if Corinne, our producer, is a two. That would be really funny. that would be funny, Corinne, if you're listening, please go take the test. And so what would you say, Sarah, like connection points? Like how does that teach us more about ourselves? So the model that we follow says that there tends to be one of your connection points you misuse.

And then one you tend to neglect. And the one that you neglect, unfortunately, is typically the one that you want to tap most into that has your biggest bang for the buck in the beginning when it comes to your growth path. let's do Candace, for example. We'll pick on her since she's not here. So her as a type five, her connecting points are the eight. And then the other one is the type seven, starting me to feel excited.

So as a five, fives, and again, not saying this is Candace, but fives have a tendency to misuse, striving to feel excited when they pair it with their type five energy. And so that can almost look like mad scientist energy, like with all the data and the analysis, and I get kind of hyperactive and I over or misuse that at times.

There's actually a lot of good though that I can pull out of that. But the one that I neglect the most as a five is striving to feel powerful because I'm over here kind of withdrawn. I'm thinking things through, striving to feel powerful, taking action. I'm going to resist that a little bit. That kind of goes into conflict of my natural default. But there's a lot of opportunity for growth for our fives to step out of their heads, come into their bodies.

take action, be a little bit more gut trusting, be a little bit more action oriented, be a little bit more bold and decisive. And yes, don't recklessly go through life not looking at any numbers, but are there opportunities where you're over relying on those numbers and not trusting yourself? And so that's the growth arrow for the growth guidance for the five. thank you, Corinne. Okay, you're a one. Okay, so we're going to talk about Corinne next. Okay, okay.

so with knowing Candice and I know clever crew you listening in, she's shared this many times. Like one of the things she's helped me do and talks about in her morning routine is going outside and moving your body and taking, know, taking her dog sugar for a walk and just like getting outdoors and like the things that you're mentioning that can help a five evolve. Like I see Candace doing those things. So that's really cool to like know that, you know,

She's on a, I mean, obviously she's on a good path. Like we're in, we're in great places, but it's like just those little tactical things that, you know, you can do for your type that really do help support you evolving. That's exciting to see. Yeah. A lot of times you're the five people in your life. You won't, they may seem, and this is kind of the stereotypical, you might not feel their engagement and you might almost think, gosh, this person's really, a loop.

or they're not engaged in this meeting or this conversation that they're having, but a five will tell you, I am. It's just, it's happening all up in my head. And so something else that a five can do as a teammate, as a leader is just to say, I'm with you. I'm just, I'm taking notes or I'm paying attention. I hear everything that you're saying. I'm just taking it in and thinking and just kind of verbalizing what is happening in your head.

can be incredibly helpful for somebody who is like, I can't read your face. You don't have any emotional expressions. Like what's going on? That can be a little tip too. But I love hearing what Candice is already doing. Well, both of our faces have subtitles. So we've never had that problem. We're always able to read people, read each other pretty well. Okay. Well, one quick tip then knowing that Corinne, our producer, because we're a team of three here and not nice clever is a one.

What can Candice and I as five and eights do to support Corinne as a one?

Okay, so the ones that really value plans and knowing what to expect and so having agendas or, I want to talk to you real quick. Well, like about what? Because I want to be prepared and I want to know what to expect.

being on time. mean, little things like being on time and then recognizing that they have a, their operating system is towards making things better. Like this is good, but it could be great. And on the receiving end of that at times, that can feel critical or it can feel like, well, this is good enough. Like, let's just move on and let it go.

And recognizing and appreciating that desire for excellence in a one and appreciating it and verbalizing that you appreciate it. Sometimes we'll do Marvel characters and Captain America is the type one. He's kind of the ultimate type one out there. Making the world better, not just typo, looking for grammars and typos, but how can I be better? How can the world be better? And how can I help towards those things?

I mean, Corinne keeps us on track with plans, guys, analytics, all of that. So we're very grateful for you, Corinne. This is so fun to learn about teams and cohesion. It's amazing. Yeah, it is. It is. it's like, what I hear from groups is that they'll say, this is like a new language. now when we bring another team into a training, it's like now we can talk the same.

language and we just have, it just expands your insight and perspective on yourself and someone else. And speaking of a new language, you know, our pillars here at Not Nice Clever are branding, marketing, money, and manifesting. And you've mentioned that you can help clients work there or leverage their Enneagram in their branding and their marketing. And I've never seen anybody do that or say that. So I'm really curious, like, what's, how do you approach that? Like, what does that look like?

Okay, so now we're going to kind of get into the second layer of the Enneagram. And you can kind of teach it either way, but the model that we follow is awareness to action Enneagram. And they say we have nine strategies and then we have three instinctual biases. these are short and sweet because there's only three, so that's easy to remember. And it's really clear

in that branding, networking, marketing, kind of where each fit. And then it also gives some guidance that says, if this is the one that resonates with you the most, this is what you should lean into, and this is where you might struggle. So the three instinctual biases are, is one is preserving, and this is you're focused on the nuts and bolts. It sounds a lot like a one, maybe a six processes, procedures.

And so when you overlay your Enneagram type, you might either really be the stereotypical, in this case, type six, or if you overlay a seven with this preserving energy, that person's gonna express that excitement, striving to feel excitement a lot differently than another type. The second instinctual bias is navigating. They're really focused on the group dynamics, very aware of social cues,

what people, the hierarchy, role clarity, and then the last one is transmitting energy where I want to make a dent in the universe. I want to leave a legacy. I'm going to be, I'm going to kind of throw caution to the wind for the sake of my legacy and I want to go big and I'm going to dress to impress and I want to be noticed. And so when you think about your marketing and branding strategy, typically people

are gonna resonate with one of these, either the transmitter, I'm YouTube videos, let me be all the podcast guests, let me get on stage. But what I might struggle with as somebody who leads with this is my ability to navigate group dynamics because I'm a little focused on that legacy that I'm gonna leave.

I lose touch of like the group and I might be off putting to some people because it might seem I'm too focused on myself. So how can you bring others along with you? Somebody who is really focused on navigating, they're going to be really focused on the group and understanding where do I fit into this networking group? Where do I fit into, you know, I can absolutely transmit but for the sake of navigating. And so,

They're going to focus on the nuts and bolts though, it's getting a schedule, sticking to a schedule. So, hey, I may be doing my YouTube, I may be doing my podcast, but I'm going to struggle with sticking to it, which is a really important part of marketing, branding, continuing to stay out there. Yes. And then the preserving, it's going to have a great schedule, going to have a great outline for every single podcast episode that they're thinking about doing.

going to have all those kind of nuts and bolts. They're going to have the mic that works the best, you all those nuts and bolts pieces, but they're going to struggle with the transmitting piece, the putting themselves out there, connect. Yes. Yes. And so, it's important to understand kind of where you are to, so that you can lean more into those strengths. Cause I think when people start to learn about these, it's like, I didn't realize that I was

really good at this or this was like a thing. So lean more into that and also just be aware of what obstacles you're probably going to run into based on the one that you're strongest at and the one that you might struggle the most with. I'm just reflecting on myself and Candace and our dynamic together. And I definitely resonated with the navigating.

And I won't assume what she'll resonate with, but I'm going to ask her as soon as we hop off here. wondering if like, cause we both speak on stage, we both do workshops, keynotes, all that stuff. then, but I feel like one of our strengths is just being very hyper aware of the environment, which is what makes me love workshops because workshops, you do workshops. It's like you are getting in there, you're rolling up your sleeves, you're getting many people to move as one. And it's really,

cool to see that in person. It will be interesting to hear where she lands because sometimes that is why different types can be incredibly compatible because under the surface, they're both navigators or under the surface, they're both observers. And so they're kind of jive in on that level. So much information. I feel like we just like scratched the surface here today.

Yeah, and it is. It's just, you know, whether it's the second dimension or some other personality type or therapy or, whatever, it is just always really interesting to get a different angle of how you show up and also appreciate the strengths that you have and get a different angle of the person that you work next to. Your listeners,

may not know the type of their clients or prospects or leads, but when you start to understand, not just your type, but the other types, you can start to say, okay, this person speaks really slowly. They're gonna need some more time before they make a decision. It says like, sometimes it says surface level as just paying attention and okay, I tend to...

make decisions really quickly and I confident in them and other people need to mull it over for a week. Or they're worried about safety and security of the neighborhood or this person's really excited about how they're going to decorate the house and your, your listeners probably already do that when they're talking to different people, the, the length, the diagram just kind of assigns some language to what they're probably already doing.

And thank you for that, for sharing that with our clever crew. Before we get to one of my favorite segments of the episode, Not Nice Advice, would you be able to share, like, what are some free ways or some initial steps that anyone listening can take with either a neogram, MBA, or your social media content? Like, where would be a good place for somebody to start if today really kind of caught their attention? If they are interested in finding

their type, they're like, I have no idea what is this. You can Google to question an enneagram test and it is literally two questions and you can find your type. typically it gets pretty close. The enneagram is a self-identification process and so sometimes it takes a while to really start to see yourself clearly to kind of understand the type and what it means to you. So tests are 100 % accurate.

accurate, but they can be 60-70. And that assessment, the two question test is really quick. It's from the Enneagram Institute authors who wrote the book, kind of the big blue book on the Enneagram. So you can check that out. And then if you know your type and you want to learn a little bit more about the Enneagram,

We have a podcast called the Any Grammar at Work and it's how to use your type and understand those that you work with. So I'll recommend that podcast. We've got podcast listeners, I guess, tuning in here. So I'll offer another podcast. I mean, the logic would follow, yes. We'll definitely put all of that information in the show notes. You know, guys, as an aid, I love a two question assessment. So that is just absolutely amazing.

All right, Sarah. So we've come to our not nice advice segment of the show. We had one of our listeners write in a question for you and you have full permission to be not nice with your response and just give them the tough love or speak from the heart, whatever they need to hear. So are you ready for it? Okay. So this is from Micro Manager in recovery. She says, I just hired a new assistant. She's smart, totally capable, and I want this to work out.

But I can already feel myself getting frustrated over the littlest things. I move really fast and I want her to just take it and like do it. And she seems to need a lot of direction and reassurance before making moves. And I'm starting to feel like I have to hold her hand through everything. How can I fix this? Signed micromanager in recovery. Okay. So I don't know this person's type at all, obviously. I'm hearing her say though is a lot of struggles.

are a lot of struggles of the Enneagram type three, whose biggest challenge, especially in leadership, is around delegating. And a lot of times it's because I can do it faster and I can do it better. And so I'm just gonna do it and I will get frustrated at slowing down to teach you how to do it. It will feel like slowing down.

And so one piece of advice that I would offer is again, to change that narrative that slowing down to explain things, slowing down to allow them to figure things out for themselves, allowing them to make a mistake might actually allow you to go faster in the long run.

And then they just may be somebody who needs time to process and probably is not moving as fast as you were thinking as fast as you, but they probably bring some other gifts like attention to detail or precision potentially, or, know, and so finding out what are those other strengths that they're bringing to the table.

that may not be speed, but there's probably something else. And how can you look for ways to appreciate those or to tap more into those? So it's kind of self-awareness, knowing your perspective on things and where you're going to get frustrated and then that other's awareness piece. And I am just casually taking notes because I identify very much with micromanager in recovery.

One of my favorite phrases as I have learned and grown in my entrepreneurial journey is slow down to speed up and not just like speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, Yeah. When we do executive leadership teams, every type three leader will struggle with delegation because the reason why I'm in

the success that I'm having is because of how fast and how good I was doing what I did. And now you're asking me to let that go and give it off to somebody who's probably not gonna do it as well as me right now and who's definitely not gonna do it as fast as me. And that can be such a push-pull. And so it is exactly reframing it to what your mantra is. Clever crew, if you're a three, we see you and there is a way forward. Good news.

All right. Well, those are all the questions we had today for you, Sarah. I really appreciate you making the time for our clever crew. And before we hop off, tell them where can they hang out with you online? How can they connect with you best? I'm to say over on Instagram, we do some fun stats about Enneagram and the workplace teams, Enneagram type. So connect with us over there at Enneagram MBA on Instagram.

Thank you so much, Sarah. I really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us on Not Nice, Clever. Remember to follow Not Nice, Clever wherever you listen to audio. And if you haven't already, drop that five star review. Share your takeaways. Tell us your story. We love to hear it. Signing off, you're not so nice, but oh so clever besties that mean business. See you soon.